Full Transcript for Longevity Science Without the Fear or Bullshit | Dr. Kerry Burnight

face of change, the key question to ask yourself 36 00:02:07.299 --> 00:02:08.939 if you want to live a longer and happier life, 37 00:02:09.379 --> 00:02:12.620 the strengths that come with age, some tools for navigating 38 00:02:12.840 --> 00:02:16.509 inevitable psychological dips, and much more. If you want to 39 00:02:16.530 --> 00:02:19.750 go deeper on how to make peace with the non-negotiable 40 00:02:19.789 --> 00:02:22.889 fact of change, we have a new meditation that comes 41 00:02:22.990 --> 00:02:25.169 with this podcast. It comes from our teacher of the month, 42 00:02:25.229 --> 00:02:28.180 Christiana Wolff. You should go check it out. Also to say, 43 00:02:28.219 --> 00:02:31.569 Cristiano will be leading our next live meditation and Q 44 00:02:31.569 --> 00:02:34.750 & A session tomorrow, Tuesday, November 18th at 4 Eastern. 45 00:02:34.770 --> 00:02:37.710 We do these every Tuesday at 4. Reminder, we're now 46 00:02:37.750 --> 00:02:40.930 doing these on Zoom instead of Substack. If you sign 47 00:02:40.949 --> 00:02:44.569 up at danharris.com, you'll get access to our twice-weekly meditation 48 00:02:44.610 --> 00:02:47.280 drops and once-weekly live meditation sessions. 49 00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:47.930 Go sign up. 50 00:02:48.939 --> 00:02:50.620 Finally, if you want to meditate with me in person, 51 00:02:50.659 --> 00:02:52.539 I've got two events coming up. I'll be doing a 52 00:02:52.580 --> 00:02:57.360 live taping of this podcast in New York City. November 18th, 53 00:02:57.439 --> 00:02:59.659 it's going to be a conversation with the comedian Pete Holmes, 54 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:01.909 who's not only very funny, but he's got a long 55 00:03:02.030 --> 00:03:05.069 and deep spiritual practice. This event will be a benefit 56 00:03:05.110 --> 00:03:07.969 for the New York Insight Meditation Center. And then coming 57 00:03:07.990 --> 00:03:11.330 up on November 23rd, I'll do an intimate little meditation 58 00:03:11.370 --> 00:03:13.990 and Q & A sesh at a lovely little hotel 59 00:03:14.050 --> 00:03:17.009 in the Hudson Valley called Troutbeck. There are links to 60 00:03:17.110 --> 00:03:20.270 both events in the show notes. Okay, we'll get started 61 00:03:20.310 --> 00:03:22.009 with Dr. Carrie Burnight after this. 62 00:03:24.900 --> 00:03:25.159 Dr. 63 00:03:25.189 --> 00:03:26.819 Carrie Burnight. Welcome to the show. 64 00:03:27.210 --> 00:03:29.449 Thanks very much. Glad to be here. 65 00:03:29.849 --> 00:03:31.569 I'm glad you're here. Let me just start with a 66 00:03:31.590 --> 00:03:35.669 really basic question. I'm just curious, because I was raised 67 00:03:35.710 --> 00:03:38.490 by doctors and married to one. What was in your 68 00:03:38.530 --> 00:03:41.780 mind when you chose gerontology as your specialty? 69 00:03:41.969 --> 00:03:42.719 Why that? 70 00:03:43.460 --> 00:03:46.360 Right. Sometimes when I tell people I'm a gerontologist, their 71 00:03:46.400 --> 00:03:50.699 face kind of makes like

that, ugh, yuck face, or 72 00:03:50.719 --> 00:03:52.919 they make that, oh, poor you face. 73 00:03:53.360 --> 00:03:53.520 Yeah. 74 00:03:54.569 --> 00:03:58.870 I think that because I was, I call it a surprise. 75 00:03:58.969 --> 00:04:02.289 Some people might say mistake. In my parents' lives, they 76 00:04:02.330 --> 00:04:06.250 had these grown teenagers and then a surprise pregnancy that 77 00:04:06.289 --> 00:04:09.990 was me. And I came out, my dad already had 78 00:04:10.069 --> 00:04:12.750 gray hair. So I think it was just on my radar. 79 00:04:12.789 --> 00:04:16.610 When people would talk smack about older people, as we do, 80 00:04:16.629 --> 00:04:21.350 it felt personal. And when I realized that there was 81 00:04:21.389 --> 00:04:25.779 something called a gerontologist, somebody who worked with and learned 82 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:29.899 from older people, it really just felt like a fit. 83 00:04:30.860 --> 00:04:32.839 I love that story. That completely lands. 84 00:04:32.899 --> 00:04:34.860 And I'm starting to think about like my own son, 85 00:04:34.899 --> 00:04:37.180 who I was 43 when he was born. And he 86 00:04:37.240 --> 00:04:40.399 likes to point out the proliferation of grays on my pate. 87 00:04:41.079 --> 00:04:45.279 Just as an overarching question, as we move through this conversation, 88 00:04:46.339 --> 00:04:52.350 I read your material as not being just for senior citizens. 89 00:04:52.529 --> 00:04:55.509 I read this as something that It's content that I 90 00:04:55.550 --> 00:04:57.529 would have liked to have had in my 30s. 91 00:04:58.050 --> 00:04:58.930 How does that go down with you? 92 00:04:59.449 --> 00:05:02.930 Here's who it's for. It's for people who are aging. 93 00:05:03.949 --> 00:05:08.310 And who is aging? Every dang one of us. And 94 00:05:08.379 --> 00:05:12.720 if you're not, you are dead. So what we have 95 00:05:12.819 --> 00:05:17.720 found and what your podcast does every day is finding 96 00:05:17.819 --> 00:05:21.860 ways about living our best life. So things that help 97 00:05:21.920 --> 00:05:26.600 you do that between the ages of, say, 23 to 98 00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:30.660 24 also can hit between 93 and 94. So it 99 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:34.220 is truly never too early, but also never too late. 100 00:05:34.819 --> 00:05:35.920 There's a lot of good news here. 101 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:39.170 And there's one aspect of the good news I want 102 00:05:39.189 --> 00:05:40.709 to get you talking about in a second. But the 103 00:05:40.750 --> 00:05:43.170 first piece, the first aspect of the good news is 104 00:05:43.910 --> 00:05:45.069 if you're listening to this in your 20s or 30s 105 00:05:45.069 --> 00:05:49.379 or 40s or like me in your 50s, The good 106 00:05:49.420 --> 00:05:53.399 news is that the stuff you can do now to 107 00:05:53.459 --> 00:05:57.519 help you age well will just make you happier right 108 00:05:57.579 --> 00:05:58.360 now anyway. 109 00:05:59.139 -->

00:06:02.189 Correct. And so a lot of times people say, hey, 110 00:06:02.649 --> 00:06:05.589 when should I start this stuff? And I say, now 111 00:06:05.629 --> 00:06:09.029 think about it about with your body, for example. Would 112 00:06:09.050 --> 00:06:12.310 you ask me, well, when should I start cardio? It's 113 00:06:12.329 --> 00:06:15.959 like yesterday, right? Start as soon as you can. So 114 00:06:17.149 --> 00:06:21.949 I am very interested in what fortifies us internally for 115 00:06:22.430 --> 00:06:25.649 aging because it's not easy. And when people say, I 116 00:06:25.889 --> 00:06:30.019 just want to age gracefully, I say, I've watched thousands 117 00:06:30.060 --> 00:06:32.360 of people age and I have not ever seen one 118 00:06:32.540 --> 00:06:36.180 age gracefully. It's not a graceful thing. It's as hard 119 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:40.360 as heck. And a lot of things happen. And because 120 00:06:40.420 --> 00:06:45.209 of that, we want to fortify ourselves as much as possible. 121 00:06:45.329 --> 00:06:49.930 So it's the opposite of toxic positivity. It's the opposite 122 00:06:50.129 --> 00:06:53.230 of head in the sand. It's like, nah, we're in 123 00:06:53.329 --> 00:06:56.930 it for this whole time. And the end result is 124 00:06:57.209 --> 00:06:59.930 always the same. And that is that we are all 125 00:06:59.970 --> 00:07:03.569 going to die. And I don't think that's a bummer. 126 00:07:03.850 --> 00:07:06.110 I just think it's a fact. So why don't we 127 00:07:06.209 --> 00:07:10.709 try to live and use this bonus time rather than 128 00:07:12.170 --> 00:07:16.860 languish in the suffering and regret and misery of it, 129 00:07:16.930 --> 00:07:20.370 which I have seen for way too many years with 130 00:07:20.509 --> 00:07:21.670 people that I've worked with. 131 00:07:22.709 --> 00:07:25.269 Side note, it's interesting and hilarious for me as somebody 132 00:07:25.300 --> 00:07:27.540 who says fuck a lot to hear you say heck. 133 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:29.060 As much as you do. 134 00:07:30.740 --> 00:07:35.079 Well, give it a try. Okay. 135 00:07:35.100 --> 00:07:37.180 No, no, actually I will not. So I don't know 136 00:07:37.199 --> 00:07:40.000 why I said okay, because I don't mean that. Anyway, 137 00:07:40.360 --> 00:07:42.339 I agree with you and I appreciate your candor, but 138 00:07:42.379 --> 00:07:45.399 you just said that aging is not easy. It's not graceful. 139 00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:48.399 And yet one of your core arguments, and this is 140 00:07:48.610 --> 00:07:50.930 the second half of the good news thread that I 141 00:07:50.970 --> 00:07:53.310 was pulling on just a moment ago. One of your 142 00:07:53.350 --> 00:07:56.730 core arguments is that aging is something to celebrate, not 143 00:07:56.769 --> 00:07:59.810 to dread, that it's an opportunity. So how can all 144 00:07:59.850 --> 00:08:02.449 of those thoughts work together? 145 00:08:03.149 --> 00:08:11.509 Great question. OK, so our default thought process. myself included, 146 00:08:11.829 --> 00:08:16.680 is that aging is all decline. Everything about you and 147 00:08:17.420 --> 00:08:22.879 your life gets worse, less relevant, less attractive, less strong. 148 00:08:23.199 --> 00:08:27.019 And we believe it so much because it's our societal, 149 00:08:27.259 --> 00:08:30.879 like what we've come to believe, that the notion that 150 00:08:31.060 --> 00:08:33.980 actually there are things that get better as you get 151 00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:38.110 older isn't even on the radar screens. So when I 152 00:08:38.190 --> 00:08:42.389 say it's something to celebrate, it's because in the research 153 00:08:42.929 --> 00:08:46.169 and in watching thousands of people go through this phase 154 00:08:46.230 --> 00:08:51.179 ahead of us, I've seen reason to celebrate. You might 155 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:53.960 be wondering, like, what the heck gets better? Oh, what 156 00:08:53.980 --> 00:08:56.120 the fuck gets better as you get older? 157 00:08:56.139 --> 00:09:00.340 Thank you. I consider that to be a personal victory. 158 00:09:03.529 --> 00:09:07.100 So things that get better as you get older. are 159 00:09:07.620 --> 00:09:12.559 not caring as much what people think. Greater appreciation of friendship, 160 00:09:12.879 --> 00:09:19.620 more emotional regulation, less self-importance often, greater humility. My God, 161 00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:24.220 the world needs that. Appreciation of music and nature and 162 00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:28.490 not getting entrapped in as much in all the trappings 163 00:09:28.590 --> 00:09:32.710 of fame and self-importance. So yeah, there's a lot to 164 00:09:32.750 --> 00:09:36.259 look forward to, but we won't even know that if 165 00:09:36.360 --> 00:09:39.399 we don't pull our head out and stop with this 166 00:09:39.659 --> 00:09:42.700 fear-based anti-aging nonsense. 167 00:09:44.059 --> 00:09:45.340 I have a million things I want to follow up 168 00:09:45.460 --> 00:09:47.919 on in what you just said, which was awesome and 169 00:09:47.960 --> 00:09:51.490 super interesting. But the thought that just keeps going through 170 00:09:51.529 --> 00:09:55.190 my head is, I get that there are aspects of 171 00:09:55.250 --> 00:10:00.889 getting older that are worth celebrating and relishing. And I'm 172 00:10:00.929 --> 00:10:04.690 here for all that because I have no alternative. However, 173 00:10:04.710 --> 00:10:08.370 the end of the line is still death. And death 174 00:10:08.909 --> 00:10:11.990 usually is, you know, I say this to somebody who 175 00:10:12.009 --> 00:10:15.149 spent a non-trivial amount of time in a hospice. You know, 176 00:10:15.429 --> 00:10:18.240 there's some discomfort that comes with the process, if not, 177 00:10:18.279 --> 00:10:21.960 you know, agony. So I just bump against that hard 178 00:10:22.100 --> 00:10:24.509 fact when you talk about celebrating. 179 00:10:25.210 --> 00:10:27.990 Yes. And I love that we're

