Full Transcript for How to Handle Difficult People | Dawn Mauricio

00:02:03.890 --> 00:02:11.750 started with Dawn Mauricio right after this. Dawn Mauricio, thanks 37 00:02:11.770 --> 00:02:12.530 for coming on the show. 38 00:02:13.189 --> 00:02:14.069 Thanks for having me. 39 00:02:14.090 --> 00:02:15.629 It's great to see you again. 40 00:02:15.810 --> 00:02:19.580 We spent some time together recording videos for the Work 41 00:02:19.620 --> 00:02:21.539 Life Challenge, and now I get to have you on 42 00:02:21.560 --> 00:02:24.379 the podcast, so it's a double whammy for me. 43 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:28.979 Yeah, it's really exciting. I just admire so many of 44 00:02:29.020 --> 00:02:31.560 the people that have come through on the podcast, and 45 00:02:31.639 --> 00:02:34.020 so I'm just honored to be here. 46 00:02:34.819 --> 00:02:37.289 We're honored to have you. You're in good company. 47 00:02:37.710 --> 00:02:40.129 There's so many work-related issues I want to talk about 48 00:02:40.169 --> 00:02:42.449 with you, but I'm going to jump to what seems 49 00:02:42.490 --> 00:02:45.370 to be maybe the juiciest, which is how to handle 50 00:02:46.050 --> 00:02:50.409 jerks at work. This is something you and I spoke 51 00:02:50.460 --> 00:02:53.949 about when we were filming the videos for the challenge. 52 00:02:54.810 --> 00:02:56.530 Before you and I talk now, I actually want to 53 00:02:56.569 --> 00:03:00.599 play a clip of me and you talking a few 54 00:03:00.639 --> 00:03:02.840 weeks ago that we'll be using as part of the challenge. 55 00:03:02.860 --> 00:03:04.560 So let's listen to that clip and then we'll talk 56 00:03:04.580 --> 00:03:08.259 for real on the back end. We've been talking about, 57 00:03:08.319 --> 00:03:11.349 you know, how to have better relationships overall, how to 58 00:03:11.389 --> 00:03:14.009 stay connected with our coworkers and members of our family. 59 00:03:14.830 --> 00:03:16.969 But what do we do when we're dealing with somebody 60 00:03:16.990 --> 00:03:18.430 who's pretty deeply unpleasant? 61 00:03:19.650 --> 00:03:20.039 That is. 62 00:03:20.659 --> 00:03:23.479 a great challenge that a lot of us, all of 63 00:03:23.580 --> 00:03:29.340 us have. And sometimes we come into this meditation practice 64 00:03:29.400 --> 00:03:32.659 thinking that the goal is to have an open heart, 65 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:36.300 jam it open and love everyone, when that is just 66 00:03:36.360 --> 00:03:39.409 not possible with some people. There are some people that 67 00:03:39.469 --> 00:03:43.210 are just really challenging, even triggering for us. And so 68 00:03:43.250 --> 00:03:45.610 in those moments, what we're really just trying to do is, 69 00:03:45.689 --> 00:03:49.469 can we tolerate them? Can we accept them? Wish them well, 70 00:03:49.550 --> 00:03:51.870 but from afar, for example. 71 00:03:53.569 --> 00:03:53.930 Okay. 72 00:03:54.889 --> 00:03:58.250 But I imagine some people are thinking, I can't get 73 00:03:58.590 --> 00:04:00.590 to even the lower bar that you've

set there. 74 00:04:00.629 --> 00:04:01.530 I can't get. 75 00:04:01.389 --> 00:04:06.090 To toleration and wishing well because these people or this 76 00:04:06.159 --> 00:04:08.659 person is just so unacceptable. 77 00:04:09.479 --> 00:04:14.879 Yeah. And That's really normal. And even though sometimes we 78 00:04:14.939 --> 00:04:18.149 might get to a moment of tolerance with somebody, it 79 00:04:18.189 --> 00:04:20.970 doesn't mean that it stays there either. They could go 80 00:04:21.029 --> 00:04:23.970 and do the next jerky thing, and then we're back 81 00:04:23.990 --> 00:04:27.509 to really struggling with them. And so I think of 82 00:04:27.589 --> 00:04:30.470 this spectrum, and this is how I think of loving 83 00:04:30.490 --> 00:04:34.500 kindness practice, how sometimes we might aspire to be loving 84 00:04:34.540 --> 00:04:37.459 and kind, but then with people like that, it's really, 85 00:04:37.500 --> 00:04:40.160 really hard to be loving and kind. And so to 86 00:04:40.199 --> 00:04:43.509 think of, say, the opposite of loving kindness, which is hate. 87 00:04:44.209 --> 00:04:47.629 And so between that, that's often where I live and 88 00:04:48.310 --> 00:04:51.670 how I interact with all these people. And so if 89 00:04:51.730 --> 00:04:54.569 I think of the lowest bar being hate, well, then 90 00:04:54.589 --> 00:04:56.529 a little bit inward from. 91 00:04:56.430 --> 00:04:56.750 That or. 92 00:05:03.019 --> 00:05:07.319 Not hate them, even if that's temporarily while they're in 93 00:05:07.379 --> 00:05:10.819 my face. And then I might go back to really struggling. 94 00:05:10.899 --> 00:05:13.839 And then some days if they've slept well and I've 95 00:05:13.879 --> 00:05:15.660 slept well and we're both in a good mood, then 96 00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:17.779 I might be able to accept them, wish them well 97 00:05:17.819 --> 00:05:20.579 from afar, as we heard in that clip. And other 98 00:05:20.620 --> 00:05:24.870 days it might not be that. So I think expecting 99 00:05:24.939 --> 00:05:31.459 ourselves to have this very predictable relationship with or view 100 00:05:31.560 --> 00:05:36.220 of somebody that's challenging can be unrealistic. And so just 101 00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:40.370 acknowledging that it is something that changes from day to day, 102 00:05:40.449 --> 00:05:43.410 moment to moment, and then to set the bar really low. 103 00:05:44.509 --> 00:05:47.189 That's kind of my motto because it allows me to 104 00:05:47.230 --> 00:05:50.310 be really kind to myself and As I try to 105 00:05:50.370 --> 00:05:54.449 navigate challenging people while trying to live by certain values. 106 00:05:54.889 --> 00:05:56.990 So set the bar low, which is can I just 107 00:05:57.110 --> 00:06:00.029 not hate them today? Can I just not hate them 108 00:06:00.110 --> 00:06:03.149 for now? And then hope for the best and go 109 00:06:03.189 --> 00:06:03.670 from there. 110 00:06:03.689 --> 00:06:09.480 So clawing your way to temporary neutrality is what you're describing. 111 00:06:10.689 --> 00:06:15.410 Yeah, you know, anything helps, I think, because my experience, 112 00:06:15.550 --> 00:06:18.160 I love that clawing the way it certainly does feel 113 00:06:18.199 --> 00:06:21.800 like that at times. But my experience is if I 114 00:06:21.860 --> 00:06:25.000 spend time in the realm of hate, then I start 115 00:06:25.060 --> 00:06:28.839 dehumanizing the person. And as soon as I dehumanize them 116 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:33.920 regularly and for long periods, then I can cause real harm. 117 00:06:34.759 --> 00:06:38.459 And so I find that in this meditation practice, there's 118 00:06:38.540 --> 00:06:41.360 so many tips and tricks of how we could continue 119 00:06:41.459 --> 00:06:46.120 humanizing the people we find challenging. Sometimes with loving kindness practice, 120 00:06:46.519 --> 00:06:49.389 it might include something like imagining this person as a 121 00:06:49.449 --> 00:06:54.629 young child themselves, or maybe even imagining them having their 122 00:06:54.769 --> 00:06:57.470 own difficulties in their life, which causes them to be 123 00:06:57.529 --> 00:07:01.350 this way or whatever. And so, yeah, for me, it's just, 124 00:07:01.750 --> 00:07:05.040 how can I... in very simplistic terms, how can I 125 00:07:05.160 --> 00:07:08.120 at the very least not spend time or too much 126 00:07:08.180 --> 00:07:09.079 time hating them? 127 00:07:10.689 --> 00:07:13.670 You've invoked loving kindness meditation a couple times. I think 128 00:07:13.709 --> 00:07:16.279 most people who listen to the show, certainly people who've 129 00:07:16.300 --> 00:07:18.339 listened to it for a while know what loving kindness 130 00:07:18.379 --> 00:07:21.259 meditation is, but there may be, I hope there are people, 131 00:07:21.620 --> 00:07:24.600 this is their first time listening or they're so new 132 00:07:24.620 --> 00:07:26.740 that they haven't heard that term come up yet in 133 00:07:26.819 --> 00:07:30.410 any of the interviews. So can you describe what, you know, 134 00:07:30.449 --> 00:07:33.769 from a very basic blocking and tackling level, what is 135 00:07:33.850 --> 00:07:36.970 loving kindness meditation and how would we apply it to 136 00:07:37.029 --> 00:07:37.949 the jerk in the office? 137 00:07:38.870 --> 00:07:43.930 Mm-hmm. Loving kindness meditation is this practice that helps us 138 00:07:43.990 --> 00:07:49.649 cultivate goodwill or benevolence for others and ourselves. And a 139 00:07:50.129 --> 00:07:54.810 way that it is often taught is to recite phrases like, 140 00:07:55.120 --> 00:07:58.240 may I be happy and healthy? May I be free 141 00:07:58.300 --> 00:08:01.939 from danger? And then we just really repeat those phrases 142 00:08:02.079 --> 00:08:04.860 over and over until at some point it sticks. It's 143 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:08.689 like we're planting seeds. And then when we think of 144 00:08:09.329 --> 00:08:11.569 others in

