Full Transcript for The Case for "Doing Nothing" in a Time of Crisis | Sebene Selassie & Jeff Warren

sit still and start to relax the body, 71 00:04:04.129 --> 00:04:07.210 start to ease our minds. And the transformation that can 72 00:04:07.250 --> 00:04:08.050 come from that is. 73 00:04:08.009 --> 00:04:08.469 To be seen. 74 00:04:10.430 --> 00:04:10.669 Okay. 75 00:04:10.689 --> 00:04:14.919 So that's a clip from day one of the 10% 76 00:04:14.919 --> 00:04:19.310 Happier Summer Sanity Challenge. So you'll see more if you 77 00:04:19.329 --> 00:04:21.079 actually take the challenge, and I hope you do actually 78 00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:23.100 take the challenge. But that's just a little bit of 79 00:04:23.259 --> 00:04:26.560 the clip. And so let me start this conversation by 80 00:04:26.620 --> 00:04:29.620 asking you, Seb, in your mind, what is the value 81 00:04:29.639 --> 00:04:33.439 of doing a meditation challenge in the midst of all 82 00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:35.500 of this chaos that we're living through? 83 00:04:36.439 --> 00:04:40.939 Well, I think I'm saying something both obvious and an 84 00:04:41.019 --> 00:04:44.839 understatement to say the last few months have been really, 85 00:04:44.959 --> 00:04:49.629 really intense for for everyone at different levels, but no 86 00:04:49.730 --> 00:04:52.269 one has not been touched by what's been going on. 87 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:56.819 So I'm a meditation teacher. Obviously, I'm going to think 88 00:04:56.879 --> 00:05:00.560 that meditation can have a profound effect on us to 89 00:05:00.620 --> 00:05:04.279 help us support us through challenges. And I think a 90 00:05:04.379 --> 00:05:10.170 challenge like this, where there's guidance, there's structure, there are 91 00:05:10.329 --> 00:05:14.430 great meditations offered, and also there's a sense of community 92 00:05:14.449 --> 00:05:18.779 could be really helpful for starting a practice or revving 93 00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:22.180 an old practice back up again, or just giving us 94 00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:26.439 a break during the day when we're all just navigating 95 00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:27.019 so much. 96 00:05:28.120 --> 00:05:28.600 Well said. 97 00:05:28.620 --> 00:05:31.600 And Jeff, let me bring you in here because we 98 00:05:31.639 --> 00:05:35.230 talk about in that clip from day one of the challenge, 99 00:05:36.129 --> 00:05:38.490 For some people, it's hard to get their heads around 100 00:05:38.509 --> 00:05:41.360 the notion of doing nothing. But that is not a 101 00:05:41.379 --> 00:05:44.160 tough notion for you. You have a whole series on 102 00:05:44.180 --> 00:05:46.879 YouTube called the Do Nothing Project. So can you just 103 00:05:46.920 --> 00:05:49.600 hold forth a little bit on the value of doing nothing? 104 00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:56.730 Spreading my gospel of indolence to the masses. Yeah, I mean, 105 00:05:56.790 --> 00:06:01.750 doing nothing is actually it's doing something. It's creating space. 106 00:06:02.670 --> 00:06:06.610 It's what allows us to reset, you know, to then 107 00:06:06.769 --> 00:06:10.569 come to a place where we feel. 108 00:06:10.389 --> 00:06:11.350 Okay in the moment. 109 00:06:11.389 --> 00:06:15.000 So then when we come back into our actions, our life, 110 00:06:15.139 --> 00:06:20.639 whatever's happening, we have more clarity, more presence, more appropriateness 111 00:06:20.680 --> 00:06:23.480 in our responses. So it's sort of like we're, when 112 00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:26.540 we do nothing, it allows, we're kind of like cleaning 113 00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:29.899 off the signals. We're cleaning out all the interference, all 114 00:06:29.939 --> 00:06:33.310 the gum from so much activity to kind of come 115 00:06:33.389 --> 00:06:37.110 back into a baseline state that we could then more 116 00:06:37.149 --> 00:06:39.870 intelligently enter into our life from that place. 117 00:06:40.529 --> 00:06:42.529 I love hearing the two of you talk. This is cool. 118 00:06:43.529 --> 00:06:45.980 Let's bring in a voicemail. So as we said, we're 119 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:47.480 going to be throughout this episode, we're going to play 120 00:06:47.519 --> 00:06:49.860 little clips from the challenge itself, and then we're going 121 00:06:49.879 --> 00:06:53.240 to bring in voicemail questions from listeners. 122 00:06:54.040 --> 00:06:55.199 Here's the first question. 123 00:06:55.899 --> 00:06:56.199 Hello. 124 00:06:56.420 --> 00:06:59.920 Now that restrictions have been loosening up where I live, 125 00:07:00.879 --> 00:07:03.639 we're allowed to go out and meet other people, obviously, 126 00:07:03.660 --> 00:07:08.089 with social distancing. But having been shelter in place for 127 00:07:08.149 --> 00:07:10.269 so long, I'm actually in a bit of a panic 128 00:07:10.329 --> 00:07:14.529 about going out and seeing friends, even with social distancing. 129 00:07:14.889 --> 00:07:16.129 How do I get through that? 130 00:07:17.709 --> 00:07:19.829 This is such a great question. And, Seb, I want 131 00:07:19.850 --> 00:07:22.879 to go to you first on this question. in part 132 00:07:22.899 --> 00:07:25.160 because I'm in the middle of reading your forthcoming book, 133 00:07:25.220 --> 00:07:27.279 which is called You Belong and is really good. And 134 00:07:27.300 --> 00:07:29.420 we're going to do a whole episode on the book. 135 00:07:30.100 --> 00:07:32.040 But in the book, you refer a couple times to 136 00:07:32.060 --> 00:07:36.769 yourself as awkward, which I've never actually seen you be awkward, 137 00:07:36.810 --> 00:07:39.870 but clearly that's going on for you somewhere. So what 138 00:07:39.949 --> 00:07:43.670 I hear in that question is social anxiety. Is meditation, 139 00:07:43.709 --> 00:07:45.209 in your view, useful on this score? 140 00:07:45.730 --> 00:07:49.550 Absolutely. And, you know, my inner teenager is feeling very 141 00:07:49.689 --> 00:07:52.819 held and seen right now. So I appreciate that. I 142 00:07:53.319 --> 00:07:56.920 have been navigating in the past week or so, really 143

00:07:57.079 --> 00:08:01.009 re-engaging with going out. So I really appreciate this question 144 00:08:01.209 --> 00:08:05.470 and this listener acknowledging that stuff is going to come 145 00:08:05.529 --> 00:08:08.750 up for us. We've spent months, many of us, isolated 146 00:08:08.790 --> 00:08:12.019 to some degree or another from our usual activities. And 147 00:08:13.050 --> 00:08:16.129 It's natural for us to have a response or a 148 00:08:16.189 --> 00:08:20.029 reaction even to re-engaging. And I know for me, a 149 00:08:20.149 --> 00:08:22.329 lot of anxiety was coming up the first time I 150 00:08:22.350 --> 00:08:26.329 took the subway last week again, going into Manhattan and 151 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:31.439 sort of witnessing a changed world. And the first thing 152 00:08:31.500 --> 00:08:34.279 that we learn in mindfulness is to be aware of 153 00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:37.919 what's happening. And while we're doing that, we also bring 154 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:42.250 this quality of allowing our acceptance into And so this 155 00:08:42.370 --> 00:08:45.629 listener is really already doing the practice to be aware 156 00:08:45.730 --> 00:08:50.149 that anxiety is arising. And the challenge sometimes is to 157 00:08:50.649 --> 00:08:54.139 not react in judgment or trying to push away or 158 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:58.179 change things basically to bring tension to it. So we 159 00:08:58.200 --> 00:09:01.399 want to bring attention to it, but not tenseness. So 160 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:06.919 bringing that quality of just kindness to ourselves is really important. 