ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Our take on some of the discussions and work done around mindsets, particularly in the context of math education.   Notes

Carol Dweck and her book Mindset

  Jo Boaler, her book Mathematical Mindset, and her website Youcubed   Sal Khan's blog article The Learning Myth: Why I'll Never Tell My Son He's Smart   Desmos Activities   Research on interventions in online courses     Where to connect with us

https://www.reddit.com/r/benbenandblue/ https://twitter.com/BenBenAndBlue https://www.patreon.com/benbenandblue

Our channels https://www.youtube.com/c/beneater https://www.youtube.com/c/3blue1brown

English
United States

TRANSCRIPT

00:00:00hey welcome to the Ben Ben and blue podcast very happy to have you with us today you are about to listen to a conversation about mindset and education the growth mindset from Carol dweck mathematical mindset from Jo boaler this is a conversation that's been off and had an education circles we take it I think a little bit of a different direction if you've heard of this if you've been part of those circles and know all about this I think there's some new content hear some new ideas or at least our spin on some ideas but if you're not familiar we also do start out by defining me sorts of things and giving just the background of the research so we talked about what kind of mindset leads to students learning more how can we build classrooms as environments to get students to be in the right mindset and able to learn we talk in particular with regard to math education and Science Education and then Bannon blue creating YouTube videos with
00:01:00how they could extend to the ways that they go about creating their YouTube videos so I think you're going to really enjoy the conversation it was a conversation I really enjoyed having with Ben and blue and salt without further Ado will get you into the podcast enjoy
00:01:23so I may not get the background on a why I started thinking about this again most people are familiar with Carol dweck's work and the growth mindset students belief about their ability to improve their ability and something is very highly correlated with their ability to actually prove it so if you take two students and one think so I could get better at math if I try pretty hard that students likely to get better if another student thanks I was born with a certain amount of math ability no matter what I do it's not going to change that's Dooms very unlikely to get better probably as a result of the actual actions that they would take if you don't think your actions are going to make a difference you are going to practice until things that seem like a fair characterization to guess what is one other part came out of that that Carol dweck research which which is that you can change your mind said I think I was going to most exciting piece was what sound only are these two mindsets a fixed mindset which is if you have this fixed mindset you don't believe you can grow and therefore you don't do I perform as well for some people that have a growth mindset believe they can grow but also that they're actually intervention
00:02:22that can be done to take someone who has a fixed mindset and help them develop a growth mindset which then helps them helps them grow another other areas you have the payments fixed mindset you think there's such a thing as a math / said it like a math person or not Masterson growth the growth mindset you think that that can change but then it's very easy to accidentally have a fixed mindset about the premises mindsets right now you talk to someone who has a fixed mindset that in some way or you congratulate someone and having a growth mindset let's say that's almost back into congratulating someone feel like being good at math and like the whole meta question of how do you have a growth mindset about the premise of mindsets I don't know what it feels like there's sort of a date Turtles all the all the way down field here and then South on has the blog post saying as an example of something that can foster a growth mindset or grow a drop by and set so early on tell your kid oh wow you must have worked really hard that puzzle looks
00:03:22complete or you did so good at hockey today or like wow you did really well on your test say You must have worked really hard as opposed to wow I'm so you must be so smart you can smart kind of makes a student believe that all of that was some fixed ability that I just showed off the title of stock on blog post is why I'll never tell my son he's smart what were some of the things pointed out in that research the change one's mind set it's like any open this to learn about the growth mindset so just kind of having what are this conversation that we're having now you know into talking about there are these different mindsets and if you have it fixed mindset these are some signs of you know for example if you if you've ever said like I'm not really a math person that is a scientific Minds have that awareness is it really kind of the start of being able to tell people that that perhaps now you're saying I'm not a math person is something that you can actually change so it so that's kind of the Stars
00:04:22this is Kevin. The Hot Topic main thing in various math education research for even just math Educators Minds what's your take on the whole Jo boaler Carol dweck of The Last 5 Years so what to give a little bit more contact so Carol dweck at Stanford psychology apartment does the growth mindset research which is a little bit more General certainly focuses on education in school to some degree but she goes as far as to talk about in relationships if you're married to someone and you see conflict if you have a growth mindset about your marriage and think like oh we could get better together you're like lean into it if you have a fixed mindset you'll think like I have to go find someone else that like as a perfect match for me because there's no growing this and so she doesn't very general and then I think Jo boaler relative conversation pushes out the book mathematical mindset where she talk specifically about this growth mindset in the context of math education and points out that math is a particular place where we seem to have beliefs about the day
