ABOUT THIS EPISODE

How does the Iran Contra investigation compare to the Russia investigation today? We go behind the scenes with Michael Bromwich, a lawyer who worked on the Iran Contra case. He tells us what it’s like to delve into the dealings of America’s most powerful players.

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English
United States

TRANSCRIPT

00:00:11I'm Lindsey Graham this is American skin
00:00:35today we wrap up our series on Iran Contra Scandal that began in the dark alleys of Beirut the jungles and Nicaragua converged in the basement of the White House and was finally revealed to the public by the president himself from the Oval Office and for over six years beginning a 1986 this Scandal was under investigation by independent counsel Lawrence Walsh and his team today will be speaking to one of the prosecutors on that team Michael Bromwich as associate counsel in the office of the independent counsel theater on Contra vestigation he worked alongside special prosecutor Lawrence Walsh from the very start of the investigation I'll bring Oliver North to trial will discuss his decision to join the investigation how an investigation of this size and scope works his frustrations at the overturning
00:01:20Auburn what's connections and what is 30 year old scandal from teachers today Michael Bromwich join me from his office in Washington DC I hope you enjoy our conversation
00:01:38Michael Bromwich thank you very much for talking to us on American Scandal my pleasure so this was largely held away from the public and Congressional view for a long long time but in the end of 1986 some things happened and it happened rather quickly November 3rd 1986 11 East magazine al-sharia reports that the US has been sending spare parts and ammunition to a Ron in return for release of American hostages not but a few weeks later November 25th Attorney General Ed Meese publicly announces that the diversion that this is more than just Anna Runyan scandal
00:02:26that is linked to the Nicaraguan contras and he and Reagan announces Admiral Poindexter his resignation and Colonel North's dismissal then just a few weeks after that January 6th or 7th you are working on this case the sending the house committees are set up to investigate the affair how did you come to be part of the team so I was in the United States attorney's office in the southern district of New York and as I recall it I was actually trying a complicated organized crime and narcotics case in October and November and I think into early December so what was going on with respect to the the reporting that you just described I only knew dimly in the back of my mind when the trial was over probably early December I woke up more to what was going on and I remember very clearly that
00:03:25and I were driving out to Princeton New Jersey to visit my brother who was teaching out there and I mentioned to her that a friend of mine and just taking a job on the house select committee to investigate a rim Contra and she turned to me and said would you be interested in doing something like that and I said well I I might be but we would have to be in Washington and we moved away from Washington because you wanted to come to New York we had at that time a 5 month old baby who had been challenging colicky and all other sorts of infant issues and so my wife was all of a sudden interested in the possibility of moving back to DC having a less pressured a work-life balance a less pressure job and so would she expressed an interest I said well okay if that's something you might be interested in let me see what I can do to explore that so long
00:04:25story short I alerted my supervisor in the US attorney's office that I might be interested I knew that she was connected with Bob Fisk who is serving as the talent Hunter for judge Walsh have been appointed the independent Counsel on December 19th and I recall being interviewed at the Davis Polk Law Firm I think it was December 31st about taking a job now Strangely I had been talked to about being promoted in the US attorney's office by Rudy Giuliani it was in the US attorney to be the chief of the narcotics unit which is the unit I'd been in for several years and I alerted him I said you know I'm interviewing for a job with the antenna council's office don't know whether I'll get it don't know if I'll take it if I get it and he said confidently well you won't take that job so I'm going to go ahead and promote you so he did promote me to be the chief of narcotics unit and I
00:05:25I am the shortest tenured chief of the narcotics unit in the history of the United States attorney's office I was in the job for a full two weeks so I got the job offer within a couple of days of the interview and I came down to DC and we had our first meeting I think it was January 7th there were seven of us not counting judge Walsh and we started in right then personally for you then this is a lot of uncertainty in turmoil I mean you wanted to move back to DC what was it about this job that that's attracted you well it was clearly a very important investigation it was a high-profile investigation it had all sorts of intriguing elements associated with it as you said the alarm sales to Iran the potential diversion of funds to the contras in Nicaragua it sounded extremely interesting
