ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Who’s up, who’s down? The drama of our lives is narrated by our perception of where we stand. Most of our energy, money and time goes into grooming ourselves into the status role where we believe we belong.

English
United States

TRANSCRIPT

00:00:00It's a simple question really but i think it helps us understand so much of the world around us The question who eats first whether you're a wild animal a b or a human status world's matter hey it's seth and this is a kimbo And now a word from
00:00:29zipper cooter are presenting sponsor when it comes to hiring we could learn a lot from vikings Hi i'm ian siegal and i'm the ceo and co founder of zip recruiter The smartest way to higher being an entrepreneur and owning a business has been a dream of mine since
00:00:44i was a kid and i've learned a lot of interesting things while turning that dream into a reality like why talking like a viking khun Be helpful when you're hiring more on that later i found it zipper critter because i knew there was a simpler more efficient and
00:00:57more effective way for people to find jobs that they love and for businesses to find fantastic employees And if you're hiring now you contrive zip recruiter for free at zipper critter dot com slash seth Eighty percent of employers who post on zipper critter get a quality candidate through
00:01:11the site and just one day so try it for free at zipper critter dot com slash set See you later in the show Baxter hates truman baxter's my dog great dog from the shelter He was about sixty pounds He gets along with all the other dogs except for
00:01:30treatment Truman's the wonderful german shepherd who lives across the street proud legal few years older than baxter And they hate each other And the reason i think is it's not clear who gets deed first Who's the alfa Who's in charge When i was in fifth grade i ran
00:01:52for president of the safety patrol and i lost And the ninth and tenth and eleventh and twelfth grade wait I ran for student council president and i lost my senior year I had the best signs I put myself out there and i lost I got to college and
00:02:11i ran for dorm rep unopposed and i lost I don't like the question is why i kept losing I kept losing because people weren't voting for me They didn't see me for how i saw myself The interesting question is why did i keep running So let's begin with
00:02:31business Current gold Bauer has made a famous mim on the internet about your business card You see a business card cheap strathmore stock sixty pounds holds a crease and the best riff in the movie american psycho is about some insecure people comparing of all things their business cards
00:02:58Look at that subtle off white coloring The tasteful thickness of it Oh my god it even has a watermark Why do business cards even matter How can this little piece of paper somehow be construed as a representation of who we are And why do we care Well if
00:03:19we think about the godfather we can start to understand how status rolls are portrayed in the media and how we internalize them and believe them In the opening scene of the godfather bonus sarah the undertaker the lowest status person in the community ninety six pounds balding wearing a
00:03:42nondescript suit the undertaker comes to see the godfather The day he chooses is the day of the godfather's daughter's wedding Sicilian tradition according to the movie is that the godfather cannot refuse a favor asked of him on this special day So in this moment the godfather is vulnerable
00:04:07He's vulnerable because his status can be questioned The undertaker comes to him and asks him to perform violence Handsome men who have hurt his daughter the godfather marlon brando turns to bonus Aaron says I can do He cannot do it of course because if he did it would
00:04:31make him nothing but a hired thug bonus Sarah raises the stakes he offers to pay the godfather which of course is an insult It turns him from a mere hired thug to a hired thug who's just doing it for the money And in that moment where the status
00:04:50rolls of the high status status seeking godfather is threatened by the low status undertaker we see writ large something that's been going on for millennia We understand the relationship between baxter and truman because it turns out that throughout the animal kingdom including and especially humans status rules matter
00:05:19Just about everything you will ever see in a movie theater or a theater or read about in a novel is about status rolls The movie trading places is about status rolls the sitcoms of the sixties the comedies of the eighties the thrillers that we see today They're all
00:05:38about who's moving up who's moving down But of course it happens in real life And of course it doesn't have anything to do with money Think about that meditation weekend nothing but spirituality except some people At the weekend our friends with the instructor so they have a little
00:06:01bit more status and of course the guest instructors wearing a special outfit and sitting in a special chair So he has a little bit more status Tribe's thes informal groups of people that we are all part of demand status rules because it's a form of governance who's up
00:06:24and who's down And capitalism requires status roles because it gets people toe work even after they have enough that the ability to be able to say i might not have everything but i have more than you is buried deep within our culture that what we have done is
00:06:47built layer after layer after layer in commerce and in community Based around our roles are status our business card our standing in the community those labaton shoes that she's wearing that birkin bag who's sitting at the cool table at lunch who's the head of the football team or
00:07:11the cheer leading squad Or the student council that we repeatedly look at other people and decide where we stand and what marketers have done is run with this What politicians have done is run with this because we understand that deep down human beings care about it Keith johnstone
00:07:36in his brilliant book in pro spends the first third of the book talking about how theater is nothing but this exchange of status rolls Professional wrestling is nothing but an exchange of status Rolls nursery school His status rolls Who gets to play with the blocks Is it the
