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Speaker 3: Despite knowing that this person continues to hurt you , you feel a sense of hope. That's a key characteristic that we need to unpack, that things are going to be different, that things are going to change.
Speaker: Welcome to Heartbreak to Wholeness, the podcast helping you heal from the mindfuck of narcissistic relationships and move towards the secure, peaceful woman you want to become. We will explore all of the tools that you need to get through your grief, to move past those I'll be alone forever fears, and rebuild your confidence so you can move forward in healthy relationships as your full self.
Never to get sucked into the narcissistic spell again. I am your host, Bre Wolta, Relationship Clarity Coach and EFT Certified Practitioner. Let's dive in.
Welcome to this episode.
I am talking this week with Dr. Anthony Missoula. He is a highly experienced psychoanalyst and [00:01:00] psychotherapist. And we are going to be talking about trauma bonding. We're adding onto an episode that I did. Number 31 called trauma bonding, what it is and how to avoid it.
And your next relationship. That episode was so highly sought after that I wanted to continue the conversation. And Dr. Anthony offers some really unique perspectives around trauma bonding. So he works with personality disorder, individuals and couples, and brings a different lens, a different perspective to what trauma bonding is. Where it originates and how it perpetuates. So this episode was really fun for me because Anthony and I at times share very different perspectives.
And our goal with this episode was to really wrap the concept of trauma bonding in a couple of different viewpoints
so we get to talk about the deeper interpersonal dynamics that play into trauma, bonded relationships. [00:02:00] Really answering the question of why we stay and why, what makes it so goddamn hard to leave? We cover things like. How codependency and love bombing are related. How trauma bonded relationships helps us to avoid actually deeper grief and mourning that we are on some level consciously or not avoiding from childhood. And why this rollercoaster feels safe.
Despite the abuse that we are experiencing.
Following this episode, you will find part two where Anthony and I really go into some treatment modalities and what this can look like if you're in these situations to heal from this trauma bond. You can find part two on his podcasts. It's called the narcissism decoder. And I'm going to link to that in the show notes below. And remember to stick around to the end of the episode or where I will pull an Oracle card that will offer you a specific message that you can take [00:03:00] forward this week in your healing. And if you missed the announcement last week, we have moved to publishing episodes on Wednesdays instead of Fridays, which is why you're getting this on a Wednesday from now and here forward. Enjoy this episode.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the podcast, Anthony. I am so happy to have you here.
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you so much. I, it's my pleasure. I'm happy to be here and I'm excited to, to talk about trauma bonding.
So. I want to just say, I want to give a disclaimer alert to your listeners.
Okay. We want to surround the concept, right. Yeah. Of trauma bonding. So we're looking at it maybe from different perspectives and we could say it's deeper, but the disclaimer alert is since we're surrounding the concept is, I want to look at how it gets more complicated than it's just somebody's in a relationship with a narcissistically disturbed abusive person.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: That it's more complicated that there's an [00:04:00] interpersonal dynamic that gets played out
Speaker 4: that
Speaker 3: we really want to unpack and understand. And the disclaimer alert is if any of your listeners are in this kind of relationship, I am, and I have to say this, I'm not suggesting that anyone should stay with that kind of person, but I just want to, you know, sort of help people understand the reasons why they may stay with this person and find it so difficult to, you know, to exit the relationship, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. That's the number one thing that I hear from women and that I experienced myself was just this total confusion around why we stay or go back to people who have treated us really poorly. And we have the rational understanding that something is not right, but there's a deeper part of us that's pulling us So I think giving listeners the information to help them find clarity on all about clarity is going to be incredible.
Speaker 3: Okay, great.
Speaker 2: So let's talk about what the [00:05:00] heck trauma bonding even is. If nobody has listened to anything around trauma bonding before, uh, how would you describe trauma bonding?
Speaker 3: Okay, so from my perspective, it's a pattern, and that's an important word that I want to emphasize, that it's a pattern where a person is bonded in a relationship that's characterized by manipulation, invalidation, emotional, or other forms of abusive behavior, right?
Yeah. Despite knowing that this person continues to hurt you in similar ways, you feel a sense of hope. You see, so even though you know this happens, you are still hopeful. That's a key characteristic that we need to unpack, that things are going to be different, that things are going to change. So you feel stuck in this negative loop and you have no control, which is what you just alluded to, Bre, right?
