Full Transcript for Beekeeping Under Pressure

00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:46.319 And I'm assuming that when you got into the business, you and your brothers, uh, it wasn't as big as it is today. 00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:46.879 No. 00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:53.920 So how how did it uh move from like I well, I don't know how many hives he had at the time, what the size of the business? 00:04:54.240 --> 00:04:56.319 Basically, it was like 5,000 hives. 00:04:56.639 --> 00:05:06.879 And my dad, as we all grew up, he was bigger and room and ran V's in Alberta, Canada before he went to North Dakota, but he had several full-time hire guys, but still a lot. 00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:09.040 I mean, of course, there was no mic treatments, right? 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:14.240 No pollen patties, just fee, you know, queens lasted longer, so different dynamic. 00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:18.319 So you with a lot less uh employees, you could run more hives. 00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:20.480 But then when I joined in, we doubled. 00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:22.959 My last brother jumped jumped in, we tripled. 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:25.439 So we went from 5,000 up to 20,000. 00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:28.480 And of course, you need more employees with that. 00:05:28.639 --> 00:05:30.240 But is it just it's interesting. 00:05:30.319 --> 00:05:47.759 My wife and I were talking about the other day, is man, just the nights like the last putting bees in and taking them out of almonds, you know, one, two in the morning, me and one higher guy, sometimes me by myself, and just late nights, and now you know, you you can afford more employees. 00:05:47.920 --> 00:06:03.120 And that's the great thing about I think a family business is just my you know, my dad gave us everything, so it's just you have all that capital that you can just keep you know growing on, and so it's not as many late nights, it's you know, still hard work, but not as bad as what it was, I guess, when I'm younger. 00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:03.920 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:05.759 No, that's uh that's interesting. 00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:19.120 And and to you, like the transition of this is this becoming a business and not just a lifestyle, was it when you like officially joined the family business or did it come a little bit later? 00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:23.600 Or well, it's kind of always been a lifestyle just because that's what we always did. 00:06:23.759 --> 00:06:32.959 But then when we when I chose my wife and I to become partner with the with the family, yeah, yeah, the lifestyle was like you're all in. 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:58.000 You're you're going and you're apart, and I can I can remember one like 2000, 2001, we were done getting everything out of almonds and getting them to the apples in Washington, and we had like a half a load left, and my brothers really needed some help in Washington when my oldest brother's his his wife passed away, and so I remember I moved bees till like 10, 11 o'clock at night. 00:06:58.079 --> 00:07:00.720 I came back to Madeira,

helped my wife finish cleaning the apartment. 00:07:00.800 --> 00:07:05.360 We had a baby, a newborn baby, and we drove to like Stockton, got a hotel. 00:07:05.439 --> 00:07:09.360 The next day, she had to stop because of the crying baby in the car seat and all this. 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:11.439 And I'm like, sweetie, I can't stop with you. 00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:12.160 I gotta keep going. 00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:13.519 I got bees on, it's hot. 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:14.879 And I went up to Washington. 00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:17.519 Of course, my brothers and all the guys are all moving bees. 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:18.959 So I went, I'm dead tired. 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:21.519 I go unload by myself, no help. 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:26.079 And I'm like, and then just started taking bees out of apples, and that was kind of how we did things. 00:07:26.319 --> 00:07:38.000 Um, so it was tough on family for many years, but I think, yeah, like I'm saying, it's better now that we have more experienced, trusted employees that we've had for 10, 20 years, and that eases the burden on us. 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:40.480 Of course, and then the upcoming generation also. 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:47.839 And I I think that generally speaking, you know, uh uh the beekeeping industry is it's a it's it's a bit of a all or nothing type deal. 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:57.040 Like you can't be uh especially large-scale professional commercial beekeeper if you know you're not fully committed to it. 00:07:57.279 --> 00:07:57.839 Right, right. 00:07:57.920 --> 00:08:00.720 That's why a lot of people are hobbyists, they become sideliners. 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:06.160 You got to decide, put your second job away and go all in or just forget and go back to being a hobbyist. 00:08:06.399 --> 00:08:07.040 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:14.480 And also once you start increasing your scale, you you're facing the real problems. 00:08:14.720 --> 00:08:31.120 You know, when when when you you might be uh a professionally a good beekeeper, but you know, when you're a hobbyist and you have 10, 20 hives, you feel it you you might feel it's really easy to just build them up and and expand. 00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:38.320 Once you hit the 500 and you start building up from there, it's it becomes a business, it becomes a little more difficult. 00:08:38.559 --> 00:08:38.879 That's right. 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:54.960 Do you can you think of like uh a few hard uh instances during your your career and the work in the business that kind of shaped the way that uh that you view the business today, that you manage risk or stuff like that? 00:08:55.440 --> 00:09:07.200 Well, my dad taught us just it's always kind of that you know get or done attitude, and you know, yourself, you're you're independent, and he put a lot of trust into us very early in life. 00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:07.600 Right. 00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:12.639 Driving forkless, even driving before we had licenses to move bees and stuff, yeah. 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:20.320 But I can remember, I was young, really young, 23, probably 24, and two winters in a row. 00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:26.080 We used to run bees in eastern North Dakota, and they had early snowstorms, and we waited, like, oh, the snow's gonna melt. 00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:27.759 Well, it didn't melt, it just got worse. 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:31.759 I remember like two different times, two straight years in a row. 00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:48.480 Once with my one of my brothers and once with one of our higher guys, just going to Eastern North Dakota, chaining up my my freightliner, trying to get in and out of bee yards, getting stuck, um, just crazy stuff, and just freezing, you know, having the heater all weekend up on full blast. 00:09:48.639 --> 00:09:56.159 I was never warm all weekend, leaving the forklift running so it would start at the next yard, and just because it was that cold. 00:09:56.320 --> 00:09:58.639 I mean, just some brutal conditions. 00:09:59.039 --> 00:09:59.840 Brutal conditions. 00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:04.240 Like, you know, I can remember one B yard I got into the B yard. 00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:08.320 I had enough weight to get out, but I couldn't get out with the trailer and the forklift. 00:10:08.399 --> 00:10:19.440 So I unhooked the trailer to the forklift, got the truck out of the old homestead back onto the township road, and I'm like, well, dang, now I gotta get the forklift in the in the trailer back onto the road to go to the next yard. 00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:27.919 And I couldn't, the forklift wasn't powerful enough, so I just hooked a rope to the trailer and to the hitch of the truck, and it was like a triangle, right? 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:29.600 And it was like the hypotenuse of a right. 00:10:29.919 --> 00:10:32.559 A triangle, the forklift didn't go to the road and come this way. 00:10:32.720 --> 00:10:41.120 The forklift trailer obviously came through the ditch bank like a submarine went under the snow and came out up onto the township road. 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:41.279 Wow. 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:43.440 And that rope held, I was like, oh wow. 00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:46.240 I was like, Mike, let's load up, let's get out of here. 00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:49.759 But just stuff like that, you know, you remember challenges. 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:51.360 But yeah, it's just always that. 00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:53.200 And that was that was before cell phones. 00:10:53.279 --> 00:10:54.799 That was just a paper map, right? 00:10:55.039 --> 00:10:56.879 No cell phone, nobody to call. 00:10:57.039 --> 00:10:58.159 Yeah, just yeah. 00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:02.960 If you're stuck, you're walking or on your forklift to go knock on a door five miles away. 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:22.000 Yeah, I think I think uh commercial beekeepers, especially migratory beekeepers, that tend to have very um uh self-sufficient mentality, uh, ability, because you you kind of have to get stuck somewhere, even

today with cell phones and everything, you might not have signal wherever in places we we we go. 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:24.399 So yeah, it's interesting. 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:30.080 And uh was almond pollination always part of what you guys did from since you were a young kid? 00:11:30.159 --> 00:11:31.440 Or yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:44.639 My dad, I think you know the story, my dad pollinated almonds for free in 68 or 69, I can't remember, in Yuba City, because in Washington State where we grew up, there has a really bad wit blizzard that year, and he was worried about his bees. 00:11:44.720 --> 00:11:50.559 And he had a friend that said, Hey, come down to Yuba City, there's almonds and there's prunes blooming afterwards, so he did it for free. 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:54.799 And the next year he charged four bucks, the next year he charged five dollars for almond pollen. 00:11:55.039 --> 00:11:58.399 So we've yeah, from the very early days, hyed honey has been involved in the almonds. 00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:00.879 But I would not come down because I was in school. 00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:02.799 I was in middle school, high school. 00:12:02.879 --> 00:12:07.279 Um, my dad had his guys, and he would come down and do it and go through brokers and stuff. 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:16.559 But it just made sense when we got bigger that there would be several sons down here to run the bees instead of using brokers, we have our own accounts, right? 00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:23.919 Right, and and additionally, you know, the the the almond pollination market changed its price completely, right? 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:26.240 Yeah, and grown, and yeah, it's incredible. 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:33.120 Yeah, and uh so with this current season, what what what's your general feel? 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:40.559 What do you think um was different than other seasons, maybe, or similar, or it's just talk about bad timing. 