Full Transcript for This Is Us

And I think some of it, yes, is the things where we talk about with modern views that we'll get into about Consent and things like that. 00:02:18.407 --> 00:02:26.977 But part of it is, I think some of those books appeal to young girls because it's the swept away. 00:02:26.997 --> 00:02:28.658 It's the Disney princess. 00:02:28.718 --> 00:02:33.123 My prince comes and I'm going to be safe and I'm going to be cared for. 00:02:33.443 --> 00:02:34.806 And this is love. 00:02:34.846 --> 00:02:41.854 And as I became older and had relationships and matured and saw that, it seemed real. 00:02:42.177 --> 00:02:44.260 I wasn't waiting for my prince to come anymore. 00:02:44.360 --> 00:02:54.798 So I wasn't necessarily, you know, those books weren't as interesting to me once I had had an opportunity to see what real romance or real life was like. 00:02:55.538 --> 00:02:58.143 Not to say that they don't play a role in terms of escapism. 00:02:58.204 --> 00:03:01.187 If I was looking for escapism, that would be a great place to go, right? 00:03:01.228 --> 00:03:03.731 It doesn't have to be realistic to be enjoyable. 00:03:04.653 --> 00:03:07.078 See, and I see it as like a lack of agency, right? 00:03:07.679 --> 00:03:09.722 I don't want to wait around for someone to save me. 00:03:10.530 --> 00:03:23.110 I think that's why they have their role in like, if that's something that appeals to you either for your real life or for just a sense of escapism, they have their role there. 00:03:23.610 --> 00:03:28.078 Just like, you know, there are plenty of people who hate smutty books. 00:03:28.497 --> 00:03:29.560 They don't want to read the smut. 00:03:29.620 --> 00:03:31.943 That's not something that interests them. 00:03:32.564 --> 00:03:37.573 And so, you know, I think it's more just a matter of personal preference. 00:03:38.112 --> 00:03:44.497 I personally, Don't find the swept away thing interesting anymore, but it doesn't mean that it's a bad thing. 00:03:44.617 --> 00:03:45.979 It just means it's not my thing. 00:03:46.620 --> 00:03:48.342 Yeah, we read kind of different books. 00:03:49.364 --> 00:03:49.584 Right. 00:03:49.644 --> 00:03:56.933 But I mean, like, yeah, I mean, I think there are those people who will say, yeah, I love the Fifty Shades, but hate the swept away Bodice Rippers. 00:03:57.395 --> 00:03:59.957 I find those heroines annoying in both books. 00:04:00.538 --> 00:04:04.144 I'm like, you're a dummy, you know, like you're a fool. 00:04:04.623 --> 00:04:08.650 Grow up and take some responsibility for your actions. 00:04:09.026 --> 00:04:12.390 especially in the very traditional submissives. 00:04:12.951 --> 00:04:14.253 He's a billionaire boss. 00:04:14.313 --> 00:04:16.757 She's a 20-year-old down on her luck, things like that. 00:04:17.399 --> 00:04:22.225 No matter the setting, I'm uninterested in the stupid young girl. 00:04:22.507 --> 00:04:25.951 What I perceive, what to me seems like a stupid young girl. 00:04:25.992 --> 00:04:35.165

I'm not saying that she's stupid, but when I look at that, I go, you're a dummy and I'm not interested in what happens to your story because I think that your choices are poor and that's why you're in this position. 00:04:35.687 --> 00:04:38.706 But again, that's not saying that that's a- bad thing. 00:04:38.747 --> 00:04:44.834 That's just, you know, I read reviews all the time on Goodreads where people are like, I hated the main character. 00:04:44.915 --> 00:04:45.956 She was so annoying. 00:04:46.036 --> 00:04:47.658 She was the cause of all of her problems. 00:04:47.697 --> 00:04:50.060 And I thought, I loved that main character. 00:04:50.161 --> 00:04:51.002 She was spunky. 00:04:51.021 --> 00:04:52.124 She was understandable. 00:04:52.204 --> 00:04:53.925 I could see why she made those bad choices. 00:04:54.427 --> 00:04:57.550 It's just a matter of, you know, personal preference and perspective. 