ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Today’s guest is a bit of a Jack (Jill?) of all trades. Claire L. Evans is a writer, musician, and life-long tech nerd. She’s the author of Broad Band, a book that talks about the women visionaries and technology experts who helped shape the internet. Join for a fascinating discussion on women, history, and computers.
No reading homework required before listening.
P.S. Check out her band Yacht!
English
United States

TRANSCRIPT

00:00:05I'm a Cleveland and I moved to and you are listening to be on the microscope hi everyone welcome back to another episode of the on the microscope today's guest is clear Evans she's the author of broad band %HESITATION book about women in the internet and computers Claire thank
00:00:22you so much for joining us I'm just delighted to be here thank you thanks so this is a little different than our normal episodes where we talk to people who were sitting at benches and and working in labs so tell us a little bit about your connection to
00:00:36the tech world in internet and what it means to you I am a professional spectator I mean I'm a writer so I'm not in take another code or not programmer I don't have a technical background my father works for Intel when I was a kid so I grew
00:00:53up in a technical household knows that computers in the home for as long as I can remember and I've always identified myself in relationship to them I was thought a really great thing about computers for me when I was a kid was that I could share my love
00:01:07it with my dad because even though he was you know more technical and I was more sort of poetic we both got something out of it because that's the great thing about computers right it's a machine and it's also something you can push symbols around on so %HESITATION
00:01:20anyone's interaction with it is valid I am yeah okay I think that's true I don't know %HESITATION but yeah so I've been attacked journalists for many years arm was really more of like a science journalist but investigating the spaces between science and culture and trying to educate our
00:01:43lips of the lay public of this or more the more sort of artistic winning public which was my community because I'm a musician professionally I wanted to make I wanted to sort of make science beautiful to them as well and help them to understand how much of an
00:01:58impact it could have on our world views and I'm not even an artistic practice so that's kind of where I come from yeah the whole translating thing which I do as a journalist also %HESITATION is harder than it looks how did where did you learn that the tech
00:02:14in the and that to to be able to do the translation well a lot of research a lot of lot of research on you know there's there's probably at a level of talking and writing about code that I can never unlocked because it's not something that is one
00:02:28of the languages that I speak but I try to read as many people who do speak that language to understand you know both the impulse of it and and how it feels to do successfully %HESITATION you know I I'm a journalist so I I interview people when I
00:02:43I read their stuff and I go to real deep in the research K. holes and I find myself in a place where I feel relatively competent not necessarily talk about the sort of the instruction set for doing this stuff but more you know the cultural experience of doing
00:02:58it and what it feels like to accomplish something are in the text fears in relationship to everything else around here if that makes sense fell at yes I've been there yeah yeah I mean my heroes when I was like first cutting my teeth as a writer which I
00:03:14was a blogger for many years and in the blog days %HESITATION and how is really admired you know people like Carl Sagan as nerdy as that is because I love people who can talk about science intact but also put a flourish on it you know that lets people
00:03:30understand how significant it really is and it's a lot harder than anybody actually thinks it is Katzenberg it is my official translator well I really have this thing when I was writing about science in the early days were you know I was always contending with these differences in
00:03:45language like the way that the creative community read the word verses like a scientific or technical community toward the cornice example that being the word experimental which you know if you're an artist or musician that means something it means like the opposite of structured mean something super freeform
00:04:02it means something I won't guard and difficult but the word experimenting in a very different if you're an actor your researcher you know that's not something that implies a great deal of structure in fact and in many controls and constraints so there's all these weird language things that
00:04:20you have to kind of wiggle around and figure out words that make sense for both sides in order to communicate tell us a little bit about broadband sure I'm well it's a history of computing and on the internet but told through women's stories arm it's not like the
00:04:39comprehensive history of tact %HESITATION it's an examination of different important moments in tech history the kinds of moments that have been with all devised a great deal in other wonderful up more male dominated books about this stuff you know the development of of the early arpanet the development
00:04:57of the worldwide web Donna programming you know these big kind of important thematic changes and looking at those moments in history and just trying to figure out where the women were in each of those moments and you know where they concentrating what are they up to what part
00:05:13of this and a contributing to an however they've been ignored arm in other histories and and just try to reframe those histories I've been telling people a lot that you know I don't want this book to be read as like an alternative to the great man history in
00:05:30the sense that it's a striding out a bunch of those into the same old heroes I mean there's a lot of ways and grace hopper in the book like legally I have to include them and I love their stories but I don't like that thing of white sticker