00:05:22daughter's mother like it and seeing her mom like try to calculate the percent tip at something to say all I'm not a math person I've never been good at math and thinking about that in the context of being a particular place where we seem to hold this idea of fixed mindset in and fix the bility and then Circle back to what you was talking about Jo boaler in her book actually points out the development of a math curriculum and math activities that increases student's ability to learn math and I think that's very related to parallel conversations that people have a but there's no point in doing Algebra 2 worksheets where I just Factor polynomials like yeah I learned some Rule and then I'm going to forget it in the future and we kind of think that shouldn't be education any more teachers get very excited about it she's very popular in education circles says okay let's to have these hands on activities where kids are thinking conceptually and they're getting excited about math and we're saying like explore the math it's not about me
00:06:22station it's about learning and everyone has a starting point that they can learn at and what kind of grow and it's all applied there and I think that's the interesting kind of connection in handoff between whacking and boiler in on a specific point that is aside from the main one that you're making there but the whole premise of memorization being like a sign of the old wrong more fixed mindset way of doing things you're like going through some rope thing and tell you have it in muscle memory but really should be more creative art where were just exploring it's a little bit of a risk there where by trying to get people into the attic about the creative side and seeing that they can grow within and things like that you might accidentally not engage with some of the just some of those things where you have to be a little bit wrote about it and you have to go through the motions enough time so that you build the muscle memory but like like I guess it's like exercise and that I'm not doing some sort of repetitious motion you can like building muscle I wonder sometimes the ways that it is implemented in practice in the context of Matt accidentally don't have that same Vibe of doing something repetitively
00:07:22like you are building a muscle even though that sounds sexy I think you fixed mindset vs. growth mindset because you can have a fixed mindset and say why I can never learn my multiplication table by inside and say you know if I practice everyday and I use unfaced repetition or flash card or something or even though I struggled to learn my multiplication tables I can learn them so that that I see is orthogonal nnnn the creativity peace in the same thing as hell I can never make anything interesting versus if I just like play around enough you know something interesting might come come from it so I see this is orthogonal I think where they got tied up is that you know one of the things that folks talk about in her very encouraging growth mindset is and how you give feedback to people until a lot of the feedback is more along the lines of encouragement and rather than saying do this or don't do that or or saying like that's bad or you're smart you know that that type of feedback there is a sort of conflation of the weather. If you're encouraging and your and
00:08:22someone start to Explorer you let them continue to explore I think there's a conflation of that versus like that. Therefore means that rote memorization and then some of those things are are kind of at the opposite pole in it when I think it's two different so I think I'm really close to a grant thinks about this relationship between memorization and graph now that benefit of I think they're at the orthogonal ideas I think the type of person that believes in not numb memorizing and focuses on growth mindset I think that's very highly correlated by Joe Weller like believes in both I think I think I might be highly correlated because some degree the existing school system kind of complaints fixed mindset and wrote practice inside because the existing school system sort of complaints those things that people that are successful that's a outside of the school system and creative like kind of need to develop those other things on their own earliest they have you know in the past and hopefully some of the research what will help some of this yet more mainstream I think another reason that they're conflated if we sort of zoom out and ask why
00:09:21is it the case that math in particular seems more susceptible to fix mindset mentalities than other fields and I'm sure other fields do such a stark difference in how easily different kids seem to get it that you can have a room where one seems to just be picking up on it and one seems just to be taking a really long time getting into it and off in the way that that might look in might be a task that has much more of a flavor of memorization like how quickly is it that you have down solid the method for factoring polynomials or something like that what is special about map in this regard why is it the case that some people seem to be much quicker than others quicker in general or quicker that memorization type tasks I was thinking quicker in general and then because a lot of what is done in school or what has traditionally been done is more of that that memorization side effect of zeroing in on how does the quickness of some students for the apparent quickness that seems inmate at first glance apply to how well they perform on memorization type tasks
00:10:21kids will seem to be faster than others it's just that they've spent more time contemplating patterns and being exposed to certain patterns and ways that you don't always articulate but the mind is good at recognizing math math in particular because it's so full of patterns within it things from one perspective kansiime High information like there's a whole bunch of steps that you need to memorize in order to understand how to factor whatever polynomial might be thrown from another perspective can be very low information if you let your mind well over those patterns and understand how they're linked and really it's only like a handful of things need to keep in mind to be able to factor whatever polynomial comes in those who encourage the creative side as opposed to the memorization side also seem to be pushing for the growth as opposed to the fix that as if those necessarily go with each other in some way one of the strongest symptoms that you see of the Apparently and make distinctions that you might have between students surfaces and a very crisp and distinct way in memorization tasks I think maybe even more so than creativity type tasks seems like if your only goal is to memorize