00:04:58.230 --> 00:04:58.672 I don't know. 00:04:58.692 --> 00:05:06.442 Do you think it is possible to have better conflict from the hero and heroine, the main characters? 00:05:06.850 --> 00:05:08.091 and still have it be a romance. 00:05:08.170 --> 00:05:20.204 I mean, does it have to be a thing of romance where they are so fucking stupid where the conflict is either just not there or it's just juvenile and avoidable and not make it like a chick lit drama. 00:05:20.225 --> 00:05:21.225 You know what I mean? 00:05:21.987 --> 00:05:24.810 Still fit the parameters of romance. 00:05:25.630 --> 00:05:36.735 I don't know where you say where it's not like where they make more, the kind of heroine that you like, you're saying that you've, what is it that you need it to be more equal that you need it to be like less of a power imbalance? 00:05:37.617 --> 00:05:37.877 Yes. 00:05:37.916 --> 00:05:38.899 What do you mean by that? 00:05:39.720 --> 00:05:47.470 Well, I mean, you know, like I said, for example, the tropes that are very much like he's the 27 year old billionaire, which like, where are those guys? 00:05:47.511 --> 00:05:49.093 They don't, that doesn't exist, but okay. 00:05:49.132 --> 00:05:58.987 So we're in fantasy land where there are tons of eligible 27 year old unmarried, just waiting to be wonderful, you know, men out there. 00:05:59.666 --> 00:06:01.250 And none of them are contemporaries. 00:06:01.665 --> 00:06:08.232 None of them are their contemporaries, these smart businesswomen or the women who, God forbid, are even richer than them. 00:06:08.312 --> 00:06:09.793 They're never attracted to them. 00:06:09.973 --> 00:06:27.752 It's always the young girl who, despite having smart and coming out of a good school or having skills or things like that, is completely focused on her role as a romantic partner, right? 00:06:28.091 --> 00:06:29.173 So, I mean, I don't know. 00:06:29.192 --> 00:06:46.341 I mean, like, Is it a romance without your either external trope, the long lost girlfriend, the misunderstood conflict where I hear a conversation and instead of being like a normal person and being like, hey, what were you talking about in that conversation? 00:06:46.442 --> 00:06:52.490 I instead sweep up and run away and go to my mother's house and those types of things outside of those. 00:06:52.531 --> 00:06:53.872 I mean, I don't know. 00:06:53.913 --> 00:06:57.738 What would you create as a realistic conflict? 00:06:57.838 --> 00:06:59.581 Like I fell in love with him. 00:07:00.002 --> 00:07:03.706 but we have religious differences and can we work through them? 00:07:03.805 --> 00:07:07.408 He wants kids and I don't, you know, those types of conflicts. 00:07:08.129 --> 00:07:08.750 I guess not. 00:07:08.930 --> 00:07:12.514 I mean, I don't mean maybe that not the conflict has to fit, but it can be over the top. 00:07:12.574 --> 00:07:15.677 It can be fantasy, but it has to make sense. 00:07:15.898 --> 00:07:20.802 You know, it can be, it has to be, I mean, adults make stupid decisions, but they do them for reasons. 00:07:20.901 --> 00:07:34.012 You know, they don't do it because they're, you know, 12 years old mentally or emotionally and they might be jealous or angry and, you know, but it, You can see why, as an adult, they would make that mistake, even if it was a terrible thing 00:07:34.052 --> 00:07:34.492 to do. 00:07:34.512 --> 00:07:37.959 I mean, but show me a romance movie. 00:07:38.661 --> 00:07:50.584 Show me a big box office movie, not some little indie film, but show me a box office movie where the main thing is a romance between two 50-year-olds who are... 00:07:51.170 --> 00:07:52.992 having an adult type of relationship. 00:07:53.031 --> 00:07:54.173 They're not there as parents. 00:07:54.735 --> 00:07:58.098 They're not, you know, this is not the parent trap where you're putting them back together. 