Full Transcript for Burn The Haystack Dating Method: An Interview with Jennie Young

that was gonna be my next question is how did you come up with burn the haystack method? 00:04:49.040 --> 00:04:56.079 Like, what brought you into this sphere of using rhetoric to decode these dating profiles? 00:04:56.480 --> 00:04:59.600 Yeah, I mean, it was kind of a a journey. 00:04:59.600 --> 00:05:27.279 Um, it initially it was, I was just experiencing what all women experience, I think, the first time we download a dating app, which which is this confus, this like mixture of confusion and frustration and anger and and and just like asking myself, clearly there's something wrong with me because none of the kind of first of all, even like connecting with people was difficult. 00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:27.920 Yeah. 00:05:28.240 --> 00:05:37.279 The vast majority of profiles I saw were somewhere between terrifying and hilarious, but not in a good way. 00:05:37.279 --> 00:05:45.439 Um the first several tries, I just quit completely, never went out on a date. 00:05:45.439 --> 00:06:00.000 At one point, and this was years and years and years ago, I started like a secret blog where I was just creating humor content from the dating apps, which people do all the time now, but this was like where that was really a thing. 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:06.959 So it didn't occur to me to share it on social media, but I would like publish these guys' profiles and have captioning content. 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:18.160 I did this whole series at the end of the year called uh serial killers on the solstice, when I like collected the ones who most appeared to be serial killers. 00:06:18.160 --> 00:06:20.480 And so like I just kept turning it into a joke. 00:06:20.480 --> 00:06:26.560 But then eventually I got to the point where I was I really genuinely did want to meet someone and still it was just not working. 00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:32.399 And I I remember having a moment where because I had convinced myself it was me, I was the problem. 00:06:32.399 --> 00:06:35.040 Like clearly, this is just how life is now. 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:40.720 If you want to date men, you have to send them naked pictures of yourself before you've met. 00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:43.680 Now, I didn't do that, but like that seemed to be the explanation. 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:44.639 Right, the norm. 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:44.879 Yeah. 00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:47.279 Yeah, I'm not sure I can make it in this world. 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:57.040 And then I started thinking, if I'm the problem here, like if I'm really the problem, I should be having trouble navigating other aspects of my life, right? 00:06:57.040 --> 00:07:01.199 Like I should be having a hard time communicating with my colleagues or my students or my family. 00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:06.639 And I wasn't like it was just this one very narrow, you know, instance of life. 00:07:06.639 --> 00:07:08.639 And so then I got mad. 00:07:08.639 --> 00:07:15.680 And I decided I was gonna try to start like gaming the dating apps just for myself. 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:19.920 And I started changing everything about the way I did things. 00:07:19.920 --> 00:07:24.079 I changed the way my profile was written, I changed who I was willing to talk to. 00:07:24.079 --> 00:07:34.240 Um, I started paying a lot more attention and looking at men's words through a critical eye instead of like gaslighting myself about it. 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:36.000 And it changed everything. 00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:40.319 And I've written about this extensively and it's out there, so I won't belabor it. 00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:52.959 But I realized I was on to something and that it was something I could share with other women and that it tied in with my academic uh interests, which are applied rhetoric and critical discourse analysis. 00:07:52.959 --> 00:07:59.759 And again, I won't eat up your podcast time with the explanation of those things because they're all in the book, but it was all those things coming together. 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:05.920 My own experience, wanting to share it as a public scholarship project and bringing an academic lens to it. 00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:08.720 And then the community just exploded. 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:11.439 Organically, I didn't like I didn't know what I was doing. 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:14.480 I didn't promote posts and have my money to do anything like that. 00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:18.879 It was just that there was like a need because online dating is horrible. 00:08:19.120 --> 00:08:19.759 Yeah, yeah. 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:31.360 And and I love that you just identified this and you were like, okay, there's a space for this, there's a space where women want to learn how to find a good guy because it's so hard. 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:37.039 And so going back to this idea of burn the haystack, will you describe what that came from? 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:38.879 Like how you came up with that name. 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:39.840 Yeah. 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:47.759 That's one of those like life, you know how certain life moments just like crystallize for you and you can play it like almost like a movie in your head. 00:08:47.759 --> 00:08:57.600 I was, I was sitting, I this was like at one of my very low points, even though I was like having some success with the little like tricks I was using, I was still very frustrated. 00:08:57.600 --> 00:09:00.080 And I was, it was, I think, late at night. 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:04.159 I was just sitting at my desk in my bedroom by myself. 00:09:04.159 --> 00:09:09.600 And out of frustration, I Googled, how do you find a needle in a haystack? 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:12.399 Because that's kind of like the proverbial saying, right? 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:12.720 Right. 00:09:12.720 --> 00:09:18.240 And I started wondering like, how do you do that in real life, like a physical haystack and a physical needle? 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:25.759 And the answer is you burn the haystack to the ground, and then whatever's left will be the needles

because metal doesn't burn. 00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:33.519 And as soon as I saw that, it was like I literally got chills because I'm I'm like, no, that's that's actually it. 00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:42.960 It's the opposite of what women are being told to do, which is pick through every little piece of hay and consider it and be like, you look like a terrible piece of hay, but maybe you're a shiny needle. 00:09:42.960 --> 00:09:46.159 And right, and you know, we hear this over and over again. 00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:47.039 It's a numbers game. 00:09:47.039 --> 00:09:50.799 The more men you meet, the better your chances are, the more dates you go out on. 00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:51.840 That's bananas. 00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:53.600 You want to do the opposite of that. 00:09:53.600 --> 00:09:55.039 You want to give nobody a chance. 00:09:55.039 --> 00:09:57.200 Don't give it out. 00:09:57.200 --> 00:10:14.720 So instead of entering, you know, like entering your hinge or whatever and like looking for a needle, your only goal is to get rid of the haystack, like focus on that, and then whatever's left will emerge as a you know, a potential needle that you should at least consider. 00:10:14.720 --> 00:10:18.080 So it it was really that night, and I thought that's it. 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:22.559 Now I didn't know obviously I didn't know any of this was gonna happen, right? 00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:31.600 But um I knew that in terms of like a metaphorical construction, that that was it and that it was something people could understand. 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:31.919 Yeah. 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:33.759 It just kind of went from there. 00:10:34.159 --> 00:10:34.399 Yeah. 00:10:34.399 --> 00:10:40.879 Well, one of my clients introduced me to you, and she had said, like, you gotta read this book, it's so smart. 00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:52.480 And I I when I checked it out, I was like, okay, that just the description of how you came up with this idea in the first place of like, I read, you know, how do you find the needle in the haystack? 00:10:52.480 --> 00:11:04.639 And uh, that understanding, it was just like I I mean, obviously, my experience with understanding where it came from was probably not as profound as when you had that, but I I I literally was like mind blown. 00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:06.159 That's so smart to me. 00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:16.480 It makes so much sense to like whittle down and really this is the way to weed out all of the duds out there, which I love part of your title. 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:17.840 All get get rid of them all. 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:21.600 Let's just like you know, there's kind of an implied. 00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:24.159 We spent a lot of time on that subtitle. 00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:30.159 And there, I mean, there's definitely an implied jab at men where like make room for men who matter. 00:11:30.159 --> 00:11:38.480 The implication of that being if we don't make room for you, you don't matter, which like it sounds kind of

