Full Transcript for The Positive Birth Movement, a 10 pound baby born at home, water births, and the matriflux

two, I'm a mum of three. So when I wrote The Positive Birth Book, I'd had two babies. So I guess I had to have the second birth really to truly believe that positive birth was possible. And also to believe that my body was physically capable of giving birth. in that sense that... all women's bodies are physically capable of giving birth because my first birth, I don't know how we're going to get into this, but my first birth I was induced. So I didn't actually go into labor by myself and then I had forceps. So Merelise: Mm. Milli Hill: I didn't push a baby out by myself. So I went into my Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: second birth feeling like I, you know, I still haven't actually really given birth by myself. I've had, you know, helped to get the thing started and helped to get the thing finished. Merelise: Mm. Milli Hill: And so I kind of wanted to do that. I had this kind of like intense interest in it. But I mean, how did I actually end up writing a book about birth? I still don't really understand that myself. I mean, it just happened the way life leads you down certain paths, you know? Before Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: I became a mum, I was working as a creative arts psychotherapist. So I wasn't anything to do with childbirth at all. And then when I had my first baby, you know, I went deep into the whole kind of like... thinking about childbirth, like many women for the first time in my life, I'd never really given it a second thought apart from, my God, that sounds absolutely horrendous. Can't believe I'm gonna actually maybe do that one day. Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: And then so of course I sort of turned it into a bit of a project, know, learning about it as much as possible when I was pregnant for the first time. And then when I had my second baby, I started writing a blog, like a, you know, it was around about 20. 11, so there were a lot of blogs at that time, it was a thing. And Merelise: Mm-hmm. Milli Hill: every time I wrote something about childbirth, and I'd been really seeing childbirth as a feminist issue, and every time I wrote about anything to do with childbirth, with that feminist slant, it was so popular that it kind of like, I wrote more and then it was more popular, and then I ended up doing journalism, writing columns about childbirth and breastfeeding and motherhood. So it just kind of took on from there and that's how I ended up doing the book really, just because the universe said you have to write more about this. So I did. Merelise: Yes. What was it? That's amazing. What was it about all of that? Like how did you land on the concept of positive birth being your your key takeaway of what you really wanted to to give to people? Milli Hill: Well, I think it was probably some, in some ways, thanks to my therapy background, which is very much about kind of trying to find inclusive ideas, if that makes sense, Merelise: Yes. Milli Hill: that don't hurt people in, you know, words that don't hurt. But also it was because I

saw so much polarity in the dialogue around childbirth, you know, in terms Merelise: Mm. Milli Hill: of that sort of women feeling judged, whether they were being judged or not. The too posh to push label of women who had caesareans Merelise: Mm. Yeah. Milli Hill: and the whole idea of women having natural births being ridiculous and the sort of real ideological battle between all these different choices that was dividing women. And so I think with Merelise: Mm. Mm. Milli Hill: positive birth, it was what I thought would be a great way of talking about birth in a different way, instead of the natural birth dialogue, which I mean, I was really into natural birth. I'm not going to, you know, make up that I wasn't, but Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: it doesn't have to be women don't have to be really into natural birth to have a positive birth experience. So yeah, it was just, just came out of that really just trying to find an expression that could be inclusive to all women and all choices and say that it didn't matter what choices you made, you still were entitled to have this experience that was not. traumatic and that you had warm memories of and that you felt proud of and that was life enhancing for you. Merelise: That's so beautifully said. I think i I relate to that so much. and I love your background. My dad was a psychologist and so I grew up in therapy my whole life. It's so important. And i I th that that's a big part of I think like what I I like to explore on this podcast too is is the the impact that birth has not only on us physically but mentally as well. and it's it's so interesting to see the themes that consistently come up and guilt is often one of them. and and so I really love what you said about it doesn't matter how you want to birth, like, but just knowing that you can have this positive experience. I had someone the other day ask me, like, Well, I'm probably gonna have a C section, you know, I had a C section for my first baby and I'm I'm gonna attempt a VBAC but like I wanna stay open to the idea that I'll end up having a C section again. And if I do end up having a C section or even a planned C section, should I have a doula in the room? And I was like, Why not? Like, why Milli Hill: Mm-hmm. Merelise: not? Like Just because it's a C section doesn't mean that it can't you there can't be things that you do that enhance your experience and make it more positive and and make it more personal and so I you expressed that so beautifully in what you said. Milli Hill: Well, thank you. mean, it is a Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: really important day in women's lives. You know, Merelise: Yes. Milli Hill: I'm a bit older than you and I have to say that there's a lot of days in my life I don't have any memory of whatsoever. By the time you get to the certain age, you Merelise: I know. Milli Hill: think, God, how did that, you know, I don't even know what I did last week. But when it comes to giving birth, you know, that is a day I remember

all three of my birth experiences and I always will. And I've Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: spoken to old ladies who are in their 70s or 80s who still remember everything about it, good or bad. So Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: it's just one of those like really big threshold moments. mean, I'm not comparing Merelise: Mm. Milli Hill: it to a wedding, but you know, it's that sort of, it's a ritual, you know, where you cross a threshold Merelise: Yes. Milli Hill: and you become something different through it. And it's intense and it's, you know, Merelise: Mm. Milli Hill: it's just really important. It's transformative. A positive experience can be very transformative to women. not just in the sense that, you they have a nice birth story to tell, but in the sense that they feel differently about themselves and about their bodies and about their sexuality and about their strength, about their body image, about their Merelise: Mm. Milli Hill: ability to mother, you know, good and bad, Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: all of these, it has a really powerful impact. So it's a really, really important day. And obviously it can't be positive for everyone, but even... Even women who have traumatic experiences where things go in a verticom is wrong, know, where there's an emergency Merelise: Mm-hmm. Milli Hill: or something really difficult happens, if they've got the right environment and the right care providers and, you know, they're properly listened to and cherished and looked after, it can still in some weird way be a positive experience, if that makes sense. Merelise: Yes, absolutely, absolutely. I guess on that note, I'd love to hear your birth stories of your three. Milli Hill: Right, okay. Merelise: Ha ha ha. Milli Hill: Well, as I said, my first pregnancy, which was, I was pregnant in 2007. So my first daughter was born in 2008. And I was really, really, really, really scared of giving birth. I had never heard anything positive about childbirth ever, I don't think. And Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: the kind of school video. I remember being really, really horrific. A bit like sort of, I kind of describe it as kind of like a trip to the dentist gone badly wrong. Merelise: Yes. Yes. I think that's most what most people go like most people's perception, you know, and that's that's part of the problem. Milli Hill: Yeah, so kind of horrific. you know, the first I can still remember, like when I looked, you know, when I did the pregnancy test, I was kind of in the bathroom, just standing in front of mirror, looking at my body and just thinking, my God, there's a baby in there. And then like, my God, it's got to get out. You know, how is this? It's just not possible. Just seemed impossible. So I was very, yeah, Merelise: Yeah. Right. Logically doesn't make sense. Milli Hill: I was very, very scared of it all. And so, like I said, I did a lot of research and Then what happened was I went past my due date. So during the pregnancy, I had a friend who was a midwife and

