Full Transcript for Exploring Freedom through Horror featuring Michelle McGill-Vargas

always so great and refreshing chatting with authors from the Midwest. 00:05:19.120 --> 00:05:26.879 Me being from the Midwest originally, I'm originally from Detroit, and I actually have family based where Michelle grew up. 00:05:27.120 --> 00:05:31.120 It's so interesting how much I am still learning. 00:05:31.279 --> 00:05:40.720 Like I didn't realize there was a German immigrant population in that area of Indiana until reading Michelle's book and talking with her about it. 00:05:41.040 --> 00:05:46.160 I didn't learn about the industries that were in Indiana until that point. 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:54.399 And I also didn't know about the particular pattern of the great migration that landed in Indiana. 00:05:54.480 --> 00:06:02.720 Because I was just like, how can you get a character to move from Georgia to Indiana during that time period? 00:06:02.959 --> 00:06:15.680 And Michelle, through research and a creative imagination and also just lived experience and being originally from a place where the book is set is able to really take us there in such a beautiful way. 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:23.040 There's so much as all of my interviews, there's so much to really appreciate about this particular one. 00:06:23.759 --> 00:06:40.000 One, in terms of how Michelle talks about and uses research and creative license pretty equally, I love, I love, love, love, love how much she gave herself permission to just go there. 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:52.319 And as you heard in the little intro that I had at the beginning of this episode, giving yourself permission to not put yourself in a box is so important. 00:06:52.720 --> 00:07:04.000 Ironically, as I am editing her episode and getting caught up on the rest of the season as I'm getting ready to launch season seven, I was able to return back to my own writing. 00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:11.759 And one of the things that I am so grateful to Michelle for is the permission to really be free off the page. 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:23.120 Just because I am a black woman with so many marginalized identities, it should not be expected of me to always explore social issues in my writing. 00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:26.319 I do it in my poetry, I do it in my playwriting. 00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:28.720 I'm now exploring short story and fiction. 00:07:28.879 --> 00:07:35.360 I kind of want some freedom there, especially given what the world of fiction can do for us. 00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:39.759 So, Michelle, if and when you're listening, thank you. 00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:41.439 Thank you for that permission. 00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:49.519 And thank you for reminding me how my own creative license can inform my work. 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:56.000 Thank you so much for listening to today's episode, and I hope that you'll enjoy our conversation as much as I did. 00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:13.120 Hello. 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:18.879 All right, so what I'm gonna be doing is reading from the first chapter. 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:20.160 It's

not that long. 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:25.680 Um, so I'll start off with that one because you'll catch them in the first chapters like why bother. 00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:28.240 Yes, happy reading, and I'll be back to chat. 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:29.120 All right. 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:31.680 Chapter one. 00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:34.639 I can't kill somebody who's already dead. 00:08:34.879 --> 00:08:38.080 That's what I told them white folks sitting out there judging me. 00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:40.000 Of course they didn't believe me. 00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:45.519 For months they saw Simone walking and talking like a real living person, but she wasn't. 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:46.960 Wasn't living at all. 00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:54.639 Her heart didn't beat none, and if they paid close attention, they noticed she never took a breath and barely rarely blinked them baby blues of hers. 00:08:54.879 --> 00:08:56.720 No, Simone wasn't one of us. 00:08:56.879 --> 00:08:58.399 But none of that mattered now. 00:08:59.039 --> 00:09:04.320 All they saw was me, some colored woman standing over what they thought was Simone's freshly dead body. 00:09:04.639 --> 00:09:08.399 Hell, ain't been three years since old Uncle Abe freed me and my ilk. 00:09:08.559 --> 00:09:17.360 But here I am, shackled again, except this time I'm in an Indiana jail, waiting for my date with the Haman's news for supposedly killing a dead woman. 00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:20.000 What are you going on about, Lavinia? 00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:25.120 I flinch at the jailer's familiar use of my name, like he knows me. 00:09:25.279 --> 00:09:30.559 I fought hard for my name, but hearing it come out of his mouth is like sticker bugs scraping against my legs. 00:09:30.799 --> 00:09:34.879 Reminds me of how getting familiar with the wrong folks got me into this mess. 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:38.080 Martin, the jailer, makes his way to my cell. 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:41.120 I doubt he can hear me over all the shouting outside. 00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:46.240 I can't make out the words, but I ain't gotta guess the whole town's out there demanding my head. 00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:50.960 Martin turns his ear toward the noise, snorts quietly, then smiles. 00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:59.120 Even though it's late in the afternoon, the July heat has him sweating like a fool, and I can smell the tobacco plugs steeping in his mouth. 00:09:59.440 --> 00:10:06.000 The whole jail ain't that big, just two side-by-side cells, each barely large enough to hold a cot and a pot. 00:10:06.320 --> 00:10:11.279 Takes Martin only a few strides across the wooden floor to get to me from his desk. 00:10:11.679 --> 00:10:17.200 His hand grips a battered tin cup for collecting shots of muddy juice from his stained mouth. 00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:22.240 He shifts the mound around in his jaws before settling on a comfortable corner in his cheek. 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:29.360 Then he leans against the bars of my cell, spits a glob into the cup, and licks brown dribble from his bottom lip. 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:31.600 What did you think was going to happen? 00:10:31.759 --> 00:10:33.279 You killed a white woman. 00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:37.519 She was dead, I say loud enough for him to hear, despite the noise. 00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:38.799 Of course she's dead. 00:10:38.960 --> 00:10:39.759 You killed her. 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:43.120 Martin removes his hat and scratches his thinning gray hair. 00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:45.200 He spits into the cup again. 00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:49.679 I regard my hastily bandaged forearm and cover the bindings with my hand. 00:10:49.919 --> 00:10:53.679 I ain't killed nobody, I say, knowing it's only technically true. 00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:54.559 Don't matter. 00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:57.440 Y'all gonna hate me no matter how many times I say it. 00:10:57.759 --> 00:10:59.600 We found you with the body. 00:10:59.840 --> 00:11:02.000 You act like I was the only one out there. 00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:06.000 I place a finger to my lips and glance at the corrugated tin ceiling. 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:09.279 Oh wait, I was the only one out there. 00:11:09.679 --> 00:11:15.279 This has nothing to do with you being colored, Martin says, shocked that the accusation came from my mouth. 00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:16.320 Doesn't it? 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:20.159 The whole neighborhood was outside and there wasn't a mark on Simone. 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:26.320 Yet everybody somehow came to the conclusion that out of all them people out there, I was the one who killed her. 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:26.960 But sure. 00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:29.519 It ain't got nothing to do with me being colored. 00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:30.639 It doesn't. 00:11:30.799 --> 00:11:32.879 I got no ill will toward you people. 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:35.519 And Miss Arsenal treated you just fine. 00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:37.440 Why would you go and do such a thing? 00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:40.399 I told you I didn't kill her, right? 00:11:40.639 --> 00:11:41.840 Because she was already dead. 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:42.799 She was. 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:45.679 Then under my breath I add, you'll see. 00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:48.960 Don't be surprised when she shows up tonight and busts me out of here. 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:54.559 Loud thumps rained against the jail from all sides, causing both of us to jump. 00:11:54.799 --> 00:12:02.240 Martin hurries to the door and cracks it just enough for several stones, clumps of dirt, and louder threats to make their way inside. 00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:06.000 I test the strength of the metal bars of my cell with my body. 00:12:06.159 --> 00:12:08.960 They ought to keep me safe in here for a time. 00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:14.000 As fast as this town turned on me, I wouldn't put it past Martin to hand them the keys. 00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:19.200 He finally gets enough sense to shut the door once a few of these those rocks knock him back. 00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:21.440 And here