mean, but like that's sort of my thing. 00:11:38.480 --> 00:11:43.840 But but also like I don't mean they don't matter as human beings, I'm you know, on bubble. 00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:44.399 Right. 00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:47.679 And they don't matter in terms of like where your attention goes, right? 00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:57.279 Like our attention doesn't like you're looking for a possible like new partner in your life or someone to like spend a considerable amount of your time with, right? 00:11:57.279 --> 00:11:59.200 And we don't want those people anymore. 00:11:59.200 --> 00:12:12.159 It seems like many of the women that are listening to my podcast are have come out of like a 20-year plus marriage where they spent a lot of time of their own attention on someone who wasn't reciprocal in that way. 00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:12.799 Yeah. 00:12:13.120 --> 00:12:14.720 We don't want to repeat, right? 00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:15.840 Right, right. 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:35.679 So and I would say for for your audience, for for anyone who is coming out of one of those kind of marriages, before you even like think about online dating, it's really interesting to start looking at the rhetorical patterns and applying them backwards. 00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:43.759 Like apply them to your former partner, because I guarantee if you're married to a man, you're gonna find a bunch of them. 00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:53.519 And that gives you like a much more authentic touchstone of understanding of how those patterns work, and you won't end up in that situation again. 00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:58.879 Oh, I love that you just said that because I was actually, I was coaching a client the other day. 00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:06.480 She was having a conversation with her ex-husband, who they co-parent right now, and it was just that though them together, like their kids weren't with them. 00:13:06.480 --> 00:13:10.559 And she came back and she was telling me about this conversation that she had and how he showed up. 00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:21.200 And I had just finished reading, I think a couple of the rhetorical patterns that we're gonna talk about in in a few minutes, but um, and it immediately stood out to me as disciplinary directive. 00:13:21.200 --> 00:13:26.399 And I was like, I am quite positive that he, your ex-husband is showing up in this way. 00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:29.440 And I just kind of explained briefly like what that meant and where it came from. 00:13:29.440 --> 00:13:32.240 She's she's got a partner as well now that she's been divorced. 00:13:32.240 --> 00:13:42.480 And I said, I think this book might be like really useful to you in terms of looking at how your ex-husband shows up when he speaks with you and when you have these conversations. 00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:44.159 So I love that you pointed that out. 00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:52.480 That that's the place to start is not even on the dating apps, but just understanding the rhetorical patterns that you point out in this book. 00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:53.200 Yeah. 00:13:53.200 --> 00:13:53.759 Yeah. 00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:54.879 So smart. 00:13:54.879 --> 00:14:08.080 One thing that you talk about in this book that I really love because it's something that I teach my clients and the people who listen to this podcast as well, is getting out of your emotions, getting out of your body, and letting your brain do the thinking. 00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:15.039 Um, that kind of goes contrary to what society has told us in terms of dating, of like, we need to feel chemistry and we need to feel this thing. 00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:23.120 And if we don't, then it probably doesn't mean that we're attracted to them or that we're gonna have anything like solid in terms of foundation of a relationship. 00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:26.799 Excuse me, can you speak more on that idea? 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:27.679 Sure. 00:14:27.679 --> 00:14:28.320 You're right. 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:39.279 I mean, and especially any of us who grew up in the like 80s and 90s, rom-com era, which were you know, just talk full of toxic rhetorical patterns that we somehow equated to love. 00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:50.480 Um, you know, there's so much research now that has kind of demystified chemistry and and what it actually is. 00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:59.600 And on a neurological level, it seems to be much more closely tied to fear and anxiety than to love. 00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:05.840 And that's not to say that that chemistry is necessarily negative. 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:28.879 I mean, you might meet someone with whom you have wonderful chemistry and they turn out to be a great person, but it's just as likely, if not more likely, especially with those like real high chemistry initial connections, frequently turn out to be toxic down the line because what your body and your like sort of neurochemical makeup is registering is fear. 00:15:29.840 --> 00:15:31.120 That's so interesting. 00:15:31.120 --> 00:15:37.679 Yeah, something that I talk to or that I teach on this podcast a lot about is recognizing when your nervous system is heightened. 00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:42.159 And that to me, what you just described, kind of ties back to that same idea. 00:15:42.159 --> 00:15:53.919 And if you don't like know the signs about that in your own body, I think it it might get confused in this same like it's chemistry and we just are connected in this way. 00:15:54.559 --> 00:16:05.840 Well, the biggest error I see, or maybe not biggest, but like most frequent error I see in people's thinking is that if they don't feel initial immediate chemistry, that it's not there. 00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:10.320 Some people will go out on one date and be like, he's a great person. 00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:11.759 There was no chemistry. 00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:13.200 And I'm like, how would you know? 00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:15.120 Like you don't know him yet. 00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:15.679 Yeah. 00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:21.679 And and

more sustainable, healthy chemistry tends to build over time. 00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:24.080 And that's not a guarantee that it's going to be, right? 00:16:24.080 --> 00:16:28.639 Like you might meet a great person who with whom you really don't have chemistry and never will. 00:16:28.639 --> 00:16:30.320 That's a possibility too. 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:33.039 But you can't determine that after one date. 00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:35.360 And I can't believe how much pushback I get to that. 00:16:35.360 --> 00:16:42.159 Like, whenever I say anything like that, there's you know, invariably several comments right away that say, I get it. 00:16:42.159 --> 00:16:44.480 I've read the research, but I know myself. 00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:47.440 And that's that's not true for me. 00:16:47.440 --> 00:17:01.600 And I keep thinking, well, then you're choosing to not believe women because a bunch of women, like almost, I don't know, maybe 80% of Burn Haystack's success stories start out and say something like, and it's true of me too, with my partner. 00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:05.119 I didn't feel any chemistry at first, but I liked him. 00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:08.160 I liked being with him, I respected him as a human being. 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:10.400 We seem to have shared values. 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:12.480 Those things are more important. 00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:20.799 Like, that's actually like a better barometer of what's going to happen down the line than the initial, like, oh, we just connected in this way. 00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:23.119 And it was like a snap instant kind of a thing. 00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:23.759 Yeah. 00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:24.640 Yeah. 00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:25.039 Okay. 00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:25.839 I love that. 00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:35.440 So for any woman kind of going into this to have that mindset of I may not feel like chemistry connection right off the bat, and that's okay. 00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:40.880 It doesn't mean something has gone wrong or this is a bad like match to begin with. 00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:47.440 It might mean you're not sexually attracted to strangers, which is actually pretty healthy. 00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:48.000 Yeah. 00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:49.440 Which is actually not a bad thing. 00:17:50.799 --> 00:17:53.519 Like okay. 00:17:53.519 --> 00:18:01.279 So in the book, you talk about 10 rules to for women to kind of follow as they get on the dating apps. 00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:06.559 And I there were two that I want to kind of expand on if that works for you. 00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:09.279 The first one is block to burn. 00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:12.799 Will you explain that in more detail and why it's important? 00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:13.839 Sure. 00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:18.880 So I mean, number one, of course, I have to like stay cohesive within my controlling metaphor. 00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:21.440 I can't do that because I'm an English teacher. 00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:33.200 Um but on a more practical level, all