00:11:21procedure and then implement it feels like everyone should be on the Level Playing Field like how quickly can you get to actually doing that and if this kid was faster than me well there's just something inside him to make some faster than me it doesn't seem like it's a matter of what we really practiced it well before because the whole point would be that this is the first time that the kids are seeing it right in that there was not back to sand of time everyday math particularly things build on each other so much that you're also started getting into the side of your Mastery learning and you're not moving on until you've mastered the prerequisite materials and so I think a lot of times you know one person get something more quickly than another kind of saying the same thing is. If one person is is missing some important prerequisite that I can be a lot harder to come wrap your mind around anything that's being presented and and that can also in a reinforced this illusion that there are Matt people and not people that's the spot I think that's maybe Sal's great point and in different places where you start to believe in a fixed mindset and that you're not good enough like you missed some week of school back through
00:12:21years ago and she don't have the prerequisite skills so you can't get it today and they think like all that other kids getting it so I'm not smart enough and then you kind of just tunnel down this bad Rabbit Hole as opposed to being like I just need to know that. That's probably not cuz I'm stupid it's probably because of some circumstance is that having those prerequisites and how much of it is like having you know the sort of experience in recognizing patterns or or are those the same thing that if you had spent more time with that prerequisite then you would have had those patterns and printed on your mind how much is what brand of saying the same as what would like say salad saying with I think they're linked is that in a lot of other fields like if you don't know what prerequisite it can be very clear like it might just be a vocabulary term you like I haven't been with that word means I just need to like look up what it is but where prerequisite knowledge can give you an advantage in a math context sometimes it's not at all explicit maybe an implicit prerequisite to understanding factoring polynomials is having thought a lot about patterns of like if you multiply 8
00:13:21B * C + D you're a very sweet that you liked it in your distributor things in algebra and it's not just a matter of knowing what those rules are but like your mind having mold over those patterns attack yeah yeah coming into work around that all of that stuff and then when you're in that moment in the class and they're like not getting it for some reason it's not so clear exactly what the prerequisite was or even sometimes there are prerequisites to just sometimes feel like I'm stuck I don't know why there's not a term which you don't know the meaning of that you can go look up or go back to the chapter where that turn was introduced in like read that chapter in the patterns case is because it can be so hard to articulate exactly what is going on in the mind when you feel like you understand a pattern like that very inability to articulate translates to a more muddled notion of defining for the students what it is that they need to know ahead of time like I think this notion of math in grade cumulative and that you really needing those prerequisites
00:14:21every other field what makes math distinct is the opacity of what these really are and said this suggests that in math in particular there's this risk of people developing a fixed mindset because it's not clear why you aren't getting something and you can see other people who are getting it and so then you start to problem solve and saleable wire what are they doing that's different than me what's different about them than me and then that feeds to this idea of like well I must not be a bad person precisely mathematical mindset in particular we should mention we should put in the show notes youcubed.org you you is the place where Joe ball are kind of puts all of her resources and in the top left his ideas and impact back to the Earth that orthogonal to question it doesn't matter what we're doing in the classroom when were thinking about fostering a growth or a fixed mindset is it the case that we can have students be doing any work sheet any experience but then have lots of posters up and talk about how Michael Jordan failed a lot and how
00:15:21I need of a growth mindset regardless of the experience that they're not available or has specific opinions on what the math classroom should be like in what the experiences should be like so she thinks open created mathematics are very important she really likes mathematical problems have multiple Solutions have students compare their different thinking and how it intersects and how it overlaps she makes developing number sense is incredibly important assessment and Grading she is very very strong viewpoints on assessment grading but she doesn't believe in this sort of every assignment gets some number out of a hundred and then you think about how good you are out of a hundred as a result she believes in group work very strongly app not speed which is very it related to the at the new standards grouping students of heterogeneous abilities don't put all the smart kids in one group and all the students that don't get it yet in another group has been you're really going to Foster fixed mindset system students notice those patterns I think it's really interesting that he can't think of her opinions about the Mac math classroom should look like and then where we agree or where we disagree or your guys.