we thought you were different. 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:24.559 Martin closes his eyes and shakes his head. 00:12:24.799 --> 00:12:31.759 If you only knew how different I really was, I mutter, noticing a thin red line emerging on the bandage around my arm. 00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:36.559 All that jostling getting me here from the courthouse must have got it bleeding again. 00:12:36.879 --> 00:12:40.639 Martin sighs and tilts his head as if he's tired of hearing me talk. 00:12:40.879 --> 00:12:43.120 If you only knew how different I really was. 00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:45.360 Now, what's that supposed to mean, Lavinia? 00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:47.039 I'm a ghoul. 00:12:47.200 --> 00:12:48.399 Or at least I was one. 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:49.600 A what now? 00:12:49.840 --> 00:12:54.000 A ghoul, I say, surprised by the wave of sadness that hits me. 00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:58.639 I stroke my injured arm, remembering how at first I hated being a ghoul. 00:12:58.960 --> 00:13:04.399 But now, with only Martin standing between me and that mob, I get anything to be one again. 00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:10.320 The constable bursts in, and for the first time I hear only a few voices shouting my name. 00:13:10.639 --> 00:13:14.480 Damn fools, he says as he slaps a set of keys onto his desk. 00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:16.399 All that hollering for what? 00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:18.720 As if I understand anything they're saying. 00:13:18.879 --> 00:13:22.159 You think if folks want something that bad, they tell you in English. 00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:25.679 These Germans sure love a hanging, Martin says with a smile. 00:13:25.919 --> 00:13:30.000 You get 'em calm, boss for now, and let's keep it that way. 00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:31.360 No drinking tonight. 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:33.360 You think he can handle that this time? 00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:35.279 Martin's face falls. 00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:37.440 Then he notices that I notice. 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:40.960 He adjusts his pants and then sidles over to the constable. 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:43.919 Ain't nothing but the grace of God gonna keep her safe. 00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:46.240 He lowers his voice while staring at me. 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:47.840 She killed a white woman. 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:50.240 I ain't killed nobody, I remind them. 00:13:50.799 --> 00:14:00.879 Had you not gotten so stinking drunk, the constable continues as he reaches for the door handle, they wouldn't have gotten inside and strung up the last fella we had in here, and he turned out to be innocent. 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:02.480 What do you want me to do, boss? 00:14:02.639 --> 00:14:04.399 I'm one man against the whole town. 00:14:04.639 --> 00:14:06.480 You've got a badge and a gun. 00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:07.519 Use them. 00:14:07.759 --> 00:14:10.559 He listens at the door before opening it and swears. 00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:13.440 Look, Martin, mind the door this time, will ya? 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:15.919 Somebody's going to Hammond and Change tomorrow morning. 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:20.559 If I come back and find her dead because you couldn't keep your eyes open, I'll settle for you. 00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:27.279 And with that, he leaves me at the mercy of an armed drunk and a town itching for a neck part, necktie party. 00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:30.960 Martin mumbles something as he wears a path in the middle of the floor. 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:33.279 Then he finds his way back to my cell. 00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:35.200 What were you saying earlier? 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:39.120 He spits out, brows all crinkled together, like I'm the reason he's mad. 00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:41.200 I didn't kill, no, not that. 00:14:41.519 --> 00:14:42.000 Ghoul. 00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:43.440 What the hell is a ghoul? 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:46.159 Some fancy French word Miss Arsenal taught you? 00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:48.240 I raise an eyebrow. 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:50.559 If he's talking, he ain't drinking. 00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:56.399 And if he ain't drinking, I just might survive long enough for the constable to get me on the train out of this town. 00:14:56.639 --> 00:14:59.840 Not like the law and hammer will believe me any more than these two. 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:04.799 But swinging from a tree for something I didn't even do ain't how I want my story to end. 00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:10.960 And even though I owe Simone a good skinning for what she did to me in the end, I sure hope she ain't dead, dead. 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:13.840 Could use a little help getting out of here with nightfalls. 00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:16.639 I gently press down on my bandage. 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:18.240 More crimson blooms. 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:19.840 You really want to know? 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:21.120 He shrugs. 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:23.279 Nobody here but me and you. 00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:26.080 He takes out a pocket watch and checks the time. 00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:30.639 Be a couple of hours before the constable gets back from the post office to send that wire. 00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:34.159 And the Michigan Central won't be by till morning to carry you to Hammond. 00:15:34.480 --> 00:15:36.240 A story will keep me occupied. 00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:41.600 He spits the entire wad of tobacco into the tin cup and wipes his mouth on his sleeve. 00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:45.600 I sigh and sink down onto the earthen floor of my cell. 00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:51.600 This jail reminds me of the sod dugout me and Simone lived in when we first arrived here last fall. 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:54.159 The cave, as we called it, was dark. 00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:59.120 Had to be for Simone's sake, with only a door to let in a few rays of sunlight. 00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:03.279 This jail got one door and a tiny window in each of the two cells. 00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:08.000 The wood along the bottom of the walls is worn away or has been chewed by vermin. 00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:12.720 I quickly climb onto the lint onto the

thin straw-filled mattress on the cot. 00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:15.279 You gonna tell me the story of what? 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:19.759 Martin opens the drawer of his desk and takes out an oval pewter flask. 00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:23.679 He shakes it, and I hear I can hear liquid sloshing around. 00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:24.639 Shit. 00:16:25.279 --> 00:16:27.600 But he approaches the cell and hands it to me. 00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:30.639 I narrow my eyes at him before taking the flask. 00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:33.039 I unscrew the lid and sniff. 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:38.559 Not that it matters that if it's poison or that it smells like tobacco in stale breath. 00:16:38.799 --> 00:16:42.960 I pour a swig into my mouth without letting the rim touch my lips. 00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:48.080 Martin's always jawn on tobacco, so I don't doubt the stuff is crusted all over the top of it. 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:51.360 The whiskey warms my innards and my shoulders lower. 00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:55.360 For a second, I don't even feel the throbbing and pain in my arm. 00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:57.279 Didn't know I was that tense. 00:16:57.840 --> 00:16:59.120 You really want to hear it? 00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:00.000 I ask. 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:02.320 I already said yes, didn't I? 00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:05.599 A smile crawls across my face. 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:09.599 He ain't ready for this story, but I got nothing else to do. 00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:12.000 You ever heard of vampires? 00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:14.799 And that's the end of chapter one. 00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:17.200 Yes. 00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:27.839 So one of the things that I want to say on air that I'm glad I had an opportunity to tell you, Michelle, off air is that this book reads very cinematically. 00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:36.000 So film producers and optioners, please pick up this book, read it, because I I can see it as a film. 00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:37.119 I really could. 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:47.359 And I think it's because you're so good with dialogue, like the dialogue doesn't feel because in some fiction, the dialogue doesn't really live off the page. 00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:54.640 And it's like it's there to carry the story, but not necessarily to what's the word I'm looking for? 00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:57.279 You it's for me, it's hard to imagine the dialogue. 00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:00.480 And then also, too, you're so great with details. 00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:05.440 Like I can tell that you have such a great finesse with character development. 00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:06.640 Oh, thank you. 00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:07.519 Yes. 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:21.039 So Ryan Kugler, if you're listening, yes, like please, because this I I see this living off, I really see this living off the page. 00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:22.079 Thank you. 00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:23.440 Yes. 00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:28.160 So the first question I have for you, Michelle, is what is the origin story of American Ghoul? 