our life, we don't go right away to 145 00:08:11.610 --> 00:08:14.370 the jerk in the office, but we'll start with someone 146 00:08:14.410 --> 00:08:16.970 that it's easy for us to care for. So like 147 00:08:17.389 --> 00:08:21.160 a benefactor, a loved one, and then we'll wish them well. 148 00:08:21.420 --> 00:08:23.699 May you be happy and healthy. May you be safe. 149 00:08:24.420 --> 00:08:26.759 And then we eventually move on to a neutral person. 150 00:08:27.399 --> 00:08:29.860 And then once the heart or once the mind is 151 00:08:29.980 --> 00:08:34.360 primed for this quality, then we would try and send 152 00:08:34.399 --> 00:08:37.659 loving kindness to a challenging person like that person in 153 00:08:37.700 --> 00:08:40.419 the office. The idea that we don't want to start 154 00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:43.279 with the most challenging person in our life because that 155 00:08:43.320 --> 00:08:48.039 could be discouraging. So we start with maybe the coworker 156 00:08:48.110 --> 00:08:51.049 who didn't return your favorite pen. And then after you 157 00:08:51.090 --> 00:08:52.629 move up to the jerk. 158 00:08:53.629 --> 00:08:57.070 Just a technical note here on loving kindness practice. Sometimes 159 00:08:57.129 --> 00:09:01.370 it's easier for me as somebody who's a devout anti-sentimentalist. 160 00:09:01.389 --> 00:09:03.529 Sometimes it's easier for me to call it just friendliness 161 00:09:03.649 --> 00:09:08.029 instead of loving kindness. I learned this practice from a 162 00:09:08.110 --> 00:09:10.629 great teacher by the name of Spring Washam. And about 163 00:09:10.730 --> 00:09:14.110 three years ago, I had the incredible good fortune to 164 00:09:14.190 --> 00:09:18.820 do a one-on-one loving kindness retreat with her, which we 165 00:09:18.860 --> 00:09:22.059 filmed and will release to the public at the right time. 166 00:09:22.659 --> 00:09:25.149 And the way she taught it, especially. 167 00:09:24.870 --> 00:09:29.129 Over nine days of silence, was to start with the 168 00:09:29.289 --> 00:09:33.029 easy person. So now when I do this friendliness or 169 00:09:33.090 --> 00:09:36.490 loving kindness practice on my own, I start actually with 170 00:09:36.669 --> 00:09:39.649 two easy people. First, one of our cats and then 171 00:09:39.950 --> 00:09:43.019 my son. And then I put myself in because. I'm 172 00:09:43.379 --> 00:09:46.789 more challenging than any difficult person I can find to me. 173 00:09:47.549 --> 00:09:50.789 And so I've got the juices flowing a little bit 174 00:09:50.870 --> 00:09:54.289 with the cat and my little man, and then I 175 00:09:54.330 --> 00:09:56.629 can slot myself in. And I find that to be 176 00:09:56.649 --> 00:09:59.070 a good way to get the ball rolling. Does that 177 00:09:59.110 --> 00:09:59.679 make sense to you? 178 00:10:00.700 --> 00:10:04.100 Completely. And that's the doorway for so many people. I 179 00:10:04.879 --> 00:10:09.000 think a lot of us struggle with self-esteem, self-confidence. We 180 00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:12.700 might have used for many years or decades self-hatred, self-judgment 181 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:17.440 as a means for motivation. And so suddenly sitting down 182 00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:20.649 and hearing this quality of friendliness or loving kindness and 183 00:10:20.710 --> 00:10:22.710 thinking like, oh, okay, now I just got to recite 184 00:10:22.750 --> 00:10:26.929 these phrases. It could be really challenging. Just if we 185 00:10:26.990 --> 00:10:30.289 haven't practiced being loving toward ourself, it's almost impossible to 186 00:10:30.330 --> 00:10:34.769 suddenly just conjure that feeling up because our meditation teacher 187 00:10:34.929 --> 00:10:36.559 or an app is telling us to do so in 188 00:10:36.580 --> 00:10:40.720 that moment. And so what I love about the practice 189 00:10:40.759 --> 00:10:43.879 of friendliness or loving kindness is that there's no right 190 00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:47.450 or wrong way to do it. It's just whatever can 191 00:10:47.710 --> 00:10:51.919 start opening that door for you. And so for you, 192 00:10:52.159 --> 00:10:55.259 it's thinking of your cat and your son. And for 193 00:10:55.320 --> 00:10:58.879 some people, it could be starting with an animal, a 194 00:10:58.940 --> 00:11:02.149 child in their life. And then eventually, even before they 195 00:11:02.169 --> 00:11:06.350 start reciting phrases for themselves, they'll imagine the cat and 196 00:11:06.389 --> 00:11:09.340 the child turning back to look at them or look 197 00:11:09.379 --> 00:11:14.279 at you, for example, and then say, hey, dad, hey, human. 198 00:11:14.299 --> 00:11:18.080 I'm imagining your cat dresses you like that. And then 199 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:21.519 sending you loving kindness before you're able to send that 200 00:11:21.559 --> 00:11:24.570 to yourself. And so that's just another way to do it. 201 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:29.450 And so I say whatever works, whatever helps people soften 202 00:11:29.649 --> 00:11:33.730 and start priming the heart or the mind for this friendliness. 203 00:11:33.750 --> 00:11:36.809 It's hard for me to reverse the gaze with my 204 00:11:37.340 --> 00:11:40.059 hat and my son because my cat looks at me 205 00:11:40.159 --> 00:11:43.429 as a pincushion and source of food. I literally have 206 00:11:43.570 --> 00:11:48.169 a claw-shaped scar on my hip from him grabbing me 207 00:11:48.210 --> 00:11:52.169 the other day and wanting attention. And my son commonly 208 00:11:52.210 --> 00:11:56.690 refers to me as dummy or dumb daddy. So those 209 00:11:56.730 --> 00:11:58.110 aren't my primary sources of. 210 00:11:59.320 --> 00:12:00.080 Work in progress. 211 00:12:00.100 --> 00:12:03.629 Yes, work in progress. Okay, so on this issue of dealing. 212 00:12:03.450 --> 00:12:06.110 With difficult people at work, we got a voicemail from 213 00:12:06.169 --> 00:12:08.009 one of our listeners who had a question about this. 214

00:12:08.049 --> 00:12:10.220 So let's play that voicemail so we can keep going 215 00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:12.179 with this very rich vein here. 216 00:12:12.200 --> 00:12:17.440 Hi, Dan and the 10% team. I'm JJ from San Francisco. 217 00:12:17.559 --> 00:12:20.970 And my question is, how can we use mindfulness to 218 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:26.309 become better collaborators, you know, to shape more constructive dialogue 219 00:12:26.429 --> 00:12:30.929 on work in progress as they're being shaped? And conversely, 220 00:12:30.970 --> 00:12:34.470 what are sort of the healthy strategies we can use 221 00:12:34.529 --> 00:12:37.529 when our blood starts to boil, when things don't go 222 00:12:37.610 --> 00:12:41.000 our way or we think some bad decisions are being made? 223 00:12:41.820 --> 00:12:43.759 We'd love any input on that. Thanks. 224 00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:45.679 Thank you, JJ. 225 00:12:46.159 --> 00:12:48.399 Every time I hear one of these voicemails from our listeners, 226 00:12:48.440 --> 00:12:51.669 I'm so glad that there's somebody here for me to 227 00:12:51.690 --> 00:12:54.070 talk to who actually knows what she's talking about, so 228 00:12:54.149 --> 00:12:54.529 I don't have. 229 00:12:54.470 --> 00:12:56.570 To answer it. So I will shut up and let 230 00:12:56.590 --> 00:12:57.649 you take that one, Donn. 231 00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:03.129 Thanks, Dan, for throwing the ball to me. One thing 232 00:13:03.230 --> 00:13:06.070 maybe as a disclaimer is that some folks tend to 233 00:13:06.129 --> 00:13:11.389 think that meditation teachers or people who practice meditation haven't 234 00:13:11.450 --> 00:13:15.409 figured out. And I just want to say that this 235 00:13:15.529 --> 00:13:19.230 is something that I also struggle with. And it could 236 00:13:19.250 --> 00:13:21.549 be in the workplace. It could be with my family. 237 00:13:22.330 --> 00:13:25.549 And so it's just really trial and error using or 238 00:13:25.629 --> 00:13:30.299 trusting in the practice of meditation. And so one thing 239 00:13:30.350 --> 00:13:34.350 that I really appreciate about meditation is that I have 240 00:13:34.470 --> 00:13:39.830 more chance to step out of reactivity and more ability 241 00:13:39.990 --> 00:13:45.730 to be responsive. And it might look similar on the surface, 242 00:13:45.789 --> 00:13:49.620 but it's more rooted in a conscious choice. And often 243 00:13:49.649 --> 00:13:51.820 when I have that pause to make somewhat of a 244 00:13:51.860 --> 00:13:56.620 conscious choice, there's a reflection on what would be the 245 00:13:56.679 --> 00:14:00.440 least harmful thing Or what would be the most constructive 246 00:14:00.539 --> 00:14:03.259 could be another way to think of that question. And 247 00:14:03.379 --> 00:14:10.039 so just the pausing and then the constructive dialogue piece, 248 00:14:11.019 --> 00:14:14.129 for me, what mindfulness has really helped me with is 249 00:14:15.529 --> 00:14:19.750 I own up and take

