Full Transcript for All About Vanilla

you can. 00:05:41.530 --> 00:05:47.370 Is that what leads to the incredible expense of vanilla and why this is such an expensive spice? 00:05:47.850 --> 00:05:53.050 I wouldn't say that the the actual cultivation of vanilla is what makes makes it expensive. 00:05:53.209 --> 00:06:00.730 It's probably more related to some of the archaic development or lack of development for the for the crop. 00:06:00.889 --> 00:06:09.209 So I'm a firm believer in the application of technology to make our crop plants affordable, safe, and nutritious. 00:06:09.530 --> 00:06:22.329 Vanilla seems to be one that just hasn't received um large-scale attention for decades, like so many of our temperate crops in terms of plant breeding or even innovations in the way the plant is grown. 00:06:22.490 --> 00:06:24.889 And so that was some of where our work focused. 00:06:25.209 --> 00:06:30.650 Vanilla also struggles with perennial problems that have to do with supply restrictions. 00:06:30.730 --> 00:06:37.209 So a major weather event can knock out a significant portion of the global supply, which drives prices up. 00:06:37.449 --> 00:06:46.090 When prices go high, lots of people will plant new vanilla vanillaries, and then those take a number of years to start producing. 00:06:46.250 --> 00:06:52.410 And then there's an oversupply of vanilla peans, and so prices drop, leading to other problems. 00:06:52.490 --> 00:07:03.209 And so the cyclical nature of boom and bust really creates problems for both the consumer in the end, but then also people that are buying the beans making the vanilla extract. 00:07:03.449 --> 00:07:06.329 So it's it's not purely a genetic problem. 00:07:06.490 --> 00:07:17.129 It's not a necessarily a growing problem, but it's it's because of how international trade is managed in response to severe weather events and drought and things like that. 00:07:17.530 --> 00:07:20.970 You mentioned uh the curing process after harvest. 00:07:21.129 --> 00:07:24.490 What is that post-harvest processing like and what does it involve? 00:07:24.889 --> 00:07:29.610 Yeah, so a green vanilla bean doesn't have any real flavor or aroma to it. 00:07:29.769 --> 00:07:32.810 Maybe a little bit of grassy is what you would get from it. 00:07:33.050 --> 00:07:37.530 It has all the potential to make a delicious bean, but it has to be encouraged. 00:07:37.689 --> 00:07:49.449 Um, this in nature might be a way for the vanilla bean to attract pollinators to come and sample whatever the aroma is, but then also disperse the seeds in order to propagate the species. 00:07:49.930 --> 00:08:07.689 Uh, for humans, what we'll end up doing is picking the green beans, and then there's a series of thermal treatments that we'll apply to the bean that basically disrupts the cells in the bean so that enzymes can find the right molecules that will give you flavor that makes the bean smell great. 00:08:07.850 --> 00:08:10.810 And so you apply heat and humidity and time. 00:08:10.889 --> 00:08:19.850 And when in the end, what you get are those wrinkled brown beans that you can see online or in the store that have that really nice vanilla aroma. 00:08:20.650 --> 00:08:26.569 You mentioned you're an advocate for the use of technology, but I'm sure there's a range of ways this has been done traditionally. 00:08:26.730 --> 00:08:32.809 Would normally this would the beans just be laid out in the sun, or what are some of the other more traditional methods? 00:08:33.209 --> 00:08:38.090 Yeah, vanilla curing, there's a there's a few general ways that vanilla is cured. 00:08:38.169 --> 00:08:40.730 There's what's called the bourbon or traditional method. 00:08:40.809 --> 00:08:45.049 This comes out of Madagascar, where most of the world's vanilla comes from. 00:08:45.449 --> 00:08:48.490 This includes a hot water bath treatment. 00:08:48.649 --> 00:08:56.169 So high temperature water is first done to scald the beans or blanching them, you might call that, um, in other places. 00:08:56.409 --> 00:09:05.689 And then high humidity and temperature is maintained in the beans for a couple of days, and then they're put onto racks and they're slowly dried over a period of months. 00:09:05.929 --> 00:09:17.209 In Madagascar, where labor is cheap, they'll actually physically move these large screened boxes inside and outside every day to slowly dry down the beans. 00:09:17.850 --> 00:09:24.490 Then there are other countries where they're trying to automate this process to get more control over the final product. 00:09:24.569 --> 00:09:30.569 So you can take a green vanilla bean, treat it improperly, and get garbage out at the other end. 00:09:30.730 --> 00:09:40.649 But if you are able to control some of those parameters of temperature and time and humidity, you can take beans that have a high potential to be delicious and then make sure you have a great product. 00:09:40.729 --> 00:09:50.649 And so some of this is done through controlled environment rooms where the temperature and humidity are controlled in large batches, and that helps with the uniformity of the product. 00:09:50.809 --> 00:09:55.689 And we're seeing some of that work in Tanzania as well as some of the islands in the Caribbean. 00:09:56.009 --> 00:10:00.969 How far back do we have evidence of indigenous populations working with vanilla? 00:10:01.609 --> 00:10:16.729 And there's some fascinating publications on the history of vanilla, going back to the Totonac people, the Aztecs, even, and then as part of the Spanish spice trade as they were moving through the area there. 00:10:16.969 --> 00:10:24.729 Um, there's evidence that these native people were using vanilla in some of their beverages, usually reserved for royalty. 00:10:24.889 --> 00:10:39.449 Um, but even still, there are vanilla species that are not available on the international market that are still used by local people as part of their regular diets to flavor different things, their foods, their beverages.