00:12:40.720 --> 00:12:47.519 We had um two straight months of no rain, and we had a great fall, like November, four or five inches. 00:12:47.679 --> 00:12:54.080 Everything greened up, everything, and then right during peak bloom, we had two and a half inches. 00:12:54.480 --> 00:13:02.639 And so they lost probably over a few days, over several wind, cold temperatures, so yeah, they probably lost six days. 00:13:02.799 --> 00:13:11.039 Yeah, but you know, talking to some old growers, actually, I talked to my my Duarte nursery rep that I I need some replants. 00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:16.080 We got some fell over, and he's like, you know, I remember back in 0405, and I was like, I remember that. 00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:19.519 We were making divides in March, and it was like the rain would not stop. 00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:26.720 Yeah, they had a decent crop, it was below average, sure, but they thought it was a total disaster, but no, they still had a decent crop. 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:31.759 It's amazing what just a few hours of good weather of good weather if you have good bees. 00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:32.480 If you have good bees. 00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:41.919 Of course, that was 0405, you know, 20 years ago, sure, where there was probably the quality of highs was higher than it is today per average basis. 00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:50.879 I can just tell you, just within our own operation, it was probably 12, 13, 14 frame average back then, easy, versus today it's harder to get to there. 00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:52.480 Yeah. 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:56.240 No, it uh it does get harder every year. 00:13:56.320 --> 00:13:58.080 Uh there's something new, right? 00:13:58.559 --> 00:14:06.720 Um and uh it also feels like pollination kind of started a little earlier this year, maybe about a week or so. 00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:08.480 Yeah, I think a week early, yeah. 00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:21.360 And uh it also feels and it might just be because it started early, so it's kind of finishing up earlier, but it still it feels to me like it was a quicker bloom than than normally. 00:14:21.840 --> 00:14:22.080 It was. 00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:24.240 I think I think so if you add it up, yeah. 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:27.600 Yeah, it's usually not a flash bloom, but it was definitely fat. 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:37.120 Usually when we start making divides, um there's a lot more petals on the tree, and it's we're well into March, yeah, mid-March. 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:44.240 Yeah, but yeah, there it's you can see some orchards not mine, but there are no petals leafed out, yeah, done. 00:14:44.559 --> 00:14:45.519 I've seen some on the way here. 00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:49.200 Yeah, it was and yesterday I was down in Fresno too, it was the same, same thing. 00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:50.320 Yeah, so that's crazy. 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:51.759 Yeah, it's not even as much. 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:59.120 Um, but I think, yeah, I don't think it'll be a bumper crop, but I don't think it'll be disaster. 00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:03.519 But honestly, that helps the almond price when we're having 25. 00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:13.200 I was gonna ask you, uh you know, there's always this tension between growers and beekeepers at the end of pollination of like what's the best best time to get the bees out. 00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:20.320 And obviously, beekeepers they want to move to, I don't know, uh um uh citrus bloom or whatever they want to send them. 00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:21.679 Texas or Florida. 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:22.799 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:25.039 And the growers, they want to keep the bees in. 00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:34.000 Do you think this year it's gonna be even more so because you know they feel like they've lost a few days of a few good days of of pollination. 00:15:34.159 --> 00:15:40.639 Uh would they be more like keen to keep the hives here until the last petal hits the ground? 00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:46.559 I think so, because probably things like definitely the apples in Washington are not ready

yet. 00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:48.000 Um maybe things in Texas. 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:54.320 Of course, the guys in the south, depending on the weather, but usually it's things start early, and they're as soon as they get them back, they get them back. 00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:54.559 Right. 00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:56.159 Especially the East Coast guys. 00:15:56.399 --> 00:16:05.919 But with this year, with how much rain, and you can see, you know, there's mustard, there's fiddleneck, the fillery's blooming, the bees will do something this year after almonds. 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:08.799 I mean, you can you've seen it driving around Sacramento, for instance. 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:13.360 There's fields of mustard that are this tall because all the rain we had. 00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:13.919 It's beautiful. 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:15.759 So the bees will be doing something after. 00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:17.840 So we're not gonna be in a hurry to get out of here. 00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:18.480 No, no, no. 00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:18.639 Right. 00:16:18.879 --> 00:16:23.600 But we do the citrus will probably come early, and I've already my backyard, my lemon tree does have popcorn. 00:16:24.080 --> 00:16:29.519 So it's like, oh no, but we're not ready yet because we still got to make device and get the bees in the anyway. 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:36.320 So hopefully in these, like today is gonna be in the 70s, so yeah, we don't want you don't want too much heat. 00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:48.879 So that's why the bloom, I think we're we're you're normally in the 60s, and honestly, pretty cold mornings, you know, and you're getting that afternoon flight on a normal year, and that's why the bloom lasts longer. 00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:51.360 Yeah, boy, this one went faster. 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:51.679 Yeah. 00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:53.360 Yeah, it does feel like that. 00:16:53.600 --> 00:17:00.799 And do you think that um the weather conditions going into pollination with all the fog that we've seen here? 00:17:01.039 --> 00:17:05.119 Do you think that that uh maybe affected the development of the hives? 00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:14.559 Because what I hear from a lot of beekeepers is that the development of the hives going into pollination and even during pollination because of the weather wasn't as good. 00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:18.240 They don't see as much pollen inside the the frames. 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:18.720 Yeah. 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:20.160 Have you seen similar stuff? 00:17:20.319 --> 00:17:20.559 Yeah. 00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:37.599 Um, we lost definitely some days that they could have built that when yeah, we we had so much fog and we always move bees in the morning anyways, because it's a little safer because you have a little bit at first light, you're getting to the almond orchard and you have light to spread out things evenly and blah blah blah. 00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:41.920 It's just safer because you know, the temperature you can still move bees till nine or ten in the morning. 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:48.559 But yeah, I think early with all that rain, they missed you know, January 15th to January 30th. 00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:53.920 They could have brought in more and built stronger, it'd been a little bit bigger for almond bloom. 00:17:54.160 --> 00:18:01.279 And I do think I I told you this before, the three weeks in December, we it's been years since we've had the really bad Thule fog. 00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:04.160 And we had three weeks in December, it was bad. 00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:04.640 Yeah. 00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:08.559 And there was pollen patties, like the four, third, fourth pollen patty we gave them. 00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:10.240 A lot of the highs didn't finish them. 00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:14.240 They were down to like a little quarter pieces and it just molded out and they stopped eating it. 00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:14.640 Really? 00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:17.599 We threw it out when we came back in January for the last pollen patty. 00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:18.480 So that hurt them. 00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:22.079 I think we lost a couple frames um just being out here. 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:25.440 So I mean, the guys in the sheds, you don't have to worry about that, right? 00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:25.920 Sure. 00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:29.440 But I know there's issues like last year, some guys that went to the sheds. 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:31.599 So our model is we're doing it down here. 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:39.519 Right, but also the guys coming out of the sheds, a lot of them, you know, they they leave the sheds late in December or early in January, they come here. 00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:42.319 It was still very foggy during that time. 00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:43.279 Yep. 00:18:43.519 --> 00:18:45.119 Um, yeah. 00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:50.960 Yeah, it'll be really interesting to see what the actual results of the crop are going to be in in six months or so. 00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:51.440 Yeah. 00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:53.920 Um if you can trust the numbers. 00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:54.880 Yeah, right. 00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:57.920 Because last year, how can you be off by that much? 00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:03.839 I mean, you're saying 2.93 billion pound crops and it ends up being what, 2.5 to 2.6? 00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:04.400 Right. 00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:05.279 The latest area. 00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:06.079 I mean, wow. 00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:08.160 I'm sure your dad taught you that as well. 00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:11.680 Uh my dad taught me you you you count your money in the bank, right? 00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:12.319 Yeah, yeah. 00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:16.720 So uh yeah, I mean, people people make a lot of estimations. 00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:20.000 Um, but we'll see what the crop is actually going to be. 00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:20.960 It'll be interesting. 00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:21.200 Yeah. 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:21.599 Yeah. 00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:23.200 I just came back from Australia.