00:16:21disagree back early question there you're saying like she's got out on the one hand all of these beliefs about growth mindset on the other hand very specific implementation station details about what a math class look like any question is are those tide like can you have just a run-of-the-mill math class as long as you're still encouraging people that failure is good or does it have to come with all of the other things being proposed and he doesn't need to come like that except one is is kind of you knowledge of the growth mindset but I think it does take more than that you need to be encouraging you need to it cuz you can say like oh if you try hard you'll succeed and you know I think teachers have been saying that for centuries probably but the reality is you know if your in a classroom sitting next to someone who's who's doing way better than you and you don't know why you know that provides evidence that leads you to the conclusion that while they must they must just be smart are the New York they must be a math person and I'm not answer some of these other things are I think design to too kind of cut through that and provide other opportunities so she said about these these problems that have low floor high ceiling White Walls
00:17:21started like this is very open-ended problem that you can give up no matter where you're coming at it from you can kind of answer questions about it and you might imagine like a a picture of the Eiffel Tower and you can ask a question about that like how how tall is it and maybe there's some similar triangles or something in the picture and you could use a similar triangles triangles to figure it out that's that's maybe a more traditional way of like introducing a problem like that wears I think you know some of that some of these ideas that that might encourage more growth mindset or might allow students at a different ability levels to sort of engage it's a show a picture like that and then and then have a more open in the question of like look at this picture and you know what questions come to mind you no matter what you think about it it opens up much more discussion and allows different people to eat to work together even if they're different levels to contribute something to analyzing and thinking mathematically about something that's a great example. I think to generalize a little bit about why these things are maybe important it's the implicit messages that students are getting in the classroom if it's not an accessible question I might start having though
00:18:21fixed mindset thoughts whereas if there's some entry point then I can start thinking now I can see that now I can see another example that is very clearly on ability and speed and treat students differentially based on their ability that implicit message probably dominates the red Rick about how growth mindset important and the poster that's in the corner you know but I think this is like one of the big differences between cognitive learning and NF Active Learning it's tempting to try to think of them the same way to her cognitive learning theory relearning a particular way of facts or understanding of something or being able to apply knowledge and and and and things like that where is effective learning is more around changing beliefs that you hold the same things don't work for both learning you can have a lecture about something you can read about something you can that's not how you change beliefs and end with vines that you're looking to change a believe all of the posters and readings and that's only going to go so far you need to do these other things you need to provide that this other
00:19:21currency need to encourage kids to do experiments if you think about your cognitive behavioral therapy that that's done for people would say let's say you have you know anxiety you have a fear of flying you know you're you're terrified at the thought of you been even getting into the plane so what you do is you do this you need work with a therapist to do cognitive behavioral therapy in the end basically the way that you would structure that is in you would talk about what what are you what are you worried is going to happen what do you need to talk to your fears and devise an experiment therapist might say what if we what if we go to the airport sit there for five minutes watch planes take off and then leave in a could you do that you know some people might might be terrified to do that but you talked. Cycle let's let's try it will do it in a safe environment will you just a certain distance away and then and then go do that and then you have a conversation afterwards and you say you know okay you had all these fears what do you what do you think now that we've done this this experiment and Anna kids are kind of chance to think through and say I like well okay you know the plane didn't fall out of the sky and land on my head I survived it's okay and then you can about the game you say well let's go for 15 minutes
00:20:21or let's go in the terminal or lets you know kind of pop it up you know more and more to kind of help people realize that you know it in the case of anxiety realize that their fears are wrong I think the same thing when you're changing any kind of belief that someone holds an irrational or rational eat so when you're changing mine said it's kind of the same thing as like you need to give opportunities for people to question their belief for concrete ways for them to demonstrate that their belief is is maybe not necessarily true I said there's a lot of encouragement a lot of other things and I think that's what I like about her is talking about she's talking about these different kind of different ways of structure in the classroom is is to create more opportunities for kids who question this idea of Earth my said even if they can repair it back you know who this is like growth mindset is and if I try hard I'll succeed you know anyone can say that but to change your belief about that I think you know that that's where you need to can I create these these experiences in the classroom that Joe ballor talking about in and provide an opportunity unit for force reflective feedback about how those things go so I think the last I know 2 or 3 minutes that you just said Ben might