00:10:39.769 --> 00:10:54.169 With the work you're doing to improve some of the agricultural practices with vanilla, what do you feel that someone in your position can learn from an indigenous population or a traditional uh method of working with vanilla? 00:10:54.889 --> 00:10:59.609 Yeah, one of our biggest challenges is we don't know what we don't know in vanilla. 00:11:00.009 --> 00:11:12.569 And so there's so much diversity out there and so many different uses of vanilla that we can learn from, you know, local people, native peoples all through North, Central, and South America. 00:11:12.729 --> 00:11:17.929 And what the crop means to them, I think, is uh it makes it a little more romantic. 00:11:18.089 --> 00:11:21.370 People like to understand where their food comes from and a little bit of history. 00:11:21.449 --> 00:11:23.929 I think it makes it more interesting of a story. 00:11:24.169 --> 00:11:34.250 But at the same time, we can benefit from hundreds, if not thousands, of years of cultivation practices, hopefully to make a sustainable route for us going forward. 00:11:34.729 --> 00:11:38.889 On a chemical and sensory level, what is the flavor of vanilla? 00:11:39.049 --> 00:11:40.329 What are we tasting? 00:11:40.649 --> 00:11:44.089 Uh, the primary flavor of vanilla is vanilla. 00:11:44.489 --> 00:11:49.529 Um, this is uh replicated synthetically for when you buy artificial vanilla flavor. 00:11:49.689 --> 00:11:54.250 That's primarily vanillin with a little bit of brown color wherever that comes from. 00:11:54.409 --> 00:11:56.649 Um, you can also get it in clear versions. 00:11:56.969 --> 00:12:04.969 Whereas if you're getting vanilla extract from the bean, it's a bouquet of dozens, if not hundreds, of different flavor compounds. 00:12:05.209 --> 00:12:10.409 And all of those work together to give you a much more rounded vanilla flavor. 00:12:10.569 --> 00:12:20.729 Um, and that's why people pay a little bit more for it, is because it's got this more full, more rich, and it's it's a better sensory experience for a lot of people. 00:12:20.809 --> 00:12:26.489 In the same way that a grape or an orange soda doesn't necessarily remind you of the fruit itself. 00:12:26.649 --> 00:12:33.849 Uh, we can look at the same way between the synthetic as well compared to the natural botanically derived vanilla flavor. 00:12:34.250 --> 00:12:40.729 Is that synthetic vanilla uh chemically identical to what is actually coming from the plant? 00:12:41.289 --> 00:12:42.729 To to a part of it, yes. 00:12:42.889 --> 00:12:47.689 So in the vanilla extract, you'll have dozens or hundreds of odorants. 00:12:47.929 --> 00:12:54.649 And the primary one is vanilla, which is going to be chemically identical at the molecular level to the synthetic. 00:12:54.889 --> 00:13:06.409 The synthetic is usually derived from petrochemicals or through some other feedstock, maybe um maybe a waste product from a paper mill industry where you get a very cheap starting material. 00:13:06.649 --> 00:13:08.729 It goes through some type of process. 00:13:08.889 --> 00:13:12.489 And in the end, you are uh purifying pure vanilla. 00:13:13.209 --> 00:13:17.370 You mentioned that the raw beans don't really have much aroma. 00:13:17.529 --> 00:13:24.250 What is actually happening that is expressing all of those chemicals that are aroma active at the end? 00:13:24.809 --> 00:13:34.729 The vanilla bean and or the vanilla plant is more interested in dispersing of its seeds than it necessarily is in making maybe our ice creams and baked goods taste delicious. 00:13:34.969 --> 00:13:37.209 And so it's about timing for the plant. 00:13:37.289 --> 00:13:43.049 What the plant needs to do is to make sure that its seeds are ready to be dispersed into the environment. 00:13:43.289 --> 00:13:54.489 So if it attracts something to eat, say the bean, before the seeds are ready, now those seeds aren't going to have a chance to be dispersed and to grow into new plants. 00:13:54.649 --> 00:14:05.769 And so the plant itself is preparing the bean to develop all those flavors by keeping enzymes and what the enzymes turn into the aroma compounds separated. 00:14:06.009 --> 00:14:10.250 You might think of this like one of those glow sticks that you buy in the store, you crack them. 00:14:10.329 --> 00:14:12.489 It's only when you crack it you get the glow. 00:14:12.649 --> 00:14:14.569 And so it's at the right place at the right time. 00:14:14.649 --> 00:14:16.569 I want to get this light from the glow stick. 00:14:16.729 --> 00:14:22.729 The vanilla bean does the same thing by putting two different compounds or enzymes or whatever in different places. 00:14:22.889 --> 00:14:29.849 And then when it's ready to be ripened, the seeds are ready, and then it breaks, you know, almost physically that separation. 00:14:30.009 --> 00:14:32.250 And now you get the evolution of flavor. 00:14:32.569 --> 00:14:33.849 That's fascinating. 00:14:34.169 --> 00:14:40.250 You mentioned the one primary uh genetic variant that that provides most of our commercial vanilla. 00:14:40.409 --> 00:14:44.969 What are some of the different genetic variations or regional variations that you might see? 00:14:45.289 --> 00:14:50.569 So there are over a hundred vanilla species around the world, different colors, shapes, sizes. 00:14:50.649 --> 00:14:55.049 There are leafless species, which are just these green stems growing. 00:14:55.129 --> 00:15:00.809 Um, we have four native species in southern Florida where I was doing this research. 00:15:01.049 --> 00:15:10.889 Some that sprawl over the mangroves, full sun, very salty environment, and yet they're still able to grow there, which is absolutely amazing. 00:15:11.129 --> 00:15:17.209 There are also non-aromatic species, and so you'll cure the beans, and there's no flavor that comes out of them whatsoever. 00:15:17.289 --> 00:15:21.529 So they don't rely on those aroma compounds to disperse their seeds. 00:15:22.009 -->

00:15:29.689 Outside of vanilla plantfolia, there are a few other, a few other species that do produce a nice vanilla extract. 00:15:29.769 --> 00:15:31.929 So one of those is vanilla tahitensis. 00:15:32.250 --> 00:15:37.289 So this is an aromatic type that is commercially approved, and you can find this usually online. 00:15:37.449 --> 00:15:40.969 It's a little more rare than say in your local grocery store. 00:15:41.209 --> 00:15:49.049 And then there's vanilla pompona, which is even more rare, which gives you a unique sensory profile. 00:15:49.209 --> 00:15:51.769 Some people describe it as a little more raisin-y. 00:15:51.929 --> 00:15:57.769 Uh, to me, it tastes more sweet than the other, the typical type, which is one of the ones I prefer. 00:15:57.929 --> 00:16:11.689 Um, there's also vanilla odorata, which as its name implies, gives a nice flavor profile with some more anise flavor notes, which you can distinctly tell these apart if you were to have them all in front of you. 00:16:11.929 --> 00:16:18.329 And that's just a small sampling of the various opportunities that are out there for niche and novel vanilla flavor. 