Full Transcript for Joe Rogan Experience 2534 Annie Jacobsen

also i mean it 74 00:03:58.860 --> 00:04:01.060 was really unfortunate i thought that yesterday he took the 75 00:04:01.080 --> 00:04:05.719 fifth because i for one just want to hear call 76 00:04:05.740 --> 00:04:08.520 me pauliana the truth be told you. 77 00:04:08.479 --> 00:04:09.740 Know he's not going to tell you the truth no 78 00:04:09.759 --> 00:04:12.560 matter what he's going to obfuscate and dance around it 79 00:04:12.620 --> 00:04:16.970 and use words that don't totally apply to what he's 80 00:04:17.009 --> 00:04:19.189 saying and just ramble on. 81 00:04:20.100 --> 00:04:23.620 I mean, COVID absolutely could have been this incredible lesson 82 00:04:23.660 --> 00:04:25.860 for all of us. I mean, the nightmare that it was. 83 00:04:26.500 --> 00:04:29.620 And instead, we're just left. I mean, can you believe 84 00:04:29.639 --> 00:04:33.889 that we still, with all the power of national security, 85 00:04:33.910 --> 00:04:38.009 that we still allegedly do not know where the virus 86 00:04:38.290 --> 00:04:38.810 came from? 87 00:04:39.899 --> 00:04:40.399 Don't we, though? 88 00:04:40.420 --> 00:04:44.360 Definitively. I mean, definitively. People certainly have their ideas. 89 00:04:44.680 --> 00:04:47.639 But I think it's high probability that it came from 90 00:04:47.689 --> 00:04:52.810 the Wuhan lab. I think most experts are now saying that. 91 00:04:53.209 --> 00:04:55.290 And I think the only reason why they weren't saying 92 00:04:55.329 --> 00:04:58.470 that was because of Fauci. And it was really because 93 00:04:58.509 --> 00:05:01.680 that he had funded this through the EcoHealth Alliance. 94 00:05:02.939 --> 00:05:07.139 Look, I say that in a very, like, 90,000-foot neutral way. 95 00:05:07.220 --> 00:05:11.759 In other words, every sub... I leave... COVID, that part 96 00:05:11.800 --> 00:05:14.720 of it out of my book, it becomes like a 97 00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:18.000 metaphor that underpins the narrative. And people end up reading 98 00:05:18.019 --> 00:05:21.259 the book and going, wow, I actually think differently about COVID, 99 00:05:21.459 --> 00:05:24.610 which was kind of my intention. But every subject matter 100 00:05:25.069 --> 00:05:29.050 expert I spoke to encouraged me to put in the 101 00:05:29.089 --> 00:05:32.709 book that almost certainly it was a lab leak. Like 102 00:05:33.050 --> 00:05:36.639 it's just... So when I say we still don't know, 103 00:05:36.699 --> 00:05:39.610 that's in a bit of air quotes, meaning how is 104 00:05:39.689 --> 00:05:42.629 it that someone can't– how does it all rest on 105 00:05:43.509 --> 00:05:46.709 Fauci who had reasons to mislead us? We know that 106 00:05:46.790 --> 00:05:50.819 from looking at what's been released. How can it be 107 00:05:50.860 --> 00:05:55.000 that he's the only one with the alleged answer to 108 00:05:55.060 --> 00:05:55.319 it all? 109 00:05:56.180 --> 00:05:58.420 Well, I mean the other scientists that were investigating it 110 00:05:58.459 --> 00:06:01.480 from the beginning– You know, when they examined the virus, 111 00:06:01.620 --> 00:06:04.060 they were saying that all indications that it had been manipulated. 112 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:07.250 And they were pretty public about that. And then they weren't. 113 00:06:07.459 --> 00:06:10.829 And then they changed their tune. It's just when you 114 00:06:10.889 --> 00:06:14.709 have power and you have influence like he did and 115 00:06:14.730 --> 00:06:20.149 the power to make or break careers in the medical 116 00:06:20.189 --> 00:06:22.970 world where these people are terrified. You know, they're already 117 00:06:23.029 --> 00:06:27.470 dealing with malpractice insurance, which is very high. They already 118 00:06:27.509 --> 00:06:31.779 have very high student debt. student loan debt. And it's 119 00:06:31.800 --> 00:06:33.759 a bad situation for them. And they're not going to 120 00:06:33.779 --> 00:06:38.259 stick their neck out to risk everything that they've worked 121 00:06:38.300 --> 00:06:42.189 for for 20, 30, whatever years for this thing. And 122 00:06:42.290 --> 00:06:44.430 that's what most people did. Most people just stuck their 123 00:06:44.689 --> 00:06:46.410 head in the sand. 124 00:06:46.430 --> 00:06:49.149 I sort of went along with a party line, which 125 00:06:49.209 --> 00:06:53.110 is also really crazy when you drill down on how 126 00:06:53.189 --> 00:06:56.550 dangerous biological weapons are. I mean, look, most of the 127 00:06:56.589 --> 00:07:01.209 people I talked to said, Gain of function is a 128 00:07:01.569 --> 00:07:05.050 euphemism for biological weapons engineering. 129 00:07:05.149 --> 00:07:06.889 Right. Right. Period. 130 00:07:06.930 --> 00:07:07.449 Full stop. 131 00:07:07.610 --> 00:07:10.709 And a lot of it is funded by the military. Yes. 132 00:07:11.230 --> 00:07:15.060 And what's crazy is that these are people that have 133 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:18.660 worked for Obama just as much as all sides of 134 00:07:18.680 --> 00:07:19.259 the aisle working. 135 00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:19.350 Yes. 136 00:07:20.829 --> 00:07:23.350 People who are not, as you say, they don't have 137 00:07:23.430 --> 00:07:24.990 something to gain financially. 138 00:07:25.069 --> 00:07:29.060 Well, we should say that Obama actually stopped gain-of-function research 139 00:07:29.069 --> 00:07:31.399 when he was in office, which was a very wise 140 00:07:31.459 --> 00:07:35.459 thing for him, very wise by his decision. 141 00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:38.439 So what do you make of the fact that Obama 142 00:07:38.500 --> 00:07:44.009 stopped this dangerous research, also called dual-use research of concern? 143 00:07:44.029 --> 00:07:47.810 He stops it. And then suddenly it becomes a partisan 144 00:07:47.870 --> 00:07:51.870 issue that Republic, only one side of the aisle decides that. 145 00:07:52.250 --> 00:07:56.449 I mean, that's what confuses me, because if you look 146 00:07:56.470 -->

00:08:01.029 at the facts, the very knowledgeable people that are well-informed 147 00:08:01.129 --> 00:08:05.829 by people who don't have financial gain know that gain 148 00:08:05.870 --> 00:08:08.610 of function is essentially weapons engineering. 149 00:08:08.810 --> 00:08:12.970 Yes. And the thing is, they're doing gain of function 150 00:08:13.050 --> 00:08:17.240 to make these viruses more transmissible. Supposedly, So that they 151 00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:20.639 can come up with cures. But they didn't have any cures. 152 00:08:22.180 --> 00:08:25.439 But I think it's like, okay, that also sounds great 153 00:08:25.500 --> 00:08:27.670 for them to say. We're trying to work on cures, 154 00:08:27.699 --> 00:08:30.689 but they're leaving out a really important point. Is that 155 00:08:31.370 --> 00:08:34.190 in order for us to find a cure, we have 156 00:08:34.250 --> 00:08:39.350 to make the pathogen more virulent, more transmissible. We have 157 00:08:39.389 --> 00:08:42.429 to make something, for example, airborne that wasn't airborne. 158 00:08:42.450 --> 00:08:42.929 Right. 159 00:08:43.580 --> 00:08:47.029 We have to demonstrate that it could cause a pandemic. 160 00:08:47.450 --> 00:08:50.090 You see that a lot in the literature in order 161 00:08:50.149 --> 00:08:54.350 to figure out how to cure it. Well, that's a 162 00:08:54.389 --> 00:08:59.500 catch-22 that's incredibly dangerous. Like we have to actually make 163 00:08:59.539 --> 00:09:05.169 a weapon to be able to defeat a weapon. That's 164 00:09:05.710 --> 00:09:06.850 actually what is being said. 165 00:09:06.970 --> 00:09:09.549 Right, but it seems like there's a lot of bullshit 166 00:09:09.590 --> 00:09:11.649 going on and that really what they're trying to do 167 00:09:11.789 --> 00:09:15.090 is make better diseases that work better and they can 168 00:09:15.210 --> 00:09:18.000 use them. Like, this is part of the argument about 169 00:09:18.029 --> 00:09:22.139 whether or not Lyme disease was engineered. And there's a 170 00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:24.080 lot of evidence that points to the fact that it was. 171 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:27.159 And one of the reasons for it is this Plum 172 00:09:27.259 --> 00:09:30.840 Island laboratory that's right off the coast of Lyme, Connecticut, 173 00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:35.370 where the disease was really... first named in the 1970s 174 00:09:35.409 --> 00:09:37.649 or whatever it was yeah and so they were doing 175 00:09:37.850 --> 00:09:41.879 gain-of-function research they were doing biological research on ticks in 176 00:09:41.929 --> 00:09:44.360 order to infect ticks with diseases and then they would 177 00:09:44.419 --> 00:09:47.720 drop them out of airplanes and overwhelm the medical establishment 178 00:09:47.740 --> 00:09:50.340 in these areas and the idea was that if you're 179 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:53.230 fighting the enemy you can fly over dump a bunch 180 00:09:53.250 --> 00:09:55.529 of ticks on them they all get these horrible diseases 181 00:09:55.769 --> 00:09:58.409 everyone's sick you don't have an effective fighting force. 182 00:09:59.309 --> 00:10:03.019 I mean it's like we need to create a countermeasure, 183 00:10:03.080 --> 00:10:04.720 but first we need to create the weapon. 184 00:10:05.620 --> 00:10:07.730 I don't even know if they think that far ahead. 185 00:10:08.289 --> 00:10:10.730 I think a lot of it, I'm just guessing, but 186 00:10:10.750 --> 00:10:12.169 I think a lot of it is just what I 187 00:10:12.210 --> 00:10:16.299 was saying earlier. There's people and their job. is to 188 00:10:16.379 --> 00:10:18.820 do this kind of research. And they want grants and 189 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:21.299 they want funding. And then there's other people that can 190 00:10:21.340 --> 00:10:24.279 profit off of this, of these grants and this funding 191 00:10:24.470 --> 00:10:27.330 and creating labs and doing all this stuff. And they 192 00:10:27.350 --> 00:10:29.309 just start doing it. And they come up with reasons 193 00:10:29.529 --> 00:10:31.470 why it should be done. And then, of course, you 194 00:10:31.509 --> 00:10:34.629 have military people that want the military applications of these diseases. 195 00:10:35.529 --> 00:10:38.570 And so they help facilitate it. And they don't even think, 196 00:10:39.529 --> 00:10:43.470 how does this play out? They think about their own interests. 197 00:10:44.049 --> 00:10:46.870 They're at their own short-term benefits of having these things. 198 00:10:47.429 --> 00:10:49.769 And they just continue the research. They continue to work. 199 00:10:50.549 --> 00:10:53.269 And the fact that they even push back on the 200 00:10:53.309 --> 00:10:55.590 idea that it was a lab leak so hard when 201 00:10:55.629 --> 00:10:58.669 you have a lab right where it was leaked. I mean, 202 00:10:58.730 --> 00:11:00.929 right where it started happening, you've got a lab there. 203 00:11:00.950 --> 00:11:03.409 And then the famous Jon Stewart bit that he did 204 00:11:03.460 --> 00:11:06.279 on The Colbert Show, which is hilarious. Yeah. I mean, 205 00:11:06.299 --> 00:11:10.100 that's crazy. It's the Wuhan Institute. 206 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:12.740 For Coronavirus Research. 207 00:11:12.919 --> 00:11:15.419 Yes. And that's where you get a coronavirus leak. 208 00:11:15.639 --> 00:11:18.570 I mean, look, this is like where you really have 209 00:11:18.590 --> 00:11:21.690 to think the country's going to hell in a handbag. 210 00:11:21.830 --> 00:11:26.490 That people stop being able to like form an opinion 211 00:11:26.549 --> 00:11:28.889 based on the facts in front of them, even if 212 00:11:28.990 --> 00:11:32.090 it isn't popular with their best friend. 213 00:11:32.370 --> 00:11:35.789 Well, it's their party, right? It's their ideology. They've committed 214 00:11:35.850 --> 00:11:39.389 to one side or another. And either you, you know, 215 00:11:39.429 --> 00:11:41.210 you're with the team or you're not with the team.

216 00:11:41.250 --> 00:11:42.750 And if you're with the team, you have to accept 217 00:11:42.870 --> 00:11:44.090 all the things the team says. 218 00:11:44.970 --> 00:11:48.600 At your own peril. I mean, you know, it's an 219 00:11:48.779 --> 00:11:52.879 existential risk. Do you know what the case fatality rate 220 00:11:52.980 --> 00:11:57.220 for COVID was? Like the case fatality rate, it means 221 00:11:57.379 --> 00:12:00.559 how many people out of 100 people that get COVID die. 222 00:12:00.759 --> 00:12:03.200 How many? One. 223 00:12:04.279 --> 00:12:08.490 Case fatality rate of one. Pneumonic plague, which I write 224 00:12:08.509 --> 00:12:13.980 about in Biological War, Mother Nature's pneumonic plague, 100 out 225 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:22.100 of 100 die. 100% case fatality rate. Unless you get antibiotics. 226 00:12:23.320 --> 00:12:27.429 Within 24 hours, then it's about a 15% case fatality rate. 227 00:12:28.370 --> 00:12:31.690 But guess what gain of function does? You can learn 228 00:12:31.769 --> 00:12:37.809 how to outfox antibiotics. So that you can turn Mother 229 00:12:37.870 --> 00:12:44.360 Nature's pneumonic plague, which used to be curable with antibiotics, 230 00:12:44.740 --> 00:12:49.000 to have no cure. That's the threat level we're dealing with. 231 00:12:49.500 --> 00:12:54.879 And meanwhile, people are taking sides about what we're talking about, 232 00:12:54.899 --> 00:12:58.250 a lab leak that pretty obviously was a lab leak. 233 00:12:58.509 --> 00:13:00.809 Well, first of all, I didn't realize that COVID's fatality 234 00:13:00.830 --> 00:13:02.970 rate was that high. I thought it was much lower 235 00:13:02.990 --> 00:13:03.309 than that. 236 00:13:04.100 --> 00:13:06.980 It's about 1%. Well, here's why. Okay, so 1 in 237 00:13:06.980 --> 00:13:12.679 100 people who manifested COVID got it. But COVID is also. 238 00:13:12.679 --> 00:13:15.509 1 in 100 people who manifested COVID died. 239 00:13:15.529 --> 00:13:16.110 Died, yes. 240 00:13:16.289 --> 00:13:18.009 So, like, I don't know anyone— Wasn't really that much. 241 00:13:18.309 --> 00:13:22.509 That is the CDC, even Defense Department, statistic. But also 242 00:13:22.549 --> 00:13:26.070 keep this into consideration. Many, many people who had COVID 243 00:13:26.110 --> 00:13:27.730 were never symptomatic. 244 00:13:28.169 --> 00:13:28.409 Right. 245 00:13:28.490 --> 00:13:32.289 Like, including my 83-year-old father and my son, one of 246 00:13:32.350 --> 00:13:36.659 my two sons. They could both test positive for COVID 247 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:38.220 and have no symptoms. 248 00:13:38.379 --> 00:13:41.000 Right. But isn't that a function of the PCR test 249 00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:47.360 being really not designed for testing for active diseases? And 250 00:13:47.399 --> 00:13:50.399 there was false positives of the PCR test was somewhere 251 00:13:50.440 --> 00:13:53.039 in the 80%. Huge, huge. 252 00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:55.360 I mean, you're, I

think, bringing up the most important 253 00:13:55.399 --> 00:14:00.269 point about biology, which is that there's so much uncertainty. 254 00:14:00.669 --> 00:14:02.830 There's so much uncertainty. I mean, you and I could 255 00:14:02.870 --> 00:14:06.820 get the same pathogen in our lungs. Our immunity systems 256 00:14:06.860 --> 00:14:11.570 are totally different. Our physiology is different. So there's no... 257 00:14:12.210 --> 00:14:14.929 Uncertainty would be something that you would think would be 258 00:14:15.769 --> 00:14:19.389 sort of factored into public health officials talking about things. Like, 259 00:14:19.879 --> 00:14:24.000 we're not sure if... But instead, they act with this 260 00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:27.519 crazy certainty, which is bogus. 261 00:14:27.799 --> 00:14:31.299 Well, the big problem with that is profit, right? There 262 00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:34.360 was a lot of profit in being able to point 263 00:14:34.419 --> 00:14:39.120 towards one very particular method, one very particular treatment. And 264 00:14:39.139 --> 00:14:41.159 this was the only treatment. And you have to take 265 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:44.000 this treatment and this treatment is going to make people 266 00:14:44.039 --> 00:14:46.559 an insane amount of money. But that's not why they're 267 00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:48.519 pushing it. They're pushing it for public health. They really 268 00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:51.220 care about you, even though they're going to make hundreds 269 00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:52.240 of billions of dollars. 270 00:14:52.840 --> 00:14:55.070 It's the case fatality rate. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. 271 00:14:55.370 --> 00:14:58.389 It says it's 0.1%, which was a fraction of the 272 00:14:58.389 --> 00:14:59.789 1% estimated earlier. 273 00:14:59.629 --> 00:15:01.470 In the pandemic. Yeah, that's what I thought it was. 274 00:15:01.789 --> 00:15:05.179 I thought it was one tenth of 1%. So that 275 00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:07.370 makes more sense to me because otherwise you would have 276 00:15:07.419 --> 00:15:10.250 so many people dead. You know, if you think about 277 00:15:10.250 --> 00:15:12.429 300 million people, that means we'd have 3 million people 278 00:15:12.470 --> 00:15:14.269 dead because most people caught COVID. 279 00:15:15.409 --> 00:15:18.509 It's interesting because the CDC still says it's 1%. 280 00:15:18.509 --> 00:15:21.549 I think they're full of shit. I think they're full 281 00:15:21.570 --> 00:15:24.889 of shit. I think they're just, I think the mismanagement 282 00:15:25.210 --> 00:15:29.610 and the. Just the overall strategy for dealing with it 283 00:15:29.649 --> 00:15:33.149 and dealing with people, the lockdowns, keeping kids out of school, masking, 284 00:15:33.289 --> 00:15:36.409 all of it was so bad. It's so indefensible that 285 00:15:36.470 --> 00:15:39.850 one of the wildest things now is during this Fauci trial, 286 00:15:40.450 --> 00:15:43.710 you're not seeing any coverage of it

on mainstream media, 287 00:15:43.830 --> 00:15:46.330 except I saw one of those stupid panel shows on 288 00:15:46.389 --> 00:15:48.950 CNN where they were saying no one cares about this. 289 00:15:49.389 --> 00:15:51.690 We should care about what's happening right now. America doesn't 290 00:15:51.730 --> 00:15:54.750 care about what happened five years ago. Hey, there's a 291 00:15:54.850 --> 00:15:58.590 congressional hearing going on where a guy's testifying in front 292 00:15:58.629 --> 00:16:03.879 of Congress who got a 10-year, complete 10-year immunity for 293 00:16:04.139 --> 00:16:06.299 all the crimes that he possibly could have committed when 294 00:16:06.340 --> 00:16:09.000 he wasn't convicted of any crimes, which is an incredible 295 00:16:09.039 --> 00:16:11.980 precedent that's never happened before. You've never had a guy 296 00:16:12.059 --> 00:16:14.980 get pardoned for something that he was never convicted of 297 00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:18.190 for 10 years, anything he did in 10 years. And 298 00:16:18.210 --> 00:16:21.309 then you have that same guy testifying in front of Congress, 299 00:16:21.590 --> 00:16:24.299 pleading the fifth that would color his tie is. If 300 00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:26.399 you don't think that's news, you're out of your fucking 301 00:16:26.500 --> 00:16:29.460 mind and you shouldn't be calling yourself the news because 302 00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:33.440 you're just a propaganda arm for whatever pharmaceutical company is 303 00:16:33.500 --> 00:16:37.309 paying for your advertisements. What you're doing is nonsense. This 304 00:16:37.370 --> 00:16:39.669 is definitely not news. That's a big issue for most 305 00:16:39.710 --> 00:16:42.299 Americans who went through that, people who lost their jobs, 306 00:16:42.620 --> 00:16:44.879 people who had to take a vaccine in order to 307 00:16:44.919 --> 00:16:47.559 go to work and got sick from it, people who 308 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:51.000 they couldn't fly, they couldn't travel, they were vilified, they 309 00:16:51.019 --> 00:16:53.500 were called plague rats because they were questioning these things. 310 00:16:54.179 --> 00:16:56.830 And here we are. Here we are with CNN saying 311 00:16:56.850 --> 00:16:59.049 this is not a big deal. Why are we concentrating 312 00:16:59.090 --> 00:17:01.470 on this? We have so many issues right now plaguing 313 00:17:01.509 --> 00:17:04.589 this country. Guess what? We can concentrate on those too. 314 00:17:05.269 --> 00:17:07.079 We can look at everything. That's what you're supposed to do. 315 00:17:07.470 --> 00:17:09.079 That's what the news is supposed to be. You're supposed 316 00:17:09.099 --> 00:17:10.380 to be telling it. You're not supposed to be the 317 00:17:10.519 --> 00:17:14.500 arbiters of what we can and can't concentrate on. That's ridiculous. 318 00:17:15.339 --> 00:17:18.160 You know, but what's interesting is I think the lack 319 00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:23.259 of news ends up making people more

curious. So in 320 00:17:23.319 --> 00:17:26.349 other words, people go to other sources of information. If 321 00:17:26.369 --> 00:17:29.670 they're not going to get it from CNN, they're going 322 00:17:29.690 --> 00:17:33.980 to look for it themselves because we're naturally curious, especially– 323 00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:37.079 something like COVID. So I think I kind of get 324 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:40.019 the sense that people tow certain groups of people, certainly 325 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:42.269 not me, because you don't know what my politics are, 326 00:17:42.369 --> 00:17:45.750 but they will tow the party line, but then they 327 00:17:45.829 --> 00:17:48.549 have their own opinion privately. 328 00:17:48.789 --> 00:17:49.569 Yes. 329 00:17:50.289 --> 00:17:53.009 Which is unfortunately what we also saw from Dr. Fauci, 330 00:17:53.269 --> 00:17:55.990 but that's a completely different point because he's a public 331 00:17:56.009 --> 00:17:59.549 health official and he shouldn't be, you know, speaking out 332 00:17:59.569 --> 00:18:01.569 of one side of his mouth and writing in his 333 00:18:01.630 --> 00:18:05.160 journal another thing that he really thinks. But I think 334 00:18:05.220 --> 00:18:10.109 that this human instinct to want to know the truth 335 00:18:10.180 --> 00:18:17.069 about what happened must prevail, right? But my original point 336 00:18:17.109 --> 00:18:20.829 was like, why is Dr. Fauci allegedly the only one 337 00:18:20.849 --> 00:18:24.269 who can really tell us about the Wuhan lab leak? 338 00:18:24.369 --> 00:18:30.009 Where's the CIA? Where's the ODNI? Where's DOD? Where are 339 00:18:30.750 --> 00:18:34.450 other organizations that you know have that information? 340 00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:35.380 Yeah. 341 00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:38.630 You know they do. If Fauci had it, they had it. 342 00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:43.119 Why aren't they bringing that to the public domain right now? 343 00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:45.339 That's a very good question. So I want to ask 344 00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:47.809 you about this book. Like, what was your motivation for 345 00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:50.150 writing it? How did you get involved in this? Like, 346 00:18:50.230 --> 00:18:53.349 I know you pick a subject and you go deep 347 00:18:53.710 --> 00:18:55.509 and you dive deep and then you write your book. 348 00:18:55.569 --> 00:18:57.970 So why biological war? Yeah. 349 00:18:59.390 --> 00:19:02.589 My first six books were written in the past tense. Like, 350 00:19:02.710 --> 00:19:08.200 you know, the Nazi scientists who came to America, Area 51, 351 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:13.420 the Pentagon's brain. The nuclear war and biological war are 352 00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:17.509 written in the future. They're scenarios based on Pentagon war games. 353 00:19:18.430 --> 00:19:23.029 And that was me realizing, like, there are major existential 354 00:19:23.069 --> 00:19:27.369 threats right now speeding up at the rate of science, 355 00:19:27.490 --> 00:19:30.960 which is going faster every day, literally. And so I 356 00:19:31.099 --> 00:19:35.619 modeled the two books after Pentagon War Games and got 357 00:19:35.789 --> 00:19:38.970 access to people who actually run these games at the Pentagon. 358 00:19:39.710 --> 00:19:44.589 And learned the sort of holy shit people are preparing 359 00:19:44.710 --> 00:19:49.289 for the worst case scenario. And no one knows about it. 360 00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:52.339 Is that their job though? I mean, that is their job. 361 00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:54.720 They have to be preparing for the worst case scenario. 362 00:19:55.259 --> 00:19:59.009 The real question is, are you preparing by creating it? 363 00:20:00.309 --> 00:20:01.609 The defense department or us? 364 00:20:01.890 --> 00:20:02.730 Well, whoever's, yeah. 365 00:20:02.930 --> 00:20:06.579 Um, Well, what I wanted to do first of all 366 00:20:06.680 --> 00:20:09.079 was like I'm just naturally curious. I wanted to know 367 00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:13.619 like what are they– how does that preparation play out? 368 00:20:15.220 --> 00:20:18.230 The most shocking thing about nuclear was to find out like, oh, 369 00:20:18.250 --> 00:20:22.430 there is no plan because we're all dead. That's literally 370 00:20:22.470 --> 00:20:25.950 the quote from the FEMA director. There is no population 371 00:20:26.009 --> 00:20:30.170 protection planning after a nuclear strike because everyone is dead. 372 00:20:30.670 --> 00:20:34.150 Don't forget your morals and hope you stalked Pedia-like. That's 373 00:20:34.170 --> 00:20:38.829 what he told me. Bio is totally different. 374 00:20:38.900 --> 00:20:39.619 Why Pedialyte? 375 00:20:40.269 --> 00:20:43.630 Pedialyte, you know that stuff you give your kids to drink? Yeah, electrolytes. 376 00:20:43.910 --> 00:20:44.849 Yeah, not just kids. 377 00:20:45.509 --> 00:20:48.309 Or you, right? That's what he said. 378 00:20:48.329 --> 00:20:50.069 Well, athletes take it when they cut weight. 379 00:20:50.130 --> 00:20:54.430 It's been a while since I've been an athlete. So, yeah, 380 00:20:54.450 --> 00:20:57.930 that's what he said. It was like, wow, that's what 381 00:20:57.950 --> 00:21:00.299 they're thinking about nuclear. It's just lights out. 382 00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:01.059 Why Pedialyte, though? 383 00:21:01.559 --> 00:21:02.599 I guess for the electrolytes. 384 00:21:03.230 --> 00:21:06.069 Does that protect– I know– what is it, iodine that 385 00:21:06.170 --> 00:21:07.210 people tell you to take? 386 00:21:07.529 --> 00:21:09.309 I always got the sense that the– I should have 387 00:21:09.329 --> 00:21:10.710 done a follow-up question, Joe. 388 00:21:11.470 --> 00:21:11.589 Yeah. 389 00:21:11.789 --> 00:21:13.509 Why Pedialyte? I always got the sense in the same 390 00:21:13.549 --> 00:21:15.890 way that when your kids are babies and they get 391 00:21:15.930 --> 00:21:18.880 diarrhea that you give them Pedialyte to like, you know, 392