00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:26.480 It seems like the they're setting a pretty good crop. 00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:30.480 They're starting uh harvest now over there. 00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:36.400 And um it looks like a nice crop, but again, who knows until they can count it all. 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:46.240 Um and what did you think about the overall um um hive's condition for this year? 00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:52.079 I mean, last year obviously we've had a huge disaster across the industry. 00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:54.240 I mean, some people were not affected as hard. 00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:55.920 It always it's always like that. 00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:07.039 There's always gonna be the odd ones out, but as as an industry, there were discussions about 300 to 500,000 hives short, right? 00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:10.160 Um compared to a normal year. 00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:16.240 Um do you think was that like a one-time thing? 00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:18.720 Is this the new reality? 00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:27.680 What I just think it there's so much uncertainty, and those hives are like black boxes, and some people share data and some people don't. 00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:36.000 And the losses are so operational, operation specific that it's just you don't know. 00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:45.200 And I know we've tried to, and Project Apisam wants to get like a clearinghouse of data and and you know, can we forecast and stuff? 00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:50.079 It's just and you know, you try to get surveys and information out of beekeepers, very tough. 00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:58.000 A lot of them are very independent and don't want to, a lot of operations don't go to bee conventions or talk to other people and don't share anything. 00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:03.039 So I, to be honest, I don't think I don't think that was a one-off. 00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:05.039 I think definitely it could happen again. 00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:12.799 I mean, our operation last year was well below the average, thank goodness, but two, three years ago we were above the average. 00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:16.319 And you know, there's so many different variables on the strength. 00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:18.400 Our strength wasn't quite as good as last year. 00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:20.400 Our bees were really good last year this way. 00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:22.000 They were probably a little bit less. 00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:25.839 But man, it's so operational specific. 00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:36.720 And you know, some of the guys I talked to that are really good beekeepers that had big losses last year did the exact same thing this year and came out of the sheds with like 8% lost, 12% lost. 00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:43.119 And what is you know, uh yeah, a lot of it is environmental influences, weather. 00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:45.359 Yeah, it's just I I don't know. 00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:53.599 I mean, I years ago, well, when I was president of HPA, I talked to our lawyers and I really kind of wanted to do an HPA forecast. 00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:55.200 Like, was it Blue Diamond? 00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:57.119 Does like an almond pollination forecast? 00:21:57.279 --> 00:21:57.440 Yep. 00:21:57.680 --> 00:21:59.759 I wanted to do like what's gonna be the highest. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:07.680 Forecast the hive count going into almonds, and they said, No, no, no, no, that's antitrust, that's price fixing, you cannot do that. 00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:30.000 And I really wanted to because I think our group has a vast majority of the commercial beekeepers and hives representing the United States, yeah, and we have a good listening kind of a group and to forecast, like, hey, this is gonna be bad, this is gonna be because you see, like you always have the guys that say the sky's falling, right, and the other guys say no, no, we're good, and then at the we don't know until the very end. 00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:31.920 Like last year we were short. 00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:37.200 I was putting bees into orchards for friends that had no bees in it. 00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:37.920 Right. 00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:44.640 And and uh there were a lot of reports too about you know, the boxes were there, but there wasn't too much in them. 00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:47.920 Um yeah. 00:22:48.319 --> 00:23:19.359 And I you know, I thought I think um I think I talked to you about that last year, uh, right after, and I thought that uh there was also a little bit of like the um I thought that beekeeper, a lot of beekeepers just felt more comfortable last year to to speak freely about their losses, because a few big and more prominent beekeepers did say that they were having huge losses. 00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:32.559 Uh and and then a lot of others that normally don't feel comfortable to talk if if they if they're losing, if everybody else is saying, oh, we're we're doing great this year, then they also want to say we're doing great even though they're not. 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:39.759 So I'm not saying that it was just that I like clearly there was an issue, a big issue last year, right? 00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:47.119 But uh, but I think that it might have been a part of it, um which I see is a good thing. 00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:53.279 Like I think it's I think it's good that people feel comfortable to come forward with what they actually have. 00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:54.240 It helps everyone. 00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:55.759 I agree, I agree. 00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:57.920 But most people don't want to do that, though. 00:23:58.319 --> 00:23:58.559 Yeah, yeah. 00:23:58.880 --> 00:23:59.759 That's the problem. 00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:07.119 Um and I think you kind of mentioned it uh um a little bit earlier. 00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:15.519 But do you see that bees are fundamentally weaker nowadays compared to a decade ago or two decades ago? 00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:16.400 100%. 00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:19.920 100% weaker and it's harder to get them to where they are. 00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:24.799 Yeah,

just they're the weather can take them down, just like I mentioned the three weeks of fog. 00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:27.759 Early 2000s, it was like that down here in the valley. 00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:32.000 And the bees would come through it no problem, and we weren't even putting pollen patties on back then. 00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:37.599 So just yeah, the Varroa virus complex is is just worse than it's ever been. 00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:43.279 The virus loads that they're having, and just more mite treatments to keep the mites under control. 00:24:43.759 --> 00:24:46.319 Yeah, just they're weaker than they've ever been. 00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:56.720 And so d do you think because we we do see that uh you know more growers are now planting cover crops like we see here. 00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:14.160 Uh I think it's still small numbers, but we do get uh a bit more uh uh tailwind, which is which is good, but overall nutrition that's available for bees today, is it is it still good or it's also declining? 00:25:14.319 --> 00:25:18.559 And I'm not j just talking about here in California, I'm talking about you know, just in general. 00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:26.000 I can remember going, I mean, we always live in the past, but 20 years ago, like there's vineyards around Fresno, Madeira, Clovis. 00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:29.920 You'd have beautiful, beautiful wildflowers. 00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:36.240 And now with water being so precious and expensive and Sigma and the restrictions, you do not see that. 00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:44.160 Everything is sprayed down, every drop goes to that vine or goes to that tree, and you just don't see the habitat like it used to. 00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:49.200 Yeah, it's cool that there is some almond growers doing it, but what about after that? 00:25:49.519 --> 00:25:49.839 Sure. 00:25:50.799 --> 00:25:56.240 Yeah, there's still open fields that have wildflowers blooming, but it's not like what it used to be. 00:25:56.480 --> 00:25:58.160 And the same in the Dakotas. 