00:07:58kid who's the biggest How do we treat somebody who's wearing it Cute outfit versus one who isn't How are we looking and juxtaposing who has status and who doesn't and which status matters If you had a chance to watch the videos of donald trump shaking hands with various
00:08:20world leaders what you see is an ancient ritual a battle for supremacy in something as absurd as a handshake And when a policeman pulls you over for speeding in that exchange at the window of your car will be a debate about status rolls Are you going to play
00:08:43low and let the policemen play high Are you going to take umbrage and say don't you know who i am and try to get the policeman to play low We're not on the savannah anymore We're not lions or hippos deciding who gets the first and who just gets
00:09:03the scraps And yet certainly seems that way for old friends who haven't seen each other in a while Get together over lunch First one beaming pulls out his iphone x brand new the most profitable consumer product ever created The iphone hasn't offered much new in the way of
00:09:25functionality in five years but people keep buying a new one and he knows why Preying on the table danger lee He's moved up in status His friend to the left pulls out his pixel phone from google Android based a way of showing he's smarter and his friend he
00:09:46bought something with more power Not to be outdone the third friend pulls out a waterproof flip phone Twelve years old Doesn't matter He's all about the functionality The fourth friend though the status of no status doesn't have a phone at all Doesn't need a phone His admin will
00:10:06take care of it And around the circle we go how do we keep it running in a society as rich is ours with so many resource is available how do we keep it going How do we keep making people upset and frustrated when they don't have enough status
00:10:28How do we get people to work all night even though they have enough toe earn more status How do we create life and death situations How do we push people to go into debt for status Well it turns out that shame shame that basic human emotion One of
00:10:49the top six emotions that people experience You've got happiness You've got fear And then right up there is shame Shame is the status enforcer that what we have done his orchestrate a culture where if you are surrounded by people with more status than you or if you believe
00:11:12that they have more status than you we've instructed you to feel shame And we hate shame Shames the deal Killer shame undermines all of the things that we seek Tohave So to avoid shame we make bad decisions We make decisions that honor marketers or those that would manipulate
00:11:36us as opposed to doing what's best for us and the people around us and it's important that we learn to see it there once you see it Once you see how this juxtaposition between status and shame it's used over and over again You can see how you're being
00:11:57manipulated manipulated to vote manipulated toe work manipulated purchase That status all by itself has no real value outside of a new arena where someone's trying to take something from us that the rest of the time it's in our head It's the story we are telling ourselves about are
00:12:22worth about our business card about how we're being judged as always This insight from the good doctor dr seuss in here it'll the turtle turtles More turtles he bellowed and braid and the turtles way down in the pond were afraid They trembled They shook but they came They
00:12:45obeyed from all over the pond They came swimming by dozens whole families of turtles with uncles and cousins and all of them stepped on the head of poor mac One after another they climbed up the stack What marketers have learned is that the shame engine the tribal shame
00:13:09engine I won't stop working All they have to do is highlighted Press on it gently sometimes with an anvil but often gently and remind us that we don't want to be a tte the bottom of the pile They remind us with images and offers and sales that if
00:13:32we don't respond we're gonna have to deal with shame And it's all in our head Consider the market for luxury goods Last year it was more than thirty billion dollars spent worldwide to buy things that were more expensive and probably a little bit nicer than we needed luggage
00:13:53or perfume or shoes The list goes on and on It turns out the industry was invented by one man named kolbert in france He worked for the king The french had a problem which is they weren't doing very well as imperialists Spain and england were colonising other countries
00:14:13building markets gaining raw materials better than the french work So colbert put in place a ratchet a way to raise more taxes for the king and to build export market And the idea was that they would bless certain industries give them protections and support and thus france became
00:14:35the leader in things like lace and leather goods They figured out how to make things better than they needed to be so that people who wanted to demonstrate their status could spend extra money and gain a symbol that would allow them to do this And hundreds of years
00:14:55later it continues the race for more status not more than anyone in the world just more than people in your circle continues And the digital world makes it even easier to play the game that instagram and snap and facebook give each one of us a stage a stage
00:15:18to prance on and show our status toe humble Brag our way into showing that we're just a little bit better than the people around us or if we choose a place to go to feel badly about ourselves to experience shame because somebody else is moving up while we
00:15:35are moving down these networks And they're busy calling people around your friends even though you don't even know them have figured out how to digitize Howto enumerated had a rank how to create a game Where were all the players But we're not the customers We are the product
00:15:57where the product so that someone else the advertiser can pay money to reach us and the thing that they're extracting from us is our attention We give our attention in exchange for avoiding the shame a feeling like we're falling behind and status So like the godfather like the