00:05:40collecting famous science ladies you know it doesn't tell the whole story to me and it's less meaningful to me to have the sort of perfect hero on a pedestal than it is to you know really understand like the circumstances in which some of the stuff gets done like
00:05:56it's cool it'll always was a genius but also you know she had she was a drug addict of and she was you know always sick and she always chinchillas we're relationship with motherhood and she struggled a lot you know and the fact that she managed to what you
00:06:10did in the time that she did with in the contacts that she lived in is so much more interesting and so much more useful to me as a woman who wants to make it in this world like those are things I can learn from and I hope that
00:06:22this book is full of that that's what I try to do anyway so I'm I have a whole lot of questions but in this sense like findings there obviously they're the main character ones the ones everybody can name if used or maybe name face try to rattle off
00:06:36women in these fields but the the sort of I felt like the second half of the book was a lot of of names I'd never heard of and sort of Sears I never heard of where those things that you've been bouncing around you knew about it did you
00:06:48have to go digging in looking for side angles and different approaches to what was changing and in the tech world I did a lot of digging things I did a lot of thinking I I mean I think for me is important to include the sort of baseline historical
00:07:00characters in other early ENIAC programmers and and and grace hopper and stuff because they set a framework and this foundation for sort of the other stories abound softens and to relate to because there are a lot of things that come up again and again it's interesting to see
00:07:14you know kind of where they originate but yeah the later stories it's a lot of you know networking web stuff and these are people that well it was really important for me to represent people who weren't necessarily working on the tax side were doing kind of cultural development
00:07:30and community building in the early network spaces because that's to me a very important part of developing a technology it's not something that happens in a void or you know in a vacuum I mean it's not something that's isolated from from people's experiences it's something that's completely embedded
00:07:48in people's experiences and so I wanted to feature people who maybe would have not been included in more rigorous scene at tech type histories just because what they're doing is you know making cool websites in the early weapon and building communities of people that have a senior of
00:08:05a shared sense of mission and identity up in in new spaces and network computing into those are things that and their technical but their cultural too and I'm interested in that user oriented aspect %HESITATION little you know a lot of these people I found through you know they
00:08:23would be mentioned briefly in an article in the footnote of something and then I went to track them down and ask them what their story was and then ask them to tell me who else I should talk to you know journalism basically race were they surprised when you
00:08:37called them up or they're like finally somewhere in us somewhere it's interesting I mean with some of the early web characters like the people that comprise the chapters that take place them in the dark Kahn years they were all kind of rock stars in the first wave like
00:08:51in the early sort of media's attempt to grapple with you know the emergence of the web and they you know there were a lot of magazine profiles written about like trendy cyber people in the nineties and a lot of these people were strict were really famous for just
00:09:05being cool and online us so they don't it kind of experience were a lot of interest in them and then that than it had dropped out for a long time so it was an interesting kind of conversation to have because it was like you know trying to understand
00:09:20how you can you can be a star in one moment and then your contributions considered be isolated to that known in terms of how they're recognized and then and then a lot of nothing for a long time but everybody I mean every single person email for this book
00:09:35in every game and every aspect of it every single person said yes because you know there are many stories there but people have been I think waiting to tell and wanting to tell and it was honestly all I could do to get them down on paper fast enough
00:09:50how long did this whole process take you of two one two and some change years maybe three years when did you come up with the idea to start this or was it like you were accumulating some interviews and in your notebook and you went I think I have
00:10:04something here kind of I I was I had been writing a series of articles from other board which is a site that I used to work for slash still work for sometimes about around just like women in cyber culture because I'm a real kind of nostalgia isn't just
00:10:21about you know early nineties internet culture so I was already writing some of that kind of stuff but I was sort of doing it because I was in this period of my development as a human being where I started to feel somewhat disconnected from my original lifelong identity
00:10:35as an internet person I had always been a really define myself in relation to the internet for most of my adult life so far %HESITATION most not as good at the internet like doing projects on the internet but I don't know I was getting to a place maybe
00:10:49three or four years ago where I started to feel that that was no longer true about myself and probably a lot of women I felt more vulnerable and I felt less excited about expressing my my complete self in online public space more more more worried about retribution so
00:11:07I think trying to just find them up I don't try to position myself within some kind of context of women and computers you know I want to feel like it was a country that belong to me as much as it always had been so I went looking for