00:07:58.119 --> 00:08:01.463 This is not, oh, we're just platonic and we're going to kiss. 00:08:01.543 --> 00:08:02.504 It's a Hallmark movie. 00:08:02.564 --> 00:08:04.107 I mean, I don't see those. 00:08:04.547 --> 00:08:05.829 I think it's more than just books. 00:08:05.988 --> 00:08:07.290 Okay. 00:08:07.951 --> 00:08:10.173 But an adult type relationship sounds boring. 00:08:10.213 --> 00:08:14.240 And I want these 50 year olds to be having a romance novel relationship. 00:08:14.259 --> 00:08:14.399 Right. 00:08:14.620 --> 00:08:15.882 But I mean, I'm saying, do you see those? 00:08:16.257 --> 00:08:19.982 I was going to say, I think that's a much bigger thing when we're talking about romance and we're talking about sex. 00:08:20.062 --> 00:08:22.925 I mean, does Victoria's Secret have 50 year old models? 00:08:23.125 --> 00:08:23.946 No, they don't. 00:08:24.505 --> 00:08:36.017 Do you see 50 year old women or men doing anything in culture or media that presents them as romantic, attractive, that sexual, those types of things? 00:08:36.177 --> 00:08:36.437 No. 00:08:37.018 --> 00:08:49.087 That's why I was surprised when that show Lucifer, I mean, it's

over now, but I remember I was being surprised that almost the whole cast of actresses were at least in their forties, you know? 00:08:49.128 --> 00:08:53.072 And so I thought that was pretty cool that it wasn't a theme. 00:08:53.113 --> 00:09:01.323 It wasn't like these old ladies, you know, it was, they were having normal sexual, you know, storylines and it was just what it was. 00:09:01.364 --> 00:09:07.192 So I applaud that decision producers of Lucifer, but of a huge trope. 00:09:07.251 --> 00:09:10.035 Now a popular trope is the age gap. 00:09:10.956 --> 00:09:14.408 And I, First of all, it's hilarious with what some people think an age gap is. 00:09:14.528 --> 00:09:15.710 It's like less than 10 years. 00:09:15.789 --> 00:09:16.571 And they're like, ew. 00:09:16.610 --> 00:09:18.232 I mean, I think it. 00:09:18.293 --> 00:09:25.200 But then there's a ton of books where the man is 40 to even 50, somewhere in that range. 00:09:25.259 --> 00:09:27.662 And the girl is 18, 19, 20. 00:09:28.202 --> 00:09:28.423 Yes. 00:09:28.482 --> 00:09:29.903 There's a ton of those. 00:09:30.485 --> 00:09:32.567 And there are only a few. 00:09:32.586 --> 00:09:36.471 I've seen a few in reverse, but they're gross. 00:09:36.671 --> 00:09:39.313 And it kind of bothers me about myself that I find it... 00:09:39.745 --> 00:09:42.749 On the one hand, they're gross because the stories that I read were bad. 00:09:42.788 --> 00:09:49.777 But there's also an element of, ew, because she's the older one and he's like 18. 00:09:49.836 --> 00:09:51.078 And I'm like, okay, that's too young. 00:09:51.099 --> 00:09:53.120 I would disagree with that. 00:09:53.682 --> 00:09:55.303 In real life, sure. 00:09:55.923 --> 00:10:00.850 But what about the 40-year-old woman who just wants the 18-year-old boy toy, who can go and go and go and go? 00:10:00.889 --> 00:10:03.253 He doesn't need to be there for her. 00:10:03.273 --> 00:10:05.054 He doesn't need to have a real job. 00:10:05.095 --> 00:10:07.778 He's there to be pretty and be good in bed. 00:10:08.033 --> 00:10:13.399 I think that fantasy can be out there. 00:10:13.419 --> 00:10:25.052 I mean, I think the thing is, like, if we're going to get mad at people yucking on those old bodice rippers because they're like, who would want that? 00:10:25.332 --> 00:10:31.419 I don't feel like I can judge the person whose kink is, I'm 40 and he's 18. 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:33.863 You know, like, it's not my thing. 00:10:34.363 --> 00:10:34.403 No, 00:10:34.503 --> 00:10:35.585 I'm not judging. 00:10:35.845 --> 00:10:36.525 I'm 00:10:36.546 --> 00:10:36.765 not judging. 00:10:37.922 --> 00:10:39.123 That is part of it. 00:10:39.163 --> 00:10:49.716 I'm trying to picture a 50-year-old heroine who we could explain why she is single at 50 without it being a 00:10:49.836 --> 00:10:50.256 negative. 00:10:50.837 --> 00:11:02.191 It's not that I need everybody to be my age in a book, but they kind of are intentionally derogatory to older people,