00:16:18person at the meditation retreat like the person whose figure out what shoes to wear to today's meeting or wondering whether our business card is good enough or not We're all captive on this merry go round to carousel around and around and around playing a status game where some
00:16:38people are using status to extract behavior from us and other people are busy trying to gain status so in their mind they can win So what to do about it Well two things First of all if you're trying to do something important something beneficial something good If you're
00:17:00trying to get someone to adopt a different way of being i think it's worth paying attention to the status of the people you are working with and the changes that you are offering Because when your change promises to move someone status up they're way more likely to listen
00:17:19to you that status rolls inform every decision that we make And if you're trying to sell an idea to someone you need to be aware of that But what if you're on the other end of the equation What if there's a long history of status worlds being used
00:17:35against you Well one more time we go back to the good doctor dr seuss that the end of your dole eternal And today the great urinal that marvelous He his king of the mud That's all he can see And the turtles of course All the turtles are free
00:17:54as turtles And maybe all creatures should be Interesting things happen when we start tweaking status rolls Union square hospitality group is a chain of restaurants high end restaurants in new york city A couple of years ago they decided to do away with tipping and instead at a service
00:18:17charge to every bill They did this for a few reasons One reason is that by law the people in the back of the house the people who cook the food aren't allowed to take a share of the tips So what was happening was there was a huge gulf
00:18:33between how much some people were paid and how much others were paid By adding a service charge they were able to treat everyone on the team as a professional and what they discovered was it It shifted and shifted the posture of the people in the back who were
00:18:51paid more fairly But it also changed the way the service staff acted instead of it being a sexist or racist lottery where how much you're going to get it The end of a meal was based on the whim of a diner and how he or she was dealing
00:19:10with their own narrative about status The people in the front of the house were able to act like every other professional in the field getting paid fairly for what they did and doing their best possible work It's interesting to note that some of the customers are uncomfortable with
00:19:28this that having tipping be taken away from their discretion doesn't change the service experience But if very much changes the status experience that if in our head we believe that our status role is impacted by our ability to leave or not leave a tip by what our compatriots
00:19:52see us do when we leave a tip then part of the experience of going to a restaurant has shifted It's fascinating to watch an experiment like this unfold because each of the parties involved old is shifting their experience of status often for the better After the break i'll
00:20:12be back with answers to the questions you submitted from the last episode If you have a question about this one please visit a kimbo dot link and press the appropriate button Hi again This is ian siegal ceo and co founder of zip recruiter The smartest way to hire
00:20:31So here's a quick interview tip a lot of people When they're interviewing a candidate they try to make a friend And the reality is that's not a great way to figure out what it's going to be like to work with someone because everybody's on their best behavior That's
00:20:42why my number one interview tip is to talk like a viking And what do i mean by that I mean be direct If they say something that you like you tell them that you like what they just said and you see how they react If they say something
00:20:53you don't like you also tell them that and you see how they react when you give them feedback that some would consider to be tough to take That's one of the most important reads You can get an interview and it's the way to find out what it's like
00:21:05to really work with somebody That's the importance of being direct I hope you found it helpful Here's something else that may be helpful if you're hiring you contrive zip recruiter for free today Sip recruiters helped businesses of all sizes and across all industries hire great people In fact
00:21:20eighty percent of employers who used ip recruiter find a quality candidate through the site in just one day Just go to zip recruiter dot com slash seth that zipper critter dot com slash seth thanks for listening and see you on the next episode he says It's mighty i
00:21:33said my name's kyle gray And first of all i love the show And that completes my question I said this is paul from huntington beach california i said this's caitlin tyson Warm greetings from cure so basa car chef and greetings from lithuania Tons of questions came in last
00:21:53time I was really gratified at all of the wonderful feedback you shared with me about the first episode of this podcast Thank you Some tips for q and a going forward We're never going to be able to get all the questions that you're submitting and i apologize for
00:22:09that The questions that i'll choose will tend to be specific about the previous episode They'll tend to be general in that lots of people want to hear the answer and they'll tend to be cogent compressed urgent so that they don't ramble Here's our first question My question is
00:22:32when you're doing your work your c free back How do you use this feedback but positive and negative feedback in a manner that is constructive and makes your work better rather than reduce its quality Thank you The essence of the thinking behind one thousand true fans is that
00:22:52there are a few people who matter a lot more to the creator than other people And that's the secret of processing feedback When a critic doesn't get the joke when they don't understand you when it's not what they need or want Well then there's nothing to be done
00:23:10about that Let it go Move on On the other hand when you hear from the core constituents from the people that you're counting on you need to listen very carefully to that feedback Treat different people differently being on your own and indeed building something that will spark change