00:11:20I went looking for all the grandmothers and the more I started collecting on the more I yeah I realize that there was a whole book there and that they were actually very many books there I mean I really don't want people to look at broadband and say okay
00:11:34you know we're done this is the complete history there's so much stuff that I couldn't include in the book that I had to cut that I couldn't even begin to get to because the crazy thing about it is even though we have all these tech books you know
00:11:47these classic tech histories that tells the same stories over and over again like there's actually look a lot more stories that are just as interesting I would argue more interesting than hearing for the ten millionth time about Steve Jobs going to hire the guy from Pepsi whatever like
00:12:02I can't believe how much stuff there is makes me mad that my stuff out there and I hope that many more books are written not by me but maybe by me but on other people this is a little bit %HESITATION will I'll get I have a couple more
00:12:17specific things about the book itself but in general so you started this research about Jewish some years ago do you think that %HESITATION readers with with the whole me to movement going on right now that readers will have a different perspective it was while look at you with
00:12:37yeah yeah I think it's kind of hitting a nerve a little bit with some people right now like people are eager to hear this story I think because of things like the need to movement it's funny in the process of writing this book which you know reading a
00:12:50book takes time there were many moments along the way or something would happen like the Google then our likes and gamergate thing where I would be like oh man do I put this in the book like my writing the story that I'm writing in relation to this now
00:13:03is this the conversation and the more that I tried to sort of think about how would Russian my book in that dialogue the more I was I don't know I I didn't I didn't want to let all that darkness in and I didn't want to be I don't
00:13:16want the book to be in relation like in a row in a position of retreat or defensive a defense from that I just wanted to be like this positive thing that included store good edifying stories that of course exist in the context similar to the context that we're
00:13:31experiencing today at various different degrees but you know I wanted to sort of bring the light rather than intend with the darkness but I think the stories are super relevant to any conversation that we're having pout women's role on this earth because you know there are things that
00:13:47happen again and again in this history that also happened again and again and all of our lives and I think they'll be pretty easily recognizable I buy so you couldn't quite keep it all out with that I think there is a comment you made about the the picture
00:13:59that just identified all the women women or men pulled people in the room and then that I mean I I can't tell you how like how it turns out you know you know I'll find like a picture on my phone a picture on on the computer history museum
00:14:12website kind of recently for this period of the in the nineteen seventies I was interested in people that were working on community memory and there was like a group of five people and all the men were named in the news this unknown woman and I know I've been
00:14:25like going unknown woman basically in every period of history %HESITATION but like all I'm trying to do is find another book in itself I know about it and do you have a favorite person a lot of people have been asking me that it's funny %HESITATION I have a
00:14:41lot of things I mean I have the people that I think are going to be in my life for awhile like Stacy horn is the founder of a very early BBS online community in nineteen eighty nine she and I met in New York last week for the first
00:14:56time in person and work with little buds now and %HESITATION should I see her as a life long like mentor role model I don't know she sees me as as Vermentino this early but I'm trying to get happened but %HESITATION I really love in terms of sort of
00:15:10a relationship of I think I relate very strongly to the women of hypertext chapter because I think they kind of think about the world the same way that I do when the hall and and Cathy Marshall but they're both these super interesting hypertext and %HESITATION hypermedia designers and
00:15:29researchers from the nineteen eighties and nineties who just think about information in such an interesting way and %HESITATION you know always see other possibilities for the ways in which we can connect information to itself which is a fascinating thing I guess as a writer that's something that I'm
00:15:44always trying to figure out and they're the ones that mess with my head the most when I was right because I would you know all this early hypertext of it's all about you know of a facsimile of an index card containing information connected to other facsimiles of index
00:15:58cards you know that's a hypercard was just like a lot of these early hypertext systems how they navigated and I would have use index cards in my office when I was writing with all my ideas for the book in the structure and the more I would talk to
00:16:09these hypertext researchers the more I was like yeah I can connect this to this I can make I can draw this really obscure thread you know from the Victorian age all the way through to through the nineteen fifties and it'll all make sense and I turned my first
00:16:22dropped it was just all over the place because I thought I was reading with no network hypertext experimental novel and then when I re organize everything and made a chronological I realize I'd missed huge gaps in the history because I was so besotted with the idea of hyper
00:16:38so I love the hypertext people but they did break my brain I don't have one of these like you know serial killer walls of yarn between the cards at a high I definitely had some yarn I had sent hello hello hello tech to be high tech yeah totally
00:16:56I mean everything old is new again monster is there I'm I'm sure you've been asked this to you buddy it while you were doing this research is there something that sort of surprised you or or stood out to you as something that just seemed out of out of