00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:31.759 Why this title and why this book right now? 00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:41.359 The origin of American Ghoul is not as deep as people think it is when they ask me once they've read the book. 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:42.960 Like I've done a book club and they're just asking. 00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:45.039 I was like, I was not thinking about that at all. 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:46.480 I love horror movies. 00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:48.880 So October, as that's all I watch. 00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:50.960 I don't care, I've watched them a thousand times. 00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:51.920 I'll go all the way. 00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:56.799 You got me in the 1930s watching the original Dracula, all the way until like centers. 00:18:56.880 --> 00:18:58.000 My favorite, I haven't seen that movie. 00:18:58.079 --> 00:18:58.960 I don't know how many times. 00:18:59.039 --> 00:18:59.759 So I love it. 00:18:59.839 --> 00:19:02.480 Every time a horror movie, that's all I watch in October. 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:08.960 So I was watching the original Fright Knight, and the guy at the end, um, what's his name? 00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:10.400 Bobby Cole, something like that. 00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:15.359 But um, you think he's a person, but uh something he's not right because he like melts at the end. 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:21.039 If y'all didn't see the story, it's a spoiler, but it he melts and stuff at the end, so you don't really know what he is, he's not a vampire. 00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:25.359 And I'm like, if he were human and you think about the Renfield character, like why? 00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:32.880 Why would somebody want to like just follow a dead body around and you like watching him eat people and then you gotta like get why would somebody want to do that? 00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:37.920 And so, in my crazy mind, it was somebody had to be in the worst circumstances ever. 00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:48.559 So slavery, worst circumstances ever, that would be a reason that somebody would say, you know what, to get out of here, I'm gonna follow this dead body wherever she's taking me because I need to get up out of here. 00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:50.720 So that's where the story came. 00:19:50.799 --> 00:19:57.839 And it was really just something I was writing for myself because what I really originally wanted to write was like going nowhere. 00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:00.799 So I'm like, okay, fine, I'm just gonna write this story for myself. 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:03.519 I love what you said. 00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:07.519 Like a human in the worst situation ever. 00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:08.880 Slavery. 00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:12.640 And I saw like the reading rainbow pop up. 00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:17.759 Everybody just have one. 00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:20.640 I have a really twisted sense of humor. 00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:31.759 Like I still talk about, and I'm like 90% of the African continent, and I still talk about that cruise ship that our people came

on centuries ago that didn't have a return ticket. 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:43.279 So like I, which funny enough, horror is a genre I'm just getting into. 00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:46.079 So I I do thriller, I don't do horror. 00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:53.759 And now hearing it from this perspective, I'm like, that makes sense. 00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:59.119 Because I do have a question about the unique pairing with Lavinia and Simone. 00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:16.319 And so I'm like, given that this book takes place so close to after emancipation, now I'm like, that's why she's traveling the US with this, with this hussy of a vampire. 00:21:16.559 --> 00:21:21.119 Because that's really the only way that she would be able to travel the country freely. 00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:24.400 So it makes total sense. 00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:28.079 See, this is why I asked you this question off air. 00:21:28.240 --> 00:21:33.119 I was like, I'm like thinking, Michelle, where did you get your MFA in creative writing? 00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:35.119 Like it's just it's not that deep. 00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:37.039 It's not that deep at all. 00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:45.200 It is not, and I love how people like will read stuff like, oh, you know, you're you're tapping into like the you know, the it's not this is not a trauma story. 00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:45.759 It is not. 00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:51.279 I was just having fun a couple of months writing this story, so that's where it came from. 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:53.200 Nice. 00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:55.680 It's that black brilliance shining. 00:21:55.839 --> 00:21:57.039 I'm loving it. 00:21:57.680 --> 00:21:58.319 Yes. 00:21:59.119 --> 00:22:03.839 So This is so just some some context. 00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:09.920 I have a I have a very diverse audience that listens and watches the podcast. 00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:17.440 And then also me, I'm not new to I've been writing now for maybe about like 10 or 12 years. 00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:17.759 Okay. 00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:20.960 And I come from, and I'm still working on getting published. 00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:32.160 I've had a couple of things here and there published, but like I come from the the genres of music and theater and then fell into um into into writing. 00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:37.279 And so I'm still learning a lot, a lot about genres. 00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:43.920 And actually, I this is one of the books I was thinking of recommending to pair with yours. 00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:51.359 I first heard about the genre from this particular author, Psycho Pomp and Circumstance by Eden Royce. 00:22:51.599 --> 00:22:51.759 Okay. 00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:56.880 No vampires in this, but it takes place around the same time period. 00:22:56.960 --> 00:23:04.480 And there's a lot, like the two books, and also um Tracy Cross's books. 00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:08.640 I have them somewhere, but I feel like these books can be read together. 00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:20.319 And also professors, and also I may do this at some point, teach these books together because of what they say about the African-American experience, spirituality. 00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:23.839 Um what's the other word I'm looking for? 00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:32.559 Um, horror, so many things within this particular time period, because they all take place around the Reconstruction era. 00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:44.000 So I would love, and this is where the question is going, because this is the maybe third author I've had on of the genre. 00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:52.079 What is speculative historical fiction and why was this the genre chosen to carry this particular story? 00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:58.799 Well, uh so speculative fiction is they it's kind of like an umbrella term of things. 00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:03.440 So it's it could be fantasy, it could be sci-fi, it could be horror, it could be dystopia. 00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:06.720 So it's it's that umbrella term for it. 00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:11.920 Um, but historical, I really like historical, and I'm from Gary, Indiana. 00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:18.000 I I like I told you, I live like uh two steps away outside of Gary Indian because now I got some money, so I got I'm out. 00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:19.200 But it's I'm not that far. 00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:20.400 But I'm from Gary, Indiana. 00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:24.880 And so when when people hear Gary, it's just like, oh, you live in Gary, oh my God. 00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:26.880 Or they singing some Michael Jackson song, right? 00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:27.759 Like, have you been to the house? 00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:28.640 No, I ain't been to the house. 00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:31.599 I haven't been in this 51 year, I've never driven by the house. 00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:32.160 I have not. 00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:35.839 Not that I don't want to, I love MJ, I just have not driven by the house. 00:24:36.079 --> 00:24:44.240 Um, but with his story, when I started digging into the history of the city, and all it was just like a ton of stuff that you could write about. 00:24:44.319 --> 00:24:46.160 And so just I just really love history. 00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:47.359 I'm a history nerd. 00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:49.039 I will read an encyclopedia. 00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:51.119 Well, back in the day, we won't have encyclopedias no more. 00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:52.079 I told you I'm 51. 00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:55.599 Well, I would read like encyclopedias and things and documentaries. 00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:56.480 I love all that stuff. 00:24:56.559 --> 00:24:58.079 So I like the research. 00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:03.920 Um, and so pairing that together, that's the the 1800s is kind of like a time period that I really kind of like. 00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:09.759 And so just pairing it that way because I've done so much research in that time period. 00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:15.440 And Gary, Indiana didn't exist in 1865, it only came into existence in like 1906. 00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:20.799 So I