00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:04.240 Um CRP is way below millions and millions of acres below what it used to be. 00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:17.920 Um yes, there's these a few farmers here and there that are using the CRP 42 and the pollinator-friendly habitat, but no, the overall habitat is down from what it used to be, in my opinion. 00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:41.440 And a lot of people after last year, a lot of people were talking about uh how the industry is not gonna be able to jump back for this year just because the losses were so big, and and all of a sudden a lot of queen breeders didn't have enough material to work with, and uh guys that sell packaged bees didn't have enough bees to package and and to pack and send. 00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:51.119 Um, but it does feel like it was like all in all, we were able as an industry to come back to normal numbers. 00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:51.839 Yeah. 00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:59.839 Several, more than several beekeepers did not get back to their numbers which they were before the law. 00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:08.559 And so you would have thought that there would have been another shortage this year, but I think there was no shortage. 00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:17.279 Well interesting say there was no shortage on paper, you know, there's probably a lot of boxes out there that don't have very good reasons or no reason. 00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:23.920 Um because people I've talked to at the very end, you know, now that it's pretty much done. 00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:27.279 If you had good hives, you got rented, there was no good hives available. 00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:42.160 You know, if you had three or four framers, it didn't go to cherries or definitely and uh the the cost of rebuilding hives um has has it changed over time as well? 00:27:42.319 --> 00:27:47.599 Like is it it keeps increasing, price of queens packages keep going up? 00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:52.000 Is it all related to just uh the price of labor or supply and demand? 00:27:52.160 --> 00:27:56.960 Right and California doesn't help that you have such well Hawaii either. 00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:06.160 Hawaii is very expensive to live there and to pay you know wages and same in California and the majority of Queens in Northern California, Hawaii. 00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:11.359 Um yeah, and plus they don't last you know a year or two years. 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:17.279 We're replacing almost every queen every year. 00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:27.680 Yeah, I mean regulations, more and more California$5 where we go North Dakota to three something. 00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:29.039 Yeah, that adds up. 00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:30.480 Yeah, it all adds up. 00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:38.400 So how capital intensive is it to run these? 00:28:39.759 --> 00:28:42.079 It's really very capital intensive. 00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:51.839 Labor, like how we've talked about you have to have more guys to run those uh every thousand hives, you have to have more guys than what you did 10, 20, 30 years ago. 00:28:52.079 --> 00:29:00.319 Just because of all the all the inputs to keep the hives alive, from palm patties to more mite treatments to everything. 00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:02.880 It's just very capital intensive. 00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:07.680 Um and and generally speaking, you're getting paid twice a year, right? 00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:10.880 Like you're getting paid for almonds, you're getting paid for uh honey. 00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:11.519 Yep. 00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:14.960 Um you know, there's the ELAP and stuff like that. 00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:16.640 We we might talk about it later. 00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:17.039 Yeah. 00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:28.160 Um but um but generally speaking, you got two points of payment during the year you spent constantly throughout the year. 00:29:28.559 --> 00:29:30.559 How it's it's very risky. 00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:36.079 So what's the level of tolerance to risk that a beekeeper needs today? 00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:42.079

Well, yeah, we have a little bit of other people do pollination too, like we do apple pollination. 00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:44.880 It doesn't pay for very much, but it helps get through the year. 00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:47.359 Kind of covers for the for the trip up north. 00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:51.599 The trips up the north and make a little bit and make divides and stuff. 00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:52.960 But yeah, it's tough. 00:29:53.039 --> 00:30:02.799 It's the luckily, like I'm saying, it we have a paid for business that has been passed down. 00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:06.400 That's why you have so many generational family beekeeping operations. 00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:06.640 Yeah. 00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:20.319 But um but it's just interesting that private equity is getting involved now into buying B operations to be vertically interfer integrated like Wonderful or or uh Sweet Harvest and Sweet River. 00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:32.160 Um it's just yeah, obviously they they see you can make money, but I think they probably wouldn't be doing it if they didn't have the ELAP payments, probably in the rainfall, regul the rainfall insurance. 00:30:32.559 --> 00:30:38.480 Because the price of honey is it's above cost, not that much above cost of production. 00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:41.279 Um so you still you know if you have a big crop, you're good. 00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:45.519 If you have a small crop, you're relying on almond pollination to get through the year. 00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:50.319 And some guys probably have to skimp on inputs um to make it through. 00:30:50.559 --> 00:30:57.440 But yeah, I mean it's you're not gonna get rich off ELAP or or rainfall, but you when you need it, you need it. 00:30:57.680 --> 00:31:00.240 And it helps people rebuild to get to the next year. 00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:00.480 Yeah. 00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:02.079 Which should be, you know. 00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:09.519 But I just it's funny the other day I was in, well, this week I was in the Madeira office and I didn't realize there's another almond payment I qualified for. 00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:12.160 I have crop insurance for these, but there's another supplemental. 00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:21.119 So it just seems like the the the farmers, the row crop, other all other commodities seem to have a lot more protection than what the beekeeping has. 00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:21.279 Yeah. 00:31:21.519 --> 00:31:23.279 Just like there's all these different programs. 00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:29.359 But um, I think you need it all pretty much to stay afloat and moving forward. 00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:40.000 Yeah, I mean we're not, you know, the big a big honey crop we had 12 years ago, one of our biggest ones, yeah, it went a lot farther than it does now. 00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:40.160 Yeah. 00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:46.319 Because we're doing more pollen patties, more crane replacement, we have more labor, and labor constantly went up. 00:31:46.480 --> 00:32:00.480 But the best thing actually, like the the AEWR for our H2A visa that actually went down a little bit this year, because the Department of Labor acknowledged that they were including some housing into their payment where they shouldn't have been, because we pay the housing. 00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:02.960 So that was kind of unfair to the domestic workers. 00:32:03.039 --> 00:32:10.079 But, anyways, um, so that was finally relief because it's been like seven, eight straight years of that going up and up and up. 00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:10.319 Yeah. 00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:17.440 And all those visa guys come in and which very dependent on are you know, but they're not paying taxes, they're not paying their housing. 00:32:17.599 --> 00:32:19.680 So it was kind of unfair that they were getting that. 00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:22.799 So finally we got a little bit of relief there, that'll help. 00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:33.839 And um with with with all that risk that's uh involved and a lot of a lot of uncertainty, right, that that exists in this industry. 