all thinking the same 180 00:10:28.070 --> 00:10:34.190 thing as we're listening. So here's the choice. Long life, 181 00:10:34.789 --> 00:10:41.940 hard stuff, and make it miserable. Long life, hard stuff, 182 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:47.889 find a way to make it less miserable. And That 183 00:10:47.980 --> 00:10:52.320 is a choice and that is possible. And I, because 184 00:10:52.700 --> 00:10:57.200 I don't love suffering and I'm not relishing misery, I'm 185 00:10:57.220 --> 00:10:59.820 going to do what I can to try to think 186 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:04.019 the result is the same. It's death. And how can 187 00:11:04.059 --> 00:11:08.480 we maximize this time that we have, given that I 188 00:11:08.620 --> 00:11:11.799 guarantee you there will be hard things, things you haven't 189 00:11:11.860 --> 00:11:15.860 even thought of. But I don't want to compound the 190 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:21.149 misery of by throwing up my hands and saying, yep, 191 00:11:22.029 --> 00:11:24.879 when something tough happens to you, when you get a diagnosis, 192 00:11:24.929 --> 00:11:30.860 when your spouse dies, when you can't walk, you just say, yes, 193 00:11:31.100 --> 00:11:34.980 now my life is awful and sucks. To me, that's 194 00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:35.740 the tragedy. 195 00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:40.320 Okay, so you're saying you're not soft pedaling death. It 196 00:11:40.340 --> 00:11:43.100 is a reality. It is scary for most of us. 197 00:11:43.940 --> 00:11:47.059 And it can, depending on how things go, be painful. 198 00:11:47.570 --> 00:11:50.070 But if we all accept that that's the truth, how 199 00:11:50.090 --> 00:11:51.570 do we want to live now? And how do we 200 00:11:51.610 --> 00:11:53.769 want to prepare to live up until that moment? Do 201 00:11:53.830 --> 00:11:56.669 we want to make that a slog, a fear-based marathon 202 00:11:56.690 --> 00:11:59.669 of misery? Or do we want to increase the odds 203 00:11:59.730 --> 00:12:02.620 of as much happiness as possible up until and including 204 00:12:02.649 --> 00:12:03.100 that moment? 205 00:12:03.889 --> 00:12:06.029 That's what the caveat I wanted to add to what 206 00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:09.240 you said, which is it isn't up until that moment 207 00:12:09.419 --> 00:12:13.960 is within those moments. So the privilege of being a 208 00:12:13.980 --> 00:12:17.970 gerontologist is that I have been bedside. of so many 209 00:12:18.009 --> 00:12:23.850 people dying, so many people with very tough diagnoses. After 210 00:12:23.889 --> 00:12:26.610 you lose your spouse, people after they lose an adult 211 00:12:26.649 --> 00:12:31.769 child or a grandchild. So the goal isn't like, oh, 212 00:12:31.809 --> 00:12:37.090 just be happy until that rough time. It is, how 213 00:12:37.230 --> 00:12:41.029 can I continue all these learnings that you every day 214 00:12:41.429 --> 00:12:45.379 are promoting with people and giving people? How can we 215 00:12:45.500 --> 00:12:50.779 bring those into even

the hard times and especially the 216 00:12:50.820 --> 00:12:51.480 hard times. 217 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:56.720 Yes, that lands for me. And I apologize to people 218 00:12:56.740 --> 00:12:58.259 who've been listening to this show for a long time 219 00:12:58.279 --> 00:13:01.120 because I've mentioned it before, so I hope I'm not 220 00:13:01.139 --> 00:13:04.090 being too repetitive. But I did volunteer for many years 221 00:13:04.129 --> 00:13:06.830 in a hospice and so was able to witness many 222 00:13:06.850 --> 00:13:08.549 of the same things that you've been able to witness. 223 00:13:08.610 --> 00:13:12.330 And I have to say, generally speaking, while physical discomfort 224 00:13:12.389 --> 00:13:15.909 can be part of the package and no two deaths 225 00:13:15.970 --> 00:13:21.190 are the same. But overall, I noticed two things. One, 226 00:13:21.330 --> 00:13:25.049 there's an interesting sort of serenity that often kicks in 227 00:13:25.090 --> 00:13:26.750 toward the end. And I don't know what it is 228 00:13:27.169 --> 00:13:29.850 about the human animal that makes that so common. And 229 00:13:29.909 --> 00:13:32.470 then the other thing I noticed is just given the 230 00:13:32.509 --> 00:13:35.049 reality of modern medicine, and especially if you've chosen the 231 00:13:35.110 --> 00:13:37.370 hospice route, we can make you comfortable. 232 00:13:37.649 --> 00:13:41.649 Yes, that's exactly right. And the things that you are 233 00:13:41.769 --> 00:13:46.230 teaching and studying of meditation and love and otherness and 234 00:13:46.470 --> 00:13:53.429 all these millions of topics impacts that aging experience, that 235 00:13:53.509 --> 00:13:58.149 being old experience, and that death experience. It's not separate. 236 00:13:58.350 --> 00:14:00.850 And what we're doing now is not wasted. It's pulled 237 00:14:00.909 --> 00:14:04.490 into this final phase. And it becomes, in my opinion, 238 00:14:05.330 --> 00:14:06.610 most important then. 239 00:14:07.230 --> 00:14:10.240 What do you think it is, if we're both right, 240 00:14:10.269 --> 00:14:15.429 that anecdotally it is quite common for people facing death 241 00:14:15.789 --> 00:14:20.769 to be pretty calm. I mean, it's not everybody, for sure. 242 00:14:21.049 --> 00:14:23.289 But if we're right that that is quite a common 243 00:14:23.350 --> 00:14:27.509 human experience to achieve a kind of equanimity in the 244 00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:30.700 face of imminent death, what is it about the human 245 00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:32.179 organism that enables that? 246 00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:37.399 I don't know, number one. And number two, I try 247 00:14:37.460 --> 00:14:40.629 to think of it like birth. right? So if somebody 248 00:14:40.669 --> 00:14:43.210 were to say, okay, Dan, what you're going to do 249 00:14:43.470 --> 00:14:46.129 is you're going to squeeze through a tiny hole and 250 00:14:46.190 --> 00:14:48.549 be all bloody. And then like your arms are going 251 00:14:48.580 --> 00:14:51.580 to frail out and you're going to scream. And then 252 00:14:51.820 --> 00:14:53.929 strangers are going to grab you with gloves on. I mean, 253 00:14:53.980 --> 00:14:57.120 it's pretty like, what in the heck? And yet that 254 00:14:57.200 --> 00:15:03.240 is birth. And I think as beings, as humans, death 255 00:15:03.320 --> 00:15:05.679 is also that same thing on the other side that 256 00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:07.539 every single one of us is going to have. And 257 00:15:09.259 --> 00:15:13.799 I'm not saying it's easy or even always beautiful, but 258 00:15:13.860 --> 00:15:17.539 it is, right? It is factual. And so maybe when 259 00:15:17.590 --> 00:15:21.029 we get there, that kind of takes over of like, yeah, 260 00:15:21.210 --> 00:15:23.889 I was born and I'm on my way out. And 261 00:15:23.929 --> 00:15:26.929 that is natural and normal. And not one person has 262 00:15:27.190 --> 00:15:30.820 ever escaped that. Yes. All the time people come to 263 00:15:30.860 --> 00:15:34.879 me and they say, if my partner dies or if 264 00:15:34.899 --> 00:15:38.789 I die, it's always if. And so I do often 265 00:15:38.830 --> 00:15:41.509 take people's hands. I say, when, my friend, when? 266 00:15:42.269 --> 00:15:44.149 Yeah, two things come to mind as I listen to you. 267 00:15:44.309 --> 00:15:47.190 One is that there's an Indian epic that I've never read, 268 00:15:47.230 --> 00:15:49.110 and I'm going to pronounce the name poorly. I think 269 00:15:49.149 --> 00:15:53.669 it's the Mahabharata, something like that. That sounds like the 270 00:15:54.009 --> 00:15:56.120 Mahabharata sounds like really good cheese. 271 00:15:56.240 --> 00:15:57.919 I was going to say my Bharata. I think I've 272 00:15:57.940 --> 00:15:58.340 had that. 273 00:16:00.039 --> 00:16:02.559 The Mahabharata or whatever, however you pronounce it, there's a 274 00:16:02.659 --> 00:16:05.179 line from that. And I'm going to mangle this too, 275 00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:07.360 but it's like, what's the most wondrous thing in the world? 276 00:16:07.879 --> 00:16:10.080 The most wondrous thing in the world is that we 277 00:16:10.100 --> 00:16:13.519 can all be surrounded by aging, illness and death and 278 00:16:13.580 --> 00:16:18.450 yet not take in that we too are going to 279 00:16:18.490 --> 00:16:21.870 go through those things. The second thing that came to 280 00:16:21.909 --> 00:16:23.889 mind as I was listening to you, especially the first 281 00:16:23.929 --> 00:16:26.879 part of your last answer, was that when you were 282 00:16:26.899 --> 00:16:29.519 talking about people kind of accepting that this is just 283 00:16:29.559 --> 00:16:31.960 the way of things, I just remember being in the 284 00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:35.279 hospice and talking to an elderly person. gentleman who was 285 00:16:35.399 --> 00:16:36.950 out of his bed and, but, you know, he was 286 00:16:36.990 --> 00:16:39.149 in hospice. So he was sitting on a chair and, 287

00:16:39.950 --> 00:16:42.529 you know, in his final days, but able to have 288 00:16:42.610 --> 00:16:47.220 some level of mobility. And I was asking him, are 289 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:49.659 you afraid? Cause I asked everybody that because I'm afraid. 290 00:16:50.299 --> 00:16:52.799 And he said, you know, I'm really not. I just 291 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:54.480 feel like I'm part of something larger. 292 00:16:54.779 --> 00:16:58.830 Yes. Like the Dalai Lamas. We are all one. That's 293 00:16:58.929 --> 00:17:01.330 exactly right. And he said that over and over and over. 294 00:17:01.990 --> 00:17:04.609 I think that is part of it too. And conversely, 295 00:17:04.650 --> 00:17:11.319 I've seen people who are so rallying against it. It's like, no, no, no. 296 00:17:11.859 --> 00:17:16.960 And it feels like suffering twice. It's going to happen. 297 00:17:16.980 --> 00:17:21.759 And hopefully by sort of putting in the work and thinking, 298 00:17:21.859 --> 00:17:24.359 I mean, it seems to me that when you get there, 299 00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:27.609 you'll have thought more than anyone I know about all 300 00:17:27.660 --> 00:17:28.089 this stuff. 301 00:17:29.250 --> 00:17:32.430 My pain tolerance and anxiety levels are high enough that 302 00:17:32.490 --> 00:17:34.970 I probably just need to do more of this contemplative 303 00:17:35.009 --> 00:17:37.069 work in advance, but I can't promise I'm going to 304 00:17:37.130 --> 00:17:39.569 ace the test if there isn't even such a thing. 305 00:17:40.150 --> 00:17:42.569 Before I get into the details and the sort of 306 00:17:43.190 --> 00:17:46.589 pedagogical flow of your book, which is called JoySpan, before 307 00:17:46.609 --> 00:17:48.950 I get into that, I just ask one other question 308 00:17:48.990 --> 00:17:51.059 based on something you said earlier. You were talking about 309 00:17:51.130 --> 00:17:56.720 the anti-aging industry in not the most flattering terms. Can 310 00:17:56.740 --> 00:17:59.789 you say more about why that sucks and what it's 311 00:17:59.829 --> 00:18:02.529 getting wrong in the messages that we should bat away? 312 00:18:03.710 --> 00:18:10.250 Okay. So the messaging is how not to age. And 313 00:18:10.289 --> 00:18:13.910 it's appealing. Great. I'm just going to stay young forever. 314 00:18:14.829 --> 00:18:18.809 But the reality is, is that you do age. And 315 00:18:18.869 --> 00:18:22.660 even if you do all the stuff, you still age. 316 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:26.519 So I would propose that we think how not. age, 317 00:18:27.079 --> 00:18:33.440 and that is with vitality, with purpose, with friendship, with beauty, 318 00:18:33.539 --> 00:18:38.180 like all the stuff. But it's sad to me when 319 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:43.170 I see people putting so much of their time capital 320 00:18:43.369 --> 00:18:47.109 and attention to not age, and they're so proud that 321 00:18:47.549 --> 00:18:51.789 people might think they're younger than they are. Again, because