161 00:09:06.960 --> 00:09:10.000 And that's been the thing that's changed. so much for me, 162 00:09:10.059 --> 00:09:11.559 the anxiety that I deal with. 163 00:09:12.970 --> 00:09:15.750 Jeff, what do you say about the social anxiety and 164 00:09:15.769 --> 00:09:16.889 the value of meditation there? 165 00:09:17.450 --> 00:09:20.789 Well, I mean, just to respond to the listener's question, 166 00:09:20.809 --> 00:09:22.990 I just think, first of all, it's normal to be 167 00:09:23.789 --> 00:09:26.090 worried about this because we got all these messages about 168 00:09:26.110 --> 00:09:27.809 how dangerous it was to go out for so long. 169 00:09:27.850 --> 00:09:29.929 And now we're getting messages that, oh, it's okay to 170 00:09:29.950 --> 00:09:32.570 go out in these certain circumstances or these kinds of ways. 171 00:09:33.070 --> 00:09:34.669 So that can be a bit of a disconnect. So 172 00:09:34.690 --> 00:09:37.940 I think it's normal for people to feel anxious. And 173 00:09:37.960 --> 00:09:41.220 then I would just say around the social piece in particular, 174 00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:44.000 you know, the great thing about mindfulness is it can 175 00:09:44.100 --> 00:09:47.379 actually bring a lot of clarity into what's really going on. 176 00:09:47.490 --> 00:09:49.850 So sometimes we have a sort of nebulous sense of 177 00:09:49.950 --> 00:09:53.269 fear

or anxiety and it's just sort of generalized. But 178 00:09:53.330 --> 00:09:55.570 if you actually bring it, you know, in this case, 179 00:09:55.870 --> 00:09:59.269 the listeners worried about, you know, meeting their friends. 180 00:09:59.309 --> 00:10:01.679 Well, maybe there's a specific thing that they're worried about. 181 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:04.379 Like maybe actually, I know maybe they're worried that their 182 00:10:04.419 --> 00:10:05.620 friends are going to give them a big hug and 183 00:10:05.659 --> 00:10:07.279 they feel like they're too polite to say, no, I 184 00:10:07.299 --> 00:10:07.860 don't want to do that. 185 00:10:07.879 --> 00:10:08.820 I'm uncomfortable with that. 186 00:10:08.860 --> 00:10:10.879 And so if you can kind of drill down into 187 00:10:10.919 --> 00:10:13.929 that anxiousness and get clear about what specifically you're worried about, 188 00:10:14.330 --> 00:10:16.830 then you may be able to make, take some action 189 00:10:16.889 --> 00:10:19.289 that can make you feel better. Like, you know, call 190 00:10:19.330 --> 00:10:20.970 your friends and say, okay, so let's just agree on 191 00:10:21.009 --> 00:10:23.570 our protocol here. You know, I need to know that 192 00:10:23.610 --> 00:10:26.269 we're going to be two meters apart or whatever. So, 193 00:10:26.429 --> 00:10:28.360 I mean, maybe it's a different thing, but just the 194 00:10:28.379 --> 00:10:31.879 more specificity you can bring using the practice, the more, 195 00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:34.519 the better you can then create a response, the more 196 00:10:34.539 --> 00:10:35.259 appropriate response. 197 00:10:36.220 --> 00:10:38.940 So along those lines, Jeff, on the subject of anxiety, 198 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:41.470 that's actually something that Seb and I spend a lot 199 00:10:41.490 --> 00:10:44.110 of time talking about during the challenge. And we have 200 00:10:44.129 --> 00:10:46.889 a lot of meditations designed to help people with anxiety, 201 00:10:46.909 --> 00:10:50.480 which of course is extremely common in this tumultuous era. 202 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:53.460 So let me just tee up here another clip from 203 00:10:53.639 --> 00:10:57.200 the conversation that Seb and I have as part of 204 00:10:57.220 --> 00:10:57.779 the challenge. 205 00:10:57.940 --> 00:11:00.840 Take a listen. Yesterday, I was telling the. 206 00:11:00.799 --> 00:11:04.419 Story about this little mantra that I got from Joseph Goldstein, 207 00:11:04.460 --> 00:11:07.960 that when I'm worrying about something, maybe ask myself. 208 00:11:07.730 --> 00:11:09.330 The question, is this useful? 209 00:11:09.629 --> 00:11:14.830 Which can kind of jar me out of repetitive rumination. 210 00:11:15.750 --> 00:11:20.340 There are other ways to deal with anxiety through meditative techniques, 211 00:11:20.500 --> 00:11:22.470 and a lot of them have to do with the breath. 212 00:11:22.570 --> 00:11:24.789 So what comes to mind on that score? 213 00:11:25.850 -->

00:11:29.549 Well, a lot of us learn about breath meditation using 214 00:11:29.629 --> 00:11:33.649 the attentional quality we've practiced to just kind of be 215 00:11:33.730 --> 00:11:36.830 with the breath, pay attention to it. When we get distracted, 216 00:11:36.909 --> 00:11:41.129 come back. And that's really useful for developing that capacity. 217 00:11:41.549 --> 00:11:45.029 But sometimes we want to intentionally relax our body and 218 00:11:45.080 --> 00:11:48.720 we can use the breath for that. So deep belly breathing, 219 00:11:49.019 --> 00:11:53.370 really long inhales and long exhales. Even sighing can really 220 00:11:53.450 --> 00:11:57.370 help us in bringing some ease and some calm when 221 00:11:57.389 --> 00:11:58.190 there is anxiety. 222 00:11:59.820 --> 00:12:02.279 So that's me and Seb talking during the meditation challenge, 223 00:12:02.320 --> 00:12:03.860 which again, I hope all of you will sign up 224 00:12:03.899 --> 00:12:09.399 for the Summer Sanity Challenge. And another area where we dwell, 225 00:12:09.419 --> 00:12:15.100 I think, hopefully, helpfully in the challenge, which is how 226 00:12:15.139 --> 00:12:18.190 we can bring our meditation practice to bear at this 227 00:12:18.289 --> 00:12:22.740 moment of national and global change. racial reckoning so let 228 00:12:22.759 --> 00:12:26.679 me just play one last clip from the challenge videos 229 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:29.490 this is me and seb talking and then we'll get 230 00:12:29.750 --> 00:12:33.379 seb and jeff to talk about uh their thoughts on 231 00:12:33.620 --> 00:12:36.190 how we can use meditation at this time on the 232 00:12:36.230 --> 00:12:38.750 back end of this clip here we go and it's 233 00:12:39.049 --> 00:12:41.710 it's tough it's tough to do but i think it's 234 00:12:41.769 --> 00:12:44.129 just so important to know that you're not a bad 235 00:12:44.190 --> 00:12:49.179 person if you have thoughts that are embarrassing to you. 236 00:12:49.470 --> 00:12:52.529 You're a human person because as you like to say, 237 00:12:52.549 --> 00:12:55.190 there's a great quote that you like to, well, I'll 238 00:12:55.210 --> 00:12:56.990 let you say it. What's the quote that you use 239 00:12:57.029 --> 00:12:58.929 all the time that you're not thinking your thoughts? 240 00:12:59.210 --> 00:13:02.950 Yeah, that's Krishnamurti. You're not thinking your thoughts. You're thinking 241 00:13:03.009 --> 00:13:06.679 the culture's thoughts. So we take our thoughts so personally, 242 00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:09.360 we think we kind of invented them. But we're really, 243 00:13:09.820 --> 00:13:13.720 everything we've learned, all our thoughts, all our ways of being, 244 00:13:14.039 --> 00:13:17.370 we've gotten from that around us. And we live in 245 00:13:17.409 --> 00:13:20.830 a racist society. All of us are aware of that. 246 00:13:20.970 --> 00:13:23.730 And some people are starting to become more aware of 247 00:13:23.769 --> 00:13:29.549 that on a deep level. But yes, we think that 248 00:13:29.730 --> 00:13:31.340 we created that racist thought. 249 00:13:32.299 --> 00:13:34.210 We think we created it. Of course, we didn't. 250 00:13:34.519 --> 00:13:37.570 And we can, by seeing it clearly, not be owned 251 00:13:37.649 --> 00:13:41.950 by it. And this is a really important, vital meditative skill. 