00:21:21the most insightful two or three minutes on the Ben Ben and blue podcast so far in worth 13 episodes in what's at the hard here is changing a belief not just teaching a fact about people it's just known how difficult that is right now what's what's the best way to change someone's believe about their own predispositions with math and such I just have no idea right ahead and run up a blanket I think that suddenly becomes it dramatically more mind the best thing to do for both of those things is to create an experience when you talk about CBT and changing fear of flying the therapist is going to design of us experience a scaffold it experience for that person to overcome their fear and same thing with cognitive learning and that actually circles back to her Active Learning versus passive learning where were saying what should students be doing in classes they shouldn't be passively
00:22:21running and trying to soak up now it's like a sponge they should be having experiences we talked about content creators people to write textbooks or create online content I'm much more like the idea of thinking about experience creators or people that are creating educational experiences because I think it puts the producer of The Experience makes them much more accountable to think about everything as opposed to just being like I'm going to write this article and I'm not sure how it's going to be used if I'm craving candy experience I have to think more about what's going to be going on in the students mind who are they going to be working with what it how's it going to be changed their cognitive State how's it going to be changing their emotional state I really like the idea of developing educational experiences and thinking about what experiences can both make students learn and change students belief about math and maybe even more broadly and Beyond math I think that what that's what gets people that aren't even excited about math education excited about some of Joe bolers work is wow this do now has a growth mindset elsewhere in their life
00:23:21they seem like a slightly changed person in some way of learning is incredibly powerful but that he had two tough nut to crack because you know I think we're kind of learning you can kind of say like okay let's look at algebra you break it down there's like these 10 standards you know if you know I'll be ready got to be able to these 10 things make you break those 10 things into 10 other things and then you know we can we can turn those into textbook chapters and I can write problem sets in like family got algebra covered it's a lot harder to do with with mindset or with any sort of you know changing someone's beliefs about themselves and so I was Wonder like is it possible to be a content creator that creates you put a great experiences order those need to be experiences that are sort of negotiated with the person because you have to have to find an experience that you know addresses the the underlying issues so if it's a fear of flying you have to dress that account it can address you know fear of crowds or something and it has to be something that the person is willing to do because if they might be very afraid to fly until you have to you have to do that like well let's go look at plane for 5 min
00:24:21or something yeah and it requires a relationship with a student and a knowledge of where the students at and how they're feeling and I'll so maybe that maybe that's the breakdown maybe there are content creators that create online content crepe paper content and then we think of teachers as being the experience creators there the person that translates connects the relationship they have with their students with the knowledge they have of their content and forms those into an experience in the classroom that is suited for those students to to learn and grow and in many different ways yeah that's absolutely what you choose not to be coming to push back on that lately so it doesn't have a couple episodes ago and maybe many I'm not sure I remember you talking about how a lot of people make bread out in my survey personalized learning on quitting the best scope math lesson for particular person where they are and the premise of having like a one-size-fits-all you know a lot of people talk about just the sort of nonsense but you and I think I also air a little bit more on the side of
00:25:21no there exists like a best explanation for most people and there is such a thing as striving for something kind of like a one-size-fits-all or at the very least one size fits everybody of a of a certain background like the state-of-the-art explanation of a particular topic and that's all that's all in the same thing beliefs towards growth mindset everything slipped and it's it's not the case that you can have a notion of the best experience crafted for that but it has to be much more individually tailored based on the relationship between teacher and student first question is that an accurate portrayal of your beliefs about those two things and then too if so what exactly is the distinction between crafting the lesson to teach a math fact versus crafting the experience to change a belief maybe even in the world of experience is there is some sort of Baseline that you can give some sort of idea of an experience but then when
00:26:21it's taken into the classroom it requires a deep level of personalization by the teacher so to go back to either is Eiffel Tower math lesson example maybe that's the a great framework and a great idea for some Hands-On lesson but then once you get into the classroom how you craft the experience I don't know who you put with who where you walk around who you ask a question to who you push further how long you go between and before a brake light just requires such a deep understanding of your classroom and the students in it and the relationship between you and the students in the students in each other it becomes personalized not because the Eiffel Tower or the lesson or the Baseline framework of the experience is different across teachers are schools or whoever's doing it puppy cause the way it's being implemented is with a knowledge of personal knowledge of the students involved in where they're at does that get me out of the box