322 00:18:51.849 --> 00:18:55.900 I have seen it play out, and those people... They age. 323 00:18:56.900 --> 00:19:01.769 And it's really not fooling anybody. And here's a gerontologist thing. 324 00:19:01.809 --> 00:19:05.069 Wherever I'm at a party, some older people will come 325 00:19:05.130 --> 00:19:06.759 up and go, you are not going to believe how 326 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:09.779 old I am. Guess. In my mind, I think 82. 327 00:19:09.779 --> 00:19:14.450 And they want me to guess 70 or 60. And 328 00:19:14.490 --> 00:19:16.910 when I was a younger gerontologist, I went with it 329 00:19:16.950 --> 00:19:19.279 with the game because I wanted to make them feel good. 330 00:19:19.299 --> 00:19:22.819 I'm like, oh, I don't know. Are you 53? Oh, no, no. 331 00:19:23.319 --> 00:19:26.440 And now I just say it right out. I go, 82. 332 00:19:26.420 --> 00:19:29.380 And they go, oh, yeah, that's right. I said, how wonderful. 333 00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:34.680 What a radiant 82. Like, oh, I love that. Because that, 334 00:19:34.819 --> 00:19:38.039 to me, that's the flex is like being awesome at 335 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:40.880 the age that you are. But it does take a 336 00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:46.410 reformatting of our mind. to not buy into a multi-billion 337 00:19:46.450 --> 00:19:53.079 dollar industry that profits when we fear and loathe ourselves 338 00:19:53.700 --> 00:19:56.940 for doing what we are supposed to do, which is 339 00:19:57.000 --> 00:19:57.740 growing older. 340 00:19:57.759 --> 00:20:00.849 Okay, so let's see if I can inject a little 341 00:20:00.890 --> 00:20:03.670 bit of nuance here. I'm on your side, 100%. 342 00:20:03.670 --> 00:20:06.730 I get it. And does it not make a certain 343 00:20:06.769 --> 00:20:08.240 amount of sense to.... 344 00:20:11.710 --> 00:20:14.299 I just say, and even as I'm saying this, I'm thinking, 345 00:20:14.519 --> 00:20:17.319 you know, maybe this, the words coming out of my 346 00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:20.980 mouth are going to be reflective of my internal delusion 347 00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:23.619 on this score. But like to look our best to 348 00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:25.940 a certain extent, you know, like I'm reluctant as I 349 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:28.859 say that because who sets the standards, right? 350 00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:31.140 You know, look our best by whose metrics. 351 00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:34.160 But there's a certain amount of like skin care and 352 00:20:34.579 --> 00:20:37.940 et cetera, et cetera, that might be defensible. And might 353 00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:41.210 not fall into the trap of being suckered by the 354 00:20:41.250 --> 00:20:41.789 fear mongers. 355 00:20:42.769 --> 00:20:48.400 Fair. And I love looking my best. My mom, who 356 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:52.839 is 96, loves looking her best. And we both put 357 00:20:52.900 --> 00:20:56.849 time and effort into it. And so... I think it's 358 00:20:56.950 --> 00:21:01.490 just trying to disentangle that that needs to be young. 359 00:21:01.970 --> 00:21:04.559 Like if we can say, I want my skin to 360 00:21:04.599 --> 00:21:07.180 be as nice as possible. I want my hair to 361 00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:09.200 do what I want my hair to do. And for 362 00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:11.539 some people, I want like piercings and I want to 363 00:21:11.559 --> 00:21:14.740 wear colorful clothes and I want glasses. I want all that. Everybody, 364 00:21:14.779 --> 00:21:18.490 it's different what good is. And I'm all for good. 365 00:21:18.509 --> 00:21:23.819 But we're in my opinion, I have gotten bogged down 366 00:21:24.170 --> 00:21:28.660 is when I think that good is young. If those 367 00:21:28.700 --> 00:21:32.559 are the same things, that's a little rougher of a 368 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:36.000 gamble than just saying, yeah, I want to look good. 369 00:21:36.059 --> 00:21:38.720 And to me, this is what good is. And then 370 00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:41.460 I just heard somebody's thought out loud of saying, yeah, 371 00:21:42.380 --> 00:21:45.890 good is young. That's what it is for me. I 372 00:21:45.990 --> 00:21:50.480 want to look young. If you keep thinking about it 373 00:21:50.519 --> 00:21:53.160 a little bit more like i do because i'm obsessed 374 00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:56.619 with the topic if you take it really far you'll 375 00:21:56.700 --> 00:22:02.339 probably find that there will come a point regardless of 376 00:22:02.420 --> 00:22:05.519 what you do and how much money you spend and 377 00:22:05.579 --> 00:22:08.440 how much effort you put into it that you won't 378 00:22:08.619 --> 00:22:14.180 look young yeah and could you still find a way 379 00:22:14.289 --> 00:22:17.930 to look and feel good yes if you could start 380 00:22:17.990 --> 00:22:19.529 to differentiate. 381 00:22:18.869 --> 00:22:23.410 Those That way lies guaranteed suffering. If your goal is 382 00:22:23.609 --> 00:22:27.029 to look young, you will run out of road. So 383 00:22:27.430 --> 00:22:30.509 it's okay to want to look and feel good by 384 00:22:30.529 --> 00:22:31.880 whatever standards you choose. 385 00:22:31.910 --> 00:22:33.200 Hopefully they're healthy standards. 386 00:22:33.559 --> 00:22:36.559 But as long as it's the standard isn't, I want 387 00:22:36.579 --> 00:22:39.180 to look 30 years younger than I am or whatever. 388 00:22:40.019 --> 00:22:40.400 Right. 389 00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:44.339 And I don't care for the judging of other people. 390 00:22:45.019 --> 00:22:46.990 Because I don't know where the line for that is. 391 00:22:47.019 --> 00:22:49.759 So people assume as a gerontologist that I would say like, oh, 392 00:22:49.859 --> 00:22:52.730 don't do it. No, I'm not the boss of what 393 00:22:52.789 --> 00:22:56.089 other people do. Like people are doing different things. If 394 00:22:56.289 --> 00:22:58.470 somebody wants to do Botox, if somebody wants to do surgery, 395 00:22:58.490 --> 00:23:01.369 if somebody wants to color their hair,

especially women, there's 396 00:23:01.410 --> 00:23:05.470 a lot of judgment about that. I think being a woman, 397 00:23:05.559 --> 00:23:08.539 being an aging woman is hard enough as it is. 398 00:23:08.930 --> 00:23:12.549 without having to prove that you don't color your hair 399 00:23:12.670 --> 00:23:15.099 or prove that you do. So it's going to be 400 00:23:15.130 --> 00:23:17.660 different from everyone. And sometimes I'll see somebody with a 401 00:23:17.720 --> 00:23:22.220 lot of plastic surgery and it looks to me like 402 00:23:22.259 --> 00:23:26.720 a little like scary. Then I have to talk to 403 00:23:26.779 --> 00:23:30.269 myself to say, shut up. That's how she's doing it. 404 00:23:30.589 --> 00:23:32.769 You know what? That's her way. And we're going to 405 00:23:32.849 --> 00:23:35.849 do this path a different way because there isn't a 406 00:23:35.910 --> 00:23:38.670 right and wrong. Those of you who are thinking, yes, 407 00:23:38.710 --> 00:23:42.970 there is, be natural. You need to just be completely natural. Oh, 408 00:23:43.009 --> 00:23:45.630 so then you don't, you're not okay with lipstick? Oh, 409 00:23:45.650 --> 00:23:48.470 you're not okay with a haircut? Like, don't brush your hair? Like, 410 00:23:48.829 --> 00:23:53.430 where is the line? So that's why I think doing 411 00:23:53.470 --> 00:23:57.119 it for yourself, but from a thoughtful place is probably 412 00:23:57.160 --> 00:24:00.819 going to lead you on a better path than trying 413 00:24:00.859 --> 00:24:03.720 to stay young or having these absolutes of what a 414 00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:06.000 person can or cannot do on this journey. 415 00:24:06.890 --> 00:24:09.799 I was talking about this. I've been very influenced by 416 00:24:09.880 --> 00:24:11.880 this woman whose name I drop a lot on the show, 417 00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:15.920 Evelyn Triboli, who is one of the progenitors of intuitive eating. 418 00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:18.849 The idea of intuitive eating, as you're nodding your head, 419 00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:20.849 you already know what it is. But for the listener 420 00:24:20.869 --> 00:24:22.130 who may not know what it is, it's kind of 421 00:24:22.170 --> 00:24:26.329 like the anti-diet. Instead of following somebody's rules about what 422 00:24:26.369 --> 00:24:28.730 you should and shouldn't eat, you have a kind of 423 00:24:28.869 --> 00:24:32.390 backdrop of like a basic, gentle understanding of what's healthy, 424 00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:35.890 but you Then allow yourself to eat what you want 425 00:24:36.170 --> 00:24:38.970 when you want it with the caveat that you're tuning 426 00:24:39.029 --> 00:24:42.539 into what your body actually needs. So you're just learning 427 00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:45.819 to trust your own intuition about when and what to eat. 428 00:24:46.279 --> 00:24:48.420 And there's quite a bit of data to suggest that 429 00:24:48.460 --> 00:24:51.099 this is a healthy route. And I've adopted it as 430 00:24:51.140 --> 00:24:53.140 my own. I don't take sides in the diet wars here. 431 00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:55.319 You should do you. This is just what's worked for me. 432 00:24:55.720 --> 00:24:58.690 And I was talking to Evelyn the other day. and 433 00:24:59.089 --> 00:25:01.289 was complaining a little bit. I'm willing to complain to 434 00:25:01.329 --> 00:25:03.390 her more than I do in public, although I guess 435 00:25:03.450 --> 00:25:05.420 now I'm about to do it in public. Complaining to 436 00:25:05.460 --> 00:25:06.859 her a little bit about, you know, I work out 437 00:25:06.900 --> 00:25:09.019 a lot, but I still don't have the, I don't 438 00:25:09.059 --> 00:25:10.880 look the way I used to look when I worked 439 00:25:10.940 --> 00:25:12.880 out a lot in my 30s. My body just doesn't 440 00:25:13.039 --> 00:25:15.559 respond the same way. And I was asking, like, what's 441 00:25:15.619 --> 00:25:18.799 a thing I can say to myself in the moment 442 00:25:18.839 --> 00:25:21.509 when I'm looking in the mirror being like, yeah, like, 443 00:25:21.549 --> 00:25:23.970 why do you have such a paunch or whatever? And 444 00:25:24.049 --> 00:25:25.930 she said, when you look in the mirror in that 445 00:25:25.970 --> 00:25:29.640 judgment spiral, just reframe it as like, look how far 446 00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:32.269 this thing has gotten me. This meat sack has been 447 00:25:32.289 --> 00:25:35.230 around for 54 years. I've dragged it all over the planet. 448 00:25:36.250 --> 00:25:38.950 I've mistreated it in many aspects of my life. And 449 00:25:38.990 --> 00:25:42.450 I can still work out and I can still walk 450 00:25:42.529 --> 00:25:45.329 and I can still work. And I found that to 451 00:25:45.349 --> 00:25:49.210 be really helpful. I like those little moments of counter-programming. 452 00:25:50.269 --> 00:25:54.210 I think that's so important. And I was thinking intuitive aging, 453 00:25:54.250 --> 00:25:57.880 that would be such a good Corollary. Yeah, exactly. I, 454 00:25:57.940 --> 00:26:01.240 the other day, had my shirt inside out, as I 455 00:26:01.279 --> 00:26:05.059 do sometimes, and my girlfriend said, your shirt's inside out. 456 00:26:05.660 --> 00:26:07.579 Because I had a sports bra on, I thought, okay, 457 00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:09.940 I'm going to take my shirt off and switch it around. 458 00:26:10.359 --> 00:26:13.279 And as I did so, I know that I showed 459 00:26:13.400 --> 00:26:19.200 my pooch. And, you know, I'm like you, I'm 55, 460 00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:24.680 and there's no washboard there, despite lots of exercise. And 461 00:26:24.839 --> 00:26:27.960 then I thought, if I saw someone else with that, 462 00:26:28.599 --> 00:26:32.660 I wouldn't like them less. I'd like them more. I 463 00:26:32.900 --> 00:26:36.119 would think, look at you. You're like me. And these bodies, 464 00:26:36.400 --> 00:26:38.400 as you said, have been around for a long time. 465 00:26:38.420 --> 00:26:41.109 And they're

not going to look like we see, because 466 00:26:41.170 --> 00:26:44.190 even the people we see don't look like that. And 467 00:26:44.609 --> 00:26:48.950 sometimes I run into celebrities, because I live near Los Angeles, 468 00:26:49.390 --> 00:26:53.589 and they don't look the way they look on TV. 469 00:26:54.019 --> 00:26:57.529 social media or on TV or movies. I mean, nobody 470 00:26:57.609 --> 00:27:01.470 actually really looks just like that. So we're supposed to 471 00:27:01.490 --> 00:27:03.609 look a little bit different as we get older and 472 00:27:03.769 --> 00:27:05.289 get used to it. I love your thought. 473 00:27:06.009 --> 00:27:07.630 I wish I could take credit for it. It's Evelyn's 474 00:27:07.690 --> 00:27:08.210 per usual. 475 00:27:08.609 --> 00:27:09.650 I love Evelyn's thought. 476 00:27:13.190 --> 00:27:13.750 Coming up, Dr. 477 00:27:13.769 --> 00:27:16.710 Carey talks about the concept of joy span, four core 478 00:27:16.769 --> 00:27:20.900 habits for aging well. three critical factors for continued growth, 479 00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:33.930 how to diversify your social portfolio, and much more. I 480 00:27:33.970 --> 00:27:35.390 forced you to do a lot of chatter before we've 481 00:27:35.410 --> 00:27:37.609 actually gotten into the meat of your book. So let's 482 00:27:37.710 --> 00:27:40.349 talk about your book. It's called Joy Span. If you're 483 00:27:40.470 --> 00:27:42.059 open to it, I would love to hear you explain 484 00:27:42.599 --> 00:27:45.119 what the title refers to very specifically. 485 00:27:46.279 --> 00:27:52.220 Yes. So Joy In the longevity world, we rightly talk 486 00:27:52.259 --> 00:27:56.880 about lifespan, how many years you live. And we understandably 487 00:27:56.940 --> 00:28:00.880 want to maximize that to 100 years, to 110 years, 488 00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:06.130 some 120 years. Then, more recently, we've expanded the notion 489 00:28:06.250 --> 00:28:09.690 to what we call health span, how many years you 490 00:28:09.750 --> 00:28:13.490 live in relatively good health. And the work of Peter 491 00:28:13.509 --> 00:28:17.309 Attia and a lot of people has moved healthspan to 492 00:28:17.349 --> 00:28:20.369 a common word. And I love it because we want 493 00:28:20.390 --> 00:28:25.170 to live as healthy as possible and do these things physically. 494 00:28:26.049 --> 00:28:30.009 Health can be defined to include both physical health and 495 00:28:30.049 --> 00:28:34.150 emotional or psychological health, but too often it seems to 496 00:28:34.190 --> 00:28:38.880 be stuck on physical health. And there wasn't enough conversation 497 00:28:39.319 --> 00:28:42.720 because I would have patients who would live a long life, lifespan, 498 00:28:43.180 --> 00:28:47.509 in pretty darn good health, health span, and they were miserable. 499 00:28:48.250 --> 00:28:52.289 So that is just a long life of miserable. That's 500 00:28:52.369 --> 00:28:55.390 not great. That's suffering, and I don't