I've had two friends, two different friends who are midwives and they both said to me, have a home birth. That's the best plan because then you get two midwives. This is at this point in time in the UK. Two midwives come to your house, it's great, have a home birth. So I was like, okay, why not? So I planned to have this home birth. But then I got to my due date and nothing happened. And then I got further and further past my due date and nothing happened. And as soon as I was even near my due date, I think they were sort of ringing me up and saying, you know, when do you want to come in to be induced kind of thing. So I felt under quite a lot of pressure from about sort of 39, 39 and half weeks that Merelise: Mm-hmm. Milli Hill: something, you know, something needed to happen. I needed to go into labour. And I think that pressure is actually really counterproductive. Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: I'm sure it's still happening to women now, the same Merelise: yeah. Milli Hill: thing. And in fact, even earlier now, I think they want to induce that the induction rates have gone up massively since that time, nearly 20 years ago now. So anyway, I did the whole thing of having sweeps. I did everything. I had acupuncture, I had sweeps, I drank castor oil. God, I know honestly, if you ever think, should I pay for colonic irrigation? Would this be a good investment? Don't bother, just get yourself some castor oil, it's about three quid a jar. And it's like the most Merelise: Just take a couple of shots. Milli Hill: effective colonic irrigation you will ever have. Yeah, exactly. Merelise: That's what I've heard. That's what I've heard. Milli Hill: So that wasn't much fun. But actually after I drank the castor oil, I did start to have some kind of more, you know, stronger kind of Braxton Hicks type contractions. And so that evening, I think I was about nearly 42 weeks by that point, I went into the hospital because they wanted to monitor my bump. And... They said, yeah, something's definitely happening. You know, we can really see it on the charts and everything. You're having all these little mini contractions, which I kind of already knew because I could feel them. And then they were like, before you go, we're just going to give you one really, really big or a sweep. So they did. And it was absolutely horrific. And I left, went to the pub on the way home because I didn't have any children then. And, Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: not for obviously anything to drink, but just to go, yeah, you know, gonna have a quick drink. And then went home and nothing happened. And I think that sweep just, you know, if you read Ina May Gaskin or anybody else talking about the behavior of the cervix, it just made my body go, what the hell, know, tense Merelise: Yes. Milli Hill: up, shut. So the next day Merelise: Yes. The sphincter. Milli Hill: nothing was happening. long story short. I ended up going in and having an induction. Merelise: And how did they what was the induction method that they went with? Milli Hill: They use this thing that they refer to as the tea bag. Merelise: I haven't heard that one. Milli Hill: I don't know if they do it anymore, but it's basically like a pessary type thing on a string. So it's got, Merelise: yes. Milli Hill: I don't know what the official name for it is. Merelise: Cervidil Milli Hill: I don't know. I don't know what it was. But yeah. Merelise: Yeah. Yeah. Kinda looks like a tampon. Milli Hill: Yeah. That's what it, that's why they just jokingly call it the tea bag. You know, cause it's like you can get the Merelise: teabag. That's much that's much more English. Yeah. Milli Hill: Yeah, tea bags on string. So the idea of it is that as soon as something gets started, they can take it out. So you don't Merelise: Mm-hmm. Milli Hill: get that kind of your labor started, but you're still getting the, you know, the chemicals. So that's kind of a good idea. Merelise: Right. As opposed like when you take it orally that can happen. Milli Hill: Yeah, and it started quite quickly, sort of early in the early hours of the morning. I'd gone in the night before. And, you know, to be honest, I had a fairly, I mean, I've had a lot of birth stories over the years and I've had a lot of traumatic birth stories. And, you know, by some standards, it was not a traumatic birth, you know, although I ended up having forceps, you know, a lot. most of the labour apart from the very last bit was very holistic. They knew that I was like nervous and also quite clued up so they gave me this really nice room and I had a midwife who I actually did know which is quite unusual but she was a friend of the family and she got herself on the bank of midwives and came in so that was really nice. So I was really well looked after. I didn't have any pain relief. I was mobile because I'd done all my sort of homework and I knew, you Merelise: Mm. Milli Hill: know, what I wanted to do. I had a big deep bath, not a birth pool, but a big deep bath for a lot of it. And yeah, so just towards the end, you know, it's hard to remember now, like what the ins and outs of it were and why, but Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: you know how these things go. It just wasn't happening fast enough. And I think she was maybe back to back they said, but whether or not that was actually Merelise: Mm. Milli Hill: true, I don't think it was, I'm not sure. But Merelise: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Milli Hill: so yeah, this obstetrician came in, when he came in the room, everything kind of changed, the energy changed, I didn't like him very much. What did I nickname him? I had a nickname for him, I think he was Captain Cutlery or something. Anyway. Merelise: Okay. Comes in with all his little instruments and Milli Hill: Yeah, exactly. So yeah, he said, he said, you can have a little bit more time, but then I'm coming back kind of thing. And I know a midwife said to me afterwards, you know, it was, it was pointless. The extra time he gave you was kind of

pointless. It was kind of inevitable at that point because, you know, just things just weren't moving. And so unfortunately I ended up with my feet in stirrups and an episiotomy and forceps delivery, but it was, yeah. Merelise: All without an epidural? Oof. Milli Hill: It's funny. yeah. I think I had some like general, like what you call it, like local anesthetic before Merelise: Yeah, for the psiotomy. Milli Hill: I was cut. Yeah. But apart from that, no. But I don't have any memories of it being astonishingly, traumatically painful. I think I was just in the zone by then and she Merelise: Yeah. Yeah. Milli Hill: came up very quickly and easily. Thank God. So yeah. It was a mixed bag, that birth, I have to say. Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: It wasn't... It was a positive experience in many ways, but I think, you know, when I look at the photos of myself afterwards, I do look like I had been in an accident, you know, I was white as a sheet. That was another Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: thing that I got wrong with the beauty of hindsight, or that everybody looking after me got wrong, was that I didn't eat anything. So I went in Merelise: Mm. Milli Hill: the night before... I don't know if I'd had anything to eat before I went in, but... you know, it's these simple things that can make all the difference. I mean, I'm the kind of person that I can't function with low blood sugar. I just get very, you know, I get these dips and I just can't, I Merelise: Same. Milli Hill: can't make decisions. I can't think. I can't, you know, just need little and often, you know? Merelise: Mm, mhm. Milli Hill: And so, yeah, I hadn't had anything. I woke up in the morning, I was in labor and then I think my daughter was born sort of towards the end of the day. So literally I've gone all day without eating. And I think part of my weakness towards the end was probably just that I should have had something to eat. Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: But I don't know, you just don't think about these things at the time. And obviously nobody around me did either, which is a shame. But. Merelise: Right. And and I don't know how it was in the hospital that you were birthing in, but here they really discourage you to eat and if you're giving birth in a hospital. Milli Hill: well, yeah, that's the American way. And I always find that extraordinary Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: because I just think why, why that's so crazy is because they don't want you to have anything in your stomach in case you have a general, I guess, anesthetic. Yeah, yeah. Merelise: Yeah, yeah, it's it's just all liability. You know, it's all like it like the odds that you're gonna end up having a C section and be completely under are so low. And then the odds that even if you do have a C section and and you're put completely under that you'll aspirate and, you know, choke on on something in your s and your the st your stomach contents are also very low. But, you know, Milli Hill: Yeah, exactly. Merelise: it's it's all about liability, reducing it, unfortunately. Milli Hill: Yeah, which I mean must be really unhelpful for women, especially women. I think all of us need to eat, don't we? you know, especially if you're working Merelise: Yes. Well you would never tell someone Milli Hill: so hard. Merelise: Yeah. You would never tell someone running a marathon, don't fuel your body, you know? Like Yeah. Milli Hill: No, it's crazy. Yeah, that is crazy. mean, in the UK, that is not a thing either. So that's one of the reasons why I think the positive birth movement that I founded was so great was because it allowed these conversations. You know, we're going back, you know, nearly 20 years now to when like Facebook was the social media and it was new. Being on social media was a novelty, wasn't it? And at that time, Merelise: Hm, yes. Milli Hill: social media suddenly allowed women to have conversations like the one we just had and go, Merelise: Mm. Milli Hill: what? They don't let you eat, they let everyone in the UK eat. it's like, suddenly that's really empowering conversation to have because, you you suddenly got information and you can challenge, you know, you Merelise: Mm. Milli Hill: can use that information to challenge. anyway, which I agree. Merelise: Yeah, it was really interesting for no, no, no, not at all. It's all relevant. It was interesting for me, reading your book and being in the US, because there were a lot of things where I would have to go double check and be like, dude, like ca am I gonna have access to that in in the US? and so things like like gas and air, it's not really common in the US Milli Hill: Yeah. Merelise: in hospitals, which is like or a tens machine even, unless you have a doula or you bring your own, they don't really offer it to you. And it's it's just so crazy to me because those are such low there's such low stakes ways to manage pain. And I feel like here it's so often kind of like you're either having like a natural birth, a hundred percent, or you're having an epidural. And what I always tell people is there are so many options between point A and point Z. And just because your doctor might not mention them doesn't mean they're not there. And so that's why I always just always encourage everyone to to do your research. Milli Hill: Yeah, Merelise: But yes, unfortunately gas and Milli Hill: totally. Merelise: air are not very popular in the US and I th they they seem like a great coping mechanism. Milli Hill: That's yeah, such a shame. And I mean, this whole idea of having a natural birth without pain relief is, it needs unpicking a bit anyway, I think, because if you're being put in a situation, like when I look at women in America giving birth in particular, to use that as an example, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that often when you get there, you are put in a hospital gown. You're in a hospital, you have a cannula. in case, usually. So Merelise: Yep. Yep. Milli Hill: all of these things are completely

