Full Transcript for From International Student to Father and Leader Raymond’s Migration Journey in Aotearoa New Zealand

00:05:15.750 afternoon. I was shocked when I first came to 00:05:15.750 --> 00:05:19.050 New Zealand. Yes, and I was thinking, holy cow, 00:05:19.149 --> 00:05:21.649 what happened? You know, is there some sort of 00:05:21.649 --> 00:05:26.509 rules that says they can't open after five or 00:05:26.509 --> 00:05:29.730 on the weekends? I was shocked. Yeah, that was 00:05:29.730 --> 00:05:32.569 a huge shock for me. It was 2001 when I first 00:05:32.569 --> 00:05:36.639 came to New Zealand. So for me, it was a real 00:05:36.639 --> 00:05:40.899 adjustment of how Malaysia was like. You could 00:05:40.899 --> 00:05:44.540 go out any time of the day. You can just find 00:05:44.540 --> 00:05:47.540 somewhere to eat. You can still shop somewhere, 00:05:47.779 --> 00:05:50.360 look at things. Even supermarkets or shopping 00:05:50.360 --> 00:05:54.000 malls, they open until 10 p .m. Over here, 5, 00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:58.699 everything is gone. I went to, in fact, on a 00:05:58.699 --> 00:06:02.339 few occasions, I went to some shopping malls. 00:06:02.829 --> 00:06:06.490 suddenly realized how come the front gates was 00:06:06.490 --> 00:06:11.209 closed and the only thing that was open was I 00:06:11.209 --> 00:06:14.009 think at that time McDonald's or Fairfax the 00:06:14.009 --> 00:06:17.810 rest was all everything shut no lights nothing 00:06:17.810 --> 00:06:21.350 and I thought did I come late and look at my 00:06:21.350 --> 00:06:25.889 watch and no it's still pretty early yeah because 00:06:25.889 --> 00:06:29.910 obviously back then the accessible to like internet 00:06:29.910 --> 00:06:33.480 was terrible as well and yeah you wouldn't find 00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:36.399 these sort of information online anyway. Do you 00:06:36.399 --> 00:06:39.519 remember where you lived at the time? Yes, Sandringham. 00:06:39.639 --> 00:06:45.079 Yes, I was living around Sandringham area, more 00:06:45.079 --> 00:06:48.399 Sandringham, Mount Albert. So it was, in fact, 00:06:48.480 --> 00:06:52.259 pretty close. I would say walking distance, probably 00:06:52.259 --> 00:06:56.040 about 10, 15 minutes to St. Luke's Mall, international 00:06:56.040 --> 00:07:01.250 students. High school? High school. Another funny 00:07:01.250 --> 00:07:04.430 thing was when I first started high school here, 00:07:04.589 --> 00:07:09.009 I thought back in Malaysia I was speaking English. 00:07:09.209 --> 00:07:12.569 Yes. Literally, I was thinking that I was speaking 00:07:12.569 --> 00:07:15.709 English. Yes. But when I first started in high 00:07:15.709 --> 00:07:18.310 school, I could not understand their English. 00:07:18.550 --> 00:07:21.470 Yeah. It took me, yeah? Same, when I was at the 00:07:21.470 --> 00:07:25.310 university. It took me like six months to adjust 00:07:25.310 --> 00:07:29.449 my hearing tones to New Zealand English. Same. 00:07:30.550 --> 00:07:34.889 And, well, I mean, yes, from back then until 00:07:34.889 --> 00:07:39.189 now, this whole sort of 30

plus years journey, 00:07:39.410 --> 00:07:43.189 New Zealand definitely has changed quite drastically 00:07:43.189 --> 00:07:49.250 to me in a better way. Look at these days, even 00:07:49.250 --> 00:07:54.629 in Auckland, two out of five people in Auckland 00:07:54.629 --> 00:07:58.389 were born overseas. And then we have like... 00:07:58.480 --> 00:08:05.339 way over 200 ethnicities in Auckland itself. 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:12.019 That's right. So that has enriched Auckland as 00:08:12.019 --> 00:08:16.180 well as the whole country, I hope. You know, 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:20.779 I sincerely hope, you know, because we can only 00:08:20.779 --> 00:08:25.360 advance by interacting with others if we don't 00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:28.699 open up. When I say we, as in New Zealanders, 00:08:28.759 --> 00:08:33.600 if we don't open up the country to learn, to 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:39.440 absorb or to upskill, then, you know, New Zealand 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:43.179 can never go beyond what they hope to achieve. 00:08:43.379 --> 00:08:46.840 So, yeah, that's why I think that having all 00:08:46.840 --> 00:08:50.600 these influx of migrants as well as refugees 00:08:50.600 --> 00:08:54.139 into the country, to me personally, is a good 00:08:54.139 --> 00:08:57.120 thing because coming from Malaysia, As you know, 00:08:57.159 --> 00:09:00.879 it's kind of like the hub. You know, you have 00:09:00.879 --> 00:09:04.679 so many migrants that are coming to Malaysia 00:09:04.679 --> 00:09:08.799 to reside in Malaysia because of the low -cost 00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:12.779 housing or affordable, more like affordable housing. 00:09:12.860 --> 00:09:18.000 And then as well as multicultural, multilingual 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:22.679 country, which is attracting a lot of people. 00:09:22.820 --> 00:09:26.629 But you're from the... Well, if you look at the 00:09:26.629 --> 00:09:30.610 geographically, I'm coming from East Malaysia. 00:09:30.710 --> 00:09:34.970 So it's on the island, Borneo Island. I come 00:09:34.970 --> 00:09:39.610 from not so big city. It's a city called Miri. 00:09:39.629 --> 00:09:45.350 Ah, okay. Yes. And I was born in a different 00:09:45.350 --> 00:09:49.429 city, but pretty much I grew up in Miri. And 00:09:49.429 --> 00:09:52.929 I have lots of good friends and family members, 00:09:53.309 --> 00:09:58.450 you know, still. Back home. Your parents? My 00:09:58.450 --> 00:10:00.649 parents are here. They've been living in New 00:10:00.649 --> 00:10:05.029 Zealand for the last, I would say, eight years. 00:10:05.090 --> 00:10:08.970 Okay. Yeah. My mom, in particular, enjoys the 00:10:08.970 --> 00:10:12.909 weather here. Yes, it can be cold at times during 00:10:12.909 --> 00:10:17.549 winter and all that. But overall, she enjoys 00:10:17.549 --> 00:10:22.850 the quietness in New Zealand, particularly in 00:10:22.850 --> 00:10:27.710 her home. and she both my parents surrounded 00:10:27.710 --> 00:10:32.230 with really good neighbors around them and yeah 00:10:32.230 --> 00:10:35.870 and which to me being the eldest of the among 00:10:35.870 --> 00:10:39.750 my siblings as you know especially for the Malaysian 00:10:39.750 --> 00:10:43.730 Chinese I personally feel that you know I need 00:10:43.730 --> 00:10:45.789 to take on that burdens I need to take on that 00:10:46.110 --> 00:10:49.149 responsibilities I need to take on make the efforts 00:10:49.149 --> 00:10:53.070 to try my best to look after my elderly parents 00:10:53.070 --> 00:10:57.029 just to set examples for my children not saying 00:10:57.029 --> 00:10:59.970 that they have to look after my wife and I just 00:10:59.970 --> 00:11:02.769 the fact that you know that's I would say that's 00:11:02.769 --> 00:11:06.210 the Chinese virtue or the Malaysian Chinese virtue 00:11:06.210 --> 00:11:12.710 you know like I want them to carry on perhaps 00:11:12.710 --> 00:11:18.659 if they want to. The traditions and also like 00:11:18.659 --> 00:11:22.080 festive seasons and all that sort of stuff. We 00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:26.740 don't celebrate a lot of them but they know quite 00:11:26.740 --> 00:11:30.120 a bit about some of the Chinese festive seasons. 00:11:30.750 --> 00:11:33.129 Because I know what you mean. It's not necessarily 00:11:33.129 --> 00:11:35.389 like they have to look after you. But what you're 00:11:35.389 --> 00:11:38.889 trying to instill for your children is they learn 00:11:38.889 --> 00:11:41.570 about gratitude and appreciation. Correct. Just 00:11:41.570 --> 00:11:44.490 like your father worked hard and made you have 00:11:44.490 --> 00:11:47.929 a good education. And so you just want to show 00:11:47.929 --> 00:11:52.590 them your appreciation. Yeah, yeah. And my parents, 00:11:52.649 --> 00:11:56.500 in fact, adore my children a lot. because they 00:11:56.500 --> 00:11:59.059 are the only grandchildren for my parents. I 00:11:59.059 --> 00:12:00.899 never grew up with grandparents, but I believe 00:12:00.899 --> 00:12:03.539 the best kind of love that you get from unconditional 00:12:03.539 --> 00:12:06.820 love is from your grandparents. Oh, yeah. I was 00:12:06.820 --> 00:12:10.279 lucky enough growing up, got to know both sides 00:12:10.279 --> 00:12:13.279 of my grandparents and care by them and so forth. 00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:17.220 I haven't told you, you know, I will be accompanying 00:12:17.220 --> 00:12:21.820 my parents to China. No, you did. We are planning 00:12:21.820 --> 00:12:25.870 a trip. to China with some of my dad's siblings. 00:12:26.070 --> 00:12:29.110 So basically, all of them, including myself, 00:12:29.389 --> 00:12:33.370 were born in Malaysia. My grandparents, my great 00:12:33.370 --> 00:12:35.990 -grandparents, they came from China. So it's 00:12:35.990 --> 00:12:39.470 retracing the roots. They managed to find out 00:12:39.470 --> 00:12:42.289 where they... Oh, yeah. Awesome. Yes. Where? 00:12:42.509 --> 00:12:46.870 Do you know where? It's in Fuzhou. They