252 00:13:43.289 --> 00:13:45.070 And so, Seb, let me just bring you back in 253 00:13:45.149 --> 00:13:50.129 here just to talk about, as people contemplate whether to 254 00:13:50.149 --> 00:13:53.809 sign up for this challenge, the value of bringing meditation 255 00:13:54.149 --> 00:13:54.870 to this moment. 256 00:13:56.330 --> 00:14:00.769 I really don't know how we can solve our challenges 257 00:14:00.789 --> 00:14:08.309 of race, racism, inequality without mindfulness. Because so much of 258 00:14:08.389 --> 00:14:14.230 this is really that image of the icebergs. We're only 259 00:14:14.289 --> 00:14:17.309 seeing a small percentage of an iceberg. So much of 260 00:14:17.389 --> 00:14:20.250 it is under the water. And so much of our 261 00:14:20.289 --> 00:14:25.450 conditioning is unconscious. So this term unconscious bias and the 262 00:14:25.490 --> 00:14:30.269 meditation we have around that, we forget that unconscious bias, 263 00:14:30.309 --> 00:14:33.039 the most important part of that of that phrase is 264 00:14:33.059 --> 00:14:37.070 the unconscious part. So those of us who have conscious 265 00:14:37.110 --> 00:14:44.309 goals for equality and justice and for not bringing forth 266 00:14:44.389 --> 00:14:49.710 those thoughts and patterns and actions and speech into the world, 267 00:14:50.049 --> 00:14:54.389 those are our conscious goals. But unconsciously and just through 268 00:14:55.049 --> 00:14:59.049 years and for many of us, decades of patterning and conditioning, 269 00:14:59.970 --> 00:15:02.940 that's not what's going to emerge. So the first thing 270 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:06.600 is really learning to understand that these are not us. 271 00:15:07.139 --> 00:15:11.629 They're just our patterning. They're not necessarily, as I like 272 00:15:11.649 --> 00:15:14.210 to say, that doesn't mean that we're a bad person. 273 00:15:14.230 --> 00:15:16.570 It means we're a human person that we have these 274 00:15:16.610 --> 00:15:20.210 patterns and conditioning. And the practice helps us see that. 275 00:15:21.429 --> 00:15:24.700 It's not only through conscious action that this is going 276 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:27.440 to change, but actually allowing ourselves to go a little 277 00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:31.450 deeper into understand that unconscious patterning and start to see 278 00:15:31.509 --> 00:15:33.370 it clearly and start to release it. 279 00:15:34.629 --> 00:15:39.889 So let's talk about another big bugaboo for meditators, which 280 00:15:39.950 --> 00:15:43.250 is mind wandering. We have a voicemail along those lines. 281 00:15:43.289 -->

00:15:43.649 Here it is. 282 00:15:44.169 --> 00:15:48.309 Hi, I'm asking the question on how to avoid the 283 00:15:48.370 --> 00:15:52.509 mind wandering. My mind just goes crazy. I sit down, 284 00:15:52.700 --> 00:15:56.399 I hear too many things when I'm meditating. How do 285 00:15:56.940 --> 00:16:00.500 I just calm the mind? Thank you. 286 00:16:01.379 --> 00:16:03.899 Seb, let's start with you on this one. I think 287 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:05.830 there are probably a million answers to this question, but 288 00:16:06.139 --> 00:16:06.970 where do you go with it? 289 00:16:07.769 --> 00:16:10.389 Well, first of all, I think this person was in 290 00:16:10.450 --> 00:16:15.669 my mind during this morning's meditation. So this one is 291 00:16:16.220 --> 00:16:21.929 so key for practice because... Even for me, after years, 292 00:16:22.049 --> 00:16:26.159 decades of practicing, I can still slip into that judgment 293 00:16:26.440 --> 00:16:32.889 of the wandering mind. It's wonderful to have sort of gathered, concentrated, 294 00:16:33.009 --> 00:16:38.200 peaceful meditations, but that's not a goal. it's a by-product 295 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:42.120 of our circumstances, you know, and sometimes the mind is 296 00:16:42.179 --> 00:16:45.360 peaceful and not wandering and sometimes it is, and both 297 00:16:45.399 --> 00:16:49.919 of those are natural and our task and really our 298 00:16:50.019 --> 00:16:53.159 entire aspiration here is to be able to bring awareness 299 00:16:53.220 --> 00:16:56.850 to whatever is happening. So when I slip into that 300 00:16:56.909 --> 00:17:00.909 judging mind, I know that's really judging of my mind wandering. 301 00:17:01.129 --> 00:17:04.309 I know that's an opportunity for me to kind of 302 00:17:04.529 --> 00:17:08.960 relax and, Recognize that I'm aware. Once I know it's happening, 303 00:17:08.980 --> 00:17:11.440 I'm not lost in the wandering. I'm actually bringing a 304 00:17:11.619 --> 00:17:16.539 certain amount of attention and mindfulness to it. And then 305 00:17:16.660 --> 00:17:20.349 to really just allow that. When I slip into that 306 00:17:20.490 --> 00:17:25.150 attitude of thinking this shouldn't be happening, then there's another 307 00:17:25.190 --> 00:17:28.829 opportunity to allow and relax. So it's that process over 308 00:17:28.890 --> 00:17:32.920 and over again. And getting really, really comfortable with that 309 00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:34.559 process is the practice. 310 00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:36.759 Jeff, do you want to add anything? 311 00:17:38.059 --> 00:17:42.640 Just welcome to the human condition. Your mind wanders. That's 312 00:17:42.920 --> 00:17:46.539 what minds do. It's the glorious, beautiful, creative thing that 313 00:17:46.579 --> 00:17:49.940 is a mind. I do have a kind of judo 314 00:17:49.980 --> 00:17:52.309 move that I use when I have a lot of 315 00:17:52.660 --> 00:17:57.549 mind wandering, which is sometimes I actually meditate on the 316 00:17:57.589 --> 00:18:00.940 thoughts themselves. So noticing that auditory part of it, the 317 00:18:00.980 --> 00:18:05.230 visual part of it. And just watching them and being 318 00:18:05.289 --> 00:18:07.450 curious about them can sometimes make them cool out right 319 00:18:07.470 --> 00:18:10.970 there because it's like they get shy or something. And 320 00:18:11.009 --> 00:18:12.589 then there's also a thing sometimes where you can kind 321 00:18:12.630 --> 00:18:15.930 of notice the gaps or the pauses between the thoughts. 322 00:18:16.690 --> 00:18:20.109 And then that gets really interesting. Suddenly you're tuning in 323 00:18:20.150 --> 00:18:22.349 that there is actually more space in there than I realized. 324 00:18:22.410 --> 00:18:25.450 And the more you notice them, the wider those spaces get, 325 00:18:25.509 --> 00:18:28.119 the more You notice them in other contexts, too. So 326 00:18:28.579 --> 00:18:31.559 having lots of thoughts can actually be a really rich 327 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:33.720 opportunity within a meditation context. 328 00:18:34.579 --> 00:18:37.500 Yeah, we do a lot of guided meditations within the 329 00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:42.369 challenge itself about, you know, mind wandering. And just to 330 00:18:42.450 --> 00:18:46.089 expand on that slightly, we will also be featuring meditations 331 00:18:46.130 --> 00:18:48.910 in the challenge that specifically deal with mind wandering and 332 00:18:48.990 --> 00:18:50.910 the kind of mind wandering that a lot of us 333 00:18:50.950 --> 00:18:53.019 are experiencing during these times. 334 00:18:53.950 --> 00:18:54.809 Difficult times. 335 00:18:55.269 --> 00:18:57.430 And speaking of these difficult times, there's a question that 336 00:18:57.450 --> 00:19:01.910 was sent in via voicemail to us about depression. 337 00:19:02.019 --> 00:19:03.019 So let's play that one. 338 00:19:03.970 --> 00:19:08.420 My question is, since everything's been shut down and following 339 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:10.799 the news and as a result of just all of 340 00:19:10.900 --> 00:19:14.619 it combined, I found myself being quite depressed over the 341 00:19:14.660 --> 00:19:21.299 last month. It'll come and go. And so I'm wondering 342 00:19:21.500 --> 00:19:27.569 what the... what the strategy should be for being mindfully depressed, 343 00:19:28.410 --> 00:19:35.440 how to go about practicing mindfulness and respecting depression and 344 00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:44.170 not judging oneself because of it, and how to try 345 00:19:44.390 --> 00:19:49.559 to mindfully hope in times of isolation and quarantine. Thank you. 346 00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:51.960 Jeff, let me start with you on this one, because 347 00:19:51.980 --> 00:19:53.940 you've been very open and candid, and I think in 348 00:19:53.980 --> 00:19:56.200 a really useful way about your own mental health challenges. 349 00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:59.589 And I'll just say that for me, for sure, there 350 00:19:59.609 -->