00:06:25anybody who gets into the kind of work that I had been doing for the previous four years that is doing investigations doing criminal trials is intrigued when something this big this major comes along I think there is a strong temptation to see what you can do to be a part of that it may be a part of history and so that really was what that what drove me to express interest in it and ultimately interview for it and to take the job so now you're early January 1987 you're in DC and you've hit the ground running small team 7 lawyers + judge Walsh I think many people are interested in really what the tasks and roles of these investigative units are they seem to be in a band of brothers out on a mission but what is the what is the day-to-day process of working on a special counsel investigation what were your first tasks
00:07:23well the FBI had actually been working on the investigation for some time that a very good and strong team of agents that had been working on it for well over a month and they had already briefed judge Walsh in a couple of the senior age that he had brought into to service his deputies not with the title but in fact and so one of the initial things we had to do was just her get on top of the information that the FBI had collected and was still in the process of collecting and that included the collection of documents from the National Security Council staff the beginnings of collecting documents from other agencies that had knowledge and were involved in dealings both with Iran and with the contras in Nicaragua involved understanding who they had her who the agent said already interviewed who they thought needed to be interviewed next and so forth and so one of the sensitive issues that says
00:08:23associated with this when you really start working with a group of agents in this case FBI agents who've been working on the matter for a while is you've got to be respectful of them you got to realize that they know more than you do at that point and you also have to try to be as graceful as possible about really taking over the investigation because the decisions are now going to be in the hands of the independent counsel and the independent counsel as lawyers rather than the FBI so I think one of the interpersonal challenges that you face is her dealing with that in a considerate way the FBI is now working with you but in a sense for you whereas before you've arrived on the scene they were really in charge
00:09:05what are you able to navigate those challenges well was there a Strife that you've either can't or unweighted well I think we were lucky we had a very good and very professional group of Asian starting with the senior agent on the team and really threw out the the group of Nations that had been assigned by Jack Webster who is the director of the FBI at the time to work on the investigation so I think we were extremely fortunate that we had a terrific group of agents to work with and that a number of us even among the original group of seven and even more so when additional lawyers were added to the staff we've been prosecutors would work with agents we knew what the Dynamics or we knew the respect that we needed to show them because they deserved it and so although there were from time to time differences of opinion and different approaches I think the relationship between the agents in the lawyers was quite good and quite constructive really over the
00:10:05full two and a half years that I was part of the team investigation was Judge Lawrence Walsh did you know him well or at all before joining the team know I had never met him I don't remember whether I don't think I'd ever heard of him I mean judge Walsh was significantly older than I was he was in his mid-70s I was 33 I think at the time he had been he had actually been a federal judge a federal trial judge and the the year 1953 sticks in my mind and he either began or ended his tenure as a federal judge that year and that happened to be the year that I was born so there was a real generational difference between us he had already can I have taken the heights of the profession as a federal judge and I literally was born the same year as
00:11:05either got a got on the bench were left the bench and then of course he had become the deputy attorney general in the Eisenhower Administration I was born six months after the beginning of the Eisenhower Administration and was only about eight years old at the end of the Eisenhower Administration so there was an enormous generational difference between us I certainly Knew by the time I joined the staff what he had done in his career very interesting things he's done his career but no I never heard of him never met him never work with him before that generational divide manifest itself I mean sounds like you are a dedicated but Scrappy bunch of young lawyers and this is a much older accomplice Patrician leader how did he motivates you to to move forward
00:11:56I think the work motivated Us by itself and I think I could judge Walsh was nothing if not respectful of the views of the members of his staff he had certain strong views of his own but one of his strengths was really being willing to listen to different views of people who came from different backgrounds George Washington ever been a federal prosecutor before giving a local prosecutor in New York had worked for the then my busting Tom Dewey and the Manhattan District Attorney's office but he'd never been a federal prosecutor in and many of us certainly among the initial 7 and then as we strengthened our staff and terms of numbers of the majority of us came from federal prosecutor all backgrounds and so I think he realized he had a lot to learn from us about putting together and bring a federal case and obviously we took advantage of his vast experience in