want that, and 501 00:28:55.410 --> 00:28:58.849 I don't want that for anyone. So I started to think, 502 00:28:59.170 --> 00:29:04.960 how can we address the well-being component, the psychological, emotional, 503 00:29:05.259 --> 00:29:08.160 spiritual part to it? And I tried out different words 504 00:29:08.200 --> 00:29:11.880 with my patients. I tried out well-span, and people thought 505 00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:16.650 I was saying wealth-span. which is important too. But I 506 00:29:17.150 --> 00:29:21.289 landed on the word joy or joy span because joy, 507 00:29:21.470 --> 00:29:26.009 as defined by the American Psychological Association, is defined as 508 00:29:26.430 --> 00:29:31.250 well-being and satisfaction. And so I thought, yes, joy is 509 00:29:31.309 --> 00:29:37.390 not ecstasy. It's not smiley, smiley. It's well-being and satisfaction. 510 00:29:37.869 --> 00:29:40.799 And there is a great body of research as you 511 00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:48.269 well know, of what practices contribute to well-being, to satisfaction 512 00:29:48.309 --> 00:29:52.230 with your life, or as a more catchy term, to 513 00:29:52.309 --> 00:29:53.470 your joy span. 514 00:29:55.470 --> 00:29:57.309 Well, let's talk about it because in the book, you've 515 00:29:57.349 --> 00:30:01.799 got these four areas. where we can focus in order 516 00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:05.680 to increase our joy span. If you're cool with it, 517 00:30:05.700 --> 00:30:07.319 let's just kind of march through the four. 518 00:30:08.039 --> 00:30:10.180 Okay, so when I dug into the literature to find 519 00:30:10.299 --> 00:30:13.960 out why do some of my patients thrive in longevity, 520 00:30:14.920 --> 00:30:17.529 even with this rough stuff that they carry, and my 521 00:30:17.630 --> 00:30:21.250 other people, it's awful. Like, what is this? There were 522 00:30:21.430 --> 00:30:25.849 thousands and thousands of variables from different research articles. And 523 00:30:25.910 --> 00:30:29.869 I was like, I can't work on or suggest thousands 524 00:30:29.900 --> 00:30:33.750 of things. That's daunting. So I spent years digging, like, 525 00:30:33.910 --> 00:30:37.970 how do they group? And happily, they do group into 526 00:30:38.049 --> 00:30:43.109 four categories. And I made sure to phrase them all 527 00:30:43.289 --> 00:30:48.349 as verbs because they all take work. And so the 528 00:30:48.509 --> 00:30:51.529 easy thing is to look at somebody thriving at 95 529 00:30:51.529 --> 00:30:55.670 and say, oh man, she's got great genes, or wow, 530 00:30:55.710 --> 00:30:58.160 she's just so lucky. But what we found in the 531 00:30:58.200 --> 00:31:02.420 research that genetics is less than 25% of it. In 532 00:31:02.859 --> 00:31:06.259 some studies, it's only 13% of it. So that means 533 00:31:06.299 --> 00:31:09.319 there are things that we can do. And I tried 534 00:31:09.480 --> 00:31:14.059 so hard to make these four areas a little catchy acronym. 535 00:31:14.200 --> 00:31:16.980 And I would spend hours and hours in coffee shop 536 00:31:17.049 --> 00:31:22.430 making it spell stuff. And it was artificial and hokey 537 00:31:22.529 --> 00:31:26.009 and lame. And then one day in disgust, I said, 538 00:31:26.089 --> 00:31:28.289 I'm just going to have it be the words that 539 00:31:28.309 --> 00:31:33.130 they are. So, sorry. But you can remember them. It 540 00:31:33.190 --> 00:31:36.029 starts with a G and ends with a G. Like, oh, G. 541 00:31:36.710 --> 00:31:39.829 And then C-A is in the middle. And I'm from California. 542 00:31:40.250 --> 00:31:43.069 So that gives you a little something. But the first G, 543 00:31:43.150 --> 00:31:47.829 which is a verb, is grow. That humans are intended 544 00:31:47.869 --> 00:31:50.910 to grow. And the research shows us that people who 545 00:31:51.009 --> 00:31:55.359 consciously decide to to keep growing and it can be 546 00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:59.319 in many many different ways are people who tend to 547 00:31:59.380 --> 00:32:06.019 have that greater emotional stability and higher sense of well-being 548 00:32:06.619 --> 00:32:10.099 and that means doing hard things like not taking the 549 00:32:10.119 --> 00:32:12.509 foot off the pedal and saying I'm not going to 550 00:32:12.549 --> 00:32:16.369 do anything hard now that I'm older it means really 551 00:32:16.430 --> 00:32:20.289 sparking your intellectual curiosity. And so that's something in the book. 552 00:32:20.329 --> 00:32:22.329 I have kind of a checklist to get you going, 553 00:32:22.369 --> 00:32:25.769 but it's only the start. That's the first one, grow. 554 00:32:26.549 --> 00:32:28.490 Let's stay here for a second because I want to 555 00:32:28.529 --> 00:32:29.470 go deep on each of these. 556 00:32:29.750 --> 00:32:29.970 Yay. 557 00:32:30.230 --> 00:32:33.880 So you said the first of the four starts with 558 00:32:33.900 --> 00:32:37.519 G and it's grow. In the book, you write that 559 00:32:37.539 --> 00:32:45.180 there are three critical factors for ongoing growth, self-acceptance, curiosity, 560 00:32:45.240 --> 00:32:48.220 and humor. Can you dig in a little bit with these? 561 00:32:49.079 --> 00:32:54.099 Yes. So in order to grow, there has to be 562 00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:59.680 a level of self-acceptance. And that's hard, right? Because if 563 00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:05.069 we think like, oh, I'm just constantly not enough and 564 00:33:05.109 --> 00:33:06.869 I'm not going to be able to do all this stuff. 565 00:33:07.529 --> 00:33:10.430 And look at this old fat belly with all these 566 00:33:10.630 --> 00:33:14.009 neck wrinkles. It doesn't put us in a place to 567 00:33:14.069 --> 00:33:17.289 have enough kind of headspace. to think, how can I 568 00:33:17.349 --> 00:33:20.130 put some attention to growth? So like a first step 569 00:33:20.700 --> 00:33:24.940 is recognizing, I am getting older. This is a new 570 00:33:25.059 --> 00:33:29.160 phase for me. And we talked a little bit

about self-acceptance, 571 00:33:29.259 --> 00:33:33.779 about consciously countering that narrative in our head that we 572 00:33:33.799 --> 00:33:37.809 are failing because we're growing older or that it's not 573 00:33:37.890 --> 00:33:41.390 okay that we have wrinkles or that we need glasses. 574 00:33:41.509 --> 00:33:44.349 And So even just like something simple as looking in 575 00:33:44.380 --> 00:33:48.269 the mirror and when your mind says, oh no, look 576 00:33:48.309 --> 00:33:52.430 at that. Just to say inside your mind, like, yeah, 577 00:33:53.490 --> 00:33:56.569 who cares about that? You have so many other things, 578 00:33:56.589 --> 00:33:59.049 like just to try to counter the narrative that is 579 00:33:59.509 --> 00:34:03.039 pounding in our mind. So that's self-acceptance. I know the 580 00:34:03.079 --> 00:34:06.019 third one is humor. And the second one is? Curiosity. 581 00:34:06.279 --> 00:34:06.839 Curiosity. 582 00:34:06.859 --> 00:34:13.980 So curiosity is? Allowing yourself the space to think, now what? 583 00:34:14.380 --> 00:34:17.500 Am I a little bit interested in Bitcoin? Gosh, would 584 00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:21.139 it be cool if I could grow a vegetable garden? Or, wow, 585 00:34:21.400 --> 00:34:24.320 I know my next door neighbor is having some real troubles. 586 00:34:24.340 --> 00:34:26.199 I wonder if I could go over and help. Just 587 00:34:26.579 --> 00:34:29.539 to kind of open up that spark of curiosity, knowing 588 00:34:29.599 --> 00:34:34.019 that you might have 40 years ahead and want to 589 00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:38.559 try to continue to grow. It takes that initial spark. 590 00:34:39.030 --> 00:34:41.829 And then the last is humor, which is with all 591 00:34:41.869 --> 00:34:45.570 this hard stuff, you got to laugh. And I found 592 00:34:46.110 --> 00:34:50.519 in my patients and in the literature that humor plays 593 00:34:50.599 --> 00:34:54.840 a role in enabling us to have the bravery to 594 00:34:54.900 --> 00:34:58.110 move forward. And maybe you're going to stink at something 595 00:34:58.150 --> 00:35:00.409 that you're going to try. And that's a good thing. 596 00:35:00.849 --> 00:35:03.699 It's good to stink, should be something that we take 597 00:35:03.739 --> 00:35:06.039 from this. You're going to be bad at things and 598 00:35:06.260 --> 00:35:08.519 being bad at things is the first step in growing 599 00:35:08.579 --> 00:35:11.079 in things. And it's good for your mind and it's 600 00:35:11.119 --> 00:35:14.059 good for your longevity and it's good for your inflammation. 601 00:35:14.480 --> 00:35:16.550 So that was the last one is humor. 602 00:35:17.230 --> 00:35:20.309 Are there levers we can pull to get better at 603 00:35:20.349 --> 00:35:20.949 the humor piece? 604 00:35:21.030 --> 00:35:21.329 Yes. 605 00:35:21.409 --> 00:35:22.849 I mean, I kind of think of it as a 606 00:35:22.889 --> 00:35:24.409 factory setting, but I'm curious. 607 00:35:25.230 --> 00:35:28.750 No,

I don't think so. The research shows that hanging 608 00:35:28.889 --> 00:35:33.650 out with people who make you laugh, with making a 609 00:35:33.710 --> 00:35:36.719 decision to laugh out loud and say out loud. So 610 00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:41.119 this morning, it has cleared the air, but I put 611 00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:44.360 some eggs and cottage cheese and spinach on the stove 612 00:35:44.420 --> 00:35:46.219 and then went upstairs to do something, and then I 613 00:35:46.260 --> 00:35:48.489 burned it. So my whole house is filled with smoke, 614 00:35:49.110 --> 00:35:52.269 and so was the little fire detector was going off 615 00:35:52.329 --> 00:35:56.110 and making so much noise. I just decided, like, I 616 00:35:56.199 --> 00:35:59.300 have to laugh. Like, I'm doing my dream podcast and 617 00:35:59.320 --> 00:36:01.159 it's going to be all smoky in front of me. 618 00:36:01.500 --> 00:36:03.780 I can't figure out how to turn this fire alarm off. 619 00:36:03.980 --> 00:36:07.639 I have 10 minutes till this thing starts. And wiggling, 620 00:36:07.659 --> 00:36:10.699 wiggling came down and I broke the whole thing. And 621 00:36:11.380 --> 00:36:15.119 I was like, nice, Carrie. That's a choice right there 622 00:36:15.420 --> 00:36:19.000 to decide I'm going to laugh. And I have unending 623 00:36:19.059 --> 00:36:23.010 material as a human because humans screw up every day. 624 00:36:23.579 --> 00:36:25.619 You can laugh at those things. You can choose to 625 00:36:25.699 --> 00:36:29.360 watch funny movies. You can choose, especially in this environment 626 00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:33.039 where there is so much that is heartbreaking and scary 627 00:36:33.179 --> 00:36:38.340 and awful, that we can feed ourselves by also deciding 628 00:36:38.659 --> 00:36:40.889 to find the humor in the things that we can 629 00:36:40.989 --> 00:36:41.849 find the humor in. 630 00:36:42.769 --> 00:36:43.369 Amen to that. 631 00:36:43.389 --> 00:36:47.550 On this issue of being open to growth perpetually as 632 00:36:47.590 --> 00:36:51.949 a way to increase your JoySpan, specifically on learning. I 633 00:36:51.989 --> 00:36:54.139 was struck, my parents are both in assisted living. 634 00:36:54.159 --> 00:36:57.579 They're a lot younger than your mom. My mom's about. 635 00:36:57.440 --> 00:37:00.179 To be 82. Or actually, by the time this posts, 636 00:37:00.340 --> 00:37:02.860 she may be 82. I go there once a month 637 00:37:02.900 --> 00:37:05.059 and teach some meditation. And I was sitting in the 638 00:37:05.519 --> 00:37:08.230 session before. My mom goes to like, she carries around 639 00:37:08.250 --> 00:37:11.110 the activity sheet and just goes from activity to activity 640 00:37:11.170 --> 00:37:13.389 all day long. And this woman was an editor at 641 00:37:13.409 --> 00:37:15.969 the New England Journal of Medicine and now plays bingo. 642 00:37:16.309 --> 00:37:18.480 And to watch her adjust.... 643 00:37:19.010 --> 00:37:21.170 To this new phase of her life has been really 644 00:37:21.210 --> 00:37:24.010 cool because she's really taken to it. I never, she 645 00:37:24.050 --> 00:37:27.019 was not super social as a younger person. And now 646 00:37:27.059 --> 00:37:30.280 she's like the mayor of this assisted living facility and 647 00:37:30.619 --> 00:37:32.679 does all the stuff. And I was in the middle 648 00:37:32.699 --> 00:37:35.699 of the session before my meditation class. And they were 649 00:37:35.719 --> 00:37:40.329 like doing some not very good slideshow for the codgers. 650 00:37:40.889 --> 00:37:44.070 And my mom was like totally engaged and asking questions 651 00:37:44.150 --> 00:37:45.630 and asking for more information. 652 00:37:45.750 --> 00:37:47.769 And I was so impressed. 653 00:37:48.360 --> 00:37:51.400 And that just speaks to, I think, what you're talking 654 00:37:51.420 --> 00:37:54.280 about of growth as a necessary contributor to joy span. 655 00:37:55.059 --> 00:37:59.949 And how incredible, because she could just as easily poo-pooed 656 00:37:59.989 --> 00:38:02.530 this all as beneath her because she's the editor of 657 00:38:02.710 --> 00:38:06.750 New England Journal of Medicine, but she didn't, right? She decided, 658 00:38:06.769 --> 00:38:09.690 I'm going to jump in. I'm going to do this phase, 659 00:38:10.110 --> 00:38:14.449 which is a choice of reduced suffering because you're going 660 00:38:14.530 --> 00:38:18.050 with it. Yes. That's my hope. for myself is that 661 00:38:18.130 --> 00:38:21.659 I would follow your mom's path of saying, and I 662 00:38:21.699 --> 00:38:24.460 get to this too, is how can I adapt to 663 00:38:24.500 --> 00:38:26.780 try to make the most of this and continue to grow? 664 00:38:26.820 --> 00:38:29.719 And sometimes the growth is things that we would see, 665 00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:32.219 but sometimes it isn't. I have a patient, for example, 666 00:38:33.079 --> 00:38:36.929 who is a very well-regarded businessman, and he made a 667 00:38:36.969 --> 00:38:41.130 realization that he has never been an actual real listener. 668 00:38:41.530 --> 00:38:46.969 He is a wisdom and leadership and he's not big listener. 669 00:38:47.010 --> 00:38:49.289 And he decided like, that's going to be my growth. 670 00:38:49.389 --> 00:38:51.710 I'm going to learn to listen because I never actually 671 00:38:51.750 --> 00:38:55.039 learned that. And so the act of shutting the heck 672 00:38:55.219 --> 00:38:59.920 up was his growth. And interestingly, his kids and grandkids 673 00:38:59.960 --> 00:39:03.019 and people he's around now flock to him because I 674 00:39:03.039 --> 00:39:07.489 think we all crave being authentically listened to. And that 675 00:39:07.530 --> 00:39:09.829 gave me hope. I thought, gosh, I could be a 676 00:39:09.869 --> 00:39:12.630 better listener. And that's something I continue to grow on 677 00:39:12.809 --> 00:39:14.420 all life long. Yes. 678 00:39:14.739 --> 00:39:17.800 I mean,