responsibility for how I'm feeling, 250 00:14:19.950 --> 00:14:24.370 even if it's because of what someone else has said 251 00:14:24.529 --> 00:14:28.299 or done. But I take responsibility for the ways that 252 00:14:28.340 --> 00:14:30.909 it's impacting me. And then I communicate from there. I 253 00:14:30.950 --> 00:14:34.570 might say like, hey, that doesn't sit well with me. 254 00:14:34.730 --> 00:14:38.669 I'm feeling tense about this, et cetera. And then because 255 00:14:38.740 --> 00:14:41.860 it might come out a little less of an attack 256 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:45.639 on the person per se, then there's an ability for 257 00:14:45.679 --> 00:14:49.120 them to hear me a little bit more. The one 258 00:14:49.220 --> 00:14:52.480 thing that I find is sometimes disappointing is I could 259 00:14:52.500 --> 00:14:55.559 be doing all of this internal work, trying to communicate 260 00:14:55.620 --> 00:15:00.529 constructively and in a non-harmful way. But just because I'm 261 00:15:00.570 --> 00:15:03.470 doing this work, it doesn't guarantee that the person who's 262 00:15:03.549 --> 00:15:06.649 listening or on the receiving end is necessarily going to 263 00:15:06.730 --> 00:15:10.250 reciprocate that. And so that's the hard part sometimes or 264 00:15:10.289 --> 00:15:11.500 the discouraging part. 265 00:15:13.059 --> 00:15:15.899 Yes, but you can't control that. All you can control 266 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:18.820 is what are you bringing to the situation? And When 267 00:15:18.860 --> 00:15:20.679 I heard you talk there about sort of owning up 268 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:23.019 to what you're feeling and bringing it to the table, 269 00:15:23.480 --> 00:15:27.980 that is a tactic that my communications coaches, who I've 270 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:31.940 mentioned several times on this show, their names are Mudita 271 00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:33.679 Nisker and Dan Klerman. 272 00:15:34.340 --> 00:15:36.960 Can Google them. They're amazing, and they're about to come 273 00:15:36.980 --> 00:15:37.539 out with a new book. 274 00:15:38.059 --> 00:15:41.340 They call what you just described, they call it reporting. 275 00:15:41.779 --> 00:15:45.720 So you can, in the moment, just report, hey, this 276 00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:47.720 is what's going on for me. You don't have to 277 00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:50.090 blame the other person. You don't have to say, you 278 00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:52.889 did this, and now I feel this way. Just to say, 279 00:15:52.970 --> 00:15:55.370 you know, right now I'm feeling a little confused, or 280 00:15:55.409 --> 00:15:58.049 right now, you know, some ancient stuff is being triggered, 281 00:15:58.090 --> 00:16:00.090 and I can feel some anger coming up, and so 282 00:16:00.149 --> 00:16:02.710 I either want to bring that into the room so 283 00:16:02.750 --> 00:16:05.009 you're aware of it, or maybe we need to take 284 00:16:05.049 --> 00:16:07.529 a pause and revisit this. But I really do want 285 00:16:07.549 --> 00:16:09.970 to revisit this, but right now I may not have 286 00:16:09.990 --> 00:16:11.889 the resources. Does that all land for you? 287 00:16:12.730 --> 00:16:13.049 Yeah. 288 00:16:13.250 --> 00:16:16.309 And that leads into the second part of the question 289 00:16:16.370 --> 00:16:19.509 that the listener sent in, which was, what are some 290 00:16:19.570 --> 00:16:23.559 healthy or helpful strategies for when your blood feels like 291 00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:27.620 it's boiling or there's some bad decisions being made? And 292 00:16:27.659 --> 00:16:33.259 I think recognizing that in that moment, we're starting to 293 00:16:33.340 --> 00:16:36.850 see red, which takes mindfulness. And it's really hard because 294 00:16:37.230 --> 00:16:41.009 sometimes it can take over. And then we might say, okay, 295 00:16:41.110 --> 00:16:43.730 I need to pause on this because I know I'm 296 00:16:43.769 --> 00:16:46.379 not happy with how this is proceeding, but I don't 297 00:16:46.460 --> 00:16:48.899 think I could actually communicate in a way that could 298 00:16:48.940 --> 00:16:53.139 be clear or constructive to this process. So I'm going 299 00:16:53.159 --> 00:16:55.879 to need to take a step back. I feel like 300 00:16:56.759 --> 00:17:00.240 Our body communicates to us all the time. It's telling 301 00:17:00.299 --> 00:17:04.500 us when we're uneasy, a boundary maybe has been violated 302 00:17:04.519 --> 00:17:08.309 or something is really bumping up against our values, let's say. 303 00:17:08.809 --> 00:17:11.609 And so to listen to when the blood boils, when 304 00:17:11.789 --> 00:17:15.210 we're feeling a lot of tension. However, I think it's 305 00:17:15.430 --> 00:17:19.789 when we let that emotion take over. then that's where 306 00:17:19.829 --> 00:17:23.039 it could be problematic. And so, for example, if I'm 307 00:17:23.259 --> 00:17:27.099 angry in that moment, my anger just wants to hurt people. 308 00:17:27.420 --> 00:17:31.319 And it's not very constructive. But if I take that pause, 309 00:17:32.180 --> 00:17:37.670 I'm with my anger, I let it move through, through, say, 310 00:17:37.809 --> 00:17:41.490 meditation and just listening into it. What does it need? 311 00:17:41.569 --> 00:17:43.789 What is it trying to tell me? So I can 312 00:17:43.869 --> 00:17:46.589 come out on the other side of that anger, having 313 00:17:46.730 --> 00:17:50.289 cultivated or retracted some of the lessons that the anger 314 00:17:50.329 --> 00:17:54.500 was trying to tell me. So, for example, like I 315 00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:59.559 can communicate really firmly and clearly what feels appropriate in 316 00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:02.240 a given moment because I've taken that pause and not 317 00:18:02.279 --> 00:18:03.559 let that anger take over. 318 00:18:03.579 --> 00:18:08.519 I find it's useful if you're reporting and you're going 319 00:18:08.539 --> 00:18:11.789 to call for a pause because To say, I'm going 320

00:18:11.809 --> 00:18:13.910 to come back to this. I'm not slamming the door 321 00:18:13.930 --> 00:18:15.650 and walking. I'm not hanging up on you. I am 322 00:18:15.829 --> 00:18:18.289 committed to dealing with this. I just want to do 323 00:18:18.349 --> 00:18:21.460 it from the sanest place available to me, and it's 324 00:18:21.500 --> 00:18:22.359 not available right now. 325 00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:26.720 Yeah, I love that tactic. It's actually something that my 326 00:18:26.779 --> 00:18:30.470 partner and I use in our relationship as well. Usually 327 00:18:30.490 --> 00:18:33.160 it's me who gets a little too fired up. And 328 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:36.619 then I want to often storm out and we've come 329 00:18:36.680 --> 00:18:39.400 up with this. I need to give him a timeframe 330 00:18:39.480 --> 00:18:42.700 as to when I'll return to it because otherwise it's 331 00:18:42.740 --> 00:18:45.309 too up in the air. And it's just like, are 332 00:18:45.329 --> 00:18:47.430 we sweeping this under the rug? Will we come back 333 00:18:47.470 --> 00:18:50.369 to this? This feels important, et cetera. So I love 334 00:18:50.410 --> 00:18:53.890 that idea of just reminding the person that no, this 335 00:18:54.029 --> 00:18:57.430 is important. I'm taking this step back for a particular 336 00:18:57.490 --> 00:19:00.210 reason and we're going to come back to it. 337 00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:04.380 Just before we move on to a new topic, anything 338 00:19:04.460 --> 00:19:07.410 else you want to say on this issue of dealing 339 00:19:07.450 --> 00:19:11.529 with jerks, keeping yourself regulated so that you can communicate 340 00:19:11.549 --> 00:19:14.190 what you want to communicate without losing it or becoming 341 00:19:14.230 --> 00:19:14.829 a doormat? 342 00:19:15.789 --> 00:19:19.769 Yeah. I think what always comes to mind for me 343 00:19:20.140 --> 00:19:23.529 is that we're not trying to use these practices to 344 00:19:23.650 --> 00:19:27.069 gloss over and to, as we heard in the clip 345 00:19:27.089 --> 00:19:30.829 from the challenge, to jam our hearts open. So I 346 00:19:30.869 --> 00:19:33.150 don't believe that that's the goal, but it's more like 347 00:19:33.190 --> 00:19:36.599 how can we honor what we're feeling, but continue to 348 00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:39.839 respond and to act in a way that doesn't cause 349 00:19:40.380 --> 00:19:43.880 too much harm or doesn't cause more harm than might 350 00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:48.599 be necessary in a given moment. So not bypassing, not 351 00:19:48.759 --> 00:19:52.710 glossing over our feelings. because it's all complex. We can 352 00:19:52.750 --> 00:19:56.970 feel really angry, but also there's wisdom in that anger. 353 00:19:57.299 --> 00:20:00.660 And so to not mute the blood boiling, for example. 354 00:20:01.599 --> 00:20:03.240 Yeah, I like what you said about the fact that 355 00:20:03.339 --> 00:20:06.180 the body is sending up all these signals all the time. 356 00:20:06.220 --> 00:20:07.960 And this is one of the great cliches that we 357 00:20:07.980 --> 00:20:10.880 can tune out because it's become a cliche that listening 358 00:20:10.940 --> 00:20:13.839 to the body, but you actually should do it because 359 00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:16.119 your body is sending you all sorts of signals right now. 360 00:20:16.140 --> 00:20:20.420 It is the organism trying to protect itself. And tuning 361 00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:23.559 into that can be a really great way to surf 362 00:20:24.519 --> 00:20:28.319 these emotions, which we all have. It's non-negotiable rather than 363 00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:32.509 drowning in the emotions. And meditation is massively helpful here 364 00:20:32.529 --> 00:20:36.970 in terms of just being aware, it awake and not 365 00:20:37.029 --> 00:20:38.849 yanked around subconsciously? 366 00:20:40.529 --> 00:20:44.410 Completely. If we ignore the signals of the body long enough, 367 00:20:44.539 --> 00:20:48.440 it becomes tension and it could be say like migraines 368 00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:53.440 or other things. And one of my teachers from yoga, 369 00:20:53.579 --> 00:20:57.279 Jill Miller, would say the issues are in our tissues. 370 00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:01.640 And so If we don't address them and mindfulness or 371 00:21:01.720 --> 00:21:05.759 meditation helps us take responsibility, learn how to communicate them. 372 00:21:05.779 --> 00:21:08.549 If we don't do that, then they kind of just 373 00:21:09.109 --> 00:21:12.170 add up being some sort of body armor. And I 374 00:21:12.349 --> 00:21:15.930 don't know about you, Dan, but I know that sometimes 375 00:21:16.109 --> 00:21:18.910 I've been getting a massage and then I start crying 376 00:21:18.970 --> 00:21:20.950 on the table because there's just stuff that I was 377 00:21:21.009 --> 00:21:24.869 holding on to that was finally being released. And so 378 00:21:25.690 --> 00:21:27.519 we pay the price one way or another. 379 00:21:27.539 --> 00:21:33.640 Yeah. I don't cry. I'm a man of steel. No, 380 00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:35.680 I think it's just obviously true. It's in there. 381 00:21:36.380 --> 00:21:38.190 Either you have the choice about whether to look at it, 382 00:21:38.390 --> 00:21:40.490 and if you don't, then you're likely to be owned 383 00:21:40.509 --> 00:21:44.630 by it. Much more of my conversation with Don Mauricio 384 00:21:44.730 --> 00:21:53.819 right after this. This brings us back to the subject 385 00:21:53.859 --> 00:21:58.130 of emotions, which... was another thing we discussed in filming 386 00:21:58.170 --> 00:22:00.250 the work-life challenge and is something we're going to talk 387 00:22:00.269 --> 00:22:02.529 about a lot during the challenge, which everybody should do. 388 00:22:03.210 --> 00:22:05.150 So again, I do want to play a clip of 389 00:22:05.170 --> 00:22:07.890 me and you talking about emotions in the workplace, and 390 00:22:07.910 --> 00:22:09.509 then we'll talk about it on