00:20:02.690 have been periods during the past four months where just 351 00:20:02.750 --> 00:20:06.950 those beginning tendrils of the It's what's sometimes referred to 352 00:20:06.990 --> 00:20:09.430 as the black dog of depression. I can feel those 353 00:20:09.490 --> 00:20:12.730 tendrils start to come up. Luckily, it hasn't been much, 354 00:20:12.819 --> 00:20:14.980 much more than that. But I've struggled a little bit 355 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:18.140 with how to do that mindfully rather than just run 356 00:20:18.180 --> 00:20:18.730 away from it. 357 00:20:19.019 --> 00:20:19.579 What do you think? 358 00:20:20.259 --> 00:20:21.839 Yeah, well, it's a learning process. 359 00:20:22.380 --> 00:20:25.789 I would say the biggest insight I've had around this 360 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:31.990 is recognizing when... that depression is just a natural and 361 00:20:32.049 --> 00:20:34.750 normal response to what's going on in the world. And 362 00:20:34.789 --> 00:20:37.160 that it's a normal response to be bummed out about it. 363 00:20:37.609 --> 00:20:40.900 And when it goes into a place of being really 364 00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:44.359 more chronic and extended, and like there's almost a sense 365 00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:46.700 in which I'm keeping it going. So I can unpack 366 00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:50.339 that in a moment. But the main thing is how 367 00:20:50.519 --> 00:20:55.049 I deal with these downs is I naturalize them. That 368 00:20:55.109 --> 00:20:58.789 means I recognize that this is my body's attempt to 369 00:20:59.220 --> 00:21:02.089 just kind of get quiet and rest. It doesn't have 370 00:21:02.369 --> 00:21:04.910 the same amount of energy as it normally does. And 371 00:21:04.950 --> 00:21:08.410 if I can tease apart the storyline in my head, 372 00:21:08.450 --> 00:21:11.079 which is I shouldn't be bummed out, I shouldn't be tired. 373 00:21:11.099 --> 00:21:13.279 I'm so, this is, I can't believe this is happening. 374 00:21:13.299 --> 00:21:17.140 That whole kind of storyline of suffering and just stick 375 00:21:17.259 --> 00:21:19.539 to what it actually feels like in my body to 376 00:21:19.579 --> 00:21:23.589 be down, which is the achiness, the low energy-ness and everything. 377 00:21:23.950 --> 00:21:26.230 just stay with that, then it becomes much more manageable. 378 00:21:26.309 --> 00:21:29.910 In fact, it becomes an opportunity to put a different 379 00:21:29.930 --> 00:21:32.910 story in, which is that this is actually my body 380 00:21:32.950 --> 00:21:35.539 taking care of me. This is my body saying, I 381 00:21:35.619 --> 00:21:39.660 need to get nurtured and rest and chill, and that 382 00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:41.500 that's where I'm at right now. And if we can 383 00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:44.660 see that as something that's actually quite beautiful and healthy 384 00:21:45.099 --> 00:21:48.789 and caring, then that changes the whole experience of those downs. 385 00:21:48.970 --> 00:21:51.829 So that's kind of my main piece. And then just 386 00:21:51.869 --> 00:21:54.460 to what I said off the top, There comes a 387 00:21:54.519 --> 00:21:56.640 problem with our mental health stuff where all of a 388 00:21:56.660 --> 00:21:58.799 sudden we realize we're in a really deep chronic loop 389 00:21:58.839 --> 00:22:01.319 around something. And that might be a time when you 390 00:22:01.339 --> 00:22:03.240 may need to get a little bit of extra support. 391 00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:05.329 You know, you don't feel necessarily resourced in and of 392 00:22:05.369 --> 00:22:08.390 yourself to do it. To have someone else to talk 393 00:22:08.410 --> 00:22:10.289 to about it, someone else who has a framework around 394 00:22:10.349 --> 00:22:13.230 working with it. So I've seen in the past a 395 00:22:13.269 --> 00:22:16.839 trauma specialist when I realized that some of my chronic 396 00:22:17.019 --> 00:22:19.539 stuff was related to things that happened before. from when 397 00:22:19.579 --> 00:22:21.839 I was younger and related to injuries or things like that. 398 00:22:21.859 --> 00:22:24.519 And I've worked with specialists to help work out some 399 00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:26.700 of that stuff. So people should just know that's an option. 400 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:28.900 And that's also, it may happen in your life that 401 00:22:28.920 --> 00:22:30.960 you'll get to a point where you realize, okay, I 402 00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:33.039 need to actually do something a little stronger than just 403 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:35.279 sitting and opening to this experience and meditation. 404 00:22:35.980 --> 00:22:39.319 I hear also in that question, you know, a question 405 00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:43.069 about what's affecting our mind states and our moods. And 406 00:22:43.309 --> 00:22:47.569 you mentioned news and just taking information and also isolation. 407 00:22:48.230 --> 00:22:50.670 And our practice is really, as I often say, we're 408 00:22:50.690 --> 00:22:54.710 not practicing to become good meditators. We're bringing this capacity 409 00:22:54.809 --> 00:22:58.359 for having more awareness in our lives and more kindness 410 00:22:58.390 --> 00:23:03.480 and clarity into our daily habits and what's affecting us. 411 00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:07.440 And I've noticed that with the increase of intake of 412 00:23:07.539 --> 00:23:11.900 news or social media, my moods are wildly affected by that. 413 00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:15.779 And the same goes with contact with others, who I'm 414 00:23:15.799 --> 00:23:18.789 in contact with, what kind of conversations I'm having. So 415 00:23:18.829 --> 00:23:22.069 you might want to bring your practice, your awareness to 416 00:23:22.869 --> 00:23:25.589 what is affecting your mood and what might need to 417 00:23:25.650 --> 00:23:30.059 be mitigated or even eliminated in order to help support 418 00:23:30.119 --> 00:23:30.819 your well-being. 419 00:23:31.420 --> 00:23:34.779 We talk a lot in The Challenge about

