Dr. Andy Norman Interview Notes
Author, Researcher, Public Philosopher
Book: “Mental immunity: Infectious Ideas, Mind Parasites, and the Search for a Better Way to Think”
YouTube: “Arash’s World Interview with Dr. Andy Norman on Mental Immunity and Guarding Against Mind Parasites”
Podcast: “Mental Immunity with Dr. Andy Norman: Keeping it Real, the Information Environment Healthy and Our Critical and Rational Thinking Intact”
In this episode, I have the great pleasure of speaking with Dr. Andy Norman, researcher, public philosopher, and author of “Mental Immunity: Infectious Ideas, Mind Parasites, and the Search for a Better Way to Think” on how to boost your mental immunity by protecting yourself and guarding against infectious ideas and mind parasites.
Dr. Norman explains how the mind like the body has an immune system and how we can immunize ourselves against flawed thinking, biases, and conspiracy theories. Through mind inoculation, we can also prepare for upcoming or anticipated false narratives and prebunk them (i.e. debunk them in advance) so we have better protection and guardrails against disinformation and misinformation as demonstrated in the case of the Biden administration and the invasion of Ukraine.
Since the advent of the European enlightenment, we have become somewhat more rational in our outlook and have been less prone to fall for dangerous superstitions like witchcraft, while also being a bit more able to modify and regulate emotions via our reflective and thoughtful selves. In addition, we need to have intellectual humility, open-mindedness, and curiosity and not be overconfident as this could comprise our ability to separate fact from fiction. In such cases, doubts are our mind’s antibodies but if they are prevalent, they can derail us by making us too rigid and biased in our thinking.
Finally, we also discuss the inherent dangers of generative AI with deep fakes that could mislead many users and viewers and also how technology with its algorithm of increased engagement and profiteering may contribute to more extreme and radical thinking. Yet, if we immerse ourselves in healthy practices, infuse our thinking with reasonable doubt, and take advantage of projects like mental immunity, we can come out stronger and more resilient.
00:27: Personal Intro:
A cognitive immunologist. Studies the mind through the lens of immunology. Cognitive scientist.
01:15:
Talking about book “Mental Immunity”. People vary in how susceptible they are to conspiracy theories or propaganda, and myths and legends. For the longest time, critical thinking was seen as important, but it does not add up to robust immunity to some of the dangerous memes and ideas out there. How mind evolved to spot and ignore that information. Figure out how to make mental defenses work better and taking critical thinking to the next level.
03:03:
Something you can actually train for. Vaccine shots are training the body’s immune system to recognize and fight off something it did not know how to handle before. The same could be extended to the mind and ideas. About six decades of research on mind inoculation. People can become immune to different versions of false narratives. Example of Biden administration and Putin’s plan and proposed narrative to invade Ukraine with disinformation campaign. Got the word out and warned everybody about it in advance, “prebunking” as opposed to debunking the false narrative. And it worked.
06:17:
The role and influence of emotion. We are semi-rational beings at best and are on a continuum. We are quite capable of being rational, but emotions can interfere. Small changes can dramatically improve the human condition. The enlightenment of European history when reason and inquiry became very fashionable that effectively inoculated millions of minds against dangerous superstitions like witchcraft that had spread easily prior to that. We become more rational, and it transformed the world. Become wiser being by modulating our emotions and enhancing our reflective and thoughtful selves.
08:38:
The element and importance of doubt and intellectual humility in the rationality and the reasoning process. Accept “true facts” but never get your certainty go up to 100 percent. Treat everything as provisional and possibly in need of rethinking down the road. The attitude of humility is absolutely critical to healthy thinking. Becoming overconfident compromises your ability to separate fact from fiction but being humbled, openminded, and curious can counteract that.
10:06:
The role and influence of rigidity and rigid thinking. Ideologies and being stuck in certain views and interpretations. The example of stereotype threat that affects all parties involved and causes immediate tensions. Encounters between a white person and a person of colour. The more suspicious and uneasy, and on edge one becomes, the more likely it is to not think straight. Feeling trust and safety the antidote when good thinking occurs.
11:44:
Trust and collaborative mindset. Conspiracy theorists and distrust of “mainstream media” or Big Pharma that they can’t think straight any longer. You can be too suspicious for your own good, but you can also be too trusting. Key to this is being able to live with a. certain amount of uncertainty. Thinking in gray scales rather than black and white. Adjusting your confidence levels as new information comes in. a Goldilocks zone of not believing every conspiracy theory or as my friend David Stephenson says not believing any at all. Sometimes people do conspire, and one has to look into that. The problem occurs when your whole thinking becomes conspiratorially-minded. Doubts are important (they are our mind’s antibodies) but they can also spiral out of control. There are auto-immune disorders as well as immune deficiencies of the mind.