could get away with stuff happening and nothing was there, so nobody can say that wasn't there. 00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:22.319 I know it wasn't there, there was nothing there. 00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:24.799 It was sand and beach, that was all that was there. 00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:28.240 So I could just make up as much as I want to with that. 00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:34.000 But I love historicals, and so putting in that context again, wondering who would want to follow a dead body. 00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:36.720 So yeah, they kind of went together with like that. 00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:40.640 Yeah, and thank you for mentioning history. 00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:42.799 Like, so I'll preface this. 00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:44.000 He's in the other room. 00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:47.519 Um, my husband, he's into civil war reenactment. 00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:49.839 He's white, so I gotta put that out there first. 00:25:51.839 --> 00:25:57.119 Even though black people served in the Civil War, the ways that they got there are a little different. 00:25:57.839 --> 00:26:02.480 And I'm slow, like we're both into history, but we're into different time periods. 00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:04.319 I was originally into the Gilded Age. 00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:12.960 And this is another reason why this book I love and why I'm now starting to admire a different genre. 00:26:13.119 --> 00:26:24.160 Because my genre is my genre was memoir and I do plays and poetry, but now I'm like, oh my God, I'm loving the the possibilities of historical and speculative fiction. 00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:37.279 But the the stories that I learned through his experiences of doing Civil War reenactment, and he travels a lot because he actually travels to the sites where these battles happened. 00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:45.759 And hearing the stories, like one of my um favorite trips that we did together, we went to um Manassas, Virginia. 00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:47.759 Uh, is it Virginia or Maryland? 00:26:47.839 --> 00:26:48.319 I can't remember. 00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:53.359 Where Manassas, I know it's by an airport, it's a DC area. 00:26:53.519 --> 00:27:01.920 And I found out I have family connection to the area, and hearing the story of that particular battle and all those things is interesting. 00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:05.920 And also hearing about the land and all these other things. 00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:28.799 And I'm like, I see now why this particular time period, people can tap into authors because yes, we have a lot of documentation, but there's also, especially given that the US um was expanding at that time, we have a lot of possibilities. 00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:47.839 And I'm glad that you mentioned, given that Gary Indiana wasn't found until after the time period of this book, my students, like the other day, asked me this question because we just finished reading a book that is based on a particular um incident, but it doesn't take place during that time period. 00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:50.079

And they're just like, this is so confusing. 00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:50.960 Why is this? 00:27:51.200 --> 00:28:11.519 And I said, I'm not the author, but I suspect that if the author literally said it during the time period where this actually happened, she's going to have to like really take note and accountability to historians because historians are very like, what's the word I'm looking for? 00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:12.799 Just unapologetic. 00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:17.359 Like, for example, my husband doesn't want to go see O'Mary, but I want to go see it. 00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:21.920 So for folks who are familiar, it's the Mary Todd Lincoln satire. 00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:35.359 Um, and so I love the freedom that this period is giving us as African-American writers, even though we were kind of starting to be free at this time. 00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:41.759 But given that a lot of our stories were not documented at this time, it gives us a lot more liberty and a lot more freedom. 00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:46.559 So I can easily see why you were drawn to this particular period. 00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:49.200 That was such a long-winded response for me. 00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:52.400 Yeah. 00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:53.680 No, it is. 00:28:53.759 --> 00:29:00.079 And and and that could be like you can have alternate histories as a kind of speculative fiction, um, speculative fiction too. 00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:06.240 So, like um, a book just came out, Marcus Redmond did uh Blood Slaves, and I did a blurb for that. 00:29:06.400 --> 00:29:19.680 And so I read the book before it came out to do the blurb, and I was like, I have not rooted for folks as hard as I've ever since Black Panther because it was alternate history and it and it it's about I guess this is not a sport, but go read it. 00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:20.640 It was a really good book. 00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:27.359 But um there it's it's not 1800s, but it's during, I want to say 17, late 1700s, maybe. 00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:38.400 And so it was on a slave plantation and it was a slave revolt, but it was started by a vampire who we gonna make other vampires and we're gonna free everybody. 00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:42.319 And so it was those types of alternate histories. 00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:47.599 So that you know, if you're taking liberties with that, that may be the reason why it's like, okay, this is didn't happen. 00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:49.200 It's an alternate history. 00:29:49.839 --> 00:30:00.000 Yes, now see, which folks who are watching, and if you're new to Black Writers Read, you essentially, and I and I hope that y'all get this. 00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:08.240 Y'all are sitting in on a conversation that I'm having with someone to learn and like my free little workshops. 00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:10.559 Like these are free little masterclasses for me. 00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:17.839 Like I learned so much from each author that I try to tie into my own writing, and I'm learning a lot here. 00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:20.720 And again, I can't believe that this is your debut book. 00:30:20.799 --> 00:30:21.440 I just can't. 00:30:21.519 --> 00:30:24.400 Like I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing. 00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:33.680 Like, why don't you it's a no, it's a great thing because, but also you're just such a slick writer and you just know so much. 00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:34.799 So thank you. 00:30:35.119 --> 00:30:38.480 So that's a lot of editorial passes, people. 00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:40.960 It just doesn't fall from the page. 00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:47.440 Because like I was telling Nicole, I'm a panther, like I don't plot, it's just whatever people are saying in my head, that's what kind of goes on the page. 00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:49.279 And if they're not talking, I'm not writing. 00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:52.319 So there's a lot of editorial passes with this. 00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:53.519 Yes. 00:30:55.359 --> 00:31:02.079 So I think I'm gonna I'm gonna skip around some questions. 00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:06.000 Um, so I send for folks, I send questions ahead of time to our guests. 00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:09.119 So American Goal is set after the Civil War. 00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:16.240 For you, what are some advantages and challenges of vampires existing during this time period? 00:31:16.960 --> 00:31:20.799 So, because Dracula does is is 19th century, right? 00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:24.079 But it's like the end of 19th century and it's in England and all that other stuff. 00:31:24.160 --> 00:31:26.880 So you get that whole gothic feel of it. 00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:32.559 Um, but with the Civil War, there were some technological, I guess, advances that were starting this. 00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:33.839 So, like you have photography. 00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:40.000 This was the first time that we got to see the Civil War because um uh I'm gonna say his name wrong, Matthew Gardner. 00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:44.880 I think that's the photographer that did all the photography and you got all those gruesome pictures of the Civil War. 00:31:45.039 --> 00:31:48.640 And um uh there's a mention of that in the story as far as that. 00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:50.799 And then um with transfusions, right? 00:31:50.960 --> 00:31:51.920 Blood transfusions. 00:31:52.079 --> 00:32:00.160 So that was a way for Levinny to kind of explain, oh yeah, she's got issues, she needs a blood because she needs a blood transfusion, right? 00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:01.440 So it's it's that kind of thing. 00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:13.519 So you you get all that new technology that's going on, and you can kind of fold that in historically as far as what that is, and then the technology that we're used to now, you you you kind of got to get out of that mindset. 00:32:13.599 --> 00:32:16.880 Like, no, I can't text somebody and say, get out the house because the vampires come. 00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:20.480 You can't do stuff like that in the 1800s, right? 00:32:20.799 -->