located 00:12:46.870 --> 00:12:50.909 the old house, the ancestry house, whereby... 00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:55.620 They are still family members living there. Who 00:12:55.620 --> 00:12:59.720 managed to do that? I don't know. Word of mouth. 00:12:59.820 --> 00:13:03.120 One thing lead to another, you know, because 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:06.840 I would say from my uncle's friends, according 00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:10.139 to my dad, if I'm not mistaken, because they 00:13:10.139 --> 00:13:13.860 frequently, my uncle's friends, apparently they 00:13:13.860 --> 00:13:18.179 go to China and back to the village quite regularly. 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:21.580 by just word of mouth asking around and then, 00:13:21.639 --> 00:13:24.379 boom, one thing lead to another, boom. Yeah. 00:13:25.080 --> 00:13:28.059 I don't know at all. Like, well, I still have 00:13:28.059 --> 00:13:32.120 no idea. Yes. Even though none of us were born 00:13:32.120 --> 00:13:37.240 in China, but just growing up, my dad used to 00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:41.259 share quite a bit of how my grandparents came 00:13:41.259 --> 00:13:45.039 over from China and my great -grandparents came 00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:48.929 over from China and so forth. I think it's, More 00:13:48.929 --> 00:13:51.690 like connecting the missing links for my dad 00:13:51.690 --> 00:13:55.389 and his siblings. And for me, it's more to be 00:13:55.389 --> 00:13:59.389 there, to learn my whakapapa as well, and also 00:13:59.389 --> 00:14:03.870 to support my dad. So go back to being an international 00:14:03.870 --> 00:14:06.529 student. Like when you first came to New Zealand, 00:14:06.570 --> 00:14:09.509 what was the biggest challenge besides the talking? 00:14:10.570 --> 00:14:13.610 Besides the supermarket culture shock, the other 00:14:13.610 --> 00:14:16.409 challenge was, like I said, the language barrier 00:14:16.409 --> 00:14:20.039 took me. It literally took me six months. So 00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:23.860 when I first started in the college, because 00:14:23.860 --> 00:14:28.120 I didn't know what they were saying. So ending 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:31.440 up writing, conversing through English, written 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:35.019 English for the first six months. And after that, 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:39.759 boom, yep. And then the other bit of... Yes, 00:14:39.779 --> 00:14:42.019 going back to that, isn't it fascinating that 00:14:42.019 --> 00:14:44.919 somehow your ear just like suddenly switched, 00:14:45.100 --> 00:14:48.820 like the switch just turned on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:14:49.659 --> 00:14:54.620 Exactly. That's how I suppose like for me grabbing 00:14:54.620 --> 00:14:58.779 or learning a new language as well, you know, 00:14:58.779 --> 00:15:02.259 just first and foremost, obviously, listen, listen, 00:15:02.419 --> 00:15:06.120 listen. and then slowly try to make sense of 00:15:06.120 --> 00:15:09.740 some of the simple words, sentences, and then 00:15:09.740 --> 00:15:13.899 slowly try to open my mouth to say it. And one 00:15:13.899 --> 00:15:16.879 thing lead to another, boom. You know, like seriously, 00:15:17.139 --> 00:15:20.840 even for me, when I was in Malaysia, the few 00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:23.799 things that I, well, the few languages that I 00:15:23.799 --> 00:15:27.860 used to speak was my own dialect, obviously, 00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:31.539 Fuzhou. And then... Mandarin, spoke to friends 00:15:31.539 --> 00:15:35.100 in Mandarin and then English and Malay. That's 00:15:35.100 --> 00:15:39.700 pretty much it. So Miri, where I grew up, I have 00:15:39.700 --> 00:15:44.799 a lot of Hakka friends. So by going out, interacting 00:15:44.799 --> 00:15:49.700 with them, I learn Hakka. I won't say I speak 00:15:49.700 --> 00:15:53.419 better. Definitely I can listen way better than 00:15:53.419 --> 00:15:57.700 a lot of others in terms of spoken Hakka is a 00:15:57.700 --> 00:16:02.509 bit rusty. Hakka is hard. Yeah. And then so I 00:16:02.509 --> 00:16:05.889 learned Hokkien and I learned Cantonese when 00:16:05.889 --> 00:16:09.450 I came to New Zealand when I started in uni. 00:16:09.610 --> 00:16:14.990 Yeah. Yeah. Because, well, I don't want to endow 00:16:14.990 --> 00:16:18.629 too much into how I learned those two other dialects. 00:16:18.669 --> 00:16:23.350 Yeah. So, but yeah, I learned Cantonese and Hokkien. 00:16:23.450 --> 00:16:25.929 Definitely. I learned Hokkien. Cantonese from 00:16:25.929 --> 00:16:28.389 Hong Kong friends. I learned Hokkien from other 00:16:28.389 --> 00:16:31.190 Malaysian friends because they were from sort 00:16:31.190 --> 00:16:34.649 of West Malaysia. And I also have like friends 00:16:34.649 --> 00:16:37.889 from Kuching, Sarawak that speaks Hokkien. So 00:16:37.889 --> 00:16:40.889 one thing leads to another. Just adding up, you 00:16:40.889 --> 00:16:44.169 know, all these vocabulary, just adding up, you 00:16:44.169 --> 00:16:48.509 know, all these language or dialects. Yeah. But 00:16:48.509 --> 00:16:52.429 I mean, my wife tends to say that our children 00:16:52.429 --> 00:16:57.049 are very good at picking up new languages. I 00:16:57.049 --> 00:17:00.129 said, yeah, well, lucky. Lucky for them. That's 00:17:00.129 --> 00:17:03.549 why I said that even, like I said to you just 00:17:03.549 --> 00:17:06.809 now, New Zealand, especially Auckland now, having 00:17:06.809 --> 00:17:10.670 so many groups of different ethnicities, we could 00:17:10.670 --> 00:17:15.190 literally learn new languages. May not be extensive, 00:17:15.549 --> 00:17:20.069 but even the basic greeting like hello or try 00:17:20.069 --> 00:17:24.430 to adopt that and learn. Personally, I find language 00:17:24.430 --> 00:17:28.230 so beautiful. Oh yeah, I always like to listen 00:17:28.230 --> 00:17:32.950 to people conversing in their native language 00:17:32.950 --> 00:17:36.470 because I've got a sort of like a weird, curious 00:17:36.470 --> 00:17:40.230 mind, I would say. I like to guess what they

00:17:40.230 --> 00:17:43.609 are talking about. I like to, you know, have 00:17:43.609 --> 00:17:48.450 a pat on myself by guessing correctly. In some 00:17:48.450 --> 00:17:53.059 way, just possibly it just... my weird nature 00:17:53.059 --> 00:17:56.599 you know I like to listen I mean like I was thinking 00:17:56.599 --> 00:18:00.640 you have that opportunity to expose oh yeah because 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:03.380 of your previous job yeah yeah because of my 00:18:03.380 --> 00:18:06.539 previous job I was I keep telling people because 00:18:06.539 --> 00:18:11.779 of what I did in in uh New Zealand police yeah 00:18:11.779 --> 00:18:16.640 for over 22 and a half years wow yeah wow uh 00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:21.309 I always We'll be grateful to New Zealand police 00:18:21.309 --> 00:18:25.970 for providing opportunities to interact with 00:18:25.970 --> 00:18:29.670 people from all walks of life, literally all 00:18:29.670 --> 00:18:32.269 walks of life. You were the very first Asian 00:18:32.269 --> 00:18:37.869 police liaison. Well, yes, I was the first Asian 00:18:37.869 --> 00:18:42.150 ethnicities, first full -time Asian liaison officer 00:18:42.150 --> 00:18:44.349 in the whole of New Zealand police. When was 00:18:44.349 --> 00:18:52.019 it? 19... 2001? No, 2003. In fact, I started 00:18:52.019 --> 00:18:56.660 in the police, working in the intelligence group. 