the dating apps will recycle matches to you if you just swipe left or X choose the X or whatever it is on that platform. 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:40.880 If you don't, if if you've decided you don't want to connect with someone, you have to actually block that profile. 00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:45.759 And there is a question over whether the apps are even like honoring that all the time. 00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:46.319 Okay. 00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:47.920 But most I think most of them do. 00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:49.279 It's your best bet anyway. 00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:54.960 So for one thing, it just you know saves you time and like having to look at the same people again. 00:18:54.960 --> 00:19:03.359 But it's also emotionally and psychologically protective because a lot of men don't react well at all to being told no, even if it's a really nice no. 00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:06.160 And you, you know, you just don't need to absorb that. 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:09.359 You don't need to absorb abuse from strangers on the internet. 00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:10.799 So you need to block them. 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:13.039 And and I use block liberally. 00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:22.319 I mean, yeah, yeah, go ahead and block them on hinge, but also block them in your phone and block them on Facebook and block them on LinkedIn, and you know, just shut that wall down. 00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:24.319 You don't need to entertain that person. 00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:25.759 No, I love this idea. 00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:30.880 I've I've taken this um idea just in general on my social media. 00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:43.680 My social media has been growing, and I find that on the more like the videos that do better and have lots of comments, and I get these terrible, awful comments from typically men. 00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:45.839 There's sometimes women, but mostly it's men. 00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:46.319 Right. 00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:55.680 I have just given myself permission to block any of them that I do not agree with, don't want to hear from, don't ever want to see their face or comment on any of my things ever again. 00:19:55.680 --> 00:19:57.119 I'm just like, it's totally fine. 00:19:57.119 --> 00:19:59.279 You can block this person and it's not a problem. 00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:00.720 I think that's wise. 00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:02.240 Yeah, agreed. 00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:13.759 And then the next, the um, the next rule that you kind of laid out that I wanted to talk about is you you say treat dating like a job search. 00:20:13.759 --> 00:20:16.480 Can you kind of just talk more about that? 00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:17.200 Yeah. 00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:24.960 So the the apps are very much engineered to give people this notion of immediacy, almost more like Uber Eats, right? 00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:30.559 Like, oh, I see this, I want this thing to show up right now at my apartment in 20 minutes. 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:42.880 But that's not really a good way to find like a long-term partner where so if you can flip that mode, if if you were searching for a professional job, you would take a lot of time to build your resume. 00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:53.920 You'd proofread it, you'd make sure it was, you know, a perfect representation, you'd send it out selectively to places you actually wanted to work, not places you didn't want to work. 00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:54.240 Right. 00:20:54.240 --> 00:21:03.839 And then when you heard back from people, you would only take interviews that seemed like it offered you whatever happiness, satisfaction, monetary reward. 00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:15.440 And I think if we can apply all those mindsets to the dating apps, definitely, and I should say this: if your goal is to meet as many people as possible, don't use burnt haystack. 00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:17.599 Like that is the method for that. 00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:22.799 It's specifically geared toward finding long-term monogamous partnerships. 00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:30.319 And if that's your goal, you're better off to think of it in this almost like business-like professional academic mindset initially. 00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:34.480 Yeah, no, I actually think that's really logical and smart. 00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:42.480 Because again, going back to this idea, you came out of this probably very emotionally volatile, maybe even sometimes relationship. 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:46.799 Let's look at it from a different perspective, maybe in a way that you haven't tried before. 00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:47.279 Right. 00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:48.559 So I love that. 00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:49.759 So yeah. 00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:59.680 In terms of like jumping into this idea of red flag rhetorical patterns, which is what most of the book focuses on, which I love. 00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:02.640 Love, you kind of lay them out, you call them cheat codes. 00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:06.559 You highlight 33 of these red flag patterns. 00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:09.359 Um, and we're gonna go over a couple of them in just a minute. 00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:13.599 Um, you use real examples from men's profiles on dating apps. 00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:17.920 And I know you have a Facebook group, you haven't really talked about it on here, so I wanted to ask you about that. 00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:26.240 But are you continually adding to these 33, or do you feel like most of these profiles just fall under the 33 that you've highlighted in the book? 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:35.519 I I feel most of them, like like even today in in the Facebook group, most of the examples people share fall into one of those 33. 00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:37.440 We have added a couple more. 00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:39.839 I can't remember what we're I can't remember. 00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:42.880 I have said like I think we added linked up. 00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:44.559 I don't that one's not in the book, is it? 00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:45.200 Linked up. 00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:49.839 It does it doesn't sound

familiar, um, but there are 33, and I can't remember exactly. 00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:50.720 Yeah, I know. 00:22:50.720 --> 00:22:51.599 Yeah, I can't either. 00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:53.039 I think we I think that was a new one. 00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:58.480 So LinkedIn is like the men who are trying to use LinkedIn to hook up because they're doing way too much. 00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:06.880 Um so we've added a couple, but yeah, they're most I I still feel like the vast majority of them fit into the 33 in the book. 00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:07.519 Okay. 00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:18.480 I want to jump into the book in just a second and go into some of those rhetorical patterns, but tell my audience about your Facebook group and kind of how that came about and like what it is, because it's kind of a phenomenon, right? 00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:19.039 Yeah. 00:23:19.039 --> 00:23:23.119 I mean no one's more shocked than me. 00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:55.279 So when I started the Facebook group, which was February of 2023, I think, um I it's a private group attached to my personal Facebook account because all I wanted to do was bring together like a group of women to start like hashing out ideas and refining the method because I decided I wanted it to be a public scholarship project, partly for academic interest, but also because I thought like very selfishly it'll be less terrible for me, like five in this whole mission. 00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:59.039 And I had written one article about burned haystack at that point. 00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:02.079 It was in uh the British version of the independent. 00:24:02.079 --> 00:24:15.359 And I I shared that article in a women's writers group on Facebook, and if and a few people came over from there, but it was like a small group in this private Facebook group, and it was fun. 00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:21.119 Like we just all go in there and share these experiences and ideas and you know, the yucking it up all day long. 00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:29.119 And that grew to about a thousand people over the first several months, which is pretty small for a Facebook group. 00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:32.640 And I did it like I wasn't promoting it anywhere or anything. 00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:40.799 Um, and then I wrote an article for Huff Post that came out in at the end of August of that same year. 00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:50.640 And it it was and I talk about this in the book, but it was it was published the same day I started a new job as an associate dean. 00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:52.480 And so I was like focused on that. 00:24:52.480 --> 00:25:07.039 And I knew the article had come out, and I, you know, I realized it would get some traffic, but I I really miss I underestimated the uh digital uh power of uh BuzzFeed, which is who owns HuffPost. 00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:20.160 And but I I I drove to work, like the article came up, and I drove to work, and by the time I got to campus, like things had exploded in a in a way I couldn't keep up with.