00:16:18.649 --> 00:16:23.049 Vanilla, of course, is grown in many different countries around the world, as you mentioned earlier. 00:16:23.209 --> 00:16:31.689 Are those are the main commercial varieties all the same main variant and they're just getting different characteristics from the soil and the environment? 00:16:31.769 --> 00:16:34.409 Or what accounts for the differences between those? 00:16:34.809 --> 00:16:40.969 Most of the vanilla grown around the world is clonally descended from early foundational clones. 00:16:41.129 --> 00:16:48.889 So what that means is someone took one plant from Central America a few hundred years ago and then propagated it. 00:16:49.129 --> 00:16:59.769 And then most of what's being grown is clonally, genetically identical or near-identical stalks from those original clones, which has a lot of risk associated with it. 00:17:00.169 --> 00:17:06.569 Um, that helps in some ways with having a uniform production system because most of the plants act the same. 00:17:06.730 --> 00:17:14.329 While there might be some small differences based on geography, mostly we see genetics driving a lot of those differences. 00:17:14.410 --> 00:17:22.809 So vanilla tahitensis is actually a hybrid between the main commercial type and odorata, which is also aromatic. 00:17:22.970 --> 00:17:28.089 And then that is grown as a clone, uh, especially in Tahiti and Indonesia through there. 00:17:28.250 --> 00:17:31.210 And that gives you a very distinct flavor. 00:17:31.450 --> 00:17:40.569 Whereas if you were to grow that in Madagascar, it probably still tastes very much like tahitensis, even though you're growing it under a plant of folia intense culture. 00:18:47.460 --> 00:18:53.379 How environmentally uh sensitive are the sensory characteristics of vanilla? 00:18:53.539 --> 00:19:01.299 Like if you were to take a you know a genetic clone and move it in different places, would you notice those differences after harvest? 00:19:02.019 --> 00:19:07.299 The differences taking one vanilla plant and growing it different places might be a little more subtle. 00:19:07.379 --> 00:19:15.380 Um, and what we'd anticipate is that some of the ratios of the major flavor compounds would would probably stay similar. 00:19:15.539 --> 00:19:24.579 Uh, the relative abundance, though, can be impacted from anything from watering to solar radiation to nutrient availability. 00:19:24.819 --> 00:19:33.059 Uh, whether the average consumer would be able to tell a difference in that, like they do in wine, to say, oh, this tastes reminiscent of this region versus another. 00:19:33.220 --> 00:19:46.579 I don't believe we're there in vanilla yet, though I know people are interested in what impacts that can have in creating a regional specific product that can then support different geographies. 00:19:47.140 --> 00:19:53.940 Talk a little bit about the challenges you're facing trying to uh develop cultivation of vanilla in southern Florida. 00:19:54.339 --> 00:19:59.940 Cultivation of vanilla in southern Florida is challenging specifically because it was new. 00:20:00.660 --> 00:20:07.859 Every step along the way was challenging because we couldn't just order up 10,000 or 100,000 plants to start with. 00:20:08.099 --> 00:20:15.220 And when we did start, we found a number of unanticipated challenges, including um the prevalence of viruses. 00:20:15.779 --> 00:20:24.019 And the viruses can kill the plant, but generally they weaken them and they're usually don't they don't display symptoms until the plant starts to die. 00:20:24.259 --> 00:20:29.940 So we had to find clean material, we had to find material that would grow well in our environment. 00:20:30.099 --> 00:20:37.859 So Southern Florida is distinct in its growing environment from, say, Mexico or Madagascar or India. 00:20:38.259 --> 00:20:48.980 And so we had to screen a lot of material to figure out what would do well under our climate and what produced large beans, good number of beans, and beans with a good flavor. 00:20:49.380 --> 00:21:00.660 After all of that work, only then could we start to figure out okay, how do we get tens of thousands of these plants so that a grower who's interested could put in an acre or five acres of vanilla? 00:21:01.059 --> 00:21:05.140 And then we were also at the same time working on how do you grow the plant? 00:21:05.299 --> 00:21:06.660 How do you keep it healthy? 00:21:06.900 --> 00:21:12.259 What risks are there associated with hurricanes or drought or pests or diseases? 00:21:12.500 --> 00:21:20.900 And really the only way to figure this out is empirically, you have to be there actually growing the plants and watching them to figure out what problems you're going to encounter. 00:21:21.220 --> 00:21:23.059 What are these plants like in the field? 00:21:23.140 --> 00:21:24.660 I

mean, are they are they grown in rows? 00:21:24.819 --> 00:21:26.259 Is it a climbing vine? 00:21:26.420 --> 00:21:27.940 What is that actually like? 00:21:28.500 --> 00:21:32.819 Most vanilla is grown under what's called a tutor tree system. 00:21:32.980 --> 00:21:39.539 And so you'll go into a forested area and then grow vanilla on the trunks of various trees or bushes. 00:21:39.619 --> 00:21:41.779 So vanilla is a shade-loving plant. 00:21:41.940 --> 00:21:50.259 And they'll let the plant grow up to about, you know, five feet or two meters or so, and then they'll loot the plant back down to the soil and go up again the tree. 00:21:50.339 --> 00:21:55.539 So you'll get these tufts of vanilla vines around a support structure. 00:21:55.940 --> 00:22:05.380 That works well in a lot of places, but in southern Florida, where land is extremely expensive, we need a higher density than that in order to meet our price needs. 00:22:05.619 --> 00:22:10.500 So in southern Florida, what you will see is an artificial shade canopy. 00:22:10.579 --> 00:22:14.339 This is a screen cloth, like you would see on your windows to keep insects out. 00:22:14.500 --> 00:22:20.819 And then by changing the amount of material, you can vary the amount of light that's the plants are actually receiving. 00:22:20.900 --> 00:22:22.420 So that can be optimized. 00:22:22.579 --> 00:22:25.380 And then you'll see these grown on wire trellises. 00:22:25.619 --> 00:22:33.539 Um, so if you've ever seen how grapes are grown or passion fruit, uh the vines will be supported on these wire trellises at much higher density. 00:22:33.619 --> 00:22:37.700 And it's also easier to get to the plants because they're in nice clean rows. 00:22:38.019 --> 00:22:40.980 Reminds me of how hops are grown for brewing. 00:22:41.299 --> 00:22:49.059 So many crops, exactly, are grown with a minimal support structure and then in nice rows so that you can access your crop. 00:22:49.380 --> 00:22:58.099 Would Florida naturally be in the latitudinal band for vanilla to be able to grow, or is there an additional challenge with that? 00:22:58.819 --> 00:23:02.900 Growing in Florida is convenient because we do have those native species. 00:23:03.059 --> 00:23:06.740 So we know that it is a suitable environment for at least some species. 00:23:07.059 --> 00:23:12.019 Every growing environment has different risks associated for agriculture. 00:23:12.180 --> 00:23:17.220 And that's true if you're in Kansas or if you're in Brazil or if you're in Germany. 00:23:17.619 --> 00:23:20.740 So it's about understanding those risks and minimizing them. 00:23:20.900 --> 00:23:28.579 So, for example, in Mexico, one of the biggest challenges they face, at least in the published literature, is reported to be uh drought. 00:23:28.740 --> 00:23:33.859 In southern Florida, we have too much water from rain, from the canals. 00:23:34.019 --> 00:23:35.539 There's an excess of water. 00:23:35.700 --> 00:23:37.299 So drought isn't really