00:18:56.740 --> 00:19:00.519 And then two years later, I applied for that 00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:03.400 position and I got that position. First, you 00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:06.180 were working for the police intelligence? Yeah, 00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:10.710 in the intelligence group. So I was just... working 00:19:10.710 --> 00:19:14.230 in there as one of the many analysts cool yeah 00:19:14.230 --> 00:19:18.109 wow yeah that's why I said even until today when 00:19:18.109 --> 00:19:22.089 I talk to people yeah I always say tell tell 00:19:22.089 --> 00:19:25.670 others I am truly grateful yeah yeah for the 00:19:25.670 --> 00:19:29.829 opportunity that I have I have had and the experience 00:19:29.829 --> 00:19:32.190 that I have gained through New Zealand Police 00:19:32.190 --> 00:19:36.049 even until today I still have some really good 00:19:36.049 --> 00:19:39.470 friends that are still serving police officers, 00:19:39.710 --> 00:19:43.730 or even some of the retired police officers, 00:19:43.910 --> 00:19:46.630 I'm still friends with them. I am still friends 00:19:46.630 --> 00:19:50.009 with them. Because, you know, you go through, 00:19:50.250 --> 00:19:54.210 yes, I'm not a sort of a front line. I wasn't 00:19:54.210 --> 00:19:57.029 any of the, you know, front line staff. Well, 00:19:57.029 --> 00:20:00.809 they call you swan. Swan officer. So I was a 00:20:00.809 --> 00:20:05.170 civilian, non -swan employee in the police, you 00:20:05.170 --> 00:20:07.730 know. Getting to know them, interacting with 00:20:07.730 --> 00:20:10.930 them, hearing their stories. Policing is, I would 00:20:10.930 --> 00:20:13.670 say, even until now, policing is tough. I know. 00:20:14.009 --> 00:20:19.150 To me personally, it's a respectful vocation, 00:20:19.150 --> 00:20:21.829 but it's really tough. It's really tough. Especially 00:20:21.829 --> 00:20:25.170 New Zealand police. Yes. Mentally, you need to 00:20:25.170 --> 00:20:30.470 be able to overcome a lot of issues, you know. 00:20:31.049 --> 00:20:35.460 So you need to be... physically as well as psychologically 00:20:35.460 --> 00:20:39.119 resilient. Because it's not like other countries 00:20:39.119 --> 00:20:41.720 where you can use violence or where you can resolve, 00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:44.559 you know, but here there are human rights and 00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:47.460 all that. They have a lot of limitations yet 00:20:47.460 --> 00:20:50.779 they still have to do their job. Yes, yes. Yeah, 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:55.319 that's why I have a lot of respect for my ex 00:20:55.319 --> 00:21:00.890 -colleagues. Yeah, every time when I get the 00:21:00.890 --> 00:21:03.849 chance to catch up with them, before I depart, 00:21:04.250 --> 00:21:09.410 I usually say to them, stay safe. Yes. Yeah, 00:21:09.529 --> 00:21:12.710 that's the only thing that I can wish them, you 00:21:12.710 --> 00:21:16.390 know, stay safe. Because you never know when 00:21:16.390 --> 00:21:18.609 they put on their uniform, when they go out and 00:21:18.609 --> 00:21:22.230 deal with people, they are literally putting 00:21:22.230 --> 00:21:28.599 their lives. Yeah, at risk and try to sometimes, 00:21:28.819 --> 00:21:33.539 yeah, it's quite mentally challenging. Yeah, 00:21:33.619 --> 00:21:36.880 I mean, I don't have the cut to be a sworn officer. 00:21:37.220 --> 00:21:42.140 So the, you know, but I am, even until now, I 00:21:42.140 --> 00:21:45.519 am very grateful to have that opportunity to 00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:48.099 work in police for so many years. Do you even 00:21:48.099 --> 00:21:52.160 getting like, like what drive you to apply for 00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:57.519 the job? Let's see. What was your degree when 00:21:57.519 --> 00:22:02.200 you finished? Uni? My undergraduate was majoring 00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:07.180 in statistics and operation research. So the 00:22:07.180 --> 00:22:12.160 intelligent analyst role that I applied for was 00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:18.619 try to utilize my statistics background. So I 00:22:18.619 --> 00:22:22.579 applied and I waited for... quite a few months. 00:22:22.740 --> 00:22:26.240 I literally forgotten about the job that I applied 00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:31.480 for and then received a phone call and they said, 00:22:31.640 --> 00:22:34.480 are you still keen to come in for an interview? 00:22:34.680 --> 00:22:38.039 And yeah, and I said, yeah, I went in and later 00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:41.420 on when I got the job, so it was just a, you 00:22:41.420 --> 00:22:44.339 know, one of those job ad that I applied for 00:22:44.339 --> 00:22:48.079

at that time. And when I Got that job, there 00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:53.079 was this inspector said to me, there were a lot 00:22:53.079 --> 00:22:56.299 of people applying for it way over that time. 00:22:56.420 --> 00:22:59.900 I think he was saying that way over 200 people 00:22:59.900 --> 00:23:02.740 applied for it and they interviewed a few and 00:23:02.740 --> 00:23:07.359 they selected me because I would say one was 00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:10.960 the skill set. The other two was, number two 00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:16.759 was the personality that they see. Wow. Just 00:23:16.759 --> 00:23:20.200 from there. Wow. Kind of just progressing. I 00:23:20.200 --> 00:23:22.539 didn't even know that was your, like, I thought 00:23:22.539 --> 00:23:25.440 it was like the police liaison. I didn't even 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:28.819 know. Oh, no, no. So from there, the intelligent 00:23:28.819 --> 00:23:33.019 analyst, there was an internal ad. Like, after 00:23:33.019 --> 00:23:36.460 I started working in the, as an analyst, they 00:23:36.460 --> 00:23:41.420 advertised a permanent full -time Asian liaison 00:23:41.420 --> 00:23:44.460 officer, the first one for the country. And I 00:23:44.460 --> 00:23:48.809 applied for it. And I got an interview. I think 00:23:48.809 --> 00:23:52.930 I wasn't mistaken. They interviewed about three 00:23:52.930 --> 00:23:57.430 or four people. And I was fortunate enough, lucky 00:23:57.430 --> 00:24:01.589 enough to get that position. Like I said, the 00:24:01.589 --> 00:24:07.450 first Asians and the first full -time Asian liaison 00:24:07.450 --> 00:24:11.769 officer. But prior to me, there was Asian liaison 00:24:11.769 --> 00:24:17.150 officer from the Pacifica background. And there 00:24:17.150 --> 00:24:21.990 was also Asian liaison officer on a portfolio 00:24:21.990 --> 00:24:26.569 basis. So I was the, yeah, the first Asians, 00:24:26.769 --> 00:24:29.809 the first full -time Asian liaison officer in 00:24:29.809 --> 00:24:32.569 the country. So pretty much you have to start 00:24:32.569 --> 00:24:36.309 everything from scratch. They give you training 00:24:36.309 --> 00:24:43.539 though, like do they? Well, obviously. They started 00:24:43.539 --> 00:24:47.359 that position because they needed and they were 00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:50.500 seeing the trend change and increase of migrants 00:24:50.500 --> 00:24:54.119 and so forth. And they needed someone from the 00:24:54.119 --> 00:24:58.859 organization to build up that capacity. So yeah, 00:24:58.980 --> 00:25:03.140 prior to that, obviously they have started engaging 00:25:03.140 --> 00:25:07.480 with some communities. But so when I took over, 00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:10.559 I just sort of, it's like a blank piece of paper. 00:25:11.049 --> 00:25:13.529 You draw whatever, you write whatever you want 00:25:13.529 --> 00:25:16.950 on there. So I just fill in the blanks pretty 00:25:16.950 --> 00:25:19.289 much, you know, from a blank piece of paper. 00:25:19.609

--> 00:25:23.589 Started doing a bit of research, engaging with 00:25:23.589 --> 00:25:28.529 people, finding out. who may be some of the key 00:25:28.529 --> 00:25:32.789 players in the so -called Asians community or 00:25:32.789 --> 00:25:36.029 even government sectors already started also 00:25:36.029 --> 00:25:39.589 engaging with the Asians community and so forth. 00:25:39.789 --> 00:25:42.670 So yeah, just slowly build on that. Were you 00:25:42.670 --> 00:25:46.990 based in? I was based in North Shore. Okay. So 00:25:46.990 --> 00:25:50.529 that district at that time when I first started 00:25:50.529 --> 00:25:55.670 covers North Shore, Waitakere and Rodney. Yeah, 00:25:55.829 --> 00:26:00.609 and then back then when I started in that role, 00:26:00.769 --> 00:26:04.430 majority of the so -called Asian population or 00:26:04.430 --> 00:26:08.630 the community were on the shore, on the North 00:26:08.630 --> 00:26:12.910 Shore, and for what's ideal for me, just interacting 00:26:12.910 --> 00:26:16.329 with the community. Obviously, in the very beginning, 00:26:16.549 --> 00:26:20.089 the community people were quite, I would say, 00:26:20.130 --> 00:26:24.230 wary, you know, like they were finding it odd. 00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:27.259 You know, why would police want to, or police 00:26:27.259 --> 00:26:30.960 representative want to engage with them? The 00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:34.980 feeling that they taken aback was, did we do 00:26:34.980 --> 00:26:38.039 something wrong? You know, because back in Asia, 00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:41.660 you know, police will only engage with individuals 00:26:41.660 --> 00:26:45.259 if you break the law. But the New Zealand police, 00:26:45.460 --> 00:26:47.859 like I said, you know, some of the leadership 00:26:47.859 --> 00:26:52.980 back then, they were quite bold and they saw 00:26:52.980 --> 00:26:56.230 the need. for a change. They saw the need to 00:26:56.230 --> 00:26:58.390 be proactive. Yes, that's true. I never thought 00:26:58.390 --> 00:27:01.910 about it. Even now, we took it for granted. The 00:27:01.910 --> 00:27:03.869 police will just engage with the community, get 00:27:03.869 --> 00:27:06.230 to know the people and all that. But in most 00:27:06.230 --> 00:27:07.730 of the Asian countries, they don't have that 00:27:07.730 --> 00:27:10.490 kind of community. Yes, the community policing 00:27:10.490 --> 00:27:14.390 concept, New Zealand police focus on that a lot. 00:27:14.470 --> 00:27:19.289 A lot of the crimes that police solve were being 00:27:19.289 --> 00:27:23.819 supported. Or information by the community people. 