00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:23.200 And then it it just kind of never stopped. 00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:26.799 And now, I mean it, you know, it hit a peak and then it would kind of go like this. 00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:32.079 But yeah, there's 290,000 some women in that. 00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:33.039 Amazing. 00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:33.839 Yeah. 00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:34.720 Amazing. 00:25:34.960 --> 00:25:41.920 And it's been it's turned into you know a a real like a social feminist movement. 00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:49.920 And there's other channels now, but like it it does all kind of go back to that group, and that's sort of still where like you feel the sisterhood the most. 00:25:50.319 --> 00:26:05.039 Yes, I was just gonna say that because I I am in the group and my audience knows I have a partner, but I first of all I love that you let women who are like me in the group who aren't looking who aren't looking for partners, but want to learn, want to be supportive. 00:26:05.039 --> 00:26:14.079 And yeah, I just I do feel that sisterhood, even just being kind of a lurker in the group who I love reading the posts, I love reading the comments. 00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:17.359 Everyone is so I mean, most people, I should say. 00:26:17.359 --> 00:26:23.440 I have seen you, you know, do a few things where I had to pick kick that person out, but that doesn't seem to be the norm. 00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:30.000 It seems to be like most women are just so supportive and like you know, people will post, what do you think about this profile? 00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:31.359 What are you seeing that I'm missing? 00:26:31.359 --> 00:26:32.400 Those kinds of things. 00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:54.079 And everyone is just so supportive and lovely in the comments, yeah, which feels good, I think, when you are in this space of trying to date, trying to find someone who you match with that you know you want to bring into your life, and to have other people who like follow you on that journey and are supporting you through that, I think is so important. 00:26:54.079 --> 00:27:00.000 It's such a huge part of like coming out of a divorce and going through this next chapter of your life. 00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:02.640 I think it's so important to have other women in your corner. 00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:07.759 So yeah, kudos to you for the Facebook group, kudos to you for this book. 00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:12.079 I just find it so amazing and it's it's great what you're doing. 00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:17.359 It it is a lovely community, like and and also viciously smart and funny. 00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:18.799 Yeah, absolutely. 00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:21.440 Yeah, I mean, I I'm grateful every day. 00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:26.079 I can't imagine like take me, the the writer academic out of it. 00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:30.720 Like, I just can't imagine my life without being part of this community of women. 00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:32.160 It's really changed everything. 00:27:32.559 --> 00:27:33.200 That's amazing. 00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:34.160 I love that. 00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:39.200 Okay, so let's jump into some of these rhetorical patterns that you have kind of identified. 00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:46.880 I want to talk about some of the more like obvious but semi-ex even dangerous sounding ones to be on the lookout for. 00:27:46.880 --> 00:27:55.279 And then just for specifically my audience, there were a few that I want to talk about in a minute that I think might fly under the radar for women who are coming out of a divorce. 00:27:55.279 --> 00:28:01.519 Um, so we'll talk about the more kind of like let's be on the very lookout for these because they can be kind of dangerous, guys. 00:28:01.519 --> 00:28:02.799 Disciplinary directive. 00:28:02.799 --> 00:28:06.559 I I alluded to it earlier, but can you explain more about what that is? 00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:09.519 We we see that one more than any other pattern. 00:28:09.519 --> 00:28:18.960 Like that there's a lot of real life examples in the book, and there were a lot that we just didn't have room for, like it, which is sad, like that there were that many examples. 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:25.279 But you know, anytime a man that you don't know, I mean, or any man, but we're talking about the dating app. 00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:34.319 So if a man that you don't know is assuming authority over you in any way, it you need you need to block him. 00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:37.039 Like it's just going to get worse from there. 00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:46.240 And what we've looked at over time is that even in the most like low-key displays of this pattern, things tend to go south. 00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:48.960 So if we talk a lot about the LETS problem. 00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:53.039 So a lot of these men will be like, Hey, you look fun. 00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:55.759 Let's grab a copy and get to know each other. 00:28:55.759 --> 00:28:58.319 That sounds innocuous, but it's not. 00:28:58.319 --> 00:29:04.079 It's still disgrammatically and rhetorically, it's still disciplinary directive pattern. 00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:08.799 And that tends to get more nefarious and more toxic and more dangerous down the line. 00:29:08.799 --> 00:29:11.920 Because he could have, first of all, that's an assumption, right? 00:29:12.160 --> 00:29:12.640 Right. 00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:16.720 He could have said, I really enjoyed reading your profile. 00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:18.880 Would you be interested in getting coffee with me? 00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:19.279 Right. 00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:20.480 A different man. 00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:21.759 Those are two different men. 00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:25.119 And people get caught up in this, oh, people don't think before they speak. 00:29:25.119 --> 00:29:25.519 Right. 00:29:25.519 --> 00:29:26.000 That's true. 00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:26.480 They don't. 00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:31.279 And it doesn't matter because their language reveals their underlying belief system. 00:29:31.279 -->

00:29:37.440 That's the whole critical discourse analysis, which is the methodology I use, is so powerful. 00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:39.440 And it's, you know, I didn't make this up. 00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:44.880 This is like a well-tested and and you know, very old method, actually. 00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:54.720 That that it yeah, I guess its central thesis is that people reveal truths to you without having any idea that they're doing it. 00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:56.640 And that's what those they're revealing. 00:29:56.640 --> 00:30:00.480 Now, the a lot of men's apps are are way more toxic than that. 00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:06.319 You know, they say things like, if you don't look like your pictures when you show up, you're buying drinks until you do. 00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:09.519 Like they write that over and over again in their gross bananas. 00:30:09.519 --> 00:30:10.240 Yeah, gross. 00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:19.200 But like it even in between, you know, there's a large spectrum in between that and let's grab coffee, and then things far worse than the one I just shared. 00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:21.279 And it's all just disciplinary directive. 00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:23.279 Like, I just don't think women should engage with it. 00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:25.359 Yeah, I I agree 100%. 00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:30.079 Um, the next one I want to talk about, which I I absolutely love the title. 00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:34.000 You probably could even know which one I'm gonna say, but were you at the Capitol on January 6th? 00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:49.279 Like, can you just describe what type of guy this is and what they what you associate with these type of men who would have something in their profile that would like identify they were at January 6th or some something of that type? 00:30:49.839 --> 00:30:50.240 Sure. 00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:58.799 I mean, the the number one thing that's indicating is alignment with conservative American politics. 00:30:58.799 --> 00:31:04.079 And this is something I've not been willing to be flexible on. 00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:23.200 And I know it's the reason I don't get asked to a lot of podcasts, that I don't get asked to speak at corporations, because I have like the entire time said this methodology, this group is feminist, politically liberal, politically progressive, zero, like room for wavering on that. 00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:34.400 Because I just don't think in America in 2026, if you're aligning with conservative politics, you are by definition misogynistic and toxic. 00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:39.839 So any of these guys who are leading with, and but usually they'll say they're moderate, they're not. 00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:41.680 If they say they're moderate, they're conservative. 00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:44.240 Unless they identify as liberal or progressive, they're not. 00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:47.519 Uh steer clear of the um libertarians as well. 00:31:47.519 --> 00:31:49.119 That usually also trends. 00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:50.799 Is