older age groups in these books. 00:11:02.652 --> 00:11:02.991 Yeah. 00:11:03.192 --> 00:11:21.488 I think another thing that holds back from having the thing that makes them more likely to have age gap with an older man or even just an older man, you know, male main character rather than an older female main character is a lot of romances, a ton of romances end up with marriage and a baby, right? 00:11:21.908 --> 00:11:22.229 Children. 00:11:22.769 --> 00:11:25.315 What do you have in 50 year old women? 00:11:25.355 --> 00:11:26.878 Probably not childbearing. 00:11:26.977 --> 00:11:41.817 So if that is part of your thing, that we are setting them up for a happily ever after and she has a baby in the plan or it's a surprise baby or it's a hidden baby or any of those things, your older female character cannot run down that path. 00:11:42.217 --> 00:11:45.663 And I feel like that is so much of what is expected at the end. 00:11:45.883 --> 00:11:49.086 Even me, when I'm reading things, I was just reading one and I really, really liked it. 00:11:49.106 --> 00:11:52.432 And it was a book that It's called Mother Faker. 00:11:52.471 --> 00:11:56.440 And the lady is like early 40s and divorced. 00:11:56.480 --> 00:11:58.062 And he's actually early 40s. 00:11:58.664 --> 00:11:59.365 He's her boss. 00:12:00.067 --> 00:12:02.071 She's like a single mom. 00:12:02.091 --> 00:12:10.775 And he ends up with her and, you know, basically, like raise helps to raise her because he doesn't adopt them because Divorced dad is in the picture. 00:12:10.816 --> 00:12:15.825 So, but anyway, I kept thinking, oh, and now she's going to be pregnant and they're going to have babies together. 00:12:15.865 --> 00:12:17.447 And like, no, they didn't. 00:12:17.548 --> 00:12:20.833 They were happy with, you know, went off with the family that she already had. 00:12:21.254 --> 00:12:29.529 But I mean, it was kind of like, to me, it's like, it's so expected in those romance novels, whether it be old school ones or new ones. 00:12:30.110 --> 00:12:50.575 Now, I think that if we accept that people that writers can write about plenty of things that they had to use their imagination for that are not at all like real life, then we can't necessarily excuse away their unwillingness to imagine an older female sexual being. 00:12:50.674 --> 00:12:58.361 Like if you can imagine a dragon shifter, which very clearly doesn't exist in real life, you could imagine a super hot 54 year old woman. 00:12:58.883 --> 00:13:01.725 But I do think, you know, right. 00:13:02.337 --> 00:13:06.931 But you also have to, I think you have to find your market, right? 00:13:07.633 --> 00:13:16.638 Shit talking, old romantic movies that have very similar kind of what we might call outdated movies. 00:13:16.738 --> 00:13:21.889 views on romance or relationships or male field dynamics. 00:13:22.168 --> 00:13:28.903 I mean, forget about any sort of non-hetero relationship in a 1940s romance movie that didn't exist. 00:13:29.203 --> 00:13:35.998 But I don't hear people, I hear people who are more able to recognize that they were a thing of their time. 00:13:36.258 --> 00:13:46.913 You know, like I listen to a lot of old time radio and I listen to a podcast that discusses old time radio and they'll talk about, I mean, some of them have stuff that's just really bad. 00:13:47.073 --> 00:14:02.255 You know, they have a character that is supposed to be Asian being played by a white person with a completely stereotypical Asian accent or, or Hispanic character who has such a, just really harmful stereotypes. 