00:17:08context like he obviously been immersed in in the internet world in tech world for a long time it seems sort of know most of the staff and something pop out you going I had no idea this is how this works or these people were involved that story I
00:17:22feel like I have no idea the most is the Jake finalize story which is you know what you you read the book obviously some ex I'm explaining this to the wider public I suppose you know she's this woman who ran the central information office for the internet for
00:17:38twenty years which you know sounds like a secretarial job within the more you talked I talked to her the more I read the material around it the more I realize that she was just running like she was the center brain you know information that was amazing forests like
00:17:51interface she was the interface for the network for such a long time because there was no interface of people wanted to know what was on another computer on the network they would have to literally call her on the phone and she would say oh yeah that's like Kevin's
00:18:03computer and he has these programs on it it's mind blowing to think about and the fact that she was just super of like she's the most overworked person I think in history that she talked about her job made me break out in hives like she was on the
00:18:17clock basically twenty twenty four hours a day you know answering phones accountable for all this incredible manusia you know like all this the specifics of the host's table to the arpanet and you're making sure that every single host separate protocols and all the paperwork in order and at
00:18:32the at the speed that the network is growing exponentially I am I mean she lasted that long so she's that's a storybook and it's like I've read there's been so many is re specifically about that place and time you know the arpanet days she is mentioned I mean
00:18:48I think literally in one of the most sinister through as of but not only as a footnote which is bonkers to me I just got to see like the feeling that if she hadn't been there either that time it never would've happened or it would never have become
00:19:00what it was for sure for sure I took a vacation who knows she retired at one point and then I think went straight back to work she was part of actually interesting fun factor will include in the book that she retired from the neck and then immediately went
00:19:16to work on some web stuff and she was part of the team that installed the worldwide web at the White House during I believe during her retirement yes short for an asset that's right your pronounced like Mrs Webb staff and she installed she like set up the web
00:19:32at the at the White House intern and they have not agreed is not probably not so aside from you know the time that you spend writing books what do you do every day you do your time boy well %HESITATION today nothing but other things I'm I'm a musician
00:19:59that's been my day job for the last ten years issue on this band called yacht which is a bet is a bad name but it stands for young Americans challenging high technology so you can see it's somewhat still connected to my life but yeah I tour and make
00:20:17records and I've been doing that for a long time singer in a band it's something I always joke about that I'm legally or technically it's the lead singer of a band because it's all the things I do probably the thing that I am the worst at but I
00:20:32come from punk so you know I think there's spirit spirit arm is important and that's what I bring to the table anyway yeah I play music I've been a writer for a long time and I do what they're like odds and sods around early but that's mostly it
00:20:46do it seems like even just with the name of your band that the technology sort of plays an important part of your life in general in and there's a certain generation of us that but the what I call us Oregon Trail generation or not I like that name
00:21:02I've never heard that I love that right you haven't really I don't get credit for this but it's it's those of us that like grew up with computers available but not everywhere yet totally computer lab at selling computer lab at school you sat and played Oregon Trail or
00:21:17I don't know then you had maybe a Sega game gear or Nintendo at home but like you had dial up you had your a wild CD's your and you had you know Sierra online or like any of those other like it but it wasn't pervasive right you had
00:21:32to like it was a set act you sat down the computer for hours in the middle the living room and you play your game and then you're done and then it wasn't until we were in college or adults that social media with even a thing my space I
00:21:44guess existed before it but we weren't like didn't grow up in an age in which your life was to find online you can't think that's what I'm nodding I'm I'm not a I don't know I guess I like I know I have trouble associating with like the millennial
00:22:00age bracket yes I find I find that I grew up I'm I'm older than that in the sense that I didn't have people writing mean Facebook post about me and I school like that's not a thing yeah I would say that I'm old enough to sort of have
00:22:14overlapped you know the pre internet world in the early internet world like I remember a time before the internet but I couldn't you're right it's more that I remember a time when the internet was something I had limitations it was something that you clocked in and out of
00:22:25Benny had sort of like you had a set experience with you know like running a program he opened it he ran it and closed it and now I don't know where I don't know where we close where we open and close I don't I think we're always open
00:22:37doing any we can escape but I I just wonder whether you like to be in that spear whether we look at technology and the internet differently than maybe someone who's just always had the talent problem is yeah I think I definitely think so I mean I never I
00:22:54never want to say that one generation has you know a better or more bolted perspective on the reality of affairs because I'm constantly being blown away by how amazing people who are younger than me are up but I think in terms of sort of thinking about this stuff