unnatural ways to give birth. So Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: you're kind of like, if you say to a woman, have you thought about not having any pain relief? It's like, well, if you're putting someone in that environment where it's so medicalised and asking them, you know, and making that challenge, maybe don't have any pain relief, it's kind of like unfair because not having pain, it's not about not having something, it's about having something and you need to have something Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: in place there to to help you to get through it and all of those things are going Merelise: Yes, yes, I said. Milli Hill: to be detracting from you getting through it. Being put in a hospital gown feels weird and unnatural, that's going to Merelise: Right. Milli Hill: affect your body and affect your mind, just that right there. So it's not a natural birth Merelise: Exactly. I Milli Hill: just because you don't have pain relief doesn't make it natural. Merelise: Yes, that's such that's such a good point. It that's so accurate. I know I've really kind of have like shied away from that phrase natural birth when I talk about my own labors because it doesn't feel representative of, you know, what it is. So I I've I I've started saying like low intervention is kind of but I Milli Hill: Yeah. Merelise: even that doesn't quite doesn't quite capture it. But yeah, you're right. You know, I've had a lot of people tell me, I went in and I really was hoping to do it without an epidural in in the hospital and well, I gave up and it didn't work out and you know, all Milli Hill: Yeah, because they didn't have anything to support them. They didn't have the support they needed. Merelise: More times right. Y you weren't set up for success and and yeah, so you're absolutely right. It's it's it's a tricky balance when you're giving birth in the hospital because it's it's not necessarily you know, it's not how nature intended and I think I think maybe it was in your book that I first read about this kind of I'll call it a problem, of the way we have the way we refer to birth almost as a disease or a condition. rather than like something that's supposed to happen naturally with your body, you know. like you mentioned I I know you've talked about this in your book, the the dentist comparison. And Milli Hill: Yeah. Merelise: then you you know, y you say, but like, you know, when you go to the dentist, it's usually 'cause there's something wrong. And there shouldn't inherently be anything wrong when you're giving birth. Of course things happen, but like you're starting from a baseline of it being something that's supposed to be like natural and you know, and supposed to just happen. Milli Hill: Yeah. And when you have a baby, you're kind of at your physical peak as well. Merelise: Right. Milli Hill: You know, you're in your 20s or 30s, you are the strongest and fittest and healthiest you will Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: ever probably be. In Merelise: Yes. Milli Hill: most cases, you know, obviously it depends on your personal situation, but in terms of, know, general speaking generally, you you're at the peak of your physical powers. And then having a baby is, you know, double peak because your body is doing something absolutely incredible that it's probably only going to do once, twice, three times if you're really crazy like me. Merelise: so okay, well speaking of the subsequent babies, so number Milli Hill: Yeah. Merelise: one, love something to be desired. It was positive overall, but just not how you had pictured. And then what was the the the I guess what's the age difference? Like how long was it before you were then doing this again? Milli Hill: Yeah, so there's two years and four months between my Merelise: Okay. Milli Hill: first and my second. And I think three years and four months between my second and my third. Well, obviously, second time around, everybody knows is different, isn't it? Because I Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: think the big difference for me and probably for a lot of women is that I knew that I had to do it this time. There wasn't a way out. Yeah, Merelise: Yes, I know you've seen you've seen what what's about to happen. Milli Hill: there is definitely a baby in there and it is definitely going to come Merelise: Yes. Milli Hill: out of my body somehow, whether I like it or not. Yeah, the first Merelise: Ignorance is bliss is gone. Milli Hill: time I think I was probably in denial about that final part. Merelise: Yeah. Yeah. Milli Hill: So yeah, so I kind of thought about what I was going to do a lot, obviously during that and during the pregnancy and right towards the end of the pregnancy I found out about this thing we have in the UK. In fact, even since then it's kind of become less available to women but we have these, we had and in some cases still have independent midwives. So these are midwives who are fully qualified midwives. Often they have worked in the National Health Service but then they set up their own. independent practice. And so these two independent midwives came to my house one evening when I was about, I don't know, was probably quite quite pregnant. I was probably about seven or eight, seven and a half months pregnant. And they just walked through the door and they were like, my god, it was like just this breath of fresh air. And they were just so lovely. And they made me feel completely different. I just had a lot of anxiety about birth. in the NHS, obviously because of the previous experience, but also because I didn't know whether I was going to know the midwife that I got and they seemed to be a mixed bag and some of them didn't seem very confident about the whole home birth thing. I wanted to have a home birth this time. I wanted a home water birth. And I had some money that was set aside for a deposit on a house. And so I dipped into that. And to be honest, I think it was really, really worth it because it's as discussed, you know, it's just this one day in