00:27:21I mean that's a great question to take off that when can you have out-of-the-box experiences that are kind of standardized and when do you need very very very specific things I was talking to someone yesterday that was really interested in what science experiments are experiences lead to eye growth mindset in Science Education and I basically told him he should do some research on that and then come up with five different experiences or experiment science experiments and then he should travel the country and a school district spam to go in them science classrooms or science or schools for a week at a time and just use these experiences with the students and pitching self is the science mindset guy I wonder how well that would that works or how well you actually need to craft a diff completely separate experience for each individual student I'm not share scientific good example cuz if I look back to my high school exposure to let say physics Labs there's there's two very different types of experiences that I
00:28:21one of them was you have the set out experiment that you're going to do that morning and it's kind of like a checklist and maybe there's a little prompt to pause and reflect on what's happening in some way or another but the the mentality at the student in that moment is like got to get through this checklist got to write down the things in my lab notebook not really stepping back and saying why are we analyzing a pendulums motion this way like what from the class am I supposed to be seeing an action right now it's somehow feels much more removed I kind of suspected that is a property of it being out of the box I don't think they're exist the better crafted experiment or the better phrase prompts that really would have taken me out of the mindset of got to get through the checklist contrast this with when I was like a physics ta for the same class a little bit later I needed to physically write one of the labs that the students would be doing and it's not like this was going to be that much of a different lab from like other ones out there but my experience
00:29:21writing that lab and engaging with the science in that way but what are the things I wanted want them to connect from the class into seeing it in action it was only then I actually had an appreciation for the whole the whole point of physics labs in the first place right and I know that every one of the students in that class probably just had the same wrote like let's just get through this checklist experience so then perversely as be like teaching assistant I probably got a lot more out of it when I look in that like it just doesn't feel like the the entire difference was one of them was brought out of a box and put to me and the other one was evoking can you please come up with something with with them since of what their goals are I can't remember a single science lab that I did in high school I can remember tons of project that I did but I can't remember a single as I know we did them that I can't remember what I remember I remember the time that I almost like burned Matt person's face off by like 4 and hot water and its direction like I remember the time when my chemistry teacher Miss Jones let us take a hammer to
00:30:21whole bunch of old Beaker bottles and just like smashing two bits I remember the time when a classmate will like accidentally created a huge Fireball that sort of went up to the ceiling in the middle of the lab like things there that have nothing to do with the actual time to self and if you ask me what was any one of the labs you did I like split my eyes and think titration something where they know precisely the one that I wrote exactly everything that went into that and I do think just anything out of the box is not going to do what it is that we kind of wanted to be doing but it's much more measurable so that's nice you have a clear notion of whether the students completed it or not you think I feel like my insides are just not well done I think you need to do you need to start with some gigantic surprise and be like why guys like let's figure this out like why did that light just behaving that crazy way and instead of all the science labs I did started with 13 steps and I just was I followed all 13 steps and maybe actually burn someone's face when I miss miss step 6 I don't know
00:31:21custom experience because he is if it's like if the question of the prompt is like why is this happening then you're expecting a sliver 2 guided discussion at the teachers going to bring the class through in fact maybe the best way to do a science lab would be to trick the students and have the teacher like don't don't have the biology teacher come in and say we're going to dissect frogs today they have the biology teacher side of the road this dead frog and I think instead of doing whatever else I had planned today like you guys want to just dig into this thing you know and make it seem like I'm spontaneous like we're doing something a little bit against the rules and not because we're not doing the actual like course material instead we're just digging into a frog or whatever it might be I think you I don't think you can do that for all the labs because pretty quickly clear what's happening but every year this teacher has 20 dead frogs bright side of the road
00:32:19baby that that thought experiment seems like it would definitely work I don't know maybe maybe you're right maybe they're do exist ways of framing these things that would totally sounds like it would work yeah that sounds well it's think about I'm not convinced that it's the the fact that it's against the rules characteristic I think surprises or really unique things I don't know if you guys can think of more when it comes to sign up for maybe when you cut into a frog the some purple pus comes out and you're like why is this happening like let's figure this out and basically that's all you handed the teacher and then the teacher's job is to be like dyed the students to learn as they're wondering about that little piece that they saw definitely don't remember our high school science labs because my suspicion is the the frog dissection unit was not about the purple 5S