00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:40.960 Is it difficult for beekeepers to get uh loans or to get money out of a bank? 00:32:41.440 --> 00:32:52.880 I think m maybe sometimes if you if you own own properties, if you have an almond orchard, it might be easier to take a loan against those things, but but let's say you don't have that. 00:32:53.519 --> 00:32:55.519 How how difficult is it? 00:32:55.599 --> 00:33:04.880 How how does the the financial institutions look at the property because yeah, I think they want to see live hives, and that's the value of the operations live hives. 00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:09.680 Yeah, there's a value in the equipment, the shops, the extractors, the forklift, the trucks. 00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:17.440 Um but everybody that I know seems to be able to get their operational loans unless they're in really bad shape. 00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:22.799 I I've have heard I've had heard some have given up and just sold out and said, I'm done with this. 00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:26.000 You know, low honey prices, high losses. 00:33:26.480 --> 00:33:39.279 Um and I understand that, but I think if you still are, you know, in a decent honey crop doing pollination, I still think you can qualify for some. 00:33:40.720 --> 00:33:40.880 Right. 00:33:41.920 --> 00:33:53.279 And uh you were talking about uh you know the PEs coming into the market and now some some uh beekeeping outfits are becoming big. 00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:58.799 Do you think that you know the scale-up is gonna be necessary for the industry in the long run? 00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:02.240 Like, do you see this as a it's good for the industry? 00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:05.200 Uh um is this gonna change anything, I guess. 00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:08.079 I that's a good question, I mean I don't know. 00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:18.719 I mean, it seemed like when Wonderful got into it, it didn't take people were worried they were gonna come in and steal B yards from your neighbors and all

this, and it looked like for the most part that didn't happen. 00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:27.360 They definitely had, and you know that, four or five years rough patch, yeah, a lot of high, big high losses until they kind of dial things in. 00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:35.599 Um, they've chosen not to really participate on a national level, like with our lobbying and for honey prices and they kept to themselves. 00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:38.400 They kept themselves, like our anti-dumping suit, they kept to themselves. 00:34:38.480 --> 00:34:43.519 They did they just avoided that, which is you know, they're a big honey producer, which is kind of interesting. 00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:56.880 Now, the private equity side of things, which is fairly new, yeah, I I just think you're gonna see some inefficiencies and some high losses too, because that's part. 00:34:57.440 --> 00:35:11.039 We we struggle, you know, and I have brothers that we all run the bees the same way, yeah, and you know, 10, 20-year employees that know how we do things, but we still are suffering the losses we have. 00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:13.599 So you you're scaling that up. 00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:22.159 You've got to have good crews that are remaining with those operations to keep them running at a high level. 00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:26.719 I think I think that I think it's gonna be a big steep learning curve for private equity. 00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:27.360 For sure. 00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:28.239 For sure. 00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:35.599 But uh look at the same time, I'm assuming they're looking at it as also like uh you're not putting all your eggs in one basket, right? 00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:40.639 Because they're gonna buy an operation North Dakota, an operation Florida, Louisiana, Florida, whatever. 00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:41.840 It's just California, yeah. 00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:43.039 That's what they did, yeah. 00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:54.639 Um and uh you know it's interesting because for many, many, many years the 80s were like the symbol of you know the largest commercial beekeepers in the world, really. 00:35:54.880 --> 00:35:57.519 Yeah, for 40 years or something, I think probably, yeah. 00:35:57.760 --> 00:36:04.480 And all of a sudden you have uh you have at least two other outfits that are up there, you know. 00:36:04.639 --> 00:36:05.119 Yeah. 00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:05.760 Yeah. 00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:06.639 It's interesting. 00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:08.320 You know, it is, yeah. 00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:19.199 I think it's yeah, I think and I and you know, part of it there are there are questions because it's tied to the honey, and you know, they import a lot of honey. 00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:26.960 And and there's you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of rumor in the industry, but it's like whatever do they really need all that honey? 00:36:27.039 --> 00:36:28.960 Are they gonna pack all that American honey? 00:36:29.599 --> 00:36:32.079 And well, I guess it remains to be seen. 00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:37.599 I mean, because it's it's an interesting model, but there's yeah, there's definitely skeptics, I guess. 00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:41.760 There's a there's a there always gonna will be, yeah. 00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:56.320 Um you think commercial beekeeping is still, you know, in terms of uh characteristics, I guess, a family business or more of a industrial agriculture type? 00:36:56.559 --> 00:36:58.159 Oh, it's still a family business. 00:36:58.239 --> 00:37:01.599 I mean, I mean it's amazing when you see the almond numbers. 00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:11.760 I can't remember off the top of my head, I guess I should have had it ready, but it's like the vast majority still of almond groves are owned by families with 100 acres or less. 00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:12.079 Right. 00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:14.079 I mean, it's like 70% or something. 00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:16.320 I think it's the same in the beekeeping industry. 00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:23.760 Like if you look at the hives, you know, the vast majority are still family-owned operations, multi-generational. 00:37:23.920 --> 00:37:25.760 And I yeah, and I think that's good. 00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:26.320 Yeah. 00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:42.480 And from what you see, and obviously you have your personal experience, but also just generally in in the industry, um, the relationships with the growers that you pollinate for, are they transactional or more of a long-term relationship? 00:37:42.639 --> 00:37:43.440 Or maybe both. 00:37:43.519 --> 00:37:43.920 I don't know. 00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:47.199 Maybe it's I I I treat it as a long-term. 00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:59.679 Like I make sure that I they have hives that'll pollinate their crop, and if not, I'll bring extra hives, or if I don't, if I'm short, I'll bring someone else's hives to cover to make sure I'm taking care of them. 00:37:59.840 --> 00:38:13.199 Um and a lot of our guys we've been with for years and years, that we don't do inspections, and we only have like two guys left that do inspections because they they trust us, they see good beef light, and they've had multiple years of good crops. 00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:13.519 Yeah. 00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:14.800 And there's no problem. 00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:26.239 And I I kind of think, I mean, that's that's how you probably should run it, is that you have this good relationship and that you take care of them and they take care of you, that they're gonna pay on time or fairly close on time. 00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:35.039 And and I, you know, over the years we we several growers have had a tough time paying, and we've been like, well, okay, it's fine, you don't pay us till July, August, September. 00:38:35.199 --> 00:38:47.840 It's one time, a couple times, you know, December, January, almost a full year for the pay to their almond pollination, but it's gotta be a give and take, yeah, because there's gonna be struggles for them just like there's struggles for us. 00:38:48.079 -->