00:32:34.240 And so I like that you're limited by the technology that you have, but then I do like the advancements that you can use to kind of weave in there to help kind of make your story a little bit more real, and then just um just play around with that. 00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:42.240 Which I just got this image because I'm a huge fan of Clara Barton, who was a nurse during the Civil War. 00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:49.680 And I'm like, I'm imagining folks who write vampires during this period, it's like Clara Barton just messed everything up. 00:32:53.519 --> 00:32:54.640 Like, girl, why? 00:32:54.720 --> 00:32:56.160 Why are you doing this? 00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:00.079 Yes. 00:33:00.559 --> 00:33:03.519 So I have a couple of questions about the book itself. 00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:08.799 And I really hope that people from this interview, if you have not already read it, please pick up a copy. 00:33:09.119 --> 00:33:10.480 Please pick up a copy. 00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:11.519 Okay, go ahead. 00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:16.400 Yes, please pick up a copy and leave a review wherever you purchase this book. 00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:22.480 So who is Lavinia, American Ghoul's protagonist? 00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:24.000 Who is Simone? 00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:26.480 And why are they traveling together? 00:33:26.799 --> 00:33:28.880 We talked a little bit about this at the very beginning. 00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:35.839 Um, and then lastly, why was it important to you to have American Ghoul told from Lavinia's perspective of first person? 00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:41.680 So before you answer the question, I want to put out there why I asked the question about first person. 00:33:43.279 --> 00:33:50.400 I also teach their eyes are watching God by Zero No Hurston, along with this book and um Tracy Cross's. 00:33:50.720 --> 00:34:04.799 And one of the things my students and I say is if um Janie May Crawford is this like, you know, very liberated character, coming of age story, and all these things, why is it told in third person? 00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:07.759 Why are we getting her experience as an outsider? 00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:19.039 And this is another reason why I love American Ghoul, is because it is told from the perspective of Lavinia, which is extremely powerful. 00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:27.119 So the question again, um, because again, I ramble and sometimes I even lose where we are. 00:34:28.400 --> 00:34:31.440 Who is Lavinia, American Ghoul's protagonist? 00:34:31.599 --> 00:34:34.480 Who is Simone and why are they traveling together? 00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:41.360 And then why was it important to you to have American Ghoul told from Lavinia's perspective in first person? 00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:44.000 Okay, so who is Lavinia? 00:34:44.079 --> 00:34:46.239 She's somebody who's trying to find herself, right? 00:34:46.400 --> 00:34:48.960 Because when she was on that plantation, everybody's gone. 00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:51.920 She's the only one that's left, as far as like black people. 00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:52.960 She's the only one there. 00:34:53.119 --> 00:34:58.000 And she has this fear of what is the world gonna be like because she that's all she knows, right? 00:34:58.159 --> 00:34:58.960 Is just being that. 00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:04.480 So trying to find herself, and she's conflicted with the whole uh religious aspect of it. 00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:06.880 So it's little sprinklings of that in there too. 00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:19.039 So she's just really trying to find herself, but everything is just kind of um thrown off because now she's got this almost like childlike vampire that she has to kind of take care of. 00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:24.719 So she's in the middle of learning about herself and then learning about what the heck is a ghoul, what does that mean? 00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:26.320 How does that play into my life? 00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:30.960 And then Simone is just um real immature. 00:35:31.119 --> 00:35:39.760 So I have to say when you're asking about the first person one with the voice, and and this is not one of my favorite movies, but I like watching it. 00:35:39.920 --> 00:35:41.360 It's gone with the wind. 00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:50.079 And I it's the I like the movie because uh uh Hattie McDaniel, her character, she would say stuff she didn't care who she was saying it to. 00:35:50.239 --> 00:35:51.280 She was sassy. 00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:52.719 I'm gonna say this direct. 00:35:52.960 --> 00:35:58.559 She called uh what's the girl's name, Scarlet, like she a little spider trying to go off it all, you know, trying to get people's husbands. 00:35:58.719 --> 00:36:01.280 So that's the voice I heard when I heard with Vinnyia. 00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:11.039 So that's why I wanted to tell it in first person because the only scenes that I really like were the scenes that Hattie McDaniel was in when she was like checking people and they didn't know that's like what she was really doing. 00:36:11.119 --> 00:36:12.800 I mean, she was just so sassy with it. 00:36:12.880 --> 00:36:15.920 And so that's what I heard with that, and then pairing that together. 00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:20.719 So it's kind of like a um uh I hate saying a name, I'm just gonna say Hattie McDaniel. 00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:27.760 I'm not gonna say a character's name, but Hattie McDaniel and Scarlett and that back and forth kind of tension that they had in that movie. 00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:30.559 So that's kind of what I saw when I uh put that in. 00:36:30.639 --> 00:36:42.079 So with it being in first person, um, and then the fact that they do have this, I don't know if I'm telling too much, but this kind of connection because she is a ghoul, so you she can kind of get into Simone's head. 00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:44.480 So that's a way to get past that whole your head hopping. 00:36:44.559 --> 00:36:47.360 Well, I mean, she she thinks they connected, she can see that stuff. 00:36:47.440 --> 00:36:56.480 But I mean, just

some of those experiences of her being a black woman doing this, it was just not so much that I was like, could you tell it from third person? 00:36:56.559 --> 00:37:02.320 You could, but I don't think you would get that same voice that I heard from that Hattie McDaniel had. 00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:05.760 It was just the kind of voice that I heard, and I had to get it on there as first person. 00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:07.039 And I don't know, I'm rambling too. 00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:08.559 I did I answer your question? 00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:13.760 You did, and you mentioned something which I'm glad because I I have never seen Gone with the Win. 00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:15.760 I just heard it's like nine days long. 00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:20.559 It's long intermission. 00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:24.559 Like, stop, go use the bathroom, get you some popcorn, we'll be right back with part two. 00:37:24.880 --> 00:37:25.760 It's long. 00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:38.800 I did see the parody Went with the Win on the Carol Burnett show, which I don't know if you've ever seen, but it's the one that has the famous curtain dress by Bob Mackie that's in the Smithsonian. 00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:39.760 So I saw that. 00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:48.639 So I and because Gone with the Win is such an important film, I know of the movie and from the parody, but I'm like, it's long. 00:37:48.800 --> 00:37:51.119 And I love that you referenced Hattie McDaig. 00:37:51.679 --> 00:37:53.920 Because I don't even know what her character's name was. 00:37:54.320 --> 00:37:55.199 Yeah, I'm not doing it. 00:37:55.360 --> 00:37:56.480 Um you can imagine what it is. 00:37:56.639 --> 00:37:58.639 I don't know, it's yeah, it's Hattie McDang. 00:37:59.360 --> 00:38:00.480 So yeah, no. 00:38:02.960 --> 00:38:03.599 Yes. 00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:06.960 And I didn't realize it was told from her perspective. 00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:08.159 The story? 00:38:08.320 --> 00:38:08.639 Yeah. 00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:10.559 Or um Gone with the Wind. 00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:11.519 Gone with the Wind. 00:38:11.679 --> 00:38:13.280 Oh no, it's not from her perspective. 00:38:13.360 --> 00:38:19.599 It was just from the voice that I was kind of oh no, no, no, that was a whole totally different story if it was told from my point of view. 00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:25.039 No, it'd be Gone with Terra, whatever the name of that plantation was. 00:38:25.119 --> 00:38:26.400 That would be the name of the story. 00:38:26.559 --> 00:38:31.199 But no, I was channeling her voice, the way that she interacted with Scarlet on there. 00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:35.199 So yeah, she'd burn that whole place down. 00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:37.440 It's like, no, we ain't gotta worry about the ray-up. 00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:38.639 She's about to burn it on damn. 00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:39.519 Yeah. 00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:44.639 That'd be that movie would be if it was told from her perspective, the movie would be like, go with the wind, go in. 00:38:44.800 --> 00:38:46.239 It would be done in like two minutes. 00:38:46.480 --> 00:38:47.519 No intermissions. 00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:48.880 We done. 00:38:50.239 --> 00:38:52.320 Yes, I love it. 00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:57.519 So speaking of homegirl Simone, who is so messy, but I love her. 00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:04.320 I had somebody get on Instagram, was just like, I love this book, and she was just going in about Simone. 00:39:04.400 --> 00:39:07.840 And this heifer, I was like, So do you like the story? 