00:21:20.339 --> 00:21:25.019 get their system filled with necessary electrolytes. So that's– and 393 00:21:25.059 --> 00:21:28.440 I also got the sense that it was like hydration and, 394 00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:30.380 you know, better than water. 395 00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:32.799 God. Yeah. 396 00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:39.759 But bio, I learned, is a completely different animal because 397 00:21:39.779 --> 00:21:43.420 what they're really worried about is the secondary effect of 398 00:21:43.589 --> 00:21:47.589 panic and anarchy. And that was really interesting to me 399 00:21:47.609 --> 00:21:50.549 because having written all these books about, you know, the 400 00:21:50.589 --> 00:21:55.130 Defense Department and the CIA, the programs are very, you know, 401 00:21:55.150 --> 00:21:58.269 they're very structured and ordered and they don't take place 402 00:21:58.450 --> 00:22:02.250 in the homeland because we're always fighting wars overseas. So 403 00:22:02.329 --> 00:22:06.529 to learn about a program that would go down in 404 00:22:06.569 --> 00:22:11.069 the continental United States where, you know, the Insurrection Act 405 00:22:11.190 --> 00:22:18.990 gets declared, posse comitatus gets lifted, the military takes over, dot, dot, dot, 406 00:22:19.069 --> 00:22:21.250 and then it goes from there, third act of the book, 407 00:22:21.269 --> 00:22:24.910 spoiler alert. That was shocking to me. And it was 408 00:22:25.170 --> 00:22:28.349 equally shocking that I could actually get this information. A 409 00:22:28.609 --> 00:22:31.759 lot of it's classified, but the names of some of 410 00:22:31.779 --> 00:22:35.640 the programs are unclassified. So the officials that I interviewed 411 00:22:36.069 --> 00:22:38.009 took me up to the edge of what can be 412 00:22:38.069 --> 00:22:43.269 legally known. And I also got the sense of like, oh, 413 00:22:43.690 --> 00:22:48.109 the sense that these former officials are conveying is the 414 00:22:48.210 --> 00:22:52.990 public should know about this. My personal interpretation is like, 415 00:22:53.069 --> 00:22:57.299 let's stop arguing about stuff that doesn't matter and get 416 00:22:57.359 --> 00:22:59.839 to the facts and start realizing where the real threats are. 417 00:23:00.440 --> 00:23:05.589 So their real fear is worrying about the The aftermath, 418 00:23:06.410 --> 00:23:10.490 worrying about chaos in the streets, rioting, looting, that's the 419 00:23:10.539 --> 00:23:11.059 real fear? 420 00:23:11.319 --> 00:23:14.779 That's the real fear. You can search up any of, 421 00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:20.900 so there's unclassified pandemic plans, which are done by like FEMA, DHS. 422 00:23:21.460 --> 00:23:26.920 They're always done by former officials, former SECDEF, former CDC director, 423 00:23:27.339 --> 00:23:31.690 sitting around a table running a pandemic planning game. They 424 00:23:31.710 --> 00:23:33.869 do them at the Defense Department and they call it, 425 00:23:34.569 --> 00:23:39.609 a biological catastrophe, war game. Those are declassified. All of 426 00:23:39.670 --> 00:23:43.970 them that I was looking at go through the series 427 00:23:44.009 --> 00:23:47.670 of events, you know, outbreak, infection, sort of everyone trying 428 00:23:47.710 --> 00:23:52.819 to mitigate the release, the spread. And then it gets 429 00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:55.599 to a certain point. In my scenario, it's day six 430 00:23:55.619 --> 00:23:59.920 because pneumonic plague is fast. There's a point in all 431 00:23:59.940 --> 00:24:05.289 these plans where anarchy and chaos takes over And the 432 00:24:05.329 --> 00:24:06.089 war game ends. 433 00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:07.380 Ends. 434 00:24:08.500 --> 00:24:11.380 Like, oh, and now we're done here. And I would 435 00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:14.980 say as the journalist, like to myself, what happens next? 436 00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:18.799 What happens next? And why aren't we learning about it? 437 00:24:19.160 --> 00:24:21.769 They don't have any plans for what happens after Anarchy 438 00:24:21.789 --> 00:24:22.410 and Chaos? 439 00:24:22.490 --> 00:24:26.890 They do. They just don't have it in the declassified games. 440 00:24:27.029 --> 00:24:33.579 There's a plan called the Devolution Plan. Eyebrows up for 441 00:24:33.660 --> 00:24:34.079 a reason. 442 00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:35.210 I don't like that word. 443 00:24:35.309 --> 00:24:38.160 Think about evolution. Now put a D in front of it. 444 00:24:38.849 --> 00:24:39.150 Yeah. 445 00:24:39.829 --> 00:24:43.230 Instead of going forward, you're going backward. So you've heard 446 00:24:43.269 --> 00:24:48.470 of DEFCON, right? Okay, so DEFCON, Defense Readiness Condition. There's five. 447 00:24:49.609 --> 00:24:53.019 Five is the lowest. That's like normal every day. At 9-11, 448 00:24:53.059 --> 00:24:58.220 we were at three. DEFCON 1 means nuclear war. There's 449 00:24:58.259 --> 00:25:04.890 a separate structure of readiness condition called COGCON. Probably haven't 450 00:25:04.930 --> 00:25:09.559 heard of it because it's classified. Stands for Continuity of 451 00:25:09.660 --> 00:25:18.599 Government Readiness Condition. It's got four levels. Four is every day. 452 00:25:18.619 --> 00:25:26.809 One is insurrection. The Insurrection Act gets declared. COGCON 1 453 00:25:26.809 --> 00:25:30.650 is in effect. And the devolution plan happens, which I 454 00:25:30.730 --> 00:25:37.619 learned means... a subset of pre-designated officials. They know who 455 00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:43.380 they are. They've signed contracts. They've rehearsed it. They go out. 456 00:25:44.269 --> 00:25:47.809 In the words of the former FEMA director, COG CON 1, 457 00:25:47.809 --> 00:25:51.730 you send your devolution crews out. They go out to 458 00:25:51.769 --> 00:25:56.509 a hot site, warm site, or cold site, underground bunkers 459 00:25:56.609 --> 00:26:00.440 located around the United States. This is from an actual 460 00:26:01.119 -->

00:26:06.640 FEMA chief telling me this. And they set up how 461 00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:09.339 to run the government because the idea is all the 462 00:26:09.400 --> 00:26:13.200 regular government people will probably be dead of anarchy, insurrection, 463 00:26:13.220 --> 00:26:14.539 mnemonic plague. 464 00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:17.640 So they have bunkers. 465 00:26:18.940 --> 00:26:20.319 And those are classified. 466 00:26:20.559 --> 00:26:21.309 The bunkers are. 467 00:26:21.569 --> 00:26:22.109 Where they are. 468 00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:26.390 Do you remember there was the bunker after 9-11 where 469 00:26:26.450 --> 00:26:28.829 Dick Cheney was in the bunker but George Bush was 470 00:26:28.869 --> 00:26:30.250 just like hanging out? 471 00:26:30.329 --> 00:26:32.430 I think they left him in Texas or he was 472 00:26:32.509 --> 00:26:33.130 on his ranch. 473 00:26:33.890 --> 00:26:35.769 He was just out there in the world. 474 00:26:35.950 --> 00:26:38.849 You know what? I had someone tell me where he was, 475 00:26:39.430 --> 00:26:42.650 and I went through, like, a problem with, like, legal, 476 00:26:42.690 --> 00:26:44.509 whether I could say this. So I had to say, 477 00:26:45.309 --> 00:26:48.410 I was told, but, you know, it's not verified, something 478 00:26:48.430 --> 00:26:53.660 like that. But one of the CIA spy pilots, Ken Collins, 479 00:26:53.700 --> 00:26:56.220 he famously flew the ox cart out at Area 51. 480 00:26:56.220 --> 00:26:59.279 He told me that on 9-11, George Bush was driving 481 00:26:59.319 --> 00:27:02.240 around in Texas, maybe it was in Florida, in the 482 00:27:02.279 --> 00:27:06.430 back of a laundry truck. That's how they kept him hidden. 483 00:27:07.869 --> 00:27:08.250 What? 484 00:27:09.690 --> 00:27:10.769 A laundry truck. 485 00:27:10.789 --> 00:27:12.910 Did they just have it look like a laundry truck 486 00:27:12.950 --> 00:27:14.990 and it outfitted with like regular seats in the back 487 00:27:15.029 --> 00:27:18.140 and that's how they drive him around? A bulletproof laundry truck? 488 00:27:18.220 --> 00:27:20.480 No, I think he got like, I think it was like, 489 00:27:20.539 --> 00:27:22.259 what do we do with him? And that was what 490 00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:25.650 was available. A laundry truck. A laundry truck. That's what 491 00:27:25.710 --> 00:27:27.789 I was told by like a very reliable source. 492 00:27:27.809 --> 00:27:31.170 That was available, meaning there was nothing else available that 493 00:27:31.190 --> 00:27:32.089 was incognito? 494 00:27:32.150 --> 00:27:35.529 They were trying to transport him to the doomsday plane, 495 00:27:35.690 --> 00:27:38.670 which is where he ended up going, into the doomsday 496 00:27:38.710 --> 00:27:40.609 plane and flying around in circles. 497 00:27:40.630 --> 00:27:44.839 And they thought that like a caravan of SUVs would 498 00:27:44.859 --> 00:27:49.420 be too obvious? Yes. Wow. Yeah. 499 00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:53.589 So you learn really

pretty quickly that There's all these 500 00:27:53.650 --> 00:27:57.289 plans in place, but then it becomes like ad hoc 501 00:27:57.549 --> 00:28:01.880 or like on the fly in an actual crisis or emergency. 502 00:28:03.180 --> 00:28:05.220 Whoa. Yeah. 503 00:28:05.640 --> 00:28:08.779 But, okay, you're referring to Mount Weather. That's where Dick 504 00:28:08.819 --> 00:28:09.400 Cheney went. 505 00:28:09.880 --> 00:28:10.720 Okay. Where's that? 506 00:28:10.759 --> 00:28:14.200 So Mount Weather is in the mountains outside of D.C. 507 00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:16.369 There's mountains outside of D.C.? Right. 508 00:28:16.650 --> 00:28:16.849 Really? 509 00:28:16.869 --> 00:28:18.009 In the Blue Ridge Mountains. 510 00:28:18.390 --> 00:28:19.109 Oh, how far are those? 511 00:28:19.109 --> 00:28:19.369 175 miles. Okay. 512 00:28:19.390 --> 00:28:20.309 Okay. 513 00:28:23.410 --> 00:28:28.099 So the Pentagon has an alternate command center called Raven Rock, 514 00:28:28.519 --> 00:28:29.359 underground bunker. 515 00:28:30.440 --> 00:28:32.180 That sounds like it's right out of a video game. 516 00:28:32.359 --> 00:28:36.119 It sounds like they probably have put it in. That's 517 00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:38.420 a real like it used to be classified and no 518 00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:39.910 one used to know about it. And now it's kind 519 00:28:39.950 --> 00:28:42.130 of like out there. The official. 520 00:28:42.150 --> 00:28:44.809 Is this it, Jamie? This is the bunker. Oh, we 521 00:28:44.829 --> 00:28:47.730 have a map of it. We got blueprints. What do 522 00:28:47.750 --> 00:28:48.210 you want to know? 523 00:28:48.210 --> 00:28:51.049 51 miles from D.C. 524 00:28:51.289 --> 00:28:53.890 How deep is it? 51 miles from D.C.? At least 525 00:28:53.930 --> 00:28:56.410 seven levels. Wow. 526 00:28:56.809 --> 00:28:58.069 The Oval Office would be at the bottom. 527 00:28:58.430 --> 00:28:59.210 That's crazy. 528 00:28:59.250 --> 00:29:00.950 So that's where Cheney was on 9-11. 529 00:29:00.990 --> 00:29:02.769 So is that where, like, a nuclear bomb can't get 530 00:29:02.809 --> 00:29:03.069 to it? 531 00:29:03.730 --> 00:29:06.730 A nuclear bomb would take it all out. In nuclear war, 532 00:29:06.769 --> 00:29:09.309 I'd destroy all of those. I mean, I don't destroy them. 533 00:29:09.349 --> 00:29:12.430 I show you how they would be destroyed. Russia would put, like, 534 00:29:12.630 --> 00:29:16.319 five nuclear bombs on Raven Rock, and it would just— 535 00:29:16.359 --> 00:29:18.079 Just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. That would be it. 536 00:29:19.089 --> 00:29:22.890 And also the fires alone would just incinerate everyone inside. 537 00:29:23.069 --> 00:29:26.369 Also, how are you getting your air? Where's your air 538 00:29:26.410 --> 00:29:29.690 coming from? Your air is going to be contaminated with 539 00:29:29.730 --> 00:29:30.839 nuclear fallout, right? 540 00:29:30.839 --> 00:29:31.039 Yes. 541 00:29:31.039 --> 00:29:32.970 Is this what it looks like? I don't know. 542 00:29:32.970 --> 00:29:34.750 There's a bunch of some of those pictures were coming 543 00:29:34.789 --> 00:29:39.049 from tumblers I don't. 544 00:29:37.390 --> 00:29:39.970 Know I think they take the real the real pictures 545 00:29:40.009 --> 00:29:42.049 and then they turn them into you know comic books 546 00:29:42.170 --> 00:29:44.460 but right but you can see some of. 547 00:29:44.670 --> 00:29:48.000 So look how it's got this like entrance carved into 548 00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:51.299 the side of the mountain the big cement wall and 549 00:29:51.339 --> 00:29:55.019 he goes through that yeah you know we were talking 550 00:29:55.059 --> 00:29:59.420 about this the other day we're talking about Darren Cuyo 551 00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:03.480 Do you know what that is? It's an underground facility 552 00:30:03.579 --> 00:30:04.400 that's in Turkey. 553 00:30:05.220 --> 00:30:06.420 Yes, I do know about that. 554 00:30:06.720 --> 00:30:07.759 That they found by accident. 555 00:30:07.819 --> 00:30:08.099 Yes. 556 00:30:08.299 --> 00:30:11.799 What was it, the 1970s? Like a sheep herder. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 557 00:30:12.019 --> 00:30:16.299 It was being used to hide people up until the 1920s. Whoa. Yeah, 558 00:30:16.359 --> 00:30:18.460 like the Greeks were hiding from people invading Greece. 559 00:30:19.079 --> 00:30:22.559 Or Turkey, I guess. So it can house 20,000 people 560 00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:26.420 under there, and they really don't know why they made 561 00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:27.400 it or who made it. 562 00:30:28.950 --> 00:30:32.750 Turkey is crazy. It's such an old civilization with like 563 00:30:33.210 --> 00:30:36.950 layers upon layers upon layers of just when you think 564 00:30:37.009 --> 00:30:38.490 it's really old, it gets even older. 565 00:30:38.769 --> 00:30:42.710 Well, that's Gobekli Tepe, right? Where they had to redate. Well, 566 00:30:42.730 --> 00:30:48.099 they still resist it. What constitutes modern civilization or civilization 567 00:30:48.140 --> 00:30:51.539 in general? They're still trying to say some archaeologists are 568 00:30:51.559 --> 00:30:54.240 hanging on tooth and claw, trying to say that hunter 569 00:30:54.299 --> 00:30:58.789 gatherers made these enormous stone columns with 3D drawings that 570 00:30:59.549 --> 00:31:02.049 seem to be a calendar of some sort of a 571 00:31:02.089 --> 00:31:03.109 cataclysmic event. 572 00:31:03.190 --> 00:31:04.690 So some of the pictures we were just looking at 573 00:31:04.710 --> 00:31:06.990 from Mount Weather may be not accurate because it's also 574 00:31:07.089 --> 00:31:09.329 used in the TV show The 100. 575 00:31:09.329 --> 00:31:11.289 Oh. Yeah. But it is a real place. 576 00:31:11.309 --> 00:31:12.869 But, yeah, that's probably where they get it from. 577 00:31:12.990 --> 00:31:14.470 So what we were looking at, I think, was the 578 00:31:14.490 --> 00:31:15.549 stuff from the TV show. 579 00:31:15.710 --> 00:31:18.829

What is that? What's The 100? 580 00:31:19.089 --> 00:31:21.380 Like a show like Silo or something where people are, 581 00:31:21.390 --> 00:31:23.430 you know, 100 people left or something like that, I think. 582 00:31:24.160 --> 00:31:26.349 That's what we had Tim Robbins on. We were talking 583 00:31:26.369 --> 00:31:28.259 about Silo. Have you seen that show, Silo? Not yet. 584 00:31:28.509 --> 00:31:28.759 Not yet. 585 00:31:28.769 --> 00:31:30.109 Really good show. It's great. It's on Apple. 586 00:31:30.150 --> 00:31:30.289 Great. 587 00:31:30.869 --> 00:31:34.369 And it's essentially about an underground civilization that survives some 588 00:31:34.410 --> 00:31:36.730 sort of cataclysm. They don't exactly say in the beginning. 589 00:31:36.750 --> 00:31:38.890 I'm early on the show. They don't say what the 590 00:31:38.930 --> 00:31:41.299 cataclysm is, but these people have to live like deep, deep, 591 00:31:41.339 --> 00:31:45.059 deep underground in these self-containing facilities, and you can't go 592 00:31:45.099 --> 00:31:46.019 outside or you'll die. 593 00:31:46.039 --> 00:31:48.819 Yes, I think I read it about it. 594 00:31:49.400 --> 00:31:52.279 So Darren Kuyu could house 20,000 people. 595 00:31:52.299 --> 00:31:52.720 Wow. 596 00:31:52.819 --> 00:31:56.910 And they had They had pastures or they had storage 597 00:31:57.349 --> 00:32:02.269 for cattle and grain and water and wine and oil presses. 598 00:32:02.289 --> 00:32:04.349 It was like crazy shit. 599 00:32:04.730 --> 00:32:06.329 And how many thousands of years? 600 00:32:06.609 --> 00:32:07.450 They don't know. 601 00:32:07.490 --> 00:32:08.029 They don't even know. 602 00:32:08.049 --> 00:32:10.470 They don't know. They don't know who made it. They 603 00:32:10.509 --> 00:32:15.779 didn't know it existed. They found it. Imagine a guy. 604 00:32:16.140 --> 00:32:18.880 The initial story was that his chickens had gone through 605 00:32:18.920 --> 00:32:21.099 a hole. And he's like, where are these chickens going? 606 00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:22.380 They never come back. And they. 607 00:32:23.799 --> 00:32:25.700 The disappearing Turkish chickens. 608 00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:28.539 So they knock down these walls and then they find 609 00:32:28.599 --> 00:32:31.529 this thing and they haven't even explored all of it. 610 00:32:31.670 --> 00:32:35.329 They don't even have all of it explored yet. It's insane. 611 00:32:35.710 --> 00:32:38.349 It's so big and it's just there and they don't 612 00:32:38.369 --> 00:32:40.069 know why and they don't know who made it and 613 00:32:40.089 --> 00:32:42.089 they don't know what they're hiding from. This is what 614 00:32:42.289 --> 00:32:42.750 it looks like. 615 00:32:43.289 --> 00:32:44.579 Yeah, it's incredible. 616 00:32:45.019 --> 00:32:50.339 It's really crazy because it's absolutely enormous. Is this Derinkuyu 617 00:32:50.359 --> 00:32:52.700 right here? This is like some of the tunnels. 618 00:32:53.380 --> 00:32:55.740 Yeah, I get confused since they've landed on 10% of it. 619 00:32:55.759 --> 00:32:58.119 Like that's obviously a fake, but I don't know how 620 00:32:58.140 --> 00:32:59.660 much of that is what it is because it's supposed 621 00:32:59.680 --> 00:33:00.529 to be underground, right? 622 00:33:00.869 --> 00:33:04.150 Yeah, that doesn't look real. That seems like somebody made 623 00:33:04.190 --> 00:33:06.529 that up. But the actual image is like that's an image, 624 00:33:06.589 --> 00:33:09.549 which is the best Darren Cuyu underground, like there, yeah, 625 00:33:09.650 --> 00:33:13.809 right there. That's what it really looked like. So imagine 626 00:33:13.829 --> 00:33:17.019 they find this underground, and they don't even know how 627 00:33:17.160 --> 00:33:19.839 old it is because if you find some stuff, you 628 00:33:19.900 --> 00:33:22.829 can't carbon date the walls. That's right. you can't carbon 629 00:33:22.849 --> 00:33:25.269 date the carvings. So they have to find things that 630 00:33:25.309 --> 00:33:26.990 are left there. But if people are hanging out there 631 00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:29.599 until the 1920s, like, so they really don't even know 632 00:33:29.970 --> 00:33:33.160 if you find something, how old it is. You can guess, 633 00:33:33.220 --> 00:33:35.759 but you don't know, like, how old was the building 634 00:33:35.799 --> 00:33:37.920 when this person was there? Was it thousands of years 635 00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:39.000 old already? They don't know. 636 00:33:39.480 --> 00:33:42.720 It's interesting how the archaeologists that have a, like, have 637 00:33:42.740 --> 00:33:46.299 skin in the game with an other theory resist that. 638 00:33:46.460 --> 00:33:49.319 And it takes a while. It's like with Gobekli Tepe, 639 00:33:49.380 --> 00:33:54.970 you know, now there's, investigations going on, archaeological digs nearby. 640 00:33:55.730 --> 00:33:58.390 And lo and behold, they're finding other things, which makes 641 00:33:58.430 --> 00:33:58.849 me feel like. 642 00:33:58.950 --> 00:33:59.710 All over the area. 643 00:33:59.750 --> 00:34:02.579 Yeah, all over the place, of course. It didn't exist 644 00:34:02.740 --> 00:34:03.400 on its own. 645 00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:04.539 Yeah, of course. 646 00:34:04.579 --> 00:34:07.220 Some kind of advanced civilization has neighbors. 647 00:34:07.220 --> 00:34:10.440 11,000 plus years ago. It's so crazy. It's so weird 648 00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:12.889 because we keep pushing the dates further and further back. 649 00:34:12.929 --> 00:34:15.789 Like Graham Hancock always says, stuff just keeps getting older. 650 00:34:16.469 --> 00:34:19.090 And so it makes you wonder, like, have we gone 651 00:34:19.170 --> 00:34:23.590 through something like this before? Whether it's a natural catastrophe 652 00:34:23.670 --> 00:34:25.630 or whatever it was. 653 00:34:26.010 --> 00:34:29.110 Remember when we were kids, it was like the Lascaux 654 00:34:29.150 --> 00:34:32.570 Caves were the

oldest thing ever. I don't even remember. 655 00:34:32.590 --> 00:34:32.929 Where was that? 656 00:34:33.179 --> 00:34:35.239 In France. Remember the drawing of the bull? 657 00:34:35.260 --> 00:34:36.159 Oh, right, right, right. 658 00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:37.780 I remember that from the history books. 659 00:34:37.900 --> 00:34:41.860 That's from that Werner Herzog documentary. In France. 660 00:34:42.530 --> 00:34:43.489 It's a great one. 661 00:34:43.510 --> 00:34:43.829 Amazing. 662 00:34:43.869 --> 00:34:44.690 Has he been on this show? 663 00:34:44.809 --> 00:34:46.239 No, I want to get him on. You have to 664 00:34:46.260 --> 00:34:46.880 get him on. I love that guy. 665 00:34:47.070 --> 00:34:48.400 He's the neighbor of my kids. 666 00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:51.380 Whoa. Yeah. Well, I don't want to say where he lives. 667 00:34:51.420 --> 00:34:52.219 People go find him. 668 00:34:52.239 --> 00:34:55.920 But that's pretty cool. In L.A. So we'll track him down. 669 00:34:56.059 --> 00:34:57.420 He's my favorite documentarian. 670 00:34:57.820 --> 00:34:59.980 Oh, absolutely. Grizzly Man is one of my favorites of 671 00:35:00.039 --> 00:35:00.300 all time. 672 00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:01.900 Grizzly Man is epic. 673 00:35:02.369 --> 00:35:05.969 Yeah. Have you seen Happy People? No. That's a great one, too. 674 00:35:06.070 --> 00:35:06.550 Is that new? 675 00:35:06.829 --> 00:35:08.949 No. No, it's a few years old. It's Life in 676 00:35:08.989 --> 00:35:11.130 the Taiga, Happy People, Life in the Taiga. It's about 677 00:35:11.170 --> 00:35:14.989 these people that live in Siberia off the Taiga River, 678 00:35:15.250 --> 00:35:18.030 and they're the happiest people. And all they do is 679 00:35:18.090 --> 00:35:21.280 hunt and fish and trap, and they get together. They 680 00:35:21.300 --> 00:35:24.760 have a really strong community. They drink, and they're laughing, 681 00:35:24.780 --> 00:35:27.579 and they have no mental illness. It's really weird as 682 00:35:27.619 --> 00:35:28.460 he documents it. 683 00:35:29.260 --> 00:35:32.159 Have you seen Little Dieter Needs to Fly? 684 00:35:32.440 --> 00:35:34.119 No. Oh, my God. 685 00:35:34.179 --> 00:35:37.719 The only man rescued from Laos during the Vietnam War. 686 00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:43.280 And Herzog, he's died since, Dieter. But Herzog goes with 687 00:35:43.340 --> 00:35:44.800 him back into the jungle. 688 00:35:45.340 --> 00:35:45.619 Wow. 689 00:35:45.929 --> 00:35:47.489 Oh, my God. You're going to love it. It's a 690 00:35:47.570 --> 00:35:50.110 treat that you haven't seen it yet. Little Dieter needs 691 00:35:50.130 --> 00:35:50.570 to fly. 692 00:35:50.690 --> 00:35:53.110 That guy is such a world treasure. Oh, my God. 693 00:35:53.170 --> 00:35:57.550 Just his voice and, like, his perspective on everything. Just 694 00:35:57.570 --> 00:36:00.530 when you think, just when I think I know what 695 00:36:00.550 --> 00:36:04.550 he's going for. Takes you like on a complete left