these stories about people who pick something up 679 00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:19.719 late in life or make a change late in life are, 680 00:39:20.059 --> 00:39:22.849 there's a reason why they're so galvanizing, so exciting to us. 681 00:39:22.860 --> 00:39:25.130 And my friend of mine, two days before this interview, 682 00:39:25.530 --> 00:39:28.130 sent me an article about a woman who started powerlifting 683 00:39:28.170 --> 00:39:31.530 in her 60s that was really just... achieving some virality, 684 00:39:32.010 --> 00:39:34.969 the article was. And, you know, I found it incredibly 685 00:39:35.010 --> 00:39:38.210 exciting to read. Yeah, it's just a liberating notion that 686 00:39:38.289 --> 00:39:42.510 you can make substantial changes at any point. 687 00:39:43.590 --> 00:39:46.789 Absolutely. I read one recently. It's a man who had 688 00:39:46.829 --> 00:39:50.699 a very high position in the military. And when he retired, 689 00:39:51.320 --> 00:39:55.159 he found that there were a real lack of bus 690 00:39:55.179 --> 00:39:58.119 drivers after COVID. And so he thought, well, I'll just 691 00:39:58.179 --> 00:39:59.920 try it out. I don't know if I would really 692 00:39:59.980 --> 00:40:02.719 do that. And so he started driving the bus and 693 00:40:02.739 --> 00:40:05.590 he started impacting each of the children. And then he 694 00:40:05.630 --> 00:40:08.170 changed it. So instead of going to the bus wash 695 00:40:08.530 --> 00:40:11.489 every Saturday, he held a bus wash where all the 696 00:40:11.530 --> 00:40:14.210 children and the families would come and wash the bus. Well, 697 00:40:14.250 --> 00:40:18.199 he's really changing lives. in a way that he actually 698 00:40:18.280 --> 00:40:21.659 never had before. And that, you know, you store these things, 699 00:40:21.719 --> 00:40:25.079 you think, wow, it's not an anomaly to continue to grow. 700 00:40:25.219 --> 00:40:28.320 It is what humans do when they flourish. 701 00:40:28.639 --> 00:40:28.860 Yes. 702 00:40:29.900 --> 00:40:32.460 My nanny growing up, Juanita, she's no longer with us. 703 00:40:33.219 --> 00:40:36.260 After we got into high school and we didn't need 704 00:40:36.300 --> 00:40:41.030 a nanny anymore, she moved to Maine and became a 705 00:40:41.050 --> 00:40:43.909 school bus driver for students with special needs. And every 706 00:40:43.949 --> 00:40:46.510 kid who got on the bus every morning got their 707 00:40:46.570 --> 00:40:47.690 own hug from Juanita. 708 00:40:48.550 --> 00:40:53.019 Wow. Wow. And talking about a win, win, win. Yeah, exactly. 709 00:40:53.159 --> 00:40:56.329 For the parents, for her, for those children. Yes. 710 00:40:57.380 --> 00:40:59.780 She also used to smack us with a spatula. So, 711 00:41:00.219 --> 00:41:01.519 you know, it wasn't all perfect. 712 00:41:02.039 --> 00:41:04.440 So did my mom. So there's that. 713 00:41:06.739 --> 00:41:08.909 Just one little factual point on my mom. She was 714 00:41:08.949 --> 00:41:11.030 not the editor of New England Journal of Medicine. She 715 00:41:11.070 --> 00:41:14.969 was an editor, but she was an eminent physician at 716 00:41:15.010 --> 00:41:18.179 Harvard for many, many decades. And it's very cool to 717 00:41:18.219 --> 00:41:21.760 watch her adapt to her life as a resident of 718 00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:23.360 a assisted living facility. 719 00:41:23.739 --> 00:41:24.400 As the mayor. 720 00:41:25.030 --> 00:41:25.889 As the mayor, yes. 721 00:41:26.090 --> 00:41:30.280 So, okay, there are four ways to increase your joy span. 722 00:41:30.340 --> 00:41:34.030 We've talked about one, which is growth. The second is connect. 723 00:41:34.309 --> 00:41:35.030 Please say more. 724 00:41:35.949 --> 00:41:40.590 So an abundant amount of research, much coming out of 725 00:41:40.670 --> 00:41:43.210 Harvard in the longitudinal study that was an 85-year study 726 00:41:43.230 --> 00:41:49.389 of what really were the biggies in a long life, 727 00:41:49.769 --> 00:41:54.800 well-lived and satisfaction with life or what I'm calling joy span. 728 00:41:55.179 --> 00:41:58.820 And what they found, it was connection, the degree to 729 00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:06.760 which people felt that they had meaningful relationships. And sometimes, 730 00:42:06.980 --> 00:42:09.119 some of us who like to be alone, I am one, 731 00:42:09.659 --> 00:42:12.159 you can think, oh, well, not me. I don't really 732 00:42:12.219 --> 00:42:14.639 need anybody. I'm just happy just to chill by myself. 733 00:42:15.269 --> 00:42:18.030 It's actually, when you dig into the research, it's all 734 00:42:18.070 --> 00:42:20.630 of us have a need for human connection, even though 735 00:42:20.670 --> 00:42:23.829 it's expressed a little bit differently. And the problem is, 736 00:42:24.070 --> 00:42:27.780 as we get older, my mom at 96 has lost, 737 00:42:28.199 --> 00:42:32.340 I'd say 99% of her friends have passed away. So 738 00:42:32.380 --> 00:42:35.380 one of the things we talk about is diversifying your 739 00:42:35.440 --> 00:42:40.070 social portfolio in the same way you diversify your financial portfolio. 740 00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:44.239 so that you don't have all your eggs in one basket. 741 00:42:44.380 --> 00:42:49.719 So that is making younger friends. And that requires you 742 00:42:49.760 --> 00:42:52.949 to recognize how much you have to offer. Because sometimes 743 00:42:52.989 --> 00:42:55.429 we say, oh gosh, you know, now I'm 55. I 744 00:42:55.550 --> 00:42:58.010 don't know if a 30-year-old would want to hang out 745 00:42:58.070 --> 00:43:01.110 with me. And actually, there's so much benefit to hanging 746 00:43:01.150 --> 00:43:04.239 out with people who walk in front of you. And 747 00:43:04.880 --> 00:43:07.630 it's usually not the younger person who is saying, I 748 00:43:07.670 --> 00:43:09.829 don't want to hang out. It's often the older person 749 00:43:09.869 --> 00:43:12.809 putting these limits on themselves. So

that's one step of 750 00:43:12.869 --> 00:43:16.070 it is diversifying. If you just have one best friend 751 00:43:16.150 --> 00:43:19.210 and then they die of cancer, you're in worse shape 752 00:43:19.650 --> 00:43:22.699 than loving your best friend, of course, but also thinking 753 00:43:22.780 --> 00:43:25.960 I'm going to have multiple friends. And then when you think, 754 00:43:26.139 --> 00:43:30.900 how do I do that? I call that being that friend. 755 00:43:31.340 --> 00:43:34.199 And that friend is the one who picks up the phone, 756 00:43:34.719 --> 00:43:37.679 who does the text, who makes the plan, who says, 757 00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:41.820 can I drive you to your chemo appointment, who remembers 758 00:43:41.860 --> 00:43:44.449 that it was two years ago today that your dad died, 759 00:43:44.719 --> 00:43:47.269 who has a list of things. So it takes quite 760 00:43:47.309 --> 00:43:49.869 a bit of proactive. And when my patients come to 761 00:43:49.909 --> 00:43:53.230 me and say they are lonely, I, of course, I 762 00:43:53.289 --> 00:43:56.710 take it very seriously because loneliness is as dangerous to 763 00:43:56.769 --> 00:44:01.800 our health as smoking 14 cigarettes a day. And I 764 00:44:01.980 --> 00:44:04.300 ask them, tell me what you're doing in terms of 765 00:44:04.400 --> 00:44:08.130 reaching out. And they'll say, well, Nobody's reaching out to me. 766 00:44:08.590 --> 00:44:12.280 Nobody's including me. That's why I'm lonely. And so then 767 00:44:12.300 --> 00:44:14.679 we always have to turn it around and try to think, 768 00:44:15.179 --> 00:44:18.300 what can you do? So if your mobility is limited, 769 00:44:18.320 --> 00:44:21.070 a text is a way to work. If you don't 770 00:44:21.139 --> 00:44:24.730 text because your eyesight is limited, there are phones and 771 00:44:24.789 --> 00:44:28.070 solutions where people can go next door and knock on 772 00:44:28.090 --> 00:44:31.150 the door and say, hey, I picked some lemons. Or 773 00:44:31.210 --> 00:44:33.530 when you go to the coffee shop, Do you know 774 00:44:33.590 --> 00:44:36.170 the name of the person who is serving the coffee? 775 00:44:36.230 --> 00:44:41.050 Because over time, those connections, those micro connections are what 776 00:44:41.170 --> 00:44:45.130 enable us to build this social portfolio that will sustain 777 00:44:45.230 --> 00:44:48.300 us for these very long lives. Yeah. 778 00:44:48.320 --> 00:44:51.380 And your comments there seem to be directed toward your 779 00:44:51.619 --> 00:44:55.679 gerontology patients, but this is massively important at any age. 780 00:44:56.059 --> 00:44:59.000 And if you want to live a long, healthy, happy life. 781 00:45:00.070 --> 00:45:02.550 you need friends. And that's true for introverts. You just 782 00:45:02.590 --> 00:45:05.309 need fewer friends or you may just need fewer friends. 783 00:45:05.349 --> 00:45:08.389 So it's just a key thing to work on. I'll 784 00:45:08.409 --> 00:45:10.949

say just I feel like I may have maybe doing 785 00:45:10.969 --> 00:45:12.670 too much talking in this episode, but I'll say one 786 00:45:12.710 --> 00:45:15.829 last little anecdotal thing here, which is that one area 787 00:45:15.849 --> 00:45:19.250 of growth for me in my 50s has been I 788 00:45:19.309 --> 00:45:22.789 really have become the guy who organizes stuff. I never 789 00:45:22.829 --> 00:45:24.809 was that guy would go to your party, but I 790 00:45:24.869 --> 00:45:28.150 never organized stuff. So now like I organize a a 791 00:45:28.190 --> 00:45:31.710 little meditation retreat for some friends every year too, actually. 792 00:45:31.789 --> 00:45:35.289 And then I have three or four recurring dinner groups. 793 00:45:35.369 --> 00:45:38.030 And two of them, I'm like, I really am like, 794 00:45:38.070 --> 00:45:40.860 I set up the WhatsApp chat and I book the 795 00:45:40.900 --> 00:45:43.300 table and I do the head count. And I have 796 00:45:43.340 --> 00:45:46.300 to say, I get enormous enjoyment out of it. I'm 797 00:45:46.320 --> 00:45:47.989 surprised how much I like it. 798 00:45:48.280 --> 00:45:49.380 It's also a pain in the ass. 799 00:45:49.420 --> 00:45:51.199 And like you see, when you're organizing a thing, people 800 00:45:51.239 --> 00:45:53.769 are kind of rude. And I realized how rude I've 801 00:45:53.809 --> 00:45:55.349 been in the past. It's like, oh, they're going to 802 00:45:55.389 --> 00:45:57.530 bail out the last minute or they don't. give you 803 00:45:57.570 --> 00:46:00.500 an RSVP, you know, so you can't get a head count. 804 00:46:00.820 --> 00:46:03.440 So I can find myself getting a little resentful at times. 805 00:46:03.780 --> 00:46:07.159 And yet it doesn't outweigh how good it has been 806 00:46:07.219 --> 00:46:09.079 for me. And knowing that it's doing a lot of 807 00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:09.960 good for the other people. 808 00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:14.340 I couldn't agree more. And the earlier we start, the better. 809 00:46:14.360 --> 00:46:16.960 And it is a pain in the rear. And you 810 00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:19.320 kind of get uncomfortable because you're putting yourself out there. 811 00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:23.579 Some girls were talking about their book group. And I 812 00:46:23.619 --> 00:46:26.380 had this realization like, I love books and I'm not 813 00:46:26.440 --> 00:46:28.789 in a book group. So I reached out to them 814 00:46:28.849 --> 00:46:31.070 and I said, oh, I love books. Maybe, you know, 815 00:46:31.170 --> 00:46:33.349 I could be in that book group. And they're great girls, 816 00:46:33.809 --> 00:46:36.780 but they just, they're women. But they said, oh, we 817 00:46:36.800 --> 00:46:38.639 made this pact that was going to only be the 818 00:46:38.679 --> 00:46:40.980 same group and that we're going to travel with that 819 00:46:41.099 --> 00:46:44.860 group because it's really well established, which I understand. But 820 00:46:44.900 --> 00:46:46.860 then I needed to do the next step, which is 821 00:46:46.900 --> 00:46:50.019 to make my own book club. So I called it 822 00:46:50.099 --> 00:46:53.179 the No NBD, No Big Deal Book Club. And it's 823 00:46:53.219 --> 00:46:55.199 not even required that you read the book. You could 824 00:46:55.219 --> 00:46:58.519 just come and we'll never judge you. And we're on 825 00:46:58.579 --> 00:47:01.199 about our third meeting. I thought, why didn't I do 826 00:47:01.239 --> 00:47:04.510 this 10 years ago? Why didn't I do this at 827 00:47:04.510 --> 00:47:07.550 45 or 35 or 25? I, too, was a person 828 00:47:07.590 --> 00:47:11.130 who waited to be included. And then maybe, like you said, 829 00:47:11.190 --> 00:47:15.190 I wouldn't show up or wouldn't respond. So, yeah, I 830 00:47:15.230 --> 00:47:16.989 was one of the annoying people, but I'm trying to 831 00:47:17.030 --> 00:47:17.940 move to the other side. 832 00:47:19.000 --> 00:47:26.130 Well, come on in. The water is lukewarm. Coming up, Dr. 833 00:47:26.170 --> 00:47:29.369 Carey talks about some coping strategies for adapting in the 834 00:47:29.389 --> 00:47:32.289 face of change, the strengths that will come with age 835 00:47:32.369 --> 00:47:34.769 for most of us, and some tools that you. 836 00:47:34.670 --> 00:47:36.570 Can utilize when your joy dips. 837 00:47:46.320 --> 00:47:49.500 The next skill set for increasing joy spans, we've talked 838 00:47:49.539 --> 00:47:51.460 about growth, talked about connection. 839 00:47:51.980 --> 00:47:54.900 The next is adapt. Please say more. 840 00:47:55.789 --> 00:48:01.780 So the recognition and the realism that there will be 841 00:48:01.840 --> 00:48:04.980 changes on this long life journey if you live a 842 00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:09.650 long life. And so rather than we're just denying aging 843 00:48:10.250 --> 00:48:13.179 or just don't think about it, don't ever think about it. 844 00:48:13.429 --> 00:48:15.489 I had somebody the other day tell me, I was 845 00:48:15.550 --> 00:48:18.789 watching your mom who lives home alone at 96 and 846 00:48:19.269 --> 00:48:22.039 I just can't understand why she said she needs to 847 00:48:22.139 --> 00:48:24.630 use a walker because I'm not going to ever do 848 00:48:24.670 --> 00:48:26.789 that because my legs are going to always stay so 849 00:48:26.869 --> 00:48:31.010 strong because I do leg exercises. And I had to say, like, 850 00:48:31.429 --> 00:48:34.550 I think you really haven't been around older people quite 851 00:48:34.610 --> 00:48:38.210 enough because there are changes. And you can do the 852 00:48:38.269 --> 00:48:41.949 whole checklist of all the wonderful things and every burpee 853 00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:45.639 and every green drink and all the stuff. And still 854 00:48:45.699 --> 00:48:49.739 there will be changes. A diagnosis you didn't expect or 855 00:48:49.800 --> 00:48:54.260 maybe macular degeneration or maybe your partner dies. In my case, 856 00:48:54.340 --> 00:48:58.250