powerful emotions 420 00:23:35.779 --> 00:23:40.799 and how to handle them from a meditative stance. So 421 00:23:40.839 --> 00:23:43.039 let me just play up a little clip of me 422 00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:47.240 and you talking, Seb, about this very issue. Today, we 423 00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:50.519 want to talk about emotions, not for many men, at least, 424 00:23:50.700 --> 00:23:54.480 myself included. Emotions isn't the most attractive subject, but here's 425 00:23:54.500 --> 00:23:58.660 the deal. Emotions are non-negotiable. They're there no matter what. 426 00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:02.599 And if you pretend they're not there, they're going to 427 00:24:02.700 --> 00:24:06.319 own you and drive you blindly. So I think there 428 00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:07.460 are traditionally we. 429 00:24:09.160 --> 00:24:13.000 We either fight or feed or try to numb out 430 00:24:13.099 --> 00:24:15.480 in the face of powerful emotions. But meditation provides an 431 00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:17.859 interesting alternative. Can you say a little bit more about that? 432 00:24:18.740 --> 00:24:23.579 Yeah, the power of mindfulness is in this practice and 433 00:24:23.619 --> 00:24:28.309 building this capacity to be with our experience, to pay attention, 434 00:24:28.710 --> 00:24:31.750 but also to meet it with kindness or at least 435 00:24:31.829 --> 00:24:34.390 not with judgment. But so often when we feel a 436 00:24:34.410 --> 00:24:37.660 strong emotion, especially something we don't want to feel, We 437 00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:39.700 judge it. We try and control it. We try and 438 00:24:39.740 --> 00:24:41.769 push it away. Like you said, we might grab it 439 00:24:41.890 --> 00:24:46.289 and indulge it. And that actually leads to more tension. 440 00:24:46.329 --> 00:24:50.690 It leads to the perpetuation of these emotions. Mindfulness offers 441 00:24:50.769 --> 00:24:53.950 us a U-turn to actually just be with an emotion. 442 00:24:54.519 --> 00:24:58.440 And kind of magically, paradoxically, in that process, we're able 443 00:24:58.519 --> 00:25:02.339 to allow the emotion to release and sometimes to even resolve. 444 00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:06.009 That's another clip from me and Seb chatting in my kitchen. 445 00:25:06.839 --> 00:25:09.380 that clip will be one of many, many clips that 446 00:25:09.400 --> 00:25:12.019 you'll get if you take the Summer Sanity Challenge. And 447 00:25:12.039 --> 00:25:15.039 it actually leads into a great meditation on emotions from 448 00:25:15.180 --> 00:25:18.940 Joseph Goldstein called It's Okay to Feel This. Much more 449 00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:21.480 of my conversation with Seb and Jeff right after this. 450 00:25:26.220 --> 00:25:30.049 We got a question about strong emotions sent in via 451 00:25:30.089 --> 00:25:32.869 voicemail to us. So let's play that and we'll hear 452 00:25:32.890 --> 00:25:34.390 from Jeff and Seb on the back end. 453 00:25:35.150 --> 00:25:37.880 One of the questions I have It has to do

454 00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:43.640 with how you deal with strong emotions coming up for 455 00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:47.369 things you might not have dealt with. So let's say, 456 00:25:47.650 --> 00:25:51.329 in my case, the death of a parent that, you know, 457 00:25:51.450 --> 00:25:54.529 still brings me a lot of grief. And when I'm meditating, 458 00:25:54.589 --> 00:25:58.599 sometimes I feel a deep well of sadness coming up. 459 00:25:59.099 --> 00:26:00.859 And I wonder sometimes. 460 00:26:00.519 --> 00:26:04.920 If the act of sort of saying, oh, you know, 461 00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:08.019 I recognize the sadness and sort of, you know, sending 462 00:26:08.059 --> 00:26:11.940 it on its way is also kind of not dealing 463 00:26:11.980 --> 00:26:12.259 with it. 464 00:26:12.549 --> 00:26:14.549 And I wonder where you and. 465 00:26:14.430 --> 00:26:16.109 The other thinkers. 466 00:26:15.650 --> 00:26:17.769 Come down on this matter. 467 00:26:18.789 --> 00:26:20.589 Seb, this is such an interesting question, because I think 468 00:26:20.609 --> 00:26:24.210 a lot of people struggle with the difference between letting 469 00:26:24.309 --> 00:26:25.529 go and dissociation. 470 00:26:27.410 --> 00:26:32.039 Yes. And sometimes we can use our practice to cut 471 00:26:32.079 --> 00:26:36.599 ourselves off from feeling, which is not the point. And hopefully, 472 00:26:36.619 --> 00:26:41.099 you know, with continued awareness, we can start to remedy 473 00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:44.549 that tendency, which many of us have, especially in this culture. 474 00:26:45.390 --> 00:26:49.230 And grief is a tough one because we don't have 475 00:26:49.509 --> 00:26:53.529 sort of a lot of healthy avenues for releasing grief. 476 00:26:54.410 --> 00:26:58.589 Our practice can be a place as this listener is describing, 477 00:26:58.829 --> 00:27:01.630 to start to allow those strong emotions of grief. And 478 00:27:01.650 --> 00:27:04.730 there are great practices in the app and in the 479 00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:08.579 challenge for working with difficult emotions, different techniques that you 480 00:27:08.619 --> 00:27:12.519 can use to start to recognize and allow and also 481 00:27:12.539 --> 00:27:16.839 get kind of deeper underneath what's actually going on for us. 482 00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:21.380 And again, this practice helps us bring our awareness into 483 00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:25.079 daily life. And sometimes we need to process grief in 484 00:27:25.240 --> 00:27:30.109 very particular ways. We need Therapeutic processes, we might need 485 00:27:30.740 --> 00:27:34.509 more kind of community ritual processes. Grief is very complex. 486 00:27:34.710 --> 00:27:37.109 And so to try and resolve it all on the 487 00:27:37.170 --> 00:27:39.910 cushion or in our formal practice, I think is putting 488 00:27:40.009 --> 00:27:41.130 too much pressure on it. 489 00:27:41.789 --> 00:27:45.890 So let's go to the practical now, lighten things up 490 00:27:45.930 --> 00:27:49.180 just slightly. There's a very practical question that was sent 491 00:27:49.319 --> 00:27:51.900 in from a listener named Julie. 492 00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:53.259 Here we go with that. 493 00:27:54.339 --> 00:27:57.839 I am new to this world of 10% happier. So 494 00:27:58.539 --> 00:28:05.480 my question is, are guided meditations inferior to meditations that 495 00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:09.789 are not guided? I have some judgment I have discovered 496 00:28:10.329 --> 00:28:15.289 that guided meditations aren't real meditations. So I'd love to 497 00:28:15.329 --> 00:28:16.470 get your opinion. 498 00:28:17.369 --> 00:28:21.420 All right, so guided meditations, you should take whatever... Any 499 00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:24.289 of us says with a grain of salt, because we 500 00:28:24.450 --> 00:28:27.190 are all involved with a guided meditation app. 501 00:28:27.809 --> 00:28:30.750 Welcome, first of all, to the world of inferior meditation guidance. 502 00:28:32.529 --> 00:28:34.049 Inferior meditations more generally. 503 00:28:34.069 --> 00:28:36.640 Yeah. 504 00:28:36.799 --> 00:28:40.380 So, I mean, I think it's they're both great. You know, 505 00:28:40.400 --> 00:28:42.380 it's sort of apples and oranges. They're both slightly different. 506 00:28:42.839 --> 00:28:47.059 They both have advantages and they both can have disadvantages sometimes. 507 00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:48.660 So I think it's useful to be able to have 508 00:28:48.680 --> 00:28:52.710 a facility in both. The great thing about a guided 509 00:28:52.769 --> 00:28:56.869 practice is sometimes it can, first of all, not all 510 00:28:56.910 --> 00:28:59.009 guided practices are the same. We explore all kinds of 511 00:28:59.069 --> 00:29:02.609 different themes and different techniques and sort of approaches and 512 00:29:03.049 --> 00:29:05.750 a guided practice that has some structure can help you 513 00:29:05.950 --> 00:29:07.849 orient to things you may not do on your own 514 00:29:07.930 --> 00:29:10.490 that you may not ever think to notice. And on 515 00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:12.460 top of it, it can be a kind of it 516 00:29:12.539 --> 00:29:16.799 creates a structure that allows you to, that prevents you 517 00:29:16.819 --> 00:29:18.859 from wandering more than you might wander on your own. 518 00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:21.000 I don't know if you're me and I'm meditating on 519 00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:23.740 my own. God knows where my mind goes sometimes. So 520 00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:26.069 there's a lot of reasons for doing a guided practice. 521 00:29:26.900 --> 00:29:29.710 On the other hand, it's also useful to know how 522 00:29:29.849 --> 00:29:31.829 to just sit on your own and not have to 523 00:29:31.869 --> 00:29:34.109 depend on it because the whole point of meditation is 524 00:29:34.150 --> 00:29:37.450 eventually it becomes a set of skills that bleeds out 525 00:29:37.490 --> 00:29:40.089 into every part of your life. And so it,