00:38:48.559 Of course. 00:38:49.360 --> 00:39:07.519 And um is there are there still misunderstandings from from the grower's perspective towards the risks that beekeepers are taking, the way that they operate, or do growers generally understand the way that beekeepers operate? 00:39:07.840 --> 00:39:09.599 I think it's better than what it used to be. 00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:21.679 The Almond Board has done a very good job, like at the conference and other meetings, you know, focusing on beehive health, focusing on the problems and industry issues like we have. 00:39:21.920 --> 00:39:33.039 I mean, I heard Trophy might was said at the Almond Conference and future problems, and you know, that's good that they're aware of that because definitely they need us, you know, just like we need them. 00:39:33.440 --> 00:39:40.400 Um I think, yeah, the it needs to definitely be a two-way street communication. 00:39:40.639 --> 00:39:52.239 And I think your good growers that you've dealt with, they understand that you have awesome strong ears, and some years you're not as quite quite as good as the previous year, but they still stick with you and you stick with them. 00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:58.320 Um, I've had a grower like even this year say, hey, the neighbor's bees are flying better than yours, and da-da-da. 00:39:58.559 --> 00:40:11.599 And I'm like, well, here let's go look at them, and and you know, showing the frame counts and saying, Yeah, I mean, just like every and and that's one thing over the years I've explained is like, you know, every tree in the orchard is not gonna be the same. 00:40:11.840 --> 00:40:12.000 Sure. 00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:18.000 You're gonna have bads with bad soil, and some places are better soil, some are taller, some are smaller. 00:40:18.239 --> 00:40:25.760 Same thing with beehives out in the field, they're not gonna be uniform because they I always get that question on flight, you know, how come they're not uniform? 00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:26.719 That one's really flying good. 00:40:26.800 --> 00:40:34.400 This one's not as good because the things aren't uniform with livestock, you know, some are stronger than others, and I've multiple times just kind of told that narrative. 00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:42.480 And also when you when you look at a hive at like a very specific moment in the day, it's very hard to make a comparison. 00:40:42.719 --> 00:40:43.039 Yeah. 00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:44.960 Uh so yeah. 00:40:45.280 --> 00:40:49.920 And yeah, and then you know, you see a lot of hives around that are singles and just one nook. 00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:53.679 So you're like, well, the max you can ever get is like nine frames in that thing. 00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:57.440 Sure, ten, versus a double deep or people that use eight framers. 00:40:57.519 --> 00:40:57.840 Yep. 00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:01.039 Or the B-wise technology boxes. 00:41:01.199 --> 00:41:04.400 I mean, you we you just don't know how many frames, right? 00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:06.559 Unless there's transparency and yeah. 00:41:06.880 --> 00:41:07.440 Right. 00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:12.719 And um I want to talk to you uh about uh about honey. 00:41:13.599 --> 00:41:18.960 A bit more the honey market, and I think you've been very involved with a lot of it over the the last years. 00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:27.440 Um first of all, do you think that honey is still a standalone business, or is it more like a supporting revenue stream for commercial beekeepers? 00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:32.480 Um I it's definitely not standalone. 00:41:32.719 --> 00:41:35.360 Uh I think you you really gotta have both. 00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:37.840 You gotta have pollination and honey to survive. 00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:38.320 Yeah. 00:41:38.559 --> 00:41:50.400 Um I think the honey prices um what they should be and what other ag products are, yeah, we should be$3, you know, at least$250 a pound. 00:41:50.719 --> 00:41:51.920 Or we're well below that. 00:41:52.079 --> 00:41:52.400 Right. 00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:58.559 And um I think it just goes back to kind of that kind of like the meat packing. 00:41:58.639 --> 00:41:59.519 We're seeing it now. 00:41:59.599 --> 00:42:01.840 And my farmers in North Dakota are super happy. 00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:03.360 Price of beef is way up. 00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:08.400 But as soon as Trump said something about Argentine, more Argentine beef coming in, they're up in arms. 00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:12.320 And well, it's we feel exactly the same with a lot of this foreign honey coming in. 00:42:12.400 --> 00:42:13.920 I mean, it's competing with us. 00:42:14.239 --> 00:42:19.760 So the so the the biggest impact is is importation of foreign honey. 00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:26.880 Yeah, I mean, just I mean, the numbers are incredible that we used to supply 60 to 70 percent, you know, 30 years ago. 00:42:27.039 --> 00:42:29.039 Now we're down to 20, 30 percent. 00:42:29.199 --> 00:42:29.840 It's crazy. 00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:31.119 And the price hasn't gone up. 00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:41.360 You would think a scarce commodity would have pushed the price for domestic honey up, and especially with the the importance of beekeepers for the national food supply. 00:42:41.440 --> 00:42:41.599 Yeah. 00:42:41.840 --> 00:42:44.719 Do you want to import your food or do you want to have it grown here? 00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:46.639 And for COVID, it taught us anything. 00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:50.639 You want to have more resilient supply chain domestically. 00:42:50.960 --> 00:42:56.079 But um I think that the overall consumption of honey here has gone up. 00:42:56.320 --> 00:42:59.360 It's higher than than what is being produced in America. 00:42:59.679 --> 00:43:00.079 Oh, yeah. 00:43:00.239 --> 00:43:00.639 Okay, yeah. 00:43:00.880 --> 00:43:02.960 So you you got you have to import. 00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:03.920 We have to import. 00:43:04.239 --> 00:43:08.239 But you're saying let's just put limitations on on how we do it or do

it fairly. 00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:11.039 I mean, it's um yeah. 00:43:12.639 --> 00:43:17.440 There's guys that are sitting on honey and we're this short of of the national food supply. 00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:27.119 I mean, for the honey consumption, that you would think they could get a good enough price, but they're choosing the cheaper foreign product over us. 00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:28.400 I mean, it's just sad. 00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:30.480 I mean, um, yeah. 00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:38.639 I think a lot of people don't really understand, like they see honey on the shelf and they might not even even think of like, am I buying an American honey? 00:43:38.719 --> 00:43:39.519 or Right. 00:43:40.079 --> 00:43:47.440 We're working with, I mean, that's one of our things this year, our Honey Integrity Act with the you know, country of origin labeling, just like beef. 00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:53.599 I mean, we want transparency and so the consumer knows it's foreign honey and have it at prominence on there. 00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:56.559 So they just don't look at the price of the of the jar. 00:43:56.719 --> 00:43:56.960 Yeah. 00:43:57.119 --> 00:44:04.719 Um I mean it was kind of sad that when I tend to For our anti-dumping suit for the you know the International Trade Commission. 00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:12.480 Um the General Mills and Post and Smithfield Foods and the others, you know, there was a quote. 00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:21.119 One of the one of the commissioners, one of the judges said, Well, well, I see in the past honey naturios was Florida, Su B honey. 00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:21.760 What happened there? 00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:24.800 It's like, oh no, we've got to have that Indian honey for the taste. 00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:26.800 I was like, it had nothing to do with taste. 00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:30.639 It's all about the bottom line and that vice president making his quota. 00:44:31.119 --> 00:44:32.960 And I'm like, well, at what expense? 00:44:33.039 --> 00:44:39.039 You're an American company, and you're, you know, you're actually sort changing the American consumer. 00:44:39.199 --> 00:44:56.559 Not that all imports are fake or bad, they're not, but there we do know there's some adulteration, and we do know there's some syrups mixed in and darker honey, that the quality is most likely not as good as ours, or it's been scrubbed so much with resin technology that it's not honey by definition anymore. 00:44:56.800 --> 00:44:59.199 That why wouldn't you pay a little more? 00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:11.360 I mean, the American consumer would most likely pay a little more if they knew it was, you know, benefiting America as a whole and you know the integrity of our food supply. 00:45:11.519 --> 00:45:13.039 Um, we are working on that. 00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:17.599 There's a brand new group started with you know, try to promote American honey. 00:45:18.239 --> 00:45:19.599 So we'll see how it goes. 00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:21.599 We got leaders from all