when I was writing and researching about adaptation using some 857 00:48:58.309 --> 00:49:03.750 research from Israel about measuring how adaptable you are, my 858 00:49:04.150 --> 00:49:09.590 middle daughter, who is 25, was diagnosed with a brain tumor. Sorry. 859 00:49:10.329 --> 00:49:14.909 I was like, no, this is wrong. It could be me. 860 00:49:14.949 --> 00:49:17.030 It could be my 96-year-old mom. It could be my 861 00:49:17.050 --> 00:49:21.289 57-year-old husband. But wait, my daughter? I hadn't factored in 862 00:49:21.309 --> 00:49:25.250 that that could happen. But she's doing well, and she's 863 00:49:25.289 --> 00:49:28.309 in medical school, and every six months we're doing an MRI. 864 00:49:29.650 --> 00:49:32.329 But it's not my first choice, but also it made 865 00:49:32.369 --> 00:49:35.449 me realize, like, yes, there is going to be stuff 866 00:49:35.530 --> 00:49:40.889 in this journey. I guarantee it. And when... Your stuff comes. 867 00:49:41.710 --> 00:49:45.320 It's how you respond, how you adapt, how you get 868 00:49:45.340 --> 00:49:48.380 your mind around it. The work that takes to adapt 869 00:49:48.440 --> 00:49:51.980 to that which you didn't want really impacts the quality 870 00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:56.239 of your life. So my patients who are just consistently 871 00:49:56.579 --> 00:50:01.489 pissed off about something happening, it's a choice to stay 872 00:50:01.829 --> 00:50:05.909 forever mad. and shaking our fist at that thing. Like, 873 00:50:05.949 --> 00:50:08.150 it's not fair that my kid has this, or I 874 00:50:08.230 --> 00:50:10.849 can't believe I had all these plans to travel with 875 00:50:10.889 --> 00:50:13.630 my husband, and then he passed away suddenly. Like, all 876 00:50:13.690 --> 00:50:17.570 these things. So adapting, it's not that it's easy, but 877 00:50:17.590 --> 00:50:20.840 it is possible, and we know it's possible because I 878 00:50:20.900 --> 00:50:24.400 see it all day, every day, with people of all ages. 879 00:50:25.079 --> 00:50:28.280 So in the book, you talk about some ways to 880 00:50:28.960 --> 00:50:32.059 boost our ability to cope, which is a cousin, if 881 00:50:32.099 --> 00:50:34.989 not a synonym, with adapting. And you list some internal 882 00:50:35.030 --> 00:50:36.909 strategies and some external strategies. 883 00:50:36.949 --> 00:50:39.369 Can you just pick a few and walk us through them? 884 00:50:40.190 --> 00:50:43.510 Sure. I call these the coping strategies toolbox. And some 885 00:50:43.570 --> 00:50:46.269 are things we do inside of ourselves and some are 886 00:50:46.289 --> 00:50:48.150 things that we reach out. So I'll give you just 887 00:50:48.170 --> 00:50:53.199 a couple of examples. An internal coping strategy that many 888 00:50:53.239 --> 00:50:56.739 people find helpful is even just journaling to try to 889 00:50:56.860 --> 00:51:01.030 process the emotions. And In the book, I list out 890 00:51:01.110 --> 00:51:04.309 maybe about 10 different options and then you can check off, 891 00:51:04.369 --> 00:51:07.389 have I tried this? Was it even helpful? Because some 892 00:51:07.409 --> 00:51:11.690 things are helpful for some people. Another internal strategy is 893 00:51:12.130 --> 00:51:14.320 something you might know a little bit about, which is 894 00:51:14.400 --> 00:51:18.099 to meditate. That is one that I often fall off of. 895 00:51:18.159 --> 00:51:19.639 And then when I get back to it, I think, 896 00:51:19.679 --> 00:51:23.400 oh my goodness, I have resources internally that I didn't 897 00:51:23.440 --> 00:51:28.610 know I had because this incredible gift called meditation, something 898 00:51:28.650 --> 00:51:32.369 that my mom and I both do is a gratitude 899 00:51:32.429 --> 00:51:35.869 practice where every single day we write down three things 900 00:51:36.070 --> 00:51:39.349 in a journal that we're grateful for. And she, in 901 00:51:39.449 --> 00:51:43.420 her book, is up to 590 items. And she'll flip 902 00:51:43.480 --> 00:51:46.300 through those items on days that she's feeling blue. And 903 00:51:46.659 --> 00:51:49.920 sometimes it's just as simple as, I'm grateful I have 904 00:51:49.960 --> 00:51:52.119 a bed. I'm grateful I have a pillow. I get 905 00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:54.239 to have my cup of coffee. I get to take 906 00:51:54.280 --> 00:51:57.960 a shower. So then if we turn to the external 907 00:51:58.119 --> 00:52:02.400 coping strategies, seeking support from friends and family and letting 908 00:52:02.460 --> 00:52:04.780 them in to know that I am having a hard 909 00:52:04.820 --> 00:52:07.059 time with this. I am a person who loved to 910 00:52:07.139 --> 00:52:10.980 walk and now I can't walk and I am mad 911 00:52:11.079 --> 00:52:14.480 and frustrated and disappointed and I didn't expect this to 912 00:52:14.559 --> 00:52:17.699 be my thing and I hate this. Let's talk about it. 913 00:52:17.840 --> 00:52:21.150 And that can be really helpful because they also have 914 00:52:21.190 --> 00:52:23.309 a thing and you guys can talk about those things. 915 00:52:23.860 --> 00:52:25.920 Sometimes your friends don't know what to say. And so 916 00:52:25.960 --> 00:52:29.460 consulting a therapist or a counselor can be really helpful. 917 00:52:29.760 --> 00:52:33.889 And there are therapists and counselors who can help at 918 00:52:34.110 --> 00:52:37.989 every age. And that includes in our later years. There's 919 00:52:38.190 --> 00:52:44.710 geropsychologists and geropsychiatrists who do absolutely incredible work. And I'll 920 00:52:44.750 --> 00:52:51.550 just name one more external coping strategies. One is thinking 921 00:52:51.650 --> 00:52:56.719 about not marinating as much in that thing that is 922 00:52:57.179 --> 00:53:01.400 rough that you're needing to adapt to and consciously trying 923 00:53:01.480 --> 00:53:05.000 to go to somebody else and what their thing is. 924 00:53:05.219 --> 00:53:08.099 And so when my daughter was

diagnosed with that brain tumor, 925 00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:11.519 all I could hear was vestibular schwannoma. It was just 926 00:53:11.579 --> 00:53:14.800 like my walking thing and it was all about me. 927 00:53:15.110 --> 00:53:18.170 And then I tried this to try to look up 928 00:53:18.250 --> 00:53:21.369 and I looked over at my friend who had lost 929 00:53:21.429 --> 00:53:25.510 a child and I said, first of all, I'm so 930 00:53:25.590 --> 00:53:28.789 sorry that when you were going through this, I wasn't there. 931 00:53:28.809 --> 00:53:32.969 And second of all, I want to think about you 932 00:53:33.010 --> 00:53:36.969 and learn from you and be with you now. And 933 00:53:37.190 --> 00:53:40.329 getting my focus away from my own problems and onto 934 00:53:40.369 --> 00:53:44.539 somebody else made a huge shift. And I think maybe 935 00:53:44.559 --> 00:53:45.320 good for her, too. 936 00:53:45.340 --> 00:53:51.519 One of my perhaps too glib thoughts. taglines is you 937 00:53:51.559 --> 00:53:53.159 know the view is so much better when you pull 938 00:53:53.179 --> 00:53:55.420 your head out of your ass and to be clear 939 00:53:55.460 --> 00:53:59.380 this is not about catastrophic altruism or people pleasing it's 940 00:53:59.460 --> 00:54:03.760 more that it just feels really good we're wired we 941 00:54:03.800 --> 00:54:07.699 survived as a species because of our capacity to cooperate 942 00:54:07.760 --> 00:54:10.380 and so if you can just get out of your 943 00:54:10.420 --> 00:54:13.079 own stuff and be useful to somebody else it really 944 00:54:13.480 --> 00:54:14.679 is elevating. 945 00:54:14.849 --> 00:54:17.510 It saved me. I watch it a lot with people 946 00:54:17.530 --> 00:54:20.389 of all ages where you, all of a sudden, like 947 00:54:20.429 --> 00:54:22.809 you said, you pull your head out and you're like, what? 948 00:54:23.030 --> 00:54:25.670 Other people have stuff too? You know? 949 00:54:26.190 --> 00:54:27.710 Yeah. Okay. So the fourth. 950 00:54:28.750 --> 00:54:31.119 So we're at the fourth. And so, you know, it 951 00:54:31.139 --> 00:54:33.139 started with a G, so it's going to end with 952 00:54:33.199 --> 00:54:38.400 a G. And this one is give. And that gets 953 00:54:38.659 --> 00:54:43.309 out nothing new. The age old from all these different 954 00:54:43.690 --> 00:54:50.079 philosophies and practices and religions and learnings of the ability 955 00:54:50.360 --> 00:54:57.380 to give of yourself really impacts how you will experience 956 00:54:57.420 --> 00:55:00.670 your longevity and indeed how you will experience your life. 957 00:55:01.329 --> 00:55:05.130 And so often when people think about legacy, they're thinking 958 00:55:05.210 --> 00:55:09.389 about giving money. And for most of us, money isn't 959 00:55:09.550 --> 00:55:11.920 the thing that we have. So that's why I think 960 00:55:11.960 --> 00:55:15.519 it's more apt to think about giving of yourself and 961 00:55:16.099 --> 00:55:20.420 thinking of ways you can look for needs and then 962 00:55:20.480 --> 00:55:25.300 step in and fill them. And our internalized ageism sometimes 963 00:55:25.400 --> 00:55:28.920 prevents that. So we think, man, you know, here I am. 964 00:55:28.940 --> 00:55:33.820 I'm 87. What do I have to give? And that's 965 00:55:33.840 --> 00:55:39.010 such a shame because the world has what older you brings. 966 00:55:39.679 --> 00:55:41.820 And so in this world where everyone's saying, look at me, 967 00:55:41.889 --> 00:55:44.489 look at me, look at me, myself included with having 968 00:55:44.530 --> 00:55:48.889 just done a book tour, the fact that humility matters 969 00:55:48.989 --> 00:55:51.250 and that it can get stronger as we get older. 970 00:55:51.269 --> 00:55:55.250 And if I have an 87-year-old come to me and 971 00:55:56.150 --> 00:56:00.429 with their presence and with their words remind me about 972 00:56:00.550 --> 00:56:04.809 what humility does and the power of it, I need that. 973 00:56:05.269 --> 00:56:08.829 So get out of your way and think, I do 974 00:56:08.949 --> 00:56:12.070 have what the world needs and I'm going to offer 975 00:56:12.170 --> 00:56:15.789 it and it's not going to land every time. So 976 00:56:16.289 --> 00:56:19.659 an example recently, I have a friend who I think 977 00:56:19.679 --> 00:56:23.940 is about 84 and her neighbor has four young children 978 00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:27.179 and she's a single mother. So my friend said, I 979 00:56:28.400 --> 00:56:31.500 would love to, because I had four children as a 980 00:56:31.519 --> 00:56:33.119 single mother, I'd love to go and knock on the 981 00:56:33.159 --> 00:56:36.610 neighbor's door and say at dinnertime, If it's helpful to you, 982 00:56:37.230 --> 00:56:40.210 maybe I could hold or entertain some of the kids 983 00:56:40.269 --> 00:56:43.250 so that you could cook. And I encouraged her because 984 00:56:43.510 --> 00:56:47.739 I would have loved that. And this woman practically closed 985 00:56:47.760 --> 00:56:50.760 the door on her face. And so it was like, okay, 986 00:56:50.800 --> 00:56:54.219 that didn't work. But then we said, okay, it was 987 00:56:54.539 --> 00:56:57.659 such a good thought. That just wasn't the right one. 988 00:56:57.800 --> 00:57:01.010 We got to kiss some frogs. Let's find it. And 989 00:57:01.179 --> 00:57:04.829 she did. She found another. This was a single father. 990 00:57:05.360 --> 00:57:08.920 who is an incredible guy and he has two kids 991 00:57:09.300 --> 00:57:12.659 and she with gusto and bravery offered it. And now 992 00:57:12.719 --> 00:57:16.219 she goes over every Tuesday and Thursday and she's there 993 00:57:16.260 --> 00:57:18.590 with the kids while he's putting dinner together and they 994 00:57:18.610 --> 00:57:22.090 have this beautiful friendship and it's really giving of herself 995 00:57:22.190 --> 00:57:24.230 with what she has, which is her time and her 996 00:57:24.289 -->