00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:12.960 I mean, but she said she enjoyed the story. 00:39:13.039 --> 00:39:14.880 But I mean, it was just she was just going in. 00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:15.519 It was so funny. 00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:16.719 But go ahead, so quick. 00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:19.920 Guys, I love that Simone is messy. 00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:23.519 So Simone Asino is from Montreal. 00:39:23.679 --> 00:39:26.559 The story starts in Georgia and we land in Indiana. 00:39:26.880 --> 00:39:35.440 Commerce is also a key theme in this work because we see like Miss Tilly's saloon and the working girls and all these things. 00:39:35.679 --> 00:39:41.519 Um, so there's several types of businesses also represented in this book. 00:39:41.920 --> 00:39:45.599 What was the research process like for writing American Goal? 00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:48.480 Like, what were some research you did, you tapped into? 00:39:48.639 --> 00:39:50.079 How long did it take? 00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:52.880 Like, was this like a systematic process? 00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:57.519 Or because it seems like it given the references that you make in the book? 00:39:57.920 --> 00:40:02.639 Um, I I guess I did a lot of the research first just because it was interesting. 00:40:02.719 --> 00:40:10.159 So it wasn't research specifically for this book, it was just that time period and what are some of the stories and things that I can integrate into that. 00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:18.079 And so there was a lot of um historical stuff that your editors say, nobody cares about this but you. 00:40:18.639 --> 00:40:24.800 So it's like you don't need to say all of this stuff because like I was I I really like the historical stuff. 00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:26.480 Um, but dang, what was your question? 00:40:26.559 --> 00:40:27.679 What were you asking me? 00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:31.920 Yes, um, talk about your research process, which I'm getting into, yes. 00:40:32.079 --> 00:40:35.679 Yeah, so yeah, so it was I was doing all that before I wrote the story. 00:40:35.760 --> 00:40:42.400 So it's basically just taking what I kind of already knew and then just um wrapping the story around that. 00:40:42.559 --> 00:40:48.079 So it was looking to see like there were towns, even though there was not the city of Gary, there were towns. 00:40:48.159 --> 00:40:59.280 So if you're from or you know Gary, there are different neighborhoods, and all of those, not all of them, but most of those neighborhoods were

actually little separate towns before um before Gary came to be. 00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:03.519 So like Tollison, that was a that was a town, and now it's just a neighborhood, right? 00:41:03.599 --> 00:41:09.519 You had Miller, that's a neighborhood, but it would used to be called Miller Station because there was a train depot over there, that sort of thing. 00:41:09.679 --> 00:41:14.400 So just using all of that and uh looking at the different nationalities that were there. 00:41:14.480 --> 00:41:22.800 So you tap it into the the the um Eastern European folks who came over here, you know, trying to get a new life or whatever, and they're settling in this area. 00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:30.800 So just kind of using all of that in there, and then like where can I put these pieces in the story so that it makes sense? 00:41:31.519 --> 00:41:32.000 Nice. 00:41:32.159 --> 00:41:34.400 And I and now I gotta do my own research. 00:41:34.559 --> 00:41:40.880 So, folks, I'm originally from Detroit and I have family that lived in Gary, Indiana, and I think they still do. 00:41:41.119 --> 00:41:43.679 And I would go to Gary, Indiana, and not for fun. 00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:59.039 We always only travel for funerals, and so I'm like, I gotta do my own research on the region because I know of like the immigrants that settled in Detroit, but I didn't realize so this now makes sense in terms of the German references because I was like, German immigrants? 00:41:59.199 --> 00:42:00.000 Wait a minute. 00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:00.639 Okay. 00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:06.480 The Tallinnus was a German town, and so that's what they came there for. 00:42:06.639 --> 00:42:12.079 And so um, yeah, it was all centered around a Lutheran church that was there, that's still there. 00:42:12.320 --> 00:42:17.599 Um, and I'm a Lutheran, so it was all of that history in the cemetery that was that's still there. 00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:21.519 So all of that historical stuff is that was just interesting to me. 00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:23.920 Nice. 00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:26.800 So I have a couple more questions for you. 00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:30.719 Prior to having our guests on the podcast, we asked each of them why they write. 00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:32.880 Here's an excerpt of what you offered. 00:42:33.119 --> 00:42:43.280 Being an author during this time means finding stories to help people escape to a world much different than um what is going on now? 00:42:43.679 --> 00:42:48.239 We experience enough trauma on a daily basis by just watching the news. 00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:52.880 Reading is my escape, and I want to provide that same escape to readers. 00:42:53.119 --> 00:42:56.880 Nothing heavy, just something to give minds a break from the bat. 00:42:57.199 --> 00:43:05.119 So, for you, who have been some of your favorite authors to read, and how has their work inspired your own? 00:43:05.840 --> 00:43:09.840 My well, favorite authors, I guess, would be the classics. 00:43:09.920 --> 00:43:15.360 And when I say classics, I'm talking about Langston and Zora and Tony, those classics. 00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:17.199 So I love reading those. 00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:19.760 I I'll read those over and over and over again. 00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:25.440 Um, but as far as like favorites, I think contemporary, I don't really have a favorite. 00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:33.119 Like there are authors that I read, but I really like books that will take me somewhere else, or books that show me like a different culture. 00:43:33.280 --> 00:43:38.800 So like I'll read um like Rita Wood, she does uh um historical speculative. 00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:40.079 So I I like reading her. 00:43:40.239 --> 00:43:47.840 Um Colson Whitehead, I like reading his stuff, but then um um uh Yangsi Chu, she's uh I'm gonna say it wrong. 00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:57.440 She's a Malaysian writer, and so she's writing about stuff, she's got some speculative elements in there, but she's writing about Malaysia in like 1901. 00:43:57.599 --> 00:43:59.760 Like that's not an area or time period, I know any. 00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:04.559 Anything about, but I love reading those type of stories because you know, teach me something. 00:44:04.639 --> 00:44:07.760 Let me go somewhere else different than where I am. 00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:10.559 And not that I don't like contemporary stories. 00:44:10.719 --> 00:44:14.239 I used to do the Terry McMillan's, the Elon Harris's, the Eric Jerome. 00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:15.599 I used to do all those. 00:44:15.760 --> 00:44:19.119 But I mean, it was now it's like I just need to go somewhere. 00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:20.400 I don't need to be here today. 00:44:20.559 --> 00:44:21.519 I got enough of that. 00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:24.480 So just let me take somewhere, take me somewhere else. 00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:26.800 And so that's what I was thinking with American Ghoul. 00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:28.000 I wasn't trying to get all that deep. 00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:32.800 I just want somebody to have some fun, got a quick read, get a couple of chuckles. 00:44:32.880 --> 00:44:33.920 It's nothing scary. 00:44:34.079 --> 00:44:35.199 My guy mama read it. 00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:37.199 My mama isn't, you can read it with the lights off. 00:44:37.360 --> 00:44:38.239 It's not that super scary. 00:44:38.320 --> 00:44:39.440 But I mean it's an escape. 00:44:39.519 --> 00:44:42.400 And so that's what I'm thinking when I wrote the book. 00:44:42.559 --> 00:44:45.519 Some people read in deeper stuff, which is fine. 00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:57.119 I'm, you know, I'm glad they get stuff out of it, but it was just, you know, I want people to just relax, have fun, forget about the world for a few hours, a couple of days, however long it takes you to read it and just enjoy it. 00:44:57.599 --> 00:44:58.239 Nice. 00:44:59.039 --> 00:45:07.440 And continuing um your response to the question, you also say, and this, I'm really excited to hear your response. 00:45:07.679