00:14:03.017 --> 00:14:08.995 And I, they can talk about the fact that this chunk of this is really not good. 00:14:10.657 --> 00:14:13.861 Now that we know better, we go, ooh, that's really cringe. 00:14:13.923 --> 00:14:21.534 That part is very cringe, but we can see these other portions and recognize the strengths of this. 00:14:22.076 --> 00:14:33.171 I'm not saying that we just write off everything as of its time, you know, because I sometimes think that's a cop out, you know, when people are like, well, you know, that was grandma's generation when they said that. 00:14:33.230 --> 00:14:34.712 I was like, grandma has an iPhone. 00:14:34.993 --> 00:14:36.475 Grandma figured out Facebook. 00:14:36.575 --> 00:14:43.443 So grandma can figure out that we don't call black people that particular word that grandma just used anymore. 00:14:43.945 --> 00:14:56.297 So I think that your point is well taken that There is nuance and you can find a lot of strengths in older things while still acknowledging, eh, this is problematic. 00:14:57.038 --> 00:15:01.884 And then it just depends on how far the individual reader gets. 00:15:01.923 --> 00:15:03.927 I mean, we talked a little bit about Shaina, right? 00:15:04.467 --> 00:15:09.695 I had trouble getting past some of those things that are less acceptable today. 00:15:09.715 --> 00:15:13.379 I had trouble with that with the dependent woman. 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:14.922 I thought that she was a brat. 00:15:15.234 --> 00:15:20.221 I did not understand why a guy would be interested in her other than for her body. 00:15:20.341 --> 00:15:21.844 So that was not particularly interesting. 00:15:21.864 --> 00:15:24.467 So I was like, she's a pain in the butt. 00:15:24.528 --> 00:15:27.373 She doesn't really talk intelligently about anything. 00:15:27.413 --> 00:15:29.375 She's like a petulant child. 00:15:29.416 --> 00:15:34.344 Okay, I guess all he wants and all he ever talks about is how gorgeous she is, right? 00:15:34.403 --> 00:15:35.785 Well, that's kind of shallow. 00:15:36.366 --> 00:15:37.307 And I couldn't get past that. 00:15:37.489 --> 00:15:42.395 And I understand that you say that as it goes on, they do develop a true relationship that's built on more than just lust. 00:15:42.495 --> 00:15:43.157 But I... 00:15:43.649 --> 00:15:46.072 just got so annoyed with her. 00:15:46.273 --> 00:15:57.846 And then for me,

because we view consent differently, not you and I, but today's world views consent differently, I had trouble. 00:15:57.866 --> 00:16:03.013 I think if there had been enough other things I liked about the book, I could have overlooked that. 00:16:03.354 --> 00:16:10.182 I could have been like, eh, that's not great, but I just, I couldn't move past that. 00:16:11.073 --> 00:16:14.600 First of all, I don't think you can police people's sexual fantasies. 00:16:14.620 --> 00:16:27.241 I mean, you can speculate and analyze, but I don't think it is fair or even healthy to start criticizing people for a rape fantasy or a non-con or a dove con or any of that stuff because who's the boss of that? 00:16:27.282 --> 00:16:29.265 For other people, that's just not good. 00:16:29.726 --> 00:16:35.956 But there are, nevertheless, there are cases where it's clearly new, and I don't think this is one of 00:16:36.017 --> 00:16:36.197 them. 00:16:37.121 --> 00:16:40.264 I understand what you're saying about a deal. 00:16:40.544 --> 00:16:46.370 It is very difficult for me to examine it and take away the modern lens. 00:16:47.152 --> 00:16:52.037 Because if someone said to my daughter, I'm going to take you out to dinner. 00:16:52.057 --> 00:16:55.059 I'm going to buy you an expensive dinner. 00:16:55.100 --> 00:17:01.807 So I guess the question is, at what point is it okay to say no and remove consent? 00:17:01.886 --> 00:17:04.950 And at what point would you say, well, I've said no. 00:17:05.410 --> 00:17:07.553 this is too big of a deal and you can't go back on it. 00:17:08.493 --> 00:17:14.500 I mean, which leads me to the bigger part of the consent or lack of consent. 