Yeah. And when you try to detach, [00:06:00] you're unsuccessful. That's part of the pattern.
Speaker 4: Because
Speaker 3: when you detach, you don't feel whole anymore. Like it feels like something's missing when this person is not in your life. And there's this concept that they can hoover you back in. But in part, the hoovering, you know, it's looked at again and usually in a particular way in the social media content where the narcissistic individual.
Is like putting their claws in you and getting you to come back with these manipulative techniques, which could be partly true, but we're trying to surround the picture. So what I'm suggesting is to consider that if you don't feel whole and something is missing, it makes you more susceptible to being hoovered back into the relationship.
And once you're there, then you're, you're stuck again. So then you feel depressed, you feel sick, and then you try to get out and you miss your abuser. So that's where it gets into [00:07:00] the sort of malicious cycle where it's so hard to exit.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. If, when we are so thirsty for that connection and the connection has been associated in our childhood with pain,
if we have been in childhood circumstances where We understood love as negative attention from a caregiver. So that could be when they, when they were abusive, when they were neglectful, when they were yelling, when they were screaming, right? Negative attention is, is good attention. Yes. If in the other periods of childhood, you were, you were left or you were abandoned or you were cut off from that connection, we associate dysfunctional behavior with love.
So that coupled with feeling really empty or feeling like you don't have a sense of self or you, you can't survive without the connection of another person is something that sets us up to. To go back to these relationships, to stay in these [00:08:00] relationships, to hold on to the hope in these relationships.
So it is coming from a very deeply wounded place.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And we could keep going sort of with the description because I'm curious how you define it as well.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: But what you just touched on is so important in terms of thinking about Where does this come from? You know, like what compels us to stay in this kind of relationship?
And that's one of the sort of critical pieces. There are a couple of more that I want to touch on when we get there, but yeah, the confusion between what is love? It's not even confusion, really. It is that this is love. This is a form of love because this is what I knew. This is the only love that I ever knew growing up.
So if someone questions this, it's just sort of strange to you at first because it hurts, but this is love.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's like asking a fish if it's in water, right? It's like, what is water? Like, I'm just here. So if you've grown up in situations [00:09:00] where that was the, that was the environment, then of course you're going to think that that's what the environment should be in your future relationships.
And that can cause a lot of pain and a lot of confusion back to the confusion point of like, I know on some level this is hurting, but I can't let go of this person. This person's my soulmate. They're my forever. They're the one that I finally found, right? There's often these big descriptors, that we use in these types of relationships.
And it's, it's so hard to detach from, from that need for connection. Cause it's coming from a survival place. You know, as children, if we're growing up in environments with unsafe caregivers, We still need them. We still need to connect to them in order to stay alive, ? It's very based in our survival as a young child.
So we learn to adapt. We learn to make justifications for the behavior, or we learn to blame [00:10:00] ourselves for the behavior. The behavior that the parent is giving, right? If I'm just not lovable, then, then that's easier to understand for a child. Then mom is mentally unwell or mom is an abusive person. So holding onto those facts are really important too.
Because it's such a complicated situation.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And we have to hold onto it because at some point you and I want to talk about techniques or like tools or strategies we could give people.
Speaker 4: And
Speaker 3: in part, it will seem a little strange to think there's something about this abusive relationship that's quite gratifying, you know, and to say that to somebody or to help them try to conceptualize it in that way seems strange.
Speaker 4: But we're
Speaker 3: not saying it's pleasant. We're saying it's gratifying, which suggests that it meets an earlier unmet need. And that's part of, the treatment in terms of technique and [00:11:00] tools is to help somebody increase their sense of awareness that this is exactly what works for you, which is very different than what most people tell them.
Because what most people say is you need to get out of this relationship. Are you crazy?
Speaker 2: Yeah. And come at it from a place of compassion and understanding, of course this works for you because this was the childhood that you were raised. And that's the way that we start to make changes from the place of compassion, not from the place of judgment or criticism. So I love that.
Speaker 3: Was there anything you wanted to add to the description or do you feel comfortable that we'll press on?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, you nailed it in saying that it's a cycle, and it's, it's really that cycle of abuse where you're getting periods of this attention, which we confuse as love and the periods of neglect.