other industries. 00:45:22.159 --> 00:45:34.159 People ask me all the time, uh um how how do uh how when they're in the supermarket, like how can they uh choose like good honey? 00:45:34.320 --> 00:45:40.960 And like, look, first of all, always the best thing is like find find the beekeeper and buy directly from the beekeeper. 00:45:41.199 --> 00:45:49.039 Everybody like the beekeeper is gonna be the happiest, is gonna make the most money out of it, and you know for fair for sure you're getting an American product. 00:45:49.440 --> 00:46:00.800 Uh but if you still want to go to the supermarket, what what are your like what the American consumer should be looking for uh when they're trying to get a bottle of honey? 00:46:01.039 --> 00:46:03.679 Well, definitely straight for the beekeeper farmer's market, the best. 00:46:03.760 --> 00:46:11.039 If you can't do that, I would buy USA honey only unless you have a trusted source that's not. 00:46:11.199 --> 00:46:14.719 Um Is there is that gonna be on the labels always? 00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:21.599 Yeah, if you have to hunt and peck for it, yeah, because sometimes it's fine print, but the price usually ref reflects it. 00:46:21.760 --> 00:46:27.360 But anytime you see a blend of four or five countries, I most likely stay away from it. 00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:33.280 You're not gonna be hurt by it or anything, but you're probably be you know you might be cheated with some par or syrups in that honey. 00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:33.599 Yeah. 00:46:33.760 --> 00:46:38.159 We just encourage you, yeah, just to have USA, USA, Canada. 00:46:38.320 --> 00:46:40.559 That is just better and safer. 00:46:40.639 --> 00:46:42.559 And I think the quality is better too. 00:46:42.639 --> 00:46:43.280 So right. 00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:46.559 Yeah, you you mentioned the uh anti-dumping. 00:46:46.880 --> 00:46:56.559 Um I know you you've had um a few really good achievements uh over the past couple of years. 00:46:57.039 --> 00:47:00.400 What what is your main focus uh right now? 00:47:00.719 --> 00:47:05.440 I I mean you're still involved with it, like the the the association is still involved with it too. 00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:06.159 Yeah. 00:47:06.400 --> 00:47:18.320 Um I think that like I mentioned, the Honey Integrity Act, if if if we can get some changes in the in the labeling, that might move the needle some. 00:47:18.559 --> 00:47:23.119 Um like the US USDA grade A really doesn't mean much. 00:47:23.360 --> 00:47:34.239 You can have a jar that's 99.9% Indian honey right next to a jar that's 100% American and it's water white, beautiful tasting honey, it's still USDA grade A. 00:47:34.400 --> 00:47:36.719 We kind of want to trade, you know, copy Canada. 00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:43.119 Canada adopted if it's like 90% or more, it has that Canada number one. 00:47:43.199 --> 00:47:47.440 And if it's below that, it's just not it doesn't have that number one. 00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:49.119 So 90%. 00:47:49.599 --> 00:47:50.559

Yeah, I think it's 90%. 00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:51.920 I can't remember exactly. 00:47:52.400 --> 00:47:56.079 So I mean, and and just you know, educating the consumer. 00:47:56.320 --> 00:48:05.440 I mean, we're we, you know, there's so many cereals and granola bars and honey, you know, hams that have honey in it, and that's great, and that's fine. 00:48:05.679 --> 00:48:19.519 But the the stuff that we're going for is that private label, good honey that's gonna sit on your table that you're gonna have with your muffins or your smoothie or whatever it is, we want that to be your cup of tea, we want that to be American honey. 00:48:19.599 --> 00:48:20.000 Yep. 00:48:20.239 --> 00:48:26.079 From American producers that is, you know, providing those bees for the national food supply. 00:48:26.239 --> 00:48:26.559 Yeah. 00:48:26.800 --> 00:48:27.519 So, yeah. 00:48:27.920 --> 00:48:28.320 Totally. 00:48:28.719 --> 00:48:30.159 It's been a tough nut to crack. 00:48:30.239 --> 00:48:37.760 I mean, I mean, we've tried for how you know all the predecessors before me, 20, 30 years of trying to get a standard of identity, can't get it. 00:48:37.920 --> 00:48:40.079 Um, and definitely there's pushback. 00:48:40.159 --> 00:48:44.800 But I mean I'm sure you've had conversations about this with the almond board, right? 00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:51.440 Because the almond board obviously did an amazing job, you know, pushing almonds to the front. 00:48:51.679 --> 00:48:54.400 Yeah, healthy snack option, yes. 00:48:54.559 --> 00:48:57.920 And the almond milk thing, oh yeah, that's incredible. 00:48:58.239 --> 00:49:00.639 We're we're we're trying to achieve the same. 00:49:00.719 --> 00:49:13.840 I mean, it'd be great if people look at honey like they do wine, like, oh, this year, this vintage came from this taste, from this part of North Dakota or this valley in California has this sage or blah blah blah. 00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:16.800 Kind of like with New Zealand and the Manuka honey or whatever. 00:49:16.880 --> 00:49:17.039 Right. 00:49:17.199 --> 00:49:23.440 I would love it if people would be like, private label, this year was an extremely awesome clover year. 00:49:23.599 --> 00:49:28.400 You're gonna have that cinnamon blended mild taste from these bottles. 00:49:28.480 --> 00:49:30.800 And then when the shelf is gone, it runs out. 00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:35.679 And then you like in Australia, I have a friend that you know, her honey, when it's gone, it's gone. 00:49:35.840 --> 00:49:36.320 Yeah, yeah. 00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:39.199 And it and it and it's empty until they come back. 00:49:39.440 --> 00:49:48.159 Yeah, in Australia they have a few different uh types of honey that are considered to be a lot more uh popular, like people really want to buy them. 00:49:48.320 --> 00:49:48.719 Yep. 00:49:48.880 --> 00:49:50.400 Um, yeah, it's interesting. 00:49:50.559 --> 00:49:51.199 Yeah. 00:49:51.679 --> 00:49:55.679 So what keeps you up at night? 00:49:56.239 --> 00:50:04.719 It doesn't just not just honey, it can be anything, you know, but uh yeah, the yeah, there's been many nights, the price of honey, what can we do? 00:50:05.039 --> 00:50:08.800 What you know there, you know, we we've done a lot of different things. 00:50:08.960 --> 00:50:13.440 I mean, HPA, we chase down all leads, even if some of them are bad. 00:50:13.599 --> 00:50:19.760 I mean, we've we've met with billionaires, we've met with, you know, everybody on Capitol Hill, sure. 00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:23.119 Influencers, blah, blah, blah, social media. 00:50:23.360 --> 00:50:31.280 Um, but yeah, solving the you know, getting a fair honey price would really relieve a lot of the problems that we have. 00:50:31.679 --> 00:50:42.000 Even regardless if almond acreage goes down with the water issues or the new self-fertile varieties become more popular and there's less hives required for almonds. 00:50:42.159 --> 00:50:53.119 It probably won't be in my generation, but um I also think keeping the hives alive sometimes I think the most stressful part, you know, the spring they're building, the summer you're building, yeah. 00:50:53.360 --> 00:51:00.000 Just you know, the Christmas to January 1st is like bad for us because we're outdoors. 00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:02.159 And I'm sure it's for guys in the sheds too. 00:51:02.239 --> 00:51:04.639 It's just like, what are you coming out of winter with? 00:51:04.719 --> 00:51:08.159 You know, you open up the hive and you have these beautiful hives. 00:51:08.400 --> 00:51:10.719 That's that's probably the one stressful. 00:51:10.960 --> 00:51:11.920 Employees, too. 00:51:12.079 --> 00:51:21.119 There's employees that, you know, you know, you gotta have best guys and you know, try to manage them as best you can, but sometimes they show up, sometimes they don't. 00:51:21.280 --> 00:51:21.440 Yeah. 00:51:21.760 --> 00:51:22.400 Part of it. 00:51:22.880 --> 00:51:23.519 For sure. 00:51:24.159 --> 00:51:29.119 So we're um we're getting pretty close to the end of our conversation. 00:51:29.599 --> 00:51:46.079 Uh and I guess I have two uh questions that are related that I kind of want to ask you, and uh I guess I can combine them together, but do do uh do you see a bright future still for the beekeeping industry? 00:51:46.239 --> 00:51:53.519 And with that, should the younger generation join the workforce, get into beekeeping? 00:51:53.760 --> 00:51:58.079 Um do you see a lot of younger people now getting into it? 00:51:58.159 --> 00:52:04.159 Because I think what's the average uh beekeeper's age was 68 probably a few years ago. 00:52:04.559 --> 00:52:05.119 I don't know. 00:52:05.519 --> 00:52:08.079 Um there's a few young people getting involved. 00:52:08.159 --> 00:52:08.400 Yeah. 00:52:08.559 --> 00:52:14.000 I have a nephew that right now that's involved, and we're getting ready to pass things. 00:52:14.159 --> 00:52:20.159 And yeah, I think I you should I'm still optim, I'm kind of an optimistic guy.