00:17:14.701 --> 00:17:19.446 Wasn't the deal breaker for me, but because I didn't have anything else in there. 00:17:19.467 --> 00:17:22.951 I mean, you just sat there and described all the ways that she's a shitty character. 00:17:23.251 --> 00:17:24.532 She's a shitty person. 00:17:24.854 --> 00:17:28.999 She's there to use him to get away from her father. 00:17:29.259 --> 00:17:32.482 And she is dishonest with him and makes bargains. 00:17:32.563 --> 00:17:34.806 She has no intention of following through on. 00:17:34.945 --> 00:17:42.515 So even if I could overlook the consent, why would I want to keep reading about this? 00:17:42.615 --> 00:17:44.517 Like you're a gross person. 00:17:45.298 --> 00:17:54.387 That is more of a, I guess what I'm saying is we have different, like people in general have different things that they can overlook. 00:17:54.929 --> 00:17:55.209 Right. 00:17:56.611 --> 00:18:01.051 And if you have enough things that you like, I mean, we have that friend, right? 00:18:01.092 --> 00:18:07.499 That friend who you're like, oh, they have that flaw that is so I generally really don't like, but they have all these other good things that I like. 00:18:07.578 --> 00:18:09.421 So I'm willing to put up with that. 00:18:10.221 --> 00:18:19.613 I think the reason it exists in a fantasy is that even if it doesn't seem like there's choice, there is choice. 00:18:19.633 --> 00:18:26.921 I don't think anybody fantasizes about being in a situation where they truly have no choice, right? 00:18:26.961 --> 00:18:27.301 If you... 00:18:27.554 --> 00:18:40.593 like the idea of ravishment, there's a point in you that thinks that, yes, but if this was really, really bad, if I was really being hurt or really being scared or really this, I have the choice to stop this. 00:18:41.054 --> 00:18:46.561 I don't think that any, and I think that that's what makes it a fantasy, right? 00:18:46.882 --> 00:18:48.144 Because you've always got a safe word. 00:18:48.263 --> 00:18:49.125 You just close the book. 00:18:49.405 --> 00:18:50.146 That's your safe word. 00:18:51.128 --> 00:18:52.069 I mean, that is the other thing. 00:18:52.130 --> 00:19:02.509 If we're talking about Shana, I did not get far enough into the, book to truly see if Rurik was a good person. 00:19:02.529 --> 00:19:05.654 I mean, I got far enough to see that, like, he was great on the plantation, right? 00:19:05.674 --> 00:19:08.740 He had all these great innovative ideas and he seemed to be a really good worker. 00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:20.259 But, well, and I think that so many of the older ones that I read, even when they are steamy, they are written from the male pleasure perspective, right? 00:19:20.859 --> 00:19:26.624 And so that's a difference that I see in more contemporary ones. 00:19:27.045 --> 00:19:40.242 You see ones where there's more going on and we acknowledge that maybe we're going to consider the woman's pleasure and maybe tonight the man goes home a little bit unsatisfied, but the lady does not. 00:19:40.784 --> 00:19:44.589 And I don't feel like I saw those in the historical ones. 00:19:45.490 --> 00:19:47.713 But I'll tell you what, I am very surprised still. 00:19:47.894 --> 00:20:11.644 I've read a lot of the contemporary books and Some of them I hate a lot, some of them I love, but I still cannot believe how for all the talk about equality and progress and blah, blah, blah, that how these heroes or male characters now treat the women that are in the books because it's very, very misogynist, patriarchal. 00:20:11.684 --> 00:20:16.070 It's even many times worse than it was in the vintage historicals. 00:20:16.090 --> 00:20:17.854 I mean, they're horrible. 00:20:18.145 --> 00:20:36.326 and the women don't at least in the vintage books they fought back initially they might have caved in but they were like you at first and they were like i'm gonna fight this and you overpowered her but now they're just they just take it and i just like what are you doing you're talking about this 00:20:37.428 --> 00:20:50.286 and i find in the contemporaries that that is equally annoying like i said did i read All the Fifty Shades and the ones that were in that, the Crossfire and all those, I did because the steam is good. 00:20:50.306 --> 00:20:56.897 But the fact that the