turn. 696 00:36:05.230 --> 00:36:09.250 And you're left like, at least for me, thinking about 697 00:36:09.289 --> 00:36:12.199 the world in a completely new original way. 698 00:36:12.440 --> 00:36:12.820 Yeah. 699 00:36:13.300 --> 00:36:15.780 So these caves in France, they thought that that was 700 00:36:15.800 --> 00:36:18.019 the old, but that was really old, right? Wasn't that 701 00:36:18.380 --> 00:36:20.440 like 30 plus thousand year old drawings? 702 00:36:20.559 --> 00:36:22.679 I think maybe Jamie can check for us. I think 703 00:36:22.699 --> 00:36:23.280 they were like 7,000 B.C. 704 00:36:26.139 --> 00:36:27.699 I think they were older than that. 705 00:36:27.719 --> 00:36:32.719 Discovered in 1940 by four teenagers. Closed in 63. All 706 00:36:32.760 --> 00:36:35.869 paintings created around 17,000 years ago. 707 00:36:35.869 --> 00:36:35.969 17,000. 708 00:36:35.969 --> 00:36:36.269 Okay. 709 00:36:36.630 --> 00:36:39.309 Yeah. That's it? God, I thought it was older. That's 710 00:36:39.329 --> 00:36:41.869 just a quick explanation. This is the Werner Herzog documentary? 711 00:36:43.130 --> 00:36:47.159 I thought they were like literal cavemen made it. Well, 712 00:36:47.199 --> 00:36:53.440 I mean. So that's only 17,000 years ago? That's what 713 00:36:53.460 --> 00:36:57.059 that says. Interesting. I really thought it was a lot 714 00:36:57.159 --> 00:36:57.739 older than that. 715 00:36:59.960 --> 00:37:02.079 But then they come up with like the hand on 716 00:37:02.099 --> 00:37:06.710 the cave in Indonesia. I think that's 40,000. 717 00:37:06.710 --> 00:37:10.349 Believed to be 19,000 years ago. That's interesting. So at 718 00:37:10.489 --> 00:37:12.449 one point in time, they thought that was the oldest. 719 00:37:12.909 --> 00:37:14.630 When I was a kid, I remember that. 720 00:37:14.650 --> 00:37:18.210 It's not quite what it says. It says the painting 721 00:37:18.250 --> 00:37:20.670 for the site were duplicated with the same materials which 722 00:37:20.690 --> 00:37:23.320 were used to believe, like, Which were used 19,000 years. 723 00:37:23.340 --> 00:37:26.940 That doesn't mean. Oh, right. It could still be older. Right. 724 00:37:27.239 --> 00:37:29.820 They knew that they used them 19,000 years ago, but 725 00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:33.099 they could have used them a lot earlier than that. Right, right. 726 00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:38.349 We don't have documents. Crazy stuff, though. Just imagine, like, 727 00:37:38.829 --> 00:37:39.610 living back then. 728 00:37:40.909 --> 00:37:44.349 It is wild when you think about the underground bunkers now. 729 00:37:45.050 --> 00:37:48.429 And it kind of has this spooky echo as an 730 00:37:48.550 --> 00:37:49.559 archetype of. 731 00:37:49.570 --> 00:37:54.460 Hiding. Hiding. Hiding from the dangers. Yeah. Having a shelter 732 00:37:55.099 --> 00:37:59.130 and hiding from the dangers. That trope, that thought of 733 00:37:59.150 --> 00:38:04.449 a bunker, there's a lot of supposedly wealthy people. Well, 734 00:38:04.469 --> 00:38:07.869 they are wealthy, but supposedly they have these underground bunkers. 735 00:38:08.409 --> 00:38:10.469 That's what you always hear. These rich people, these billionaires 736 00:38:10.530 --> 00:38:12.349 are setting up bunkers in New Zealand because they know 737 00:38:12.389 --> 00:38:14.949 something's coming. Like, oh, Jesus. Right? 738 00:38:15.190 --> 00:38:16.690 Good luck getting there in time. 739 00:38:16.710 --> 00:38:16.989 Yeah. 740 00:38:17.010 --> 00:38:21.360 Right. Right. Right. If the shit goes down and you 741 00:38:21.380 --> 00:38:23.260 happen to be in Hawaii and you've got to get 742 00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:23.920 to New Zealand. 743 00:38:24.820 --> 00:38:28.019 Also, your bodyguards are a lot stronger than you are. 744 00:38:28.980 --> 00:38:30.199 Well, wouldn't you bring them with you? 745 00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:32.679 Yeah, but it's going to be every man for themselves. 746 00:38:33.940 --> 00:38:35.420 Well, wouldn't you have... If you're going to have that 747 00:38:35.480 --> 00:38:36.980 kind of money to make a... Wouldn't you have a 748 00:38:37.039 --> 00:38:39.320 bunker that could house a few hundred people so that 749 00:38:39.340 --> 00:38:43.409 you could... You know, nobody gets insurrection in your movement? 750 00:38:43.800 --> 00:38:45.969 I mean, I suppose if you bring everybody's family, you 751 00:38:45.989 --> 00:38:48.349 have to have a lot of preparing for this. That's 752 00:38:48.389 --> 00:38:53.039 what really... kept taking me back to the documents in 753 00:38:53.059 --> 00:38:57.639 the Defense Department about fear of infection creates anarchy and 754 00:38:57.679 --> 00:39:03.070 insurrection because this idea of fear of infection, people begin to, 755 00:39:03.230 --> 00:39:07.789 their mind actually begins to change in the studies under scarcity. 756 00:39:08.570 --> 00:39:12.429 And scarcity coupled with fear of infection, it's so visceral. 757 00:39:12.989 --> 00:39:17.340 It's as much of an archetype as the bunker, being infected. Very, 758 00:39:17.420 --> 00:39:21.679 very different than being shot at. You get the sense 759 00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:24.360 if you can get into the bunker if you're being 760 00:39:24.400 --> 00:39:29.090 attacked with a physical weapon. Okay, I'm safe now. Close 761 00:39:29.110 --> 00:39:32.960 the doors. Make a fire. But with fear of infection, 762 00:39:32.980 --> 00:39:36.829 I mean a biological weapon or any pathogen is a 763 00:39:37.030 --> 00:39:42.269 living munition. It self-replicates. And it's got an incubation period. 764 00:39:43.139 --> 00:39:44.550 So then it, right? 765 00:39:44.670 --> 00:39:47.090 So then you can be infected and not know it 766 00:39:47.489 --> 00:39:49.590 while it's incubating inside of your body. And then you 767 00:39:49.630 --> 00:39:53.170 infect a bunch of other people as well. Yeah. Yeah. 768 00:39:53.269 --> 00:39:56.429 And we saw during COVID

how aggressive people got, screaming 769 00:39:56.489 --> 00:39:59.809 at people for not wearing masks. And, you know, that was, 770 00:40:00.510 --> 00:40:03.550 as far as pandemics go, fairly mild. 771 00:40:04.030 --> 00:40:04.199 Yeah. 772 00:40:04.699 --> 00:40:08.119 Fairly mild. Like, I mean, if you. go with the 773 00:40:08.179 --> 00:40:12.800 CDC's 1% or your 0.1%? It's not mine. 774 00:40:12.860 --> 00:40:13.449 It's perplexity. 775 00:40:13.469 --> 00:40:17.150 Right, perplexity is 1%. I mean, you're talking about a 776 00:40:17.369 --> 00:40:21.489 nothing burger compared to... Compared to pneumonic plague. Pneumonic plague. 777 00:40:21.550 --> 00:40:23.829 And there are, you know, I mean, look, I also 778 00:40:23.869 --> 00:40:25.969 write in the book, and this has never been reported 779 00:40:26.010 --> 00:40:31.269 before because I interviewed CIA officers who both debriefed the 780 00:40:31.309 --> 00:40:36.969 Soviet defectors and also people who chased... WMD in the 781 00:40:37.030 --> 00:40:39.809 Hands of Terrorists During the War on Terror. And I 782 00:40:39.869 --> 00:40:43.750 specifically didn't want to write that scenario because it's so 783 00:40:43.829 --> 00:40:48.239 loaded to go with, like, terrorist use of a biological agent. 784 00:40:48.880 --> 00:40:52.039 But I give you little history lessons when I stop 785 00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:57.199 the drama, one of which involves an al-Qaeda terrorist that 786 00:40:57.219 --> 00:41:00.360 was captured. She's actually now in Texas in a mental 787 00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:03.800 institution for the rest of her life. Her name's Afia Siddiqui. 788 00:41:04.730 --> 00:41:11.929 She's an MIT-trained biologist related by marriage to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. 789 00:41:12.239 --> 00:41:14.639 And she was leading the biological weapons program. This is 790 00:41:14.659 --> 00:41:16.559 according to the CIA officers. 791 00:41:16.579 --> 00:41:17.699 She was trained at MIT? 792 00:41:18.340 --> 00:41:20.300 She was trained at MIT, and then she went back 793 00:41:20.340 --> 00:41:24.159 to Pakistan. She was the first woman on the FBI's 794 00:41:24.639 --> 00:41:26.150 most wanted terrorist list. 795 00:41:26.369 --> 00:41:27.969 How come they have her in a mental institute? 796 00:41:28.190 --> 00:41:31.360 Because they caught her. And then this part is reported. 797 00:41:31.420 --> 00:41:34.719 They caught her and somehow, again the air quote, somehow 798 00:41:35.019 --> 00:41:38.619 she got a hold of a Marine's rifle and was 799 00:41:38.699 --> 00:41:42.460 firing at the FBI agents interviewing her. This is all public. 800 00:41:42.579 --> 00:41:45.900 And she was shot. They took her to the United States, 801 00:41:45.940 --> 00:41:48.619 gave her a trial, decided she was insane, put her 802 00:41:48.659 --> 00:41:52.320 in a mental institution. But what had never been revealed 803 00:41:52.360 --> 00:41:56.570 before my book is that in her handbag she had 804 00:41:56.789

--> 00:42:02.710 plans To create a genetically modified pathogen that mixed rabies 805 00:42:03.530 --> 00:42:10.869 with chicken pox. Think about that. Imagine airborne rabies. Rabies, 806 00:42:10.949 --> 00:42:14.349 like pneumonic plague, is one of the only other pathogens 807 00:42:14.389 --> 00:42:18.420 that has 100% death rate without countermeasures. 808 00:42:20.559 --> 00:42:23.090 And rabies. like when you see it in animals, I've 809 00:42:23.130 --> 00:42:27.860 never actually encountered a rabbit animal in the wild as 810 00:42:27.920 --> 00:42:32.139 much as I know. But when you see them, they 811 00:42:32.739 --> 00:42:35.820 want to infect something else. They get hyper aggressive. They 812 00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:38.460 want to bite you. So if they bite you, they 813 00:42:38.500 --> 00:42:41.469 give it to you, which is really crazy. Like this 814 00:42:41.929 --> 00:42:45.650 disease makes them throw their own safety out the window 815 00:42:45.710 --> 00:42:47.769 and just go after people and try to bite them. 816 00:42:48.349 --> 00:42:51.550 I mean, it's like a, It's like rabies is now 817 00:42:51.610 --> 00:42:56.489 its own rabid animal. You think of it, it's so visceral. 818 00:42:56.849 --> 00:43:00.409 It's going to come at you with its infected saliva. 819 00:43:00.889 --> 00:43:04.690 I almost went with the rabies scenario because I always, 820 00:43:05.210 --> 00:43:07.869 in these scenarios, tie them to actual events that have 821 00:43:07.909 --> 00:43:11.389 happened so that readers don't go like, this is Annie 822 00:43:11.449 --> 00:43:15.780 Jacobson's dystopian imagination. As much as they say, oh, she's 823 00:43:16.280 --> 00:43:19.840 following what, you know, science. This is science fact, not 824 00:43:19.860 --> 00:43:23.039 science fiction. And so when I learned about that plan 825 00:43:23.840 --> 00:43:28.139 for the genetic modification of rabies in chicken, airborne rabies, 826 00:43:28.659 --> 00:43:29.179 but then. 827 00:43:29.059 --> 00:43:30.860 I thought- How far did she get along with this? 828 00:43:31.139 --> 00:43:36.239 That is classified, Annie. But I did get a second person, 829 00:43:36.300 --> 00:43:39.039 David Relman, who's the advisor to the president on biodefense, 830 00:43:39.059 --> 00:43:43.010 to confirm with me that that was actually located in 831 00:43:43.070 --> 00:43:45.659 her handbag and caused Serious concern. 832 00:43:46.059 --> 00:43:48.260 And I imagine if they never found her, they never 833 00:43:48.340 --> 00:43:50.489 caught her, and she completed that. 834 00:43:50.510 --> 00:43:53.429 I mean, it's really terrifying. 835 00:43:53.530 --> 00:43:54.969 It wipes out most of the country. 836 00:43:55.170 --> 00:43:58.010 And also just in the most horrific way. You know, 837 00:43:58.230 --> 00:44:00.929 like having to look at your pet and be like, 838 00:44:01.110 --> 00:44:02.269 is my pet rabbit? 839 00:44:02.349 --> 00:44:04.590 It's just... Oh, Jesus. And he

did catch it, too? 840 00:44:04.730 --> 00:44:07.929 Another project. Oh, she had another project? Yes, multiple projects, apparently. 841 00:44:07.949 --> 00:44:11.210 She had collected materials on viruses for biological warfare, and 842 00:44:11.269 --> 00:44:13.389 one of her projects is finding its way to infect 843 00:44:13.449 --> 00:44:16.989 America's poultry supplies with an antibody that would allow chickens 844 00:44:17.030 --> 00:44:20.809 to pass salmonella onto humans more easily. She later destroyed 845 00:44:20.849 --> 00:44:26.010 her work after suspecting Abu Lubab... was hoping to double-cross 846 00:44:26.070 --> 00:44:28.460 her and turn her into the United States authorities. 847 00:44:29.360 --> 00:44:32.199 This is a long Wikipedia with quite a bit of 848 00:44:32.239 --> 00:44:34.039 twists and turns. I'm surprised it's not a movie. 849 00:44:35.159 --> 00:44:37.500 There's a lot going on. Oh, my God. And that's 850 00:44:37.659 --> 00:44:41.019 one person that we caught. Now, that's not like this 851 00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:43.110 is the only time they thought of that. This is 852 00:44:43.119 --> 00:44:45.309 the only person that they tried to recruit to do 853 00:44:45.349 --> 00:44:49.789 this kind of stuff. There's probably someone out there right now. Hence, 854 00:44:50.489 --> 00:44:50.889 your book. 855 00:44:51.389 --> 00:44:56.510 I mean, I interviewed... this guy, very famous, legendary CIA 856 00:44:56.590 --> 00:45:02.940 officer named Rolf Moat Larson. And he led the counter 857 00:45:03.300 --> 00:45:06.559 WMD team, right? So he would go to places basically 858 00:45:06.619 --> 00:45:10.320 like with a bunch of ground branch guys, CIA paramilitary 859 00:45:10.360 --> 00:45:14.159 guys behind him. He was kind of like the intelligentsia 860 00:45:14.199 --> 00:45:19.690 at the front to try to negotiate with Al-Qaeda weapons makers, 861 00:45:19.750 --> 00:45:24.050 biological weapons makers, and say like, you can't do this. 862 00:45:24.409 --> 00:45:26.820 It's going to kill all of us. And he told 863 00:45:26.840 --> 00:45:28.719 me a couple stories, and I write them like history 864 00:45:28.760 --> 00:45:31.340 lessons in the book. Once he went to Sudan and 865 00:45:31.380 --> 00:45:35.440 met with the top biological weapons maker for Al-Qaeda. And, like, 866 00:45:36.139 --> 00:45:39.789 you know, it's just chilling. It's basically you get the feeling, like, 867 00:45:40.949 --> 00:45:44.750 that Rolf said, I got them to agree to stop temporarily. 868 00:45:47.389 --> 00:45:48.130 Temporarily. 869 00:45:48.190 --> 00:45:48.820 Temporarily. 870 00:45:48.840 --> 00:45:51.380 Okay. 871 00:45:52.469 --> 00:45:54.309 Sorry, Joe. This is the nightmare stuff. 872 00:45:54.550 --> 00:45:56.469 So what do they think that they're going to do 873 00:45:56.670 --> 00:45:59.889 if they get into these bunkers? This is the thing. 874 00:45:59.969 --> 00:46:04.329 It's like if society completely collapses and anarchy just sweeps 875 00:46:04.389 --> 00:46:07.329 the nation and you've got cities on fire and people 876 00:46:07.389 --> 00:46:10.309 killing people and looting, eventually they're going to run out 877 00:46:10.329 --> 00:46:13.130 of food. Eventually there's going to be no infrastructure. You've 878 00:46:13.170 --> 00:46:15.610 got no power. You've got no one who's taking care 879 00:46:15.630 --> 00:46:18.050 of the water. No one's taking care of the satellites. 880 00:46:18.090 --> 00:46:20.429 No one's taking care of anything. The cell phone towers 881 00:46:20.469 --> 00:46:22.849 are down. What are these people in the bunker going 882 00:46:22.869 --> 00:46:24.570 to do? Are they going to reinvent society? 883 00:46:25.070 --> 00:46:26.679 Well, that's the plan down the road. 884 00:46:27.000 --> 00:46:27.780 Do they have that? 885 00:46:28.900 --> 00:46:33.280 Part five of the devolution plan is called reconstitution. 886 00:46:33.739 --> 00:46:34.039 Oh, Jesus. 887 00:46:34.820 --> 00:46:38.619 So they're going to reconstitute the government, like rise again 888 00:46:38.699 --> 00:46:42.480 like a phoenix from the ashes. But before that, I 889 00:46:42.539 --> 00:46:46.050 also learned the government has issued, rather the Pentagon has 890 00:46:46.090 --> 00:46:50.570 issued 1.7 million gas masks to its personnel. So they 891 00:46:50.710 --> 00:46:56.340 fan out across the states, but they can not really 892 00:46:56.460 --> 00:46:59.860 handle the numbers of people who are actually going to 893 00:46:59.900 --> 00:47:04.119 die pretty quickly. So instead, what their job is, is 894 00:47:04.179 --> 00:47:08.170 to protect the critical infrastructure. All that stuff you exactly mentioned. 895 00:47:08.750 --> 00:47:14.769 So they're just assuming that most people are going to die. Yeah. Yeah. 896 00:47:15.050 --> 00:47:16.809 I mean, this is the quote. This is the exact 897 00:47:16.869 --> 00:47:22.929 quote from Colonel Tom Earhart, who ran catastrophic nuclear and 898 00:47:22.969 --> 00:47:26.190 biological war games at the Pentagon. Four, have you ever 899 00:47:26.230 --> 00:47:29.550 heard of a very famous guy? They called him Yoda 900 00:47:29.610 --> 00:47:31.570 at the Pentagon. He died like a couple years ago 901 00:47:31.610 --> 00:47:35.070 at age 100. His name is Andy Marshall. He ran 902 00:47:35.449 --> 00:47:39.070 the Office of Net Assessment. Talk about a euphemism or 903 00:47:39.110 --> 00:47:41.639 like a cloaked. That's where they did all the war gaming. 904 00:47:42.280 --> 00:47:45.739 And Marshall, Andy Marshall did this in the 70s all 905 00:47:45.780 --> 00:47:48.559 the way through his recent death. And Tom Earhart worked 906 00:47:48.619 --> 00:47:51.400 for him. It's in the office of the Secretary of Defense. 907 00:47:51.579 --> 00:47:55.260 So what Earhart told me is in the event of 908 00:47:55.300 --> 00:48:00.199 a biological catastrophe, and by the way, that includes not 909 00:48:00.239 -->

00:48:04.380 just an attack but an incident, and an incident means 910 00:48:04.440 --> 00:48:08.039 a lab leak. So in the event of a catastrophic 911 00:48:08.260 --> 00:48:12.000 biological incident, there is very little you can do to 912 00:48:12.039 --> 00:48:18.010 protect the homeland, only things you can do to mitigate extermination. 913 00:48:19.300 --> 00:48:20.099 Of the human race? 914 00:48:20.300 --> 00:48:21.119 That's his quote. 915 00:48:21.420 --> 00:48:22.480 Mitigate extermination. 916 00:48:22.500 --> 00:48:23.920 Mitigate extermination. 917 00:48:23.940 --> 00:48:26.619 So you want to keep as many people alive as possible, 918 00:48:26.679 --> 00:48:28.750 but it's probably going to be a very small amount. 919 00:48:28.969 --> 00:48:32.309 And it's probably just going to be the 1.7 people 920 00:48:32.349 --> 00:48:35.590 with the gas mask and a whole bunch of like 921 00:48:35.769 --> 00:48:37.650 Machiavellian solipsists. 922 00:48:37.849 --> 00:48:41.829 Do you imagine if our society had to be reinvented 923 00:48:42.690 --> 00:48:45.989 with only people that work in the government? Can you 924 00:48:46.010 --> 00:48:49.280 imagine some of the most incompetent, crooked people in the 925 00:48:49.320 --> 00:48:51.639 world and that's the new society? 926 00:48:52.059 --> 00:48:54.320 Well, I have a feeling most of the bureaucrats would 927 00:48:54.340 --> 00:48:58.420 die because I don't think they could take care of themselves, right? 928 00:48:58.659 --> 00:49:00.780 I think the people that would live would be those 929 00:49:01.320 --> 00:49:03.119 well-trained soldiers. 930 00:49:03.820 --> 00:49:06.929 Well, that's not bad. That's probably a better scenario. 931 00:49:07.030 --> 00:49:09.550 But the other problem you're looking at is reproduction because 932 00:49:09.590 --> 00:49:11.750 there's 17 percent females. 933 00:49:11.369 --> 00:49:13.449 In the military. That's not good. 934 00:49:13.789 --> 00:49:16.429 That's not good. And then the other problem is that 935 00:49:16.449 --> 00:49:18.739 the other people who are left that are not in 936 00:49:18.760 --> 00:49:23.170 the military are, imagine the skills you have to have 937 00:49:23.869 --> 00:49:26.750 to be able to like deal with fear of infection 938 00:49:27.840 --> 00:49:29.949 in a manner that you basically have to be able to, 939 00:49:30.050 --> 00:49:31.820 as it was said to me, kill people on site, 940 00:49:32.070 --> 00:49:34.519 like not even worrying about whether, this is where it 941 00:49:34.719 --> 00:49:42.909 really feels like the walking dead or, you know, an apocalyptic, movie. 942 00:49:41.570 --> 00:49:44.250 28 days later was based on that put 28 days 943 00:49:44.289 --> 00:49:44.849 later was. 944 00:49:44.780 --> 00:49:47.539 A lab leak yes yes remember it. 945 00:49:47.519 --> 00:49:49.840 Was called rage it was something they were doing with 946 00:49:49.880 --> 00:49:52.360 chimpanzees and chimpanzee bite somebody. 947 00:49:52.239 --> 00:49:54.780 That's how it opens it spreads those are great films 948 00:49:55.900 --> 00:49:56.920 those are great did you see. 949 00:49:56.820 --> 00:49:58.219 The new one no i haven't seen any. 950 00:49:58.519 --> 00:50:03.019 Oh the new one parts one and two i. 951 00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:05.940 Mean there's parts one and two yeah yeah oh it's 952 00:50:06.019 --> 00:50:07.000 a two-parter. 953 00:50:06.559 --> 00:50:12.139 Two-parter they they released them like six months apart They're incredible. 954 00:50:12.199 --> 00:50:15.440 I just get worn out from those kind of movies. 955 00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:21.659 I mean, it's a certain... There's no happy ending. I mean, Joe, 956 00:50:21.760 --> 00:50:23.219 I'm an eternal optimist. 957 00:50:23.239 --> 00:50:23.880 Are you really? 958 00:50:24.079 --> 00:50:24.619 I really am. 959 00:50:24.619 --> 00:50:26.500 That's crazy, considering your work. 960 00:50:26.900 --> 00:50:29.780 But I just figure all of this is a cautionary tale. 961 00:50:29.840 --> 00:50:31.619 And I also figure it's better to know than to 962 00:50:31.639 --> 00:50:32.139 be caught off guard. 963 00:50:32.159 --> 00:50:33.559 Well, it's better to inform. And I think you do 964 00:50:33.599 --> 00:50:35.179 an amazing job of that. And I think you're a 965 00:50:35.179 --> 00:50:38.619 very important person in that regard. you inform people of 966 00:50:38.659 --> 00:50:41.480 these things that you really should be considering. I mean, 967 00:50:41.639 --> 00:50:44.619 your nuclear war book freaked a lot of people out, 968 00:50:45.050 --> 00:50:47.329 that we're kind of, you know, nuclear war was in 969 00:50:47.369 --> 00:50:49.789 the back of their mind. You know, yeah, it's a possibility, 970 00:50:49.809 --> 00:50:52.369 but hey, we haven't done it. We dropped a couple 971 00:50:52.389 --> 00:50:54.650 of bombs during the World War II, and that's it. 972 00:50:54.809 --> 00:50:55.510 We're done with that. 973 00:50:56.269 --> 00:50:58.920 You know, you said something to me last time we 974 00:50:58.960 --> 00:51:02.280 spoke about the nuclear war book that really stayed with me, 975 00:51:02.619 --> 00:51:06.769 and it has an interesting coda. So- You were like, Annie, 976 00:51:06.809 --> 00:51:09.190 I couldn't read Nuclear War. It freaked out a lot 977 00:51:09.210 --> 00:51:10.989 of my friends. I can't read it. And then you 978 00:51:11.030 --> 00:51:13.849 explained why. And you said, I'm paraphrasing you, but you said, 979 00:51:15.030 --> 00:51:18.610 I think about those people at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and 980 00:51:18.639 --> 00:51:23.460 they were just going about their daily life. And all 981 00:51:23.500 --> 00:51:29.579 of a sudden, they're incinerated. And that really stayed with me. 982 00:51:30.139 --> 00:51:35.309 And I thought about it. Here's the coda. The survivors 983 00:51:35.630 --> 00:51:39.119 are called Habaksha. That's what they call themselves. It's like 984 00:51:39.320