--> 00:45:29.440 Given the research of um Octavia Butler's work, um, it is important to share my work this way because black speculative fiction um starting to blow up, and I want my voice in stories to be among the many greats, like Tiana Ridue and Octavia Butler, and to see our stories framed in ways other than trauma stories. 00:45:29.599 --> 00:45:36.320 I had fun writing this book and exploring the characters, and I want readers to have the same experience. 00:45:37.280 --> 00:45:45.599 So, how does your work continue the traditions of black speculative fiction with authors like Tiana Ridue and Octavia Butler? 00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:51.840 And how do you see this work evolving over the next 25 years or so? 00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:54.880 And then I have a tacked on question that I just thought of too. 00:45:55.039 --> 00:45:58.880 But I want to hear your response to the first set of questions. 00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:04.880 I appreciate you putting me in the the in the company of those two writers. 00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:10.719 Um, but um again, I'm not trying to get that deep with it. 00:46:10.800 --> 00:46:18.800 So when you read some um uh black speculative fiction, some it's it's our way of addressing some things. 00:46:18.960 --> 00:46:26.320 Like if you if you've seen sinners, you have to see that movie like several times because it has like so many layers to it. 00:46:26.480 --> 00:46:31.280 And if you're just looking at the surface level, yeah, you're having fun, but there are so many different layers to it. 00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:46.239 And so you can use horror, you can use speculative uh fiction to kind of address those in a way that I guess is not so overt that you're saying, okay, here's the horror, or here's the monster, or here's the terrible thing that's happening, sort of thing. 00:46:46.400 --> 00:46:47.679 And so you kind of get that. 00:46:47.760 --> 00:47:04.079 And so I like that we're starting to tell our stories in a way that is entertaining, that it's not all just, you know, um, yes, this takes place and there's a former slave in the story, but it's not all just like slave stories, trauma stories, and all the things that we're going through. 00:47:04.239 --> 00:47:09.039 You can have this sort of thing, and then you can take pieces of it the way that you need to take it. 00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:11.360 If you want to deep dive into it, that's great. 00:47:11.440 --> 00:47:16.239 If you just want to read it and just have fun with it or watch the movie and have fun with it, that's great too. 00:47:16.400 --> 00:47:28.960 So I would like to see us continuing with that as far as uh writers who do black or uh speculative historical fiction, um, just getting it so that we're just telling stories, right? 00:47:29.199 --> 00:47:33.119 Um, if we do hit something on there, we want to take a social issue. 00:47:33.920 --> 00:47:47.039 And I don't want people to feel like every time because you're a person of color that's writing a book or you're a woman writing a book, that we have to tell, you know, we have to hit these social issues, that we can just write stories, just to write stories and just enjoy them. 00:47:48.079 --> 00:47:52.480 Yeah, and then I don't even know if this is a question, but more like a comment. 00:47:52.639 --> 00:48:02.239 Um, because Octavia Butler, for the past what, five or ten years, especially given the current state of the United States. 00:48:02.800 --> 00:48:09.760 Um her work has like, it's always been in the forefront, but even more so now. 00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:19.360 And now we have, I cannot remember the name of the book, but a book of hers that was just put in reprint that she did not want reprinted. 00:48:20.079 --> 00:48:30.719 And I'm like, I don't plan on buying it or reading it, but this says to me how important her work has become. 00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:54.000 Someone is trying really hard to monetize, and I'm glad the conversations that people in the black book book universe is talking about in terms of like the preserving voice and really honoring um our writers. 00:48:54.159 --> 00:49:02.480 Because also, too, even Tony Morrison, a lot of her stuff is coming up now in terms of her work as an editor and other things being reprinted and things like that. 00:49:02.800 --> 00:49:26.880 So I don't even know if it's necessarily a question, but just something that I just wanted to bring up in terms of black speculative fiction, because those two authors in particular, especially Octavia Butler, especially with the release of uh, I cannot remember the name of that book, um, The Reprint, and just that I think for me that says what their legacies have left behind. 00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:52.159 Yeah, and then even and I lost my train of thought what I was gonna say with that, but um but oh, but as as black people, as people of color, we occupy all spaces, and our story should just not be contained to the experiences of people who of who are not people of color, like you know, we writing something so that because it's marketable, or writing something because it makes them comfortable or something like that. 00:49:52.400 --> 00:49:59.199 We're all in all of these spaces, so yeah, we were in the Civil War, so yeah, we were part of the Gilded Age, so yeah, we were in all of these spaces. 00:49:59.280 --> 00:50:07.360 We should be able to tell stories the way we want to while occupying those spaces that it doesn't have to be, like I said, from the point of view of some type of trauma. 00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:08.400 We're just there. 00:50:08.719 --> 00:50:25.760 We've been here, we're going to be here, and so we should tell stories like those from our perspective to see okay, what was it like, or what could it have been like if we were the richest people in if we were on the Gilded Age and we're the richest people on there, or you got like Bridgerton, and I've never seen that. 00:50:25.840 --> 00:50:26.800 That is not my jam. 00:50:26.960

--> 00:50:29.840 My mama likes that, but that sort of thing, right? 00:50:31.519 --> 00:50:36.800 Um, but we're just there, we're there, we're just not contained in this little small bubble of time. 00:50:37.119 --> 00:50:39.920 So I love that you mentioned Bridget. 00:50:40.159 --> 00:50:45.840 So this is a weird aside, but again, y'all who are watching and listening, y'all are in on a conversation. 00:50:46.159 --> 00:50:47.440 Bridgerton. 00:50:48.320 --> 00:50:58.480 Care by buckle up because I I got so I love that time period, but also I got I have questions for Shonda Rhimes. 00:50:58.639 --> 00:51:03.840 Like, but also I'm not into the like high soap opera drama. 00:51:03.920 --> 00:51:08.320 Like my stepdaughter loves Grade's Anatomy and it's on its like 99th season. 00:51:08.559 --> 00:51:13.679 Um, but I'm like, and I congratulate Shonda Rhymes for being able to create those worlds. 00:51:13.920 --> 00:51:22.159 But me with Bridgerton, I was only able to get through like maybe my husband and I, we watched like 20 minutes of the first episode of the season one. 00:51:22.320 --> 00:51:30.159 And the thing that got to me is, and I'm I'm very progressive, I'm loosey goosey and all this other stuff. 00:51:30.239 --> 00:51:33.360 But sometimes I'm just like, oh my God, this is I was clutching my eye. 00:51:33.519 --> 00:51:36.079 I had to go to the store to clutch pearls. 00:51:36.320 --> 00:51:42.719 The the sex scenes in the first 20 minutes, I was like, didn't they just meet? 00:51:42.800 --> 00:51:44.400 Why are they having sex in the garden? 00:51:44.559 --> 00:51:48.639 Wait, they're having sex in the in the in the in the in the budget thing? 00:51:48.800 --> 00:51:51.599 Wait, wait, there was like nine sex scenes. 00:51:51.760 --> 00:51:53.599 I know, and I've never seen it. 00:51:53.679 --> 00:51:57.199 And when I ask people, like my mother, she's like all into that queen shark. 00:51:57.360 --> 00:51:58.719 I guess it's in that queen shark or something. 00:51:58.800 --> 00:52:00.320 And I'm like, okay, so what is it about? 00:52:00.559 --> 00:52:01.840 Oh my god, these sexy. 00:52:02.079 --> 00:52:06.079 Okay, every time I ask about all this, what is the story about? 00:52:06.400 --> 00:52:07.920 Like, why should I watch that? 00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:10.000 I can think of my own sex scenes in my head. 00:52:10.079 --> 00:52:13.360 I can what is this movie about? 00:52:13.679 --> 00:52:17.280 And I have yet to have somebody explain to like tell me the plot. 00:52:17.440 --> 00:52:19.920 I know there's a plot, but nobody tells me the plot. 00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:22.960 It's just the guy that's in there, and then the set that's all I can. 00:52:24.639 --> 00:52:36.000 Yeah, because the thing with Shonda, well, minus scandal, but the thing with a lot of Shonda Rhyme shows, I feel like we could do if folks drink, could do a drinking game to when the sex happens. 00:52:37.039 --> 00:52:45.920 And for me, like the set it just I think for me,

it just seems not unrealistic, but I'm like, wait, let me plot. 00:52:46.079 --> 00:52:51.760 How did y'all get from just meeting to sleep being together? 00:52:52.079 --> 00:52:56.400 Wait, like I like, but also me, I'm a I'm a I'm a writer. 00:52:56.559 --> 00:53:04.000 Like, I like I know some people, they're more visual when it comes to storytelling and more action-focused. 00:53:04.159 --> 00:53:15.360 Me, I'm more dialogue focused, like I'm about to bring up a name of a filmmaker that has probably been blacklisted and like completely censored for life. 00:53:15.599 --> 00:53:17.679 But I'm a huge Quentin Tarantino fan. 00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:23.280 Like I love, I love rich dialogue and the storytelling being told from dialogue. 00:53:23.440 --> 00:53:29.760 So I know some people they need that action and they need that sex, but for me, I was just like, I'm lost. 00:53:29.920 --> 00:53:36.159 I was like, wait, like I would be rewinding, not for the not for the juicy sex, but I'll be rewinding, like, did I miss something? 00:53:37.039 --> 00:53:38.480 How did they get from this? 00:53:38.960 --> 00:53:41.199 Wait, weren't they just talking about? 00:53:41.280 --> 00:53:42.960 I'm like, what? 00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:52.880 So I but I I commend Shonda Rhymes, and this is the the gift that I wish I had. 00:53:53.039 --> 00:53:57.199 I might, but I haven't had a chance to really sit down to do it. 00:53:57.920 --> 00:54:14.079 I love the gift that she has of creating these worlds where people of color exist without all of the historical trauma and like we we exist in worlds for her where the Beckies can exist. 00:54:14.239 --> 00:54:19.440 Like one of the reasons why I like Scandal is because Carrie Washington's character was super messy. 00:54:19.599 --> 00:54:29.280 And I'm like, what world can a black woman exist where she's not so what's the word I'm looking for? 00:54:29.519 --> 00:54:31.440 Not so not messy. 00:54:31.519 --> 00:54:41.199 Like, I'm not gonna say perfect, but we can't, I don't like things where we can't have flaws because that just that just that that just is just not realistic. 00:54:41.760 --> 00:54:46.960 And so I love writing that takes that risk and that push. 00:54:47.039 --> 00:54:52.800 Because also me as a professor, I deal with so much social commentary all the time. 00:54:52.960 --> 00:55:06.639 I'm just like, yo, like I sometimes I just want this is why I love things like Frasier and I like a lot of slapstick comedy type things because like because I I need I need that escape. 00:55:06.719 --> 00:55:12.880 And I'm like, I want us as people of color to be able to exist in that world. 00:55:13.039 --> 00:55:18.159 Like, I want a messy, like, which I still haven't seen it yet. 00:55:18.239 --> 00:55:20.719 I also might be the person who needs to write it. 00:55:21.119 --> 00:55:40.000 I have not seen a messy, like ingenue black woman in a um husband's in the background, um, in a like romantic comedy before. 00:55:40.239 --> 00:55:44.960 Like, I if people know of it, please tell me because I will watch it. 00:55:45.280 --> 00:55:51.599 But I but you're right, like we need to be able to exist in spaces where everybody else does. 00:55:51.840 --> 00:55:56.639 We do not have to always be the we shall overcome. 00:55:57.039 --> 00:56:03.199 Like, we do not need to be nourishing the Selma Bridge in all of our stuff. 00:56:04.960 --> 00:56:09.599 Yeah, like I said, just just have fun with it sometimes. 