00:27:24.920 --> 00:27:30.180 So, because sometimes when you cannot find where 00:27:30.180 --> 00:27:32.980 to start, a good place would be people. These 00:27:32.980 --> 00:27:36.460 are the people that you could talk to. I would 00:27:36.460 --> 00:27:40.059 say in year 22, you must have seen a lot. Good 00:27:40.059 --> 00:27:43.720 and bad, yes. Both good and bad. Because I work 00:27:43.720 --> 00:27:45.339 in mental health, so I've seen a lot of mental 00:27:45.339 --> 00:27:49.420 health issues presented. And so... I'm very acutely 00:27:49.420 --> 00:27:53.099 aware about the mental health situations or what 00:27:53.099 --> 00:27:55.839 people have gone through because you have to 00:27:55.839 --> 00:28:00.240 respond when they need someone from the background. 00:28:00.599 --> 00:28:03.759 It could be anything. It could be as simple as 00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:08.220 to do a bit of translation or interpretations 00:28:08.220 --> 00:28:12.779 down to comforting them because of the traumas 00:28:12.779 --> 00:28:18.950 that they face. So, I mean... I was never legally 00:28:18.950 --> 00:28:22.750 trained in counselling, but I learned along the 00:28:22.750 --> 00:28:29.789 way how to just be there, listen. That's hard. 00:28:31.210 --> 00:28:34.809 Yeah, it's parts and parcels of the job, I suppose, 00:28:35.009 --> 00:28:38.210 you know. Because we're talking about any incidents 00:28:38.210 --> 00:28:42.589 that, including car crash, potentially self -infected, 00:28:42.589 --> 00:28:48.529 you know, right? Or murder. So that's why I said, 00:28:48.670 --> 00:28:52.509 you know, for police officers, they need to be 00:28:52.509 --> 00:28:56.150 physically and psychologically resilient. You 00:28:56.150 --> 00:29:00.509 know, it's not an easy vocation. Yes, putting 00:29:00.509 --> 00:29:03.869 on that uniform is very glorified. You know, 00:29:03.930 --> 00:29:10.109 you earn a lot of respect from community. However, 00:29:10.470 --> 00:29:14.140 you know, you carry that risk with you too. Potentially, 00:29:14.339 --> 00:29:17.700 yeah. Even for you, it's like 24 -7. Yes, true. 00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:21.579 Because, yeah, I used to be, I mean, I used to 00:29:21.579 --> 00:29:26.420 get, got issue with a work phone. So, yes, they 00:29:26.420 --> 00:29:29.599 say, yeah, when you're off work, you don't answer, 00:29:29.740 --> 00:29:34.420 but they call you. Yeah. Meaning something. Urgent. 00:29:34.519 --> 00:29:37.819 And that's why they needed your help. Would you 00:29:37.819 --> 00:29:42.339 be so cruel and say no? I already finished my 00:29:42.339 --> 00:29:44.980 work hours, you know, for the day and I don't 00:29:44.980 --> 00:29:46.740 want to listen to that. You can't. You can't 00:29:46.740 --> 00:29:49.019 because you know it's important this way. And 00:29:49.019 --> 00:29:52.279 then also because someone needed you to speak 00:29:52.279 --> 00:29:55.220 English or whatever. Yeah, for whatever reasons. 00:29:55.519 --> 00:30:00.880 So I suppose like having to be able to speak 00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:06.779 some additional language as well as dialects. 00:30:07.880 --> 00:30:12.380 It kind of helps in some way to alleviate or 00:30:12.380 --> 00:30:19.180 try to combat or help out some of these trouble 00:30:19.180 --> 00:30:23.559 or some incidents at times, you know. Can I ask

00:30:23.559 --> 00:30:26.099 you because, you know, of course people utilize 00:30:26.099 --> 00:30:29.140 police. It's not because they celebrate. It's 00:30:29.140 --> 00:30:31.690 because they have some trauma. situation they 00:30:31.690 --> 00:30:35.630 need to handle and you've seen a lot more things 00:30:35.630 --> 00:30:38.569 than comments people have. Does it mean that 00:30:38.569 --> 00:30:42.329 you appreciate life? Yes, I do appreciate life 00:30:42.329 --> 00:30:48.670 even more. I mean, I could just sort of briefly 00:30:48.670 --> 00:30:53.470 touch on an incident that I was helping out. 00:30:53.809 --> 00:30:58.750 It was about a kidnapping case of a little girl. 00:30:59.210 --> 00:31:03.029 And that little girl at that time was just slightly 00:31:03.029 --> 00:31:07.049 older than my own daughter. Having to hear and 00:31:07.049 --> 00:31:12.250 try to consult the girl's parents day in, day 00:31:12.250 --> 00:31:14.910 out, day in, day out over that period of the 00:31:14.910 --> 00:31:18.630 case, I literally went home. Whenever I look 00:31:18.630 --> 00:31:21.329 at my own daughter at that time, I literally 00:31:21.329 --> 00:31:26.190 went to a corner myself. I tried to go to a room 00:31:26.190 --> 00:31:30.019 myself and cry. Of course. Because, you know, 00:31:30.019 --> 00:31:35.279 the questions that was playing in my head was, 00:31:35.400 --> 00:31:39.500 what would I do if my own daughter was being 00:31:39.500 --> 00:31:43.000 kidnapped? How would I feel if my own daughter 00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:46.700 was being kidnapped? So those questions constantly 00:31:46.700 --> 00:31:50.779 staying there. Every single moment when I went 00:31:50.779 --> 00:31:54.440 home, look at my own daughter, I needed to have 00:31:54.440 --> 00:31:57.779 some time off. go to a room, quiet, and yeah, 00:31:57.799 --> 00:32:00.900 share some tears. I can understand. That's why 00:32:00.900 --> 00:32:03.079 I think like what you say, people sometimes forget 00:32:03.079 --> 00:32:06.700 police is human being as well. And they go into 00:32:06.700 --> 00:32:09.700 the job not because they genuinely wanted to 00:32:09.700 --> 00:32:12.579 help people. And so naturally, they also felt. 00:32:12.779 --> 00:32:16.920 Yes. Because why would they personally, you know, 00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:20.839 I feel more like a question that I tend to ask 00:32:20.839 --> 00:32:25.309 myself. Why would they? want to help others because 00:32:25.309 --> 00:32:30.789 they have empathy. Exactly. They probably have 00:32:30.789 --> 00:32:34.890 a lot more empathy than a lot of others. I agree. 00:32:35.150 --> 00:32:39.710 Yes, there's a job security in working in the 00:32:39.710 --> 00:32:42.809 New Zealand police. However, if you do not have 00:32:42.809 --> 00:32:47.730 empathy, you would not feel that gratitude when 00:32:47.730 --> 00:32:50.960 you help someone. To be honest, it's not easy 00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:53.940 as well. Yes, there's a job security, but they 00:32:53.940 --> 00:32:57.740 often being scrutinized by society, by media. 00:32:58.079 --> 00:33:03.099 You kind of have to be so careful about how... 00:33:03.099 --> 00:33:07.119 Yes, the image on and off duty, your image, how 00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:12.799 you present to people in general. It's not fun. 00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:17.539 I always been informed or been told back in the 00:33:17.539 --> 00:33:21.079 days that, you know, you may be off duty, but 00:33:21.079 --> 00:33:23.420 you still represent New Zealand police. Yeah. 00:33:23.480 --> 00:33:26.019 Because people recognize you as one of them. 00:33:26.119 --> 00:33:29.519 Especially you're very active in the Asian ethnic 00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:32.099 communities as well. So it's not just... Yeah. 00:33:32.420 --> 00:33:37.700 So yes, that scrutiny is always there. But if 00:33:37.700 --> 00:33:39.920 you carry and conduct yourself, I wouldn't be 00:33:39.920 --> 00:33:43.299 able to do it. Come on. It just needs a bit of 00:33:43.299 --> 00:33:47.980 time, I would say. Anyone... who have that compassion 00:33:47.980 --> 00:33:53.579 and that would have that ability to, you know, 00:33:53.579 --> 00:33:57.819 try to reinvent themselves, try to, I would say, 00:33:57.859 --> 00:34:01.279 connect with people, you know. And even my wife 00:34:01.279 --> 00:34:05.440 was saying to me, I used to be a very, very introvert 00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:09.599 person. So in doing the job that I was doing, 00:34:10.670 --> 00:34:13.409 simply cannot be introvert. Because you have 00:34:13.409 --> 00:34:15.349 to carry yourself. You need to be proactive. 00:34:15.710 --> 00:34:21.190 So I learned to put myself out there to be scrutinized. 00:34:21.369 --> 00:34:24.750 I need to learn to put myself out there, even 00:34:24.750 --> 00:34:29.190 though at times people just said no to you right 00:34:29.190 --> 00:34:32.730 in your face. So you have to constantly put yourself 00:34:32.730 --> 00:34:36.070 out there, try to re -engage and engage and engage 00:34:36.070 --> 00:34:39.889 with those, even those ones that say no to you. 00:34:40.250 --> 00:34:43.030 You know, it's easy to work along. And to me, 00:34:43.090 --> 00:34:45.789 no challenge. I would say if you ask someone, 00:34:45.829 --> 00:34:50.869 someone just answer yes to your request. The 00:34:50.869 --> 00:34:56.510 one that they tend to find more interesting for 00:34:56.510 --> 00:35:01.730 me now, looking back, was the ones that kept 00:35:01.730 --> 00:35:04.730 saying no to me and eventually say yes to me. 00:35:04.809 --> 00:35:08.519 You know, that to me was more. rewarding not 00:35:08.519 --> 00:35:12.260 saying belittle the rest that say yes to me it's 00:35:12.260 --> 00:35:15.460 just that in terms of personally personal achievement 00:35:15.460 --> 00:35:19.840 I could see that you know yes their mindsets 00:35:19.840 --> 00:35:23.079 were like this and then shift of their mindsets 00:35:23.079 -->