the other side. 391 00:22:10.710 --> 00:22:14.470 So, There's often this image that's given when we talk 392 00:22:14.509 --> 00:22:17.690 about emotions. And in this case, let's say these unpleasant, say, 393 00:22:17.869 --> 00:22:21.890 angry or fiery emotions where we're driving in a car. 394 00:22:22.990 --> 00:22:25.579 We still want to be the drivers. These emotions are 395 00:22:25.619 --> 00:22:28.279 kind of like the kids. They're in the backseat. They're 396 00:22:28.339 --> 00:22:31.019 welcome to be in the backseat. We don't want them 397 00:22:31.079 --> 00:22:33.019 to drive the car, but we also don't want to 398 00:22:33.059 --> 00:22:36.059 put them in the trunk despite our feelings about them. 399 00:22:37.220 --> 00:22:39.140 Dawn, that analogy makes a ton of sense. 400 00:22:40.039 --> 00:22:44.220 The next logical question is I've have a lifetime of 401 00:22:44.380 --> 00:22:46.549 practice putting the emotions in the trunk. 402 00:22:47.569 --> 00:22:48.890 How do I not do that? 403 00:22:49.829 --> 00:22:54.130 Yeah, a lot of us do because we live in 404 00:22:54.210 --> 00:22:57.509 this society that places a lot of value on the 405 00:22:57.609 --> 00:23:02.809 intellect or for me, daughter of immigrant parents for whom 406 00:23:03.049 --> 00:23:05.809 they were just simply trying to survive when they came 407 00:23:05.869 --> 00:23:09.619 to Canada. There was no room to talk about feelings. 408 00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:12.029 It was just like, what did you do? And don't 409 00:23:12.089 --> 00:23:15.789 rock the boat. Stay under the radar kind of thing. 410 00:23:16.589 --> 00:23:19.329 And so for different reasons, a lot of us have 411 00:23:19.349 --> 00:23:23.230 these decades long experience putting all the feelings in the trunk. 412 00:23:23.809 --> 00:23:26.799 And I kind of think of it as learning a 413 00:23:26.859 --> 00:23:30.720 new language where we're trying to become emotionally fluent and 414 00:23:31.410 --> 00:23:34.839 And just because we realize we want to be emotionally 415 00:23:34.930 --> 00:23:37.079 fluent all of a sudden, we can't put the pressure 416 00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:41.380 on ourselves to be completely bilingual or trilingual by tomorrow 417 00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:44.319 or something like that, but to take baby steps like 418 00:23:44.380 --> 00:23:47.640 we would when we're just learning any language. One of 419 00:23:47.700 --> 00:23:52.329 the ways that has helped me really reclaim and get 420 00:23:52.380 --> 00:23:56.650 to know emotions for myself was using the acronym RAIN 421 00:23:56.829 --> 00:24:01.569 that is often used when dealing with overwhelming emotions. So 422 00:24:01.690 --> 00:24:06.690 the acronym uses R for recognize, A for allow or accept, 423 00:24:07.450 --> 00:24:13.349 I for interest or investigate, and N has been now 424 00:24:13.569 --> 00:24:17.750 used more lately as nature or nurture even. And that's 425 00:24:17.789 --> 00:24:20.869 an acronym that came

from Michelle McDonald, I believe coined 426 00:24:20.930 --> 00:24:26.210 in the 1980s or so, but really popularized by Tara Brach. However, 427 00:24:26.539 --> 00:24:29.259 my problem with that meditation when I would hear it 428 00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:32.930 on retreat was it with the R for recognize. And 429 00:24:33.049 --> 00:24:35.829 often the prompt with that is, well, what is here? 430 00:24:36.230 --> 00:24:40.650 What am I feeling? And so I would get angry, 431 00:24:40.930 --> 00:24:42.690 although I wouldn't know I would be angry in that 432 00:24:42.730 --> 00:24:46.599 moment because I wasn't emotionally fluent yet. But I just 433 00:24:46.680 --> 00:24:48.720 felt as if like, well, I don't know what's here. 434 00:24:49.059 --> 00:24:51.220 I've spent my whole life not knowing what's here. And 435 00:24:51.279 --> 00:24:53.720 now you're telling me just because I'm in this quiet setting, 436 00:24:53.759 --> 00:24:57.509 I'm supposed to know. And then I felt very isolated, 437 00:24:57.589 --> 00:25:00.250 like I must be the only person struggling with this. 438 00:25:00.430 --> 00:25:03.089 Or I'd look around the room, even though we're supposed 439 00:25:03.130 --> 00:25:05.529 to have our eyes closed mostly when we meditate. And 440 00:25:05.589 --> 00:25:08.609 everyone looked like they seemed to have gotten it. And 441 00:25:08.670 --> 00:25:11.799 then I recognized for myself that I needed to simplify 442 00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:15.339 it because I was so disconnected from the side. And 443 00:25:15.420 --> 00:25:19.309 so what I started doing was really simply meditating. well, 444 00:25:19.349 --> 00:25:22.809 what is here? Is it contracted or is it expanded? 445 00:25:23.150 --> 00:25:26.359 Does it feel tense or does it feel spacious? And 446 00:25:26.390 --> 00:25:29.180 that was it. And that's all I did for years, actually, 447 00:25:29.319 --> 00:25:32.200 as I got to know just how my body was 448 00:25:32.259 --> 00:25:35.400 talking to me in regards to my emotions. And then 449 00:25:35.480 --> 00:25:40.119 eventually over time, it would be obvious that one would 450 00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:43.720 be unpleasant, the other pleasant. And that from there, I 451 00:25:43.769 --> 00:25:46.170 would have reactions that I would often want to get 452 00:25:46.269 --> 00:25:50.049 rid of the unpleasantness somehow. And so if, say, I 453 00:25:50.109 --> 00:25:52.890 was feeling angry, but I didn't necessarily know it, but 454 00:25:52.910 --> 00:25:55.730 I was feeling more, say, tense and hot, and it 455 00:25:55.789 --> 00:25:59.329 was unpleasant, well, then I wanted that to go away somehow. 456 00:25:59.410 --> 00:26:02.990 And so just recognizing that the way that I would 457 00:26:03.049 --> 00:26:06.109 want that feeling to go away wasn't always helpful. As 458 00:26:06.170 --> 00:26:08.990 I shared earlier, that was when I would just want 459 00:26:09.029 --> 00:26:12.450 to hurt other people because my anger just would lash 460 00:26:12.529 --> 00:26:18.849 out in that way. And then eventually, sometime later, an 461 00:26:18.890 --> 00:26:22.210 emotion would pop up. It would be like, oh, it's anger. 462 00:26:23.230 --> 00:26:25.529 It wasn't like I went to go looking for it. 463 00:26:25.569 --> 00:26:27.829 It's not like I did this internal interview. Like, is 464 00:26:27.890 --> 00:26:30.380 it anger? No. Is it frustration? 465 00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:31.519 No. 466 00:26:32.019 --> 00:26:35.059 It's just what came up. And at the same time though, 467 00:26:35.099 --> 00:26:38.380 because it was like new to me, the more obvious 468 00:26:38.859 --> 00:26:46.559 expressions of feelings arose, like happy, angry, sad, grieving, but 469 00:26:46.619 --> 00:26:50.839 it wasn't the nuanced versions. And that was fine by me. 470 00:26:51.019 --> 00:26:53.779 And I started getting into, say, looking up the wheel 471 00:26:53.859 --> 00:26:58.180 of emotions where it lists out dozens and dozens of 472 00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:01.470 emotions and the different ways they show up in obvious 473 00:27:01.589 --> 00:27:05.990 and subtle ways. And so by kind of familiarizing myself 474 00:27:06.009 --> 00:27:10.289 with this list, then I got to know that in myself. 475 00:27:10.470 --> 00:27:13.289 But it took years. It took a long time. 476 00:27:14.450 --> 00:27:16.029 So if it took you such a long time, how 477 00:27:16.069 --> 00:27:18.980 could we, how could us mere mortals who are not 478 00:27:19.039 --> 00:27:23.319 trained meditation teachers use RAIN or in any way navigate 479 00:27:23.500 --> 00:27:26.880 our emotions in the workplace where emotions, by the way, 480 00:27:26.940 --> 00:27:28.279 are not often encouraged? 481 00:27:29.299 --> 00:27:29.740 Yeah. 482 00:27:30.460 --> 00:27:35.430 So I think it's just what we've been alluding to already. 483 00:27:35.450 --> 00:27:39.250 It could be just keeping it really simple, knowing that 484 00:27:39.349 --> 00:27:43.259 something's off. Or that we're feeling good about something. So 485 00:27:43.299 --> 00:27:46.460 that's a different version of the contracted or expanded. So 486 00:27:46.539 --> 00:27:49.539 if we're in this meeting and then something's being decided 487 00:27:49.740 --> 00:27:52.920 upon and then we're feeling contracted, we might not know 488 00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:55.930 why yet. We might not know what is being expressed, 489 00:27:55.970 --> 00:27:57.869 but we just know something's off. And then we could 490 00:27:57.890 --> 00:28:02.009 press pause on that if possible. and then circle back 491 00:28:02.069 --> 00:28:04.170 to it. But, you know, I just love what you 492 00:28:04.230 --> 00:28:08.049 said about in the workplace where emotions aren't encouraged. And 493 00:28:08.269 --> 00:28:10.710 I used to work in marketing for a short while, 494 00:28:10.789 --> 00:28:14.930 just one year. And I was totally one of the 495 00:28:15.190 --> 00:28:18.380 people who would cry in her