is 526 00:29:40.650 --> 00:29:43.119 to know how meditation is working, to know how to 527 00:29:43.519 --> 00:29:46.480 make the necessary corrections in your own mind and body 528 00:29:47.220 --> 00:29:49.660 on your own and then out in life is a very, 529 00:29:49.700 --> 00:29:52.799 very useful skill. And the guided practice can help teach 530 00:29:52.819 --> 00:29:55.299 you that. And the practicing on your own can be 531 00:29:55.339 --> 00:29:57.940 a forum where you're also exploring that. So that's my 532 00:29:58.480 --> 00:29:59.670 rather elaborate answer. 533 00:29:59.970 --> 00:30:00.750 They're both fine. 534 00:30:02.210 --> 00:30:07.269 Well, someone who did all of the challenge meditations in 535 00:30:07.329 --> 00:30:11.769 preparation for our shoot the other day, Dan, I was 536 00:30:12.210 --> 00:30:17.000 just absolutely amazed at the power of these meditations. I 537 00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:20.259 don't often listen to guided meditations. I do sometimes in 538 00:30:20.279 --> 00:30:23.700 the 10% half because they're such great teachers, but it 539 00:30:23.740 --> 00:30:26.579 was really amazing for about a week. I only did 540 00:30:26.619 --> 00:30:29.910 guided meditations. I even listened to my own, which is 541 00:30:30.369 --> 00:30:33.809 really weird. It's just so bizarre to listen to your 542 00:30:33.890 --> 00:30:37.150 own voice guiding you. And it's, it's humbling and kind 543 00:30:37.190 --> 00:30:40.710 of horrible. But it really was sort of a different 544 00:30:40.789 --> 00:30:45.990 practice to really attentively listen to the guidance and allow 545 00:30:46.049 --> 00:30:48.750 it to take me somewhere. Because we can get stuck 546 00:30:48.789 --> 00:30:51.809 in ruts when we are just kind of doing our 547 00:30:51.869 --> 00:30:53.609 own practice over and over again. 548 00:30:53.630 --> 00:30:57.839 Yeah, it's really humbling for me because I started meditating 549 00:30:57.880 --> 00:31:00.880 before there were apps, as we all did, because we're 550 00:31:00.900 --> 00:31:04.759 all old. And I had in my mind this kind 551 00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:09.400 of inferior, superior dialectic, which are false binary, but every 552 00:31:09.460 --> 00:31:12.710 time I do a guided meditation, or if I'm in 553 00:31:12.750 --> 00:31:15.369 the room with one of you and actually hearing it live, 554 00:31:15.890 --> 00:31:19.450 I remember how much I've forgotten. And it's so useful 555 00:31:19.509 --> 00:31:22.569 to get these reminders for somebody who's traveled the path 556 00:31:22.609 --> 00:31:26.710 more than you have. So there's another super practical question 557 00:31:27.049 --> 00:31:31.490 that resonated with me. As a meditative striver, that's often 558 00:31:31.509 --> 00:31:34.289 to my own detriment, this question comes via voicemail. 559 00:31:34.309 --> 00:31:35.130 So let's play this one. 560 00:31:36.009 --> 00:31:39.170 So oftentimes when I meditate, regardless of the length of time, 561 00:31:39.789 --> 00:31:42.170 I feel like it wasn't long enough. So I find 562 00:31:42.230 --> 00:31:47.200 myself avoiding meditation altogether just to avoid that seemingly inevitable frustration. 563 00:31:47.220 --> 00:31:50.019 So my question is, if you guys ever suffer from 564 00:31:50.059 --> 00:31:52.400 this problem, what are some tips you might have on 565 00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:53.039 dealing with it? 566 00:31:53.480 --> 00:31:53.720 Thanks. 567 00:31:54.980 --> 00:31:58.200 Like I said, a striving question, which I deeply relate to. 568 00:31:58.259 --> 00:31:59.400 So Seb, what's your take? 569 00:32:00.279 --> 00:32:05.519 This is something that I think is very cultural too. So, 570 00:32:05.799 --> 00:32:09.259 you know, I'm very interested in how we show up 571 00:32:09.319 --> 00:32:12.799 as cultural beings to our practice. And it's one of 572 00:32:12.859 --> 00:32:16.769 the reasons actually I do lying down meditation because I, 573 00:32:17.119 --> 00:32:19.319 in an early retreat of mine, I noticed that I 574 00:32:19.339 --> 00:32:22.349 was leaning forward in my practice, especially when I got 575 00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:25.170 really concentrated in And I think it was Tara Brock 576 00:32:25.190 --> 00:32:27.670 at the time, the teacher pointed out to me that 577 00:32:27.690 --> 00:32:31.210 I was trying to get somewhere, just physically that image 578 00:32:31.250 --> 00:32:35.619 of me kind of leaning in. And that is this culture. 579 00:32:35.890 --> 00:32:38.839 We are constantly trying to make something happen, trying to 580 00:32:38.940 --> 00:32:42.740 do something. And as Jeff so beautifully described, this practice 581 00:32:42.779 --> 00:32:46.460 is so much about doing nothing. So it's kind of 582 00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:49.950 built into our systems because of the way we've been 583 00:32:50.289 --> 00:32:56.289 conditioned and trained and So finding ways to continually and 584 00:32:56.450 --> 00:32:59.609 as a process over and over again, allow ourselves to release, 585 00:32:59.670 --> 00:33:05.430 to relax, to let go. And we need to understand ourselves. 586 00:33:05.549 --> 00:33:09.589 You know, there's that metaphor of practice being like tuning 587 00:33:09.829 --> 00:33:12.450 an instrument, a stringed instrument. So if you've ever tuned 588 00:33:12.529 --> 00:33:15.970 a violin or guitar, if it's too tight, it's going 589 00:33:16.009 --> 00:33:17.509 to snap and it's going to give you a really 590 00:33:17.569 --> 00:33:21.079 sharp note. but we also don't want to get too loose, right? 591 00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:24.950 And so we have to constantly be in that process 592 00:33:24.990 --> 00:33:27.170 of balancing. And we talk a lot about this in 593 00:33:27.190 --> 00:33:30.369 the challenge, you and I, Dan, of what is balancing 594 00:33:30.410 --> 00:33:31.109 in the practice. 595 00:33:31.349 --> 00:33:32.910 I can relate too. 596 00:33:33.609 --> 00:33:37.210 Sometimes it's helpful when

I'm in a similar experience, which 597 00:33:37.329 --> 00:33:39.960 I have, and certainly when I was younger, I think 598 00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:43.329 about the skills-based approach to practice that You know, just 599 00:33:43.369 --> 00:33:46.150 the act of sitting and trying to open to experience, 600 00:33:46.509 --> 00:33:49.470 that's building up this equanimity muscle, trying to be aware 601 00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:52.579 and notice what's happening. That's building up my clarity, trying 602 00:33:52.619 --> 00:33:55.359 to stay on track, mind wandering, coming back. That's building 603 00:33:55.400 --> 00:33:58.460 up concentration. And that's building up regardless of what's happening 604 00:33:58.500 --> 00:34:00.940 in the sit and regardless of how long or short 605 00:34:01.480 --> 00:34:04.779 I sit. So to know that the meditation is, quote, working, 606 00:34:05.259 --> 00:34:07.920 even in these short meditations, even in meditations that don't 607 00:34:08.139 --> 00:34:10.840 feel like they're maybe as settling or as comfortable as 608 00:34:10.889 --> 00:34:13.760 you would want them to. is that kind of takes 609 00:34:13.820 --> 00:34:16.559 care of that whole question in a way. You recognize 610 00:34:16.579 --> 00:34:19.280 that every meditation is progress in a sense, if you 611 00:34:19.320 --> 00:34:20.480 want that progress model. 