a clue, right? 00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:51.440 Yeah. 00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:56.799 I mean, so and yeah, the the were you at the Capitol on January 6th? 00:31:56.799 --> 00:32:04.720 That pattern tends it almost to be comical, where these guys go on and on about like protecting their loved ones from outside forces and they're ready to fight. 00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:06.400 And you're like, who are you fighting for? 00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:10.079 You're like a 45-year-old guy who lives in the suburbs. 00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:17.200 So, you know, like this is sort of like made up in their mind, this notion of themselves as you know, soldiers or something. 00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:20.720 And and this is all red-pilled manosphere nonsense. 00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:24.480 But yes, number one, it's toxic, and number two, it's stupid. 00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:33.279 Like you you don't want to anyone who's getting sucked into the manosphere is just not very smart, not very smart. 00:32:33.279 --> 00:32:40.160 And there's a lot of research that like it's not just my opinion, like you just don't want to date someone who's not very smart. 00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:45.359 Yes, no, I love, I love, I love the political stance because I totally agree. 00:32:45.359 --> 00:33:04.880 I think that there is this idea that, like, well, I I'm I'm sure I could find someone, he's not gonna be misogynistic, but the more you understand about them and the way they think, and the the way, you know, their brain has been, I don't know, has developed experience through their life. 00:33:04.880 --> 00:33:07.680 Yeah, it just I I agree. 00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:18.079 I just don't think that it's possible to find someone who's more centrist or more right who it doesn't have misogynistic tendencies like underlying everything. 00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:19.519 Yeah, not right now. 00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:26.240 I think there was a time in America where that might not have been as true as it is right now, but you know, we're talking about right now. 00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:27.759 So Right, exactly. 00:33:27.759 --> 00:33:37.200 Okay, and then the last one that I think women who are going into the dating apps should really be on the lookout is kind of goes along with the same idea of looking for a trad wife. 00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:44.480 Can you kind of explain some of the code words that are used when in these profiles that these men are using? 00:33:44.799 --> 00:33:49.039 Yeah, I I mean traditional values is is one for sure. 00:33:49.039 --> 00:33:55.680 Christ-centered marriage, equally yoked, Proverbs 31, woman. 00:33:55.680 --> 00:34:09.199 Um, anybody who starts going on about uh, you know, you can't have children with other men, or you know, I'm gonna live off the land and homestead and I want someone to homeschool our children. 00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:19.360 I I mean, if it sounds like it's from 1850, uh then you probably don't want to partner up with it because and and there's been Jessica Valenti. 00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:20.400 Do you follow her at all? 00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:21.280 Yep. 00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:30.159 So she she made this viral reel recently on Instagram that says if trad wifery is so great, where are the 45-year-olds? 00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:30.960 Oh, I saw this. 00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:31.199 Yeah. 00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:35.519 Because they're all 21 and hot, you know, a lot of them don't even have kids. 00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:40.880 So if this truly is the best thing for women, how does it look down the line? 00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:47.440 And the reality is there's all kinds of forms right now of those 45-year-old trad wives who are saying it ruined my life. 00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:52.800 I have no money, my psyche is destroyed, I'm abused and battered. 00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:53.920 Like, get out now. 00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:56.480 That's what the 45-year-old trad wives are saying. 00:34:56.719 --> 00:34:57.519 Yeah, yeah. 00:34:57.519 --> 00:35:11.360 And they're coming out of these marriages where they probably don't have a credit history, they probably don't didn't have a job for 20 years, you know, have no prospects in that in the financial area, they didn't go to school, like all of these things. 00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:19.440 And let's not get I have no idea if like men older men are looking for a 45-year-old trad wife, but it's I can't say it's not possible, right? 00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:22.320 So these are just things to be looking out for. 00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:31.119 If this is not the kind of life that you want to live, probably look for these like code words that right, even like like family values, right? 00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:34.480 That sounds uh nice. 00:35:34.480 --> 00:35:37.280 I'd look deeper if I heard those words. 00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:38.239 Yeah, for sure. 00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:59.199 Okay, so the ones that I want to talk about next, like I said, are I think gonna be really um they I think they might fly under the radar, especially for women who are coming out of a divorce, because these things on the surface might look good in a man's profile. 00:35:59.199 --> 00:36:01.679 The first one I want to talk about is my kids come first. 00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:11.920 Like I think to a woman coming out of divorce who has kids, they would want, they're looking for a partner who like thinks that their kids are important, right? 00:36:11.920 --> 00:36:20.480 And so can you kind of explain that one just a little bit deeper so that these women know what they're looking for? 00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:24.320 So yeah, this is a complex one. 00:36:24.320 --> 00:36:25.039 Yeah, okay. 00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:31.679 So the problem with my kids come first is is that it's not communicating what you think it's communicating. 00:36:31.679 --> 00:36:38.559 It him saying my kids come first is not a communication of how much his kids mean to you. 00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:50.239 It's a it's a boundary that he's laying out

for women he hasn't even met yet, where he's saying, You're never going to come first and also don't expect much from me. 00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:54.559 You can't make any demands on me because I'm saying up front, my kids come first. 00:36:54.559 --> 00:36:58.079 The problem with saying that is that it doesn't need to be said. 00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:01.119 Like, of course, your kids come first, everybody's kids come first. 00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:04.000 That's literally the parental contract, right? 00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:06.239 Like that should be the underlying assumption. 00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:09.119 So if someone's saying it, you have to question why. 00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:11.760 And they're saying it defensively. 00:37:11.760 --> 00:37:18.320 And and once I started talking about this pattern, women came out of the woodwork saying, Oh my God, yeah. 00:37:18.320 --> 00:37:28.079 I was impressed that he said that until I realized that was just his way of sort of controlling my expectations and to meet. 00:37:28.079 --> 00:37:30.480 So it's yeah, and I and I agree with that. 00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:30.960 Yeah. 00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:31.519 Right. 00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:39.599 That I love yes, the pointing out that hierarchy thing, I think, is really important because again, I think you you might read a profile and be like, oh my gosh, that's so sweet. 00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:41.440 His kids come first, that's great. 00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:45.440 So what what should women be women be looking for instead? 00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:47.440 Can you give a couple of examples? 00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:49.840 If you have any off the top of your head. 00:37:50.239 --> 00:37:52.639 Well, I mean, you can't necessarily tell that. 00:37:52.639 --> 00:38:02.880 The problem is you can't tell at the profile stage how someone what kind of relationship someone actually has with his kids because these things can be created to look way better than they are. 00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:09.280 But um, you know, as you're getting to know someone, pay attention to how he talks about his kids. 00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:38.880 See if it looks like they reach out to him when they, you know, want help and advice, or uh it's it's hard to do this hypothetically because you know, there's such a myriad of ways with children, but the and you know, it's age-dependent too, but you you want to look for authentic displays of healthy parenting rather than their self-labeled designation about what kind of parent they are. 00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:48.559 The other problem with that is if if I say to someone, listen, my kids come first, I'm already assuming that they want to spend more time with me than I want to spend with them. 00:38:48.559 --> 00:38:50.159 That's probably right. 00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:52.000 Like that's egomaniacal. 00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:52.480 Right. 00:38:53.440 --> 00:38:57.039 And most of these guys are saying this to women they haven't met at all yet. 00:38:57.039 --> 00:39:03.840 So at this point, they're assuming that all women are going to want more of their time than they're willing to give. 00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:08.239 Like that alone, if you take the parenting issue out of it, that alone is a problem. 00:39:08.239 --> 00:39:13.280 Like that's a huge red flag about how that guy conceives of himself. 00:39:13.599 --> 00:39:13.760 Yeah. 00:39:13.760 --> 00:39:20.480 And I so I think just going into it, keeping this one in mind of okay, is this something that I need to pay attention to? 00:39:20.480 --> 00:39:23.679 And what is there like, is there something underlying in this? 00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:25.920 Yeah, don't take that at face value. 00:39:26.239 --> 00:39:26.559 Right. 00:39:26.800 --> 00:39:32.880 There's a long discussion of that in the book with with more examples that are escaping me right now. 00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:33.519 No, I don't know. 00:39:33.519 --> 00:39:44.239 But you really want to, if you're especially if you're a single parent on the dating apps, like you are going to run into that and you need to understand how it manifests, or you're gonna end up wasting a lot of time. 00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:45.039 Yeah. 00:39:45.039 --> 00:39:45.679 Okay. 00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:49.760 The next one I want to talk about is six flags or red flags. 00:39:49.760 --> 00:39:57.599 And I think this is important for women who, again, coming out of a divorce, maybe even in their marriage, it was like an emotional roller coaster. 00:39:57.599 --> 00:39:59.199 We don't want to get back into that. 00:39:59.199 --> 00:40:06.079 So can you just give a little like example or just definition of what you mean by six flags or red flags? 00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:07.119 Yeah. 00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:17.039 So the the six flags, I mean, for people who don't know, I'm not sure if you might have like this is an American thing, but it's an amusement park with roller coasters. 00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:35.679 Um the there's a lot of men on the dating apps who see who seem to be communicating that their entire lives are spent like jumping over things on motorcycles and climbing Mount Everest and skydiving and trophy hunting and you know, rock climbing or whatever it is. 00:40:35.679 --> 00:40:41.440 You might want to interrogate that before you enter into it. 00:40:41.440 --> 00:40:46.000 And and that's not to say, you know, like people can have all those hobbies, and that's fine. 00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:49.840 And if you're a rock climber who wants to meet a rock climber, maybe that's a match made in heaven. 00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:59.840 But you do want to think about any sort of extremist display, because a lot of these guys have such a need for constant adrenaline. 00:40:59.840 --> 00:41:01.920 They're like adrenaline junkies, right? 00:41:01.920 --> 00:41:15.280 That long and and they might be perfectly beautiful human beings, but probably long-term monogamy that involves like going to Costco and paying the property taxes