your life that you can only do once or twice. And they were just absolutely amazing, these two women. So they just, they kind of like helped me believe in myself and in my body. They had so much confidence in me that I didn't have Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: in myself. And they were like my external. they held that confidence for me and helped me to kind of integrate it. Does that make sense? Merelise: So beautiful. Absolutely. 'Cause I've I've experienced the opposite where I went in and the doctor, you know, I said, I wanna do this with that nepodoral and the doctor was like, All right, well good luck. So yes, I've experienced the opposite, so I can imagine. Milli Hill: Yeah, well, absolutely, of course, we all have in some ways, haven't we, whether it's in birth or in another situation, if the person that is your sort of copilot, whatever, just doesn't think you've got what it takes, then that just really drains you of confidence. So they believed in me and they believed in women and in women's bodies and in birth. So and they just brought that energy into the room in a way that, you know, even thinking about it now, I can still kind of feel the energy that they brought into the room. were just so lush. And I had, I was at home. I had, I woke up. What happened? God, it's terrible how you forget the exact details. It's because I haven't told the story for so long. I'm to have to start telling. Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: They have, they are all written down somewhere, I think. But yeah, Merelise: Yes, yes. Milli Hill: I, yeah, that's right. It was sort of in the morning and I started to feel like something was happening. And so I was really hungry. And so my partner went to the butchers, I remember this bit, and bought like loads of like sausages and bacon and eggs and all this stuff. And we had this, it's a very traditional kind of English breakfast. I don't know if you know that thing, but it's like a sort of Merelise: Yeah. Yes. Milli Hill: cooked breakfast, bacon, eggs, sausages, beans, toast, that kind of thing. So Merelise: Yes, yes. Milli Hill: I had this big high protein meal. And then Merelise: That's great. Yeah. Milli Hill: I went to bed and had for a little nap while my partner looked after our two-year-old and when I got up it was kind of like up early afternoon I was like definitely something is happening and then it just really got going and the midwives got delayed on the way my partner filled up the birth pool I was panicking because I didn't want to get in it because people I'm too obedient it's just part of my personality but you know I was very anxious as well at that point probably not as obedient now as I was then but Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: At that point in time, I was kind of like, I shouldn't get in the birth pool because some people say it can speed things up and the midwives aren't here and blah, blah, I was panicking away. Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: So there was kind of that energy for a little while and then they just came through the door and they were just completely, I mean, when I look back on it, think hats off to them because they could have easily brought that energy of like, shit, we're not going to make it. Cause they were really, really delayed. They lived about an hour Merelise: Yeah. Yeah. Milli Hill: and a half or something away from me. So it's quite a long journey. and they got stuck in some kind of like big problem, traffic problem or something. so, Merelise: Mm, mm. Milli Hill: but they, somehow they just left that all outside the door and they just came in as if everything was absolutely fine. They didn't bring any anxiety or negativity into the room with them and they were amazing. And yeah, so then I got straight in the pool. They were like, what are you doing? Why haven't you gotten in the pool? And I was like, I was waiting for you. I was very emotional and I was very Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: nervous and they just kind of. just kept reassuring me that I could do it. And once I was in the pool, it was absolutely lovely. And we had the lights all down. There were a couple of really lovely moments. It was like the afternoon, so was light outside, but there was one moment, the sun must've been coming kind of lower in the sky. I never really understand how it happened, but this sort of beam of light came through the windows and it struck the birth pool, which you probably know is kind of like a bluish plastic kind of circular thing. And it just Merelise: Yeah. Yeah. Milli Hill: kind of illuminated it and everyone was like, Merelise: Mm. Milli Hill: they were like, have you, have you dropped your torch in the water? So somebody dropped a torch, what's happened? And I was like, why is it all lit up? It was really weird. And it was just this, it Merelise: it's magical. Milli Hill: was really magical. The whole thing just kind of lit up. And there's a photo of me like kneeling down in the bath pool with, and obviously you can't really tell that it's all lit up, but it just, that was the moment. And the other lovely moment was, My partner's sister had come to look after my first born. He was a gorgeous little two-year-old. I the whole thing was incredible that mummy was in this pool in the living room. And they went off for this walk around, because we live in, excuse me, we live in the countryside. And so they'd gone off this walk around the country lanes. And when they came back through the door, she'd picked this bunch of like flowers from the hedgerow and she brought them to me in the birth pool and like, you know what? toddlers alike, know, like, mommy, these flowers for you. And it was just, my God, it was just one of the loveliest moments of my entire life. it was so Merelise: It's making me teary picturing it. That is mad that's so beautiful. my gosh. Milli Hill: lovely. mean, the whole thing was just so, everything was very emotional. And yeah, so now like on her birthday, most years, although some years it doesn't happen, but

I quite often try and pick her a bunch of the same flowers, you know, the girl who was born that day. Merelise: Yes. Milli Hill: Yeah, and it just proceeded as as it should really. mean, although of course, the other thing was that I forgot to say was that I was 42 weeks pregnant when I went into labour. The first time around, as I've explained, I got to nearly that point and then all this hassle began of over the sweeps and inductions. But this time, I went past my due date and I decided with the help of my independent midwives to do nothing, not to have any sweeps, not to have any acupuncture or acupressure or you know curries or pineapples or castor oil or anything else. Merelise: Dates. Yeah. Milli Hill: Yeah, I didn't do anything and so that was quite hard because like I said I didn't know that I was going to go into labour and I doubted, I had this doubt, will I actually go into labour? Maybe there's something wrong with me. Of course there wasn't. But I did go into labour at 42 weeks. So I learnt. from that and from my third baby who was also born at 42 weeks that I am just someone who takes 42 weeks to make a baby. Merelise: Yeah. Yeah. Milli Hill: So yeah, so I'd gone into labor naturally, everything proceeded as it should. I was in the birth pool. Nobody touched me for the whole labor really. I didn't have any vaginal exams. I didn't have any other interventions or I didn't have any gas and air even. Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: because I was managing fine and I don't really like gas and air that much although I know a lot of women do. and yeah, then I've got through transition where I cried a lot and said I couldn't do it. So they were like, yeah, Merelise: Yes. Milli Hill: okay, that's gonna happen soon. Merelise: Yeah. I know. R I know I always tell people if if you think that you can't do it, that means you're about to do it. If you're at that point. Yeah. Milli Hill: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So and then and then the second stage was really quick. And she was born just a few like, like literally a couple of minutes after transition sort of thing. And she was huge. That was the big surprise. She Merelise: How big? Yeah. Milli Hill: was I don't know how you do your weights in America, but in we do in pounds. She was Merelise: Yes, twenty pounds. Yes. Milli Hill: Yes, well she was ten pounds four. I know. No one could believe it. Merelise: that is a big baby. That's a big baby. That's amazing. Milli Hill: Everyone was like, what? Because Merelise: How big was your first? Milli Hill: she was, god, eight something, eight ten or something like that. Merelise: Okay, so almost two pounds. Okay. Milli Hill: So she was quite big, the first one, but no one knew that I was going to have this big baby. And it's just as well because If it had been picked up, I mean, A, it would have terrified me because I would have thought I'm not going to be able to do it. And B, Merelise: Mm. Right. Milli Hill: it would have terrified my care providers as well, I expect. They would have thought she's not going to be able to do it. But as it was, Merelise: Yeah. Yes, that's Milli Hill: it was a complete surprise. Yeah. Merelise: Well well done. and I I was gonna ask you, like throughout this that pregnancy were you having regular scans or less scans 'cause you weren't, you know, in the you know, going to the kind of traditional practice or Milli Hill: I know I had all the scans that were offered, which I think at the time the standard was the 12 week one and then a 20 week one. So that's Merelise: Yeah. Yeah. Milli Hill: I think that's all I don't know if that's changed, but certainly at that point in time, that was all that you got. Merelise: And then they were just measuring your fundle height at appointments and and Milli Hill: Yeah. Yeah. Merelise: nothing indicated that she was gonna be big. Milli Hill: No, not really, no, I don't think so. I mean, I had quite a big bump, but they were like, you're all baby and all the things, you know, it's like, Merelise: I mean, yeah. Milli Hill: no one, no, I mean, no one knew, so. Merelise: Well what a what a blessing. That's that's great because you're so right. I mean, at least over here, oftentimes if a baby is labeled as big, then a lot of times people are pressured into getting a C section just 'cause, you know, the baby is big or Milli Hill: Yeah. Merelise: being induced earlier 'cause they don't want the baby to get too big. And then yeah, there's such this lack this lack of like trust that your body can birth whatever size baby you grow. So it's such a kind of blessing that you didn't you were none the wiser and you just did Milli Hill: Yeah, Merelise: it. Milli Hill: exactly. And I mean, I didn't, I did have a tiny tear, but not enough to warrant any, you know, surgery or stitches or anything. So Merelise: That's amazing. Milli Hill: it was absolutely fine. was absolutely fine afterwards. I had no complications or problems afterwards at all because of her. So I was running up for any other reason. Merelise: That's amazing. Milli Hill: Yeah. And second, the presents are coming out, third stage. I did on the sofa I think and that was very straightforward, no problem. Didn't have any injection for that, just did it naturally and then just had a glass of champagne and then I think we had some, after the midwives left, we had some soup and went to bed. Woke up the next morning and was like, Merelise: Sounds lovely. Milli Hill: my God, there's a baby. Well, obviously it probably was a wake up bit in the night. Merelise: Yeah. Right, right, right. that's that sounds so beautiful. When you were deciding to have a home birth, and I know you had you would originally want a woman with your first as well, but were there Milli Hill: Hmm. Merelise: any fears? Did you have any fears about like what would happen if you needed intervention? I I just I asked because I feel like that's commonly, you know, cited as like the reason to not have a home birth or why people