00:33:17When we arrive at the surface there's just like principal of effect which is like a turtle principle of learning that says that basically learning a strengthened when it's a company by sort of a pleasant or satisfying feeling and so maybe what you're getting at with that is like the novelty of the teacher saying y'all were doing this naughty thing where if you know where does dissecting this roadkill that I found you know that that kind of create excitement and enter the pleasant pleasant feeling which then strengthen strengthen learning wonder if that's that's something to it I'm going to bookmark that away is something to read more into and quote because I feel like that captures in a sentence what I try to do with videos in a way that I had message Sara Lee articulated before it's just a similar way that it's Unique so that works the first time right it's memorable because it's that day that the teacher said let's not do this I have two questions you guys can choose which one you want to go out at 1 how do you then design as a science classroom is it let kids figure out a project and then
00:34:17you guide them on their project and every kid's working on a different sort of project is it is is that how you got to science class in my other question you can choose your own adventure is can we design when you guys are making YouTube videos or something how can you design those with growth mindset in mind it would have everything to do with are we in our idealistic land where this is a mastery-based learning environment the goal is to build a portfolio and to gain Mastery of one particular topic as they want at their own pace or does it have to be within the current system where you you need something measurable at the end of it I think that would dramatically shift how I would think about the the perfect science experience there we get lost in those details you're right question in like crafting experiences in the form of how do you put growth mindset into like YouTube videos or or other sort of experiences I mean I think exposure to other people failing is
00:35:17holy pretty important like this is something I do not at all and that I imagine a different Channel format or just like shifting with the town's about or something like that could accomplish better wear if there's a particular explanation or topic show me or someone else failing to get it or failing to find the right way of explaining it like going through a lot of different drafts and get the full process I've reminded actually all men why would they watching it I don't remember so there was like a some YouTube video like called the making of a song with Taylor Swift where the video itself is actually kind of annoying to watch because it involved her like just sort of filming herself singing a little bit of a Melody to a certain song you just see the progression of sort of humming this melody to herself and then trying to sing in sing it over and over like it not quite being right and she's like on a piano I didn't sounds pretty bad the whole time and I think it's it's Charming I'm sure if you like a Taylor Swift fan because it's the song that would be recognized from a new album
00:36:17you see the whole process because into it rather than just the final result to take that as a as a promise and a type of video and if that was something to accompany every video that like I put out there that heater puts out on the second chance to look at the everything that led up to this look at the multiple drafts going into it that would be one way to communicate the other in the non video land so I talked about Desmos I think I've been on this podcast on one thing I like is the way that they do try to actually crashed experiences for the classroom that is it is intrinsically design that it is a group of students in a teacher guiding them it's not a bunch of isolated little experiences you're trying to have them in to relate with each other as much as possible and actually the example that I gave her the Eiffel Tower sort of open-ended problem came from Dan Meyer who who is it has most loved and within those kinds of experiences that I think is where you have a lot of room to give little growth mindset lessons and to hold up examples of failure preceding understanding right like look at the start of
00:37:17activity your sketch of you know what you thought this graph to look like look like this in the by the end it look like this and like that failure with necessary to get there or at the very least a lot of other people were failing in that same way to before they got there and it's very easy only look at the final result that domain of product which is really more than they like explorable explanations category than it is in the videos are blog post category is really where I see growth mindset lessons carrying the most weight and leave them in intentionally I mean it's a good thing cuz I think I don't do that cuz I'm not there to put a lot of work in my videos and the final result is a polished video if I book something off you know building something doing some project and it doesn't work the first time I won't necessarily throw that out I'll I'll start troubleshooting and then I'll let you know if it makes sense try to try to keep that in the video I mean sometimes it mean it was sort of 20 minutes and head scratching machine I let that out but needed
00:38:17when it when I can you try to try to put that in there just to demonstrate that like yeah things don't always work the first time or pretty Parks I took doesn't always doesn't always work or things like that but that is very different than watching this video product which I think is interesting with the big family gave Taylor Swift which which is like you're saying the entire process I think people saw the entire process of what it takes to make a video you know you'd see that yeah it is not as easy as it is as maybe I make it look in the final product so I think it's bringing a little bit of research you it's interesting you guys both go to leaving and mistakes and videos to the place where my mind goes is including growth mindset messages which I think God Academy experimented with and I know of a variety of mook platforms have experimented with when you click next question that says all your brains like a muscle and you can grow it I think those are detectable but small effect sizes for that sort of intervention not really a fan of those