00:35:26.519 and then finally collaborate with police and 00:35:26.519 --> 00:35:30.739 wanting to promote New Zealand police even and 00:35:30.739 --> 00:35:34.360 that's to me I personally I feel yes I've done 00:35:34.360 --> 00:35:37.179 my job I hear you because gaining that trust 00:35:37.179 --> 00:35:39.619 is not easy. So it didn't just say no because 00:35:39.619 --> 00:35:42.039 someone say no. They don't want to collaborate 00:35:42.039 --> 00:35:44.519 with the police. And also because they're not 00:35:44.519 --> 00:35:47.920 sure why you want. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because 00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:52.840 like I say, you know, okay, Asians tend not to 00:35:52.840 --> 00:35:56.840 engage with police because back in Asia, that's 00:35:56.840 --> 00:35:59.039 the fact. There's a saying in Chinese, isn't 00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:02.000 it? They say, They don't want to go to the court. 00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:04.619 They don't want to go to the funeral. They don't 00:36:04.619 --> 00:36:07.099 want to be interacting with police, you know, 00:36:07.159 --> 00:36:10.420 or the three no or whatever. That's a saying 00:36:10.420 --> 00:36:14.119 in Chinese, I think. So that's with Asians. And 00:36:14.119 --> 00:36:17.619 then when we come to the rest of the ethnic communities, 00:36:17.699 --> 00:36:23.400 a lot of them were made up of refugees. And why, 00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:27.179 you know, why would they, refugees? would need 00:36:27.179 --> 00:36:29.860 to escape their own country and come to a new 00:36:29.860 --> 00:36:33.219 country and so forth because of the political 00:36:33.219 --> 00:36:38.420 opinions being suppressed and so forth. Hence, 00:36:38.719 --> 00:36:43.820 you are dealing with refugees who probably in 00:36:43.820 --> 00:36:47.219 the past life had challenges with authority as 00:36:47.219 --> 00:36:50.460 well. So you need to gain that trust and you 00:36:50.460 --> 00:36:54.980 need to constantly be working on that too. you 00:36:54.980 --> 00:36:58.460 know, try to, build that, relation, working relationship, 00:36:58.920 --> 00:37:03.099 and having that trust, and so, so yeah, so it's, 00:37:03.099 --> 00:37:06.599 that's for me, yeah, there were a lot of, challenges, 00:37:06.679 --> 00:37:11.320 in the past, but, I would say, overall, it was, 00:37:11.619 --> 00:37:15.719 very rewarding, I constantly also, try to remind 00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:19.320 myself, that I would be, successful, in the role, 00:37:19.420 --> 00:37:22.340 that I was doing, because, I had the support, 00:37:22.599 --> 00:37:26.420 from, the, You know, some of the leadership, 00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:31.480 management, as well as my peers, like my old 00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:35.219 colleagues, they won't say I'm any special than 00:37:35.219 --> 00:37:38.679 anyone. Without them supporting me, I wouldn't 00:37:38.679 --> 00:37:40.900 be able to do my job as well. You know, like 00:37:40.900 --> 00:37:44.400 I could be, you know, engaging with someone who 00:37:44.400 --> 00:37:48.760 was struggling with, say, conveying their message 00:37:48.760 --> 00:37:51.980 in Mandarin, you know, but I would still require 00:37:51.980 --> 00:37:56.909 my colleague. back then to carry on after I help 00:37:56.909 --> 00:38:00.130 out with interpretations or even translation 00:38:00.130 --> 00:38:04.070 you know to carry out their duties to look after 00:38:04.070 --> 00:38:09.030 the complainants without any of my peers or ex 00:38:09.030 --> 00:38:12.170 -colleagues in the past I wouldn't even be where 00:38:12.170 --> 00:38:15.070 so it's really teamwork it's not do you still 00:38:15.070 --> 00:38:18.369 remember your very first like not case like situation 00:38:18.369 --> 00:38:21.340 where you have to handle stuff One vivid one 00:38:21.340 --> 00:38:26.260 was, I would say, I won't say case, but more 00:38:26.260 --> 00:38:33.900 like incidents. So Northcote was pretty rough. 00:38:34.300 --> 00:38:39.920 Yeah, in the back. Back in those days. And I 00:38:39.920 --> 00:38:43.780 was constantly, or even the... The community 00:38:43.780 --> 00:38:46.800 back then, the Chinese community that lived around 00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:50.400 Northcote, they were so against police because 00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:55.059 they see at that time they thought, how come 00:38:55.059 --> 00:38:57.900 this sort of policing, you know, you only put 00:38:57.900 --> 00:39:02.300 one community constable there and hoping to turn 00:39:02.300 --> 00:39:08.099 things around and all that. But yeah, so I ended 00:39:08.099 --> 00:39:13.570 up have to go with the manager to... public meeting, 00:39:13.969 --> 00:39:18.050 try to reassure them, and then work along constantly 00:39:18.050 --> 00:39:22.150 at that time for at least six months to a year, 00:39:22.250 --> 00:39:25.469 constantly with that particular community constable, 00:39:25.670 --> 00:39:29.489 try to turn things around and try to build that 00:39:29.489 --> 00:39:33.329 relationship and also try to recruit some volunteers 00:39:33.329 --> 00:39:38.190 to get trained, to interact with the community 00:39:38.190 --> 00:39:43.619 there, and also to... taking any complaints and 00:39:43.619 --> 00:39:46.519 then pass it back to the community council back 00:39:46.519 --> 00:39:51.000 then so yeah that was a huge shift in mindset 00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:57.739 a huge that for me was because back then I just 00:39:57.739 --> 00:40:02.079 landed the job not so long ago and then boom 00:40:02.079 --> 00:40:07.000 came out in the media that some of these Asian 00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:11.070 residents were attacked in North Cote So yeah, 00:40:11.190 --> 00:40:16.789 so that was a huge mindset shift from a really, 00:40:16.829 --> 00:40:24.130 really negative towards the whole police into 00:40:24.130 --> 00:40:27.929 a really, really positive. I would say a really 00:40:27.929 --> 00:40:30.730 positive and good relationship. I know because 00:40:30.730 -->

00:40:34.769 some of them still have really high regard of 00:40:34.769 --> 00:40:38.760 you. I remember the old member. That was my old 00:40:38.760 --> 00:40:41.500 day as well, like working with them, they speak 00:40:41.500 --> 00:40:43.719 really highly of you. Yeah, they know you very 00:40:43.719 --> 00:40:47.480 well. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I spent a lot of time 00:40:47.480 --> 00:40:51.179 on that page. You're very quiet. You never kind 00:40:51.179 --> 00:40:54.500 of like blow your own trumpet about things that 00:40:54.500 --> 00:40:57.019 you did. I didn't even know, like not because 00:40:57.019 --> 00:40:59.860 of this podcast. I probably didn't even know 00:40:59.860 --> 00:41:03.539 all this. No, no. I mean, come on. Like I say, 00:41:03.619 --> 00:41:09.039 you know. I was only one member out of so many, 00:41:09.159 --> 00:41:13.159 over 10 ,000 employees within New Zealand Police. 00:41:13.300 --> 00:41:16.800 I was only one of them. And to me, yeah. You're 00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:20.900 very quiet. I don't, I mean, yes, over the years, 00:41:20.920 --> 00:41:24.840 I could have celebrated quite a bit of achievement. 00:41:25.039 --> 00:41:28.219 I don't know. I mean, it's just my nature, I 00:41:28.219 --> 00:41:31.440 suppose. So you really set the templates for 00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:34.619 how to work with the Asian community. I don't 00:41:34.619 --> 00:41:38.519 know whether I can claim that. Yeah, so because 00:41:38.519 --> 00:41:41.480 there's no one had done it before and at a time 00:41:41.480 --> 00:41:44.619 you really work with, so you have idea how to 00:41:44.619 --> 00:41:47.079 work with them, how to gain trust and then. Yeah. 00:41:48.420 --> 00:41:51.320 Well, I mean, trial and error, I suppose, you 00:41:51.320 --> 00:41:54.400 know, if one thing doesn't work, find another 00:41:54.400 --> 00:41:57.800 solutions, you know, find other ways, other means 00:41:57.800 --> 00:42:01.280 to. And Raymond, we both know how hard it is 00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:02.820 when you're working with the Asian community. 00:42:03.880 --> 00:42:07.039 What I mean is they have high expectations. Exactly. 