00:56:09.679 --> 00:56:18.719 And if you see the social commentary in it, like I did a uh um a book club, and and it it was a book club of white women, and it was it was great. 00:56:18.880 --> 00:56:28.400 I had the best time with them talking about this book, but they were digging so deep into the social commentary, and it was and they were like, I was like, Yeah, that sounds really good. 00:56:28.480 --> 00:56:31.519 I need to write that down because if somebody asked me, I could say, yup, that was it. 00:56:31.599 --> 00:56:31.920 Uh-huh. 00:56:32.000 --> 00:56:41.920 Yeah, I was thinking, I was not thinking that, but that's what they pulled from it, which is I guess great people are getting stuff from it, but it like I keep telling people this is not a deep book. 00:56:42.079 --> 00:56:43.119 It really is not. 00:56:43.199 --> 00:56:45.360 It came, it did not even come from a deep place. 00:56:45.519 --> 00:56:47.599 I was watching a movie and I wrote it down. 00:56:47.840 --> 00:56:49.440 That's where we get it from. 00:56:50.559 --> 00:56:54.159 Yeah, so also too, like just the fact, also too. 00:56:54.239 --> 00:57:00.960 I want to applaud you because let me make sure this book is three. 00:57:01.119 --> 00:57:02.800 This is a lot to write. 00:57:03.039 --> 00:57:07.679 This book is three hundred and how many pages? 00:57:07.840 --> 00:57:09.280 38 pages. 00:57:10.239 --> 00:57:13.039 This is a lot to write. 00:57:13.360 --> 00:57:18.000 So thank you for writing this. 00:57:18.559 --> 00:57:19.599 Like for real. 00:57:20.800 --> 00:57:22.159 So it's it's not dense. 00:57:22.239 --> 00:57:27.039 You're not reading like Barack Obama's book that's like tiny, tiny font, and it's got like 700 pages. 00:57:27.280 --> 00:57:27.840 Good read. 00:57:27.920 --> 00:57:29.519 If you read it, good read. 00:57:29.679 --> 00:57:33.199 But it's like I got old eyes, and I'm like, okay, what font is this? 00:57:33.280 --> 00:57:35.360 Like two, and it's still 700. 00:57:35.760 --> 00:57:37.440 It's not dense like that at all. 00:57:37.679 --> 00:57:38.800 No, you did not, Joseph. 00:57:38.880 --> 00:57:39.440 I'm looking at it. 00:57:39.599 --> 00:57:42.079 So, quick story, and then I have my last question for you. 00:57:42.320 --> 00:57:44.320 Quick story, Barack Obama's a promised land. 00:57:44.480 --> 00:57:47.280 So I read his first two books, I own them, and they're not that long. 00:57:47.440 --> 00:57:50.960 And I was so uh girl, I was so excited for a

promised land. 00:57:51.360 --> 00:57:53.119 I don't pre-order books. 00:57:53.199 --> 00:57:54.719 That book I pre-ordered. 00:57:54.880 --> 00:58:13.280 I was pissed when I got the box in the box, it literally looked like like like a whole, like I don't know how much stuff came, came in the, you know how like when Amazon ships their stuff and they'll have like this big old box, and then you open it and it's like a pen or a body pen. 00:58:14.159 --> 00:58:18.639 No, this book was that big, and I was like, what the heck? 00:58:18.960 --> 00:58:22.400 And then I was like, maybe I'll listen to the audiobook. 00:58:22.800 --> 00:58:26.559 And it was like audiobook, 29 hours. 00:58:26.719 --> 00:58:27.920 I was like, uh-uh. 00:58:28.320 --> 00:58:29.440 Was he reading it? 00:58:29.679 --> 00:58:30.960 Is he okay? 00:58:31.119 --> 00:58:35.920 Yes, okay, yeah, it is it might not be 29 hours, but it's long. 00:58:36.079 --> 00:58:42.159 And I'm like, Obama, President Obama, I love you, but you are so long-winded. 00:58:42.239 --> 00:58:46.000 Like, but I get that he has a lot to say, which I still have not read this book. 00:58:46.079 --> 00:58:49.440 It's still, I am looking at it and pointing at it right now. 00:58:49.599 --> 00:58:51.920 I have not, and I've owned it since it came out. 00:58:52.159 --> 00:58:58.719 It's really, it's a really good book, but I mean, you have to like, I need to set some time aside to read this because it is dense. 00:58:58.800 --> 00:59:00.559 He's getting into a whole lot of stuff. 00:59:00.719 --> 00:59:06.079 It's it's great, but I mean, you know, nowadays people's attention span is about that long. 00:59:06.320 --> 00:59:16.880 So and I love reading, and I love reading like biography and memoir, but I was like, bruh, why? 00:59:17.519 --> 00:59:18.000 What? 00:59:18.239 --> 00:59:23.920 Well, also, he's long-winded anyway, but I'm like, okay, I'll eventually read it. 00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:25.199 I'll eventually read it. 00:59:25.440 --> 00:59:28.079 But yeah, it's good, it's good. 00:59:28.320 --> 00:59:28.639 Okay. 00:59:29.199 --> 00:59:34.239 So and I hate that we're wrapping up our time together, but I do have one last question for you, Michelle. 00:59:34.719 --> 00:59:39.760 What is next for you, and how can the Black Writers Read community support you on this journey? 00:59:41.039 --> 00:59:48.960 What's next for me is waiting for my agent to wade through the mess of manuscript that I just gave her. 00:59:49.599 --> 00:59:51.360 Because like I said, I don't plot. 00:59:51.440 --> 00:59:54.559 And she's just like, okay, it's a lot of story here. 00:59:54.960 --> 00:59:58.400 So she you guess you gotta figure that out and go through. 00:59:58.559 --> 01:00:02.159 So that's what I'm I'm I'm waiting on and working on now. 01:00:02.320 --> 01:00:09.199 But I mean, just um, if you're talking about like read the book, if you hate the book, post the worst review ever. 01:00:09.280 --> 01:00:11.199 So people would be like, dang, is it that bad? 01:00:11.280 --> 01:00:13.119 Let me buy this book and see how bad it is. 01:00:13.280 --> 01:00:15.199 And so, I mean, it that's how it goes. 01:00:15.360 --> 01:00:16.800 So, yeah, do that. 01:00:17.920 --> 01:00:23.440 Get the book, write reviews, and and you'll get a because I already have a second book. 01:00:23.519 --> 01:00:26.000 Like, what happens after this is already brewed in my head. 01:00:26.079 --> 01:00:27.199 I'm ready to write that down. 01:00:27.280 --> 01:00:30.079 But I mean, you can't write it down if you only sold like two books. 01:00:30.320 --> 01:00:36.639 So also, too, I'm anticipating you sold more than two books because you've at least done book clubs. 01:00:36.800 --> 01:00:39.760 So yeah, yeah, more than five books. 01:00:40.159 --> 01:00:41.519 More than five books, yes. 01:00:45.039 --> 01:00:47.280 So, Michelle, this was so much fun. 01:00:47.440 --> 01:00:48.719 Thank you so much. 01:00:50.239 --> 01:00:52.000 Yes, thank you so much for writing. 01:00:52.159 --> 01:00:54.639 Thank you so much for making the time to be on Black Riders Reading. 01:00:54.719 --> 01:00:56.639 Thank you so much for reaching out to me. 01:00:56.800 --> 01:01:02.719 This is the magic of social media because we you reached out to me well almost a year ago, I believe. 01:01:03.119 --> 01:01:04.639 You were booked, booked, book, booked. 01:01:04.719 --> 01:01:06.800 I was like, ooh, everybody trying to get on this podcast. 01:01:06.960 --> 01:01:08.880 Okay, let me try, let me see. 01:01:09.119 --> 01:01:11.440 I got a book you want to try to talk about. 01:01:12.559 --> 01:01:21.360 Yes, which I am in the process of booking season seven right now, and I am booked through November already. 01:01:22.320 --> 01:01:30.719 It is insane, but it's it's a it's I'll I'll say this, it's a blessing because I know with some podcasts, getting guests is really hard. 01:01:30.960 --> 01:01:37.840 Me, I'm like having to like really sit down with my associate producer, Candace, and I'm just like, okay, what are we doing? 01:01:37.920 --> 01:01:50.800 Like, I'm gonna have a retreat with her in May to talk about because the podcast in terms of how it's growing, and it's just like, okay, like, and it's been now, it'll be seven years this September. 01:01:50.880 --> 01:01:55.440 And I'm just like, okay, how can I continue growing? 01:01:55.599 --> 01:01:57.199 Like, where's the stop gap? 01:01:57.280 --> 01:02:01.119 Because also, two, I'm still trying to grow supporters. 01:02:01.280 --> 01:02:03.920 So getting people on is not an issue. 01:02:04.239 --> 01:02:12.159 It's getting supporters, it's getting, you know, for this independently produced award-winning podcast. 01:02:12.719 --> 01:02:22.559 But I also know that I am in, but I I love it, but also because also two, we're colleagues and we've had people on each other's podcasts and they've been on mine. 01:02:22.639 --> 01:02:25.920 There's other black literary podcasts that exist. 01:02:26.480 --> 01:02:36.880 So I'm hoping everyone listens to all of them because I think we all have a different perspective that we are contributing to the larger conversation. 01:02:38.480 --> 01:02:39.119 Yep. 01:02:39.760 --> 01:02:41.039 So no, this was fun. 01:02:41.119 --> 01:02:42.239 I enjoyed it. 01:02:42.559 --> 01:02:44.639 Yay! I love no polish. 01:02:44.719 --> 01:02:46.480 You get no polish from me. 01:02:46.639 --> 01:02:47.280 Yes. 01:02:47.599 --> 01:02:51.599 And people are like, oh, are you like, is this good? 01:02:51.760 --> 01:02:52.079 No. 01:02:52.239 --> 01:02:53.679 I'm like, this is a conversation. 01:02:53.840 --> 01:02:57.199 I'm like, this because people will be like, can I curse on here? 01:02:57.280 --> 01:02:57.760 Can I not? 01:02:57.920 --> 01:02:58.559 Yes. 01:02:58.800 --> 01:03:02.000 Like, it's for me, this is the author's space. 01:03:02.159 --> 01:03:08.400 Like, I I want this to be where y'all can be your authentic selves and shine. 01:03:09.440 --> 01:03:16.559 Yeah, but I also have to remember I'm a few years away from retirement, so I got the I behave when people see and stuff. 01:03:16.639 --> 01:03:17.440 So yeah. 01:03:19.920 --> 01:03:22.400 I'll be real me about eight years. 01:03:22.719 --> 01:03:25.039 Oh, we definitely gonna have you back on then. 01:03:25.280 --> 01:03:34.880 Be like, Michelle is back in her 60s and be like, ooh, ooh, oh, this is the this is the Michelle we've been waiting for. 01:03:35.039 --> 01:03:37.199 Okay, my imaginary pearls. 01:03:37.360 --> 01:03:39.360 Um I'm clutching. 01:03:39.519 --> 01:03:40.639 Like, yes. 01:03:43.519 --> 01:03:46.559 So thank you so much, Michelle, for being on today. 01:03:46.800 --> 01:03:48.159 Thank you for having me. 01:03:50.800 --> 01:03:53.760 Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of Black Riders Read. 01:03:54.000 --> 01:03:56.480 Black Riders Read is available on all platforms. 01:03:56.639 --> 01:04:02.639 Please be sure to subscribe to Black Riders Read wherever you listen to your podcasts to receive each new episode once they are released. 01:04:02.880 --> 01:04:10.079 Also, please review the podcast as each action helps others to find us and it helps us continue to grow. 01:04:10.320 --> 01:04:16.480 I hope that you are so moved and encouraged to take your support of Blackwriters Read one step further and join us on Patreon. 01:04:16.719 --> 01:04:23.360 Thank you for championing this work and helping us to sustain this award winning independently produced virtual platform. 01:04:23.599 --> 01:04:26.400 To learn more, please visit BlackWritersReed.com. 01:04:26.559 --> 01:04:31.760 Thanks again for your support and for ensuring that Black Writers continue to matter.