00:12:56mileage to working on complicated cases over the course of his 50-year career
00:13:03well let's talk about the case itself a little bit it seems to me that it's a series of dawning realisation sin and sometimes stunning developments certainly the whole idea that there if there is a neuron and a contra component was with something that most people didn't expect when you started the investigation what were you looking for what did you expect and how did it on unveil for you so it did it in stages so we were divided up into different areas to explore one of the first areas that I explored and together with another prosecutor out of New York was the angle of private people private organization raising money from wealthy contributors to provide armaments to the contras in Nicaragua so my initial Focus was not on the array
00:14:03what side of the transactions but instead on the countryside and so we began a subpoena documents interviewing Witnesses and so forth to understand what the involvement of these private private citizens I had been in raising money for the contras in to see whether the activities violated the Federal Criminal Law and so my colleague David zornow and I really just the two of us sort of explored that path and were able to actually secure to guilty pleas is within the first few months of the investigation that had to do with the misuse of a tax exempt organization a so-called 501 c 3 organization that had been raising money for the contras from wealthy contributors and people were going to meetings that included on occasion Oliver North and North would tell these were
00:15:03the contributors what it cost to buy a certain pieces of military equipment those rich people would then provide the money through this 501 c 3 organization and Wella and bat needless to say I think is not an appropriate use of a tax exempt organization to raise money to buy ornaments for a foreign revolutionary Force
00:15:40American Scandal is sponsored by ZipRecruiter I'm recording this on New Year's Eve in the very last hours of 2018 it's been a hell of a year for me I appreciate one we launched this podcast for instance but there's no doubt that it's also been a tumultuous year with more than its share of shocking headlines political disgrace isn't while Scandal so it's good to look back and take stock of what you can be thankful for this might sound cam recording I am right in the middle of an ad but something I am legitimately grateful for is ZipRecruiter they have been a dedicated supporter of this show since the very beginning helping keep this Scandal machine going every week so I'm happy to pitch for them here's what you need to know if you are hiring the smartest thing you can do is go to ziprecruiter.com a s ZipRecruiter has developed powerful matching technology that scans thousands of resumes identifying the right people for your job and then invites them to apply they come to you making your hiring search for
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00:16:54Willis talk about Oliver North perhaps one of the most well-known figures of of this incident that he was one of the ones who you took to trial military aid to the National Security Council he was found guilty on three counts including obstruction of justice and destroying documents those convictions were overturned though I adjudge saying that the witnesses against North may have been tainted by his hearing that was widely televised what did you make of that well we were very disappointed with how did court of appeals decision we think and we thought at the time and I think still think it was the wrong decision and it was a political decision and I don't say that lightly about an appellate court decision we had done everything possible to screen ourselves from any exposure to the immune eyes testimony both Lieutenant Colonel North
00:17:55and Admiral Poindexter had provided testimony to the Congress under Grant of immunity which means that none of their testimony can be used against them and no leads that came indirectly from their testimony could be used against them so the members of the staff were on staff at the time did literally everything they possibly could to Shield themselves from the immunized testimony for me for example I was riding the Metro the subway in the mornings and people had newspapers with headlines about the testimony and I took off my glasses so I couldn't see them I would I would be in in an elevator and I would hear my people start to talk about the what's testimony or Poindexter testimony night asking to be quiet but I couldn't be exposed to it I was awkward to do it but I knew that we had to do it in order to preserve the purity of the investigation and to do everything we possibly could to