cubicle because one, I 496 00:28:18.420 --> 00:28:21.079 was just unhappy at that place, but I didn't feel 497 00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:24.880 like I could be myself and show my emotions because 498 00:28:25.059 --> 00:28:28.240 I was afraid that it would be used against me somehow. 499 00:28:28.839 --> 00:28:33.309 And I'm sure there is truth to that, unfortunately, but 500 00:28:33.369 --> 00:28:35.950 I think what could be helpful is how can we 501 00:28:36.210 --> 00:28:39.890 express from these places that are emotional, but not from 502 00:28:39.930 --> 00:28:43.269 the emotion itself. So kind of like what we've been saying, 503 00:28:43.690 --> 00:28:46.789 not when we're in the middle of the emotion, but 504 00:28:46.970 --> 00:28:48.710 when we're more on the other side of it, where 505 00:28:48.730 --> 00:28:53.099 we can extract the lessons and express or communicate the 506 00:28:53.150 --> 00:28:58.210 lessons from that emotion clearly and firmly. Of course, That 507 00:28:58.299 --> 00:29:02.680 just sounds really easy, but it's not. It's a process 508 00:29:02.900 --> 00:29:04.420 and it takes practice. 509 00:29:05.119 --> 00:29:07.680 It takes practice and that's what meditation is all about. 510 00:29:07.700 --> 00:29:10.569 It also just takes kind of living because I'm not 511 00:29:10.609 --> 00:29:13.029 a meditation teacher. I haven't done as much training as you, 512 00:29:13.049 --> 00:29:16.529 but I've done a non-zero amount and it's not uncommon 513 00:29:16.569 --> 00:29:19.170 for me to get carried away by one of my emotions, 514 00:29:19.250 --> 00:29:21.170 usually anger, self-righteous rage. 515 00:29:21.210 --> 00:29:22.779 It's a little specialty of mine. 516 00:29:23.019 --> 00:29:25.990 And, you know, you just Over time, hopefully, you get 517 00:29:26.049 --> 00:29:28.130 better at not biting the hook. 518 00:29:29.420 --> 00:29:30.960 And that's the goal. 519 00:29:30.980 --> 00:29:32.819 And then you can come back once you've calmed down 520 00:29:32.900 --> 00:29:34.779 and have a conversation that's more reasonable. 521 00:29:36.269 --> 00:29:39.390 Yes. So one of the things, as I was just 522 00:29:39.450 --> 00:29:42.619 listening to you, one of the qualities in Buddhist meditation 523 00:29:42.660 --> 00:29:48.720 that's coming to mind is investigation. But say in layperson's terms, 524 00:29:48.789 --> 00:29:52.400 I'd like to call it post-mortem mindfulness meditation. So our 525 00:29:52.440 --> 00:29:54.519 emotion might have gotten the best of us in a 526 00:29:54.559 --> 00:29:58.259 given moment, but it's not totally lost. Even though in 527 00:29:58.299 --> 00:30:01.420 that moment we were mindless, a little later when we've 528 00:30:01.500 --> 00:30:04.059 cooled down or when we've had a little bit of 529 00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:08.000 space from that situation, we can think back and realize 530 00:30:08.039 --> 00:30:11.180 perhaps with some embarrassment, like, oh, that was really not 531 00:30:11.269 --> 00:30:14.430 cool of me. That was so unwise. I actually just 532 00:30:14.470 --> 00:30:18.730 was so reactive and I hurt people. And so we 533 00:30:18.809 --> 00:30:22.329 could maybe even imagine how we would have done it differently. 534 00:30:23.190 --> 00:30:25.869 And then what I like to think when we do 535 00:30:25.910 --> 00:30:29.079 this post-mortem mindfulness, it's like suddenly the radar or the 536 00:30:29.160 --> 00:30:32.059 feelers are out so that the next time we're in 537 00:30:32.099 --> 00:30:35.759 a similar situation, we can hopefully call to mind this 538 00:30:35.940 --> 00:30:38.240 different or alternative way that we would have liked to 539 00:30:38.279 --> 00:30:41.849 be and then apply it in that moment. But it's 540 00:30:41.890 --> 00:30:44.710 not like a one-to-one situation in my experience. It's like 541 00:30:45.380 --> 00:30:47.660 Often I need to put my foot in my mouth 542 00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:52.069 a few times before I get it right. So it's 543 00:30:52.119 --> 00:30:55.009 not as simple, but it's definitely worth it in my opinion. 544 00:30:55.829 --> 00:30:56.049 Yeah. 545 00:30:56.069 --> 00:30:57.750 I mean, it's better to be putting your foot in 546 00:30:57.789 --> 00:31:02.029 your mouth on a trajectory toward improvement than just putting 547 00:31:02.049 --> 00:31:04.089 your foot in the mouth and never changing. 548 00:31:04.710 --> 00:31:05.009 Yes. 549 00:31:05.690 --> 00:31:06.029 Yes. 550 00:31:07.269 --> 00:31:11.380 So let's talk about another common workplace issue. which is 551 00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:14.200 imposter syndrome. And you and I talked about this during 552 00:31:14.519 --> 00:31:16.559 the recording of the challenge video. So I'm going to 553 00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:19.059 play a little bit of that conversation and then elaborate 554 00:31:19.539 --> 00:31:22.579 upon it on the back end. Let me just drill 555 00:31:22.599 --> 00:31:25.519 down on something you said there, because you were describing 556 00:31:25.579 --> 00:31:30.289 at least one aspect of a psychology that is quite 557 00:31:30.329 --> 00:31:34.250 common in my experience, especially among women, although it's unisex, 558 00:31:34.349 --> 00:31:39.470 which is imposter syndrome. Just this sense, this paranoid sense 559 00:31:39.529 --> 00:31:42.680 that you don't belong, that you're not up to the task. 560 00:31:43.240 --> 00:31:45.829 Any thoughts on how we can use meditation to manage that? 561 00:31:46.180 --> 00:31:49.769 Yeah, it is so common and can be really, really 562 00:31:49.809 --> 00:31:53.390 painful and even debilitating to some extent. The imposter syndrome 563 00:31:53.470 --> 00:31:56.519 is often based or living in the head. But when 564 00:31:56.559 --> 00:31:58.960 we drop into the body and we start feeling, say, 565 00:31:59.559 --> 00:32:02.859 the tightness of the chest or the shortness of breath 566 00:32:03.220 --> 00:32:07.079 or whatever else might come along

with the imposter syndrome, that, again, 567 00:32:07.339 --> 00:32:09.980 is enough to create a little bit of distance. So 568 00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:12.630 even though we might believe in it, we don't have 569 00:32:12.670 --> 00:32:14.730 to buy into it, basically. 570 00:32:15.950 --> 00:32:18.190 Have you struggled at all with imposter syndrome? 571 00:32:19.430 --> 00:32:26.609 Oh, gosh, yes, completely. In almost every avenue of my life. 572 00:32:28.329 --> 00:32:30.730 I used to teach yoga for 13 years, and I 573 00:32:30.829 --> 00:32:33.099 think it took me seven or eight years to get 574 00:32:33.190 --> 00:32:37.740 over my imposter syndrome as a yoga teacher. And then 575 00:32:37.799 --> 00:32:42.680 I became a meditation teacher. And then there's this new 576 00:32:42.740 --> 00:32:46.890 wave of the imposter syndrome. I think even just when 577 00:32:47.029 --> 00:32:51.049 I feel completely honored to participate in a project or 578 00:32:51.089 --> 00:32:54.640 invited on a teaching team, I'm just like, why me? Like, 579 00:32:54.779 --> 00:32:57.440 do they know? I'm tricking them this whole time. They 580 00:32:57.529 --> 00:32:59.970 think I'm a certain way, but I'm really not. And 581 00:33:00.009 --> 00:33:03.849 they're going to find out. So it's something that does 582 00:33:03.950 --> 00:33:09.029 pop up regularly. It was almost debilitating in my first, say, 583 00:33:09.130 --> 00:33:11.799 few years, like maybe 15 years ago or something like 584 00:33:11.859 --> 00:33:15.299 that as a teacher. And now I can see it 585 00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:19.160 more clearly and I don't buy into it. It can 586 00:33:19.220 --> 00:33:25.269 still hurt sometimes. But I can tell myself things like, well, 587 00:33:25.309 --> 00:33:27.960 the people that are inviting me to take part in 588 00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:30.380 this project or to teach on their teams with them, 589 00:33:31.019 --> 00:33:34.099 they don't want to fail. It's not some grand joke 590 00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:38.759 on me. And so I basically borrow their wisdom or 591 00:33:38.819 --> 00:33:41.619 I borrow their confidence in that moment. So they see 592 00:33:41.690 --> 00:33:44.710 something in me that I'm unable to see in that moment. 593 00:33:44.829 --> 00:33:48.450 So I just borrow their eyes until I start feeling 594 00:33:48.849 --> 00:33:51.400 more grounded in my body and I could see what 595 00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:51.960 they see. 596 00:33:53.500 --> 00:33:54.779 Any imposter syndrome today? 597 00:33:56.680 --> 00:34:00.029 Well, the project that was coming to mind, the latest one, 598 00:34:00.089 --> 00:34:02.769 was just the filming that we did for the challenge 599 00:34:02.920 --> 00:34:06.670 and then being on the podcast. Because as I said earlier, 600 00:34:07.450 --> 00:34:10.949 so many of my friends and colleagues and teachers that 601 00:34:11.030 --> 00:34:14.809 I adore have been on this podcast. And I walk 602 00:34:14.849 --> 00:34:18.210

around with my mind all the time. And so I think, well, 603 00:34:18.250 --> 00:34:21.619 what could I possibly have to share And what is 604 00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:25.489 so special about me or whatnot? And so that's the 605 00:34:25.530 --> 00:34:26.690 long answer to yes. 606 00:34:28.949 --> 00:34:30.369 Yeah, well, borrow some of my wisdom. 607 00:34:30.389 --> 00:34:33.969 That part of your mind is misfiring in an attempt 608 00:34:34.010 --> 00:34:37.320 to protect you. But it is definitely a misfiring having 609 00:34:37.380 --> 00:34:41.500 sat with you for hours on camera and off. You 610 00:34:41.659 --> 00:34:45.500 absolutely belong here on this show and as part of 611 00:34:45.559 --> 00:34:46.639 the Work Life Challenge. 612 00:34:47.579 --> 00:34:51.250 Thank you, Dan. I'm happy that this is being recorded 613 00:34:51.510 --> 00:34:54.329 so that I could maybe like create a soundbite out 614 00:34:54.369 --> 00:34:57.130 of it whenever I'm feeling down and play it on loop. 615 00:34:58.489 --> 00:35:01.530 I know you're being semi-facetious there, but let's keep going 616 00:35:01.550 --> 00:35:05.070 because it is so common, imposter syndrome. And so I'm curious, 617 00:35:05.090 --> 00:35:07.889 you know, you talked about borrowing the wisdom of your 618 00:35:08.260 --> 00:35:11.780 collaborators to see in yourself what they clearly see in you. 619 00:35:11.820 --> 00:35:14.820 But are there any other tactics, maybe even through meditation, 620 00:35:14.860 --> 00:35:18.280 that can help you not be so dominated by this? 621 00:35:19.840 --> 00:35:23.039 Yeah, as mentioned in that clip that we heard, it's 622 00:35:23.119 --> 00:35:27.980 dropping into the body. That's my go-to, mostly because the 623 00:35:28.039 --> 00:35:33.070 thoughts of imposter syndrome are just thoughts. They're really that. However, 624 00:35:33.869 --> 00:35:37.769 if I believe it enough, then they can swirl and 625 00:35:37.849 --> 00:35:41.269 swirl and then become suddenly this like tornado that I 626 00:35:41.309 --> 00:35:45.159 can't get out of. And so if I can, as 627 00:35:45.300 --> 00:35:48.619 soon as possible, I try to remember my body sitting 628 00:35:48.699 --> 00:35:51.829 or standing here maybe holding papers if I'm about to 629 00:35:51.869 --> 00:35:55.000 go into a meeting or a presentation or something like that, 630 00:35:55.639 --> 00:36:00.639 remembering to breathe. And that sounds kind of ironic because 631 00:36:01.320 --> 00:36:04.199 if we're standing and we're alive while we're breathing, but 632 00:36:04.300 --> 00:36:07.610 we tend to breathe very shallowly, if that's a word, 633 00:36:08.190 --> 00:36:10.610 when we're stuck in our head. And so to really 634 00:36:10.650 --> 00:36:15.050 drop in the body. However, just because what's going on 635 00:36:15.090 --> 00:36:17.719 in the head is is unpleasant, it doesn't mean what's 636 00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:19.980 going to be in the body is pleasant. It's going 637 00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:22.579 to be a reflection of what we're thinking. So there's 638 00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:25.940 going to be tension there. We might feel maybe our 639 00:36:25.980 --> 00:36:29.920 hands in cold sweats or whatever our thing is. And 640 00:36:30.039 --> 00:36:33.989 so what dropping into the body does, it brings us 641 00:36:34.090 --> 00:36:38.030 into this moment. Because for me, my imposter syndrome is 642 00:36:38.110 --> 00:36:41.889 not anchored in this moment. The thoughts will be about comparing. 643 00:36:41.989 --> 00:36:44.969 It might be replaying, say, another podcast episode of someone 644 00:36:45.010 --> 00:36:48.480 that I admired and getting lost in that or imagining 645 00:36:49.079 --> 00:36:52.139 a future outcome of some sort. So it's all not 646 00:36:52.219 --> 00:36:55.909 present moment based. And so when I'm in my body, 647 00:36:56.010 --> 00:36:58.570 it brings me to this moment. And in this moment, 648 00:36:58.630 --> 00:37:01.909 I'm reminded that, yeah, I might not be comfortable, but 649 00:37:01.989 --> 00:37:05.949 I'm okay. And I think another thing that comes to 650 00:37:06.010 --> 00:37:10.699 mind is mindfulness or meditation has really helped me lean 651 00:37:10.760 --> 00:37:15.880 into discomfort because sometimes when I'm practicing meditation, or sitting 652 00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:18.739 in my meditation practice, I want to scratch that itch 653 00:37:19.099 --> 00:37:21.860 and I'm not doing it. And it might seem mundane, 654 00:37:22.260 --> 00:37:25.300 but in that moment, I'm cultivating this tolerance for discomfort. 655 00:37:25.880 --> 00:37:29.599 And so when I'm in that presentation at work or 656 00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:33.300 that meeting, and I don't feel like it's going well, 657 00:37:33.559 --> 00:37:36.989 or I'm receiving feedback that is quote unquote constructive, but 658 00:37:37.030 --> 00:37:40.070 it feels like it's critical in a moment, I'm leaning 659 00:37:40.150 --> 00:37:43.570 into discomfort using what I've built on in my meditation 660 00:37:43.610 --> 00:37:46.469 practice to So that I could look at it or 661 00:37:46.989 --> 00:37:49.699 switch my perspective to see it more as growth. Like, 662 00:37:50.179 --> 00:37:52.860 how can my being present for all of that discomfort 663 00:37:52.940 --> 00:37:56.880 during the meeting feed my future actions so that maybe 664 00:37:56.940 --> 00:38:00.940 I'll prepare differently next time or I'll integrate the feedback 665 00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:03.769 that I'm receiving? As opposed to before, I used to 666 00:38:03.809 --> 00:38:08.090 be way more fragile. I used to be very perfection-oriented. 667 00:38:08.269 --> 00:38:10.110 And so if it wasn't perfect, then it was a 668 00:38:10.190 --> 00:38:12.969 complete fail. And then I would fall into like a 669 00:38:13.050 --> 00:38:18.199 shame cycle that could last days. And so now it's 670 00:38:18.239 --> 00:38:23.619 just really uncomfortable, but I see