just might not be their thing, you know. 00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:16.239 Right. 00:41:16.239 --> 00:41:25.840 And you you describe something in this rhetorical pattern in the book where you say you can like pay attention to can I take a breath? 00:41:25.840 --> 00:41:27.280 Are my senses bombarded? 00:41:27.280 --> 00:41:29.440 Is my nervous system out of alignment constantly? 00:41:29.440 --> 00:41:37.920 These are things that I teach women to pay attention to in their just regular everyday life, in terms of like if they get a text from their ex or something like that. 00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:47.280 So I think if you're noticing these things just on the dating apps or if you meet up with this person and you start to notice how your body is reacting, yeah, it's something to pay attention to. 00:41:47.519 --> 00:41:48.400 Yes, for sure. 00:41:48.719 --> 00:41:53.280 Do I want to be living in this state for the rest of this relationship? 00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:55.920 Because if not, that's something to question. 00:41:56.159 --> 00:41:57.360 Yeah, for sure. 00:41:57.679 --> 00:41:57.920 Okay. 00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:04.800 The next one that I think looks good on the surface, possibly, is the men who who write, they are peace seekers. 00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:08.800 Like on the surface, women coming out of chaos are like, I also am looking for peace. 00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:10.719 This is something that I want as well. 00:42:10.880 --> 00:42:11.280 Yeah, yeah. 00:42:11.519 --> 00:42:12.159 This could be great. 00:42:12.159 --> 00:42:17.119 So can you describe a little bit more about what these peace seekers are actually looking for or saying? 00:42:17.440 --> 00:42:25.679 Yeah, I mean, you do have to kind of look at that one in context, but a lot of them will phrase it and say, I'm looking for a woman to be my peace. 00:42:25.679 --> 00:42:27.440 That's a problem. 00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:35.360 Because they're signaling that they are kind of chaotic because they need a woman to come in and settle everything down. 00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:44.320 This frequently aligns with looking for a trad wife, with red flags, um, with were you at the Capitol in January? 00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:59.280 So a lot of these toxic patriarchal norms have like cast women into the role of peacemaker, which again sounds good, maybe if you don't interrogate what that actually means, right? 00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:02.320 Which is like a blank value, right? 00:43:02.320 --> 00:43:11.039 So, like instead of conceiving of women as equal, autonomous, you know, three-dimensional human beings, right? 00:43:11.039 --> 00:43:17.679 They see women as sort of this like void of space and activity to absorb them. 00:43:17.679 --> 00:43:20.000 It's very objectifying. 00:43:20.320 --> 00:43:20.639 Yeah. 00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:22.480 Yes, definitely something to look out for. 00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:27.840 And I love the way you described that as you're not actual an actual real person in a relationship

like this. 00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:31.599 You're just there to kind of support them in whatever they can do. 00:43:32.559 --> 00:43:33.760 Really, honestly. 00:43:33.760 --> 00:43:34.159 Yeah. 00:43:34.400 --> 00:43:34.880 Right. 00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:40.719 And then the last one I wanted to talk about was um maybe that was the last no, there it is. 00:43:40.719 --> 00:43:42.159 Um, the final piece of the puzzle. 00:43:42.159 --> 00:43:44.239 And it kind of goes along with some of these other ideas. 00:43:44.239 --> 00:43:48.400 But I think a woman could see this in a profile and be like, cute. 00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:51.280 Like he just wants me to like fit into his great life. 00:43:51.280 --> 00:43:55.280 This sounds this could on the surface sound great, right? 00:43:55.280 --> 00:43:59.679 So can you talk about why it's worthwhile paying attention to this one? 00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:00.480 Yeah. 00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:14.639 I mean, they make it sound great because they say things like, I've got a great job, I've got a great family, I own a boat, I'm financially secure, I love to travel, I'm just looking for that special woman to be the final piece of the puzzle. 00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:19.360 They frequently use that exact language, although it's not necessarily uh to satisfy the pattern. 00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:24.960 But um that doesn't make room for anything in the woman's life. 00:44:25.280 --> 00:44:25.519 Right. 00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:52.000 Like and that also to me reveals a similar conception of women as what we were just talking about, with the, you know, woman as like holding place for peace or whatever it is, where um you know it's sort of like an active and passive construction where the woman is passive, empty, dark, waiting to be filled by this active, vibrant light. 00:44:52.000 --> 00:45:01.360 I mean, in literature, I I talk about it in terms of the sun and the moon, where like the sun is its light and heat and fire and power, the moon reflects that light. 00:45:01.360 --> 00:45:07.280 Um, and in in literature, like men are always associated with the sun, women are always associated with the moon. 00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:12.400 This has just been something that's thematically true throughout American literature and British literature. 00:45:12.400 --> 00:45:15.440 But um, yeah, I would keep an eye out for it. 00:45:15.440 --> 00:45:22.719 And you know, it's it's not impossible that that there's a woman out there that that's exactly what she wants, right? 00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:24.320 Right who says, you know what? 00:45:24.320 --> 00:45:30.400 I don't have any family, I don't have a ton of friends or hobbies, I'm not career oriented. 00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:36.320 I would love to be welcomed into this guy's life and taken, you know, sailing around the world into Paris. 00:45:36.320 --> 00:45:37.679 You know, then so be it. 00:45:37.679 --> 00:45:46.239 Like that I don't necessarily have a problem with that, but I just want women