612 00:34:21.739 --> 00:34:24.539 Okay, but Jeff, just to play devil's advocate here, this 613 00:34:24.599 --> 00:34:27.590 episode is designed to encourage people to do the challenge, 614 00:34:27.639 --> 00:34:30.929 but can't a challenge, I mean, the very word challenge, 615 00:34:31.530 --> 00:34:33.809 isn't that, you know, sort of catnip for the striving 616 00:34:33.869 --> 00:34:37.510 mind and So how do we handle doing a 21 617 00:34:37.510 --> 00:34:39.820 day challenge without having that drive us crazy? You know, 618 00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:42.480 I got to do every one of these 21 days 619 00:34:42.539 --> 00:34:44.579 and I need to do X number of minutes, et cetera, 620 00:34:44.599 --> 00:34:46.460 et cetera. What are your thoughts on how to work 621 00:34:46.480 --> 00:34:47.360 with that kind of thinking? 622 00:34:48.179 --> 00:34:50.619 Well, I just think of what Seb already said, you know, 623 00:34:50.659 --> 00:34:53.139 about getting that right, having that balance. It's all about 624 00:34:53.829 --> 00:34:56.869 using the impetus and the structure of the challenge to 625 00:34:56.909 --> 00:34:58.929 try to do it and having an intention around that 626 00:34:59.010 --> 00:35:01.829 and using some of that energy. And that's terrific. And 627 00:35:02.170 --> 00:35:05.190 it can be a great goad and impetus. But on 628 00:35:05.210 --> 00:35:07.519 the other hand, having a kind of relaxed attitude about it. 629 00:35:07.710 --> 00:35:09.179 It may well happen that you'll have a day or 630 00:35:09.199 --> 00:35:10.780 two that you'll miss and you don't want to get 631 00:35:10.820 --> 00:35:12.559 so bent out of shape on it. So you kind 632 00:35:12.579 --> 00:35:14.699 of need to have perspective around it as well. So 633 00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:16.980 use the good of it and try to notice when 634 00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:19.219 you're slipping into the bad of it, I guess is 635 00:35:19.380 --> 00:35:19.880 what I'm saying. 636 00:35:20.960 --> 00:35:24.929 Let's cue up a listener voicemail along those lines. 637 00:35:25.050 --> 00:35:25.469 Here it is. 638 00:35:26.329 --> 00:35:28.809 So I have two questions for you. The first is 639 00:35:28.829 --> 00:35:31.809 a basic one, which is that whenever I try to 640 00:35:31.889 --> 00:35:35.050 notice my breath, you know, during the meditations, What I 641 00:35:35.070 --> 00:35:38.889 realized is that the act of noticing seemed to be 642 00:35:39.070 --> 00:35:42.699 controlling the pace and the depth of the breath. So 643 00:35:42.739 --> 00:35:45.719 I wonder if you have any advice for getting out 644 00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:49.619 of that breath controlling mode. I also have a second question, 645 00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:53.360 which is that one of my favorite meditations from Jeff 646 00:35:53.480 --> 00:35:56.119 is one called Centerness, in which you teach one of 647 00:35:56.139 --> 00:35:58.699 the techniques is to breathe into the belly as a 648 00:35:58.739 --> 00:36:01.909 way of centering oneself. But whenever I try this, I 649 00:36:02.150 --> 00:36:04.739 just feel like so much more breath, like air is 650 00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:07.980 in the chest area. And it's almost like the cylindrical 651 00:36:08.079 --> 00:36:10.559 shape where not very much air ends up in the 652 00:36:10.619 --> 00:36:14.039 belly at all. So I was wondering whether either of 653 00:36:14.119 --> 00:36:17.650 you could, you know, comment a bit on the belly 654 00:36:17.690 --> 00:36:18.489 breathing technique. 655 00:36:19.929 --> 00:36:23.250 So Jeff, there's so much here. There are the questions 656 00:36:23.369 --> 00:36:26.309 that She asked, and then there's also the fact that 657 00:36:26.329 --> 00:36:28.530 for some people, the breath is just super triggering because 658 00:36:28.610 --> 00:36:31.900 COVID has pulmonary implications and because some of the final 659 00:36:31.940 --> 00:36:35.679 words of George Floyd were, I can't breathe. So can 660 00:36:35.719 --> 00:36:38.960 you just talk about all of this trickiness when it 661 00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:39.699 comes to the breath? 662 00:36:40.480 --> 00:36:41.780 Yeah. 663 00:36:41.820 --> 00:36:44.130 Yeah, I mean, maybe in response to what you just said, 664 00:36:44.190 --> 00:36:48.010 the most important thing here is that if the breath 665 00:36:48.110 --> 00:36:50.449 is triggering, you don't need to work with the breath. 666 00:36:51.059 --> 00:36:52.659 You can work with a different object. 667 00:36:52.699 --> 00:36:54.519 You can work with sound, you can work with the 668 00:36:54.559 --> 00:36:57.199

feeling in the hands or the sense. 669 00:36:56.960 --> 00:37:00.389 Of the whole posture sitting. And it's actually pretty normal. 670 00:37:00.869 --> 00:37:04.309 I've found probably over the years that maybe even a 671 00:37:04.369 --> 00:37:07.789 quarter of people that I meet who meditate find there's 672 00:37:07.829 --> 00:37:10.110 some kind of challenge around working with the breath. So 673 00:37:10.150 --> 00:37:12.840 it's fairly common. It's mixed in with trauma, actually. Our 674 00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:14.340 traumatic responses are all mixed. 675 00:37:14.199 --> 00:37:14.780 In with our breath. 676 00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:17.199 So to know that you don't need to necessarily go 677 00:37:17.260 --> 00:37:20.469 there is maybe the place to start. And then I 678 00:37:20.489 --> 00:37:22.960 can unpack a little more about the breath like that. 679 00:37:23.739 --> 00:37:26.280 So that question is it's a great question in the 680 00:37:26.420 --> 00:37:29.599 first part of it. The thing about controlling the breath, 681 00:37:30.039 --> 00:37:30.860 that's actually. 682 00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:31.409 Very common, too. 683 00:37:31.489 --> 00:37:34.909 I hear that a lot where people find that the 684 00:37:35.110 --> 00:37:38.250 act of noticing is sort of entraining the breath itself. 685 00:37:38.829 --> 00:37:41.449 And it's actually a stage in practice. It's so common. 686 00:37:42.230 --> 00:37:44.280 And at least some practitioners talk about it as a stage. 687 00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:46.800 So I would say the issue thing there is don't 688 00:37:46.820 --> 00:37:50.340 make it a problem. If that's happening, fine. Just don't 689 00:37:50.380 --> 00:37:52.900 worry about it. Just observe the breath and observe yourself 690 00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:55.320 controlling it, like without an attitude of it being a 691 00:37:55.340 --> 00:37:58.489 big deal. And that can often sort of start to 692 00:37:58.530 --> 00:38:00.630 get a couple of things can happen there. Sometimes it 693 00:38:00.650 --> 00:38:02.690 can just sort of work itself out. If you don't 694 00:38:02.789 --> 00:38:04.849 make a big deal out of the controlling, the controlling 695 00:38:04.929 --> 00:38:07.909 this kind of falls away. But the other thing that 696 00:38:07.929 --> 00:38:10.789 can happen is you can start to actually see where 697 00:38:11.090 --> 00:38:15.289 you are coupling with the breath, where your desire to 698 00:38:15.409 --> 00:38:18.969 change or to anticipating, whatever it is, whatever that's gumming 699 00:38:19.010 --> 00:38:21.110 your attention up on your breath, you can start to 700 00:38:21.190 --> 00:38:23.510 see more clearly where that's happening. And then you can 701 00:38:23.849 --> 00:38:27.269 get a genuine insight, which is, wow, I'm interfering with 702 00:38:27.309 --> 00:38:29.489 this process. And if I bring my attention and my 703 00:38:29.530 --> 00:38:32.190 equanimity and my patience to this, there can be a 704 00:38:32.210 --> 00:38:34.769 kind of release that can end up being quite significant. 