that the discomfort is 671 00:38:23.719 --> 00:38:26.840 not bad in any way, but it's just something that 672 00:38:26.900 --> 00:38:28.219 I could learn from instead. 673 00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:31.820 Much more of my conversation with Don Mauricio right after this. 674 00:38:37.309 --> 00:38:39.130 Let's do a voicemail. We've got a bunch of voicemails 675 00:38:39.170 --> 00:38:43.710 from our listeners. And this one strikes me as particularly timely. 676 00:38:43.730 --> 00:38:47.590 It has to do with how to create boundaries in 677 00:38:47.639 --> 00:38:50.579 an era of increasing working from home. 678 00:38:50.679 --> 00:38:51.780 So here's that voicemail. 679 00:38:52.519 --> 00:38:56.159 Hi, my name is Eloise Skinner and I am from London. 680 00:38:57.019 --> 00:39:01.440 And my question is about boundaries and specifically the boundaries 681 00:39:01.500 --> 00:39:04.760 between work and life. And I think most of us 682 00:39:04.820 --> 00:39:07.769 will have experienced some erosion of those boundaries over the 683 00:39:07.789 --> 00:39:12.510 past 18 months. And I wondered how you're navigating boundaries 684 00:39:12.829 --> 00:39:16.010 as some of us return to the office and others 685 00:39:16.150 --> 00:39:20.449 of us continue working from home. And also whether meditation 686 00:39:20.530 --> 00:39:24.340 practice can help with boundary setting. So I would love 687 00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:26.019 to hear your thoughts. Thanks so much. 688 00:39:27.739 --> 00:39:29.139 Any thoughts on that question, Dawn? 689 00:39:30.530 --> 00:39:37.820 Yeah, it's something that I'm currently recalibrating or re-navigating because 690 00:39:37.860 --> 00:39:41.119 I think at one point, especially when the pandemic and 691 00:39:41.179 --> 00:39:46.019 lockdown happened, I found a lot of self-soothing in just 692 00:39:46.059 --> 00:39:50.809 my devices and Netflix, social media, YouTube, stuff like that. 693 00:39:51.550 --> 00:39:55.989 And then distinctly feeling in my body that it was 694 00:39:56.090 --> 00:39:59.989 no longer pleasant. It's like I had passed that self-soothing 695 00:40:00.050 --> 00:40:02.929 point and it was just anxiety provoking or it was 696 00:40:02.969 --> 00:40:07.820 just tense. I would not breathe as deeply or just 697 00:40:08.539 --> 00:40:11.099 would really drop into comparing a lot or just feel 698 00:40:11.219 --> 00:40:14.119 overwhelmed all the time with all the emails or whatnot. 699 00:40:14.980 --> 00:40:18.579 And so I I'm using my meditation practice kind of 700 00:40:18.639 --> 00:40:21.719 like what we were talking about earlier about being okay 701 00:40:21.780 --> 00:40:28.679 with discomfort because being less available. So setting up maybe 702 00:40:28.940 --> 00:40:33.159 auto replies on my email saying that I'm checking only 703 00:40:33.280 --> 00:40:37.260 quote unquote between Monday and Friday, which is wild that 704 00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:42.219 that not being available all of the time is

inexcusable almost. 705 00:40:42.989 --> 00:40:47.280 And so setting up auto replies and Deleting all sorts 706 00:40:47.340 --> 00:40:50.659 of apps from my phone and things like that has 707 00:40:50.699 --> 00:40:56.000 been really helpful. So I just feel the unpleasantness of 708 00:40:56.059 --> 00:40:59.289 like I'm missing out on something or I'm going to 709 00:40:59.329 --> 00:41:02.710 get in trouble or someone is waiting for something on me. 710 00:41:03.349 --> 00:41:08.469 And that there's this perceived urgency that certainly got heightened 711 00:41:08.510 --> 00:41:12.269 during the pandemic for me. So that everything is urgent 712 00:41:12.309 --> 00:41:15.849 and needed replying in that moment when it's not necessarily true. 713 00:41:16.730 --> 00:41:19.090 So I got to reflect and say like, well, is 714 00:41:19.170 --> 00:41:22.809 this true? And a lot of it wasn't. And it 715 00:41:22.849 --> 00:41:25.739 was just this urgency I created for myself. And so 716 00:41:25.929 --> 00:41:30.280 creating these boundaries, but it wasn't so pleasant. So being 717 00:41:30.659 --> 00:41:33.980 with that discomfort, but then also using mindfulness to tune 718 00:41:34.079 --> 00:41:38.519 into the pleasantness when it did arise. So just Being 719 00:41:38.679 --> 00:41:41.840 able to have space from my device and just feeling 720 00:41:41.920 --> 00:41:45.809 that spaciousness in my body, the depth suddenly in my breath, 721 00:41:46.710 --> 00:41:49.650 or being able to just look out my window and 722 00:41:49.769 --> 00:41:53.460 not need to fidget for my device and fill that 723 00:41:53.579 --> 00:41:58.170 time with scrolling or something like that. And so when 724 00:41:58.230 --> 00:42:01.650 I was able to tune into those moments of peacefulness, 725 00:42:01.789 --> 00:42:04.530 even though they were very short to begin with, it 726 00:42:04.550 --> 00:42:08.530 was enough to reinforce this choice of having created the boundaries. 727 00:42:09.469 --> 00:42:12.519 And so I keep doing that. I keep trying to 728 00:42:12.539 --> 00:42:16.539 be mindful of those pleasant moments because I have noticed, 729 00:42:16.579 --> 00:42:19.099 and this has happened already a few times throughout the 730 00:42:19.139 --> 00:42:22.360 pandemic as I've tried to create these boundaries, is that 731 00:42:22.590 --> 00:42:24.730 I take it for granted. It's almost like I treat 732 00:42:24.789 --> 00:42:27.300 the boundaries differently. like a check mark, like, oh, I 733 00:42:27.340 --> 00:42:30.820 got it figured out, but it's a slippery slope. We 734 00:42:30.860 --> 00:42:34.570 answer one email on a Saturday afternoon, then we're suddenly 735 00:42:34.949 --> 00:42:37.769 looking for the reply a few hours later, and then 736 00:42:37.789 --> 00:42:41.670 we're back on. And so the mindfulness can really help 737 00:42:41.730 --> 00:42:43.909 kind of keep us on track in that sense. 738 00:42:45.030 --> 00:42:48.519 On the subject of boundaries, if you haven't, by you, 739 00:42:48.539 --> 00:42:50.639 I'm talking to the listener, not to Don, although I'll 740 00:42:50.659 --> 00:42:52.739 include Don here too, but if you haven't listened to 741 00:42:52.780 --> 00:42:56.019 the episode, We just posted with Dr. Laurie Santos, the 742 00:42:56.059 --> 00:43:00.139 Yale professor and host of the Happiness Lab podcast. On 743 00:43:00.179 --> 00:43:03.599 that episode, we talk about rituals you can put into 744 00:43:03.619 --> 00:43:07.460 your life, even like silly, simple little ones that can 745 00:43:07.570 --> 00:43:10.650 help you draw a boundary between work. 746 00:43:10.789 --> 00:43:11.590 And the rest of your life. 747 00:43:12.269 --> 00:43:14.309 But I want to go back, Don, with you to 748 00:43:14.510 --> 00:43:17.070 technology and mindfulness, because I know this is an area 749 00:43:17.090 --> 00:43:20.480 of special interest for you. Do you think it is 750 00:43:20.539 --> 00:43:25.829 possible for us to mindfully doom scroll, to mindfully interact 751 00:43:26.150 --> 00:43:29.650 with technology, be it Netflix or social media or email? 752 00:43:30.610 --> 00:43:31.769 And if so, how do we do that? 753 00:43:33.110 --> 00:43:36.239 Yeah, I might be one of the few people who 754 00:43:36.420 --> 00:43:39.059 does believe that or the few teachers who does really 755 00:43:39.099 --> 00:43:43.440 believe in that. And the way that we can is 756 00:43:43.539 --> 00:43:47.840 by tuning into the body, right? So just when we're 757 00:43:48.199 --> 00:43:50.699 doom scrolling, or let's say it starts off as scrolling, 758 00:43:50.849 --> 00:43:53.010 because often that's what it's like for me. It's like 759 00:43:53.389 --> 00:43:55.829 the first few headlines that I read on the news, 760 00:43:56.050 --> 00:43:59.150 I can take in. But at some point, especially if 761 00:43:59.210 --> 00:44:01.719 I get caught in clicking through all of the links 762 00:44:01.760 --> 00:44:04.139 that are offered in an article or something like that, 763 00:44:04.739 --> 00:44:08.760 then I get lost in it. Then if I can remember... 764 00:44:08.739 --> 00:44:11.340 to tune into just my body, to be like, am 765 00:44:11.400 --> 00:44:15.380 I breathing? What is my internal landscape like? Is it tense? 766 00:44:15.539 --> 00:44:19.170 Am I anxious? What feelings am I feeling? If I'm 767 00:44:19.289 --> 00:44:21.750 able to do that, then I'm able to kind of 768 00:44:21.829 --> 00:44:24.969 snap out of the spell of the doom scrolling. And 769 00:44:25.030 --> 00:44:27.360 then I get to choose in that moment, do I 770 00:44:27.420 --> 00:44:30.679 want more of this or do I want less of this? 771 00:44:31.420 --> 00:44:35.400 And ironically, you would think that a person who had 772 00:44:35.460 --> 00:44:38.719 the opportunity to ask themselves that question, do I want 773 00:44:38.780 --> 00:44:40.940 more or less of this, that they would choose less. 774 00:44:41.280 -->