a problem. 00:23:37.460 --> 00:23:42.660 It's accessible, it's easy to it's easy to pump and to take care of your plants with water. 00:23:42.980 --> 00:23:46.900 Um, hurricanes are a problem or cyclones in Madagascar. 00:23:47.059 --> 00:23:48.980 Hurricanes are a problem in Florida. 00:23:49.220 --> 00:23:58.579 One of the nice things is that usually hurricane damage is at least in groves and trees, you start seeing that at plants that are 10, 12, and 15 feet. 00:23:58.819 --> 00:24:00.980 Vanilla is kept well below that. 00:24:01.140 --> 00:24:05.539 While the shade structure might be damaged, usually the vines do just fine in high winds. 00:24:05.700 --> 00:24:10.099 Probably the Biggest challenges that you'll see in a place like Florida will be theft. 00:24:10.259 --> 00:24:14.019 So vanilla is a very valuable target for thieves. 00:24:14.259 --> 00:24:28.740 And we see that with other high-value crops like sapote, mame, uh, mango, um, especially when you've got our an agricultural area right next to a major city like Miami, there can be some spillover and challenges there. 00:24:28.980 --> 00:24:31.619 And so every region is distinct with its challenges. 00:24:31.700 --> 00:24:36.900 It's about managing those and then trying to put the best science forward to mitigate risk. 00:24:37.220 --> 00:24:39.299 I never would have thought about theft. 00:24:39.460 --> 00:24:44.099 Is that organized in any way, or is that just individuals being opportunistic? 00:24:44.740 --> 00:24:47.859 Well, so and theft is a problem in Madagascar. 00:24:47.940 --> 00:24:51.059 It's a problem in Hawaii where vanilla is grown. 00:24:51.299 --> 00:24:56.819 I uh once asked a vanilla grower in Hawaii what his biggest pest problem was, and he told me it was humans. 00:24:57.059 --> 00:25:01.859 So there's there's a certain level of this opportunism for for theft. 00:25:02.019 --> 00:25:11.059 Um, it is a it is a perennial problem, especially in Madagascar, where the land is more communal in terms of access to and from. 00:25:11.380 --> 00:25:24.579 And so someone going through a field, it's convenient enough for them to snatch on their way through with very little risk, high opportunities to sell that product, even if it's below uh normal cost. 00:25:25.299 --> 00:25:28.420 And that's going to be the same in southern Florida. 00:25:28.579 --> 00:25:36.019 While security might be less expensive relatively in southern Florida, it still is going probably to be a problem. 00:25:36.500 --> 00:25:41.859 Are any of the native Florida varieties commercially viable? 00:25:42.019 --> 00:25:44.420 Could that can they be adapted in any way? 00:25:45.059 --> 00:25:54.099 We look more at the native Florida vanilla species as ways to learn from nature, to learn from the genetics that they possess. 00:25:54.339 --> 00:25:58.420 So, for example, vanilla phayantha is one of our native species. 00:25:58.579 --> 00:26:07.059 It does make an aromatic pot, but I'm not aware of any local people, native people that actually use it in their food. 00:26:07.220 --> 00:26:10.339 While that might be the case, I'm just not aware of any. 00:26:10.500 --> 00:26:14.259 So there might be some food health concerns there, some food safety concerns. 00:26:14.420 --> 00:26:21.460 Um, vanilla faantha, though, is resistant to one of the major fungal pathogens that infects vanilla plantifolia. 00:26:21.539 --> 00:26:27.700 So we start to wonder if that genetic resistance can be transferred to vanilla planofolia. 00:26:28.099 --> 00:26:37.299 There's also another species, vanilla mexicana, that is self-pollinating, doesn't require an insect or anyone to go in there with a toothpick to pollinate the flower. 00:26:37.539 --> 00:26:50.019 That trait alone could be hugely valuable to vanilla plantifolia if you can figure out how vanilla mexicana is able to do that uniquely among the vanilla species and then transfer that into vanilla plantifolia. 00:26:50.259 --> 00:26:54.500 At the same time, vanilla mexicana is very challenging to work with. 00:26:54.579 --> 00:26:55.779 It's a very sensitive plant. 00:26:55.859 --> 00:27:00.019 It is endangered, so you can't legally work with it or collect it unless you have permits. 00:27:00.579 --> 00:27:03.140 Um, it's also non-aromatic. 00:27:03.220 --> 00:27:09.220 So the bean doesn't produce any flavor, so not really useful in terms of extract, but it is beautiful. 00:27:09.299 --> 00:27:12.500 So very interesting species in terms of its ornamental value. 00:27:12.660 --> 00:27:18.660 So mostly we look at the natives for what we can learn from them, not necessarily for a commercial product on their own. 00:27:18.980 --> 00:27:23.220 What do you think is most commonly misunderstood about vanilla in the general public? 00:27:23.940 --> 00:27:47.700 One of the biggest misconceptions about vanilla, I would think, is the reason that it is expensive or the challenges that have to be solved to get a product to the consumer in a cute little bottle that's safe and relatively affordable, as well as the understanding of how many people's lives are touched by a natural product like vanilla extract. 00:27:47.859 --> 00:27:58.420 Um, the people at the grocery store, the wholesaler, the, you know, and then going beyond that to the collectors, the growers, and all the families that that supports. 00:27:58.660 --> 00:28:03.859 It's amazing with that small bottle, how many people's livelihoods that supports. 00:28:04.019 --> 00:28:06.900 And I think that's part of the how fascinating it is. 00:28:07.059 --> 00:28:14.980 As well as the rich history of vanilla, it seems that as soon as we found vanilla as part of Western culture, it was distributed everywhere. 00:28:15.140 --> 00:28:18.900 I think there's just something in our DNA that really likes vanilla. 00:28:18.980 --> 00:28:30.819 And so I think it's got this nice staying power as well as a rich history for how it moved around the world and really captured our attention in