00:18:55avoid exposure to the immunize testimony in the end of court of appeals said well that's not good enough because the witnesses you called during the case didn't Shield themselves from human eyes testimony they watched it and therefore it became part of what was in their heads and there's no way they can surgically remove what they learn from immunize testimony from pre-existing memories that they had we think that was the wrong standard we think that Witnesses are only able there only in legal language competent to testify about what they saw what they heard what they did and that that wasn't going to be affected by what they heard somebody else say and so our view was that we did everything we possibly could the trial judge very distinguished trial judge judge Kara Hartzell agreed with us and thought that we had taken
00:19:55all necessary precautions and that therefore Lieutenant Colonel North I had received a fair trial I think that was the right decision I think the court of appeals decision reversing the convictions was very much the wrong decision this leads into the question of media involvement in an investigation like this certainly that's a direct and clear example of how the media interest in this actually interfere perhaps in judicial process of today we have another special counsel Robert Mueller who's investigating the alleged Russian interference into our elections and he is famously tight-lipped I don't believe that judge Walsh was as as as controlled as mother is now and actually you had a relationship with the media can can you describe how your team interacted with journalists and and the public sure I was not I was you know was a staff lawyer at the time I became a supervisor
00:20:55in the office but I was not one of the senior members of the office and I had no direct contact with the media media contacts were really handled almost exclusively by Joe Walsh himself we had a press officer very good very capable press officer and he managed the office is relationship with the media I know the judge Walsh met with spoke with reporters on an occasional the continuing basis and I think fairly tightly controlled circumstances but you're quite right the approach was different and less restrictive unless button down then Bob Mueller's approach judge Walsh and another senior people in the office. It was the right thing to do to engage with a media to help explain what we were doing to put it in context and judge Walsh even gave a couple of speeches public speeches that didn't touch on the
00:21:55facts of the investigation but stressed the importance of adhering to the rule of law on so forth and that's very different from Bob Mueller Bob Mueller to my knowledge is Matt Knight not made any public appearances they said she's not made any public speeches and he's not met with any member of the media was a spectacle certainly you know captivated the country it was a scandal of grand proportions and many people were very up in arms about it on all sides
00:22:25through the lens of history or maybe just a fog of History the general impression is not much really happened though the investigation was went on for a long time spent millions of dollars you were there in the middle of it so you know more than most I'm just left wondering if you felt in the moment you are achieving something and now years later is that a cheap mint real it's a good question and it's a fair question but I think my unhesitating answer is yes I think we did achieve something I think that when you have allegations that appear to go to the core of our political system that is in this case running a secret foreign policy in violation of the specific requirements that Congress has established running it out of the White House and having
00:23:25senior age to the president lying to Congress about it using tax-exempt organizations when they shouldn't receiving gratuities to build a security fence up for themselves. That's the sort of public corruption that needs to be pursued I think we've reached a sad State of Affairs if people are inclined as a wave that off and say whenever that's really not all that important and it's important to remember that at the beginning of the investigation people thought that there was a real possibility that President Reagan would be impeached because our policy are public policy towards Iran was the cast them as the ultimate International balance and not to have anything whatsoever to do with them and instead it turns out that for a specific purposes pursuing a specific agenda we were we were
00:24:25selling arms to them and so that was a real violation of what was announced United States policy but also was a deception that have been perpetrated on the American people and then when you pair that with what some of the money was used for that the proceeds were diverted to support the contras in Nicaragua again in the face of specific Congressional prohibitions not to help them that's very serious stuff and there was some criticism that well yeah this is there was some serious stuff but it really is not the Crypt of the criminal law is too blunt and instrument to deal with those kinds of issues and there's something to be said for that but our job was to find out whether real crimes were committed and if so to pursue them aggressively indulgently I think we did that I was only there