705 00:38:34.869 --> 00:38:38.699 So it's an opportunity there as well. And then I 706 00:38:38.760 --> 00:38:41.559 guess I would just say to the second part, that's 707 00:38:41.800 --> 00:38:44.500 also very common when we start to bring our attention 708 00:38:44.739 --> 00:38:47.920 into what is the experience of breathing in the body, 709 00:38:48.380 --> 00:38:52.079 we can start to notice where there is actually some constriction, 710 00:38:52.500 --> 00:38:55.900 that it doesn't feel like there's this full, natural, easeful 711 00:38:55.960 --> 00:38:58.500 breath that we maybe it's more easy to breathe into 712 00:38:58.539 --> 00:39:01.159 the chest, or maybe it's more easy to breathe into 713 00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:03.969 the belly or the sides. And Some of our patterns 714 00:39:04.030 --> 00:39:07.429 of kind of trauma and challenge are trapped in the 715 00:39:07.489 --> 00:39:10.570 way we breathe. So we may be a high breath breather, 716 00:39:10.610 --> 00:39:13.539 for example, and we may be someone who has quite 717 00:39:13.559 --> 00:39:15.679 a bit of anxiety. We notice we're always breathing in 718 00:39:15.699 --> 00:39:18.639 the upper chest. There's a relationship there. So as you 719 00:39:18.699 --> 00:39:21.420 begin to open up the breath capacity and start to 720 00:39:21.460 --> 00:39:24.409 breathe more deliberately into the belly, then you can actually 721 00:39:24.449 --> 00:39:28.869 begin to address that anxiety. And it just unfolds from there. 722 00:39:28.949 --> 00:39:33.539 So it's a really rich... exploration. There's a lot to explore. 723 00:39:34.179 --> 00:39:37.380 One thing that's helped me to bring more relaxation to 724 00:39:37.400 --> 00:39:40.179 the body in general and also to the breath is 725 00:39:40.239 --> 00:39:43.679 to lie down during meditation. So when I'm lying down, 726 00:39:43.750 --> 00:39:48.630 there's no... It's very hard to have constriction in the body. 727 00:39:49.030 --> 00:39:52.170 Often when we're sitting up, there's some tension being held, 728 00:39:52.449 --> 00:39:54.409 even in just trying to sit upright, because we know 729 00:39:54.449 --> 00:39:56.590 that we're supposed to sit straight upright when we're meditating. 730 00:39:56.630 --> 00:39:59.550 And so that can even add tension. So you might 731 00:39:59.570 --> 00:40:00.230 want to try that. 732 00:40:00.630 --> 00:40:03.550 Well said. And Jeff, do you have anything you want 733 00:40:03.570 --> 00:40:04.530 to add before we close? 734 00:40:04.550 --> 00:40:09.260 Well, I just feel like Sebany said it so beautifully. 735 00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:11.360 I would just, maybe the only thing to add is 736 00:40:11.380 --> 00:40:15.460 just the self-compassion piece, the compassion and the self-compassion. And 737 00:40:15.500 --> 00:40:19.039 then the ways we generate that compassion. We generate it 738 00:40:19.119 -->

00:40:22.739 from meditation. We also generate it from reading, reading narratives, learning, 739 00:40:22.820 --> 00:40:25.099 hearing people's stories. I feel like this has been such 740 00:40:25.119 --> 00:40:28.039 an amazing time for education. Just like the number of 741 00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:31.239 books I read on this subject now, it's just expanded 742 00:40:31.300 --> 00:40:33.940 my learning in such a huge way. And that's a 743 00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:39.199 great way to also expand your insight and expand your compassion. 744 00:40:39.989 --> 00:40:43.550 And for myself, I need to remember when I come 745 00:40:43.610 --> 00:40:47.409 up against... what seem like these biases. And when I 746 00:40:47.449 --> 00:40:50.110 hear these happening all around me, I need to remember 747 00:40:50.150 --> 00:40:54.969 this very core, I guess, practice understanding, which is that 748 00:40:55.530 --> 00:41:00.650 we're brilliance obscured by ignorance and that there's this something 749 00:41:00.690 --> 00:41:04.849 indelible and dignified and beautiful in everyone. And I just 750 00:41:04.969 --> 00:41:09.070 think that that has to be there alongside with the clarity. 751 00:41:09.510 --> 00:41:14.030 There has to be that deeply compassionate understanding. So James 752 00:41:14.090 --> 00:41:18.570 Baldwin had this amazing line and he said, quote, every 753 00:41:18.630 --> 00:41:22.769 human being is an unprecedented miracle. One tries to treat 754 00:41:22.809 --> 00:41:25.739 them as the miracles they are while trying to protect 755 00:41:25.800 --> 00:41:30.760 oneself against the disasters they've become. So that double edge 756 00:41:31.139 --> 00:41:34.860 of the simultaneously being able to entertain, understand that there 757 00:41:34.920 --> 00:41:37.980 is this beautiful thing about being human. And then there's 758 00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:42.489 this very real thing that happens in our conditioning and 759 00:41:42.530 --> 00:41:47.090 that we're never, the job of seeing into that on 760 00:41:47.110 --> 00:41:49.400 an individual level and on a cultural level is never over. 761 00:41:50.300 --> 00:41:51.840 Incredible way to close this. 762 00:41:53.380 --> 00:41:53.619 Yes. 763 00:41:54.659 --> 00:41:57.480 Reminds me of the Tibetan phrase for enlightenment that I'm 764 00:41:57.500 --> 00:42:00.000 always quoting on this show, which is, I think it 765 00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:03.659 roughly translates into a clearing away and a bringing forth. 766 00:42:05.159 --> 00:42:08.159 Many ways of saying the same thing, I think. Seb 767 00:42:08.179 --> 00:42:10.820 and Jeff, thank you for your wisdom, your nerdiness, and 768 00:42:10.840 --> 00:42:12.449 your patience. Really appreciate it. 769 00:42:12.969 --> 00:42:14.530 Thank you both. It's been great. 770 00:42:14.989 --> 00:42:16.349 I would love to do this every week. 771 00:42:18.829 --> 00:42:23.639 Be careful what you wish for. Big thanks again to 772 00:42:23.679 --> 00:42:26.340 Seb and to Jeff. Really appreciate their time. 773 00:42:27.099 --> 00:42:28.820 And don't forget to sign up for the challenge. You 774 00:42:28.860 --> 00:42:31.969 can follow the links in the show notes here. And 775 00:42:32.119 --> 00:42:34.469 it starts on July 27th. It goes for 21 days. 776 00:42:34.510 --> 00:42:37.090 We spent a lot of time. And by we, I 777 00:42:37.130 --> 00:42:41.679 mean people not named Dan Harris. within the 10% Happier Company, 778 00:42:42.070 --> 00:42:47.849 spent a lot of time carefully curating the guided meditations 779 00:42:47.989 --> 00:42:52.530 so that it follows a really thoughtful and logical arc, 780 00:42:53.170 --> 00:42:56.400 fully designed to help you boot up, or as I said, 781 00:42:56.579 --> 00:43:00.099 reestablish or reinvigorate your practice, and really help you to 782 00:43:00.539 --> 00:43:05.139 create the skills, the resilience, the calm, the compassion you 783 00:43:05.239 --> 00:43:09.280 need to handle these difficult times in the best way possible. 784 00:43:10.900 --> 00:43:13.630 I want to thank the team who worked so hard 785 00:43:13.690 --> 00:43:17.050 to put this show together. Samuel Johns is our senior producer. 786 00:43:17.110 --> 00:43:20.150 Marissa Schneiderman is our producer. Our sound designers are Matt 787 00:43:20.210 --> 00:43:23.210 Boynton and Anya Shashik of Ultraviolet Audio. 788 00:43:23.679 --> 00:43:25.559 Maria Wartell is our production coordinator. 789 00:43:26.139 --> 00:43:29.800 We get an enormous amount of input from TPH comrades 790 00:43:29.880 --> 00:43:33.139 such as Jen Poyant, Nate Tobey, Ben Rubin, Liz Levin. 791 00:43:33.739 --> 00:43:35.909 And finally, as always, big thank you to Ryan Kessler 792 00:43:35.949 --> 00:43:38.289 and Josh Kohan from ABC News. We'll see you on 793 00:43:38.349 --> 00:43:40.070 Wednesday for a fresh episode.