terms of what it can do to make our food more delicious. 00:28:31.140 --> 00:28:44.339 Talking about how many lives are touched, looking at other crops that grow in some of these same regions like cacao and coffee, you have a lot of ethical and social concerns around farmers being paid, laborers being taken care of. 00:28:44.500 --> 00:28:46.819 Do we see similar issues like that in vanilla? 00:28:47.380 --> 00:28:54.579 Vanilla certainly has similar um issues as well as accountability for sustainability and fair wages. 00:28:54.740 --> 00:28:58.019 Um, a lot of this work is being targeted in Madagascar. 00:28:58.339 --> 00:29:09.299 I think historically, a lot of these very large multinational companies have invested significantly in Madagascar, in Malagasy schools, in supply chains. 00:29:09.380 --> 00:29:12.500 There's also some very real challenges that are still there. 00:29:12.819 --> 00:29:34.339 Um, but understanding the whole supply chain, it's very complicated trying to get a product from Madagascar to the United States or the European Union, and then how you can make that equitable to make sure that the farmer at the very base level is able to improve their livelihood, to make sure they've got food on the table to send their kids to school. 00:29:34.500 --> 00:29:56.500 And I think that that's been garnering increasing attention over the previous years, especially as you look at things like cacao and coffee, very similar stories of what would be a minor burden to the average consumer in a Western nation could have a significant impact for the livelihood of a number of these growers. 00:29:57.059 --> 00:30:06.339 Looking at cacao specifically, given that they originate in the same area and can be grown in similar areas, and this is a tree, can they be co-cropped at all? 00:30:07.140 --> 00:30:11.299 I do know some people that are looking to co-crop vanilla and cacao. 00:30:11.380 --> 00:30:22.500 Um, one of the challenges is the cacao pod is formed on the hard tissue of the cacao tree or and the vanilla that's exactly where the vine grows as well. 00:30:22.740 --> 00:30:26.180 So you you can't compete for the same physical space. 00:30:26.420 --> 00:30:36.180 We are we have a number of people that are looking at vanilla production under normal agroforestry systems, avocados would be a good one because they're not competing for the same space. 00:30:36.339 --> 00:30:40.660 Um, but usually, you know, growers are very creative people all around the world. 00:30:40.740 --> 00:30:47.700 And if they see a piece of their real estate where they can get a you know additional revenue on that, we see that type of exploration. 00:30:47.779 --> 00:30:51.460 And then they're the ones who are teaching us this worked, this didn't work. 00:30:51.619 --> 00:30:54.180 It'd be interesting if we could dig deeper into this. 00:30:54.579 --> 00:31:00.339 Has cacao entered into any of your interest in tropical crops for southern Florida? 00:31:00.660 --> 00:31:02.980 I would certainly love to work with cacao. 00:31:03.140 --> 00:31:07.460 Unfortunately, it is too cold in the winter in southern Florida for most cacao. 00:31:07.779 --> 00:31:15.140 Uh, there are a few species that are truly tropical that we we can't economically produce in southern Florida. 00:31:15.380 --> 00:31:17.619 And uh cacao is one of those. 00:31:17.859 --> 00:31:19.940 Breadfruit is another. 00:31:20.099 --> 00:31:29.059 Um, there's a handful of others out there that the climate really doesn't justify the risk of uh any type of major investment, though. 00:31:29.140 --> 00:31:38.180 At the the hobbyists homeowner level, sure, there are people that have those, but you get a freeze event or even chilly temperatures, it really damages those tropical plants. 00:31:39.140 --> 00:31:45.859 Finally, why have you devoted so much of your time to vanilla, besides just, you know, it's part of your job? 00:31:46.099 --> 00:31:47.140 What do you love about this? 00:31:47.299 --> 00:31:49.460 What do you find so interesting about it? 00:31:50.099 --> 00:31:53.299 Vanilla really is just a fascinating species. 00:31:53.460 --> 00:31:54.579 Um, it's addictive. 00:31:54.740 --> 00:32:15.140 When you get into something like that, um, the rich history, the huge potential, as well as the fact that I'm a heavy user of vanilla extract, especially now, um, it's easy to get passionate about something like that and to feel like I'm contributing to the body of scientific literature as well as livelihoods. 00:32:15.380 --> 00:32:31.859 Um, while I could be focused on growers in southern Florida, what I would hope is that through my networks and the research that we're publishing is that we could benefit growers wherever they are and other researchers as well, taking the tools that we develop and then using that to improve livelihoods. 00:32:32.019 --> 00:32:38.819 And there's not that many crops where you can really go from zero to something amazing in such a short period of time. 00:32:38.900 --> 00:32:41.059 And vanilla is certainly one of those. 00:32:41.380 --> 00:32:45.700 As a heavy user, do you have a vanilla that you reach for most often? 00:32:46.180 --> 00:32:46.660 I do. 00:32:46.740 --> 00:32:57.140 So my my personal stash includes uh vanilla plantifolia, which I got from Madagascar when I was there, vanilla pompona, also from Madagascar. 00:32:57.220 --> 00:33:00.740 That's my go-to for when I've I've got a special event or when I'm down. 00:33:00.819 --> 00:33:02.019 That's what I go to. 00:33:02.180 --> 00:33:07.140 And I also have vanilla tahitensis, which my wife and some of my kids prefer. 00:33:07.220 --> 00:34:30.910 But for me, vanilla pompona is my my go-to at this time. 00:34:31.230 --> 00:34:32.510 And is that a variety? 00:34:32.670 --> 00:34:37.309 Is that something that most people would probably be able to access where they are? 00:34:38.030 --> 00:34:42.670 You you can purchase vanilla pompona online from a few reputable

sellers. 00:34:42.910 --> 00:34:50.670 You don't see the extract, it has not been granted what we what is called grass status or generally recognized as safe. 00:34:50.990 --> 00:34:54.990 Food safety is very challenging again, because you don't know what you don't know. 00:34:55.070 --> 00:35:08.030 And so, in general, if you look at foods that have been consumed for hundreds of years, we generally recognize them as safe because so many people have eaten it for so long, we assume it's mostly safe, right? 00:35:08.510 --> 00:35:15.150 And so this is what is present for things like vanilla plantifolia and vanilla telutensis. 00:35:15.389 --> 00:35:25.309 But for vanilla pompona, we don't have that status where you can legally sell it as vanilla pompona extract because it hasn't been granted that status. 00:35:25.389 --> 00:35:36.270 And that's true for a number of different, mostly wild rare plants, but certainly vanilla pompona is consumed by Native peoples all around the world. 00:35:36.430 --> 00:35:40.910 So I thought it was relatively risk-free for my own self, especially because it is delicious. 00:35:41.070 --> 00:35:41.230 Yeah. 00:35:41.390 --> 00:35:44.670 So you grow these yourself at your home, I assume? 