00:57:25.369 desire to give. 997 00:57:26.210 --> 00:57:27.309 And expertise actually. 998 00:57:27.510 --> 00:57:27.809 Yes. 999 00:57:28.909 --> 00:57:30.650 So you made a nod to the fact that some 1000 00:57:30.670 --> 00:57:33.429 people may have a whole story about like, I don't 1001 00:57:33.570 --> 00:57:36.199 know what to give. You in the book have a 1002 00:57:36.639 --> 00:57:41.070 sort of four steps for cultivating this habit of giving. 1003 00:57:41.610 --> 00:57:43.889 I'll just say them all out loud and you can 1004 00:57:43.929 --> 00:57:46.010 just pick up on whichever one you want to say 1005 00:57:46.050 --> 00:57:48.570 more on, if not all of them. The first is 1006 00:57:48.590 --> 00:57:51.889 to find what sparks you, reflect on what your passions 1007 00:57:51.969 --> 00:57:55.130 and interests are. The second is to brainstorm ways to 1008 00:57:55.340 --> 00:57:59.000 use that spark. The third is to imagine the future you. 1009 00:58:00.010 --> 00:58:02.170 you know, like your older self and what they're doing 1010 00:58:02.190 --> 00:58:04.510 and how they're giving. And the fourth is to try 1011 00:58:04.710 --> 00:58:07.769 out some form of giving to just do some experiments. 1012 00:58:08.380 --> 00:58:10.519 Do I have that right? And if so, like anything 1013 00:58:10.539 --> 00:58:11.039 more to add? 1014 00:58:11.519 --> 00:58:14.440 You have it right. And I wanted to expound on 1015 00:58:14.480 --> 00:58:18.039 the one that is imagining this best possible future you. 1016 00:58:18.460 --> 00:58:23.300 So often we forget to continue to dream about the 1017 00:58:23.340 --> 00:58:28.809 best possible. So it does require you picturing, wow, I 1018 00:58:28.869 --> 00:58:34.139 see myself. I'm at the whatever, doing this. Go ahead 1019 00:58:34.179 --> 00:58:38.559 and dream it first. And then we as humans naturally 1020 00:58:38.699 --> 00:58:43.699 work toward that. So really picture yourself, let's say, at 1021 00:58:43.699 --> 00:58:46.360 90 years old. And what do you look like? What 1022 00:58:46.389 --> 00:58:49.789 are you doing? But do it the best possible version. 1023 00:58:50.050 --> 00:58:52.730 Because I think sometimes we do the opposite. We imagine 1024 00:58:52.769 --> 00:58:59.059 this old, spooky, decrepit, poop-in-our-pants version of And I don't 1025 00:58:59.079 --> 00:59:02.110 think that's helpful. I think that, yeah, you then kind 1026 00:59:02.150 --> 00:59:07.090 of are inadvertently working toward that. But this 98-year-old Dan 1027 00:59:07.190 --> 00:59:11.159 doing his thing, organizing his meditation group right? Like really 1028 00:59:11.219 --> 00:59:12.699 picture that how you're going to do it. 1029 00:59:14.780 --> 00:59:16.559 This is a move I've made several times throughout the 1030 00:59:16.920 --> 00:59:20.320 course of this conversation. But you, given your training, you 1031 00:59:20.360 --> 00:59:24.780 really do, I think, focus quite rightly many of your 1032 00:59:25.110

--> 00:59:28.829 comments toward your patient population. And I just want to 1033 00:59:29.269 --> 00:59:32.570 say that If you have an altruistic mindset, which again 1034 00:59:32.650 --> 00:59:37.349 is not people-pleasing and it is not giving away all 1035 00:59:37.369 --> 00:59:40.610 of your shit and leaving yourself with nothing, but just 1036 00:59:41.050 --> 00:59:46.000 as the great meditation teacher and author Ram Dass, no. 1037 00:59:45.940 --> 00:59:48.019 Longer with us, wrote a book or co-authored a book 1038 00:59:48.260 --> 00:59:49.219 called How Can I Help? 1039 00:59:49.980 --> 00:59:52.960 If you use that as just a lens through which 1040 00:59:53.019 --> 00:59:55.300 you see the world, and look, you're not always going 1041 00:59:55.320 --> 00:59:58.269 to be in that mindset sometimes. you just don't want 1042 00:59:58.289 --> 01:00:00.550 to help. You need to set boundaries and that's fine. 1043 01:00:00.590 --> 01:00:03.539 But just more often than not, if your mindset is, 1044 01:00:03.900 --> 01:00:06.679 how can I help? There's a lot of data to 1045 01:00:06.739 --> 01:00:10.420 show that that will improve your life at any age. 1046 01:00:11.039 --> 01:00:15.110 Absolutely. At every single age. And I love that simple, like, 1047 01:00:15.570 --> 01:00:18.929 how can I help? I love Eleanor Roosevelt who said, 1048 01:00:19.070 --> 01:00:22.489 when you cease to make a contribution, you begin to die. 1049 01:00:22.510 --> 01:00:27.460 And There is research out of UCLA, Stephen Cole, where 1050 01:00:27.500 --> 01:00:30.800 he looked at how people who feel that they have 1051 01:00:30.840 --> 01:00:35.429 a sense of purpose age have different epigenetics than those 1052 01:00:35.610 --> 01:00:39.150 who don't. And by that, I mean how genes are 1053 01:00:39.230 --> 01:00:44.889 expressed in terms of inflammation and antiviral load are impacted 1054 01:00:45.389 --> 01:00:48.530 when you feel that there is something for you to 1055 01:00:49.429 --> 01:00:53.750 do or give of yourself. And he didn't expect that. 1056 01:00:53.849 --> 01:00:56.070 And so they wrote about it in the New York Times. 1057 01:00:56.130 --> 01:00:59.550 And I remember thinking, look at that. I mean, if 1058 01:01:00.070 --> 01:01:03.760 purpose and giving was a drug, we would all be 1059 01:01:03.880 --> 01:01:06.440 clamoring for it. And yet it is something that is 1060 01:01:06.500 --> 01:01:11.380 within our reach that can be done, but takes work. 1061 01:01:11.460 --> 01:01:12.460 It doesn't just happen. 1062 01:01:12.480 --> 01:01:16.039 The penultimate chapter of your book is called Filling Your 1063 01:01:16.119 --> 01:01:18.719 Joy Tank. You talk about a couple of things in 1064 01:01:18.739 --> 01:01:21.110 here that are interesting to me. One, you kind of 1065 01:01:21.170 --> 01:01:25.250 referenced this earlier, but one way to fill your joy 1066 01:01:25.269 --> 01:01:28.730 tank is to reflect on the things, the strengths that 1067 01:01:28.869 --> 01:01:32.429 come with age. Again, you did reference this earlier, but 1068 01:01:32.469 --> 01:01:34.250 can you just say a little bit more about the 1069 01:01:34.329 --> 01:01:38.039 good stuff that inevitably accrues to us as we get older? 1070 01:01:39.079 --> 01:01:41.480 Yes. I like to talk about it because you don't 1071 01:01:41.559 --> 01:01:44.409 ever hear about it and there's no money in it. 1072 01:01:44.559 --> 01:01:48.519 I can attest to that. So one of the things 1073 01:01:48.579 --> 01:01:51.110 that research shows gets better as you get older is 1074 01:01:51.170 --> 01:01:53.889 that you don't care quite as much what other people 1075 01:01:53.949 --> 01:01:56.750 think about you. And that can be really liberating. And 1076 01:01:56.789 --> 01:02:00.030 we could, and I've asked my patients who are ahead 1077 01:02:00.070 --> 01:02:05.199 of me, like, does this continue? This liberation that I have, like, oh, well, 1078 01:02:05.340 --> 01:02:08.639 I have crap on my teeth. That doesn't kill me anymore. Like, 1079 01:02:09.050 --> 01:02:13.090 Like it did when I was a teenager. And people say, yes, yes, 1080 01:02:13.469 --> 01:02:17.639 I have continued to be less encumbered by what other 1081 01:02:17.659 --> 01:02:21.000 people think about me. And it feels great. Other things 1082 01:02:21.079 --> 01:02:24.199 that it shows that are emotional stability. So we don't 1083 01:02:24.239 --> 01:02:28.239 get as rocked about things as we used to. And 1084 01:02:28.360 --> 01:02:31.840 that continues as we get older and older to be 1085 01:02:32.139 --> 01:02:34.800 just have this nice, not so up and not so 1086 01:02:34.840 --> 01:02:39.420 down place to be. other things are our appreciation of 1087 01:02:39.500 --> 01:02:46.230 our friendships, our appreciation of nature and art and music 1088 01:02:46.789 --> 01:02:53.250 and stillness and recognizing the collective unity of things that 1089 01:02:53.289 --> 01:02:56.829 sometimes in our younger years we're so identified with being 1090 01:02:56.869 --> 01:03:00.769 a separate self, achieving and accolades and trying to make 1091 01:03:00.829 --> 01:03:04.969 ourselves enough. And when we get older, we can have 1092 01:03:05.010 --> 01:03:08.820 a tendency to recognize we're okay as we are and 1093 01:03:08.840 --> 01:03:12.469 we don't need to keep somehow proving that we're okay 1094 01:03:12.570 --> 01:03:15.170 because we can start to say, yeah, this is me. 1095 01:03:16.070 --> 01:03:19.489 There's some literature showing that we become more ourselves as 1096 01:03:19.530 --> 01:03:22.170 we get older. And then the question is, is that 1097 01:03:22.190 --> 01:03:24.610 a good thing or a bad thing? And so by 1098 01:03:24.670 --> 01:03:28.900 starting this stuff early, that's the way to make it 1099 01:03:28.940 --> 01:03:31.599 a good thing to become more like yourself as you 1100 01:03:31.639 --> 01:03:32.139 get older. 1101 01:03:33.429 -->