14:42:
The problem of generalization and jumping to conclusions. Being careful with stereotypes and extreme expressions and statements of “always” and “never”. Conversation is the crucible within which good thinking is formed. Friends who question your beliefs in a gentle friendly way. Testing ideas with questions and double-check them before you spread those ideas to others. Formed in social conversations and then internalized in your own mind. The issue with cancel culture eliminating dissenting opinions and voices. Open dialogue involves everyone. Seeing one’s own blind spots when somebody disagrees with us. Learning how not to be defensive. Otherwise, you can’t learn from other people and you are not really or fully listening to them.
18:33:
What about intuition? Many cognitive scientists suspicious of it. Difference between knee-jerk and educated intuition. It can be connected and related with experience and one’s areas of expertise. There are different kinds of intuition. Malcolm Gladwell’s view on how intuition can be better.
22:08:
Philosophy and thinking about real freedom. Some people have a superficial concept of freedom of doing whatever they want. If you indulge your every want and you become a slave to your wants and desires. You need to learn to restrain your own feelings in order to become truly free.
24:27:
What about empathy? Experiments where Republican and Democrat voters collaborate on different projects and find common ground. Realizing they could work together. Knowing how to listen to each and learn from one another. Is compassion better than empathy? Adding reason to one’s empathy to achieve compassion that could do more good than empathy all by itself. You can take empathy too far. Buddhist focus on compassion with meditation practice. Nietzsche’s perception of favoring empathy (feeling for) versus compassion (suffering with).
28:51:
The influence of AI. People are right to be concerned as it’s a very powerful technology. Generative AI a real game-changer with a lot of disruption. Disinformation and propaganda through AI and deep fake videos. Used to bad political ends in the coming years. Potential 2024 election disinformation.
32:25:
Use and abuse of technology. Also, algorithms driving a process to maximize your engagement. It is a form of manipulation that is insidious. Not just cute cat videos but it can take you down a conspiracy rabbit hole and may lead towards more extreme and radical thinking, such as QAnon being gradually radicalized, step by step. Techniques to brainwash people. A potential threat to our freedom. Not all speech should be permitted. With rights come responsibilities. Radicalized content keeps people glued to their screens. You don’t need evil intent to do evil. Keeping an information environment that’s healthy and doesn’t radicalize people. Then, they don’t think straight and lose ability to be good citizens.
39:48:
What is the mental immunity project? Created guide to mental immune system care. A way to boost your own resistance to nonsense of all kinds. Tips and tricks with ten simple evidence-based principles that anyone can use to improve their thinking. Going viral and fighting bad memes with good memes. Go to mentalimmunityproject.org to learn about this new science and to level up your thinking.
Author, Researcher, Public Philosopher
Book: “Mental immunity: Infectious Ideas, Mind Parasites, and the Search for a Better Way to Think”
YouTube: “Arash’s World Interview with Dr. Andy Norman on Mental Immunity and Guarding Against Mind Parasites”
Podcast: “Mental Immunity with Dr. Andy Norman: Keeping it Real, the Information Environment Healthy and Our Critical and Rational Thinking Intact”
In this episode, I have the great pleasure of speaking with Dr. Andy Norman, researcher, public philosopher, and author of “Mental Immunity: Infectious Ideas, Mind Parasites, and the Search for a Better Way to Think” on how to boost your mental immunity by protecting yourself and guarding against infectious ideas and mind parasites.
Dr. Norman explains how the mind like the body has an immune system and how we can immunize ourselves against flawed thinking, biases, and conspiracy theories. Through mind inoculation, we can also prepare for upcoming or anticipated false narratives and prebunk them (i.e. debunk them in advance) so we have better protection and guardrails against disinformation and misinformation as demonstrated in the case of the Biden administration and the invasion of Ukraine.
Since the advent of the European enlightenment, we have become somewhat more rational in our outlook and have been less prone to fall for dangerous superstitions like witchcraft, while also being a bit more able to modify and regulate emotions via our reflective and thoughtful selves. In addition, we need to have intellectual humility, open-mindedness, and curiosity and not be overconfident as this could comprise our ability to separate fact from fiction. In such cases, doubts are our mind’s antibodies but if they are prevalent, they can derail us by making us too rigid and biased in our thinking.
Finally, we also discuss the inherent dangers of generative AI with deep fakes that could mislead many users and viewers and also how technology with its algorithm of increased engagement and profiteering may contribute to more extreme and radical thinking. Yet, if we immerse ourselves in healthy practices, infuse our thinking with reasonable doubt, and take advantage of projects like mental immunity, we can come out stronger and more resilient.
00:27: Personal Intro:
A cognitive immunologist. Studies the mind through the lens of immunology. Cognitive scientist.
01:15:
Talking about book “Mental Immunity”. People vary in how susceptible they are to conspiracy theories or propaganda, and myths and legends. For the longest time, critical thinking was seen as important, but it does not add up to robust immunity to some of the dangerous memes and ideas out there. How mind evolved to spot and ignore that information. Figure out how to make mental defenses work better and taking critical thinking to the next level.