00:52:20.239 --> 00:52:25.119 I think there's optimism, just the amount of technology and new things coming. 00:52:25.199 --> 00:52:30.079 I mean, I feel like I've said that for 10, 20 years, like oh new mite treatment, a new virus, whatever. 00:52:30.239 --> 00:52:33.519 But there are some things that I think will make a ma you know a difference. 00:52:33.679 --> 00:52:34.000 Sure. 00:52:34.239 --> 00:52:40.960 And you would think solving some of the health problems with the bees would be a big, huge leap forward. 00:52:41.199 --> 00:52:42.960 And I definitely think it's possible. 00:52:43.119 --> 00:52:47.840 And kind of the whole bee dying environmental movement, that's helped. 00:52:48.079 --> 00:52:56.159 Of course, you know, forage people are way more aware of spraying pesticides and having things, you know, out for the bees. 00:52:56.320 --> 00:52:58.000 I think all that awareness is great. 00:52:58.079 --> 00:53:07.920 And I think I I still think there's gonna be crops need to be pollinated, and honey is still value, valuable and a healthy option. 00:53:08.159 --> 00:53:13.840 And I'm still optimistic that you know you can make a living doing this hard job. 00:53:14.079 --> 00:53:15.199 Yeah, that's good. 00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:15.840 That's good. 00:53:15.920 --> 00:53:16.639 I'm with you on that. 00:53:16.880 --> 00:53:17.199 Okay. 00:53:17.599 --> 00:53:33.519 Um, okay, so um our last segment for for uh for this uh conversation is something that I do every episode, and it's uh uh 60 seconds between the rows, or literally between the rows now. 00:53:33.840 --> 00:53:37.840 Uh, and uh I'm gonna ask you like rapid fire questions. 00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:38.079 Yep. 00:53:38.320 --> 00:53:40.559 And I need rapid fire answers. 00:53:40.719 --> 00:53:41.840 Don't overthink it. 00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:43.760 Uh hopefully they're gonna be pretty simple. 00:53:43.920 --> 00:53:46.159 This is uh how I tried to do it. 00:53:46.320 --> 00:53:49.039 Uh and I'm gonna I'm gonna try not to get you in trouble too. 00:53:49.280 --> 00:53:49.599 Okay. 00:53:50.800 --> 00:53:56.079 So um one word to describe the commercial beekeeping industry right now. 00:53:59.119 --> 00:53:59.920 Frustrated. 00:54:00.400 --> 00:54:00.719 Okay. 00:54:01.519 --> 00:54:04.079 Um what's a bigger threat for beekeepers? 00:54:04.480 --> 00:54:06.559 Varroa or economics? 00:54:11.679 --> 00:54:13.440 Varroa, I think. 00:54:13.840 --> 00:54:16.480 Uh the most stressful month of the year. 00:54:20.559 --> 00:54:21.920 That's a tough one. 00:54:22.960 --> 00:54:30.239 Because January, January is super stressful with dead house and bad hives, but then time rebuilding everything. 00:54:30.400 --> 00:54:33.840 March is busy as you know, building hives and moving bees in and out. 00:54:34.239 --> 00:54:35.679 Pulling honey is also difficult. 00:54:35.840 --> 00:54:36.079 Yeah. 00:54:36.320 --> 00:54:37.280 But that's fun though. 00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:43.679 It is fun, but then you have to you have to go quickly because you need my treatment right after, and it's like but I'm used to it. 00:54:43.760 --> 00:54:45.280 So I would say January or March. 00:54:45.519 --> 00:54:46.559 Okay, okay. 00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:51.119 Um uh one trait every commercial beekeeper must have. 00:54:51.920 --> 00:54:53.119 Ooh, hardworking. 00:54:53.360 --> 00:54:53.599 Okay. 00:54:53.760 --> 00:54:54.000 Yeah. 00:54:54.159 --> 00:54:55.199 That's a good one. 00:54:55.440 --> 00:54:58.559 Um if you weren't a beekeeper, what would you be? 00:54:59.199 --> 00:55:00.400 That's a good question. 00:55:01.440 --> 00:55:02.239 Probably a grower. 00:55:02.559 --> 00:55:02.800 Okay. 00:55:02.960 --> 00:55:03.280 Yeah. 00:55:04.079 --> 00:55:06.639 One policy you would implement tomorrow. 00:55:09.920 --> 00:55:18.239 How about a price, uh either a quota on honey imports or a price minimum. 00:55:18.639 --> 00:55:18.880 Okay. 00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:19.519 Yeah. 00:55:19.760 --> 00:55:20.079 Okay. 00:55:20.960 --> 00:55:24.719 Um are we too dependent on almonds? 00:55:26.800 --> 00:55:28.159 Is that industry? 00:55:28.320 --> 00:55:28.480 No. 00:55:28.880 --> 00:55:29.679 I don't think so. 00:55:29.920 --> 00:55:30.079 Okay. 00:55:30.239 --> 00:55:34.719 I mean, yeah, we're we're very dependent on it, but there are other pollination events. 00:55:34.880 --> 00:55:38.480 And you know, m people would chase honey more likely to. 00:55:38.719 --> 00:55:39.360 Yeah. 00:55:40.000 --> 00:55:43.280 And um uh what do you prefer personally? 00:55:43.519 --> 00:55:45.119 Pollination or pulling honey? 00:55:45.199 --> 00:55:46.000 I think you already answered. 00:55:46.239 --> 00:55:46.960 Pulling honey. 00:55:47.039 --> 00:55:47.199 Yeah. 00:55:48.320 --> 00:55:51.599 Uh and last question: who operates better? 00:55:51.840 --> 00:55:54.400 Human society or a bee colony? 00:55:55.760 --> 00:55:56.639 Bee colony. 00:55:56.880 --> 00:55:57.760 A bee colony. 00:55:58.000 --> 00:55:58.719 Way more efficient. 00:55:58.960 --> 00:55:59.840 Oh man, yeah. 00:55:59.920 --> 00:56:06.480 Look at the California, the money we spend on homelessness and this and that, and the roads are crap. 00:56:06.719 --> 00:56:13.280 And my starter on my truck had one bolt left of the three bolts holding the starter in my one-time. 00:56:13.360 --> 00:56:13.519 Yeah. 00:56:13.599 --> 00:56:15.440 Look at these roads we drive up and down every day. 00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:16.480 I wonder why. 00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:19.039 Snapped them off. 00:56:19.360 --> 00:56:20.960 So, uh, Chris, that's it. 00:56:21.199 --> 00:56:25.039 Um, this was uh a very grounding conversation. 00:56:25.199 --> 00:56:25.760 Thank you for that. 00:56:25.920 --> 00:56:26.320 No problem. 00:56:26.559 --> 00:56:27.679 I really enjoyed it. 00:56:27.840 --> 00:56:36.719 Um and thank you for walking through all the challenges, the uh realities that commercial beekeeping and and and beekeepers themselves are dealing with right now. 00:56:36.960 --> 00:56:47.039 Uh I think we can agree that bees and beekeepers uh are still going to be a necessity for for human survival in the foreseeable future at least. 00:56:47.280 --> 00:56:56.000 And it's important to keep pushing, finding new solutions, and um adapting to the changing environment because it is changing all the time. 00:56:56.239 --> 00:56:56.559 I agree. 00:56:56.800 --> 00:56:58.000 Uh so again, thank you so much. 00:56:58.159 --> 00:56:58.719 No problem. 00:56:59.039 --> 00:57:01.920 Um that's it for this episode of Between the Rows. 00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:04.639 I'm Taika Not, and uh we'll see you next time.