00:44:44.760 But I don't always do that. I still sometimes get 775 00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:48.000 totally caught, but then maybe a few minutes later, I'll 776 00:44:48.039 --> 00:44:50.719 have that check-in again. And then it's like the tension 777 00:44:50.760 --> 00:44:53.880 in my body gets louder. And then it's telling me like, okay, 778 00:44:53.920 --> 00:44:57.199 you've really got to stop doing this. And then with 779 00:44:57.260 --> 00:45:00.550 things like say Netflix or YouTube, what I do is 780 00:45:00.769 --> 00:45:06.369 I remove all of the preset settings or the default 781 00:45:06.429 --> 00:45:10.050 settings that play a next episode right away or that 782 00:45:10.150 --> 00:45:13.340 offer all of these suggestions for new videos, like basically 783 00:45:13.380 --> 00:45:18.179 the algorithm on YouTube so that everything is more of 784 00:45:18.239 --> 00:45:21.820 a choice for me. When sometimes if I'm feeling just 785 00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:26.039 really down and I wanna self-soothe myself, I'll put on 786 00:45:26.079 --> 00:45:29.570 an episode of something on Netflix and then without that 787 00:45:29.710 --> 00:45:33.539 next episode autoplay, after the episode is done, like say 788 00:45:33.579 --> 00:45:36.400 after 20 minutes or so, I'll check in. It's like, 789 00:45:36.699 --> 00:45:39.699 do I want more of this? No, I think I'm okay. 790 00:45:39.929 --> 00:45:42.389 Like I think I could go and continue my day. 791 00:45:42.969 --> 00:45:46.610 But sometimes it's like, yeah, maybe just one more 20 792 00:45:46.610 --> 00:45:49.570 minute of self-soothing will actually help me focus for the 793 00:45:49.610 --> 00:45:51.489 rest of the day or help me be more present 794 00:45:51.530 --> 00:45:54.550 for my family for the rest of the day. And 795 00:45:54.590 --> 00:45:57.150 then what I love is just as much as there's 796 00:45:57.329 --> 00:46:02.719 tech that traps us into staying on sites and apps, 797 00:46:02.920 --> 00:46:06.679 there's tech that helps us get off of them or 798 00:46:06.719 --> 00:46:10.889 at least have a more helpful or wholesome relationship with them. 799 00:46:11.030 --> 00:46:14.550 So I think it's called distract free YouTube or something 800 00:46:14.590 --> 00:46:19.130 that removes all of the extra video suggestions so that 801 00:46:19.349 --> 00:46:22.510 anything I watch on YouTube, it's a choice. It's not 802 00:46:22.550 --> 00:46:25.039 something that was fed to me. So I think it's 803 00:46:25.079 --> 00:46:28.340 this combination of finding these apps that are out there. 804 00:46:28.400 --> 00:46:31.320 And I think the website that I have used as 805 00:46:31.380 --> 00:46:36.340 a resources center for humane technology, that has been really 806 00:46:36.380 --> 00:46:40.019 helpful in addition to using my mindfulness of the body 807 00:46:40.719 --> 00:46:43.880 practices to tune in and to tell me like, is 808 00:46:43.900 --> 00:46:47.320 this wise to continue? Is it wise to stop? 809 00:46:48.380 --> 00:46:49.539 I like all of that a lot. 810 00:46:50.900 --> 00:46:53.579 I want to turn to a subject that actually it's 811 00:46:53.619 --> 00:46:56.800 not quite as juicy as jerks at work, but it's 812 00:46:56.820 --> 00:47:00.860 a it's in the same zone. It's about competing with 813 00:47:00.920 --> 00:47:05.550 our colleagues and how can we be okay when maybe 814 00:47:05.590 --> 00:47:08.329 our colleague has a win. And this is something we 815 00:47:08.369 --> 00:47:11.190 talked about while filming the meditation challenge. So let's play 816 00:47:11.210 --> 00:47:13.150 this clip from the work-life challenge and then we'll unpack 817 00:47:13.190 --> 00:47:17.110 it on the other side. I remember this t-shirt that 818 00:47:17.150 --> 00:47:20.250 I saw once that said, every time a friend of 819 00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:22.199 mine succeeds, I die a little bit. 820 00:47:23.179 --> 00:47:26.099 So how do we. 821 00:47:25.840 --> 00:47:28.800 Take joy in the joy of others, especially if we're. 822 00:47:28.719 --> 00:47:29.300 Competing with them? 823 00:47:29.550 --> 00:47:34.309 Yeah. The idea around it is that when we are 824 00:47:34.429 --> 00:47:39.170 joyful for someone else's good fortune, then the happiness can 825 00:47:39.650 --> 00:47:44.289 compound from there exponentially, as opposed to if we were 826 00:47:44.449 --> 00:47:47.449 jealous or envious of somebody else, then we're kind of 827 00:47:47.530 --> 00:47:51.289 somehow limiting the amount of joy that is out in 828 00:47:51.329 --> 00:47:55.260 the world that we can also experience. But as you mentioned, 829 00:47:55.300 --> 00:47:58.610 it can be hard because when we're toe-to-toe with a 830 00:47:58.670 --> 00:48:02.110 coworker for a specific task or role or something like that, 831 00:48:02.489 --> 00:48:05.510 it's normal that we'll feel upset or angry, but also 832 00:48:05.809 --> 00:48:07.639 that doesn't need to take away from any of the 833 00:48:07.719 --> 00:48:09.139 joy that someone might be feeling. 834 00:48:09.400 --> 00:48:11.940 So you're not asking us to celebrate every time we're 835 00:48:11.960 --> 00:48:15.639 in a zero-sum competition with somebody and the other person wins, 836 00:48:16.019 --> 00:48:18.909 but there is a way to actually expand our emotional 837 00:48:19.010 --> 00:48:20.190 repertoire in those moments. 838 00:48:20.590 --> 00:48:24.630 Exactly. And we start embracing the complexity or the nuance 839 00:48:25.289 --> 00:48:28.619 in this emotional field because, yeah, we don't want to 840 00:48:29.019 --> 00:48:32.619 deny the human experience of sadness or the grief of 841 00:48:32.679 --> 00:48:36.440 not getting a promotion because that's there. And if we do, well, 842 00:48:36.539 --> 00:48:39.429 actually what we're doing is we're suppressing. We're not really 843 00:48:39.510 --> 00:48:43.369 honoring our emotions and then they'll come out in passive 844 00:48:43.389 --> 00:48:44.710