don't end up having a home birth. So I'm just curious if if you worked through any of that or you just Felt confident. Milli Hill: think that the reassurance that I was given by lots of different people, including an obstetrician, obviously Merelise: Mm. Milli Hill: who's got much more authority than the midwife, no I'm just joking, but you know what I mean, everybody, even Merelise: Yeah. Yes. Milli Hill: the more medicalised person said that Merelise: Yeah, that's unusual. Milli Hill: you can see problems coming a long way off. Merelise: Mm. Milli Hill: I mean I probably only about 15 minutes from hospital so if I Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: needed to go to hospital they, what everyone told me and I still believe them is that if there's a you know if there's a problem in in labor it's you can you know it's it's very unlikely to be suddenly like a lightning bolt you know coming down everybody falls on the floor blood starts spurting everywhere that isn't how Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: problems in labor happen you know so you Merelise: Right. Milli Hill: can see something isn't going as it should And so I just believed that and I also felt in that labour, I never felt worried because it just was proceeding. You could feel it had a momentum. Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: So no, I didn't feel worried about that aspect at all because I trusted that Merelise: Good. Milli Hill: the women who were looking after me knew exactly what they were doing and that they Merelise: Mm, mm-hmm. Milli Hill: would take good care of me in the same way as they would in a hospital. I mean... Being in hospital, there's only a few things that you don't have in a home setting that you do have in hospital. Merelise: Right. Right. Milli Hill: So, yeah, I wasn't worried. Merelise: well that sounds like the dreamiest birth I could ever imagine. Milli Hill: It was pretty good. Yeah, that was a pretty good one. Yeah. So yeah. Go Merelise: Yeah. Pretty positive. was your Milli Hill: on. Merelise: I was gonna say, was your first was your first daughter there when your second was born, or was she in a different room? Milli Hill: She was not in the room, I don't think, but she was kind of on the stairs or around. There's some Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: family mythology around this, like who was witnessing which birth and I Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: think that there's a muddle up between which ones they remember being watching. Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: I don't know, I was concentrating on something else, so I don't remember. Merelise: Yes, yes. Understandable. Milli Hill: Yeah, she was around and it was really and she was I've got some great photos actually of Merelise: I would love to see them. Milli Hill: getting in the pool after the baby after my second daughter was born. So and she her little face was just like she was sounded. It was so cool. I did a photo. Yeah. Merelise: That's so cute. I love that. Yes. And so then sometime in between, then in your third, you wrote The

Positive Birth Book. Milli Hill: Yeah, I mean, actually, no, I wrote the book in 2017, by which time I had had three children. Merelise: okay. It was after your third, okay. Milli Hill: Yeah, but after the second one was when I started the Positive Birth Movement, which Merelise: Hm. Milli Hill: was an organisation of like, antenatal groups, real life, not virtual, real life groups Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: where women could go, hear positive birth stories, meet other women, talk about the whole thing, but also be connected by this big umbrella using Facebook at the time, social Merelise: Mm. Milli Hill: media to link women up all around the world so that all of these conversations could be had outside of your kind of local bubble and that that would help women to kind of get more informed as previously discussed. Merelise: That's amazing. That's amazing. Milli Hill: But yeah, so at that time after my second, I was writing a lot about childbirth in Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: the media and running the positive birth movement. you know, I think having the second birth gave me that confidence to, Merelise: Mm. Milli Hill: you know, feel that I could speak about different birth experiences, I suppose, because I'd had a positive experience and a more complicated experience, although not necessarily not positive. Merelise: Right. Well, I was gonna say that's quite I feel like you really, you get like that that badge of honor. you know, you you birthed a ten pound baby. That's like really a a badge of honor. It's like you you know, you know, my my my two Milli Hill: I know. Merelise: boys were in in the sixes and so no, that's that's absolutely incredible that you did that. And I'm curious, as you started to kind of write more about this and as you founded the movement, how did you navigate, you know, we as you as you mentioned previously, it's a sensitive topic. How did you navigate kind of getting the credentials or feeling like you were you know, like qualified, I guess, to to start talking about all of this? Milli Hill: Well, I mean, I wasn't in a way any more than any other mum is. Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: And I tried very much not to make it all about me because I Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: was just really holding the strings of it all. really a lot of Merelise: Mm, mm. Milli Hill: the work that I was doing was sitting at a desk, working on a computer, linking things up, adding new groups to the website, talking to... women. But I guess through that, and through writing about birth, I got some credibility and authority because I'd done a lot of research into it. I'd written a lot of articles, I'd heard a lot of birth stories, I'd spoken to a lot of women, and I'd launched sort of online campaigns about positivity. You know, one of them that was very viral was, birth just happened, was the hashtag. it back in the day when hashtags were really a big thing, you know, like viral hashtags. Merelise: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Milli Hill: and so, you know,