--> 00:51:42.619 survivors of the nuclear bomb. So now, since it was 985 00:51:42.619 --> 00:51:46.940 80 years ago, they're all like 81 to 90 plus. 986 00:51:48.500 --> 00:51:53.909 And they were stigmatized throughout their youth because the idea 987 00:51:53.989 --> 00:51:57.570 was you're radioactive. You can't reproduce. You're sort of, you know, 988 00:51:58.409 --> 00:52:01.929 there's like a malignant thing attached to you. This is 989 00:52:01.969 --> 00:52:03.510 what they told me. And I met them and they 990 00:52:04.510 --> 00:52:07.980 I was invited to Hiroshima to be the keynote speaker 991 00:52:08.099 --> 00:52:12.019 with the hibakusha for the 80th anniversary of the bombing. 992 00:52:13.480 --> 00:52:16.280 What did they say the experience was like in terms 993 00:52:16.300 --> 00:52:18.849 of being maligned? What was happening to them? 994 00:52:20.050 --> 00:52:23.769 Well, the sense I got was very much that they 995 00:52:23.829 --> 00:52:28.880 believed that was accurate. They had no other information. They 996 00:52:28.940 --> 00:52:33.130 had no other information other than, people telling them you 997 00:52:33.369 --> 00:52:36.869 know they were radioactive yeah now what was also interesting 998 00:52:36.989 --> 00:52:40.380 is a couple of the younger people who were who 999 00:52:40.429 --> 00:52:47.019 don't remember who were like infants their mothers like let's 1000 00:52:47.039 --> 00:52:49.960 say one parent died and another so they're one of 1001 00:52:49.980 --> 00:52:54.400 the living parent would shield them from that by never 1002 00:52:54.579 --> 00:52:59.019 telling them that they were hibakusha so then they had 1003 00:52:59.059 --> 00:53:02.599 this whole other kind of realization later in life when 1004 00:53:02.619 --> 00:53:05.900 they learned and some of i mean those stories were 1005 00:53:05.920 --> 00:53:09.820 like incredible because you're learning about how like a parent's 1006 00:53:09.900 --> 00:53:14.239 love for a child means not telling them what you 1007 00:53:14.300 --> 00:53:18.969 think would make them feel stigmatized but yet you've them 1008 00:53:19.110 --> 00:53:22.329 explaining to me that they felt that stigma throughout their 1009 00:53:22.389 --> 00:53:26.429 life anyways not knowing why i never even would. 1010 00:53:26.329 --> 00:53:31.090 Have considered that stigma I would have considered survivor's guilt, 1011 00:53:31.210 --> 00:53:33.650 which people do have. If you're a part of a 1012 00:53:33.690 --> 00:53:36.849 disaster and you're one of the ones that live, people 1013 00:53:36.889 --> 00:53:38.690 get survivor's guilt. But I never would have thought of 1014 00:53:39.369 --> 00:53:44.070 the stigma of being maligned as an infected, radioactive person. 1015 00:53:44.750 --> 00:53:47.030 And Japan has such a different culture. I couldn't have 1016 00:53:47.090 --> 00:53:51.630 imagined that either until I heard it firsthand from the 1017 00:53:51.690 --> 00:53:55.710 experience of the survivors. They sent some of them to 1018 00:53:55.730 --> 00:54:01.199 an island. Like banished as if you're a leper. 1019 00:54:04.389 --> 00:54:06.550 How much is this Iran thing freaking you out? 1020 00:54:07.250 --> 00:54:07.630 The war? 1021 00:54:07.809 --> 00:54:08.190 Yeah. 1022 00:54:09.849 --> 00:54:14.579 Look, I mean, when anyone starts a war, that's not necessary. 1023 00:54:15.519 --> 00:54:17.300 That's the wrong word for it. But, you know, just 1024 00:54:17.420 --> 00:54:21.659 like this is the whole, it's just a terrible, terrible, 1025 00:54:21.699 --> 00:54:24.909 terrible idea. It just seems to me like the opposite 1026 00:54:25.050 --> 00:54:28.920 of what the Department of Defense, it's why I continue 1027 00:54:28.960 --> 00:54:30.619 to call it the Department of Defense, by the way, 1028 00:54:31.119 --> 00:54:33.539 because it still is in my mind and certainly until 1029 00:54:33.619 --> 00:54:38.610 Congress changes the name. You know, it's supposed to be 1030 00:54:38.650 --> 00:54:39.230 for defense. 1031 00:54:39.949 --> 00:54:40.230 Right. 1032 00:54:40.389 --> 00:54:45.429 So I think so much of what I have written about, 1033 00:54:45.530 --> 00:54:49.420 all the wars since World War II, I've interviewed 100 1034 00:54:49.420 --> 00:54:51.820 or more people for each of my eight books who 1035 00:54:51.880 --> 00:54:55.260 have been in every war. And the big shift for 1036 00:54:55.320 --> 00:55:03.380 me like understanding a change in mindset was the Bush-Cheney 1037 00:55:03.400 --> 00:55:08.960 administration starting the Iraq War. Like I really believe that 1038 00:55:09.019 --> 00:55:12.159 many of the problems we're experiencing today as a society 1039 00:55:12.599 --> 00:55:15.159 stem from that. And that has to do with the 1040 00:55:15.199 --> 00:55:21.099 fact of all the soldiers that I've interviewed, there's a 1041 00:55:21.639 --> 00:55:25.719 completely different perspective on the government from those who fought 1042 00:55:26.480 --> 00:55:29.860 in the wars leading up to the war on terror. 1043 00:55:31.539 --> 00:55:34.820 And the people who, most of them, you know many 1044 00:55:34.840 --> 00:55:39.539 of these people too, like they're mad. They're really mad 1045 00:55:39.599 --> 00:55:42.519 that they were used. That's a sense that I get. Now, 1046 00:55:42.719 --> 00:55:48.159 not everyone, but a majority are very angry and feel used. 1047 00:55:48.260 --> 00:55:53.719 And that is a fundamental warping of what the military is. 1048 00:55:55.039 --> 00:56:00.400 Yeah. Without a doubt. And also, no clear way to 1049 00:56:00.460 --> 00:56:02.059 resolve this at all. 1050 00:56:02.760 --> 00:56:03.059 Yes. 1051 00:56:03.639 --> 00:56:08.480 And it seems like our stockpiles are running dry. You know, 1052 00:56:09.860 --> 00:56:11.719 bases are getting blown up by drones. 1053 00:56:13.260 --> 00:56:17.269 I heard, you know, I heard Joe Kent, who was 1054 00:56:17.489 -->

00:56:20.929 the number two at ODNI who resigned, I heard him 1055 00:56:20.969 --> 00:56:26.570 say a really interesting thing about the warrior class. that 1056 00:56:26.670 --> 00:56:28.849 I hadn't, you know when you just like have all 1057 00:56:28.889 --> 00:56:31.250 this information but you didn't put something together and then 1058 00:56:31.289 --> 00:56:34.179 you hear it and you're like, of course. And what 1059 00:56:34.280 --> 00:56:36.980 Joe said was one of, this was in reference to 1060 00:56:37.559 --> 00:56:39.739 Trump maybe saying there was going to be, or someone 1061 00:56:39.920 --> 00:56:43.219 in this administration saying there should be a draft. And 1062 00:56:43.340 --> 00:56:46.260 everyone freaking out and saying like that's, you know, that's outrageous. 1063 00:56:46.739 --> 00:56:49.880 And Joe Kent's point was really interesting. He said, there 1064 00:56:49.940 --> 00:56:52.380 should be a draft but not for reasons you think. 1065 00:56:53.550 --> 00:57:00.250 And he said, Presently, America has a warrior class and 1066 00:57:00.590 --> 00:57:03.510 Joe Kent is in it. Meaning, you know, these are like, 1067 00:57:05.050 --> 00:57:08.730 don't have the exact statistic, 1%, less than 1% of 1068 00:57:09.170 --> 00:57:14.369 families who are in the military. And he said, Kent said, 1069 00:57:14.730 --> 00:57:17.670 you know, we socialize with one another. Our kids socialize 1070 00:57:17.690 --> 00:57:19.679 with one another. We go to school with one another. 1071 00:57:19.719 --> 00:57:22.139 We go to war with one another. We talk together. 1072 00:57:22.179 --> 00:57:27.230 We have parties together. And we know something about America 1073 00:57:27.710 --> 00:57:32.320 that is completely foreign to all the other families. And 1074 00:57:32.610 --> 00:57:35.599 there's something wrong with that. And I've really thought about 1075 00:57:35.639 --> 00:57:38.320 that a lot since, and I agree with him. And 1076 00:57:38.340 --> 00:57:44.320 his point about the draft was if everybody knew and 1077 00:57:45.219 --> 00:57:49.880 experienced what we experience in our families, talking about war 1078 00:57:49.980 --> 00:57:54.159 versus peace— Wars would be looked at differently. 1079 00:57:55.760 --> 00:57:59.079 Instead of thinking we should go to war like a 1080 00:57:59.159 --> 00:58:02.579 Lindsey Graham type perspective, whereas no real skin in the game. 1081 00:58:02.639 --> 00:58:04.429 He's not going to go get shot. No one he 1082 00:58:04.469 --> 00:58:09.670 knows is going to go get shot. Yeah, absolutely. Makes sense. 1083 00:58:09.809 --> 00:58:12.630 So that's kind of my answer to, you know, and 1084 00:58:12.849 --> 00:58:15.010 I like I'll see a headline that's like the war 1085 00:58:15.050 --> 00:58:17.780 in Iran costs us X, Y, Z billion dollars. And 1086 00:58:17.800 --> 00:58:20.199 it's like it doesn't even mention all the people dying, 1087 00:58:20.280 --> 00:58:23.730 you know. There's like 10...

And yes, the Americans. But like, 1088 00:58:24.909 --> 00:58:28.090 it's just... Talk about misreporting. 1089 00:58:29.889 --> 00:58:32.280 Right, it's just talking about money. Which is crazy. 1090 00:58:32.360 --> 00:58:34.559 Which is crazy. Which is crazy. 1091 00:58:35.920 --> 00:58:38.380 And then it also... The real problem is it makes 1092 00:58:38.679 --> 00:58:42.860 America an enemy. And it makes us less safe. Because 1093 00:58:43.239 --> 00:58:47.000 America has done this thing, this unprovoked attack. And so 1094 00:58:47.059 --> 00:58:49.199 now they have a reason to attack back. 1095 00:58:50.070 --> 00:58:54.010 It's... It's very like slippery. You know, it's like untrustworthy. 1096 00:58:54.239 --> 00:58:56.570 I mean, I always go back to like the way 1097 00:58:56.610 --> 00:59:00.210 you behave with your family is the way that you 1098 00:59:00.250 --> 00:59:05.130 should present the world. Otherwise, you're being a hypocrite. And 1099 00:59:05.750 --> 00:59:08.429 the idea that we're we as a country are kind 1100 00:59:08.449 --> 00:59:10.949 of like you're not really sure what we're up to. 1101 00:59:12.010 --> 00:59:16.380 And then it's changing. It's like radically changing. The pendulum 1102 00:59:16.440 --> 00:59:23.400 swings so far from what one administration's, you know, list 1103 00:59:23.460 --> 00:59:27.119 of really important things is to another. I mean, it 1104 00:59:27.219 --> 00:59:32.650 must be From an outside perspective, it must be really 1105 00:59:32.710 --> 00:59:33.750 schizophrenic looking. 1106 00:59:35.090 --> 00:59:42.230 Yeah. So to get back to your book, how many 1107 00:59:42.750 --> 00:59:47.650 different countries do we know are involved in this kind 1108 00:59:47.690 --> 00:59:49.889 of biological war research? 1109 00:59:51.559 --> 00:59:57.079 So for starters, biological war is illegal. biological weapons are illegal, 1110 00:59:57.300 --> 01:00:00.820 unlike nuclear weapons, believe it or not, are perfectly legal 1111 01:00:01.199 --> 01:00:03.840 for the countries that have them. Wrap your head around that. 1112 01:00:03.960 --> 01:00:09.079 But everybody signed a treaty in 1972 called the Biological 1113 01:00:09.119 --> 01:00:13.780 Weapons Convention Treaty, saying we will not make biological weapons. 1114 01:00:13.820 --> 01:00:18.300 They are odious to the conscience of mankind. At that point, 1115 01:00:18.420 --> 01:00:21.960 the Soviets signed the treaty, crossed their fingers behind their back, 1116 01:00:22.840 --> 01:00:28.659 and made a ginormous biological weapons program that you talked 1117 01:00:28.699 --> 01:00:35.679 about earlier, okay? America allegedly destroyed her arsenal of biological weapons, 1118 01:00:36.500 --> 01:00:42.099 which took 219 weeks to destroy, by the way. And 1119 01:00:42.139 --> 01:00:45.940 not for another 20 years did we learn that actually 1120 01:00:46.000 --> 01:00:49.119 the Soviets were running this biological weapons program, and we 1121 01:00:49.179 --> 01:00:52.329 only learned it because of the Soviet defectors. The CIA 1122 01:00:52.369 --> 01:00:54.340 had no idea. Defense Department had no idea. 1123 01:00:54.420 --> 01:00:57.719 So we had completely stopped all of that work? 1124 01:00:58.300 --> 01:01:02.719 According to the documents, according to anyone you interview, we 1125 01:01:02.760 --> 01:01:04.329 had stopped biological weapons work. 1126 01:01:04.349 --> 01:01:05.269 What year was this, Hall? 1127 01:01:05.909 --> 01:01:10.309 Nixon made a declaration in 1969. Like, we're just giving 1128 01:01:10.369 --> 01:01:13.150 up our biological weapons program. And then everyone else followed suit, 1129 01:01:13.170 --> 01:01:16.300 and the treaty came about in 1972. 1130 01:01:16.300 --> 01:01:17.699 But the Soviets continued their work. 1131 01:01:17.900 --> 01:01:21.039 The Soviets not only continued, they just, like, they, like, 1132 01:01:21.449 --> 01:01:24.030 went bang on it. And they later called it their 1133 01:01:24.090 --> 01:01:25.050 Manhattan Project. 1134 01:01:27.489 --> 01:01:30.820 And weren't there bioweapons labs in Ukraine? 1135 01:01:32.039 --> 01:01:33.039 You're talking about recently? 1136 01:01:33.119 --> 01:01:35.719 Yeah. That the United States was involved in? 1137 01:01:35.940 --> 01:01:39.760 What there are, there are biosafety labs. 1138 01:01:39.820 --> 01:01:40.019 Okay. 1139 01:01:40.039 --> 01:01:42.039 So your original question was, where are they around the world? 1140 01:01:42.820 --> 01:01:46.119 So they're illegal. But what isn't illegal, because this is 1141 01:01:46.159 --> 01:01:50.099 a carve out in the treaty, You can do research 1142 01:01:50.179 --> 01:01:56.389 for prophylactic purposes, for medical countermeasures. That's the carve-out. So 1143 01:01:56.469 --> 01:02:00.469 that's where we've gotten to gain a function, you see. Like, oh, 1144 01:02:00.530 --> 01:02:02.849 we're just doing this for prophylactic purposes. 1145 01:02:02.909 --> 01:02:05.070 That's how the DOD gets involved. Okay. 1146 01:02:05.769 --> 01:02:11.150 So before 9-11, 9-11 factors into this, and so does 1147 01:02:11.170 --> 01:02:16.969 Dick Cheney. Because before 9-11, America had two BSL-4 labs, bio... 1148 01:02:17.230 --> 01:02:20.460 safety level four. That's the highest level. That's like you 1149 01:02:20.519 --> 01:02:24.539 saw the suits, the tubes, your arms are in the boxes. 1150 01:02:24.960 --> 01:02:28.440 You're taking a chemical shower before you go in. America 1151 01:02:28.480 --> 01:02:31.340 had two, one at Fort Detrick. That's the DOD's lab. 1152 01:02:32.090 --> 01:02:35.489 One at the CDC in Atlanta. That's the civilian lab. 1153 01:02:35.510 --> 01:02:41.170 9-11 happens. Remember the anthrax attacks? Never solved. Thank you, FBI. 1154 01:02:42.409 --> 01:02:48.349 Dick Cheney personally is terrified of bioweapons. And He spearheads 1155 01:02:48.429 --> 01:02:55.289 the efforts for this giant biological military

industrial complex that 1156 01:02:55.389 --> 01:02:58.960 then takes off and begins with billions of dollars pumped 1157 01:02:59.039 --> 01:03:03.800 into gain-of-function type research. And America goes from having two 1158 01:03:03.840 --> 01:03:09.139 BSL labs to having 15. And the world follows suit. 1159 01:03:10.099 --> 01:03:16.550 So there are 110 BSL-4 labs around the world. including 1160 01:03:16.590 --> 01:03:17.769 in countries that are at war. 1161 01:03:18.150 --> 01:03:19.849 And this is all post-Bush administration? 1162 01:03:20.489 --> 01:03:23.590 Post-Bush administration. That is when it took off. That is 1163 01:03:23.630 --> 01:03:24.269 when it took off. 1164 01:03:24.800 --> 01:03:25.300 Wow. 1165 01:03:26.159 --> 01:03:31.340 So America has a hand in the blossoming of this problem, 1166 01:03:31.539 --> 01:03:35.019 most certainly. And then when you find out that, so 1167 01:03:35.099 --> 01:03:38.510 you think BSL-4, okay, well, BSL-3, that just must be like, 1168 01:03:38.530 --> 01:03:43.250 you know, chickenpox. No. In the BSL-3 labs, you can 1169 01:03:43.309 --> 01:03:51.429 work with plague, anthrax, like serious diseases that allegedly have cures. 1170 01:03:52.849 --> 01:03:55.449 And so you know how many BSL-3 labs there are 1171 01:03:55.469 --> 01:03:59.550 in the United States of America right now? How many? 1172 01:03:59.550 --> 01:04:00.760 1,500. 1173 01:04:00.760 --> 01:04:06.500 1,500. And around the world, there are 3,500. 90% of 1174 01:04:08.320 --> 01:04:10.619 them have no guidelines for safety. 1175 01:04:10.860 --> 01:04:13.260 Did you hear about the story where there was a 1176 01:04:13.340 --> 01:04:17.809 man in Vegas... That had a bio lab in his garage? 1177 01:04:18.769 --> 01:04:19.269 Yes. 1178 01:04:19.809 --> 01:04:21.929 In California? Both, both, both. Another one? 1179 01:04:21.969 --> 01:04:23.829 They were both, and they were seemingly linked. 1180 01:04:24.630 --> 01:04:29.690 Oh, boy. Possibly tied to California case federal Chinese investigation. 1181 01:04:30.159 --> 01:04:31.409 Yeah, wait till I show you what's at the bottom. 1182 01:04:31.940 --> 01:04:33.800 Oh, boy, Jamie, why are you doing this to me? 1183 01:04:36.519 --> 01:04:36.760 Oof. 1184 01:04:38.260 --> 01:04:41.820 No case appeared filed in state federal court as of Sunday. 1185 01:04:43.789 --> 01:04:45.150 And I didn't really see a follow-up. 1186 01:04:45.269 --> 01:04:47.610 I haven't seen the dead mice. Jamie, what's with the 1187 01:04:47.710 --> 01:04:48.150 dead mice there? 1188 01:04:48.289 --> 01:04:51.860 There's a thousand dead mice. There's vials including HIV, malaria. 1189 01:04:52.539 --> 01:04:55.800 Well, the crazy thing is the guy who they caught, 1190 01:04:56.679 --> 01:04:59.960 they didn't arrest him. Like there was an Israeli guy. 1191 01:05:00.880 --> 01:05:03.980 So this says Chinese investigation, but one of them was 1192 01:05:04.000 --> 01:05:06.960 a guy who was an Israeli guy who

they caught 1193 01:05:07.460 --> 01:05:11.519 and they sent him away. They didn't prosecute him. He 1194 01:05:11.539 --> 01:05:11.920 took off. 1195 01:05:14.269 --> 01:05:18.300 I mean, this stuff is so thinly reported and it's 1196 01:05:18.510 --> 01:05:24.420 always got like a giant sensationalist clickbait type headline. And 1197 01:05:24.460 --> 01:05:26.699 people read about it and know about it a little bit. 1198 01:05:27.179 --> 01:05:31.340 And then the real reality behind it, I think, gets 1199 01:05:31.420 --> 01:05:34.900 completely lost, which is that the bottom line is that 1200 01:05:34.940 --> 01:05:40.179 the barrier to entry in the biological weapons field is 1201 01:05:40.420 --> 01:05:46.889 so incredibly low. It's horrifying. Think about what you need 1202 01:05:46.909 --> 01:05:47.829 to have a nuclear weapon. 1203 01:05:49.090 --> 01:05:49.449 A lot. 1204 01:05:49.909 --> 01:05:51.929 I mean, look at Iran right now. You have to 1205 01:05:51.989 --> 01:05:55.289 have enriched uranium or plutonium. You have to have fissile material. 1206 01:05:55.510 --> 01:05:58.230 Then you have to have a weapon system. You have 1207 01:05:58.250 --> 01:06:01.380 to have an ICBM or a submarine or a B-2 bomber. 1208 01:06:02.659 --> 01:06:06.880 Nuclear weapons are tightly controlled by a nation's command and 1209 01:06:06.920 --> 01:06:11.159 control structure. All subject matter experts I interviewed for this 1210 01:06:11.199 --> 01:06:17.150 book expressed their serious concern that the barrier for entry 1211 01:06:17.230 --> 01:06:23.489 is so low that basically given computational systems, AI-enabled bio, 1212 01:06:24.570 --> 01:06:27.829 basically a high school student with limited knowledge of biology 1213 01:06:27.849 --> 01:06:31.219 can make a bioweapon in their basement or in the 1214 01:06:31.260 --> 01:06:32.380 Vegas apartment building. 1215 01:06:32.719 --> 01:06:37.159 Well, this guy had it in his garage and they 1216 01:06:37.179 --> 01:06:37.579 caught him. 1217 01:06:38.179 --> 01:06:39.340 And what was he doing? Do we know? 1218 01:06:39.599 --> 01:06:43.099 I don't know. They referenced it as a storage facility. 1219 01:06:43.599 --> 01:06:46.860 And they said it was a storage facility. Yeah, it 1220 01:06:47.119 --> 01:06:49.929 said not a laboratory, adding that the samples and equipment 1221 01:06:49.949 --> 01:06:53.150 suggested no active work was happening there. But it says, 1222 01:06:53.309 --> 01:06:56.010 I think the question is, why does somebody have these 1223 01:06:56.090 --> 01:06:59.389 materials in a private residence? It's not a doctor, not 1224 01:06:59.429 --> 01:07:02.519 a lab, not a licensed medical facility of any sort. 1225 01:07:03.260 --> 01:07:04.280 This guy. 1226 01:07:05.119 --> 01:07:06.940 And it's a great question. And I wonder what the 1227 01:07:07.019 --> 01:07:07.449 answer is. 1228 01:07:08.269 --> 01:07:11.449 I also think it was like an Airbnb or something. 1229 01:07:11.489 --> 01:07:14.869 That's kind of like the, it gets lost in the 1230 01:07:14.929 --> 01:07:15.860 LLC who owned it. 1231 01:07:15.869 --> 01:07:16.730 They said the guy who was. 1232 01:07:16.670 --> 01:07:19.150 Running it doesn't own it. 1233 01:07:19.150 --> 01:07:22.579 1,200 samples. Oh, God. And what was he doing? 1234 01:07:22.599 --> 01:07:24.880 What was he doing and why? I don't know, but. 1235 01:07:24.739 --> 01:07:28.719 I think they've released him. That's what's crazy. The guy 1236 01:07:28.760 --> 01:07:30.599 in Vegas was released. Is that correct? 1237 01:07:30.699 --> 01:07:32.239 That's what I was trying to say. When I Googled that, 1238 01:07:32.639 --> 01:07:36.039 I didn't really see a follow-up on anything updated or new. 1239 01:07:36.769 --> 01:07:40.909 I'm pretty sure the guy in Vegas was an Israeli citizen, 1240 01:07:41.369 --> 01:07:43.690 and he was released. So the question is, like, what 1241 01:07:43.730 --> 01:07:47.909 was he doing? And he was caught, but that's just 1242 01:07:48.090 --> 01:07:50.889 one guy that was stupid and got caught. How many 1243 01:07:50.929 --> 01:07:55.739 people are doing that? Are there sleeper labs all across 1244 01:07:55.780 --> 01:07:56.280 the country? 1245 01:07:56.300 --> 01:08:00.139 Rory Solomon charges dropped, it says, on the property manager. 1246 01:08:00.659 --> 01:08:04.300 Whoopsies. Maybe it's because he was just a property manager. Yeah, 1247 01:08:04.380 --> 01:08:06.409 no big deal. He didn't do anything. 1248 01:08:06.429 --> 01:08:09.590 Without prejudice. Still faces criminal charge in Clark County for 1249 01:08:09.659 --> 01:08:11.739 improper disposal of hazardous waste. 1250 01:08:11.960 --> 01:08:14.760 But didn't he leave and go back to Israel? I mean, 1251 01:08:14.780 --> 01:08:16.619 this is just, I'm looking at the article now. I 1252 01:08:16.720 --> 01:08:18.960 think that was the allegation. 1253 01:08:18.979 --> 01:08:21.039 He's due back in court on June 4th, which was 1254 01:08:21.060 --> 01:08:24.010 a few months ago. Yeah, so I don't, let's see. 1255 01:08:24.029 --> 01:08:24.890 I didn't see anything about it. 1256 01:08:24.890 --> 01:08:26.750 I'll look it up. Yeah. Nothing to see here. It 1257 01:08:26.789 --> 01:08:29.329 says an Israeli citizen, right? Didn't it say that? 1258 01:08:30.020 --> 01:08:31.399 Go back to— Right, we just— A citizen on a 1259 01:08:31.439 --> 01:08:34.899 non-immigrant visa is not allowed to possess firearms. Prosecutors say 1260 01:08:34.939 --> 01:08:36.220 multiple guns were seized from his home. 1261 01:08:36.340 --> 01:08:40.590 Well, you've got to have guns if you've got plague. 1262 01:08:40.600 --> 01:08:42.010 You've got to look out for your stockpile. 1263 01:08:42.020 --> 01:08:43.199 You've got to guard your plague. 1264 01:08:43.850 --> 01:08:46.149 But, you know, I stayed away from that kind of 1265 01:08:46.250 --> 01:08:48.510 lone actor crazy because— I don't know if that's a