00:25:25for two and a half years and as you mentioned the investigation as a whole went on for for many years thereafter colleagues of mine who stayed the course uncovered what they thought was a massive cover-up that is that a high-ranking people with defense department in the state department and elsewhere had been much more involved in the underlying transaction said that they had said and that they had misled the American people in an effect allowed North and Poindexter to be the scapegoats so yes you can make arguments that it may have gone on too long that too much money may have been spent but sometimes the reason something goes on so long and that so much money is spent is that people who you would hope would tell the truth when they're interviewed and would produce all the documents that have been subpoenaed don't do that and you can't reward law breaking of that kind by prematurely saying well okay
00:26:25I've been going at this 18 months now or two years now and we're going to close things down the worst thing you can do really for the Integrity of an investigation is to put artificial time or budget limits on it cuz that'll guarantee that the people that you need information from will close down on you and say I can wait these people out there going to be gone in two months or 3 months or 6 months and so you can't really afford to send that message I think everyone would agree that this candle on Earth some very serious stuff as you just said but I'm wondering when did you realize the scope of it what was your personal feeling maybe perhaps that moment you go home at the end of the day and say
00:27:10well I wasn't expecting this
00:27:14well I mean I think that that we had moments of that really throughout the investigation starting with what you described at the top what triggered it the disclosures by then attorney-general nice of the diversion in late November in one of the things that we peel back as we went along was the pattern of deception that was perpetrated particularly on the Congress by high-ranking members of the administration particularly in the white house and we certainly didn't know the details of those we had to peel that back and as we went along and so it was hard to recreate the specifics of an investigation 20 years later but there were lots of surprises overtime a lots of things that we learned lots of new avenues to explore as we went along
00:28:11one thing that is particularly interesting to me is the cover-up itself the deception from the Reagan Administration in many ways it it seems organized and coordinated but as you read the story and you realize how many contradictions are were gone and missteps mistakes that it might have just been frantic and I wonder what your sense is of the administration's response to this impending threat legal political is your opinion of them that that this deception and we're not going to call you anything else was a well-organized strategy or just something they bungled into that really depends on what. Of time that you're talking about so a lot of the lies and deceptions that actually happened before the story of the diversion broke and in fact a specific crimes the northern Poindexter
00:29:08hot were charged with including the deception and lying to Congress really occurred before we even got on the scene but if you're talkin about some of the cover-up and deceptions that happened later you know I think it's hard to generalize about what people's motives were when that was most fully explored was after I left the office in October of nineteen eighty-nine really The Descent of continuing deception that was going on from the defense department from the state department from the White House and so forth that really came after the trials that I was involved in the the north trial in particular but we worked on really for the first 18 months or so was the investigation that culminated in the indictment of North and Poindexter and general Secord and Albert Hakim
00:30:05and it was only subsequent to that the full extent of the cover-up at the CIA at the state department at the defense department came to light in that was explored largely by by other lawyers we're talking now today the day of President George Herbert Walker Bush's funeral his legacy is being examined including his role in the Iran-Contra Affair he's probably best publicly known for pardoning several The Men Who were indicted including National Security advisor Bud MacFarlane and secretary defense Caspar Weinberger who was pardoned even before he was found guilty
00:30:45as a result of these pardons they the eventual independent council's final report on the Iran-Contra Affair noted that the criminal investigation of Bush was regrettably incomplete pardons have become news today as well they seem on face to be a an appeal to a the highest judicial Authority perhaps but in a political office like the presidents are they are they appropriate do they interfere with Justice well I think you have two different kinds of of Pardons the pardons that you're talking about that then President Bush granted to really the entire group of Iran Contra defendants both those who have been found guilty of problem of those who are guilty pleas I think were wrong I think they were rightly controversial but they were enlarged
00:31:45part of a response to what President Bush and his AIDS considered a worthy and Noble careers in government by people who looked at most charitably had done something wrong or regrettable but that shouldn't affect of their lives going forward and they had done enough Public Service in their time to Warrant Mercy been granted through the pardon power