that was a really big thing because it was like, the, the whole concept, seems like crazy now, but at the time, the whole concept of women sharing images like that online was new. Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: images that when they just given birth, they just caught their own baby and they're holding the baby on their chest and they looked. Merelise: Right. Milli Hill: radiant and amazing. People had never seen those sorts of pictures. Merelise: Right. Milli Hill: Like you said at the beginning, when we were chatting, can't remember if it was before we started recording or not, but about that kind of the portrayal of birth in the media as this kind of either the sort of horrible, dental appointment gone wrong, or as this kind of emergency where the woman was kind of on her back in distress and everyone's running around and all of that sort of Merelise: Mm. Milli Hill: one born every minute was a program that we had in the UK. Merelise: Mm-hmm. Milli Hill: around about the same time that people watched avidly Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: and it was just so medicalized and the woman was so voiceless Merelise: Yeah. Yeah. Milli Hill: in that representation. So seeing Merelise: Mm. Milli Hill: these images and then as it moved into video and obviously now Merelise: Mm-hmm. Milli Hill: you can go on Instagram or TikTok and see women giving birth just like that, no problem. But you couldn't then. It Merelise: Yes. I know, it's so cool. No. Milli Hill: was new, it was a whole new concept and it absolutely smashed a lot of you know, barriers and norms because women were like, whoa, I want that. You know, I want a birth like that. They didn't know that was Merelise: Yeah. Yeah. Milli Hill: possible. They hadn't seen it. You know, that saying you can't be what you can't see. So Merelise: Exactly. Yeah. Milli Hill: yeah, all of that was really, powerful and important. so, yeah, I mean, I didn't, like I say, I was pushing that sort of more feminist narrative. Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: but I didn't have any authority. I'm not a midwife. I did do doula training, but I only ever worked with one woman. like you, the fact that I had small children just made it impossible. And then I started this positive birth movement and I was completely absorbed running that and I didn't have time to go and be anybody's doula because I was already... Merelise: I know. Milli Hill: raising two and then three small children and running like a global organization from my laptop. Merelise: We were kind of being like a million people's virtual doula. Yeah. Exactly. Milli Hill: Yeah, exactly. That's what I thought. I thought I am contributing something to this situation. I don't actually have to go and be one person's steeler. I'm still trying to do quite a lot to help here. Yeah. Merelise: Yes, exactly. Ugh well that's incredible. And so then when you're you got pregnant with your third, did you know you wanted to have another home birth? Or was there anything it sounds like you probably wouldn't have done anything differently, but what were you thinking? Milli Hill: Well, I was nervous again, but Merelise: Mm. Milli Hill: this time for a different reason. It was my third baby. When we had the scan, the 20 week scan, I thought I saw that it was a boy, but I kind of unsaw it because I liked finding out at the birth, but I kind of knew it was a boy. Merelise: I did the same, yeah. Milli Hill: And so I thought the last one was 10 pounds four. And in fact, a doctor had said to me when I was at... the doctors for something different and happened to mention it. He said, well, they won't let you have a home birth again. When I told him that my second baby was 10 pounds four, even though I popped her out like a peanut out of a shell Merelise: Right. Milli Hill: and it wasn't a problem. So I had that in the back of all these things, this negative voices kind of stay with you, don't they? So I had that in the back of my mind. was thinking if it's a boy, maybe it's going to be bigger than 10 pounds four. And then the other thing was that I was running this global positive birth movement and I was writing a column every week for a magazine and it was, they were going viral. All of these columns, everybody knew who I was in terms of pregnancy and birth. And Merelise: Mm-hmm. Milli Hill: I just felt like this is, I felt scared because I thought if something goes wrong. I'm gonna be on the front page of the papers and there'll be that kind of glee that you get sometimes in these situations of like, know, natural birth guru dies in Merelise: Right. Milli Hill: home birth, blood bath or something. Sorry. Merelise: Yes. What's the d what's the no no no. What's the German phrase for it? you know, yes, Schadenfreud, thank you. Yes, I I know Milli Hill: Schadenfreude. Yes. Merelise: I know exactly what you mean of that like yeah, that fear of like, well now I've put myself out there so I can't screw it up and yeah. Milli Hill: Yeah, like I felt like I could be potentially screwing up more than just my own situation. could, Merelise: Right. Milli Hill: you know, it could be rep, I could be taken as a representative for this, this idea that birth can be positive. And then what Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: if something went wrong that could be used to show all women what the perils of getting ideas above Merelise: Right. Milli Hill: your station, you know. Merelise: Did yes, to dismantle the whole thing. It's so crazy how one negative story can do that. But yes. Milli Hill: Yeah, so I had a lot of fear, but I did decide to like just go ahead and have a home birth anyway, but I kind Merelise: Mm-hmm. Milli Hill: of kept it quite low key. I didn't sort of talk about it too much and I didn't like stream it live or anything. I mean, people were doing that at the time and I wouldn't have Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: wanted to do that because I feel like, you know, introducing anything like that into the birth room could potentially, you know, make it

more difficult for your body to labor anyway. Merelise: Relax. Yeah. Milli Hill: But I didn't have a photographer or anything like that because I just felt like I was going to keep my head down and just do this. So yeah, I did. And again, I had an independent midwife, a different woman this time, and she was absolutely gorgeous and lovely and amazing. yeah, was it was slightly different. The labor was was different to the second time in that. I, instead of going into labour in the daytime, I went into labour, sort of, as I went to bed that night, I got into bed. I'd been feeling a bit funny. I was at 42 weeks again, as I said. Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: And then I got into bed and my waters broke. And that had never happened to me before. Both times before my waters had broken like sort of three quarters of the way through labour. But Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: this time my waters broke like they do in the movies before I'd actually got going. And... And that was quite shocking because there was a lot of water. I was quite surprised. Merelise: Yes, yes. My water broke in both of my labors. And it is crazy. You think it's gonna stop at some point, but it just keeps going and going. Milli Hill: Yeah, in the end, my midwife said just get in the birth pool and then you don't have to think about it anymore. So that's what I did. Merelise: Yeah. Yeah. Smart. Milli Hill: Yeah, exactly. So yeah, she, I was a bit, you know, I was anxious and nervous, like I said, for other reasons. And, but she was great. And I got in the birth pool and I kind of spent all night in the birth pool. Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: baby was born first thing in the morning, like six, morning or something. He wasn't quite as big as his sister. He was nine pounds 11. So Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: my my fears of a giant boy baby were not entirely founded. I mean, he wasn't like 13 pounds or something, which was what I was imagining. No. Merelise: Yes. Right. Nine pounds is nothing to sneeze at, but Milli Hill: But it was again, it was absolutely straightforward, very similar. Once I got to the pushing stage, it was literally a matter of minutes. And he was born and yeah, it was all good. It was lovely. Merelise: Amazing. And did you Yeah. that's amazing. I it's it's interesting. with your background in psychology, I know that I think it's in Ina May's book. She talks about how it's really important to address any fears about birth you have beforehand 'cause that can that can, you know, can h hold labor up, stall labor in some ways. Like, you know, I think in her book she's got or one of her books she's got examples of you know, someone whose labor just kind of like stalled out and it's cause they were holding on to this like a this fear or this emotional obstacle. And I'm just curious, like, given your background in psychology especially, was that something that you tried to kind of work through prior to that birth or I mean it sounds like you had a lot going on, so no judgment if you didn't, but Milli Hill: Yeah, no, I mean, I think I did, you know, having sort of trained as a therapist and had lots of therapy myself as I was training. Yeah, I probably did address the kind of psychological aspects, but I mean, I'm not sure that I 100 % believe that that is 100 % true because it, Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: I mean, there is something pretty inexplicable about the whole thing in the way that like, For some women, you know, they just, they have a baby very quickly and easily in a complicated situation, which isn't ideal. Merelise: Right. Milli Hill: Other women have everything lined up and it doesn't go straightforward. And Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: I don't think that can all be put down to mindset. And also obviously a lot of what's, what may be really blocking for us is unconscious. And you Merelise: Mm. Milli Hill: can't see your unconscious or, you know, make your... unconscious conscious very easily. I don't Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: know, I think it's more complicated than that. But yes, I did, I did try very hard to work on my mindset. Definitely, I think that's really important. I never did hypnobirthing, because, Merelise: Mm. Milli Hill: and I think but I think hypnobirthing is actually great, because I think it does what I kind of already knew how to do because of my Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: background in, you know, therapy, which is just, you know, explore your face your fears, explore your Merelise: Right. Milli Hill: negative thoughts, unpick them, unravel them, trace them back, all of those things. I did a lot of that, yeah. Merelise: Yeah. Yeah. I didn't do Hitman Birthing with either of mine, but I I've always thought that if I did have a third I I think I would look into that more. It seems amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Milli Hill: Hmm, yeah. But I think a lot of the, I mean, obviously when you do hypnobirthing, there's exercises and breathing and that kind of stuff, but I think a lot of the hypnobirthing sessions are also a bit like kind of therapeutic in Merelise: Therapeutic. Milli Hill: the sense of talking you through your fears, know, challenging them, that kind of thing. I think that's very helpful Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: for pregnant women. Merelise: Yeah. well, so then once you had had your son, w did you how did you kind of I guess now that you were like in you know, in the public eye in the birth world, did you share your story with people? Like how what how did that this new kind of role you were living in, how did that change like the the postpartum period, I guess, with your son? Milli Hill: It didn't particularly, I didn't really go in for that. I didn't want to be like the face of anything. Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: it wasn't about me. Merelise: Mm-hmm. Milli Hill: and it's really nice that you've asked me to tell my birth stories today, but I used to get asked a lot by journalists, like, what were your births like and everything? And I was like, I'm not really doing this because of