00:23:32in a community if you want to still have a balanced life I'm talking about raising kids and also making sure that you get at least a couple of hours sleep today How do you manage to build something slowly but then at the same time make money to survive
00:23:53This was the most common question that came in and it's based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what i'm talking about when i say that the grand opening is a mistake grand openings are expo pensive They're fraught with risk They're foolhardy The other approach the smallest possible market The
00:24:14idea that we can find our people and delight them while ignoring everyone else That's not slow That's smart And so if you're going to make something you have to be prepared for the fact that it's not going to work right away that it might never work If you
00:24:33want to make something you have to accept the fact that it's different than having a day job Bank tellers get paid when they show up at work every day Creators don't so i don't have a short cut for howto live the life you deserve Howto have a steady
00:24:50income while doing this work That's beyond the scope of what we're talking about today But what i am arguing for is that the most efficient smartest productive way to do your work is not to wish and hope for the fairy of success to come and say everyone knows
00:25:11your idea because she's not coming that the alternative is to be specific urgent and important and to make a difference for a few people because then they'll spread the word and then you can do the work you wanted to do all along sometimes feels like you saying that
00:25:32it doesn't matter the quality it first just get out there with the award the world that you believe in But then what if people give you their attention at first and then you create this not perfect you know ugly duckling And then oh people seed and they never
00:25:50take you seriously again There's a big difference between just ship it and merely ship it And i have never argued that people should just ship stuff out Whatever it is just take a flyer brought into the world Merely do it though merely is something else Merely do It
00:26:12means with focus and with care You cannot know what your audience actually wants until you engage with them So my argument is yes Build it with care Build it as if everything depended on it But no don't hold it back in fear Don't hold it back wondering and
00:26:34waiting You must engage with the audience Does that mean that's some people you engage with who don't get the joke will write you off in the future Probably But if you want to go listen to billie joe lt's early demos All a man who's broken can appreciate the
00:26:59pain I feel only man in this world is always really gonna go look at jerry seinfeld's early stand up Go find anybody whose work you care about and notice that at the beginning it wasn't that good So you're saying to worry about organic traffic before anything else I
00:27:22see a lot of creators I feel like i should be getting traction faster than they are When is advertising the answer If ever not all ideas spread organically and there's nothing wrong with advertising anticipated personal relevant advertising that reaches people who want to get it can be really
00:27:43effective My argument is that it never makes sense to buy a super bowl ad ever that you're not trying to each everyone But if you know specifically who you seek to reach by all means by the et two Good questions about kevin kelly's notion of one thousand true
00:28:04fans How might you quickly and cheaply demonstrate the power of a thousand true fans to someone who's a nonbeliever when going through when building up our one thousand true fans how do we know who to target and what they aim for So let me take another minute to
00:28:21go through the math here True fans aren't merely fans There are people who show up with time and money acting as patrons insisting that the work continue One thousand true fans are the corps of how ideas spread One thousand True fans can pay for a small team of
00:28:46people to create magical work The math is pretty simple If you've got one thousand people that will come to your rock concert weekend to spend time with the band and pay a thousand dollars each That's a million dollars When you've got one thousand true fans who are willing
00:29:07to subscribe to your work paying every month you could make a living on that Can you support a giant corporation Of course not But you can support an artist a human somebody who wants to make a difference So how to choose these people Because the people who choose
00:29:26you they might be fans But true fans are a little different True fans understand that they're actually engaged in the process of creation True fans define their future through the work that the artist is doing They're grateful for it and they are willing to participate So part of
00:29:49the discernment that we need as creators is to tell the difference between someone who will take our time and someone who will amplify our time No that's it for this round of questions one more time Thank you so much for being part of this If you want to
00:30:11see previous episodes if you want to see this show notes which are sort of cool or if you want to ask a question for next time head on over to a kimbo dot link That's a k i mbia done l i n k until next time Keep making
00:30:30a ruckus Thanks People are talking about the marketing seminar I was completely blown away is incredibly comprehensive crazy crazy crazy useful It is easily worth five times what i paid for The cost of the content in the class was awesome What i learned i actually could apply immediately
00:30:54and get results I thought it's going to be kind of automated course and the big shock is the cohort I have never felt more supported in any online program i've done and i actually changed The way you talk about the project changed the way we promote it on
00:31:10our web site I use it in other projects away to really evaluate it into apply it that i have never experienced anywhere else It's so much more than just a marketing seminar Find out more at the marketing seminar dot com

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