00:35:44.990 --> 00:35:45.470 We do. 00:35:45.550 --> 00:35:47.550 Um, so we've got them at the research center. 00:35:47.630 --> 00:35:49.630 We we have vanilla pompona at the research center. 00:35:49.710 --> 00:35:58.110 We also have growers that are interested in vanilla pompona, even with the challenges associated with the lack of this legal definition. 00:35:58.510 --> 00:36:01.870 You cannot call vanilla pompona extract. 00:36:02.030 --> 00:36:08.510 You cannot call it vanilla extract because the legal definition only allows plantifolia and tuhetensis. 00:36:08.910 --> 00:36:15.150 But again, growers in southern Florida are excited about new, novel, and niche opportunities. 00:36:15.390 --> 00:36:18.110 And so pompona is an interesting species. 00:36:18.190 --> 00:36:19.070 It grows fast. 00:36:19.150 --> 00:36:24.110 The beans are large, it's resistant to fungal problems that plague vanilla plantifolia. 00:36:24.270 --> 00:36:25.470 So they think, why not? 00:36:25.630 --> 00:36:35.550 So then we go back again to zero and say, here's a collection of different clones we've collected, which ones grow the best, and then make those available to our growers to experiment with. 00:36:37.310 --> 00:36:44.110 I know it's a very real problem that is causing headaches for growers, but I am fascinated by the idea of vanilla theft. 00:36:44.430 --> 00:36:49.230 The fact that people are sneaking onto farms to engage in vanilla heists is just wild. 00:36:49.630 --> 00:36:57.790 I did some digging online after our conversation and found that this is a major problem in a lot of places where vanilla is grown, including Mexico and Madagascar. 00:36:58.110 --> 00:37:01.070 That wasn't something I was aware of at all before this conversation. 00:37:02.030 --> 00:37:09.470 Vanilla gets used extensively these days in craft brewing, most commonly in dessert-inspired pastry stouts and related beers. 00:37:10.110 --> 00:37:17.070 These beers often include cacao, coffee, or other baking spices, so vanilla fits right in as a familiar flavor note. 00:37:17.630 --> 00:37:28.030 But because of its intended role in support of other flavors in these beers, most brewers are looking for a classic, recognizable flavor most people would just know as vanilla. 00:37:28.430 --> 00:37:34.190 But some brewers are highlighting the nuances of single origin vanillas by showcasing them in specific beers. 00:37:34.990 --> 00:37:43.470 At the 2023 Denver Rare Beer Tasting, I got in a conversation with Sean Bucken, the founder and head brewer at Denver Cerebral Brewing. 00:37:43.950 --> 00:37:54.990 Sean was pouring vanilla rye Herebee Monsters, a 14.5% Imperial stout aged in rye whiskey barrels and conditioned on a blend of multiple single-origin vanillas. 00:37:55.310 --> 00:38:04.830 The beer was a liquid tribute to the amazing vanilla orchid, and I recently reached out to Sean to talk more about this beer and his other beers highlighting specific vanillas. 00:38:04.990 --> 00:38:09.310 At the outset, I asked him to tell us about vanilla rye Here We Monsters. 00:38:09.790 --> 00:38:12.430 So that's the second time we've done that beer. 00:38:12.510 --> 00:38:21.230 Um both have been a little bit different in terms of the base spirit barrels that we used, and then we did switch the vanillas out uh each time. 00:38:21.390 --> 00:38:27.870 I mean, in part because we like trying new products and we're always exploring new vanilla varietals. 00:38:27.950 --> 00:38:32.110 So it was nice for us to kind of get a showcase of uh three new ones. 00:38:32.269 --> 00:38:47.630 The first time we did that batch, it was, if I'm not mistaken, Madagascar, Tahitian, and Ugandan, trying to play in a lot of different flavor profiles and blend so that um we could really create the most unique vanilla experience possible. 00:38:47.710 --> 00:38:58.590 And then this time we used uh Peruvian, Hawaiian, and Marquesis Islands vanilla in a base imperial stout that we aged in Thomas Handy Sazerac barrels for 31 months. 00:38:58.830 --> 00:39:06.110 So using all those different origins, let's talk a little bit about the variations in those and the flavors and aromas that you're gonna get. 00:39:06.190 --> 00:39:12.269 I think when most people hear vanilla, they have one particular thing in mind just from you know typical baking use. 00:39:12.670 --> 00:39:17.390 Talk a little bit about some of the differences in the sensory characteristics of those origins. 00:39:17.790 --> 00:39:22.350 I mean, we kind of went into it thinking the same thing when we first got into using vanilla. 00:39:22.430 --> 00:39:30.510 Um, I'm not a baker, so I'm not, you know, I didn't have that background knowing that there was dozens of varietals out there for us

to choose from. 00:39:30.750 --> 00:39:37.390 But in in terms of the first batch that we used, I think that was the the most clear distinction between varietals. 00:39:37.790 --> 00:39:46.110 Um Madagascar vanilla is by all accounts pretty much what what anybody would uh imagine when they're thinking vanilla. 00:39:46.269 --> 00:39:53.630 It's you know, it's sweet, it's creamy, uh, it's give you a little bit of that marshmallowy vanilla, but it's not over the top. 00:39:53.790 --> 00:39:55.630 I think it kind of hits all notes. 00:39:55.870 --> 00:40:02.750 Uh Ugandan is a really cool one in that it offers some depth and woody notes. 00:40:02.910 --> 00:40:14.670 I always think of it as uh like a milk chocolate raisinette because you get some really dark fruit in there, um mixed with some of what you would normally associate with vanilla. 00:40:14.990 --> 00:40:21.390 And then the Tahitian is more um, to me at least, like the inside of an Oreo. 00:40:21.630 --> 00:40:27.710 It's got that like cookies and cream um character that that we love to use. 00:40:27.950 --> 00:40:32.590 Um I mean, honestly, all of those are are on the top of our list. 00:40:32.830 --> 00:40:38.990 But for the the second batch, we we have a provider, uh Jones and Co. 00:40:39.230 --> 00:40:42.910 out of, I believe they're out of California, that they source from all over the world. 00:40:42.990 --> 00:40:52.269 And we took four of their five plus rated vanillas and we put one pound into each oak barrel that we used. 00:40:52.510 --> 00:40:58.110 And ultimately one of those vanillas didn't end up making the cut into that final beer. 00:40:58.190 --> 00:41:00.430 Uh, nothing against that vanilla origin. 00:41:00.670 --> 00:41:08.350 It was just a little too uh, it came across as very perfumey, and it just wasn't what we were going for in that base beer. 00:41:08.590 --> 00:41:11.390 But that was the first time that we'd used a lot of those vanillas. 00:41:11.630 --> 00:41:21.470 So we were kind of going in blind, and I think from memory, we really liked the the Peruvian, it was a really big bean. 00:41:21.550 --> 00:41:26.269 Like the bean size changes so significantly between origins, that was surprising as well. 00:41:26.510 --> 00:41:38.110 But it had so much of that vanilla caviar on the inside, but we also got a little bit of spice from it, like almost a little bit of baking spice, something that you'd associate with like Mexican hot chocolate. 