00:42:07.159 --> 00:42:09.659 High expectations and then also social exchange, 00:42:09.920 --> 00:42:14.019 you know, like you have to do. And quite often 00:42:14.019 --> 00:42:18.300 they would compare like the authority back in 00:42:18.300 --> 00:42:20.920 their own country. The standards that they had 00:42:20.920 --> 00:42:23.460 or the service that they had back in their own 00:42:23.460 --> 00:42:28.260 country to New Zealand was so... Yeah, how to 00:42:28.260 --> 00:42:34.849 handle this. So that's why I... I said just now, 00:42:35.050 --> 00:42:39.710 you know, they couldn't believe at that time 00:42:39.710 --> 00:42:44.250 that they just put one community constable in 00:42:44.250 --> 00:42:46.929 Northcote. And he's not even Asian. He or she 00:42:46.929 --> 00:42:48.889 is not even Asian. Some of them can't even speak 00:42:48.889 --> 00:42:52.789 English. Correct. So that's why we had to think 00:42:52.789 --> 00:42:56.429 smarter, look, I would say, look outside the 00:42:56.429 --> 00:43:00.909 box, look outside the square, try an error, do 00:43:00.909 --> 00:43:04.690 something. and see whether that will come in 00:43:04.690 --> 00:43:08.650 flourish or if it doesn't, then what goes wrong 00:43:08.650 --> 00:43:12.349 in there and then try to fine tune it and then 00:43:12.349 --> 00:43:18.329 use the positive case studies and try to empower 00:43:18.329 --> 00:43:24.230 others or the new ones that comes in and through 00:43:24.230 --> 00:43:27.429 those experience. Whether there's failure or 00:43:27.429 --> 00:43:30.909 success, you know, you have to share with everyone. 00:43:31.010 --> 00:43:36.090 And then, yeah, hopefully at times go past, they 00:43:36.090 --> 00:43:40.269 would find new ways to share their insights with 00:43:40.269 --> 00:43:44.269 you and so forth. It would just merit as well 00:43:44.269 --> 00:43:46.789 at the time, isn't it? If I didn't do it wrong, 00:43:46.909 --> 00:43:52.130 yeah, it would just merit. Yes, yes. I just got 00:43:52.130 --> 00:43:58.539 merit. Yeah, not long, not so long ago. And at 00:43:58.539 --> 00:44:03.659 that time, my wife was kind of in shock how much 00:44:03.659 --> 00:44:09.460 time that I spent on the community and how much 00:44:09.460 --> 00:44:15.300 time that I spent at home. Yeah, I mean, I suppose, 00:44:15.420 --> 00:44:19.360 yeah, you could call it pioneering, but someone 00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:23.420 has to do it, you know, and then just set the 00:44:23.420 --> 00:44:27.070 path. for others. Hopefully, it will be a lot 00:44:27.070 --> 00:44:32.010 smoother path for others to walk. Do you think 00:44:32.010 --> 00:44:36.090 it's been improved? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It has. 00:44:36.250 --> 00:44:41.250 In terms of the trust between police and the 00:44:41.250 --> 00:44:45.829 community, yes, it definitely has improved a 00:44:45.829 --> 00:44:51.230 lot. There's a lot more trust involved. Yeah, 00:44:51.250 --> 00:44:55.659 and even to a to certain points where communities, 00:44:55.699 --> 00:44:59.679 groups celebrating their events, they would invite 00:44:59.679 --> 00:45:05.239 police to come along to be, you know, to learn, 00:45:05.480 --> 00:45:09.719 to interact with other community members. It 00:45:09.719 --> 00:45:14.760 has, yeah, that collaboration, they actually 00:45:14.760 --> 00:45:18.460 do hope it remains, you know, yeah. But whether 00:45:18.460 --> 00:45:22.889 or not it will, time will tell. Yeah. I suppose 00:45:22.889 --> 00:45:28.769 it depends on whoever in that liaison team, how 00:45:28.769 --> 00:45:33.710 they see or how they feel, how they want to take 00:45:33.710 --> 00:45:37.809 things and progress things along the way. I personally 00:45:37.809 --> 00:45:43.269 believe that, you know, before I left New Zealand 00:45:43.269 --> 00:45:45.389

Police, before I resigned from New Zealand Police, 00:45:45.590 --> 00:45:50.130 I was one of the sort of team leader. I always 00:45:50.130 --> 00:45:53.480 believe that everyone, have good ideas, everyone 00:45:53.480 --> 00:45:57.360 can contribute. Even my staff at that time, I 00:45:57.360 --> 00:46:00.900 would allow them to make mistakes. I would allow 00:46:00.900 --> 00:46:07.460 them to bring in their ideas and work on their 00:46:07.460 --> 00:46:11.099 ideas. Because, you know, I suppose it's also 00:46:11.099 --> 00:46:15.480 true that if you are in a position of comfort 00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:22.239 for too long, you only think of the ideas. So 00:46:22.239 --> 00:46:27.599 if you have staff that just come join in from 00:46:27.599 --> 00:46:31.900 external, like outside that bubble, they would 00:46:31.900 --> 00:46:35.780 have some more genius idea than you, correct? 00:46:35.920 --> 00:46:39.199 Different age group, different generations. That's 00:46:39.199 --> 00:46:45.920 why I always find it very intriguing in the past 00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:49.820 with my staff talking about how they want to 00:46:50.300 --> 00:46:55.239 build or extend that working relationship I always 00:46:55.239 --> 00:47:01.440 find it intriguing interesting I suppose like 00:47:01.440 --> 00:47:03.500 you say you know different generations different 00:47:03.500 --> 00:47:07.800 age gap they will be able to share with me like 00:47:07.800 --> 00:47:11.760 how through whatever means of social media to 00:47:11.760 --> 00:47:16.159 reach out to the community group or even Because, 00:47:16.360 --> 00:47:18.760 you know, all of us are being classified into 00:47:18.760 --> 00:47:21.159 different generations. I can't, I don't even 00:47:21.159 --> 00:47:24.199 know what my generation is. Is this a Y or Z 00:47:24.199 --> 00:47:27.059 or whatever, or X or whatever? Yeah, I can't 00:47:27.059 --> 00:47:31.719 remember. And so the language that the younger 00:47:31.719 --> 00:47:34.980 generation use, quite frequently, I wouldn't 00:47:34.980 --> 00:47:38.659 have a clue. You know, they use a lot of acronyms 00:47:38.659 --> 00:47:42.539 and they use a lot of words that means this. 00:47:42.699 --> 00:47:47.369 But to me, It doesn't, well, wouldn't even make 00:47:47.369 --> 00:47:51.630 sense. So having staff that comes in that were 00:47:51.630 --> 00:47:55.250 willing to share that knowledge with you, that's, 00:47:55.250 --> 00:47:57.650 to me, it's empowering. Can I ask you something, 00:47:57.730 --> 00:47:59.829 let's say, based on your experience, you know, 00:47:59.889 --> 00:48:04.030 like in New Zealand first, over 30 years, you 00:48:04.030 --> 00:48:06.210 know, started from an international student and 00:48:06.210 --> 00:48:08.869 then also in a past experience working in the 00:48:08.869 --> 00:48:12.159 police force and seeing different... problems 00:48:12.159 --> 00:48:16.699 and issues if you can sum up some key theme for 00:48:16.699 -->

00:48:20.840 new migrants to take on board and so that they 00:48:20.840 --> 00:48:24.219 you know what would be some of the tips you provide 00:48:24.219 --> 00:48:28.900 personally I would say stay humble yeah be willing 00:48:28.900 --> 00:48:32.360 to stay humble be willing to listen to learn 00:48:32.360 --> 00:48:38.019 to listen as well as to learn because we don't 00:48:38.019 --> 00:48:42.389 know everything that's right and Why do I say 00:48:42.389 --> 00:48:45.869 stay humble? Because obviously people that walk 00:48:45.869 --> 00:48:49.050 the path before us would have wisdoms, would 00:48:49.050 --> 00:48:53.650 have guidance that they pass on to us for a reason. 00:48:53.750 --> 00:48:57.469 And so it's good to learn that and then probably 00:48:57.469 --> 00:49:01.710 fine -tune it to today's societies and then carry 00:49:01.710 --> 00:49:06.190 on with that new path. People don't just lay 00:49:06.190 --> 00:49:10.719 the foundation for no reason. So be humble to 00:49:10.719 --> 00:49:15.239 learn about it. Also to listen how the challenges 00:49:15.239 --> 00:49:18.480 people go through, the experience that people 00:49:18.480 --> 00:49:24.380 go through. Yeah. In some way, it's kind of tying 00:49:24.380 --> 00:49:28.559 quite closely with the Maori tikanga. You know, 00:49:28.599 --> 00:49:33.559 if you go to any marae, you see all these pictures 00:49:33.559 --> 00:49:39.619 of some, you know, respectful. respected Maori 00:49:39.619 --> 00:49:42.920 leaders, their portraits are being hanged within 00:49:42.920 --> 00:49:46.460 the marae and you see all these carving, the 00:49:46.460 --> 00:49:50.440 pole, which pole represent what and so forth. 