And so when we go through the periods of neglect, we're waiting again for the periods of, of attention and love. And because, because neglect is so strong, when we get that period of [00:12:00] love, the dopamine and the oxytocin that gets released in our brain is like, it floods us, it's so overwhelming because we've been so thirsty for.
That connection,
Speaker 3: Okay. This is good. Because I appreciate the way that you go with it, with what goes on like chemically in one's mind when they get this hit, right? So from a psychodynamic perspective, we could say that hit. is driven by a recognition, like that you feel recognized, that you feel seen, that you feel validated because to your point Bre, this person really loves me, but what they're really saying is this person sees me, they're paying attention to me, even though they may be critical and devaluing me or smacking me around.
You said it a moment ago, negative attention is better than no attention at all. So that is, again, just to use a little bit of psychoanalytic jargon, [00:13:00] that's what we call the magical reunion, so in order to think about what causes this, we have to think about early childhood.
So what happens typically, if you just paint again with a general brush, like what does, what happens, what goes wrong in early childhood that leaves somebody more susceptible to being in this kind of relationship?
Speaker 2: Yeah, when they had the caregiver that is, is giving them the, the attention in the form of abuse.
So we can use, yeah, we confuse that attention with, okay, mom's paying attention to me, even if it hurts. So love, love is equaling pain.
Speaker 3: So they see me, right? So they could see me. And then they pay attention, I feel great, and when they're gone, I feel empty, so that chemical release that you just described is the reunion with the caregiver that goes missing when anybody Or your loved one treats you in a nice [00:14:00] way.
I know this is like so crazy, but I could see this in the couples that I work with, or even the individuals. If they're in this kind of relationship and they have a nice weekend away, for instance, I'm like sitting on the edge of my seat because I know what's coming. And sure enough, you could hear it at the end of the trip or even on the car ride home sometimes.
Something is going to happen because that good experience cannot be tolerated for too long. Why? Because they're missing the love, because that's not love in their mind. And that can be quite boring too, by the way.
Speaker 2: It's almost like, well, it is a rollercoaster ride, right? It's like the highs are very high. The lows are very low. And it's almost as if, We're getting like some hits of dopamine from both sides, from the, the abusive negative attention side, because that's our familiar. And we're like, Oh, this is comfortable here.
And the moments of the, the perceived connection or the initial trip, right? When things are, things [00:15:00] are good for a short period of time, they feel really euphoric,
Speaker 3: yes,
Speaker 2: but they're not, they're not sustainable. They're not longstanding. So we're getting positive feedback, even though it's. Really negative on some parts of it throughout the whole cycle of.
of the Trauma Bind Cycle.
Speaker 3: Okay, so what I heard you say, it's kind of like, no matter where you are, Like, whether it's the, what we call, like, the idealizing, like, the love bombing stage,
or the devaluing stage, none of this is real, they're already in a state, like, some sort of arousal, heightened state of mind, um, the chemical release. It's happening across all stages. Is that safe to say?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think that the underlying energy is unsafety, right? So if we grow up in childhoods that are with abusive parents, there's a, there's a familiarity to being unsafe.
And we're seeking that again in the relationship [00:16:00] with the current partner. So whether we're in the love bomb phase or the discarding phase, which we'll get into a little bit later, we're feeling this, this impermanence, right? It's not a, it's not a safe foundation where we can expect the same thing all the time.
We're used to the highs and the lows and being hyper vigilant and that's the familiar place. Okay.
Speaker 3: Okay. Can I add something to that? Yeah, because If there's a pattern of this, and I don't know the individuals that you work with, but the ones that I do is, you know, most likely there's a personality disorder, right?
So what happens then, let's say somebody like this walks into your office, right, Bre? The question is whether or not you could touch this. If you see this happening, whatever, whatever stage it's in, can you be heard?
And oftentimes, again, just the people that I see. They cannot hear this. I actually gave this example. It seems a little like [00:17:00] off base, but bear with me. It's like someone who's been scammed, right? And what I showed in listening to these stories is that the scammer gets scammed despite his relatives and his daughter and his loved ones telling him, you are being scammed.
They cannot listen. They cannot hear it because they're in a space. That's untouchable. And that's what you made me think of just a moment ago when I said, I haven't really put this content out yet, but there's a concept called a psychic retreat. In other words, they're no longer accessible to a reality based opinion.