00:41:38.269 --> 00:41:41.070 Uh, so we really like that depth on the back end. 00:41:41.230 --> 00:41:54.190 The Hawaiian also came across as more of a of a brighter vanilla for us, something maybe a cross between how we associate the uh Tahitian and the Madagascar. 00:41:54.510 --> 00:41:57.950 And it just kind of covered that that top note for us in this beer. 00:41:58.030 --> 00:42:01.870 And then the Marques Islands was really just that cream, yeah. 00:42:02.030 --> 00:42:08.590 I guess that like marshmallow depth and like cream filling is how I describe it. 00:42:09.390 --> 00:42:22.030 Do you find that the aromas that you get from the vanilla itself, as just holding it in your hand, comes through pretty directly in the beer, or is that change at all in the process? 00:42:22.990 --> 00:42:24.190 It's pretty direct. 00:42:24.350 --> 00:42:29.950 Um, the the one that we used, it was a Guatemalan bean, and it was a really, really great bean. 00:42:30.030 --> 00:42:30.670 It smelled great. 00:42:30.750 --> 00:42:33.070 We've used it in other projects, and it turned out well. 00:42:33.150 --> 00:42:42.990 Um, for you know, whatever the case was, uh it just came off as really perfumey and had like almost like an extracty alcohol note to it in the beer. 00:42:43.150 --> 00:42:50.590 So I can't, you know, I don't know that one, but the um the other ones for what it's worth, I feel like it's a pretty direct one-to-one. 00:42:51.150 --> 00:42:58.910 So when you're blending multiple different origins together, does that does that kind of iron out some of those differences? 00:42:59.070 --> 00:43:04.510 I mean, what what goes into selecting a different blend of those rather than just a single origin? 00:43:05.470 --> 00:43:06.350 Yeah, it can. 00:43:06.510 --> 00:43:10.590 I think uh we always look at it and and we do trial blends on these two. 00:43:10.830 --> 00:43:20.110 So a lot of them uh we will do individual oak barrels dosed with a vanilla bean so we can really get a good idea of what we're getting out of that bean. 00:43:20.269 --> 00:43:34.910 Tend to go on the lighter end in dosing and then just use time as our extraction tool so we can kind of pull it when we get the character that we want instead of overdosing and you know there's no real correction there. 00:43:35.230 --> 00:43:44.510 So yeah, I think that we do the the multiple uh blends quite often, and I think more often than not, we're actually just getting more character. 00:43:44.750 --> 00:43:49.150 I don't really find that it that it like flattens them all out. 00:43:49.310 --> 00:43:56.430 It can if you go too far or you use vanilla beans that do not work very compatibly. 00:43:56.590 --> 00:44:04.990 I think if you have some that are all achieving a very similar flavor profile, you're gonna get a pretty flat vanilla character in that in that space. 00:44:05.150 --> 00:44:25.470 But if you're really looking for that like cream note, a little bit of that like classic marshmallow that people always want out of vanilla, but a little bit of those complementary wood, leather, tobacco, chocolate characters that you can actually get out of vanilla, I think that's where you get the most complex character. 00:44:25.950 --> 00:44:31.790 Given that this beer in particular, uh the Hereby Monsters was aged in rye barrels. 00:44:31.950 --> 00:44:35.790 Vanilla obviously is a note that you can get from oak aging. 00:44:36.110 --> 00:44:43.310 Do you find that the vanilla amplifies the barrel character or vice versa,

or are they just parts in a whole? 00:44:43.790 --> 00:44:44.510 Oh, definitely. 00:44:44.590 --> 00:44:46.510 We pick barrels specifically for vanilla. 00:44:46.670 --> 00:44:49.950 So we do shoot for barrels that already have a little bit of that character. 00:44:50.030 --> 00:44:52.350 So that we do that with all adjuncts. 00:44:52.510 --> 00:45:01.150 If uh if a barrel set isn't really exemplifying any characters of what we're about to put in it, we find it just doesn't work as well. 00:45:01.390 --> 00:45:08.110 Unless it's a beer that we're hitting so hard with adjuncts that we're we're not using the barrel as a focus. 00:45:08.269 --> 00:45:20.190 But most of our barrel-age beers showcase barrel origin and barrel character first, and then we're using vanilla and other adjuncts to supplement that. 00:45:20.350 --> 00:45:25.470 So we're looking for that vanilla from the oak as a character. 00:45:25.630 --> 00:45:31.790 And if those barrels meet that direction, great, then we start moving in that in that space and complement it. 00:45:32.190 --> 00:45:35.070 Can you talk a little bit about how this actually gets used? 00:45:35.150 --> 00:45:37.470 How are you adding vanilla and at what point? 00:45:37.870 --> 00:45:45.790 Yeah, so we do it um on our barrelage beers in particular, we add it into the oak barrel, and we've tried different methods. 00:45:45.950 --> 00:46:03.310 Um, we've done uh we've always done hand processed, and then at one point it just became so labor intensive that we were trying to, we were hoping that running it through a Vitamix or something like that would speed up the process and give us the same or better extraction and flavor. 00:46:03.550 --> 00:46:14.590 Unfortunately, uh the testing that we did showed that the hand processed vanilla was always superior, in our opinion, on uh from a flavor perspective. 00:46:14.750 --> 00:46:28.269 So what we do is uh, and that's probably one of my remaining jobs that I uh I still take on myself uh for all of this, but it's just slicing vanilla beans directly all the way through. 00:46:28.430 --> 00:46:43.070 Uh, use a spoon, scrape out the caviar, and then chop the beans up so that way we get really good surface area extraction, pull all the caviar out, and then we're trying to maximize that surface area that's open to beer from the inside and outside of the bean. 00:46:43.310 --> 00:46:46.590 And so, how long does that end up in contact with the beer? 00:46:46.910 --> 00:46:49.950 One to three months, depending on how well I planned. 00:46:50.590 --> 00:46:51.230 Sure. 00:46:51.630 --> 00:47:00.510 Uh, do you have other origins that you are wanting to try or other projects of ways to use vanilla that you want to try? 00:47:00.910 --> 00:47:07.950 Uh yeah, in terms of origins, there's always like the super, you know, quote unquote hype vanilla beans that I uh would love to try out. 00:47:08.110 --> 00:47:13.070 I don't think that equates to quality in all aspects, but I think they look fun to play with. 00:47:13.150 --> 00:47:19.230 Some of the uh Brazilian beans are just massive in size, and I I think it'd be fun to play with. 00:47:19.310 --> 00:47:24.910 Plus, they're easier to process because the small thin ones are just so much more work. 00:47:24.990 --> 00:47:25.790 Uh so we'd love to. 00:47:26.190 --> 00:47:30.030 Do that and play around with some of those more like rare beans. 