00:32:16pardons that we are talking about these days are entirely different from that they are being waved around as possibilities to people who have not perform public service but who have been chronic and habitual lawbreaker largely to feather their own Financial nest and that they have been been pardons have been bandied about as possible ways to persuade people not to testify against high-ranking officials including the president that you can make an argument that using pardons in that fashion itself is a violation of criminal law it sounds like bribery but in any event you can certainly criticized President Bush for the pardons he granted but I think when you're talkin about what President Trump is talking about using Parton's for that's an entirely different
00:33:29Iran-Contra scandal and its investigation was preceded Forest by Watergate and followed by Whitewater we have another one now the Mueller investigation some critics will say the special counsel's like these are not the best way to investigate issues in any Administration or that they have a problem with scope creep they start in one place and end up far-field you were in the middle of one what do you think their efficacy is is there is this their role is this the best way to investigate an Administration I think it's some cases it's the only way to investigate Administration just think about whether it's even conceivable that the Department of Justice headed by Jeff sessions and now on a temporary basis by Matt Whitaker
00:34:16would have investigated the Russia angle potential collusion destruction of Justice the whole range of issues that Mueller and his staff have investigated I can't even imagine an investigation nearly as careful as thorough and it's appropriate as what we're seeing there is absolutely no political will to do that if potentially implicates the president and other people around him so I think this is one of those cases where there is no alternative if the public is concerned about getting to the bottom facts and finding out whether high-ranking government officials broke the law and I think you can make an argument that and some circumstances a special counsel or independent counsel
00:35:15art appropriate so my own view is that the independent counsel law under which judge Walsh and Ken Starr were appointed in which expired in 1999 that the bar was too low that is that the legal trigger for an independent counsel investigation was too easy to trip and as a result there were lots of independent counsel investigations particularly in the 1990s there were some a couple of the 70s that were more of the 80s and then there was a flood of them in the 90s so I think you can fairly argue that the trigger was too low I think there's an argument that you can make that the special counsel Provisions which are now part of the justice department regulations in the special counsel's now report within the Department of Justice at the bar may be too high and then it takes too much to drink to trigger a special counsel investigation so I'm not sure that there is a perfect vehicle to
00:36:15navigate allegations of corruption or malfeasance at the highest levels of government I do know that without a special counsel now there is no chance that we would have learned as much as we have and that is many people will a web would have been shown to have violated the law as have already been shown and we're we're not done with the story here as always see whether it's under the independent counsel statute or under the special counsel regulations there is a whole lot that's determined by who was selected to head the investigation do they have the right background do they have the right experience can they be counted on to surround themselves with the best people truly the best people those who have the qualifications the temperament the judgment to do an appropriate investigation I think the verdict for Bob Mueller is two thumbs up with respect to some of the other and some the independent
00:37:15so who are appointed in the 90s of the verdict shouldn't be as positive one other controversial wrinkle of the independent counsel law was that at the end of every investigation a detailed report would need to be filed and you've referred to wash his final report we were talking a few minutes ago I think I'm in a minority here but I think can investigations of the importance of Iran Contra and the importance of the Russia investigation that it ought to be an automatic requirement that a report be filed so that the public is fully aware of exactly what the investigators found during the course of their investigation the concern in that case as well they may talk about the conduct of people that was found not to be in violation of the law or at least not so much in violation of the law that the prosecutors thought they could convictos people Beyond A Reasonable Doubt and that's why they didn't charge them so there is some
00:38:15people argue it's unfair to talk about the conduct of people who weren't invited and I understand that argument but I think that's outweighed by the importance of fully informing the public on issues of enormous public importance and so I would be a favor again I think I'm in the minority in this regard I would be in favor of requiring that a report be a detailed report be developed produced and made public the pursuit of law on the pursuit of justice is this really very process-driven the separation of powers in our government are are artificial systemic architectures to try and preserve not not that you know rulemaking or following of the rules but really public integrity