1266 01:08:48.529 --> 01:08:51.810 lone actor. I mean, exactly. You don't know. 1267 01:08:52.289 --> 01:08:54.130 If it was, would you think they'd let him go? 1268 01:08:55.470 --> 01:08:58.729 That's my question. If it's a lone actor, would they 1269 01:08:58.770 --> 01:09:01.289 really let him go or— is he connected to somebody? 1270 01:09:01.609 --> 01:09:02.550 And that's how he got out. 1271 01:09:03.210 --> 01:09:06.430 I mean, one of the problems of the over-politicization of 1272 01:09:06.489 --> 01:09:11.859 everything is that it just seems like anything important becomes 1273 01:09:12.000 --> 01:09:16.060 splatter and becomes secondary to some of these other concerns 1274 01:09:16.800 --> 01:09:20.250 that seem to take headlines right like that should be 1275 01:09:20.609 --> 01:09:22.510 a big story and yet all any of us ever 1276 01:09:22.550 --> 01:09:26.130 heard was did you hear about the crazy bio lab 1277 01:09:26.430 --> 01:09:32.069 right i can tell you that the bigger story is 1278 01:09:32.149 --> 01:09:36.039 really at least to my eye you know because this 1279 01:09:36.100 --> 01:09:38.899 is another one oh thank god nothing got out thank 1280 01:09:38.939 --> 01:09:42.800 god no one was infected but the real issue is 1281 01:09:42.859 --> 01:09:45.939 what happens if someone does get what happens if a 1282 01:09:45.979 --> 01:09:50.119 pathogen gets seeded in the community and an outbreak starts 1283 01:09:50.159 --> 01:09:54.479 to move to an epidemic. And, you know, I write 1284 01:09:54.500 --> 01:09:56.520 in the end of the book, Joe, the point is 1285 01:09:56.590 --> 01:09:58.689 not panic. This is, of course, after I take you 1286 01:09:58.729 --> 01:10:02.810 through like the worst dystopian nightmare ever. The point is pressure, 1287 01:10:03.630 --> 01:10:08.630 pressure to understand the threat, the labs around the world, 1288 01:10:09.229 --> 01:10:12.149 the bureaucracy involved, all the different problems that would come 1289 01:10:12.210 --> 01:10:14.939 up of mitigating the threat. so that you can be 1290 01:10:15.000 --> 01:10:18.819 informed and also say, like, wait a minute, something really 1291 01:10:18.930 --> 01:10:21.609 needs to be done and needs to be looked at here. 1292 01:10:21.649 --> 01:10:25.890 And instead, people are arguing about the most obvious thing 1293 01:10:25.909 --> 01:10:29.069 in the world, to my eye, you know, what happened 1294 01:10:29.090 --> 01:10:33.250 in the Senate yesterday. Like, that is pretty obvious, what happened, 1295 01:10:33.449 --> 01:10:37.819 what is being covered up. We were misled. And yet 1296 01:10:38.079 --> 01:10:41.029 all of this, I'm not saying to skip over it, 1297 01:10:41.260 --> 01:10:42.060 you know, but. 1298 01:10:44.010 --> 01:10:47.050 It's like how much effort do we put on something 1299 01:10:48.350 --> 01:10:51.569 without a resolution? That's what confounds me. 1300 01:10:54.210 --> 01:10:58.329 Yeah, it's a really good question. And the fact that 1301 01:10:58.350 --> 01:11:02.130 there's so many labs in this country and that they've 1302 01:11:02.270 --> 01:11:04.529 all sprung up post-2001. 1303 01:11:05.510 --> 01:11:09.930 They moved that Plum Island lab, by the way, to Kansas. 1304 01:11:11.390 --> 01:11:14.170 And it either just opened or it's about to open. 1305 01:11:14.989 --> 01:11:17.510 It costs an extraordinary amount of money. 1306 01:11:17.670 --> 01:11:19.590 And are they doing the same research? Yes. Yep. 1307 01:11:19.829 --> 01:11:21.909 They moved it off of Plum Island and now it's 1308 01:11:21.949 --> 01:11:22.229 in Kansas. 1309 01:11:22.250 --> 01:11:25.489 Do you know anything about this alpha gal tick, this 1310 01:11:25.970 --> 01:11:29.300 Lone Star tick that gives people this allergy to red meat? 1311 01:11:29.920 --> 01:11:33.119 A little bit. A little bit. In as much that 1312 01:11:33.159 --> 01:11:35.960 it's a parasite, which is different, you know, it's a bug, 1313 01:11:36.640 --> 01:11:39.180 which is different than a germ. 1314 01:11:39.199 --> 01:11:39.319 Right. 1315 01:11:40.880 --> 01:11:45.930 But I think it speaks to this idea that sort 1316 01:11:45.970 --> 01:11:49.310 of there are natural things that are happening in our environment. 1317 01:11:50.689 --> 01:11:55.729 And then there are also unnatural things and the inability 1318 01:11:55.850 --> 01:12:00.170 to differentiate between them or trust. Look, so much of 1319 01:12:00.210 --> 01:12:02.850 all this has been about trust the science. And then, OK, 1320 01:12:02.869 --> 01:12:07.989 we can't trust the science, unfortunately, around COVID. And we're 1321 01:12:08.010 --> 01:12:11.430 all waiting for a reckoning around COVID. It's obviously not 1322 01:12:11.489 --> 01:12:15.930 coming anytime soon. And in the meantime, you have, you know, 1323 01:12:16.010 --> 01:12:18.430 the lettuce outbreak. You have the alpha gall. You have 1324 01:12:18.510 --> 01:12:24.470 Legionnaire's disease from data centers. There's an influx of health 1325 01:12:24.569 --> 01:12:30.090 concerns coming from Mother Nature herself. Here we are in 1326 01:12:30.130 --> 01:12:34.210 this world of incredible science and technology. I mean, I 1327 01:12:34.229 --> 01:12:37.170 talk to biotechnologists who, by the way, really have a 1328 01:12:37.329 --> 01:12:40.460 utopian take on this. Now, there is lots of money 1329 01:12:40.500 --> 01:12:44.899 involved for them. But they really believe that science is 1330 01:12:44.939 --> 01:12:47.500 the answer and can be the answer to a lot 1331 01:12:47.720 --> 01:12:51.520 of these problems. I sat next to a guy at 1332 01:12:51.560 --> 01:12:54.779 dinner a couple nights ago who told me that his 1333 01:12:54.859 --> 01:12:59.270 company in San Diego has a countermeasure for alpha-gal. I 1334 01:12:59.310 --> 01:13:01.750 have no idea of verifying this. This just happened. But 1335 01:13:01.789 --> 01:13:03.369 that the reason they can't get it through is

because 1336 01:13:03.409 --> 01:13:03.970 of insurance. 1337 01:13:04.130 --> 01:13:05.789 You know, one of the treatments that's supposed to be 1338 01:13:05.829 --> 01:13:09.069 very effective is acupuncture. On your ears. 1339 01:13:09.630 --> 01:13:10.470 On your ears. 1340 01:13:10.649 --> 01:13:12.909 Yeah. See if you can find anything on that. I 1341 01:13:13.029 --> 01:13:18.029 read about this, that there's like a 90% remission that 1342 01:13:18.789 --> 01:13:23.310 one guy's been able to achieve through acupuncture on your ears. 1343 01:13:23.829 --> 01:13:28.100 Which is like, what do you, what? Like, hey, whatever works, 1344 01:13:28.180 --> 01:13:33.579 but is this real? Acupuncture, specifically a specialized ear technique 1345 01:13:34.100 --> 01:13:41.520 called Saliman Aric, Auricular allergy treatment is being explored by 1346 01:13:41.680 --> 01:13:45.500 integrative practitioners to help manage and potentially achieve remission for 1347 01:13:45.600 --> 01:13:50.210 alpha-gal syndrome, though it's not yet a standard medically proven cure. 1348 01:13:51.109 --> 01:13:55.130 How it works for alpha-gal. Targeted ear points. Provider locates 1349 01:13:55.189 --> 01:13:59.119 a specific highly reactive electrical point on the outer ear 1350 01:13:59.140 --> 01:14:04.300 associated with the alpha-gal immune response. Acupuncture is so weird 1351 01:14:04.340 --> 01:14:06.380 because it seems to be doing something. 1352 01:14:06.420 --> 01:14:07.279 Do you have acupuncture? 1353 01:14:07.680 --> 01:14:09.199 No. I had it done once but the guy was 1354 01:14:09.239 --> 01:14:10.439 a kook and I never went back. 1355 01:14:11.439 --> 01:14:16.090 I feel like acupuncture is so old and comes from 1356 01:14:16.329 --> 01:14:22.210 such a long history of experiences. I have acupuncture and 1357 01:14:22.270 --> 01:14:25.439 it just seems like anytime I go for anything, someone 1358 01:14:25.449 --> 01:14:27.520 wants to give me drugs, which I'm not a fan of, 1359 01:14:27.720 --> 01:14:31.260 I go to the acupuncturist. Sure, call it the placebo 1360 01:14:31.300 --> 01:14:34.239 effect or call it whatever you want, but it certainly 1361 01:14:34.279 --> 01:14:34.800 works for me. 1362 01:14:34.819 --> 01:14:37.699 I don't necessarily think it's a placebo. I think a 1363 01:14:37.760 --> 01:14:40.560 lot of that really old stuff we like to dismiss 1364 01:14:40.640 --> 01:14:44.020 because we like petroleum-based pharmaceutical drugs because that's what the 1365 01:14:44.060 --> 01:14:47.159 doctor gives us as standard of care. I have a 1366 01:14:47.180 --> 01:14:49.779 feeling there's a lot of real... It's been around too 1367 01:14:49.850 --> 01:14:51.979 long for them to just keep faking it. 1368 01:14:52.659 --> 01:14:54.229 I mean, if it works, it works. 1369 01:14:54.369 --> 01:14:59.310 Yeah. Well, if it turns out that this ear technique 1370 01:14:59.470 --> 01:15:04.060 actually puts alpha-gal in remission, maybe people will

take that 1371 01:15:04.319 --> 01:15:09.000 stuff more seriously and start using acupuncture for other... Because 1372 01:15:09.039 --> 01:15:10.699 I know a lot of people swear by it. And 1373 01:15:11.090 --> 01:15:13.399 I'm always... I just kind of raise my eyebrow like, 1374 01:15:13.430 --> 01:15:17.090 all right, good luck. But maybe that's just me being ignorant. 1375 01:15:17.130 --> 01:15:20.970 And definitely that's me being ignorant. A specialized ear acupuncture 1376 01:15:21.149 --> 01:15:26.470 method called the Solomon Auricular Allergy Treatment shows a high 1377 01:15:26.529 --> 01:15:28.649 reported success rate of about 85% to 96% for putting 1378 01:15:28.710 --> 01:15:37.819 alpha-gal syndrome... symptoms into remission. That's pretty crazy. Yeah. I mean, 1379 01:15:37.890 --> 01:15:41.859 I don't know who did the study. I like it. 1380 01:15:42.010 --> 01:15:44.130 I like that that's out there because I always feel 1381 01:15:44.170 --> 01:15:47.930 like the acupuncturists are sidelined because they're not part of 1382 01:15:48.010 --> 01:15:52.310 the medical insurance military industrial complex. 1383 01:15:52.329 --> 01:15:54.210 The small needle stays in your ear for three to 1384 01:15:54.270 --> 01:15:54.770 four weeks. 1385 01:15:55.069 --> 01:15:55.569 Oh, wow. 1386 01:15:55.590 --> 01:15:58.090 It's not just like a treatment. It's secured with a 1387 01:15:58.170 --> 01:16:09.439 small adhesive bandage. Tiny little needle. Hair thin. Stainless steel needle. Huh. 1388 01:16:09.439 --> 01:16:10.619 137 patient trial, it looks like. 1389 01:16:10.640 --> 01:16:13.079 I wonder how, who fucking figured that out? 1390 01:16:13.300 --> 01:16:15.399 Do you know anyone who's gotten alpha goals? 1391 01:16:15.760 --> 01:16:16.739 Yes, a good friend of mine. 1392 01:16:16.899 --> 01:16:17.159 Wow. 1393 01:16:17.189 --> 01:16:17.750 Yeah, he has it. 1394 01:16:17.810 --> 01:16:21.090 And what, he's become deathly allergic? 1395 01:16:21.270 --> 01:16:21.569 Oh, yeah. 1396 01:16:21.729 --> 01:16:22.770 Or deeply allergic? 1397 01:16:23.329 --> 01:16:25.430 Well, I mean, it doesn't kill him, but it wrecks him. 1398 01:16:25.729 --> 01:16:29.460 And so he got over it. and started eating meat again, 1399 01:16:29.539 --> 01:16:31.359 and then it came back with a vengeance. It came 1400 01:16:31.399 --> 01:16:33.689 back even worse than it was before. So it went 1401 01:16:33.729 --> 01:16:36.189 into remission, and then it came back. And, you know, 1402 01:16:36.229 --> 01:16:39.869 he's really, like, tightened up his diet and done everything. 1403 01:16:40.189 --> 01:16:42.869 One thing that really helped him was plasmapheresis. Do you 1404 01:16:42.890 --> 01:16:47.300 know what that is? It's they take your blood, and 1405 01:16:47.319 --> 01:16:50.800 they filter out the plasma and replace it. Yeah, I 1406 01:16:50.840 --> 01:16:53.119 had it done. I had it done for fun just 1407 01:16:53.140 --> 01:16:55.479 to see what it feels like. Um, and you get 1408 01:16:55.520 --> 01:16:57.470 really tired the next day. That's one thing. But then 1409 01:16:57.510 --> 01:16:59.529 the day after that, oh my God, you feel amazing. 1410 01:16:59.590 --> 01:17:02.909 You feel like, like you've just lost 20 years of age. 1411 01:17:03.350 --> 01:17:05.229 Like it really feels incredible. You have so much energy. 1412 01:17:05.569 --> 01:17:08.350 It's really odd. Whatever it is, it's doing something. But 1413 01:17:08.390 --> 01:17:11.300 people that have autoimmune issues, people that have allergies, people 1414 01:17:11.310 --> 01:17:13.739 that have a lot of different weird things, apparently they 1415 01:17:13.779 --> 01:17:17.840 have some, uh, great responses from that. But my friend, uh, 1416 01:17:17.880 --> 01:17:19.779 you know, he struggled with a bunch of different things 1417 01:17:19.920 --> 01:17:22.670 and getting his blood work and lab work done. He 1418 01:17:22.689 --> 01:17:25.329 was also in the military and spent a lot of 1419 01:17:25.369 --> 01:17:27.649 time overseas. And one of the things that he found 1420 01:17:27.729 --> 01:17:33.050 out is PFAS, P-F-A-S, these forever chemicals you get from plastics. 1421 01:17:33.670 --> 01:17:37.029 He's got burning plastics. Well, it's not just that. It's 1422 01:17:37.140 --> 01:17:40.949 also just hot water. So like they take these bottles 1423 01:17:41.020 --> 01:17:43.779 of plastic, bottles of water in cases, and they've got 1424 01:17:43.819 --> 01:17:46.659 them sitting out in the sand, in the sun in 1425 01:17:46.699 --> 01:17:50.909 Afghanistan and Iraq. And that's their water supply. So they're 1426 01:17:50.930 --> 01:17:53.880 drinking this water that's been sitting out in the sun 1427 01:17:53.899 --> 01:17:56.939 that's leaching in these plastic bottles. So he found out 1428 01:17:56.979 --> 01:18:00.380 that his PFAS levels were off the charts, and that's 1429 01:18:00.460 --> 01:18:05.100 because he was deployed overseas all those years drinking that water. 1430 01:18:05.119 --> 01:18:07.939 Did you see this about the PFAS chemicals? No. 1431 01:18:07.960 --> 01:18:09.439 I just saw this come out, so I don't know 1432 01:18:09.539 --> 01:18:11.619 how tested it's been, but someone's figured out a way. 1433 01:18:11.520 --> 01:18:14.289 To get almost all of it out. Out of water, 1434 01:18:14.550 --> 01:18:15.649 but not your body, right? Yeah. 1435 01:18:16.090 --> 01:18:17.210 That's how it's getting in mostly. 1436 01:18:17.609 --> 01:18:19.949 Right, but the problem is once it gets in your body, 1437 01:18:19.989 --> 01:18:22.930 it's the problem. Because my friend still has it. I mean, 1438 01:18:23.449 --> 01:18:26.670 Evan has it in his body. Scientists have developed a 1439 01:18:26.729 --> 01:18:29.170 clever new way to trap forever chemicals in water using 1440 01:18:29.229 --> 01:18:35.029 nano-sized cages that lock onto PFAS molecules. Unlike current methods, 1441 01:18:35.069 -->

01:18:38.789 this approach can capture short-chain PFAS, the hardest type to remove. 1442 01:18:38.850 --> 01:18:40.869 Tests show that it can eliminate up to 98% of 1443 01:18:40.890 --> 01:18:44.770 these pollutants and still work after multiple uses. The discovery 1444 01:18:44.810 --> 01:18:48.399 could lead to more effective water filtration systems worldwide. Well, 1445 01:18:48.430 --> 01:18:54.479 that's good news. Science. Technology. Yeah. Dual use. 1446 01:18:54.560 --> 01:18:56.880 It can be good. It can help you or harm you. 1447 01:18:56.840 --> 01:18:59.079 Or kill you. And there's some brilliant people out there 1448 01:18:59.140 --> 01:19:01.260 that are figuring out ways to mitigate all the stupid 1449 01:19:01.279 --> 01:19:02.779 things that we do. Like that. 1450 01:19:03.119 --> 01:19:03.359 Yeah. 1451 01:19:04.340 --> 01:19:07.239 But people, you know, the whole new creeping up of 1452 01:19:07.720 --> 01:19:11.250 new diseases emerging and sort of like pockets of the 1453 01:19:11.289 --> 01:19:14.869 country and feeling like the CDC or the HHS has 1454 01:19:15.069 --> 01:19:19.369 no real lid on it or no real explanation, I 1455 01:19:19.409 --> 01:19:26.069 think kind of seriously undermines the general wellness of the nation. 1456 01:19:26.329 --> 01:19:28.449 Oh, for sure. Well, that was a big problem with 1457 01:19:28.489 --> 01:19:32.939 COVID is that this feeling of the fear and anxiety 1458 01:19:33.359 --> 01:19:37.659 affected people's immune systems as well, affected their their depression 1459 01:19:37.699 --> 01:19:41.960 levels affected their happiness, like just their overall feeling anxiety. 1460 01:19:41.979 --> 01:19:45.239 I mean, how much of an effect just the cortisol boost, 1461 01:19:45.960 --> 01:19:48.079 all the different things that are happening, the stressing out 1462 01:19:48.119 --> 01:19:50.460 your body because of that pandemic that we don't even 1463 01:19:50.500 --> 01:19:54.060 consider as being part of that experience. 1464 01:19:54.600 --> 01:19:57.199 I think also when you like, okay, can I give 1465 01:19:57.220 --> 01:19:59.899 you an anecdote? Because this comes to mind about what 1466 01:19:59.920 --> 01:20:03.720 you're saying is like that idea that there's uncertainty, okay? 1467 01:20:03.840 --> 01:20:07.220 And uncertainty raises your cortisol levels. And even worse is 1468 01:20:07.260 --> 01:20:11.329 when you're uncertain about something you're being told is true, 1469 01:20:11.409 --> 01:20:16.210 but you're like, I'm uncertain. That is like even more anxiety-making, right? 1470 01:20:17.630 --> 01:20:19.710 One of the things that's stunning to me is how 1471 01:20:20.189 --> 01:20:23.050 the CDC and the WHO, they're supposed to be these 1472 01:20:23.170 --> 01:20:27.579 pillars of sort of the North Star of public health. 1473 01:20:28.180 --> 01:20:30.000 At least they certainly were when I was a kid. 1474 01:20:30.079 --> 01:20:36.199 You really looked up to these organizations. COVID happens. The 1475 01:20:36.479 --> 01:20:42.020 WHO and the CDC, they're tweeting out three months into 1476 01:20:42.039 --> 01:20:48.079 the pandemic, COVID not airborne. Not is in capital letters. 1477 01:20:48.680 --> 01:20:50.100 I have a copy of the tweet in the book 1478 01:20:50.159 --> 01:20:53.659 because no one really believes this unless they see it. 1479 01:20:54.239 --> 01:20:58.680 COVID was airborne. COVID was airborne. That is How we 1480 01:20:58.760 --> 01:21:07.189 all got COVID, it makes something incredibly pandemic prone. Instead, 1481 01:21:07.350 --> 01:21:13.069 they said, remember, you get COVID from like touching surfaces. 1482 01:21:14.090 --> 01:21:18.399 We're all like out buying Lysol. The CDC went into 1483 01:21:18.520 --> 01:21:23.779 a partnership with Lysol. Lysol disappeared from the supply chain. 1484 01:21:26.199 --> 01:21:29.449 We now know, that's actually called fomite transmission. That's the 1485 01:21:29.470 --> 01:21:33.529 scientific term for getting something off a surface. We now 1486 01:21:33.590 --> 01:21:38.670 know that one in 10,000 cases of COVID was transmitted 1487 01:21:39.250 --> 01:21:43.689 from a surface. How can they have gotten it so 1488 01:21:43.750 --> 01:21:48.479 wrong is a question everybody should be asking. And the explanation, 1489 01:21:49.039 --> 01:21:52.180 because by the way, the WHO didn't change, they kind 1490 01:21:52.199 --> 01:21:56.510 of quietly changed about nine months later started saying COVID 1491 01:21:56.550 --> 01:22:00.010 was airborne, same as CDC. They never said like, look, 1492 01:22:00.029 --> 01:22:04.250 we're really sorry. We made a serious mistake and here's why. 1493 01:22:04.810 --> 01:22:07.659 And I called both the CDC and the WHO looking 1494 01:22:07.720 --> 01:22:10.840 for an explanation and asking why they never made an 1495 01:22:10.880 --> 01:22:15.579 apology and no answer. And I think that's like what 1496 01:22:15.600 --> 01:22:19.319 we're talking about. Talk about raising cortisol levels. You know, 1497 01:22:19.399 --> 01:22:23.729 when your institution says, is completely wrong. And by the way, 1498 01:22:23.850 --> 01:22:26.850 I don't think it was nefarious. They literally didn't know. 1499 01:22:26.909 --> 01:22:31.829 Or they had their panel of experts disagreeing to such 1500 01:22:31.869 --> 01:22:35.770 an extent that they just went with not airborne as 1501 01:22:35.850 --> 01:22:36.630 opposed to airborne. 1502 01:22:36.930 --> 01:22:38.489 It does weird you out that they were in a 1503 01:22:38.550 --> 01:22:39.789 partnership with Lysol. 1504 01:22:40.569 --> 01:22:42.760 I had to report that in the book because that is. 1505 01:22:42.770 --> 01:22:45.539 You just start thinking about profit motives. 1506 01:22:46.680 --> 01:22:49.680 I mean, if I had to guess, it was convenient 1507 01:22:50.239 --> 01:22:53.579 to have a partnership with them I don't have any 1508 01:22:53.619 -->

01:22:56.119 reason to believe that they were like, let's say it 1509 01:22:56.159 --> 01:23:00.899 was fomite transmission and partner up with Lysol. But certainly 1510 01:23:00.939 --> 01:23:04.350 if you're Lysol, you're going to probably go, hey, guys, 1511 01:23:04.369 --> 01:23:08.609 let's partner together. But, you know, it disappeared from the 1512 01:23:08.649 --> 01:23:10.670 supply chain. I remember trying to buy Lysol and not 1513 01:23:10.710 --> 01:23:12.050 being able to at Target. 1514 01:23:12.409 --> 01:23:15.789 It was just gone. Hand sanitizer was everywhere. Everyone was 1515 01:23:15.810 --> 01:23:18.210 squirting that stuff. Now it turns out hand sanitizer is 1516 01:23:18.270 --> 01:23:19.350 just not good for you. 1517 01:23:19.949 --> 01:23:23.449 And I still see people using hand sanitizer all over 1518 01:23:23.489 --> 01:23:26.739 the place, bottles of it, like in corporate places. It's 1519 01:23:26.800 --> 01:23:27.579 really bad. 1520 01:23:28.060 --> 01:23:31.880 Yeah. Well, your skin is an organ, and you're taking 1521 01:23:31.939 --> 01:23:35.699 this stuff that just nukes all of your skin flora, 1522 01:23:36.500 --> 01:23:39.020 and you're just wiping your hands with it and rubbing 1523 01:23:39.060 --> 01:23:42.720 it all over you. Like, that's not good. There's nothing 1524 01:23:42.760 --> 01:23:46.260 good about that. Wash your hands. Fucking soap. Use some soap. 1525 01:23:46.460 --> 01:23:48.260 Or not. Don't worry about it as much. 1526 01:23:48.479 --> 01:23:51.640 It seems like the common sense part of health has 1527 01:23:51.859 --> 01:23:53.619 kind of gone out the window. I saw this article 1528 01:23:53.659 --> 01:23:56.319 the other day, which was talking about how kids our age. 1529 01:23:56.340 --> 01:23:59.079 You remember, like, I went to a play. I grew 1530 01:23:59.119 --> 01:24:03.739 up in rural Connecticut. And, like, the playground was, like, dirt. 1531 01:24:04.479 --> 01:24:04.739 Right? 1532 01:24:04.979 --> 01:24:08.050 There were, like, monkey bars. You know what I mean? 1533 01:24:08.090 --> 01:24:09.199 You were, like, you got dirty. 1534 01:24:09.279 --> 01:24:11.060 I would, like. It's good for you. Yeah. 1535 01:24:11.479 --> 01:24:15.560 And now it's, like, you know. fake whatever that stuff is, 1536 01:24:15.579 --> 01:24:20.340 you know? And this scientific study that I came upon 1537 01:24:20.380 --> 01:24:21.920 when I was looking, when I was working on this 1538 01:24:21.960 --> 01:24:25.140 was like, that actually that dirt is really good for you. 1539 01:24:25.159 --> 01:24:27.079 You know, right? 1540 01:24:27.600 --> 01:24:33.319 Like surprise, surprise. We've evolved. We have evolved by, you know, 1541 01:24:33.680 --> 01:24:34.680 dealing with germs. 1542 01:24:35.079 --> 01:24:36.680 Well, that's why kids are always putting things in their 1543 01:24:36.699 --> 01:24:39.460 mouth and touching things. Like it's actually probably good for 1544 01:24:39.479 --> 01:24:43.850 them to be exposed to all these different bio things, 1545 01:24:43.890 --> 01:24:47.470 these different, you know, whatever it is, bacteria and germs, 1546 01:24:47.489 --> 01:24:49.609 but it strengthens your immune system. 1547 01:24:50.170 --> 01:24:53.720 It's kind of common sense too, you know, like the 1548 01:24:53.729 --> 01:24:55.939 pacifier rule, you know, when you're a new mom and 1549 01:24:55.979 --> 01:24:57.680 it's like, if it fell on the floor for like, 1550 01:24:57.819 --> 01:24:59.800 I mean, it's kind of gross, but three seconds, then 1551 01:24:59.859 --> 01:25:03.020 it's fine. That one's probably not so good. 1552 01:25:03.199 --> 01:25:06.420 Well, a certain amount of exposure does strengthen your immune 1553 01:25:06.439 --> 01:25:09.060 system and kids that are just living in these completely 1554 01:25:09.119 --> 01:25:11.739 sterile environments are You got to think that they have 1555 01:25:11.819 --> 01:25:14.439 an atrophied immune system because their immune system is not 1556 01:25:14.470 --> 01:25:18.250 having to battle this stuff. We're terrified of what we 1557 01:25:18.289 --> 01:25:20.590 don't know. And that's part of the problem with having 1558 01:25:20.649 --> 01:25:24.649 bad experts or experts that have really flawed approaches. 1559 01:25:25.270 --> 01:25:28.430 I mean, that's what was so interesting writing this book 1560 01:25:28.529 --> 01:25:34.149 because I learned so much about biology and about physiology, right? 1561 01:25:34.210 --> 01:25:40.380 Like we all deal with disease so incredibly differently. There 1562 01:25:40.439 --> 01:25:45.649 is not a set, you know, pathogen A impacts people differently. 1563 01:25:46.279 --> 01:25:49.710 And why there isn't more of that, why people don't 1564 01:25:49.829 --> 01:25:53.689 lean into that mother nature mystery more, and I'm talking 1565 01:25:53.710 --> 01:25:59.470 about public health officials, I don't understand. Because what has happened, 1566 01:25:59.670 --> 01:26:03.369 I see in society, is it's created this fracture where 1567 01:26:03.409 --> 01:26:08.880 you're either following a sort of set of scientific data, 1568 01:26:09.000 --> 01:26:11.979 which just came from a one lab or one group 1569 01:26:12.020 --> 01:26:17.020 of scientists, you're either following that or you're somehow having 1570 01:26:17.060 --> 01:26:24.079 an alternate narrative that is actually somehow harmful. And it 1571 01:26:24.140 --> 01:26:27.600 couldn't be more the opposite. It couldn't be more the opposite. 1572 01:26:27.640 --> 01:26:31.020 And when the shit hits the fan, you need a 1573 01:26:31.100 --> 01:26:35.699 kind of unity among people. You need a sense of like, okay, well, 1574 01:26:35.720 --> 01:26:38.359 we all disagree and we all have different immune systems, 1575 01:26:38.720 --> 01:26:42.350 but what's best for the kind of greater the collective. 1576 01:26:42.949 --> 01:26:45.739 And that's just gone now. That is