00:23:09and you know that's why I wanted to write this book because I felt like I had this I had a view on it that was it was it was an interesting here because you know you're either looking at it from from a position like my parents generation where
00:23:21it's just been live their whole lives about this thing and it appeared you know kind of blooms in this massive way in a very relatively short time for them that's one way of looking at it and that's the way I think it has been looked at a lot
00:23:35of but I wanna dress making kind of that fact that existed in a context that considers see and experience the stuff in a personal way and that's yeah I think that's the generation that we are it's our it's our sacred duty to read about the what what sort
00:23:55of following on that how easy was it for you to get this book published pretty easy I mean I think I've been really lucky knock on wood I've already you know when I started thinking about wanting to do this book I have I have a good and nice
00:24:09and very talented agent who really helped me craft the proposal into something that would be interesting to publishers so I think I I had a leg up there but %HESITATION you know once the sort of proposal went out there of there was a lot of interest in it
00:24:25it seem like something that people wanted or at least perceived there was a space in the market for and never know if that means it's what's necessary in this world but they it was it's I think it was seen as something that would do well in the world
00:24:38that's not why I wanted to write it but I think the publisher I think the house was like women in computer yep that sounds like some people want to hear about sold sold figures in the fields right now yes we have another one of those yeah oh my
00:24:50god didn't think it's funny when figures the book I think was already out when I started writing learn but the movie came out in the middle of the process of writing this book and it was so funny howl how much people reference in figures afterwards and like to
00:25:05completely change the conversation and I think as a whole generation of people learn that women did computing work before the invention of computers for the first time I heard that was that was like the place that most people in the world learned that information from so it's I
00:25:21think it's really changed people's perspective on a lot of things and sort of opened up a crack a little bit into this idea that maybe this this thing that we we have pretty much set in stone is actually totally a construction and need to go back and re
00:25:35examine it because there might be a lot more stories there do you like having a comparison when people kind of say this is the hidden fears of you know the thing is is that what I would be I should be so lucky great double story told very well
00:25:50%HESITATION it's that's the book is a great thing yeah I well I can't wait for there to be lots of us in this clubhouse in look in the computer lady book club house there's there's many more do you have %HESITATION your I want to look forward in in
00:26:05futuristic in and what you see being and then the tax basin and music space and design space which is sort of all merging together really %HESITATION what you see in the future of what what's the next I know I can't ask you what the next big thing is
00:26:21because that I should put money on it but I mean like what's the next trend of the next thing that needs to be addressed or you think will be a dresser or will change that is a very interesting question and I think it's very funny to me that
00:26:34I read this book about history and people have been asking me a lot about the future which I am happy to think about but I feel less qualified perhaps than what we started with the U. saying what's old is new again an old again so I mean you
00:26:47can just say that it's at a love in a loveless again I mean my personal desire it I think is different from where the bike I since going I ate it deal aficionado of old technology obviously and that there's kind of this grace and beauty in certain old
00:27:03technological conventions that I think perhaps oversaturated you know media media saturated millennials might find kind of nostalgic in the same way that maybe people are attracted to vinyl or cassettes or you know acoustic live performance because it feels authentic Mike I think that there is maybe a I
00:27:26hope that there is a movement of young people gravitating towards older models of being online as a as the search for authenticity online and maybe that means you know building their own smaller platforms and having more localized armed social communities online or more private social communities I think
00:27:44you're ready seeing that was stuff like slack on the popularity of you know group taxed versus public discourse on Facebook or someplace like that where it's much more like you know the agora where everyone is is talking on a pedestal I think I think we'll see a movement
00:27:59toward smaller scale social media that's my hope I think will be helpful I think our society would be a lot healthier if that was the thing that happened but I don't know I've also spent the last couple of years reading about you know the early internet and early
00:28:11weapon once one of the things you really can't escape when you read about this stuff is overwhelming optimism from early adopters about what cyberspace represented for humanity you know all these sort of cyber utopian you know declaration of the independence of cyberspace and we're all going to exist
00:28:28you know as a civilization of the mind and they'll be no divisions of race gender class or ability because we'll just use avatars floating around in this New World and you know it's it's funny to read that stuff now because obviously cyberspace whatever that is is not utopian
00:28:44but you know and I think what those people didn't anticipate is that there's no such thing as a new domain like perhaps when something is emerging you can kind of project a lot of your desires and aspirations are into it but once you go there years going to