guys, yeah, they were jerks. 00:20:57.278 --> 00:21:00.023 I mean, I did not find that appealing. 00:21:00.183 --> 00:21:01.205 When I was young... 00:21:01.794 --> 00:21:05.057 I believed, I watched a ton of soap operas. 00:21:05.258 --> 00:21:07.121 My mother loved soap operas. 00:21:07.540 --> 00:21:09.644 I watched the daytime ones. 00:21:09.824 --> 00:21:11.946 I watched the nighttime ones. 00:21:12.788 --> 00:21:23.521 And I very much feel like those gave the message that with the love of a good woman, this man can be changed, right? 00:21:24.226 --> 00:21:27.230 And that's not real life. 00:21:27.790 --> 00:21:30.654 That's why women get themselves into stupid, toxic relationships. 00:21:31.255 --> 00:21:36.742 So I don't like it in those contemporary ones where I was like, he's an asshole. 00:21:37.002 --> 00:21:40.428 I know that he's rich and super hot, but surely you can find somebody. 00:21:40.488 --> 00:21:42.009 Maybe they don't have a billion dollars. 00:21:43.070 --> 00:21:49.539 Maybe they're pulling in like$100,000 and they're hot, but they're also going to be nice to you. 00:21:49.840 --> 00:21:53.766 So I find that annoying, even in the contemporary. 00:21:54.210 --> 00:21:59.278 books, the poor treatment, the asshole jerk imbalance of power. 00:21:59.979 --> 00:22:01.221 Maybe that's their kink. 00:22:01.882 --> 00:22:02.763 Maybe they like that. 00:22:02.923 --> 00:22:04.145 Maybe they like being demeaned. 00:22:04.926 --> 00:22:07.211 Actually, there's interesting parallels between that. 00:22:07.270 --> 00:22:15.103 And we want to talk about the tropes that people denigrate in old school, but eat up in the newer genres. 00:22:15.683 --> 00:22:18.367 But I don't think that's good for women. 00:22:18.448 --> 00:22:19.589 I don't think it's good for older women. 00:22:19.710 --> 00:22:24.593 I mean, you can't do that without hurting women and hurting romance. 00:22:24.633 --> 00:22:35.847 You have to at least, you don't have to like what other people like, but you have to be able to criticize without writing off a whole generation of 00:22:36.448 --> 00:22:37.490 women. 00:22:37.829 --> 00:22:42.395 I think it's also assuming that, I mean, you and I have had this whole discussion, right? 00:22:42.435 --> 00:22:47.041 I am much more a reader of, though you and I are peers, right? 00:22:47.262 --> 00:22:48.144 We're about the same age. 00:22:49.265 --> 00:22:54.712 I am more a fan of the contemporary and you were more a fan of the ones that were written back then. 00:22:55.953 --> 00:23:08.191 To assume that only someone of your age enjoys those, that there's not some 18 or 12-year-old out there who's today's 12-year-old who's reading those books and loving them, I mean, I think it's kind of silly. 00:23:08.290 --> 00:23:15.560 So yeah, I mean, I think that we need to acknowledge that there's going to be people of all ages to whom those books 00:23:15.580 --> 00:23:15.781 are 00:23:15.922 --> 00:23:16.061 written. 00:23:16.546