And that's why oftentimes self help books are just trying to cheer somebody up or like try to talk reason into them. Like you're being scammed. It doesn't put a dent in this thing. They don't hear it.
Speaker 2: Well, because to hear it means that they would have to accept the reality, which means they would have to accept how painful the situation is [00:18:00] that they're in.
Speaker 3: And they have to come out of this retreat. And to come out of this psychic retreat of pain means deprivation. You see, because then you're asking them to put themselves in a deprivational state of mind, because what are they losing?
Speaker 2: The clients that come to me are typically out of the relationship and looking back and they're like, what was that?
Why was I doing that? So there's a little bit more room for reflect reflection in that, um, experience of trying to understand. Some of them are still in, in the relationships and we're working with kind of surrounding them with, with support and building their confidence and self esteem to be able to, to start to make some moves that would, you know, Bring them more data around the type of relationship that they're in, which we can get to in the treatment part of the part two.
Um, but that if I see what's happening, then I most likely have to [00:19:00] leave the situation, right? On some level, I think we know that, that if I actually acknowledge that I'm in an abusive relationship, then I can't stay in this abusive relationship. So it's almost a little bit. Correct me if I'm misunderstanding the psychic retreat, but it's sort of like putting your head in the sand,
Speaker 5: just
Speaker 2: like, I'm just not gonna acknowledge or really sit with the reality of what's going on.
Speaker 3: Yeah. In part, but it's a mixture of defenses as well. Like really, um, I don't mean this in a pejorative way, but these are really primitive level defenses that are used like denial, projection, which means you're blaming everybody else for your problems or like projective identification, which means you actually, I know this part is going to be very hard to hear.
But you evoke certain, when you're not getting an abusive reaction like that you know, like I just mentioned, they go away for the weekend, you will actually [00:20:00] evoke, not intentionally, not consciously, but you will evoke a response in your loved one to get that heightened state of arousal again that went missing when things were going well.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's, it's a little more complicated. And that's why, again, with the patients that I see, they end, oftentimes they end up back. In a relationship like this. I don't know if you find that experience because you said when they come to you, oftentimes they're out of the relationship, but do they get back in it?
Like, is there a next relationship again? Coincidentally, let's say they end up with another abusive guy or, you know, someone who's, emotionally not available. I don't know if you see that.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah. Yeah. Sometimes they go back to the same person. Sometimes they go back to a similar person and really we have to start to work with.
Changing their familiarity and their comfort level with the chaos. And that comes with a lot of deeper beliefs work and a lot of deeper trauma work. But, but if we don't do that, we're going to just [00:21:00] find the next roller coaster to ride, because, because there, That is our, our safe survival place.
I know how to be on a roller coaster. I know that the ups and downs, I know what love feels like on the roller coaster, love in quotes, um, the healthy love is unfamiliar. Which is uncomfortable because they aren't yet at that place where they can hold that.
Speaker 3: Yes. Yep. Yep.
So right now in terms of theory of like, what causes something like this? We have one thing so far, right? Which is love is associated with pain and that's a big one, right? Because anything positive is going to be rejected. So we need to make some inroad into that. Again, I'm always thinking theory, in my opinion, is so critical because it guides technique in terms of how you're going to work.
So we know we need to work on that front. Then [00:22:00] what, okay, so here's the other one. This one's a little complicated, but this is, um, and I, I spoke about this in more detail in, in some of my, podcast episodes. But this is what's known as pathological mourning. So it's like, what the hell are you talking about pathological mourning?
But what that means is in short, an inability to experience a loss and to give up something. So I'll, I'll. Do this by way of a little example just to sort of ground it. So let's say, , I gave this fictitious case of Mary, which is kind of based on a real story anyway, but she grew up with an alcoholic mother.
Speaker 4: And what I was
Speaker 3: saying, all alcoholic parents are not treated equally. They're different because depending on when they start drinking, how much they drink, how they behave when they drink, very different. But, for Mary, her mother would start drinking in the afternoon, she said. So what that told me is, there was very little together time with her mother, [00:23:00] because when she would come home from school, her mother was already not available.
So what you have is parental non recognition, in other words, there's a loss there of that soothing, caring, loving parent. Then there were intense fights as well. So in order to avoid a lot and, and Mary, someone, by the way, who said this, what you and I were talking about earlier, that at least when my mother was, you know, when my, when my mother and I were fighting, at least I had her exclusive attention and that's amazing.