00:28:58bring everything with you and you know I think it's really easy to project on to new technologies and I think we're we're seeing that especially with technologies that are a little bit of pain you know we're seeing that a lot now with a online blockchain you know people
00:29:12are throwing themselves into these things the imagination that they're going to remake capitalism or they're going to remake you know the nature of human intelligence and our relationship with the world that they can fix it now in which we don't I don't know I don't I don't see
00:29:26those as opportunities to start over I think I think we need to really seriously reckon with what we got and make sure that whatever we bring with us is you know it's it's internal it's like an internal change that has to happen not a technological change in technology
00:29:41can always amplify the good and bad so it's important for us to you know have our ducks in a row as a culture the eccentric report I don't know no but I think it makes sense I I'm I the amplification thing I think is something that's over this
00:29:57missed a lot that like it does a lot of really good things but also does it sort of equal and balanced version of a lot of bad things yet exacting things out that way everyone's talking about how the you to bring the nation over them as radical as
00:30:12in people but would like though and that in that is true but it also you know if you see if you look are looking for an obscure disco song it also radicalized you towards even more obscure disco hunting it's like interest it go it takes you down the
00:30:27rabbit hole whatever it thinks you want and in that sense it's it's scary because it indulges is almost too much you know it's like it feels I don't know what class or something like we don't deserve to be cater to that extensively %HESITATION but it's also in like
00:30:42it shows that it's you know these forces are really powerful making things they can take us really hard into a really scary place so they can take this really hard into something beautiful and I don't know if those things can exist independently of each other yeah so I
00:30:56have one last question before we let you go and that is what kind of thing do you would you love your fictional whatever that you would love to have wise internet wise in front of you is it foldable easy paper is it you know %HESITATION and even you
00:31:12know implanted something in your in your brain that means you can't be in the I mean what is it is or something like that that you'd love to have a new one I've got a whole I want I want a computer that's like a burner that's just for
00:31:25text and it you know that's just for ratings no distractions but isn't like and I've had a keyboard or something I like the idea of things not being so generalized so much anymore you know I think that part of the reason that the computer is such a you
00:31:39know seductive force in this world is that it it can you can start doing one thing and end up doing something different because it's just this internet portal but I like the idea of machines are just do one thing so I like it a writing machine maybe just
00:31:51a straight up word processor machine in the old sense I've heard of this thing I think it's called a typewriter yeah right I can't you know I thought if I lose trust me I looked at vintage Italian typewriters on and see while I was writing this book there's
00:32:09a nice model by already but I'm not gonna do it it's too much I also want everything all the good stuff from Star Trek and one universal translator and one of the holodeck experience I don't want you on that one the universal translator thing that's we're not that
00:32:23far from that by knowing will but it's it has huge potential right so was so all these sort of instances in history where there are women kind of behind the scenes that don't get the credit for it is that is that still happening today you think yes don't
00:32:40you I mean I yeah I just want to get sort of yeah I I guess we do too but you tell us yes I think I think there is a large population of women working in in in in all manner of disciplines who are doing the heavy lifting
00:32:57and the extent to which they're doing the heavy lifting is as yet unknown by the public I believe that to be true %HESITATION and the hope is that we'll get past that it seems like I mean it seems like a lot is happening right now it's very interesting
00:33:10to be a spectator in this moment and to see people you know claiming their space claiming a creating safety or for other women around them and bringing other women up and you know doing really well I mean I I think there's a lot of good stuff happening I
00:33:26think were really long way from where we need to be especially intact but I'm hopeful I want to have a seed of hope at the end of this conversation so it's not just about you know yes and nightmare of the information superhighway what I think is happening I
00:33:43think it's kind of %HESITATION somewhat fractured or or decentralized %HESITATION in that sense but hopeful for the future I mean even like the look the most myopic perspective I ate in the last seven days of this book is been out in the world I get the sense that
00:33:58a lot of my audience me beat earnest men who are just like trying to figure it out like I've got what I need to read this to understand what's been going on gotten like a lot of very earnest men intact were like all great that's great great I'm
00:34:11so upset about this book and it doesn't seem to put on a think I think there's people that really want to be part of such a change and %HESITATION you know because it benefits us all obviously I'm glad that's all the questions that we have thank you so
00:34:23much for %HESITATION sort of hearing us instant I love this thank you for having me okay you're still here thanks for sticking around the end of the show help other people find this podcast by giving us a reading on iTunes and don't forget to follow us on Twitter
00:34:41and Facebook at school podcast our theme music was composed by a cop because

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