--> 00:23:19.531 What about the argument that the artistic freedom was never there? 00:23:19.592 --> 00:23:21.215 It's just been shifted, right? 00:23:21.395 --> 00:23:26.867 Because before the days of like self-publishing, who were the arbiters about whether anything was going to get out there? 00:23:27.869 --> 00:23:29.272 Publishing houses, right? 00:23:29.292 --> 00:23:33.781 If they decided they didn't like your view, nobody was reading your book. 00:23:34.743 --> 00:23:37.269 Now, with self-publishing... 00:23:38.306 --> 00:23:41.609 I don't think that there's any more freedom. 00:23:41.730 --> 00:23:43.893 I don't think there was more freedom before. 00:23:43.933 --> 00:23:48.420 I guess what I'm saying is now it's just a different person telling you, I don't like your views. 00:23:48.900 --> 00:23:50.281 I don't want these views out there. 00:23:50.823 --> 00:23:54.488 It's Joe commenter, not Random House. 00:23:54.948 --> 00:23:56.711 But I still think that was there. 00:23:56.871 --> 00:24:02.679 I think there were people who decided that view is not something that we think should be put out there. 00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:05.041 And therefore, we're not publishing your book. 00:24:05.761 --> 00:24:08.726 I'm going to say the market is there for a lot of this romance stuff. 00:24:08.786 --> 00:24:12.530 There are just people saying it shouldn't be out there and available, but there is a market. 00:24:12.570 --> 00:24:16.696 They're just, you know, it's not that nobody wants to read these things. 00:24:16.717 --> 00:24:17.178 Right. 00:24:17.597 --> 00:24:19.039 So how are people saying you can't 00:24:19.101 --> 00:24:19.601 read these things? 00:24:19.641 --> 00:24:20.883 You should not, you should not. 00:24:22.505 --> 00:24:29.915 So as an author, if you're writing something that someone tells you, you shouldn't write, but you believe there's a market out there, how do you reach that market? 00:24:30.817 --> 00:24:40.901 How do you, get those other people who are going to say to the same reviewer i don't agree with you you don't get to tell me what i like like how do you find those people because if they're there they're there right so 00:24:41.782 --> 00:25:05.326 you put it out there and they sell or they don't sell but then you get somebody makes a video that goes viral that criticizes it and then everybody's hating on you and then you know you have to take your books down or be you know what you know constantly hounded on social media for, or somebody wants you to take your books down or Amazon wants to take it down because now everybody in the universe is saying you're a whatever. 00:25:05.346 --> 00:25:06.909 Oh, so. 00:25:07.690 --> 00:25:07.910 All right. 00:25:08.130 --> 00:25:14.877 So I guess I'm never going to get you to read a, um, my favorite shifter, my polyamorous paranormal dragon shifter. 00:25:14.897 --> 00:25:16.759 Like 00:25:16.920 --> 00:25:21.726 I'm hoping we're like, I'm not much of a fan of fantasy, but I will give that one a try. 00:25:22.273 --> 00:25:23.194 I didn't think I would be. 00:25:23.214 --> 00:25:23.675 I'll tell you what. 00:25:24.237 --> 00:25:32.047 When I started reading romance again, I was like, I am going to stick with my historicals because all of this, forget today, the modern stuff, kids today, you know, all that. 00:25:32.067 --> 00:25:40.377 But then, then I found dragon shifters and my perspective changed a little bit, especially the ones where, and then I'm like, oh, it's only going to be two people. 00:25:40.597 --> 00:25:43.582 I can't imagine who we want to read about, you know, like more than two people gross. 00:25:43.622 --> 00:26:01.345 And then, and then I found Amy Penza's like dragon shifter, her universe is these dragons and, There's two guys, two dragon shifters that are lovers for centuries until they find, they mate in threes, but they're not complete until they find their third, who is a woman. 00:26:01.384 --> 00:26:01.464 Okay. 00:26:01.484 --> 00:26:05.750 And then they have this whole, and I'm like, who would have ever thought? 00:26:05.971 --> 00:26:09.315 You might think that doesn't have a sign of healing, but it actually can be. 00:26:10.537 --> 00:26:11.577 I will give that a try. 00:26:14.221 --> 00:26:14.301 Okay.