00:49:50.900 --> 00:49:55.019 Yeah, so why would they have that, you know, 00:49:55.039 --> 00:49:59.179 assist until today? It's for the young ones to 00:49:59.179 --> 00:50:03.659 go in there to absorb that knowledge. And I know 00:50:03.659 --> 00:50:05.599 what you mean because especially as a migrant, 00:50:05.739 --> 00:50:08.000 we only bring our own knowledge and understanding 00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:11.219 from our own country. And quite often, it's quite 00:50:11.219 --> 00:50:14.099 easy to use that as a standard to judge. But 00:50:14.099 --> 00:50:16.260 what you're saying is, you know, be humble because 00:50:16.260 --> 00:50:18.380 after all, this is not the same country where 00:50:18.380 --> 00:50:21.619 we came from. And there are some good learning 00:50:21.619 --> 00:50:25.809 here where things have been done. That is suitable 00:50:25.809 --> 00:50:27.269 for here in the New Zealand context. Of course, 00:50:27.369 --> 00:50:31.429 of course. Because we still want to preserve 00:50:31.429 --> 00:50:38.010 the green and clean image of New Zealand. And 00:50:38.010 --> 00:50:43.329 yeah, so nuclear free and so forth. And so, yeah. 00:50:44.849 --> 00:50:49.809 What about safety tips in general? I mean, in 00:50:49.809 --> 00:50:52.949 terms of safety in general, it's like anywhere 00:50:52.949 --> 00:50:58.150 else, I suppose. Sometimes it's too easy to be 00:50:58.150 --> 00:51:01.889 true. What's the terminology? Like too good to 00:51:01.889 --> 00:51:06.489 be true. Sometimes too good to be true. You get 00:51:06.489 --> 00:51:11.489 it or you've been so -called rewarded too easily. 00:51:11.650 --> 00:51:14.889 Sometimes you have to be quite wary. Like, okay, 00:51:14.989 --> 00:51:17.210 are you falling into a trap? Are you falling 00:51:17.210 --> 00:51:22.269 into a scam? You've seen a lot like it. Yeah. 00:51:24.199 --> 00:51:27.539 And also, obviously, like in terms of other safety, 00:51:27.739 --> 00:51:32.000 it's like even back in where I originally from, 00:51:32.159 --> 00:51:35.679 you know, if it's dark and not well lit, you 00:51:35.679 --> 00:51:38.519 try to avoid. Exactly. It is the same everywhere. 00:51:38.760 --> 00:51:42.360 It's just common sense. But hearing you say that, 00:51:42.360 --> 00:51:44.760 you know, because that's what I understand as 00:51:44.760 --> 00:51:48.420 well. A lot of situations or robbery or whatever, 00:51:48.559 --> 00:51:51.019 people thought it's well planned, but sometimes 00:51:51.019 --> 00:51:54.210 a lot of things were... situation created because 00:51:54.210 --> 00:51:56.190 there's opportunity arrived. Opportunity, yes. 00:51:56.289 --> 00:51:58.469 And then the person become the victim. It's as 00:51:58.469 --> 00:52:02.130 simple as, okay, you know, for me, when I was 00:52:02.130 --> 00:52:05.630 back in Malaysia, I would not put bags or whatever 00:52:05.630 --> 00:52:10.969 in the car and lock and park somewhere. Why would 00:52:10.969 --> 00:52:15.769 I be doing that here in New Zealand? So, obviously, 00:52:16.050 --> 00:52:21.190 when someone break into the car, and retrieve 00:52:21.190 --> 00:52:25.389 the stolen item, like the bags or whatever. It's 00:52:25.389 --> 00:52:29.730 a common sense. We don't do that. Yes. Anywhere. 00:52:29.849 --> 00:52:34.969 That's right. Hide it if you have to. So, yeah, 00:52:35.269 --> 00:52:40.789 if we use our head a lot more, then, yeah, a 00:52:40.789 --> 00:52:46.570 lot of unnecessary so -called incidents can be 00:52:46.570 --> 00:52:49.360 avoided. Agree. Because my father is from underworld, 00:52:49.559 --> 00:52:52.260 you know, so she knew. He often say a lot of 00:52:52.260 --> 00:52:54.619 things happen, it's opportunities, not necessarily 00:52:54.619 --> 00:52:57.039 well planned. You're going to cut that part out? 00:52:57.280 --> 00:52:59.320 No, probably not. Everybody knew, like, that's 00:52:59.320 --> 00:53:02.539 out on the air, even from other work that I have 00:53:02.539 --> 00:53:04.920 done. But yeah, I mean, there's a misconception 00:53:04.920 --> 00:53:07.639 people have, they thought, you know, like, but 00:53:07.639 --> 00:53:10.219 it's not, it's just an opportunity. It's just 00:53:10.219 --> 00:53:13.559 an opportunity, yes. Of course, there are certain

00:53:13.559 --> 00:53:17.269 planned crime. Which is much before your shoulder. 00:53:17.389 --> 00:53:20.869 Yes, not the pity crime that's going on. But 00:53:20.869 --> 00:53:24.889 yeah, a lot of it can be avoided if we just use 00:53:24.889 --> 00:53:28.170 our common sense. Think twice before you act 00:53:28.170 --> 00:53:31.809 on it. Even with the plain one. best way to do 00:53:31.809 --> 00:53:34.570 it is just to let them do it don't intervene 00:53:34.570 --> 00:53:37.429 because my father always tell us the same things 00:53:37.429 --> 00:53:40.889 like stay back do what they want and they walk 00:53:40.889 --> 00:53:43.690 away and then no one get hurt correct because 00:53:43.690 --> 00:53:48.010 at the end of the day their intention was financial 00:53:48.010 --> 00:53:54.409 gain exactly so as long as they are able to well 00:53:54.409 --> 00:53:57.869 unavoidable if you're able to feed that gain 00:53:57.869 --> 00:54:01.659 into them They just leave you alone. People don't 00:54:01.659 --> 00:54:04.559 understand they were pumped with adrenaline. 00:54:05.199 --> 00:54:08.139 Why you want to attack a dog when they're already 00:54:08.139 --> 00:54:12.940 aggressive? That's a lose -lose situation. So 00:54:12.940 --> 00:54:15.840 just real thumbs, I suppose, you know, like I 00:54:15.840 --> 00:54:18.820 use some common sense, yeah, think twice before 00:54:18.820 --> 00:54:22.460 you act. And yeah, even three times before you 00:54:22.460 --> 00:54:24.500 act on it. But like what you say, don't food. 00:54:24.920 --> 00:54:27.320 Don't put oneself in a dangerous situation. Don't 00:54:27.320 --> 00:54:31.340 put your life in a dangerous situation. If you 00:54:31.340 --> 00:54:34.219 have to walk another 10 minutes. Correct. Raining, 00:54:34.400 --> 00:54:42.199 but it's well lit. Dark, well, you know, yeah. 00:54:42.340 --> 00:54:47.639 So that's just common sense. So, yeah, I mean, 00:54:47.659 --> 00:54:51.820 sometimes some people underestimate it, not saying. 00:54:52.300 --> 00:54:54.719 they are foolish just that they underestimated 00:54:54.719 --> 00:55:00.539 they you know their mentality switch has to be 00:55:00.539 --> 00:55:04.179 quite alert when you come to a new country and 00:55:04.179 --> 00:55:07.460 you call this new country your home so just for 00:55:07.460 --> 00:55:10.280 instance you talk you mentioned about park you 00:55:10.280 --> 00:55:14.440 know most park back in Asia are well lit you 00:55:14.440 --> 00:55:18.000 know and you have people walking exercise way 00:55:18.000 --> 00:55:21.969 into the night as well but over here Some parts 00:55:21.969 --> 00:55:26.090 are quite shady and quite dark, quite scary at 00:55:26.090 --> 00:55:30.050 times, you know, when there's no street lights. 00:55:30.949 --> 00:55:35.110 So why do we want to take that shortcut where 00:55:35.110 --> 00:55:38.469 you can just walk on, yeah, spend another extra 00:55:38.469 --> 00:55:42.630 10 minutes, walk on a well -lit path, you know, 00:55:42.630 --> 00:55:46.869 and where also there's more people around the 00:55:46.869 --> 00:55:49.929 well -lit area as well. Thank you, Raymond. Most 00:55:49.929 --> 00:55:52.579 welcome. It's really good talking to you. Learn 00:55:52.579 --> 00:55:56.639 so much from you and about you. No, no. We are 00:55:56.639 --> 00:55:59.300 learning from each other. Like I say to you, 00:55:59.420 --> 00:56:02.699 I cannot do everything alone by myself. You know, 00:56:02.760 --> 00:56:07.320 that's my philosophy is I am only capable or 00:56:07.320 --> 00:56:11.559 able because of the support from others. You 00:56:11.559 --> 00:56:14.480 know, and yeah. That's who you are. You're humble. 00:56:14.800 --> 00:56:18.679 It's not humble. It's just I know I'm not a smart 00:56:18.679 --> 00:56:22.139 person. No, I don't think so. I don't even know 00:56:22.139 --> 00:56:24.980 whether I'm a wise person. It's so funny. Like, 00:56:25.000 --> 00:56:28.320 you have this Cantonese called 私乃杀手, like the 00:56:28.320 --> 00:56:35.079 auntie shoe. You were so well -liked. It's quite 00:56:35.079 --> 00:56:37.800 embarrassing. I never go out. Where did that 00:56:37.800 --> 00:56:40.420 come from? I don't know. It's from our mutual 00:56:40.420 --> 00:56:43.699 friend. It's so funny. Yeah, I never, I never, 00:56:43.780 --> 00:56:47.559 seriously, I never go out to meet the community 00:56:47.559 --> 00:56:52.539 people. being having a nickname or branded a 00:56:52.539 --> 00:56:55.500 nickname just so happened but they really like 00:56:55.500 --> 00:56:57.780 you because I think they feel like they can trust 00:56:57.780 --> 00:57:01.679 you and also feel saved hearing yeah learn from 00:57:01.679 --> 00:57:04.039 you I think which is big because a lot of them 00:57:04.039 --> 00:57:06.199 also don't feel safe especially they can't speak 00:57:06.199 --> 00:57:08.320 the language and all that so having someone can 00:57:08.320 --> 00:57:10.940 speak the language and also felt like oh this 00:57:10.940 --> 00:57:14.739 guy is genuine well I suppose also at the same 00:57:14.739 --> 00:57:18.260 tokens you know like I'm a parent myself yes 00:57:18.260 --> 00:57:23.239 you know when I speak to parents from other ethnicities 00:57:23.239 --> 00:57:26.639 yeah they probably could relate to me a lot more 00:57:26.639 --> 00:57:30.469 because I could use my own children as examples 00:57:30.469 --> 00:57:34.849 how to interact with them perhaps in certain 00:57:34.849 --> 00:57:37.550 levels and also because you live in like the 00:57:37.550 --> 00:57:39.989 community the society so you you do have a lot 00:57:39.989 --> 00:57:42.710 of insight and and able to articulate some of 00:57:42.710 --> 00:57:44.809 the challenges that they experienced so they 00:57:44.809 --> 00:57:47.769 felt like they've been seen and heard yeah whichever 00:57:47.769 --> 00:57:53.920 it is whichever way yeah for me as long as message 00:57:53.920 -->