01:03:36.250 My uncle Peter was asked on his 60th birthday, how 1102 01:03:36.289 --> 01:03:39.150 he felt. And he said off the hook. And I 1103 01:03:39.190 --> 01:03:41.449 really liked that. You know, it's like, he didn't feel 1104 01:03:41.469 --> 01:03:43.460 like he had so much to prove at that point. 1105 01:03:43.860 --> 01:03:45.840 That would be a great name of a book off 1106 01:03:45.860 --> 01:03:46.300 the hook. 1107 01:03:47.940 --> 01:03:50.699 And it strikes me that we can pull forward the 1108 01:03:50.940 --> 01:03:55.860 naturally occurring benefits of age. If we work on it. 1109 01:03:56.789 --> 01:03:59.349 Yes. It doesn't just happen. Like he's not just not like, 1110 01:03:59.510 --> 01:04:02.650 Oh yay. I'm, I have met plenty of older people 1111 01:04:02.690 --> 01:04:06.829 who are not wise. So it's not a natural thing. 1112 01:04:07.139 --> 01:04:11.320 But with intention and effort, in the same way that 1113 01:04:11.440 --> 01:04:17.780 we work on our physical body using cardiovascular strength training, flexibility, 1114 01:04:18.300 --> 01:04:22.139 and agility training, we can work on our inside self, 1115 01:04:22.599 --> 01:04:27.269 which is about growing and connecting and adapting and giving. 1116 01:04:27.409 --> 01:04:29.090 And it just gives us a little bit of a 1117 01:04:29.190 --> 01:04:33.789 vocabulary to think, hmm, with this joy span matrix, where 1118 01:04:33.829 --> 01:04:36.030 am I strong right now? Where am I not strong 1119 01:04:36.070 --> 01:04:38.610 right now? And you might think, huh, yeah, actually I 1120 01:04:38.710 --> 01:04:41.570 am connecting and I am adapting to this thing and 1121 01:04:42.170 --> 01:04:46.679 I'm giving over here through my volunteer, but man, I 1122 01:04:46.719 --> 01:04:49.280 don't actually have a grow right now. What would it 1123 01:04:49.340 --> 01:04:51.780 be like? What would be something that I might add 1124 01:04:52.280 --> 01:04:56.639 or subtract that would enable me to grow as a person? 1125 01:04:56.659 --> 01:04:59.880 So- And then toward the end of the book, you 1126 01:04:59.900 --> 01:05:03.480 talk about what happens when your joy span dips. And 1127 01:05:04.079 --> 01:05:08.340 there's some science behind why this inevitably happens, even if 1128 01:05:08.400 --> 01:05:12.000 we're going whole hog on all four aspects of the 1129 01:05:12.059 --> 01:05:12.900 joy span matrix. 1130 01:05:13.760 --> 01:05:17.980 Yes, I call it when your joy span dips because 1131 01:05:18.039 --> 01:05:21.550 it is when, not if. So these are the things 1132 01:05:21.610 --> 01:05:25.550 that can cause dips and will cause dips. You feel 1133 01:05:25.750 --> 01:05:31.420 frustrated by health setbacks. You feel left out or disconnected. 1134 01:05:31.440 --> 01:05:36.429 You feel discounted by society. Like people look at me 1135 01:05:36.550 --> 01:05:39.590 differently now that I'm in my 80s or 90s. It 1136 01:05:39.630 --> 01:05:41.969 could also be that you feel like a burden. Maybe 1137 01:05:41.989 --> 01:05:44.449 you can have some care needs and people are helping 1138 01:05:44.510 --> 01:05:47.420 you and it doesn't feel very good to be helped 1139 01:05:47.500 --> 01:05:49.619 when you've always been the one to pride yourself on 1140 01:05:49.659 --> 01:05:53.559 being the helper. So there are some very real reasons, 1141 01:05:54.059 --> 01:05:57.139 feeling heartbroken, right? You know, the death of somebody that 1142 01:05:57.179 --> 01:06:00.320 you love, a friend or a partner, or maybe you 1143 01:06:00.360 --> 01:06:03.260 feel like the best days of life are behind you. 1144 01:06:03.960 --> 01:06:08.610 So when these things happen, and they will, things that 1145 01:06:08.650 --> 01:06:12.190 we can do is things like finding role models, like 1146 01:06:12.409 --> 01:06:15.980 looking to people who have experienced these same kinds of things, 1147 01:06:16.119 --> 01:06:20.460 how did they walk with it? Focusing on things that 1148 01:06:20.599 --> 01:06:25.320 are possibilities rather than everything being like consuming yourself with 1149 01:06:25.360 --> 01:06:30.610 the limitations. And these small meaningful steps toward recognizing that 1150 01:06:30.710 --> 01:06:35.230 you can, you're not just a victim to these changes 1151 01:06:35.670 --> 01:06:39.769 and that you can be making a little change that 1152 01:06:40.030 --> 01:06:43.530 impact what this period of life is going to look like. 1153 01:06:44.130 --> 01:06:49.510 Things like cultivating gratitude and self-compassion. So sometimes I'll even 1154 01:06:49.769 --> 01:06:53.920 talk out loud to myself when I'm going through something rough. 1155 01:06:54.559 --> 01:06:57.380 And I'll say, even out loud, like, well, you did 1156 01:06:57.400 --> 01:07:00.940 your best. Or that's okay, care. I'll call myself care. Like, 1157 01:07:01.320 --> 01:07:03.460 that's okay, care. Just to try to, and you've heard 1158 01:07:03.480 --> 01:07:07.190 this before, to be as civil to ourselves as we 1159 01:07:07.250 --> 01:07:11.369 are to other people. Because sometimes our inner voice is 1160 01:07:11.489 --> 01:07:16.860 real bitch. And sometimes like countering that and saying, you know, yeah, 1161 01:07:16.960 --> 01:07:19.780 that was rough and you gave it your best or, well, 1162 01:07:19.800 --> 01:07:22.219 at least that's a laugh or maybe I'll do that 1163 01:07:22.300 --> 01:07:23.380 differently next time. 1164 01:07:24.699 --> 01:07:28.380 Another evidence-based practice. I can't say this enough. Self-compassion, ton 1165 01:07:29.400 --> 01:07:32.320 of evidence. It's not letting yourself off the hook. It 1166 01:07:32.440 --> 01:07:35.429 is moving from an inner drill sergeant to an inner coach. 1167 01:07:36.090 --> 01:07:38.710 Coach doesn't let you off the hook. He or she 1168 01:07:38.789 --> 01:07:41.349 will point out when you've made mistakes. They're just not 1169 01:07:41.369 --> 01:07:43.780 jerks about it.

And You can do that for yourself. 1170 01:07:43.840 --> 01:07:47.119 And one of the ways to do it, CARE just demonstrated, 1171 01:07:47.139 --> 01:07:51.260 which is literally just talking to yourself the way you 1172 01:07:51.280 --> 01:07:54.320 would talk to a good friend. And it's massively, massively helpful. 1173 01:07:55.000 --> 01:07:56.639 As you know, because you've listened to this show, I 1174 01:07:56.980 --> 01:08:01.570 end by asking two questions. One is, is there something 1175 01:08:01.610 --> 01:08:03.349 you were hoping that we would get to that we haven't? 1176 01:08:04.690 --> 01:08:08.070 Yes, I just want people to remember that they can 1177 01:08:08.289 --> 01:08:14.809 actively reshape revolutionize what it is to be old. Because 1178 01:08:14.829 --> 01:08:17.350 I think most people go, yeah, the way that we're 1179 01:08:17.369 --> 01:08:19.949 doing old isn't right. The way we treat older people 1180 01:08:20.029 --> 01:08:24.520 isn't right. The way that we change it is by 1181 01:08:25.350 --> 01:08:27.319 our road. And I don't think it's ever going to 1182 01:08:27.359 --> 01:08:30.539 be a 20-year-old saying like, aha, I see the value 1183 01:08:30.579 --> 01:08:34.300 of aging. I think it's going to be people stepping in. 1184 01:08:34.380 --> 01:08:36.460 And when people say, oh my gosh, you don't even 1185 01:08:36.600 --> 01:08:39.670 look 75. You could say, this is what 75 looks like. Like, 1186 01:08:41.260 --> 01:08:44.020 I think that we can, in the same way that 1187 01:08:44.479 --> 01:08:47.579 we used to say things like that women couldn't run 1188 01:08:47.659 --> 01:08:51.810 businesses because they were too emotional. We have proven that 1189 01:08:51.859 --> 01:08:55.130 is baloney. And this whole thing that old people don't 1190 01:08:55.210 --> 01:08:58.109 have value or that are less than or gross or 1191 01:08:58.189 --> 01:09:03.550 scary or irrelevant. it isn't true. And it is very 1192 01:09:03.609 --> 01:09:07.109 harmful to ourselves and to society. So I call it 1193 01:09:07.149 --> 01:09:11.529 the joy span legacy. Let's try to change the way 1194 01:09:12.250 --> 01:09:14.810 that we perceive our own aging so that the people 1195 01:09:14.869 --> 01:09:18.409 who follow us can have a different path to take. 1196 01:09:18.550 --> 01:09:20.569 And what a world that would be if we could 1197 01:09:20.909 --> 01:09:26.140 like step into old being like, yeah, I'm old. Bring it. 1198 01:09:27.979 --> 01:09:31.600 Right. Would you frame it that way of like, it's 1199 01:09:31.659 --> 01:09:35.199 less about some rah-rah thing for myself, but it's more 1200 01:09:35.239 --> 01:09:40.659 about creating a world where my son can age happily. 1201 01:09:40.939 --> 01:09:41.880 It's very motivating. 1202 01:09:42.800 --> 01:09:47.369 It is. And it is possible. And Just because for listeners, 1203 01:09:47.470 --> 01:09:50.430 if your parent died early, it doesn't mean that you're 1204 01:09:50.470 --> 01:09:54.600 going to die early. Or if your parent lived with dementia, 1205 01:09:55.359 --> 01:09:57.920 it doesn't mean you're going to have it. And conversely, 1206 01:09:58.079 --> 01:10:01.479 like for me, my mom had this, she really worked 1207 01:10:01.520 --> 01:10:04.859 hard on her joy span. She does all these things. 1208 01:10:05.170 --> 01:10:07.930 It doesn't mean that I'm automatically going to live this 1209 01:10:08.010 --> 01:10:11.789 really long life or enjoy a long joy span, that 1210 01:10:11.949 --> 01:10:17.079 each of us are contributing something. to our path. And 1211 01:10:17.819 --> 01:10:19.680 so it's just not default. Because I have a few 1212 01:10:19.739 --> 01:10:22.380 friends who say like, my mom died at 52. I 1213 01:10:23.479 --> 01:10:25.560 don't even really need to think about getting older because 1214 01:10:25.600 --> 01:10:28.319 I'm probably not going to get older. And that's actually 1215 01:10:28.340 --> 01:10:32.930 a fallacy. It doesn't mean your parents' experience is your experience. 1216 01:10:33.829 --> 01:10:34.350 Final question. 1217 01:10:34.369 --> 01:10:36.250 Can you just remind everybody of the name of your book? 1218 01:10:36.289 --> 01:10:40.010 And also, please just plug anything and everything that you're 1219 01:10:40.050 --> 01:10:40.449 working on. 1220 01:10:40.470 --> 01:10:44.550 Oh, that is so nice. So it is called Joyce Bands. 1221 01:10:45.470 --> 01:10:49.989 And it is sold everywhere. And I would be so grateful. 1222 01:10:50.130 --> 01:10:52.909 And I want to tell the listeners that I put 1223 01:10:52.949 --> 01:10:56.819 the workbook inside the book. Like you can mark it up. 1224 01:10:57.260 --> 01:11:01.819 But I didn't do another workbook. But all these kind 1225 01:11:01.859 --> 01:11:06.319 of scam artist AI things did work. And so there 1226 01:11:06.340 --> 01:11:09.970 are tons of JoySpan workbooks that have nothing to do 1227 01:11:10.010 --> 01:11:12.510 with me. So I just want you to save your 1228 01:11:12.569 --> 01:11:16.050 money and know that there's no workbook. It's just the book. 1229 01:11:16.710 --> 01:11:18.630 And if you're a person who likes to listen to 1230 01:11:18.670 --> 01:11:22.310 things on Audible, I read it on Audible. I can't 1231 01:11:22.350 --> 01:11:24.810 listen to it, but other people say that they can 1232 01:11:24.829 --> 01:11:26.989 listen to it. So that's a good thing. And then 1233 01:11:27.029 --> 01:11:29.850 sometimes because it's a workbook, some people are doing both 1234 01:11:29.890 --> 01:11:32.449 of those so that they can mark it up. And 1235 01:11:32.510 --> 01:11:35.609 it's for any age. You're not too young for it. 1236 01:11:36.329 --> 01:11:39.310 And it's a polite gift to give to somebody who 1237 01:11:39.489 --> 01:11:42.010 on a big birthday, if they're turning 60 or 70 1238 01:11:42.010 --> 01:11:45.090 or because it isn't saying like, oh, this is a 1239 01:11:45.130 --> 01:11:47.609 book called

You Are Old. This is a book of 1240 01:11:47.750 --> 01:11:50.380 joy span, like lifespan and health span. So it can 1241 01:11:50.399 --> 01:11:54.239 make a nice gift. And I am not selling anything 1242 01:11:54.319 --> 01:11:56.659 except the book, but I do have a website if 1243 01:11:56.699 --> 01:11:59.960 you want it. I put some stuff on there, drcarybernight.com. 1244 01:12:00.819 --> 01:12:03.550 And I do kind of do a lot of Instagram 1245 01:12:04.170 --> 01:12:07.189 because I've learned that by turning the camera on my 1246 01:12:07.210 --> 01:12:12.409 96-year-old mom, we can really show the learning points as 1247 01:12:12.489 --> 01:12:15.899 opposed to, and we have somewhere like 6 million people 1248 01:12:15.949 --> 01:12:19.680 watch do things. And that has been funny for us. 1249 01:12:19.850 --> 01:12:22.119 And we don't sell anything on that either. We just 1250 01:12:22.180 --> 01:12:26.119 do it because it's fun. And that Instagram is the 1251 01:12:26.699 --> 01:12:31.399 underscore gerontologist, if you'd like to follow that. And I 1252 01:12:31.739 --> 01:12:35.319 am just really so grateful that we're talking about aging. 1253 01:12:35.510 --> 01:12:39.600 That's my absolute dream. Talk about it. Think about it. 1254 01:12:39.970 --> 01:12:42.989 Be proactive about it. And know that old is not 1255 01:12:43.010 --> 01:12:46.800 a bad word. And staying young is not actually a 1256 01:12:46.840 --> 01:12:47.399 real thing. 1257 01:12:49.020 --> 01:12:52.550 Well said. Dr. Carrie Burnight, thank you very much. 1258 01:12:52.949 --> 01:12:53.630 Thank you. 1259 01:12:58.630 --> 01:13:00.590 Thanks again to Dr. Carrie Burnight. 1260 01:13:00.710 --> 01:13:03.850 That conversation made me feel much better about many things. 1261 01:13:04.489 --> 01:13:08.210 Don't forget, this episode comes with a custom meditation to 1262 01:13:08.250 --> 01:13:12.119 help you deal with the non-negotiable fact of change. That 1263 01:13:12.159 --> 01:13:15.729 comes from our teacher of the month, Christiana Wolf. If 1264 01:13:15.770 --> 01:13:18.210 you sign up at danharris.com, you'll get our meditations that 1265 01:13:18.270 --> 01:13:21.090 come with each of our Monday, Wednesday episodes. You'll also 1266 01:13:21.489 --> 01:13:24.430 get access to our weekly live meditation and Q & 1267 01:13:24.069 --> 01:13:27.649 A sessions. Christiana will be doing our next one tomorrow 1268 01:13:28.090 --> 01:13:31.970 at 4 Eastern. We do these every Tuesday at 4. Also, 1269 01:13:31.989 --> 01:13:33.789 don't forget the two events I've got coming up. If 1270 01:13:33.829 --> 01:13:36.229 you want to come meditate with me in person, New 1271 01:13:36.270 --> 01:13:38.970 York City on the 18th with the great comedian Pete Holmes, 1272 01:13:38.989 --> 01:13:43.039 and then on the 23rd, a little event at Troutbeck, 1273 01:13:43.140 --> 01:13:46.520 the hotel in the Hudson Valley. Links in the show notes. Finally, 1274 01:13:46.539 --> 01:13:48.060 thank you to everybody who worked so hard to make 1275 01:13:48.100 --> 01:13:51.649 this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasili. 1276 01:13:51.659 --> 01:13:54.250 Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks 1277 01:13:54.289 --> 01:13:57.369 over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. 1278 01:13:57.409 --> 01:14:00.789 Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Kashmir is our 1279 01:14:00.829 --> 01:14:04.430 executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote 1280 01:14:04.600 --> 01:14:04.949 our theme.