00:47:30.269 --> 00:47:41.550 But in general, I think we're we're really just enjoying the fact that there's there's probably 20 vanilla varietals out there we haven't even tried yet that we're looking to get our hands on and start playing with. 00:47:41.710 --> 00:47:49.870 And you know, we've also found some that we've really, really enjoyed that we're going to continue to use year to year because it is an agricultural product. 00:47:49.950 --> 00:47:56.110 So every year you're going to see slight variations in that in that being you can't just write it off as one flavor profile. 00:47:56.510 --> 00:48:06.670 On the consumer side of things, do you find that your fans respond to the storytelling of we used this particular origin or we used these different origins in this beer? 00:48:06.910 --> 00:48:10.510 Yeah, I think so, especially the the higher end products that we do. 00:48:10.670 --> 00:48:22.510 We do use vanilla in um like some IPAs and things like that as a supplementary adjunct uh to drive a certain character in the beer, but I don't I don't think that gets more lost, uh the storytelling there. 00:48:22.590 --> 00:48:33.870 But I think when we've used it in mixed culture beers in the past, when we've used it in barreled stout, I think people really do care about where we're sourcing ingredients from and what that flavor profile is. 00:48:34.269 --> 00:48:36.350 I want to talk briefly about cacao. 00:48:36.670 --> 00:48:38.750 I believe you've used that in a few different beers. 00:48:38.830 --> 00:48:43.310 Can you talk a little bit about uh the cacao that you've used in brewing? 00:48:43.630 --> 00:48:47.310 Yeah, we've used cacao nibs for quite a while and gone through a few different sources. 00:48:47.470 --> 00:48:48.990 We've definitely got our favorites there. 00:48:49.150 --> 00:48:55.070 We don't have the same variety to choose from from the sources we've used, which is honestly kind of helpful. 00:48:55.470 --> 00:49:02.830 I think there can be a paralysis by analysis when you look at a you know a two-page sheet of vanillas that you haven't you haven't worked with before. 00:49:02.990 --> 00:49:08.910 But we work with right now a chocolate provider, I believe they're out of Illinois called Ethereal. 00:49:09.150 --> 00:49:12.990 And we've really enjoyed almost everything we've gotten from them. 00:49:13.070 --> 00:49:17.630 But I'd say our our absolute favorite when it's in stock is the Filipino cacao nib. 00:49:17.790 --> 00:49:23.790 It's just what we're looking for with that is similar to coffee, is a low acid

cacao nib. 00:49:23.950 --> 00:49:32.350 So we're looking for that heavier roast, heavier chocolate, milk to dark chocolate notes with any of the depth that we can get outside of that. 00:49:32.430 --> 00:49:35.070 And that Filipino one is just so fudgy that it was. 00:49:35.470 --> 00:49:39.710 Is that the new uh Malinaba Long origin from Philippines? 00:49:40.110 --> 00:49:41.070 I don't know. 00:49:41.230 --> 00:49:45.950 We don't get the or like the specific origin on the cacao nib bags, so it could it could be. 00:49:46.030 --> 00:49:47.790 I just know that it is newer to them. 00:49:47.870 --> 00:49:50.910 I think it's been the past year and a half, two years we've been using it. 00:49:51.070 --> 00:49:54.110 Uh so they they're just listing you know the country origins. 00:49:54.190 --> 00:49:56.350 That's all we see on the bulk bags. 00:49:56.670 --> 00:50:06.430 Yeah, that is a newer origin to them, and uh it looks like a really exciting option, kind of like Ghana, where it's just gonna give you that straight ahead chocolate fudge flavor. 00:50:06.670 --> 00:50:15.470 Yeah, we Ghana's another favorite, and then uh Belize is also a big hit for us with a little bit more of that red fruit note in there. 00:50:15.710 --> 00:50:16.110 Cool. 00:50:16.350 --> 00:50:18.910 What story are you telling with vanilla? 00:50:19.310 --> 00:50:24.350 I mean, for us, I think it it's similar to stories that we tell with other agricultural products. 00:50:24.510 --> 00:50:35.550 With our IPAs, we're telling the story of hops and and hop origins and you know the labor of the farmers and the labor of everyone involved in the in the process of that. 00:50:35.710 --> 00:50:37.630 And with vanilla, I think it's the same thing. 00:50:37.710 --> 00:50:44.910 We we don't have any direct relationship based on the location of where vanilla is grown and our travel budget, frankly. 00:50:44.990 --> 00:50:47.710 But we you know, we'd love to showcase the same thing. 00:50:47.870 --> 00:50:50.910 Like this is an agricultural product that changes year over year. 00:50:51.070 --> 00:51:01.790 Um, a lot of these vanilla farmers are subject to extreme climate changes and you know, heat drought and things that really affect their livelihood. 00:51:02.030 --> 00:51:22.830 So our ability to source incredible vanilla beans from areas of the world that need that income through an importer that makes sure that they're getting paid a living wage for that product and telling that story all the way to the consumer so that they're able to realize, you know, that then we have now have customers that that talk about what vanillas they enjoy. 00:51:22.910 --> 00:51:27.470 And I think that's just something that we haven't we didn't see in beer 10 years ago. 00:51:27.710 --> 00:51:42.430 And there's a lot of good breweries telling that same story, so I think it it takes you know the whole industry, but I think we're getting to a point where people realize the value in paying for something like this and the work that goes into it. 00:51:43.870 --> 00:51:57.550 If you want to hear more about Ethereal, the company Sean sources his cacao from, you can go back and listen to episode 8 when we interviewed Michael Irvin and Marisa Allen of Ethereal to talk all about their company and the philosophy behind what they do. 00:51:57.710 --> 00:51:59.550 I'll link to that in the show notes. 00:51:59.870 --> 00:52:11.150 While I've done some asking around, I have not been able to find a Bean-Dabar chocolate maker working with different single-origin vanillas to highlight their characteristics in chocolate, which really seems like a missed opportunity. 00:52:11.390 --> 00:52:19.070 If you know of a maker doing this, or if you are a chocolate maker and you agree that it would be an interesting project, please reach out and we'll talk about it. 00:52:19.390 --> 00:52:24.350 I hope this episode helps you appreciate how unique and varied vanilla really is. 00:52:24.590 --> 00:52:33.150 Far from being an avatar for homogeneity, vanilla is a fascinating and diverse spice with a wide range of expressions that reward attention. 00:52:33.470 --> 00:52:34.269 Thanks to Dr. 00:52:34.350 --> 00:52:37.150 Alan Chambers and Sean Buchan for coming on the show today. 00:52:37.310 --> 00:52:38.590 Thanks to all of you for listening. 00:52:38.750 --> 00:52:41.390 I hope you enjoyed this episode of Bean to Barstool.