00:39:02this candle all scandals infringe on our trust of the Integrity of government a lot of that has to do with the with public opinion the rules of law are the rules of Justice League the way investigations are reported may not matter as much as the end result what the American public walks away with I wonder what your lesson from the Iran-Contra was in terms of how the American public can pay more attention to law to the rigidity of process and its importance in reflecting upon our political integrity and then how much public opinion might dilute or distract from that
00:39:52well I think that it's it's critically important that I've tried to suggest that serious allegations of violations of criminal law be explored fully professionally and without favor and I think the independent counsel law was designed to do that it fell out of favor because of some of the excess does I think particularly those by Ken Starr and but I do think it's critically important that serious allegations be investigated seriously and you have to hope that the public will be convinced that the time and the expense that's necessary to do that is worth it and that the Legacy will be a belief and widespread belief on the part of the public that yes this was worth doing this was not a waste of time and resources this was not a distraction
00:40:52from the everyday workings of government this was important and necessary to uphold the Integrity of public life I think what's changed in the last 30 years is the influence that certain media have over a certain psych segment of public opinion and I'm speaking specifically about the really unbelievable and unethical public campaign that's been waged against Bob Mueller engaged in by people who knew that he was scrupulous about not talking to the Press not sharing what he was doing and so they were dealing with somebody who had tied his own hands behind his back in a way because you believe that that's not the right way to do the work
00:41:45and yet you know we have seen that The public's opinion of Mueller and his staff for some substantial. Of time was on the decline because of the sustained tax on him I think that's changing thankfully but for a while it looked like the attackers of his investigation we're gaining the upper hand and it was extraordinary really frustrating for I think a lot of people including me to see that happen when I know Bob Mueller and I know you know kind of person of Integrity if it is to see him accused of absolutely outrageous things people in Bolton by the the knowledge that he wouldn't fight back but he wouldn't respond and yet that had an enormous influence on public opinion I think that's really unfortunate I think the media has become so segmented and so
00:42:45particularly on the right-wing that there is an influence on the opinion of a very substantial portion of the population that doesn't seem to be affected by the facts but is instead is affected by Propaganda and that's something we didn't have 30 years ago Michael Bromwich thank you very much for joining me and talk about your role in the Iran-Contra investigations thank you thank you daycare
00:43:14that was my conversation with Michael Bromwich he served as the associate counsel in the office of the independent counsel for the Iran-Contra investigation today he's managing principal of the Bromwich group strategic consulting firm I hope you enjoyed this episode of American Scandal it's our last episode of the series but the very first 2018 so happy New Year we're going to take a short 2 week break to plan research and write more series for the year starting with our next topic the Exxon Valdez oil spill in the meantime catch up on our other series we started with a Balco steroids Scandal and it's near Barry Bonds and Marion Jones next attack of corruption in Albany beginning with Eliot Spitzer's fail crusade to clean up New York's capital is governor and falling in disgrace himself and if you like history with or without the skin you may enjoy my other podcast American history tellers me of eight full seasons covering topics from the Revolutionary War II the Space Race just search for American history tellers you'll find it
00:44:13from wandering this is American scan thank you for listening download And subscribe to American Scandal on Apple podcast Spotify Stitcher laundry.com or wherever you're listening to this right now and if you're listening on a smartphone time for swipe over the cover art of this podcast you'll find the episode notes putting some details you may have missed you also find some offers from our sponsors by supporting our sponsors you help us off this show to you for free if you like this show one of the very best ways you can show your appreciation is to give us a 5-star rating and leave a review I always love to know your thoughts and detail reviews are one of the best ways for others to find the show tell your friends and family and show them how to subscribe American Scandal is hosted edited sound design and executive-produced By Me Lindsey Graham for an Airship this episode was produced by a deal on the Run concert series was written by Stephen Walters edited by Andrew Stelzer. Consultant was Malcolm burn executive producers are Stephanie Jen's Marshall Louis and Hernan Lopez for wondering

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