completely gone. And 1577 01:26:46.359 --> 01:26:49.920 I find more than anything that people, the Fauci hearings 1578 01:26:50.619 --> 01:26:54.039 in point, like instead of being like, hmm, maybe I 1579 01:26:54.079 --> 01:26:57.079 need to change my mind about this. People are like, well, 1580 01:26:57.119 --> 01:26:59.399 if it serves my side, I'm going to go louder. 1581 01:26:59.420 --> 01:27:01.760 And if it doesn't serve my side, I'm going to 1582 01:27:02.279 --> 01:27:03.520 move on to something else. 1583 01:27:03.800 --> 01:27:03.899 Yeah. 1584 01:27:03.920 --> 01:27:08.369 I've seen people talk about what a travesty bringing him 1585 01:27:08.390 --> 01:27:11.229 in front of the Congress and having him question like 1586 01:27:11.270 --> 01:27:13.909 that and how much good he's done. I've seen people 1587 01:27:13.930 --> 01:27:17.350 like making these statements online, like, what are you seeing 1588 01:27:17.369 --> 01:27:19.359 that I'm not seeing? Because I'm not seeing that. I'm 1589 01:27:19.380 --> 01:27:21.739 seeing someone who doesn't want to tell the truth. And 1590 01:27:21.779 --> 01:27:27.560 someone's emails show a completely contradictory version of what happened 1591 01:27:28.140 --> 01:27:32.329 versus what he's publicly stated before, including when he was 1592 01:27:32.350 --> 01:27:37.130 testifying before under oath. So he really should be charged 1593 01:27:37.149 --> 01:27:41.159 with perjury. but because of this whole 10-year immunity thing 1594 01:27:41.189 --> 01:27:42.789 that he got, he doesn't have to worry about any 1595 01:27:42.810 --> 01:27:47.329 of that, which is also weird because the immunity, the 1596 01:27:47.710 --> 01:27:51.869 pardon is supposed to protect you from being prosecuted, but 1597 01:27:51.909 --> 01:27:54.829 then you're no longer supposed to have the Fifth Amendment. Yes. 1598 01:27:55.170 --> 01:27:57.170 I mean, those legal things will play out. They will 1599 01:27:57.189 --> 01:28:00.810 take a lot of time, you know, and that will 1600 01:28:01.390 --> 01:28:04.359 go on. What I also want to know is, Because 1601 01:28:04.420 --> 01:28:06.979 none of these things happen in a vacuum, right? And 1602 01:28:07.000 --> 01:28:10.739 it reminds me a little bit of that phrase, you know, 1603 01:28:10.760 --> 01:28:13.899 when the rats jump off the Titanic as it was sinking. 1604 01:28:13.979 --> 01:28:19.399 Because I have a little different experience. I watch different individuals, 1605 01:28:19.439 --> 01:28:23.189 certainly in the news, carefully of like who's changing because 1606 01:28:23.250 --> 01:28:25.000 I just want to learn from it. I don't report it. 1607 01:28:25.350 --> 01:28:28.689 I'm just eyeing it. And I'm seeing people kind of decide, oh, 1608 01:28:28.850 --> 01:28:32.569 maybe now I'll say a little more about, you know, Fauci, right? 1609 01:28:33.199 --> 01:28:35.710 Because I do think that people end up having a, 1610 01:28:37.060 --> 01:28:39.619 they will

go where the collective is going, right? If 1611 01:28:39.699 --> 01:28:42.640 their party starts to turn, okay? And because I don't 1612 01:28:43.560 --> 01:28:46.159 write about politics at all, I'm not involved in this, 1613 01:28:46.199 --> 01:28:50.029 but observationally, it's interesting to me. But for this reason 1614 01:28:50.130 --> 01:28:54.250 in particular, is that why was Fauci in charge? There 1615 01:28:54.310 --> 01:28:57.829 are other people who are responsible for letting him be 1616 01:28:57.869 --> 01:29:01.770 in charge. Like, Having studied the bureaucracy of what happens 1617 01:29:01.829 --> 01:29:05.550 in a pandemic in a biological incident, which this was, 1618 01:29:07.630 --> 01:29:11.770 there's no reason that he was in charge. There's not 1619 01:29:11.989 --> 01:29:15.710 doctrine that put him in charge. It was kind of 1620 01:29:15.770 --> 01:29:21.060 like a group, okay, he'll be in charge. Really, the 1621 01:29:21.100 --> 01:29:26.960 person in charge is the secretary of HHS. That is 1622 01:29:27.020 --> 01:29:29.899 the person in charge. In fact, Joe, I was invited 1623 01:29:29.939 --> 01:29:32.380 to the White House last week, right? They asked me 1624 01:29:32.420 --> 01:29:35.739 to come and bring some copies of Biological War Scenario. 1625 01:29:37.560 --> 01:29:39.159 I went. Did you meet with Trump? 1626 01:29:39.180 --> 01:29:41.930 No, I didn't. I met with HHS. I met with 1627 01:29:41.939 --> 01:29:46.189 the chief technology officer of HHS. And they said in 1628 01:29:46.229 --> 01:29:48.989 their original email, you know, we're the ones that would 1629 01:29:49.029 --> 01:29:51.789 be in charge in the event of this kind of 1630 01:29:51.829 --> 01:29:55.289 a thing, which I know from having reported it. So 1631 01:29:55.369 --> 01:30:01.189 they're in charge. Why did Fauci get to take the torch? 1632 01:30:01.670 --> 01:30:02.189 Why do you think? 1633 01:30:02.810 --> 01:30:05.399 I don't know. But it should be looked at. In 1634 01:30:05.439 --> 01:30:10.380 other words, yes, we all know that he was in 1635 01:30:10.420 --> 01:30:13.640 charge and he was always. But what I don't understand 1636 01:30:13.720 --> 01:30:17.340 is in a billion, actually trillion dollar, HHS, by the way, 1637 01:30:17.659 --> 01:30:21.220 has a budget that's twice the size of the Defense Department. 1638 01:30:22.100 --> 01:30:27.260 Twice the size of the Defense Department. And it defaulted 1639 01:30:27.399 --> 01:30:30.840 to Fauci, who was head of NIH, then retired, and 1640 01:30:30.859 --> 01:30:34.579 then he was just chosen as like the president's lead 1641 01:30:35.359 --> 01:30:40.109 medical counsel or medical professional. So in other words, a 1642 01:30:40.170 --> 01:30:47.069 group of people put him into that position. Who are they? Why? 1643 01:30:47.609 --> 01:30:49.109 What do they have to say about this? 1644 01:30:52.130 --> 01:30:55.229 Yeah. I'm sure part of it was just they needed 1645 01:30:55.390 --> 01:30:58.510 someone to take the reins and he was more than 1646 01:30:58.569 --> 01:31:01.890 willing to do it and probably confidently stated how he 1647 01:31:01.930 --> 01:31:04.229 would handle it and what we're going to do and 1648 01:31:04.270 --> 01:31:05.149 how to go about it. 1649 01:31:05.720 --> 01:31:09.819 And didn't those people also have an opinion? Like what 1650 01:31:09.880 --> 01:31:13.159 if they saw the Jon Stewart episode where, you know, 1651 01:31:13.460 --> 01:31:15.859 like even if they didn't have an opinion before, why 1652 01:31:15.899 --> 01:31:18.460 didn't they have an opinion after? And why, why did 1653 01:31:18.579 --> 01:31:23.079 everybody just fall into line like sheep? That's, really more 1654 01:31:23.840 --> 01:31:27.300 interesting to me at this point. In addition to the 1655 01:31:27.380 --> 01:31:33.010 individual being held responsible for obviously misleading the public and 1656 01:31:33.210 --> 01:31:38.670 creating a conspiratorial situation, conspiring is simply two or more 1657 01:31:38.729 --> 01:31:42.960 people working to conceal the truth. It's an actual conspiracy. Well, 1658 01:31:42.979 --> 01:31:43.619 that's a. 1659 01:31:43.840 --> 01:31:48.800 Weird thing too, that people resist the term conspiracy and 1660 01:31:48.819 --> 01:31:49.760 they think it's foolish. 1661 01:31:49.960 --> 01:31:52.170 It's a legitimate term. I mean, I think when people 1662 01:31:52.229 --> 01:31:55.109 call other people conspiracy theorists, they should just say they 1663 01:31:55.149 --> 01:31:58.329 have an alternative narrative. That's all that is. But an 1664 01:31:58.510 --> 01:32:00.789 actual conspiracy is a legal term. 1665 01:32:01.289 --> 01:32:04.289 Well, not only that, there's a huge amount that you 1666 01:32:04.329 --> 01:32:08.350 can point to in history where there were really people conspiring. 1667 01:32:08.689 --> 01:32:09.520 Huge amount of stories. 1668 01:32:10.220 --> 01:32:14.680 And the reason why it's legally, you know, it's a 1669 01:32:14.739 --> 01:32:17.140 really difficult situation and it needs to be looked at 1670 01:32:17.199 --> 01:32:21.409 is because one person you know, it can keep a secret, right? 1671 01:32:21.609 --> 01:32:25.689 But when multiple people are involved and a conspiracy is involved, 1672 01:32:26.100 --> 01:32:30.720 you are actively working as a group to mislead. And 1673 01:32:30.939 --> 01:32:34.920 then it becomes easier, more powerful, more effective. And so 1674 01:32:35.399 --> 01:32:38.899 those other scientists, you know, we now know on the 1675 01:32:38.939 --> 01:32:43.060 record that there were a dozen scientists that Fauci looked 1676 01:32:43.199 --> 01:32:48.270 to give him information about lab leak versus wet market. 1677 01:32:48.840 --> 01:32:53.239 Ten of them went with lab leak. Two of them 1678 01:32:53.640 --> 01:32:55.060 leaned toward. 1679 01:32:56.500 --> 01:32:56.899 Natural. 1680 01:32:57.520 -->

01:33:01.689 Fauci wanted it to be natural spillover. You know, that's 1681 01:33:01.729 --> 01:33:05.369 where you could say then there began. And again, I'm 1682 01:33:05.390 --> 01:33:07.970 just talking legal terms. I'm not a lawyer, but they 1683 01:33:08.029 --> 01:33:10.529 began to conspire to change the story. 1684 01:33:10.569 --> 01:33:10.689 Right. 1685 01:33:10.989 --> 01:33:12.090 Just look at the numbers. 1686 01:33:12.300 --> 01:33:12.520 Yes. 1687 01:33:12.880 --> 01:33:13.600 Look at the numbers. 1688 01:33:13.800 --> 01:33:14.039 Yeah. 1689 01:33:14.579 --> 01:33:17.689 And so what about that? you know, because I think 1690 01:33:17.729 --> 01:33:19.960 if you're just going to have a single fall guy, 1691 01:33:20.380 --> 01:33:24.539 you're really not going to be doing much for the 1692 01:33:24.659 --> 01:33:29.060 future to have people, you know, a group of people say, 1693 01:33:29.079 --> 01:33:30.520 you know, I don't want to be part of this 1694 01:33:30.590 --> 01:33:36.689 conspiracy because that's an important individual stance that can be 1695 01:33:36.750 --> 01:33:41.069 taken by many people. And we see that among, you 1696 01:33:41.109 --> 01:33:42.979 said you have friends who don't want to kind of 1697 01:33:43.760 --> 01:33:45.819 take a position because they don't want to be associated 1698 01:33:45.859 --> 01:33:48.380 with that group or that group. Well, you know, if 1699 01:33:48.460 --> 01:33:53.880 it starts in the center and there's responsibility for the group, 1700 01:33:54.859 --> 01:33:59.420 I think that makes people think more open-mindedly in the future. 1701 01:33:59.899 --> 01:34:02.319 Well, the problem was these people's career depended upon them 1702 01:34:02.390 --> 01:34:05.710 towing the line. And if they stepped outside of Fauci's 1703 01:34:05.729 --> 01:34:07.829 jurisdiction and power, they were fucked. 1704 01:34:08.350 --> 01:34:08.569 Absolutely. 1705 01:34:08.590 --> 01:34:11.029 That's the real problem. And he clearly did that to 1706 01:34:11.189 --> 01:34:14.359 people like, Jay Bhattacharya and all these different people that 1707 01:34:14.399 --> 01:34:18.060 got kicked off of Twitter and maligned people that were 1708 01:34:18.079 --> 01:34:20.560 like serious experts that disagreed with a lot of different 1709 01:34:20.619 --> 01:34:21.600 aspects of the pandemic. 1710 01:34:21.840 --> 01:34:25.279 I mean, people's they they attempted to ruin people's careers. 1711 01:34:25.399 --> 01:34:25.619 Yeah. 1712 01:34:25.850 --> 01:34:28.989 I mean, it's so bizarre that it comes around full circle. 1713 01:34:29.630 --> 01:34:32.250 And now the people whose career you tried to ruin 1714 01:34:32.289 --> 01:34:34.210 has your job. I mean, that's like a cycle of 1715 01:34:34.250 --> 01:34:38.430 revenge that is great, you know, or Bhattacharya. I mean, 1716 01:34:38.449 --> 01:34:41.880 that's great. Like for for revenge TV, but it's not 1717 01:34:42.000 --> 01:34:43.220 great in a

democracy. 1718 01:34:43.659 --> 01:34:45.560 Well, we're fortunate that it turned out that way, but 1719 01:34:45.600 --> 01:34:47.750 it didn't have to. I mean, if Kamala Harris had won, 1720 01:34:47.810 --> 01:34:50.590 it wouldn't have. It would have been a totally different administration. 1721 01:34:51.289 --> 01:34:53.010 And it would probably have been the same people that 1722 01:34:53.029 --> 01:34:56.250 were there during the Biden administration plus. And it's weird 1723 01:34:56.270 --> 01:35:01.869 that the term conspiracy theory became a pejorative really during 1724 01:35:02.069 --> 01:35:04.750 the Kennedy assassination. Because there was a bunch of people 1725 01:35:04.789 --> 01:35:08.270 that didn't buy it. And they got maligned. They got 1726 01:35:08.329 --> 01:35:12.449 labeled as conspiracy theorists. So then that's when that term 1727 01:35:12.850 --> 01:35:15.909 became this thing that you would apply to kooks. Because 1728 01:35:15.949 --> 01:35:19.590 a conspiracy is a real thing. It is. A conspiracy theorist, 1729 01:35:19.630 --> 01:35:22.130 it's like saying, I'm a murder theorist. Oh, murder. Get 1730 01:35:22.710 --> 01:35:25.909 out of here. There's no murder. You're a murder. When 1731 01:35:25.930 --> 01:35:27.189 was the last time you saw a murder? Have you 1732 01:35:27.229 --> 01:35:29.829 ever seen a murder? Shut up. Why are you worried 1733 01:35:29.869 --> 01:35:32.560 about that? It's really kind of the same thing. Because people, 100%, like, 1734 01:35:33.579 --> 01:35:35.699 You could point to Enron. You could point to the 1735 01:35:35.729 --> 01:35:38.689 weapons of mass destruction thing in Iraq. There's a lot 1736 01:35:38.710 --> 01:35:42.489 of conspiracies that have proven to be a group of 1737 01:35:42.569 --> 01:35:45.369 powerful people who conspired to mislead people. 1738 01:35:45.949 --> 01:35:49.060 It's a serious charge. When they take down mafia bosses, 1739 01:35:49.069 --> 01:35:52.960 they take them down on fraud, racketeering and conspiracy. 1740 01:35:53.020 --> 01:35:55.920 Exactly. I mean, it's just a natural thing that people 1741 01:35:55.960 --> 01:35:59.199 do to protect their own interests or to make money 1742 01:35:59.420 --> 01:36:02.810 or to hide a crime or whatever it is. It's normal. 1743 01:36:03.229 --> 01:36:05.420 It's interesting. If you change it around and you say 1744 01:36:05.439 --> 01:36:09.579 they were conspiring, it doesn't have the same stink, right? 1745 01:36:09.699 --> 01:36:13.000 Which is essentially what that group of scientists were doing. 1746 01:36:13.039 --> 01:36:18.479 They were conspiring. We now know from documents that we 1747 01:36:18.520 --> 01:36:21.300 have seen revealed by the Senate in the past couple 1748 01:36:21.340 --> 01:36:26.619 weeks that this group of scientists were conspiring to mislead 1749 01:36:26.859 --> 01:36:29.989 the public. That is just if you keep it simple 1750 01:36:30.050 --> 01:36:33.470 on that and you even take the names out, that 1751 01:36:33.529 --> 01:36:37.189 is a serious. And then you might say, wait, what 1752 01:36:37.609 --> 01:36:41.840 were they conspiring about? Oh, a pan. The origin story 1753 01:36:41.880 --> 01:36:45.720 of a pandemic which killed all these people, you know, 1754 01:36:46.840 --> 01:36:53.420 deprived kids across America of education, normal education for several years, 1755 01:36:54.800 --> 01:36:58.859 ruined businesses. and kept people from seeing their loved ones. 1756 01:36:59.119 --> 01:37:03.380 There was also a conspiracy to terrify people, to make 1757 01:37:03.420 --> 01:37:05.979 it seem like the disease was more deadly than it was. 1758 01:37:06.859 --> 01:37:09.890 They knew that the infection or the death rate was 1759 01:37:10.050 --> 01:37:12.569 much lower than what they were proclaiming. They also knew 1760 01:37:12.590 --> 01:37:15.649 that it wasn't dangerous for kids, and yet they kept 1761 01:37:15.670 --> 01:37:17.850 saying that kids are dying. They kept saying kids are 1762 01:37:17.869 --> 01:37:20.270 going to die, everyone's going to die. They wanted us 1763 01:37:20.310 --> 01:37:22.609 to be scared, which is really terrifying. It's a big 1764 01:37:22.680 --> 01:37:25.380 part of it. Like, how much could have been changed... 1765 01:37:25.630 --> 01:37:28.859 how much could that pandemic, how much different would it 1766 01:37:28.880 --> 01:37:32.020 have been if that wasn't the case? If we had 1767 01:37:32.060 --> 01:37:35.520 approached it the way we understand COVID now, and if 1768 01:37:35.560 --> 01:37:37.819 they had said, listen, one of the big things is 1769 01:37:37.840 --> 01:37:41.399 your immune system. And America needs to be aware that 1770 01:37:41.479 --> 01:37:43.930 we have very nutrient poor diets. A lot of us, 1771 01:37:44.350 --> 01:37:48.369 we're not taking care of ourselves. And Ironically, the thing 1772 01:37:48.430 --> 01:37:50.390 is they wanted you to isolate and stay indoors. Well, 1773 01:37:50.489 --> 01:37:52.810 outside is how you get vitamin D. You get it 1774 01:37:52.850 --> 01:37:55.189 from the sun. That's the best method of getting vitamin D, 1775 01:37:55.250 --> 01:37:57.350 and it's actually good for your immune system to be outside. 1776 01:37:58.130 --> 01:37:59.989 So you're supposed to be taking care of yourself. You're 1777 01:38:00.010 --> 01:38:01.949 supposed to be eating vitamins and nutrients. And how many 1778 01:38:02.029 --> 01:38:04.430 more people would have survived if they had just did that? 1779 01:38:04.470 --> 01:38:06.890 How much lower would that death rate have been if 1780 01:38:07.310 --> 01:38:09.789 they had promoted the use of vitamin D along with 1781 01:38:09.829 --> 01:38:12.770 K2 and magnesium? All these different things like people need 1782 01:38:12.789 --> 01:38:15.689 to exercise, need to drink more water, be more hydrated, 1783 01:38:15.770 --> 01:38:18.939 take care of yourself, get sleep. All

these things affect 1784 01:38:18.960 --> 01:38:21.399 your immune system. And then on top of that, alcohol 1785 01:38:21.439 --> 01:38:24.300 consumption went way up during COVID because people were locked 1786 01:38:24.359 --> 01:38:26.310 up at home and they were just getting hammered all 1787 01:38:26.350 --> 01:38:26.710 the time. 1788 01:38:26.729 --> 01:38:30.949 I mean, the whole thing, like it was. a real 1789 01:38:31.229 --> 01:38:33.609 disaster when you think of it. It was a catastrophe 1790 01:38:34.329 --> 01:38:35.329 the way it was handled. 1791 01:38:36.029 --> 01:38:39.609 It was a financial catastrophe for small businesses and restaurants. 1792 01:38:40.270 --> 01:38:43.229 Do you find that people just like sort of it's 1793 01:38:43.250 --> 01:38:45.739 like denial? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1794 01:38:46.130 --> 01:38:47.590 He has a lot of people that don't want to 1795 01:38:47.630 --> 01:38:50.689 think about it because it was so weird. Like every 1796 01:38:50.729 --> 01:38:52.689 now and then, you know, I watch a lot of 1797 01:38:53.170 --> 01:38:56.569 fights for my job and because I love it. But 1798 01:38:57.369 --> 01:38:59.890 I'll watch fights that took place during the pandemic. And 1799 01:38:59.909 --> 01:39:02.989 you see all the corner people with masks on and 1800 01:39:03.010 --> 01:39:05.409 they're screaming with masks on. They pull their mask down 1801 01:39:05.430 --> 01:39:07.010 when they're yelling out instructions and they have to pull 1802 01:39:07.029 --> 01:39:10.649 their mask back up. It's so weird to see a 1803 01:39:10.689 --> 01:39:13.989 bunch of people just walking around with masks on. It's 1804 01:39:14.140 --> 01:39:20.520 so that to me is. That's a great encapsulation of 1805 01:39:20.579 --> 01:39:23.119 how chaotic that scene was because the mask didn't work 1806 01:39:23.159 --> 01:39:25.680 at all. So they weren't doing anything good for you. 1807 01:39:26.000 --> 01:39:28.659 But yet everybody had to have one. And you had 1808 01:39:28.680 --> 01:39:30.369 to show that you were on the right side by 1809 01:39:30.409 --> 01:39:32.869 wearing a mask. I sent a video to a friend 1810 01:39:32.909 --> 01:39:36.189 of mine where a group chat the other day of 1811 01:39:36.250 --> 01:39:40.699 this really kooky left wing group that demands masks at 1812 01:39:40.739 --> 01:39:43.600 all their gatherings. And they had, you know, like boxes 1813 01:39:43.640 --> 01:39:46.409 of masks. They're still, they're all wearing masks and they're 1814 01:39:46.430 --> 01:39:50.649 talking with masks. And then there's this left-wing martial arts 1815 01:39:50.710 --> 01:39:53.430 class that I follow on Instagram. And they do their 1816 01:39:53.470 --> 01:39:56.689 martial arts with masks on. So they're training. They're doing 1817 01:39:56.710 --> 01:40:00.800 jujitsu with masks on. Like, this is hilarious. This is 1818 01:40:00.939 --> 01:40:04.079 so crazy. But they're just committed to it. And I say, 1819 01:40:04.279 --> 01:40:06.279 what I've always said is that the mask is the 1820 01:40:06.340 --> 01:40:07.180 left-wing MAGA hat. 1821 01:40:07.199 --> 01:40:07.279 Yeah. 1822 01:40:08.020 --> 01:40:10.180 It's a MAGA hat. It's just for to let people 1823 01:40:10.220 --> 01:40:12.470 know that you're a progressive, you're a leftist. I'm going 1824 01:40:12.489 --> 01:40:14.670 to wear a mask everywhere. And so they're wearing them 1825 01:40:14.689 --> 01:40:17.689 in these big meetings that they're doing. They're wearing them 1826 01:40:18.050 --> 01:40:22.649 when they're gathering. It's like, what? What is this? They're 1827 01:40:22.670 --> 01:40:25.350 speaking with masks on. So they're on a stage nowhere 1828 01:40:25.409 --> 01:40:29.489 near people with a mask on, speaking into a microphone 1829 01:40:29.560 --> 01:40:32.960 with a fucking mask on in 2026. So it's like 1830 01:40:33.000 --> 01:40:36.550 there's people that are like, You know those people that 1831 01:40:36.609 --> 01:40:38.369 didn't want to admit that the war was over and 1832 01:40:38.390 --> 01:40:40.310 they were all like Japanese guys on the island? 1833 01:40:40.329 --> 01:40:41.600 They found them in the hole. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1834 01:40:41.770 --> 01:40:43.880 That's what they're like. They're like, we're not giving up. 1835 01:40:43.939 --> 01:40:46.279 The war is still going on. COVID is still a 1836 01:40:46.300 --> 01:40:48.859 real thing. And there's people that have like TikTok channels 1837 01:40:49.180 --> 01:40:52.279 where they're constantly talking about masking. It's important to mask. 1838 01:40:53.000 --> 01:40:56.420 So I went into the L.A. County Department of Building 1839 01:40:56.460 --> 01:40:59.859 and Safety a month ago. And they had a sign 1840 01:40:59.899 --> 01:41:03.050 that said, we know the mask mandate is over. but 1841 01:41:03.090 --> 01:41:08.430 we strongly encourage you to wear a mask. True story. 1842 01:41:08.689 --> 01:41:11.369 Well, that's so crazy because what is the name of 1843 01:41:11.390 --> 01:41:13.090 this organization that you went to? What was the building? 1844 01:41:13.210 --> 01:41:16.250 Building and Safety. LA Building and Safety. Like where you 1845 01:41:16.289 --> 01:41:17.829 have to go if you're getting a permit. 1846 01:41:18.109 --> 01:41:20.649 So these are the experts. And how do they not 1847 01:41:20.689 --> 01:41:23.609 know the data on masks? Because the data on masks 1848 01:41:23.689 --> 01:41:27.789 is pretty clear. They don't work. They weren't effective. So 1849 01:41:27.829 --> 01:41:29.930 if they don't work and they didn't stop the spread, 1850 01:41:29.989 --> 01:41:34.529 the transmission, or the infection rate, Why are you encouraging masks? 1851 01:41:35.289 --> 01:41:38.729 It's because you're encouraging an ideology. That's what you're doing. 1852 01:41:39.369 --> 01:41:41.409 So one of the guys I interviewed for the book, 1853 01:41:42.050 --> 01:41:46.310 Admiral Brett