00:57:56.619 goes out to them I don't mind you know I don't 00:57:56.619 --> 00:57:59.219 mind being branded with this nickname that nickname 00:57:59.219 --> 00:58:03.280 whatever it is you know even if they wanted to 00:58:03.280 --> 00:58:08.440 brand me as the worst or the most fearful person 00:58:08.440 --> 00:58:12.760 in the world as long as they I was able to convey 00:58:12.760 --> 00:58:18.539 that message to them and they willing to participate 00:58:18.539 --> 00:58:22.860 they also need to know like this out of, you 00:58:22.860 --> 00:58:24.900 know, like, you're not working in the police 00:58:24.900 --> 00:58:28.739 anymore. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Yeah. No longer work 00:58:28.739 --> 00:58:33.659 in the police. My advice may not be valid anymore 00:58:33.659 --> 00:58:37.059 because it's, it's not, it's not standing behind 00:58:37.059 --> 00:58:41.320 the brain of, of, through your own experience 00:58:41.320 --> 00:58:43.679 and what you, what you have seen from the community. 00:58:43.920 --> 00:58:46.739 Yeah. It's, it's still very important. I'm still, 00:58:46.800 --> 00:58:50.219 even though, yes, I've resigned from, from the 00:58:50.219 --> 00:58:53.449 job. Well, First and foremost, like I said, I'm 00:58:53.449 --> 00:58:56.769 grateful for the opportunity within the New Zealand 00:58:56.769 --> 00:59:00.110 police, given by the police and by some of the 00:59:00.110 --> 00:59:03.969 leaders, management and so forth. But secondly, 00:59:04.190 --> 00:59:08.070 I'm also grateful for the community because they 00:59:08.070 --> 00:59:11.989 allowed me to walk into their space, into their 00:59:11.989 --> 00:59:16.150 world. And even until now, some of them, I still 00:59:16.150 --> 00:59:19.949 remain friends. I still know who they are, like 00:59:19.949 --> 00:59:22.800 us, still. talk to them, interact with them and 00:59:22.800 --> 00:59:25.260 still engage with them. You know, that's how 00:59:25.260 --> 00:59:29.219 wonderful it is. That's why, yeah, I learned 00:59:29.219 --> 00:59:32.599 heaps. Seriously, I learned heaps from everyone. 00:59:32.860 --> 00:59:36.400 And I also want to say, I didn't tell you why 00:59:36.400 --> 00:59:38.579 I invited you, even though I said, oh, friend, 00:59:38.860 --> 00:59:42.300 the reason why I wanted to invite you is the 00:59:42.300 --> 00:59:44.820 first I mentioned to you, you know, like you 00:59:44.820 --> 00:59:49.199 were pioneering the Asians. police liaison in 00:59:49.199 --> 00:59:51.400 the early days and that's where I get to know 00:59:51.400 --> 00:59:54.719 you and then I also know throughout the years 00:59:54.719 --> 00:59:59.530 you have a very reputable name. in the police 00:59:59.530 --> 01:00:02.269 force and as well as you know the communities 01:00:02.269 --> 01:00:04.929 and everybody speak highly of you and we collaborate 01:00:04.929 --> 01:00:07.829 many other projects you know like in the past 01:00:07.829 --> 01:00:11.690 and to me you know like I just want to honour 01:00:11.690 --> 01:00:14.289 you of your authenticity to be honest you know 01:00:14.289 --> 01:00:17.110 like it's very humbling to see someone has never 01:00:17.110 --> 01:00:21.849 changed and you you never really blow your trumpet 01:00:21.849 --> 01:00:24.469 you know like I would never even know how you 01:00:24.469 --> 01:00:27.050 started because it's so funny everybody that 01:00:27.050 --> 01:00:29.739 I invited to come to the podcast, they're all 01:00:29.739 --> 01:00:32.280 so humble, you know, every guest is, but the 01:00:32.280 --> 01:00:34.320 reason why I want to talk to them is because 01:00:34.320 --> 01:00:37.119 they just have this really nice energy about 01:00:37.119 --> 01:00:40.039 who they are as a human being, which I respect 01:00:40.039 --> 01:00:43.480 deeply, you know, and then, and also seeing you 01:00:43.480 --> 01:00:46.320 as a father, seeing you as a husband, you know, 01:00:46.340 --> 01:00:49.739 seeing you as a professional work, always the 01:00:49.739 --> 01:00:52.820 same person. I suppose in the background, okay, 01:00:52.860 --> 01:00:58.019 this is in the background. I, was able to achieve 01:00:58.019 --> 01:01:01.400 where I was also because of the family support. 01:01:02.039 --> 01:01:05.679 That's more important than anything else. Yes, 01:01:05.780 --> 01:01:10.079 you can get the accolade from the police leadership. 01:01:10.179 --> 01:01:13.239 You can get the accolade from the community and 01:01:13.239 --> 01:01:16.199 so forth. But if you don't get the support from 01:01:16.199 --> 01:01:21.820 your immediate family members, then everything 01:01:21.820 --> 01:01:24.980 is a waste to me. It's going down the drain. 01:01:26.110 --> 01:01:29.550 My wife... What are your tips? ...supported me 01:01:29.550 --> 01:01:32.530 wholeheartedly. How long have you guys been together? 01:01:33.909 --> 01:01:37.489 We've been married... This year will be our 20th. 01:01:37.530 --> 01:01:40.210 Before you married, how long were you... I dated 01:01:40.210 --> 01:01:43.449 with her for three years. So that's 30 years. 01:01:43.690 --> 01:01:45.969 That's a long time. Yeah, yeah. What are your 01:01:45.969 --> 01:01:50.070 tips? No tips. No tips. No tips for men. Well, 01:01:50.389 --> 01:01:56.070 I... make a lot of mistakes. My wife is very 01:01:56.070 --> 01:01:59.070 forgiving. I think in common, everybody makes 01:01:59.070 --> 01:02:02.269 mistakes. Like what you say, it takes two to 01:02:02.269 --> 01:02:05.070 ten girls and also having a good wife, of course, 01:02:05.090 --> 01:02:08.170 it helps. Yeah, because, I mean, our children, 01:02:08.230 --> 01:02:12.670 I always say this to people. Our children are 01:02:12.670 --> 01:02:16.510 at where they are at this point in time. It's 01:02:16.510 --> 01:02:22.369 not my hard work. It's her hard work. She was 01:02:22.369 --> 01:02:26.429 a full -time mom. She literally looked after 01:02:26.429 --> 01:02:30.869 the children

and allowed me to work as hard as 01:02:30.869 --> 01:02:36.550 I wanted in my job. And yeah, so all these like 01:02:36.550 --> 01:02:41.070 parenting meeting and all these driving them 01:02:41.070 --> 01:02:44.750 to school, picking them up, taking them to see 01:02:44.750 --> 01:02:49.599 doctors when they're sick. attending their events, 01:02:50.019 --> 01:02:55.400 a lot of it were single -handedly taken upon 01:02:55.400 --> 01:02:58.219 by my wife. I hear you because your job is quite, 01:02:58.380 --> 01:03:01.099 not saying, even though you have a 9 to 5, but 01:03:01.099 --> 01:03:04.400 the time is still quite unpredictable. So you 01:03:04.400 --> 01:03:06.579 can't necessarily schedule everything according 01:03:06.579 --> 01:03:10.639 to your wish. And she has to be so flexible. 01:03:11.000 --> 01:03:15.880 And willing, willing, and willing to. And not 01:03:15.880 --> 01:03:18.480 create any fuss about it as well, isn't it? So, 01:03:18.480 --> 01:03:25.920 yeah. I have to say, I'm a very, very lucky man. 01:03:26.119 --> 01:03:29.119 I will cut this for your wife. You can take it. 01:03:29.480 --> 01:03:34.460 I say I am a very, very lucky man. Yeah, I am 01:03:34.460 --> 01:03:37.500 a very lucky man. Awesome. And just one last 01:03:37.500 --> 01:03:40.360 thing. Looking... Through your life, if there's 01:03:40.360 --> 01:03:43.559 something you can say back to Raymond when he 01:03:43.559 --> 01:03:45.639 first came to New Zealand, what would you say 01:03:45.639 --> 01:03:53.119 to him? I would say expect the unexpected. Yeah, 01:03:53.119 --> 01:03:59.659 I was never ever diligent in studying, you know, 01:03:59.659 --> 01:04:05.110 but in terms of the path that has taken me. to 01:04:05.110 --> 01:04:09.110 where I was. I don't think I ever regretted that. 01:04:09.210 --> 01:04:12.670 If you say, would I change anything? I would 01:04:12.670 --> 01:04:15.730 say no. Because if I change something, I wouldn't 01:04:15.730 --> 01:04:19.550 have met my wife. Where is she from? She's from 01:04:19.550 --> 01:04:22.170 Malaysia too. Okay. But from a different state. 01:04:22.510 --> 01:04:26.090 My part or your part? It's from the peninsula. 01:04:26.389 --> 01:04:30.070 Yeah, it's from Ipoh. Ipoh, oh. Yeah, so it's 01:04:30.070 --> 01:04:36.239 from your part. Yeah, so... Even so, I wouldn't 01:04:36.239 --> 01:04:40.920 want to change anything. Yeah, if I had the chance 01:04:40.920 --> 01:04:44.119 to have like a time travel machine to go back, 01:04:44.239 --> 01:04:48.960 if I even alter anything in the past, it's perhaps, 01:04:49.199 --> 01:04:52.320 you know, I would pay more attention in studying 01:04:52.320 --> 01:04:56.599 and so forth. But if I was taking that path and 01:04:56.599 --> 01:05:01.289 secure whatever different job or whatever. I 01:05:01.289 --> 01:05:04.250 probably wouldn't have come across my wife. But 01:05:04.250 --> 01:05:06.949 I like what you say, expected, unexpected. That's 01:05:06.949 --> 01:05:09.030 really good. You say that I will look at my wife, 01:05:09.110 --> 01:05:11.869 I would wholly agree as well. Well put.