to be really clear-eyed about what they're potentially signing up for. 00:45:46.559 --> 00:45:47.599 Yeah, absolutely. 00:45:47.599 --> 00:46:07.599 And I think that's something that you talk about um in the book that I kind of want to talk about a little bit more is this idea of you say something I I can't remember specifically, like I think it's more toward the end of the book, but you talk about how a woman's intuition, like we're already recognizing when something is off typically. 00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:11.599 We just maybe don't have the words to put to it, which I think I agree with. 00:46:11.599 --> 00:46:26.639 Like, I teach my women uh all the time, not not my women, but the women who listen to this podcast about like learning to listen to their intuition, learning to lean into that, because it truly is a guide for each individual person and their life and what is best and right for them. 00:46:26.639 --> 00:46:43.199 So, can you just talk a little bit more about that idea of like how rhetorical patterning and these kind of rules that you lay out help to like guide your own personal intuition in terms of each individual person? 00:46:43.599 --> 00:46:44.079 Yeah. 00:46:44.079 --> 00:46:56.239 I so I think what burnt haystack does more than anything is slow down the intuition process in a way that affirms it logically. 00:46:56.239 --> 00:47:01.039 And I want to quote one of the group members, and I'm sorry, I can't remember her name right now. 00:47:01.039 --> 00:47:08.639 She's a therapist and she wrote a piece about using burnt haystack in her practice, which a lot of therapists are doing right now because of the patterning. 00:47:08.639 --> 00:47:13.360 And she said, and I think I'm gonna get this right word for word, because I really loved it. 00:47:13.360 --> 00:47:20.320 She said, women's intuition is not illogical, it's just faster than logic. 00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:23.039 And that's that's right. 00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:24.880 And that's I love that, right? 00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:26.559 That's like a beautiful way to stay that. 00:47:26.559 --> 00:47:33.039 So I think what Burnt Haystack and other methods do is just break it down. 00:47:33.039 --> 00:47:37.199 So they so like something you feel immediately is probably right. 00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:48.159 But if you can't explain to yourself why, then you might not trust it, especially when there's a bunch of dating coaches out on Instagram telling you to grant grace or whatever nonsense they're saying. 00:47:48.159 --> 00:47:58.800 Um it allows you to, you know, have almost an academic explanation for yourself rooted in logic that gives you more confidence in your own intuition. 00:47:58.800 --> 00:47:59.920 And then you can act on it. 00:47:59.920 --> 00:48:03.360 It becomes much more easy to act on it when you have the reasoning. 00:48:03.360 --> 00:48:05.360 I love that so much. 00:48:05.599 --> 00:48:09.119 Okay, so we've talked a ton about red flags, which I think is so important. 00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:12.800 We've talked about how it like aligns with your intuition and all these great things. 00:48:12.800 --> 00:48:17.679 Are there any like women might be going, okay, so there's like no hope now, right? 00:48:17.679 --> 00:48:20.960 Like you have used this, you have a partner now. 00:48:20.960 --> 00:48:25.199 I know there are lots of women in the Facebook group who have also been using this and have partners. 00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:31.679 Are there any green flags that women can be looking for that you could like spout off things to be looking for? 00:48:31.679 --> 00:48:44.719 But also, can you just give hope to women out there that it is it is possible to find love after divorce and later in life using the these these kind of cheat codes? 00:48:45.199 --> 00:48:45.679 Sure. 00:48:45.679 --> 00:48:50.639 Um so the number one green flag is an absence of red flags. 00:48:50.639 --> 00:48:59.920 You don't need to be looking for profiles that blow you away or even that entertain you or you know appeal to you in some identifiable way. 00:48:59.920 --> 00:49:02.880 You want to start with an absence of red flags. 00:49:02.880 --> 00:49:04.960 Um, that's the initial green flag. 00:49:04.960 --> 00:49:11.199 There is actually a checklist in the in the book of what green flag behavior looks like. 00:49:11.199 --> 00:49:13.039 And you know, it's nothing surprising. 00:49:13.039 --> 00:49:30.079 It looks like clear and consistent communication, it looks like respect, it looks like thoughtfulness, it looks like curiosity, men being genuinely curious about you instead of just sitting there waiting for you to ask them the next question as though they're being interviewed on a podcast. 00:49:30.079 --> 00:49:49.119 Um and and like to be fair, the there are very like the percentage of men who would make good partners is less than the percentage of women who are already good partners. 00:49:49.119 --> 00:49:49.599 Right. 00:49:49.599 --> 00:49:50.719 It's just true. 00:49:50.719 --> 00:49:54.960 And that's why a lot of women are just opting out and and quite happily in a lot of cases. 00:49:54.960 --> 00:49:59.519 I know a lot of divorced women who are like, I actually like think I'm good. 00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:00.400 This is better. 00:50:00.400 --> 00:50:04.639 I have a lot of friends, I have hobbies, I like my shop, I love having my own place. 00:50:04.639 --> 00:50:13.679 Um, but if you do want to meet someone, they are out there, and you just have to have the set of tools to find them. 00:50:13.679 --> 00:50:21.199 When I when I I had paused my own dating from like the first two, two and a half years of burnt haystack. 00:50:21.199 --> 00:50:22.000 So I just didn't have time. 00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:26.159 So I was trying to do burnt haystack and working full time and then I was writing the book. 00:50:26.159 --> 00:50:37.199 Um, but when I did when I did go back on the apps, I did not do so with like some fervent belief