aggressive or aggressive ways. 845 00:48:46.239 --> 00:48:49.860 On the episode with the aforementioned Dr. Laurie Santos, I 846 00:48:49.880 --> 00:48:54.420 sort of maladroitly taught mudita meditation, where you learn how 847 00:48:54.440 --> 00:48:58.000 to take delight in the good fortune of others. So 848 00:48:58.039 --> 00:49:00.320 maybe you can repair any damage I did there by 849 00:49:00.659 --> 00:49:03.420 poorly teaching it and talk a little bit about how 850 00:49:03.460 --> 00:49:09.030 this ancient Buddhist practice designed to help us with being 851 00:49:09.050 --> 00:49:12.110 happy for other people when we feel competitive. 852 00:49:14.070 --> 00:49:14.250 So. 853 00:49:15.400 --> 00:49:18.230 Mudita is the word that we used in that clip 854 00:49:18.289 --> 00:49:23.659 and that is often translated. as sympathetic joy, altruistic joy, 855 00:49:23.840 --> 00:49:27.260 or I sometimes simplify it as joy for others. And 856 00:49:27.300 --> 00:49:29.280 it's one of the heart qualities. It's like part of 857 00:49:29.340 --> 00:49:32.940 the same list of teachings as friendliness or loving kindness 858 00:49:32.960 --> 00:49:36.739 that we talked about. And so much in the same way, 859 00:49:36.820 --> 00:49:40.489 we could recite phrases like bringing someone's good fortune to 860 00:49:40.570 --> 00:49:43.400 mind and then wishing them more good fortune or may 861 00:49:43.460 --> 00:49:46.760 their happiness or good fortune continue. And so we can 862 00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:50.039 bring to mind somebody for whom it's easy to rejoice for, 863 00:49:50.199 --> 00:49:53.110 a loved one, for example. And then from there, we 864 00:49:53.179 --> 00:49:56.510 can spread it to others. We could maybe even bring 865 00:49:56.570 --> 00:49:59.550 to mind some of our own joys and celebrate that 866 00:49:59.769 --> 00:50:03.570 or to a neutral person, a challenging person eventually as well. 867 00:50:05.070 --> 00:50:07.860 And sometimes the way that I also like to practice 868 00:50:07.949 --> 00:50:11.440 it is because if I'm trying to share mudita or 869 00:50:11.579 --> 00:50:14.880 this joy for someone that I don't really like, it's 870 00:50:14.940 --> 00:50:19.179 not so easy. So I love to drop into the body. 871 00:50:19.280 --> 00:50:21.119 So I bring to mind like a time when I 872 00:50:21.199 --> 00:50:26.230 felt joyful. And can I maybe imagine that person feeling 873 00:50:26.289 --> 00:50:29.489 that in that moment, given their good fortune? And then 874 00:50:29.570 --> 00:50:32.050 from there, can I maybe just say like, yeah, may 875 00:50:32.070 --> 00:50:35.030 you continue feeling that? Or something along those lines to 876 00:50:35.090 --> 00:50:39.030 simplify it a little bit more. Because mudita or sympathetic 877 00:50:39.110 --> 00:50:43.619 joy is considered to be the hardest of the heart qualities. 878 00:50:43.639 --> 00:50:48.000 So the other heart qualities include equanimity and compassion with friendliness. 879 00:50:48.679 --> 00:50:50.940 And so sympathetic joy is considered to be one of 880 00:50:51.000 --> 00:50:52.579 the hardest ones of the four. So. 881 00:50:54.110 --> 00:50:57.480 Yeah, set the bar low, wish them well from afar 882 00:50:57.619 --> 00:51:01.719 as best you can, while also recognizing that you might 883 00:51:01.760 --> 00:51:05.880 be feeling, say, envy or sadness or grief because you 884 00:51:06.219 --> 00:51:08.409 aren't experiencing some good fortune. 885 00:51:08.429 --> 00:51:10.530 Right, I think that's a key thing. You don't want 886 00:51:10.550 --> 00:51:14.769 to paper over what's there, some anger or sadness or envy. 887 00:51:15.469 --> 00:51:19.130 You want to be mindful of that while also developing 888 00:51:19.190 --> 00:51:21.469 the quality of sympathetic joy. 889 00:51:22.610 --> 00:51:26.360 Exactly. I think Joanna Macy has said in terms of 890 00:51:26.500 --> 00:51:30.300 the fourth heart quality, equanimity, that she calls it sometimes 891 00:51:30.420 --> 00:51:33.940 premature equanimity when we're papering over. When we learn this 892 00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:36.480 quality and we think, oh, this is how I should be. 893 00:51:36.960 --> 00:51:40.449 And then we deny the complex feelings that we are feeling. 894 00:51:40.989 --> 00:51:43.969 And so I would say the same thing for sympathetic joy. 895 00:51:44.010 --> 00:51:47.610 We don't want a premature sympathetic joy. And how do 896 00:51:47.630 --> 00:51:51.679 we avoid that prematurity? It's just by honoring the whole 897 00:51:51.699 --> 00:51:55.559 spectrum of of complicated feelings we're feeling in a given moment. 898 00:51:56.739 --> 00:51:58.420 Before we go, I want to talk about a subject 899 00:51:58.500 --> 00:52:00.599 I know is of interest to you, which is kind 900 00:52:01.559 --> 00:52:04.019 of related to what we're seeing right now in the workplace, 901 00:52:04.260 --> 00:52:09.530 the great resignation everybody's hashtag follow your bliss and, you know, 902 00:52:09.570 --> 00:52:13.489 quitting their jobs. And, you know, generally speaking, I'm positive 903 00:52:13.530 --> 00:52:16.090 about that. But I know you and I share a 904 00:52:16.110 --> 00:52:18.929 view that bringing meditation in the workplace doesn't mean you 905 00:52:18.969 --> 00:52:19.730 have to quit. 906 00:52:21.469 --> 00:52:25.079 Exactly. Although we may not be great examples of that. 907 00:52:25.880 --> 00:52:28.539 I used to be in marketing and you just left. 908 00:52:28.579 --> 00:52:34.039 And so basically, I just think that a lot of 909 00:52:34.119 --> 00:52:38.860 the power of this practice comes from bringing whatever we're 910 00:52:38.940 --> 00:52:42.920 learning to wherever we are. It doesn't mean that we 911 00:52:42.960 --> 00:52:46.119 need to uproot our life or change it drastically in 912 00:52:46.260 --> 00:52:50.030 order to keep deepening. That can help or be supportive, 913 00:52:50.070 --> 00:52:53.980 but I think

there's just so much more promise given 914 00:52:54.039 --> 00:52:56.280 the world or what the world really needs is us 915 00:52:56.420 --> 00:53:00.829 bringing these things we're learning out to our families or 916 00:53:00.889 --> 00:53:04.269 to our workplace, or even if we decide to change jobs, well, 917 00:53:04.389 --> 00:53:07.590 the new job, for example, but I don't think we 918 00:53:07.650 --> 00:53:12.119 necessarily need to quit everything and find a cave for 919 00:53:12.179 --> 00:53:16.360 a few years to really get the richness of this practice. 920 00:53:17.260 --> 00:53:21.590 I actually feel, from my experience, when I first started meditating, 921 00:53:21.650 --> 00:53:23.809 I kept going on retreats, and this is when I 922 00:53:23.869 --> 00:53:27.309 was working in marketing. What I didn't realize, though, was 923 00:53:27.349 --> 00:53:30.000 that I was treating my practice as a way or 924 00:53:30.039 --> 00:53:33.619 a place to escape to. I wasn't actually applying any 925 00:53:33.659 --> 00:53:35.880 of the things that I was learning in my day-to-day life. 926 00:53:36.500 --> 00:53:39.420 And my partner at that time I remember if we'd 927 00:53:39.440 --> 00:53:42.179 get into a fight, I'd say, hold on. And then 928 00:53:42.219 --> 00:53:46.000 I'd go off on a 10 or 20-day retreat and 929 00:53:46.059 --> 00:53:48.420 come back. And we would never pick up that conversation 930 00:53:48.440 --> 00:53:52.260 because I was suddenly feeling way more peaceful. And so 931 00:53:52.300 --> 00:53:56.639 that wasn't actually addressing anything in my life either. And 932 00:53:56.699 --> 00:53:59.099 so when I realized that, I told myself I wouldn't 933 00:53:59.139 --> 00:54:02.420 go on a retreat until it felt like I wanted 934 00:54:02.480 --> 00:54:07.210 to connect as opposed to wanting to escape. And that took, 935 00:54:07.250 --> 00:54:10.090 I think, about two years. I would constantly tune in 936 00:54:10.170 --> 00:54:11.880 and I would be in touch with my mentor, my 937 00:54:11.909 --> 00:54:15.480 meditation teacher, to also help keep me straight and whatnot. 938 00:54:15.559 --> 00:54:19.219 But I remember those two years were the hardest because 939 00:54:19.300 --> 00:54:22.039 I couldn't just run away from all of the uncomfortable 940 00:54:22.099 --> 00:54:25.730 situations and conversations that I really just wanted to avoid. 941 00:54:26.809 --> 00:54:29.570 And so I think that is what has made me 942 00:54:29.630 --> 00:54:33.170 so passionate about meditation. being mindful in our day-to-day life 943 00:54:33.489 --> 00:54:37.190 with the things that are in our lives, like technology 944 00:54:37.210 --> 00:54:40.260 or these jerky people at work or whatnot. 945 00:54:41.300 --> 00:54:43.480 And listening to you talk, I realized that next time 946 00:54:43.539 --> 00:54:47.579 I do Metta or Mudita for a difficult person, I'm 947 00:54:47.599 --> 00:54:50.150 going to wish that they find their bliss

and go 948 00:54:50.170 --> 00:54:50.650 to a cave. 949 00:54:52.889 --> 00:54:56.250 They no longer work with me. That's not exactly what 950 00:54:56.289 --> 00:54:58.670 I wanted you to take from that, but you know, 951 00:55:00.369 --> 00:55:01.090 baby steps. 952 00:55:01.610 --> 00:55:04.639 I'm not the best student. Dawn, you've done a great 953 00:55:04.659 --> 00:55:07.300 job with this. For people who are going to, I suspect, 954 00:55:07.380 --> 00:55:10.039 want to learn more about you, do you have a website, 955 00:55:10.079 --> 00:55:10.699 social media? 956 00:55:10.780 --> 00:55:12.130 Where can people dig in? 957 00:55:13.550 --> 00:55:16.590 Yeah, my website is the best place, basically. So it's 958 00:55:16.630 --> 00:55:21.010 just donmaricio.com. And then I try to just be in 959 00:55:21.050 --> 00:55:25.590 touch with people in deeper ways that are not algorithm based. 960 00:55:25.750 --> 00:55:28.880 So I have a Patreon community as well as my 961 00:55:28.909 --> 00:55:33.000 monthly newsletter. And I'm actually on a social media sabbatical 962 00:55:33.059 --> 00:55:36.650 right now just because I didn't like how it made 963 00:55:36.690 --> 00:55:38.889 me feel when I would engage with it. It just 964 00:55:38.949 --> 00:55:41.630 felt like when a world event would happen, I would 965 00:55:41.690 --> 00:55:44.880 jump into social media as if I needed others to 966 00:55:44.929 --> 00:55:48.099 validate my feelings or opinions. And so I just want 967 00:55:48.139 --> 00:55:51.260 to kind of get to know myself more. And so 968 00:55:51.300 --> 00:55:55.820 I've been on this social media sabbatical for seven months now, 969 00:55:55.880 --> 00:55:57.440 and I don't know if I'll come back. 970 00:55:58.440 --> 00:55:58.860 Good for you. 971 00:55:59.400 --> 00:55:59.780 Thanks. 972 00:56:00.619 --> 00:56:02.300 I'm glad you're gone because you were trolling me all 973 00:56:02.340 --> 00:56:07.760 the time on Twitter. It was so uncomfortable. Dawn, great 974 00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:09.340 to see you. Thank you so much for doing this. 975 00:56:09.780 --> 00:56:10.679 Thanks for having me. 976 00:56:12.280 --> 00:56:14.199 Thanks again to Dawn. It was great to chat with her. 977 00:56:14.260 --> 00:56:16.780 Before we head out, let me mention again the free 978 00:56:16.960 --> 00:56:20.280 Work Life Challenge, which will teach you how to navigate 979 00:56:20.300 --> 00:56:23.260 your life at work without losing your mind. Dawn, of course, 980 00:56:23.460 --> 00:56:25.619 is one of the main teachers in that challenge. It 981 00:56:25.679 --> 00:56:29.360 starts today, November 8th, over on the 10% Happier app. 982 00:56:29.519 --> 00:56:32.840 Download the 10% Happier app wherever you get your apps 983 00:56:32.940 --> 00:56:36.690 to join right now. This show is made by Samuel Johns, 984 00:56:36.789 --> 00:56:41.570 Gabrielle Zuckerman, DJ Kashmir, Justine Davey, Kim Baikama, Maria Wartell, 985 00:56:42.010 --> 00:56:44.860 and Jen Poyant with audio engineering from our good friends 986 00:56:44.900 --> 00:56:48.260 over at Ultraviolet Audio. We'll see you all on Wednesday 987 00:56:48.300 --> 00:56:51.280 for a fresh episode with Matthew Hepburn, who, as mentioned, 988 00:56:51.940 --> 00:56:54.139 is the co-teacher in the Work Life Challenge.