03:03:
Something you can actually train for. Vaccine shots are training the body’s immune system to recognize and fight off something it did not know how to handle before. The same could be extended to the mind and ideas. About six decades of research on mind inoculation. People can become immune to different versions of false narratives. Example of Biden administration and Putin’s plan and proposed narrative to invade Ukraine with disinformation campaign. Got the word out and warned everybody about it in advance, “prebunking” as opposed to debunking the false narrative. And it worked.
06:17:
The role and influence of emotion. We are semi-rational beings at best and are on a continuum. We are quite capable of being rational, but emotions can interfere. Small changes can dramatically improve the human condition. The enlightenment of European history when reason and inquiry became very fashionable that effectively inoculated millions of minds against dangerous superstitions like witchcraft that had spread easily prior to that. We become more rational, and it transformed the world. Become wiser being by modulating our emotions and enhancing our reflective and thoughtful selves.
08:38:
The element and importance of doubt and intellectual humility in the rationality and the reasoning process. Accept “true facts” but never get your certainty go up to 100 percent. Treat everything as provisional and possibly in need of rethinking down the road. The attitude of humility is absolutely critical to healthy thinking. Becoming overconfident compromises your ability to separate fact from fiction but being humbled, openminded, and curious can counteract that.
10:06:
The role and influence of rigidity and rigid thinking. Ideologies and being stuck in certain views and interpretations. The example of stereotype threat that affects all parties involved and causes immediate tensions. Encounters between a white person and a person of colour. The more suspicious and uneasy, and on edge one becomes, the more likely it is to not think straight. Feeling trust and safety the antidote when good thinking occurs.
11:44:
Trust and collaborative mindset. Conspiracy theorists and distrust of “mainstream media” or Big Pharma that they can’t think straight any longer. You can be too suspicious for your own good, but you can also be too trusting. Key to this is being able to live with a. certain amount of uncertainty. Thinking in gray scales rather than black and white. Adjusting your confidence levels as new information comes in. a Goldilocks zone of not believing every conspiracy theory or as my friend David Stephenson says not believing any at all. Sometimes people do conspire, and one has to look into that. The problem occurs when your whole thinking becomes conspiratorially-minded. Doubts are important (they are our mind’s antibodies) but they can also spiral out of control. There are auto-immune disorders as well as immune deficiencies of the mind.
14:42:
The problem of generalization and jumping to conclusions. Being careful with stereotypes and extreme expressions and statements of “always” and “never”. Conversation is the crucible within which good thinking is formed. Friends who question your beliefs in a gentle friendly way. Testing ideas with questions and double-check them before you spread those ideas to others. Formed in social conversations and then internalized in your own mind. The issue with cancel culture eliminating dissenting opinions and voices. Open dialogue involves everyone. Seeing one’s own blind spots when somebody disagrees with us. Learning how not to be defensive. Otherwise, you can’t learn from other people and you are not really or fully listening to them.
18:33:
What about intuition? Many cognitive scientists suspicious of it. Difference between knee-jerk and educated intuition. It can be connected and related with experience and one’s areas of expertise. There are different kinds of intuition. Malcolm Gladwell’s view on how intuition can be better.
22:08:
Philosophy and thinking about real freedom. Some people have a superficial concept of freedom of doing whatever they want. If you indulge your every want and you become a slave to your wants and desires. You need to learn to restrain your own feelings in order to become truly free.
24:27:
What about empathy? Experiments where Republican and Democrat voters collaborate on different projects and find common ground. Realizing they could work together. Knowing how to listen to each and learn from one another. Is compassion better than empathy? Adding reason to one’s empathy to achieve compassion that could do more good than empathy all by itself. You can take empathy too far. Buddhist focus on compassion with meditation practice. Nietzsche’s perception of favoring empathy (feeling for) versus compassion (suffering with).
28:51:
The influence of AI. People are right to be concerned as it’s a very powerful technology. Generative AI a real game-changer with a lot of disruption. Disinformation and propaganda through AI and deep fake videos. Used to bad political ends in the coming years. Potential 2024 election disinformation.
32:25:
Use and abuse of technology. Also, algorithms driving a process to maximize your engagement. It is a form of manipulation that is insidious. Not just cute cat videos but it can take you down a conspiracy rabbit hole and may lead towards more extreme and radical thinking, such as QAnon being gradually radicalized, step by step. Techniques to brainwash people. A potential threat to our freedom. Not all speech should be permitted. With rights come responsibilities. Radicalized content keeps people glued to their screens. You don’t need evil intent to do evil. Keeping an information environment that’s healthy and doesn’t radicalize people. Then, they don’t think straight and lose ability to be good citizens.
39:48:
What is the mental immunity project? Created guide to mental immune system care. A way to boost your own resistance to nonsense of all kinds. Tips and tricks with ten simple evidence-based principles that anyone can use to improve their thinking. Going viral and fighting bad memes with good memes. Go to mentalimmunityproject.org to learn about this new science and to level up your thinking.