that I was going to fall in love. 00:50:37.199 --> 00:50:45.599 Like, for one thing, I'm just I I'm frequently accused of being anti-romantic, which is funny to me because I'm like, yeah, like I'm proudly anti-romantic. 00:50:45.599 --> 00:50:49.760 Like you can't tell me by saying that, all you men on Instagram. 00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:55.199 Um, so I didn't like I didn't go in with like stars in my eyes or anything. 00:50:55.199 --> 00:51:04.960 I went in with a decision to apply burned haystack methodology more strictly than anyone had ever applied it before, because I felt like I have to, right? 00:51:04.960 --> 00:51:07.519 Like if I'm not wanting to do that, who would be? 00:51:07.519 --> 00:51:08.480 And it worked. 00:51:08.480 --> 00:51:09.519 And it worked quickly. 00:51:09.519 --> 00:51:11.280 And and that doesn't mean it's going to. 00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:13.840 Like, obviously, there's an element of law, right? 00:51:13.840 --> 00:51:23.840 Like you are we are all at the mercy of the apps if you're on a dating app, but right you have to be willing to be brutally honest, you have to be willing to be ruthless. 00:51:23.840 --> 00:51:29.360 The words ruthless and brutal are cited more than any other word in burned haste success stories. 00:51:29.360 --> 00:51:30.639 I've studied this. 00:51:30.639 --> 00:51:37.119 Um, one of the things we do on rhetorical analysis is code and count words, and like those are the words, brutal and ruthless. 00:51:37.119 --> 00:51:42.480 So you don't have to have any kind of like romantic conception or belief. 00:51:42.480 --> 00:51:49.039 But if you want to meet a good guy, I do think this is your best bet for making that happen. 00:51:49.039 --> 00:51:51.599 And it's, you know, it's happened a lot. 00:51:51.599 --> 00:52:02.960 Like I scrolled through yesterday just of the burned hays burned haystack success stories that I've done features of in the Facebook group. 00:52:02.960 --> 00:52:06.000 So this isn't like every time somebody says I met my needle. 00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:09.119 These are the ones I did, you know, full-blown features of. 00:52:09.119 --> 00:52:12.079 And I think it was 87, 87 couples. 00:52:12.079 --> 00:52:24.320 So that's actually quite a lot in a relatively short period of time, especially since we know it's only a fraction of people who because you know, all day on Instagram we see women saying, I met my needle, I mean, and I don't even know who these people are. 00:52:24.320 --> 00:52:25.679 I don't know their story or anything. 00:52:25.679 --> 00:52:27.360 So it is working. 00:52:27.360 --> 00:52:29.760 We have the evidence that it's working. 00:52:29.760 --> 00:52:33.119 Um, if that's encouraging, I don't know. 00:52:33.440 --> 00:52:38.079 No, I think it's very encouraging, and I think that my audience is going to find it very encouraging as well. 00:52:38.079 --> 00:52:40.559 So, closing question for you. 00:52:40.559 --> 00:52:48.719 You wrote this method just to validate what women already know in their bones, it feels like to me. 00:52:48.719 --> 00:52:58.000 Um, which speaks to all the women listening out there who want their intuition to guide them, who have felt their intuition their entire life and probably been told, don't listen to that. 00:52:58.000 --> 00:52:59.119 That's stupid and silly. 00:52:59.119 --> 00:53:06.000 And what you just said, like that that woman therapist in the group had said, you know, our intuition is logical, right? 00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:09.039 It just is faster than what that logic is. 00:53:09.039 --> 00:53:22.320 So for the woman listening who's about to open the apps, get on the dating apps for the first time since her divorce, and she's scared and she's nervous, what do you want her to remember from your advice from this book? 00:53:23.440 --> 00:53:37.760 Um I I think that the the more knowledge you have, I like I feel like the easy answer to this question is for me to sort of like articulate a certain mindset, but I don't think that's the answer. 00:53:37.760 --> 00:53:39.760 I think you want to educate yourself. 00:53:39.760 --> 00:53:43.039 You know, and it doesn't have to be burn the haystack. 00:53:43.039 --> 00:53:50.880 Like there's, you know, read on attachment theory, read books about healthy relationship, whatever like appeals to you, or listen to podcasts or whatever it is. 00:53:50.880 --> 00:54:06.320 But the more knowledge and information you have, and the more that knowledge and information is grounded in actual research, whether it's theoretical research like mine or more like social science research, uh, Logan Ury's book, How to Not Die Alone, is fantastic. 00:54:06.320 --> 00:54:09.760 She's definitely more like she's a data scientist. 00:54:09.760 --> 00:54:22.159 Um, Jillian Turecki's books are amazing for relationship dynamics, and you know, I'm sure a whole bunch of others that I'm that are escaping me, but educate yourself first. 00:54:22.159 --> 00:54:24.079 I believe in knowledge. 00:54:24.400 --> 00:54:25.199 I love that. 00:54:25.199 --> 00:54:29.119 I think that's a beautiful way to end this conversation. 00:54:29.119 --> 00:54:31.280 Um, where can people find you? 00:54:31.280 --> 00:54:32.320 Where can they get the book? 00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:35.360 What do you want my audience to know about how to find you? 00:54:35.360 --> 00:54:36.239 How to find your list? 00:54:36.559 --> 00:54:39.599 So you can get the book anywhere, like anywhere you buy books, you can get it. 00:54:39.599 --> 00:54:42.000 Um, and in it in all formats. 00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:46.880 So I I will say if you're using it for dating, get the physical book. 00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:49.199 It'll it'll just help you, Mark, because it's like a reference. 00:54:50.480 --> 00:54:53.360 You can like underline it and do all the things that you do with your book, right? 00:54:53.360 --> 00:54:54.719 Right. 00:54:54.800 --> 00:54:55.039 Yeah. 00:54:55.039 --> 00:54:58.639 Um, but there is

an ebook version and an audiobook version. 00:54:58.639 --> 00:55:11.840 Um, in terms of me, the if you search burnt haystack dating method on Facebook, first of all, you're gonna find a whole bunch of groups because there's a bunch of fake ones out there, but just look for the big one, the the the one that has you know the highest number of members. 00:55:11.840 --> 00:55:12.960 That's the real one. 00:55:12.960 --> 00:55:19.360 Um I'm on Instagram at Word case scenario, like worst case scenario, except it's Word. 00:55:19.360 --> 00:55:23.039 And then I have a Substack too, which is just called burnt haystack. 00:55:23.039 --> 00:55:25.360 So it's like burned haystack.substack. 00:55:25.360 --> 00:55:30.639 I am getting ready to launch a new platform, but I haven't talked about it publicly yet. 00:55:30.960 --> 00:55:31.599 Oh, okay. 00:55:31.599 --> 00:55:32.960 So something in the words. 00:55:33.599 --> 00:55:35.280 I mean, within the next week or so. 00:55:35.280 --> 00:55:42.639 Um anything important comes out on Substack just because that's like a more trustworthy platform. 00:55:42.639 --> 00:55:47.840 Like you can always get back to it and find it, whereas things just randomly disappear from Facebook all the time. 00:55:47.840 --> 00:55:55.199 Um so and and I should say my Substack is you can read everything on my Substack for free. 00:55:55.199 --> 00:56:04.079 It's it's it's a monetized platform, but I post everything, and and like people do pay me on Substack, but I post everything in front of the paywall. 00:56:04.079 --> 00:56:10.079 So I don't want your readers to think like, yeah, I'm gonna get sucked in and be able to read a paragraph, but then I'll have to pay. 00:56:10.079 --> 00:56:10.800 I don't do that. 00:56:10.800 --> 00:56:16.960 Like, if you want to join in for free, you can just join in for free and read 100% of the content because that's part of the accessibility public school. 00:56:16.960 --> 00:56:17.679 I love that. 00:56:17.840 --> 00:56:20.480 Okay, I will make sure and have all of the links in my description. 00:56:20.480 --> 00:56:23.280 But Jennie, you are a wealth of knowledge. 00:56:23.280 --> 00:56:27.920 Thank you so much for bringing all of your knowledge to this audience. 00:56:27.920 --> 00:56:29.920 I think it's going to be very useful. 00:56:29.920 --> 00:56:30.800 You're amazing. 00:56:30.800 --> 00:56:31.840 Thank you so much for being here. 00:56:32.079 --> 00:56:33.599 Oh, thanks for having me. 00:56:33.920 --> 00:56:34.639 Hi, friend. 00:56:34.639 --> 00:56:36.559 I'm so glad you're here and thanks for listening. 00:56:36.559 --> 00:56:46.480 I wanted to let you know that if you're wanting more, a way to make deeper, more lasting change, then working one-on-one with me as your coach may be exactly what you need. 00:56:46.480 --> 00:56:54.960 Together, we'll take everything you're learning in the podcast and implement it in your life with weekly coaching, real life practice, and practical guidance. 00:56:54.960 --> 00:56:59.679 To learn more about how to work with me one-on-one, go to Karin Nelsoncoaching.com. 00:56:59.679 --> 00:57:06.400 That's www.k-ar-in-n-e-l-s-o-n coaching.com. 00:57:06.400 --> 00:57:08.159 Thanks for listening. 00:57:08.159 --> 00:57:14.719 If this podcast agreed with you in any way, please take a minute to follow and give me a rating wherever you listen to podcasts. 00:57:14.719 --> 00:57:24.400 And for more details about how I can help you live an even better life than when you were married, make sure and check out the full show notes by clicking the link in the description.