00:39:17wings of a Kelling the lesson of growth mindset rather than showing it I think it would it's very easy to have a lot of your brain is like a muscle messaging that just doesn't sink in what you actually mean especially if I mean you brought up what are the implicit things that you are communicating in the very way that you interact with students earlier on that I think Carrie is a lot more like if you have the growth mindset poster or if you open every day with like growth mindset chance but you're still you know clearly treating some students differently because you think they are the ones who get it or if you still use language like that was a very smart way to answer the question or whatever might be totally going to overwrite anything that you did with the telling rather than showing
00:39:59if I think it's either or you do need to you need to that message like it's some point in your life you need to hear your brain is like a muscle like someone needs to tell you that like once I need to be reminded of it nearly daily I think yeah yeah but I guess what I'm saying is like it it's not it's not in either or like you definitely got it like a totally Ruth Grant you definitely need you know that reinforcement you need you need like concrete evidence in your life that demonstrates you know that the growth mindset is working for you but you also like me to know about the growth mindset if you don't if no one is if no one is ever told you like a by the way you know you can change your mind you know there is this fixed mindset and growth mindset and you can change it if no one ever tells you that then then you're a pretty big disadvantage I would think so what's interesting so these messages if you actually look at research on this increases in performance increases and retention and that's our thing what's interesting talk about this another time diving deeper but Renee gazelle check who's who's here has done some really cool work
00:40:59where you give someone a prompt before they start the move its hey right right in three sentences what your life goals are and then the next prompt is right in three sentences why you're taking this Mook and how it connects to your life goals for some people they're taking the move to be able to build a scale to get a job for which they think they will better their family and they have the opportunity to write about this and it turns out that people that go through this this writing exercise before starting the book and show pretty drastic and pretty surprising increases and performance and retention in persevering over hard things that happened in the mood now that's not completely related to the growth mindset but it's an example of a kind of experience intervention that you can do online and isn't totally personalized because you don't have a human doing any anything that's actually connecting one-on-one to you but actually seems to make quite a bit of difference in a self-reflection is is a pretty powerful and we've done some experiments on Academy to where we and we had both Xboxes where we asked you props like that
00:41:59Thruway the answer that you typed out a little bit weird but actually it actually works with an equation which communicates growth mindset you tell me I love you this is communicating growth mindset and it's like sort of a inspiring one it's just like it's and it's just it's just a numerical thing 1.01 ^ 365 is a little over 37 compound interest or someone communicates like 1% increase of something per day would that itself would actually mean 38 x over the whole years basically interpret it however you want but I don't know
00:42:59look at those numbers and it sort of communicates a Monumental differences can have their origins in like very small incremental changes along the way so if you look like if you actually read this right literally if you looked at one student who appears to be 37 times better at math than another student the difference between them could be nothing more than like a person per day of like Effectiveness for how their minds were mulling over the topics for only the last year right so that's just the two final thing I wanted to shoot for an in there I love it I'm going to go and I'm going to try to become 1% better there's also the super pessimistic flip side of that which is bigger 0.99 ^ 365 0.01 you can roll over if you want to feel a little bit more stressed about where your day is going that's just racist the steaks last night having done like
00:43:59. me and seemed a little message on there one of them is like you have the muscle composition of an elite athletes so that that is super fixed mindset thing to say right after your
00:44:13baby tell everyone that we are to me hear that is as fixed mindset is fixed mindset could be it's literally genetics and yet I found that incredibly motivating to exercise more and be a little bit more athletic than I currently am I cuz you have to censor like well really just putting this to waste and of course like you could say the timer on you to get into what it means in this kind of look at it means much less than that it might seem at first from the from the headliner maybe this is a topic for another day where do there exists fixed mindset messages that are actually incredibly inspiring I don't think that's a fixed mindset message though at least not the way you're interpreting it you're interpreting it as saying you have a very hide potential that if you water you will see growth
00:45:03I guess at 23 and me if they just like on on every report they sent out they said that have a experiment with this right if you send that everyone that you have like researchers have found a match being in it turns out you have them at Gene do you have a lot more middle-aged people who thought they're bad at math like jumping on Khan Academy to reengage maybe there's a clear down side which is like where can I get out that there's a Math JiJi yeah but as long as everyone does the test right but everyone walked

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