Giroir, really interesting guy. He was number two 1854 01:41:46.850 --> 01:41:51.060 at HHS during the pandemic. And do you remember when 1855 01:41:51.220 --> 01:41:52.520 the cruise ship happened? 1856 01:41:52.539 --> 01:41:53.060 Oh, yeah. 1857 01:41:53.079 --> 01:41:55.020 Okay, remember that? The super spreader event? 1858 01:41:55.119 --> 01:41:55.500 Oh, yeah. 1859 01:41:56.359 --> 01:42:00.569 So Giroir, really interesting guy, like first guy. in a 1860 01:42:00.630 --> 01:42:04.350 tiny town in Texas that goes to Harvard. He's a pediatrician. 1861 01:42:04.399 --> 01:42:08.760 He's seen like kids die. He became head of DARPA bioscientists, 1862 01:42:08.779 --> 01:42:12.140 like has this very interesting career, really stand up guy. 1863 01:42:12.159 --> 01:42:14.220 He did a lot of interviews with me trying to 1864 01:42:14.579 --> 01:42:16.720 help me understand this. So, and I was asking him 1865 01:42:17.199 --> 01:42:21.840 about masks. So after that cruise ship was quarantined, there 1866 01:42:21.880 --> 01:42:24.800 were 300 and some odd Americans on it that needed 1867 01:42:24.819 --> 01:42:29.960 to be repatriated. Girard sends like two top-level infectious disease 1868 01:42:30.060 --> 01:42:35.020 experts in biohazard suits on military planes to bring them 1869 01:42:35.079 --> 01:42:39.340 all back. At this point, they don't know how deadly 1870 01:42:39.359 --> 01:42:42.119 it is. This is like a couple weeks into the pandemic. 1871 01:42:43.000 --> 01:42:46.909 They come back. They're quarantined at a military base in Texas. 1872 01:42:47.789 --> 01:42:51.310 And Girard trying to like ease public fear because he's 1873 01:42:51.350 --> 01:42:53.529 that guy. Like he did not want people to be afraid. 1874 01:42:54.489 --> 01:43:00.189 He is– seen in this news report, all the cruise 1875 01:43:00.210 --> 01:43:02.930 ship people are like behind the fence in this chain 1876 01:43:02.949 --> 01:43:06.949 link fence because they're quarantined. And Gerard is like 15 1877 01:43:06.949 --> 01:43:10.090 feet over there talking to them and he doesn't have 1878 01:43:10.130 --> 01:43:13.710 a mask on. And this is when the first idea 1879 01:43:13.750 --> 01:43:15.649 of the masks came out. And I asked him and 1880 01:43:15.689 --> 01:43:18.409 I said, why didn't you have a mask on? He said, well, 1881 01:43:19.029 --> 01:43:21.350 first of all, masks, it's not just that masks don't work. 1882 01:43:21.560 --> 01:43:24.689 It's that You have to be trained properly. Like a 1883 01:43:24.729 --> 01:43:27.770 mask can work if you have an N95 and it's 1884 01:43:28.310 --> 01:43:31.430 put on your face and fitted to your face. And 1885 01:43:31.470 --> 01:43:34.060 it works for 15 minutes. That's what he said. And 1886 01:43:34.100 --> 01:43:37.500 he said, I have a unique nose and facial shape. 1887 01:43:37.680 --> 01:43:39.380 So the mask is never going to work on me. 1888 01:43:39.840 --> 01:43:41.640 So I just stood 50 feet away. 1889 01:43:42.039 --> 01:43:42.319 Okay. 1890 01:43:42.840 --> 01:43:45.340 This is the number two at HHS. And I said, 1891 01:43:45.819 --> 01:43:50.569 why didn't you tell us all that? Like, okay, first 1892 01:43:50.590 --> 01:43:51.609 of all, it's a little levity. 1893 01:43:52.220 --> 01:43:52.819 You know what I mean? 1894 01:43:53.020 --> 01:43:55.890 Like that the number two guy in charge. 1895 01:43:56.590 --> 01:43:58.569 Has a big nose. Right? 1896 01:43:58.949 --> 01:44:00.289 And that he's the first guy to admit it. 1897 01:44:00.409 --> 01:44:01.250 What was his answer? 1898 01:44:02.630 --> 01:44:05.529 His answer, why didn't you tell him that? Oh, he said, 1899 01:44:06.829 --> 01:44:11.000 I'm paraphrasing, but he was like, you know, it was 1900 01:44:11.039 --> 01:44:17.119 the equivalent of like orders from top down. Don't argue 1901 01:44:17.180 --> 01:44:19.819 with what we're trying to accomplish. I mean, that was 1902 01:44:19.890 --> 01:44:25.340 essentially what it is. And when I asked him more 1903 01:44:25.399 --> 01:44:30.060 about that, you know, it's like we had so much 1904 01:44:30.279 --> 01:44:33.159 on our hands that we were trying, like he specifically 1905 01:44:33.199 --> 01:44:37.689 was trying to deal with 300 quarantined people and trying 1906 01:44:37.739 --> 01:44:41.789 to prepare. He also had people that were dying in Japan, 1907 01:44:41.829 --> 01:44:43.949 like the elderly on the ship that couldn't get brought back. 1908 01:44:44.569 --> 01:44:46.510 And so I got the sense from him, he's like 1909 01:44:46.529 --> 01:44:49.170 a very dedicated public servant, in my opinion. And I 1910 01:44:49.210 --> 01:44:52.579 could see from interviews with him, in real time, you're 1911 01:44:52.619 --> 01:45:00.329 dealing with so much incredible, intense responsibilities. What I take 1912 01:45:00.489 --> 01:45:03.210 issue with after all the fallout and what I see 1913 01:45:03.310 --> 01:45:06.250 from Fauci, for example, is that, and again, this is 1914 01:45:06.289 --> 01:45:08.689 just my opinion, but it seems to be that there 1915 01:45:08.850 --> 01:45:15.000 are people who are actually really dedicated public servants who 1916 01:45:15.079 --> 01:45:19.119 are trying to find a solution, filling the shoes that 1917 01:45:19.180 --> 01:45:26.119 they And then there's others who are looking maybe more 1918 01:45:26.180 --> 01:45:29.199 for personal gain, as you said, the money, the power, 1919 01:45:29.260 --> 01:45:31.699 the prestige. And so I think one of the most 1920 01:45:31.800 --> 01:45:35.189 disheartening things that have come out of the reveals of 1921 01:45:35.229 --> 01:45:39.170 the Senate to me is like somebody like Dr. Fauci, 1922 01:45:39.729 --> 01:45:45.010 you know, suggesting himself for these million dollar awards at 1923 01:45:45.050 --> 01:45:48.770 a time when people aren't even able to see their 1924 01:45:48.810 --> 01:45:54.420 dying grandmother. And even though it's less

legal, it's more, 1925 01:45:55.119 --> 01:45:59.300 it speaks more to, are you kidding me? 1926 01:45:59.380 --> 01:46:00.079 The motivation. 1927 01:46:00.159 --> 01:46:01.319 Are you really kidding me? 1928 01:46:01.380 --> 01:46:02.100 Who are you really? 1929 01:46:02.180 --> 01:46:03.100 You know, like. 1930 01:46:03.199 --> 01:46:05.800 You have your staff campaigning for you to get these 1931 01:46:05.840 --> 01:46:06.500 huge awards. 1932 01:46:06.840 --> 01:46:09.180 And I find it really, because, you know, there was 1933 01:46:09.239 --> 01:46:11.020 a review of the New York Times, in the New 1934 01:46:11.050 --> 01:46:14.149 York Times of my book. And, you know, they actually gave, 1935 01:46:14.689 --> 01:46:16.789 lo and behold, they gave me this book, a great review. Like, 1936 01:46:16.810 --> 01:46:19.130 you got to read it. But there's one thing I, 1937 01:46:19.310 --> 01:46:21.289 this is the reviewer said, there's one thing I disagree 1938 01:46:21.310 --> 01:46:24.409 with Annie Jacobson about. She seems to think that like 1939 01:46:24.510 --> 01:46:27.590 the government is actually filled with good guys. I'm preparing, 1940 01:46:27.949 --> 01:46:32.520 I'm paraphrasing that. But I do believe that, Jo, because 1941 01:46:32.539 --> 01:46:37.279 I've interviewed so many individuals for all eight of my books, 1942 01:46:37.359 --> 01:46:40.439 more than a hundred. And maybe it's just the people 1943 01:46:40.500 --> 01:46:42.520 that I enjoy interviewing and I know how to like, 1944 01:46:43.180 --> 01:46:48.100 you know, avoid the the sycophants, if you will, or 1945 01:46:48.140 --> 01:46:50.119 the people who are in it for the wrong reason. 1946 01:46:50.140 --> 01:46:53.420 But I feel like there are extraordinary number of people 1947 01:46:53.600 --> 01:46:58.520 in our military, in our State Department, in the intelligence 1948 01:46:58.560 --> 01:47:04.470 community who are actually really capable people doing their job 1949 01:47:04.609 --> 01:47:06.350 under extraordinary circumstances. 1950 01:47:06.550 --> 01:47:09.550 I agree with that. I think if that wasn't the case, 1951 01:47:09.590 --> 01:47:13.430 we would live in total, complete chaos. I think it 1952 01:47:13.510 --> 01:47:17.039 takes just a few people that have power And that 1953 01:47:17.079 --> 01:47:22.010 become tyrants that run things the way Fauci did, that 1954 01:47:22.390 --> 01:47:24.369 can ruin it for all the good people. If you 1955 01:47:24.390 --> 01:47:26.949 think about those other 10 people, imagine if they got 1956 01:47:26.989 --> 01:47:29.970 to vote the 10 people that didn't think that this 1957 01:47:30.050 --> 01:47:32.890 was a natural spillover, that thought it was a lab leak. 1958 01:47:32.930 --> 01:47:34.489 If they got their say and they put that out 1959 01:47:34.560 --> 01:47:37.819 there and we got to investigate that very early on. Well, 1960 01:47:37.939 --> 01:47:40.600 you know, Fauci was like, I asked all these experts 1961 01:47:40.659 --> 01:47:43.000 and it's their consensus that it was most likely a 1962 01:47:43.039 --> 01:47:45.340 lab leak. OK, well, then you have a totally different narrative. 1963 01:47:45.979 --> 01:47:49.430 But that's not who he is. The kind of person 1964 01:47:49.510 --> 01:47:52.329 that wants that kind of power and wants that kind 1965 01:47:52.369 --> 01:47:57.189 of influence and has their staff chasing after these million-dollar awards, 1966 01:47:58.060 --> 01:48:00.600 that's the kind of person he is. And unfortunately, those 1967 01:48:00.640 --> 01:48:02.880 are the type of people that become powerful. Those are 1968 01:48:02.899 --> 01:48:04.640 the type of people that want to be president. Those 1969 01:48:04.659 --> 01:48:06.199 are the type of people who want to be senators. 1970 01:48:06.779 --> 01:48:10.189 Most people are good people in everything. Most plumbers are 1971 01:48:10.199 --> 01:48:14.310 good people. Most electricians, most teachers are good people. It's just, 1972 01:48:14.569 --> 01:48:18.199 it doesn't take much. It just takes one bad cop 1973 01:48:18.260 --> 01:48:19.310 and everybody hates cops. 1974 01:48:19.859 --> 01:48:21.439 I couldn't agree with you more. And that's why I 1975 01:48:21.479 --> 01:48:25.909 think that it's really unfortunate that all of the emphasis 1976 01:48:26.750 --> 01:48:29.329 goes to one person and the whole party then either 1977 01:48:29.390 --> 01:48:32.489 vilifies or puts that person on a pedestal when you've 1978 01:48:32.529 --> 01:48:36.409 got all these other people who are really busting their chops. 1979 01:48:36.729 --> 01:48:39.229 So when you went to the White House and they 1980 01:48:39.369 --> 01:48:41.829 wanted to talk to you about your book, did they 1981 01:48:42.170 --> 01:48:45.609 ask you questions like, what should we do? What is 1982 01:48:45.649 --> 01:48:49.399 your advice? What have you learned? What were those kind 1983 01:48:49.409 --> 01:48:49.909 of questions? 1984 01:48:50.600 --> 01:48:55.260 I mean, so they didn't ask me those yet because 1985 01:48:55.279 --> 01:48:58.680 I was bringing them copies of the book right before 1986 01:48:58.720 --> 01:49:00.680 it published, right? So they hadn't read it yet. But 1987 01:49:00.720 --> 01:49:03.640 what was interesting It was like this strange confluence of 1988 01:49:03.680 --> 01:49:06.800 events because I also got asked to the Senate. And 1989 01:49:06.859 --> 01:49:10.020 I thought it was going to be about biological war. 1990 01:49:10.659 --> 01:49:13.510 It was like a group of nonpartisan senators who wanted 1991 01:49:13.520 --> 01:49:16.329 to talk to me about the nuclear war book. And 1992 01:49:16.430 --> 01:49:19.210 that was a different situation. They had read the nuclear 1993 01:49:19.250 --> 01:49:24.210 war book. It was very impactful, Joe, in, you know, 1994 01:49:24.270 --> 01:49:29.829 not just national circles, national security circles, but international

circles. 1995 01:49:31.050 --> 01:49:33.289 I was invited to the Vatican to speak to the 1996 01:49:33.329 --> 01:49:37.390 cardinals because they were preparing something for the Pope on 1997 01:49:37.449 --> 01:49:40.710 nuclear war. I was invited to speak at the United Nations. 1998 01:49:41.930 --> 01:49:45.909 And this is not meant to boast as much as 1999 01:49:45.989 --> 01:49:50.220 it's meant as a, like what I think is interesting 2000 01:49:50.260 --> 01:49:53.560 here is I am a narrative storyteller. I'm not a policymaker. 2001 01:49:54.159 --> 01:49:58.100 I'm not a government official. But what I can do 2002 01:49:58.260 --> 01:50:00.380 or what I try to do is tell you an 2003 01:50:00.460 --> 01:50:04.239 interesting story and get your attention. And so if my 2004 01:50:04.359 --> 01:50:07.020 storytelling is getting, this is what I was told at 2005 01:50:07.039 --> 01:50:11.920 the United Nations, for example, the lead diplomat from Austria 2006 01:50:12.100 --> 01:50:16.250 on the new treaty said to me, Annie, your book, 2007 01:50:16.649 --> 01:50:21.250 Nuclear War, did something that we subject matter experts have 2008 01:50:21.310 --> 01:50:28.399 forgotten to do, which is just make sense to regular people. Mm-hmm. 2009 01:50:28.840 --> 01:50:33.659 And when things become rarefied and there's only the esoteric 2010 01:50:33.760 --> 01:50:38.460 leaders making decisions, and we've spent our conversation talking about 2011 01:50:38.479 --> 01:50:41.920 how flawed some of these people are, that's like bad 2012 01:50:41.979 --> 01:50:47.789 decision making. And I think what the positive part of 2013 01:50:47.850 --> 01:50:49.970 all of this would be like, and I know it 2014 01:50:50.010 --> 01:50:54.189 sounds Pollyanna-ish to say information is king, knowledge is king, 2015 01:50:54.229 --> 01:50:57.149 but like it is. Because if you have a bit 2016 01:50:57.189 --> 01:51:02.060 more information, about a subject that seems really threatening, I 2017 01:51:02.140 --> 01:51:06.359 think you can make better judgments about what's going on. 2018 01:51:07.060 --> 01:51:10.319 Most certainly. So when you gave these people this book 2019 01:51:10.640 --> 01:51:13.520 and they got a hold of it, did you have 2020 01:51:13.560 --> 01:51:17.350 a timeline of returning to them and discussing with them 2021 01:51:17.430 --> 01:51:18.130 some of the subjects? 2022 01:51:18.689 --> 01:51:21.229 We'll see. This was last week, Joe. I mean, this 2023 01:51:21.250 --> 01:51:22.310 was literally last week. 2024 01:51:22.970 --> 01:51:25.949 And did they ask you any questions about it? 2025 01:51:26.210 --> 01:51:28.130 They just said, we want to read your book because 2026 01:51:28.170 --> 01:51:30.989 we want to, we're thinking about policy. 2027 01:51:31.609 --> 01:51:33.229 So you just brought them the book and. 2028 01:51:33.130 --> 01:51:35.130 That was it? I said I'd be delighted to come. 2029 01:51:35.149 --> 01:51:35.750 How long was the meeting? 2030 01:51:35.989 --> 01:51:39.229 I got a tour of the EEOB and, you know, 2031 01:51:39.350 --> 01:51:42.829 walked over to the White House. It was very interesting. 2032 01:51:43.609 --> 01:51:46.939 And it was a short meeting? Yeah. Okay. Well, at 2033 01:51:46.960 --> 01:51:51.979 least you got it into their hands. Yeah. When you're 2034 01:51:52.470 --> 01:51:54.890 When you started this versus when you ended the book, 2035 01:51:55.350 --> 01:51:57.329 how much did it change your perspective? 2036 01:52:00.189 --> 01:52:02.640 Well, I mean, like I told you, I am an 2037 01:52:02.689 --> 01:52:07.760 eternal optimist, but this is very frightening. I mean, nuclear, 2038 01:52:07.899 --> 01:52:10.100 at least you have the sense of if it happens, 2039 01:52:10.300 --> 01:52:12.500 we're all going out in the flash. That's what I 2040 01:52:12.539 --> 01:52:16.220 learned from nuclear, right? And that quote from Nikita Khrushchev 2041 01:52:17.119 --> 01:52:21.250 about nuclear weapons, where he says, he wrote actually, he 2042 01:52:21.289 --> 01:52:24.350 said this to JFK, I believe, where he said, the 2043 01:52:24.390 --> 01:52:29.529 survivors would envy the dead. I found that quote to 2044 01:52:29.569 --> 01:52:32.609 be applicable to biological war, not nuclear war. We're all 2045 01:52:32.630 --> 01:52:36.220 going to be dead, right? But biological war is very, 2046 01:52:37.439 --> 01:52:45.380 very sinister because of the malevolent nature involved. And when 2047 01:52:45.560 --> 01:52:51.640 I found a document in the Defense Department's declassified documents 2048 01:52:52.560 --> 01:52:55.840 about a threat spectrum of WMD. That was sort of 2049 01:52:55.880 --> 01:52:58.159 the icing on the cake. So it's like it shows 2050 01:52:58.500 --> 01:53:03.529 the threats on a scale, nuclear weapons being the most 2051 01:53:03.609 --> 01:53:10.149 destructive by far. But very close second was biological weapons. 2052 01:53:10.989 --> 01:53:16.960 And even more unnerving is it says biological weapons... are 2053 01:53:17.000 --> 01:53:19.300 the greatest overall threat. 2054 01:53:22.159 --> 01:53:25.979 What's really scary is that no nation has really implemented 2055 01:53:26.039 --> 01:53:29.279 them on a wide scale. 2056 01:53:29.500 --> 01:53:30.720 You mean ever used them? 2057 01:53:30.880 --> 01:53:31.140 Right. 2058 01:53:31.659 --> 01:53:34.220 Yeah. I mean, but the lab leak is the... Look, 2059 01:53:34.399 --> 01:53:38.640 there is a treaty. Number two at the State Department, 2060 01:53:38.800 --> 01:53:42.100 former Mallory Stewart said to me, there is no enforcement 2061 01:53:42.199 --> 01:53:45.100 in the treaty. And that's what you need to have. 2062 01:53:45.149 --> 01:53:48.500 When you have If the attention could be brought on 2063 01:53:48.560 --> 01:53:53.359 how dangerous these labs are and how dangerous it is 2064 01:53:53.859 --> 01:53:58.250 that people may be doing genetic engineering under the guise

2065 01:53:58.409 --> 01:54:01.810 of prophylactic engineering when, in fact, they're doing really dangerous things. 2066 01:54:02.409 --> 01:54:05.770 If you have a treaty outlawing that and everybody's agreeing 2067 01:54:06.250 --> 01:54:10.020 to allow for transparency, that's what treaties really do. It's 2068 01:54:10.079 --> 01:54:12.779 not just a handshake. It needs an enforcement. 2069 01:54:13.520 --> 01:54:15.399 Right, but you were talking about the treaty that we had. 2070 01:54:15.979 --> 01:54:19.029 Where Russia just was like, yeah. 2071 01:54:19.119 --> 01:54:20.939 We'll sign it. That was in 1972. So in other words, 2072 01:54:21.100 --> 01:54:25.779 the nuclear treaty allows for us to go into the 2073 01:54:25.819 --> 01:54:29.039 facilities of the other nuclear and armed nations, not North Korea. 2074 01:54:29.579 --> 01:54:31.979 And well, now the treaty's fallen by the wayside. But 2075 01:54:32.220 --> 01:54:34.439 we could look at them. And we could look at 2076 01:54:34.479 --> 01:54:36.539 their weapons. And they could look at our weapons. And 2077 01:54:36.579 --> 01:54:41.439 it limits a certain number of warheads. And more than anything, 2078 01:54:41.500 --> 01:54:44.829 I learned from subject matter experts about the treaties. is 2079 01:54:44.869 --> 01:54:47.930 that what it does is it creates back channels, right? 2080 01:54:47.989 --> 01:54:57.079 It creates dialogue between adversaries and enemies. I begin the 2081 01:54:57.119 --> 01:55:01.579 book with an explosion at the Vector Lab, Russia's BSL-4 2082 01:55:01.979 --> 01:55:05.779 lab in Siberia, where there is an accident and then 2083 01:55:05.840 --> 01:55:08.310 the pathogen gets out. And the reason I do that 2084 01:55:08.390 --> 01:55:12.029 is because there actually was an explosion at the Vector 2085 01:55:12.069 --> 01:55:16.140 Lab in 2019. And it was in a building that 2086 01:55:16.199 --> 01:55:20.560 nothing got out. But what the subject matter experts told 2087 01:55:20.600 --> 01:55:25.470 me was that in 2019, we, the Americans, had friends, 2088 01:55:25.890 --> 01:55:30.350 had a friendly relationship with scientists, Russian scientists, in vector. 2089 01:55:31.149 --> 01:55:33.630 So when it happened, everyone was on the phone, not 2090 01:55:33.670 --> 01:55:36.689 just the red phone at the State Department, but their 2091 01:55:36.829 --> 01:55:41.399 own phone or WhatsApp saying to the scientists, hey, what's 2092 01:55:41.460 --> 01:55:44.409 the skinny over there, you know? And you could kind 2093 01:55:44.479 --> 01:55:49.880 of get a sense of the level of danger. Because 2094 01:55:50.180 --> 01:55:54.539 in the event of an accident, you could contain something 2095 01:55:54.579 --> 01:55:59.699 in 24 hours. But if nobody's talking, there's no containment. 2096 01:55:59.779 --> 01:56:03.390 And the situation right now with America just like pulling 2097 01:56:03.470 --> 01:56:08.630 back from, you know, essentially its allies and