what my births were like. I'm doing it because of like Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: all the women that I know and all the women that I've spoken to and what their births were like and the bigger picture, you know, it's not just about my experiences. It's about, you know, how it, the whole. thing is operating, the whole system is operating. Do you know what I mean? Merelise: absolutely. I think that's very much like how I feel about this podcast too. you know, very few births that I've shared on this podcast are like my birth. You know, it's like, yeah, it's it's not about me, it's not about one woman, it's about the collective. and that's the beauty in it too. It's something I always say is that every birth is so different. Like I'm even you know, fr within the same mom and and dad and it can all be the sa the same environment and it can still be completely different and and so yeah, it's but I absolutely understand what you mean about. Like it's not it's not about you. It's yeah, it's about it's about the something bigger. Milli Hill: Yeah, and I mean, that's something bigger, certainly in the UK, it's got a lot worse in the past five or 10 years. The medicalisation of childbirth is just like a monster that just keeps marching forwards. It's horrendous what's happening to birth at the moment. Merelise: it's interesting, you know, like like you said, birth has become so med medicalized and yeah, I I often say like I I feel like we've lost the plot a little bit as women about the power we have in our own births and we've put so much faith and trust in this institution at at the same time they aren't trained to to kind of give us this they aren't trained to treat it the way that that we should be treating it and that's not as a an issue, it's as a natural process and I anyways all that to say I I just feel like it's It's so important for us to take more ownership in the process as women and as moms. Milli Hill: Yeah, that's the tricky thing, isn't it? And it's all of these things are kind of vicious circus, like you say, like the, the, the professionals involved in birth, you know, the less normal or natural or straightforward or positive births they see, the more they're going to, it's becoming ingrained that the birth is complicated and is, you know, doesn't, the female body just doesn't really work very well. Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: and then that trickles down to women as well who feel like, well, birth is really dangerous and my body probably won't work and so I'm going to need all the help I can get. So I shall just not, you know, I'll just have myself over kind of thing. And that problem is just keeps perpetuating itself, I think. But women can break Merelise: Yeah, exactly. And yet Milli Hill: the cycle by just reading a book or watching a video or listening to a podcast or talking to another woman. And just the tiniest Merelise: Exactly. Milli Hill: positive message can sort of just nudge you off in a new direction. Yeah, yeah. Merelise:

Changed the trajectory. Yes, yes. I have a a friend, an amazing man. He's been on the podcast. His name is Charles Johnson. I I don't know if you're familiar with the story. He's a huge advocate for maternal mental health in the US. And his wife died in childbirth with a scheduled C-section. And I he like he is doing all this to enact change at like the legislative level. And like he's up in DC and lobbying and doing all these. incredible things and I told him I like, you know, you're you're up there trying to impact change at at this massive like level that's so important. And I feel like my podcast is like this little grassroots movement, trying to you know, we're all marching towards the same goal, just in different ways. And and like you said, like you never know when one story or one thing someone hears is gonna is gonna change the trajectory of their birth experience and then the ripples that can happen from there. Milli Hill: Yes, absolutely. Same as my book, you know, like we were saying earlier on Merelise: Yes. Milli Hill: that, you know, it's just lovely, even if it only helps one woman, it's like amazing, isn't it? Because that's a whole Merelise: Yes. Milli Hill: life that's gone on a different path. Merelise: That's right. Milli Hill: And those ripples of having that birth experience go out way further than just the day itself. You know, they stay with that woman. They can affect her future mental health, her child's mental health, her bond with her child. Not that... don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that difficult birth means you can't bond with your baby. I just want to make that clear. But you know, they can Merelise: Yes, yeah. Milli Hill: they can have an impact on all of those things. And it can also have an impact on the woman's self esteem, her body image, you know, her, sense of self, her courage, her, her sense of her own power, all of these things that then have an impact on her career, her relationships, her aging, her menopause, you know? Yeah. Merelise: Yes. Yeah. And how she mothers, how she mothers and that and then, you know, this generational, yeah, it's it's huge. It's it's yeah, it's huge. Milli Hill: is. Merelise: Well, thank you so much for talking to me today. It has been just so incredible. I I'm still pinching myself that that you are here on my podcast and we're talking about this. true, it's true. Milli Hill: Bless you. I feel so sweet. Thank you. You're very sweet. Merelise: I always like to end the podcast by asking my guests to describe birth in three words, just whatever comes to mind first. Milli Hill: gosh, right, okay, let me think. Well, powerful, transformative. threshold. Merelise: I love that. A threshold. Yes. You know, you you're stepping through into a different life, a different version of yourself. And, you know, when you give birth that first time it's from non mother to mother, but even then all the subsequent births, I think the mother that you were changes too. yeah. Milli Hill: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It's always a new version of yourself. In fact, I just plug my new book because, well, no, Merelise: Yeah. Yes, please. I know I I I was gonna bring that up. Yes, actually I would love to hear about that. Yeah. Milli Hill: I wasn't going to plug it, but I just went, what you were saying reminded me of it, which is that it's, it's called The Body Myth and it's about the female body throughout life. But Merelise: Yes. Milli Hill: I've come up with this word in the book, which is a new word that I've made up and it's called the matriflux. And the matriflux is basically, you know, the way that the fem- as a female person throughout life, you go through all of these transformations, you cross all of these thresholds, you have all these different versions of yourself, you shape shift, literally, like through if you have, particularly if you're pregnant, but I mean, in other ways as well. Merelise: Physically and mentally. Milli Hill: Yeah, and so it's, it's a very different experience being female. to being male. And part of what the book is about is that we live in a very male-centric world that was built by men and for men. And kind of like, it wasn't really built for people who have a matriflux, it was kind of built Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: for people who are basically, once they've gone through adolescence, are kind of like stay on a straight line all the way through. And they just fall off the end. Merelise: Kind of static. Yeah. Yeah. Milli Hill: Whereas we kind of go, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, Merelise: Yes. Milli Hill: woo, woo, woo, who aren't watching this visually, waving my hands around. You know, we have all these different, Merelise: Yeah. It's a roller coaster. Milli Hill: all this constant change. And Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: that makes us quite different because we have to be so adaptable and we have to reinvent ourselves. know, a lot of women really relate to the reinvention through motherhood because, I mean, I Merelise: Yes. Milli Hill: did it. I was a therapist and now I'm a writer. Merelise: Right. Milli Hill: know, many women start new. projects, careers, versions of themselves. Exactly, you've done it. But then Menopause Merelise: Me? Yeah. Yeah. Milli Hill: is another massive one where everything gets burned down in a massive, like, chaotic fire. And then afterwards you, like, rise up from the ashes and you have another version of yourself, you know? Merelise: Yes. Milli Hill: And all of these things are really, really unique to being a woman. That's partly what this new book is about anyway. It's out on the 16th of July. Merelise: I cannot wait to read it. I'm so excited. I it's you're so right. I mean, I could talk about that for another hour with you. It's it's so unique and it's so special and I think it makes us so one of the many things that makes us so incredible and so strong as women. You know, all these different physical Milli Hill: Yeah. Merelise: and mental changes we have to go

through. Like the evolution to motherhood is so intense and transformative, and then But then that's not like you said, that's not where it stops. Then all of a sudden now you're going through this period of menopause where you you're still a mother, but you no longer can become a mother again, right? Like like physically you're changing, you're entering this you know, going from from maiden to mother to crone. And I hate the word crone, but you it's like this more Milli Hill: You Merelise: this like wisdom and you know, you're no longer in your birthing years and so much of what defined you for the last twenty years or so is is gone or is different. And and how do you Milli Hill: Yeah. Merelise: adjust to that and and you're right, this is some something that men don't go through at all. Like there's nothing really to compare it to. And I don't know, hats hats off to us. Milli Hill: Yeah. But also the, yeah, absolutely. And at the macro level as well, we're doing it every month when you are menstruating, Merelise: Yeah. Yes. Milli Hill: you know, you are going through this cycle every month where Merelise: Yes. Milli Hill: you are slightly different versions of yourself as you go through that cycle. And it is like, you know, people compare it to the seasons, you know, you're going through spring, summer, winter. So you've got cycles within cycles as well. As part of this big matriflux, you've got little mini matrifluxes. Merelise: Yes. Milli Hill: So you're very used to that idea of change and transformation and kind of growth and shedding and rebirth and all of those things because they happen to every month. Merelise: man, you've really got my wheels turning. This is so Milli Hill: Hahaha Merelise: interesting. Do you talk about that in your book My Period? Is that part of that as well? Milli Hill: Well, that book is for pre-teens. So yeah, Merelise: Yeah, okay. Milli Hill: there is quite a lot about cycles in that period book, because we're not really taught when we're taught about periods, often we're just taught about the period, you know, Merelise: Right. Milli Hill: what products to use, what to do about the pain. Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: It's kind of a little bit similar to the way we're taught about birth really. We're not really taught Merelise: Mm. Milli Hill: about the cycle. Merelise: Yes. Milli Hill: not taught, well I certainly wasn't taught about ovulation really at all. Merelise: No, no. Milli Hill: And I was in my kind of 20s when my friend said something to me about, she went, I was like what's up? She said it's all right I'm just ovulating. I was like what? I didn't know Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: that you could, and as soon as she told me I was like I just felt myself ovulating and I didn't, Merelise: Yes. Milli Hill: I didn't know when her told me that that was a thing and I so I didn't. I didn't feel it, but I didn't know that's what it was. Merelise: What it was. Milli Hill: So there's so many things like that that are in the book that I think are really nice for young girls to know as part of their body literacy, really, rather than just focusing Merelise: Yes. Milli Hill: on, I use tampons or shall I use pads? There's a lot more cool stuff. Yeah, yeah. Merelise: Right, exactly. And how bad are my cramps? Yes. It's interesting. I was I was feeling that ovulation pain yesterday. It's funny you bring it up. But Milli Hill: There you go. Merelise: it's it's interesting because yeah, I mean, my mother was really wonderful and beautiful about embracing the changes that came with the period. Like when I got my period, she took me to go to like formal tea at the Ritz Carlton and like celebrated. It was Milli Hill: that's lovely. Merelise: beautiful and lovely and and it was so wonderful. But at the same time, you know, I didn't learn anything else. about the the different phases of the cycle. You know, it was just not period and period. And there was Milli Hill: Yeah. Merelise: like you said, there was no none of this discussion about ovulation and and luteal and like, you all all the things in between and and yeah, there's just so much more to it. And you're right, we just really boil it down. Milli Hill: Yeah, yeah, we do, yeah. But it all affects us, doesn't it? It affects how we feel Merelise: Mm. Milli Hill: and how we operate. Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: we're kind of maybe sometimes feel we should cover it up and not sort of talk about it too much because we want to get on in a man's world. You we don't want people Merelise: Mm. Milli Hill: to think, she's not coming today because she's got a period, you know, or she's having Merelise: Right. Milli Hill: a menopause stuff. You know, it's like, we've Merelise: Yeah. Milli Hill: got to compete. and be like men. So we've got to be Merelise: Right. Milli Hill: the straight line. You we can't betray our femaleness too much. Whereas in fact, the Merelise: Mm, mm. Milli Hill: only reason it's like that is because we're, we're existing in this world that we're, you know, that was built around people who don't have a cycle or any Merelise: Right. Milli Hill: cycles or a menopause or pregnancy or anything else. It was all built for them by them. And so we kind of feel like, well, we want to get on in that world. We better not go on about it too much, you know? So I think it's, yeah. Merelise: Yeah. Yes. Yeah, it's so interesting. I my friend Charles that I mentioned, who's an amazing advocate, he he o he says this thing and it's such a beautiful thing for a man to say. Like and it it reminds me of what you're talking about. the way that like I think we kinda you know, women are expected to shrink or fit into this mold, but he always says, like, in the context of why do people not care about women's issues and and in maternal health in particular, he always says, You either are a mama or you got a mama. So, you Milli Hill: Yeah. Merelise: know, it's relevant to all of us. So like w why why why are we shrinking and trying to change and fit into this this mold when we are we are the life givers, you know, and it's yeah. Milli Hill: Yeah, that reminds me of the time someone I was working with who was also writing about birth was told it was a niche issue. It's not a niche issue because like Merelise: Yeah, right? Milli Hill: you just said, you either are going to have a baby or you were born. Everybody was either Merelise: Yes. Milli Hill: born or they're going to have a baby or both. So it's not niche. Merelise: Exactly. Exactly. No, it's not niche at all. It's quite universal. Milli Hill: Yeah. Merelise: my goodness. Well, Milli, thank you so, so much. I really appreciate this. It's been so fun and just energizing and thank you. Milli Hill: thank you so much for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure to especially to dredge through my memories and find my birth, those birth stories that I haven't needed to take out and give them a bit of a dust, didn't I? Yeah, good, good. No, they're definitely recorded a while ago, but I just actually haven't thought about Merelise: Well now you've got them recorded, so you know, anytime they can listen, yes. Yeah. Milli Hill: them for quite a long time myself. So it's nice to do that. Merelise: Well, thank you for taking a step back in time with me. Milli Hill: Thank you so much. Merelise: Course. All right, well, you've been listening to the Arrivals podcast. Until next time.