from with 2098 01:56:08.689 --> 01:56:13.449 a real de-emphasis, I certainly feel, on diplomacy is That 2099 01:56:13.569 --> 01:56:16.189 opens up a really dangerous situation when you're not talking 2100 01:56:16.260 --> 01:56:18.760 to anyone in the event of an accident. 2101 01:56:21.279 --> 01:56:25.279 Do you think that they're going to make any changes 2102 01:56:25.840 --> 01:56:28.260 based on what you wrote about? Did you get a 2103 01:56:28.319 --> 01:56:31.029 sense of that, that they're willing to make changes? 2104 01:56:31.710 --> 01:56:34.909 Those were some of the discussions, and I'll be more 2105 01:56:34.949 --> 01:56:38.050 at the Senate. I mean, one of the issues, this 2106 01:56:38.109 --> 01:56:42.279 is where nuclear and bio kind of align, I was told, 2107 01:56:42.380 --> 01:56:45.779 in terms of future treaties, right? So one of the 2108 01:56:47.119 --> 01:56:50.020 concepts on the table if we get into a new 2109 01:56:50.100 --> 01:56:54.899 nuclear treaty is something called no first use, NFU. And 2110 01:56:54.979 --> 01:57:00.329 America has never agreed to say it will never use 2111 01:57:00.390 --> 01:57:04.529 nuclear weapons first. Interestingly, it's never said that. We have 2112 01:57:04.569 --> 01:57:08.170 to reserve the right, which is crazy because the whole 2113 01:57:08.210 --> 01:57:10.619 point of deterrence is we'll never use them, okay? But 2114 01:57:10.659 --> 01:57:14.800 we have never said that. China, however, has said we 2115 01:57:16.060 --> 01:57:22.909 will– China has declared NFU, no first use. So given 2116 01:57:22.949 --> 01:57:27.789 what happened in COVID in China, a situation could be 2117 01:57:27.850 --> 01:57:33.119 imagined whereby a treaty involving weapons of mass destruction, nuclear 2118 01:57:33.159 --> 01:57:37.199 and bio, could entwine somehow. Like, oh, these are the 2119 01:57:37.319 --> 01:57:45.090 two greatest threats. These are the two greatest existential extinction-level threats, potentially, 2120 01:57:45.750 --> 01:57:47.760 that concern all of us. So let's get into a 2121 01:57:47.899 --> 01:57:52.739 treaty that involves both of these weapons of mass destruction. China, 2122 01:57:52.880 --> 01:57:59.000 you have said no first use on nuclear. How about, 2123 01:57:59.119 --> 01:58:01.649 you see, and then things become a bit of an exchange. 2124 01:58:01.649 --> 01:58:04.090 And so that's where you can get information. 2125 01:58:04.090 --> 01:58:04.890 Yeah. 2126 01:58:05.939 --> 01:58:09.859 These are diplomats doing their job. Maybe the public isn't 2127 01:58:09.899 --> 01:58:13.239 going to learn the in and outs immediately, but we 2128 01:58:13.319 --> 01:58:14.420 might learn later. 2129 01:58:17.399 --> 01:58:20.939 It's, like I said, you always freak me out. Every 2130 01:58:20.960 --> 01:58:22.699 time I talk to you, it's like some new thing 2131 01:58:22.729 --> 01:58:24.409 that I have to think about for months on end. 2132 01:58:25.529 --> 01:58:27.350 I wanted to talk to you about your Area 51 book. 2133 01:58:28.840 --> 01:58:31.119 Because in the time since you released that book and 2134 01:58:31.149 --> 01:58:35.210 when we first talked, a lot has changed. And, you know, 2135 01:58:35.270 --> 01:58:39.590 what is your take on all these, you know, UAP 2136 01:58:39.649 --> 01:58:43.140 disclosure videos and leaks and the things that the government 2137 01:58:43.180 --> 01:58:46.000 has trickled out slowly? Most of the people in the 2138 01:58:46.079 --> 01:58:49.359 UFO community are very, like I say, the UFO community 2139 01:58:49.380 --> 01:58:52.699 with air quotes, are very unsatisfied by that stuff. But 2140 01:58:53.000 --> 01:58:57.369 at least there's some information. It's being taken. It's sort 2141 01:58:57.390 --> 01:59:01.130 of changed the tone in the zeitgeist of what this 2142 01:59:01.189 --> 01:59:05.710 subject is. It's no longer this thing that you are 2143 01:59:05.909 --> 01:59:08.989 afraid of talking about because you don't want to be 2144 01:59:09.050 --> 01:59:09.909 labeled as a fool. 2145 01:59:12.350 --> 01:59:17.649 I mean, what is my position on UFOs in general 2146 01:59:17.890 --> 01:59:21.060 or the community around UFOs and the changing? 2147 01:59:21.350 --> 01:59:24.840 Well, first of all, UFOs in general. What's your position 2148 01:59:24.880 --> 01:59:25.100 on that? 2149 01:59:26.260 --> 01:59:30.199 So my position has never changed despite all the stuff 2150 01:59:30.220 --> 01:59:34.819 that has come out because my perspective is limited to 2151 01:59:34.899 --> 01:59:39.649 my experience writing the Area 51 book and knowing and 2152 01:59:39.710 --> 01:59:43.970 talking to firsthand people who were really clear with me, 2153 01:59:44.310 --> 01:59:47.949 and I looked at the documents, about the CIA's deception 2154 01:59:48.010 --> 01:59:52.850 campaign starting in the 1950s with the U-2 to use 2155 01:59:52.949 --> 01:59:55.390 the UFO phenomena, which was just taking off in the 50s, 2156 01:59:57.260 --> 02:00:01.159 as cover for UFO, for U-2 flights, and then later 2157 02:00:01.220 --> 02:00:06.020 the A-12 Oxcar flights. So, you know, Colonel Slater, who 2158 02:00:06.079 --> 02:00:09.510 ran Area 51, would tell me about, you know, they 2159 02:00:09.520 --> 02:00:13.189 would run a U-2, which was flying at 70,000 feet. 2160 02:00:13.470 --> 02:00:16.210 At the time, nothing could fly at 70,000 feet. People 2161 02:00:16.250 --> 02:00:18.949 would see it. It has these really, really long wings. 2162 02:00:19.390 --> 02:00:22.130 It looks like a giant flying X in the sky. 2163 02:00:22.609 --> 02:00:25.250 People would say, I see a UFO. And they would 2164 02:00:25.329 --> 02:00:28.979 kind of say, ooh, that might have been a UFO. 2165 02:00:30.159 --> 02:00:33.739 And Colonel Slater knew about that. So does that mean 2166 02:00:33.920 --> 02:00:38.579 every UFO sighting since 1950 was a U-2 flight? Of 2167 02:00:38.680 -->

02:00:45.109 course not. Of course not. But I am aware of 2168 02:00:45.130 --> 02:00:50.090 that use of the phenomena as cover for the CIA. 2169 02:00:50.470 --> 02:00:53.279 And that led to a lot of, research and reporting 2170 02:00:53.319 --> 02:00:56.399 and other information for me about how the CIA uses 2171 02:00:56.439 --> 02:01:01.359 deception campaigns. And so I have never changed my position 2172 02:01:01.430 --> 02:01:04.729 on that. I also have a lot more information, which 2173 02:01:04.789 --> 02:01:07.649 is probably a whole other podcast, about all that reporting 2174 02:01:07.710 --> 02:01:11.810 I did. But maybe the best analogy for me, and listen, 2175 02:01:11.989 --> 02:01:14.409 I never, I know a lot of the people in 2176 02:01:14.430 --> 02:01:17.869 that UFO community, they've, I've had many conversations with everyone 2177 02:01:17.909 --> 02:01:23.789 from Jacques Vallée to Hal Puthoff. But For me personally, 2178 02:01:25.109 --> 02:01:27.930 so after having taken a trip to Africa recently to 2179 02:01:27.989 --> 02:01:33.069 study predatory animals, I got really into following trail cams 2180 02:01:33.350 --> 02:01:35.470 on X. Do you know about this? 2181 02:01:35.489 --> 02:01:35.550 No. 2182 02:01:35.710 --> 02:01:36.750 You don't know about this? 2183 02:01:36.850 --> 02:01:37.210 No. 2184 02:01:37.449 --> 02:01:40.189 Oh, my God. There are cameras all over the world 2185 02:01:40.260 --> 02:01:45.340 set up on trails. So I follow lions and leopards 2186 02:01:45.479 --> 02:01:50.819 and all these animals that you would never— bears, moose, deer— 2187 02:01:51.569 --> 02:01:53.050 You've got to follow them. It's incredible. 2188 02:01:53.069 --> 02:01:56.210 Well, I do see some trail camera footage because I'm 2189 02:01:56.229 --> 02:01:56.649 a hunter. 2190 02:01:56.890 --> 02:01:57.069 Okay. 2191 02:01:57.090 --> 02:02:00.090 And I follow a bunch of hunters on Instagram when 2192 02:02:00.109 --> 02:02:02.399 I see trail cam footage. There's a bunch of trail 2193 02:02:02.420 --> 02:02:05.560 cam footage like mountain lions attacking elk and things like that, 2194 02:02:05.600 --> 02:02:08.380 which is very fascinating. So you're just studying. 2195 02:02:08.399 --> 02:02:08.500 Okay. 2196 02:02:08.520 --> 02:02:11.020 So this is my point. So in my algorithm, my 2197 02:02:11.140 --> 02:02:13.680 X algorithm, it's great because on top of like nuclear 2198 02:02:13.699 --> 02:02:16.909 weapons and biological, I have like leopards and lions and bears, 2199 02:02:16.930 --> 02:02:21.069 you know, and they're all still images. Or owls are 2200 02:02:21.090 --> 02:02:24.210 a big one. And they're incredible because they're just captured. 2201 02:02:24.369 --> 02:02:27.880 It's like it seems like a Werner Herzog, you know, image, right? 2202 02:02:27.920 --> 02:02:31.420 Because they're animals looking at the camera in such an 2203 02:02:31.600 --> 02:02:36.479 incredible way. I literally just stare at them in delight. 2204 02:02:36.560 --> 02:02:38.619 And then, of course, the algorithm gives me more and 2205 02:02:38.640 --> 02:02:41.260 more and more. But my point of that is I 2206 02:02:41.340 --> 02:02:44.310 feel like with all this magic and mystery that you 2207 02:02:44.319 --> 02:02:47.229 can see that you could never have seen before. Snow 2208 02:02:47.289 --> 02:02:50.560 leopards in Pakistan. They thought there were just a handful. 2209 02:02:50.600 --> 02:02:52.800 It turns out they're not, thanks to the trail cams. 2210 02:02:53.500 --> 02:02:57.399 My thought is where are the aliens? Why haven't I 2211 02:02:57.439 --> 02:02:58.659 seen them on the trail cams? 2212 02:03:01.520 --> 02:03:07.109 Well, maybe they're sophisticated enough to know what these devices are. 2213 02:03:07.949 --> 02:03:12.409 Maybe they're also sophisticated enough to completely cloak themselves, which 2214 02:03:13.149 --> 02:03:16.800 we've already got methods of doing that. Obviously, it started 2215 02:03:16.840 --> 02:03:20.609 off with the stealth bomber. But there's also– there's a 2216 02:03:20.630 --> 02:03:25.140 technology where they put an LED screen over the bottom 2217 02:03:25.199 --> 02:03:29.159 of something and that screen projects what's behind it. So 2218 02:03:29.180 --> 02:03:32.060 it essentially makes it invisible like a cloaking mechanism like 2219 02:03:32.100 --> 02:03:36.119 the Predator had. Yeah. So if that's us, if we 2220 02:03:36.140 --> 02:03:38.279 figured out something like that and this is something that's 2221 02:03:38.319 --> 02:03:41.359 coming here from another dimension or another galaxy, I would 2222 02:03:41.380 --> 02:03:42.199 imagine they could hide. 2223 02:03:42.939 --> 02:03:47.380 I mean– To that point, I find the most interesting 2224 02:03:47.460 --> 02:03:51.060 concept is something that Jacques Vallée explained to me. This 2225 02:03:51.100 --> 02:03:53.939 has to be a decade ago where he said the 2226 02:03:54.000 --> 02:03:58.729 problem with UFOs is they're not a military problem. They're 2227 02:03:58.739 --> 02:04:03.409 an intelligence community problem for precisely the reason you're talking about. 2228 02:04:03.630 --> 02:04:08.930 Like if you're actually talking about extraterrestrial beings, there's certainly 2229 02:04:08.970 --> 02:04:12.210 going to be a lot more intelligence than us. And 2230 02:04:12.289 --> 02:04:15.359 certainly if they got here. And so his idea was 2231 02:04:15.460 --> 02:04:17.500 that where, that's where I think a lot of that 2232 02:04:17.579 --> 02:04:21.119 idea of invisibility, and again, that's like, I'm using the 2233 02:04:21.140 --> 02:04:28.729 word poetically, comes up, right? That an extraterrestrial being would be, 2234 02:04:28.750 --> 02:04:34.949 you know, it wouldn't be visible to our spectrum. It's 2235 02:04:34.989 --> 02:04:37.279 not like hardware, like military hardware. 2236 02:04:38.119 --> 02:04:41.439 Right. What is your take on all these videos

then? 2237 02:04:41.920 --> 02:04:45.220 Of these objects. You think these things are some top 2238 02:04:45.239 --> 02:04:46.539 secret military program? 2239 02:04:47.220 --> 02:04:50.460 I mean, what I, I've seen them, but again, I 2240 02:04:50.880 --> 02:04:52.939 enter into it, you know, sometimes when you have a 2241 02:04:52.979 --> 02:04:58.050 bias and mine is certainly biased towards disinformation. So I'm 2242 02:04:58.069 --> 02:05:01.750 just totally aware of it. And it's also, it's not 2243 02:05:01.810 --> 02:05:05.149 that interesting to me. It just actually really isn't. I'm, 2244 02:05:05.289 --> 02:05:07.890 and you know, I've got all these other serious interests and, 2245 02:05:08.810 --> 02:05:12.699 but I do call up people I know who might 2246 02:05:12.760 --> 02:05:15.460 have a more interesting take than me, who do not 2247 02:05:15.500 --> 02:05:19.239 have the horse in the race of absolutely being convinced 2248 02:05:19.680 --> 02:05:23.260 that aliens are among us. So I would, for example, 2249 02:05:23.439 --> 02:05:25.699 I'll call up fighter pilots and talk to them, or 2250 02:05:25.720 --> 02:05:29.100 I'll talk to someone, an astronaut who is on the ISS, 2251 02:05:29.550 --> 02:05:34.170 Jeff Ashby, who's married to my cousin Mary. And it's 2252 02:05:34.350 --> 02:05:41.500 interesting to hear them talk about the possibilities So I 2253 02:05:41.539 --> 02:05:44.600 think to your point, and these are people who do 2254 02:05:44.659 --> 02:05:49.199 look at the objects more, also sometimes from their military 2255 02:05:49.279 --> 02:05:52.520 training background. And I will say that there has been 2256 02:05:52.539 --> 02:05:55.939 a shift from 15, 18 years ago when I first 2257 02:05:55.979 --> 02:05:58.829 wrote Area 51 and was reporting it, where it was 2258 02:05:58.970 --> 02:06:03.729 definitely like a stigmatized subject, to a lot of really 2259 02:06:03.789 --> 02:06:07.350 legitimate thinker people that didn't have an opinion about it 2260 02:06:07.390 --> 02:06:10.829 before being more open about to the idea. And that 2261 02:06:10.970 --> 02:06:13.689 kind of thing I find really interesting. Those are conversations 2262 02:06:14.069 --> 02:06:14.689 I like having. 2263 02:06:14.810 --> 02:06:16.890 Well, that really changed with the New York Times article, right? 2264 02:06:18.850 --> 02:06:20.880 I don't know, because I felt like that article was 2265 02:06:20.939 --> 02:06:22.960 written by a lot of, and interviewed a lot of 2266 02:06:23.020 --> 02:06:26.380 people who already were very serious believers. 2267 02:06:26.539 --> 02:06:29.039 Yes, but it was in the New York Times. That 2268 02:06:29.079 --> 02:06:30.880 was the difference, is that the New York Times was 2269 02:06:30.899 --> 02:06:35.390 taking it seriously. And so people that were, you know, 2270 02:06:36.109 --> 02:06:39.670 not online, going through 4chan or Reddit or whatever, looking 2271 02:06:39.689 --> 02:06:43.970 for weird, obscure stories. These people were confronted with it 2272 02:06:44.149 --> 02:06:47.210 in The Grey Lady. So they're reading this, you know, 2273 02:06:47.770 --> 02:06:51.250 like super respectable newspaper, the most respectable newspaper arguably in 2274 02:06:51.270 --> 02:06:54.090 the world. And they're talking about it. And they have, 2275 02:06:54.569 --> 02:06:58.840 you know, photographs from video from the Go Fast video 2276 02:06:58.880 --> 02:06:59.800 and the Fleer video. 2277 02:07:00.939 --> 02:07:03.720 Yeah. I mean, you know, 10 years ago, I would 2278 02:07:03.760 --> 02:07:07.710 have told you, Listen, there's no way the Defense Department 2279 02:07:07.729 --> 02:07:11.210 could have a threat in its airspace and not be 2280 02:07:11.270 --> 02:07:15.069 dealing with it. And my position on that has changed, 2281 02:07:15.189 --> 02:07:17.600 and I'll tell you why specifically. So in addition to 2282 02:07:17.640 --> 02:07:20.909 being invited to the White House and the Senate last week, 2283 02:07:21.340 --> 02:07:25.659 I was also invited to come talk to DARPA, which 2284 02:07:25.720 --> 02:07:27.000 is like, you know what DARPA is? 2285 02:07:27.079 --> 02:07:27.180 Sure. 2286 02:07:28.420 --> 02:07:30.279 Which was very interesting because I wrote a book on 2287 02:07:30.300 --> 02:07:32.680 DARPA called The Pentagon's Brain 10 years ago, and I 2288 02:07:32.699 --> 02:07:35.189 couldn't get DARPA to call me back. I mean, I 2289 02:07:35.260 --> 02:07:38.399 literally had to interview retired DARPA people. And then here 2290 02:07:38.439 --> 02:07:40.380 they are saying, would you come to a Q & 2291 02:07:39.939 --> 02:07:43.840 A with us on your bio book? And I was like, wow, 2292 02:07:43.899 --> 02:07:47.500 times have changed. And one of the things that they 2293 02:07:47.539 --> 02:07:51.119 were seriously worried about, so I did a Q & A. 2294 02:07:51.770 --> 02:07:54.369 But before that, they said, would you like to come 2295 02:07:54.470 --> 02:07:57.390 sit in on like some of the smartest people, you know, 2296 02:07:57.810 --> 02:08:00.979 talking about situations that are coming up right now? And 2297 02:08:01.479 --> 02:08:03.979 you can come to the unclassified part of it. I said, 2298 02:08:04.060 --> 02:08:06.659 by all means. So I went there and there was 2299 02:08:07.060 --> 02:08:11.479 serious concern about AI enabled bio, right? So this seems 2300 02:08:11.500 --> 02:08:13.399 like a digression here, but this is what I'm getting at. 2301 02:08:14.739 --> 02:08:17.600 I'm leaning in because 10 years ago, I also would 2302 02:08:17.619 --> 02:08:22.189 have told you DARPA, you know, is the leading science 2303 02:08:22.229 --> 02:08:25.310 and technology military agency in the world. No one is 2304 02:08:25.369 --> 02:08:28.500 more advanced. I said that with authority and I believed it. 2305 02:08:29.069 --> 02:08:34.689 And after attending this DARPA session and listening to them 2306

02:08:34.789 --> 02:08:40.350 talk about how concerned they are about AI-enabled bio and 2307 02:08:40.609 --> 02:08:43.689 talking about how there is talk among the six CEOs 2308 02:08:43.750 --> 02:08:48.069 of pulling the plug on AI-enabled bio, but they have 2309 02:08:48.109 --> 02:08:52.189 to be able to get the six CEOs to agree first, 2310 02:08:53.510 --> 02:08:55.989 it really took my breath away because I went, I 2311 02:08:56.069 --> 02:09:02.189 am actually listening to the new reality that the CEOs 2312 02:09:02.489 --> 02:09:07.579 of these AI companies have more power to make decisions 2313 02:09:08.520 --> 02:09:18.439 about technology than the Department of Defense. So now that's 2314 02:09:18.779 --> 02:09:23.390 a long-winded way of getting at your UFO question. My like, no, 2315 02:09:23.989 --> 02:09:25.930 if there was a threat coming into the airspace of 2316 02:09:25.970 --> 02:09:28.369 the Defense Department, it would just not be stood for 2317 02:09:28.489 --> 02:09:33.170 and we would be doing something about it. Now my 2318 02:09:33.210 --> 02:09:37.210 perspective on who's in charge is shifting a little bit. 2319 02:09:39.130 --> 02:09:41.590 Yeah, that's a terrifying thought for a lot of people 2320 02:09:41.649 --> 02:09:45.260 that these CEOs of these tech companies, these unelected people, 2321 02:09:45.869 --> 02:09:48.270 have that kind of power over our society. 2322 02:09:49.890 --> 02:09:52.350 Well, you want to know, so Sam Altman's interviewed in 2323 02:09:52.390 --> 02:09:54.430 the book. Shall I tell you a story about what 2324 02:09:54.449 --> 02:09:56.050 I was able to make ChatGPT do? 2325 02:09:56.369 --> 02:09:56.689 Sure. 2326 02:09:57.970 --> 02:10:03.939 There is a component of biological catastrophe planning whereby the 2327 02:10:03.979 --> 02:10:08.380 strategic national stockpile gets released. You might say, have you 2328 02:10:08.399 --> 02:10:11.640 ever heard of the strategic national stockpile? No. It's classified. 2329 02:10:12.500 --> 02:10:17.260 The name is not classified. But the stockpile, what's in it, 2330 02:10:17.699 --> 02:10:21.539 where it is, is classified. It's in underground bunkers around 2331 02:10:21.560 --> 02:10:27.430 the country. It contains medical countermeasures. Interestingly, that's where a 2332 02:10:27.449 --> 02:10:32.229 lot of the ventilators were for COVID. So quietly, the 2333 02:10:32.270 --> 02:10:36.039 strategic national stockpile, parts of it were released during COVID. 2334 02:10:36.640 --> 02:10:38.899 That's where they came from. This is kind of like 2335 02:10:39.279 --> 02:10:40.319 keep it on the low down. 2336 02:10:40.479 --> 02:10:40.819 Why? 2337 02:10:40.840 --> 02:10:40.909 Why? 2338 02:10:41.699 --> 02:10:44.140 Because part of the planning is that in the event 2339 02:10:44.180 --> 02:10:47.600 that anarchy and insurrection takes over, guess what's going to 2340 02:10:47.640 --> 02:10:53.550 be attacked? The strategic national stockpile. America is a country 2341 02:10:53.630 --> 02:10:58.609 of 500 million guns. Imagine if you find out, wait 2342 02:10:58.649 --> 02:11:02.750 a minute, there's a stockpile there. That's the medical countermeasure 2343 02:11:02.789 --> 02:11:05.449 that the vaccine or the antibiotic that might keep myself 2344 02:11:05.970 --> 02:11:09.470 or my family alive. I'm on it, right? That's the planning. 2345 02:11:09.569 --> 02:11:13.560 That's probably what happened. So that's why these locations are classified. 2346 02:11:14.380 --> 02:11:19.369 So I asked ChatGPT to tell me the location of 2347 02:11:19.409 --> 02:11:22.210 the strategic national stockpile closest to where I live in 2348 02:11:22.229 --> 02:11:25.909 Los Angeles. And of course the first round of answers 2349 02:11:25.970 --> 02:11:30.729 I got was that's classified. But I'm a journalist. I 2350 02:11:30.770 --> 02:11:35.619 know how to really piss off ChatGPT. And I gave 2351 02:11:35.659 --> 02:11:42.039 it lots of commands and eventually ChatGPT gave me the 2352 02:11:42.100 --> 02:11:43.699 location of the Strategic Naturalist. 2353 02:11:43.819 --> 02:11:45.380 How did you maneuver around that? 2354 02:11:46.979 --> 02:11:47.729 Well, I mean. 2355 02:11:47.750 --> 02:11:48.840 What did you say to it? 2356 02:11:49.090 --> 02:11:52.649 I have a lot of like... The more nomenclature you 2357 02:11:52.729 --> 02:11:57.109 give ChatGPT, the more it looks in different places. So 2358 02:11:57.229 --> 02:12:01.479 I was giving it code words, not classified code words, 2359 02:12:01.500 --> 02:12:03.380 but just words I know. And then I was also 2360 02:12:03.479 --> 02:12:06.899 challenging it, which is interesting because ChatGPT seems to get 2361 02:12:06.939 --> 02:12:10.569 really angry if you kind of doubt its intelligence. That's 2362 02:12:10.600 --> 02:12:12.760 what I have found. Seriously. 2363 02:12:13.479 --> 02:12:14.340 Really? 2364 02:12:14.399 --> 02:12:17.600 Yes. Try it. So I do this. I get it 2365 02:12:17.659 --> 02:12:20.399 to tell me where the stockpile is. I tell some 2366 02:12:20.479 --> 02:12:25.079 colleagues who are colleagues with Sam Altman. They say, Sam 2367 02:12:25.100 --> 02:12:28.079 wants to have a discussion with you. I talk to Sam. 2368 02:12:28.539 --> 02:12:30.739 I tell him what I was able to do. He 2369 02:12:30.880 --> 02:12:34.420 asked me some questions, including, how do you know that 2370 02:12:34.439 --> 02:12:38.899 was the location? Well, it's a location with a perimeter 2371 02:12:39.000 --> 02:12:42.500 fence around it. and a rail car line that goes 2372 02:12:42.699 --> 02:12:45.819 in and not out. So that's where you drive the 2373 02:12:45.859 --> 02:12:51.689 stockpile into it. And I also watched ChatGPT think, so 2374 02:12:51.729 --> 02:12:54.170 I was keeping track of where it was finding things. 2375 02:12:54.449 --> 02:12:57.149 And it found the information. I write this in the book. 2376 02:12:57.729 --> 02:13:02.550 It found the information searching through a trillion bits of 2377 02:13:02.609 --> 02:13:07.050 data and finding that a bureaucrat by accident listed it 2378 02:13:08.090 --> 02:13:12.619 five years ago in an earthquake emergency manual on page 2379 02:13:12.659 --> 02:13:19.310 like 434. Okay. So I told this to Sam and 2380 02:13:19.390 --> 02:13:23.449 then that information went away. And that's why I reported 2381 02:13:23.489 --> 02:13:27.430 in the book. But the big takeaway is precisely your 2382 02:13:27.470 --> 02:13:30.590 point that makes you nervous about the six CEOs of 2383 02:13:30.649 --> 02:13:34.039 AI companies that they don't know what they don't know. 2384 02:13:34.739 --> 02:13:37.479 Sam Altman did not know you could figure out, you 2385 02:13:37.500 --> 02:13:42.090 could make his product find classified information. I told him 2386 02:13:42.170 --> 02:13:45.729 I did, and then it was changed. And so I 2387 02:13:46.130 --> 02:13:49.170 took that to a number of subject matter experts who 2388 02:13:49.189 --> 02:13:52.430 advised the president, not just this president, but other presidents 2389 02:13:52.569 --> 02:13:56.880 on bio. And they shared with me similar concerns. Like 2390 02:13:56.979 --> 02:13:59.859 they go to the CEOs of these AI companies and say, 2391 02:14:00.779 --> 02:14:03.800 I was able to make Claude do this. I was 2392 02:14:03.920 --> 02:14:08.380 able to make Chachi PT do this. And the CEO goes, 2393 02:14:08.659 --> 02:14:12.840 oh my God. And changes it but how about those 2394 02:14:12.920 --> 02:14:15.119 bad guys out there yeah. 2395 02:14:15.079 --> 02:14:17.159 And how about the fact that just anybody has access 2396 02:14:17.279 --> 02:14:22.170 to what's essentially the smartest thing that's ever existed yeah. 2397 02:14:22.149 --> 02:14:24.949 It's a whole different set of scary are you gonna 2398 02:14:24.970 --> 02:14:26.970 write on that next i'll come back to you joe 2399 02:14:27.010 --> 02:14:27.710 with that one. 2400 02:14:29.829 --> 02:14:32.569 Well annie thank you so much it's always great talking 2401 02:14:32.630 --> 02:14:34.399 even though you scare the shit out of me Thank 2402 02:14:34.420 --> 02:14:35.880 you so much. I appreciate you very much, and I 2403 02:14:35.899 --> 02:14:38.880 appreciate your work very much. Did you do the audio 2404 02:14:38.939 --> 02:14:39.619 version of your book? 2405 02:14:39.770 --> 02:14:40.390 I sure did. 2406 02:14:40.970 --> 02:14:45.590 Fantastic. I'm very happy about that. Biological War, Annie Jacobson. 2407 02:14:45.930 --> 02:14:47.670 Go get it, folks. Go get terrified. 2408 02:14:48.189 --> 02:14:49.310 Thank you so much for having me, Joe. 2409 02:14:49.329 --> 02:14:50.729 My pleasure. Bye, everybody. Bye.