So she links it up right there. That's Bre Wolta. One of the things, that's one of the theories. The second theory is, when you cannot tolerate a loss, you flee to a trauma bonded relationship. In other words, it kind of patches over the loss. So, and what this means is, Mary left home and she said, My mother is dead to me.
Like, she leaves in a fit of rage and she [00:24:00] marries a man who ends up being abusive. So there's the repetition compulsion. She never really mourned the loss of her mother. And this is what I meant by pathological mourning, which is even though she left and got far away, she never really left home because now she's with a man descriptively who treats her like who?
Just like her mother, right? And then this is really amazing how this works. When she ran into like financial trouble. And she had no place to go. Guess where she went to live, right?
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So she goes back to mom, but with the belief, and this is the love bombing or the idealization with the belief. And when you get close to these people and you get close to their fantasies, this is the stuff you really hear is this is going to be amazing.
I'm going to be the golden child. It's just going to be me and mom. And then she gets back and things are going really well until, because the stuff never lasts very long. [00:25:00] the mother asked to borrow, some money from her and that was enough to set Mary off. And you're like, why would such a small incident be enough to get her enraged with her mother?
Because it breaks the fantasy bond that she's going to be this special child. And that's the magical union that I mentioned earlier. It's just going to be mom and me in this blissful relationship. And there's a fight, there's violence involved. I won't go into all the details, but in essence, what that does is it reestablishes the same exact pattern.
So now it's like, if we're locked in this together, if there's this mutual misery, we're both suffering, this is bliss, you know, like now you really understand me. Now you get me. Now we're connected. And that's what, that's another theory to how this stuff works. Pathological mourning.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I love that so much.
So much. This is so good [00:26:00] because what you just explained is the, the, the importance and, and how vital it is to do deeper healing work around your childhood because, because, Everything is rooted from our early attachment figures. And so again, to come back to that compassion piece, if we can understand what happened, if we can understand why we're, why we have the patterns that we have because of a very real thing that happened, then we can start to work with that.
Um, so yeah, thank you for bringing awareness to that because a lot of people are like, Oh, the childhood is over. I don't want to go back there. And it's like, we have to, , we have, we have to go back there on some capacity to be able to understand where you are now.
Speaker 3: Okay. So let me, let me give you my opinion on this one.
You ready?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: With certain people, you could go back and rework this childhood. With the people that I see, anybody with a personality disorder typically, it's [00:27:00] really difficult to go back because they don't, their mind doesn't work in that way. In other words, they don't see that there's a link between past and present because to understand that implies that you have a capacity for symbolization.
And now the one thing represents another.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And people who are functioning at this level typically do not have the capacity for symbolization. That's something we, they're very concrete.
Speaker 5: Yes. You
Speaker 3: know, it's very black or white. This is another part of it is what we call splitting. And I'm sure you've heard of this concept.
That's another one of those defenses that I mentioned earlier. See, so we're working with so many different things. I mentioned a denial, projection, projective identification, and splitting. Those are the big four.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And when you split, things are just very concrete. So if you try to go back to the past, they could become enraged.
Again, I don't know what, What goes on in your practice, but in my practice, if they're not there, they will become enraged. And they'll be like, what are you talking [00:28:00] about with this psychoanalytic bullshit? You know, like, yeah.
Speaker 2: Are you talking that the narcissistic person would say that?
Speaker 3: Any personality disorder.
Speaker 2: Any personality disorder. Okay. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Any personality disorder, the underlying structure. is typically what we call a borderline organization. And in the borderline organization, they're splitting. It's just a fragmented sense of self. It's just the way it works. Yeah. So I, the way that I work, typically it takes time to get someone to develop this capacity,
Speaker 4: to be
Speaker 3: able to think symbolically and reflect in that way.
So a lot of the early work is in the room, in the moment, in the present, in terms of what's alive. And, you know, like affectively charged, that's where we typically work for a long time. Yeah.
Speaker 2: That's fascinating. I think we're working with different, um, types of clients. So you, it seems like you have more clients who are on, who have some sort of personality disorder who are also getting in abusive relationships with people with personality [00:29:00] disorders, be it narcissism or otherwise.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: And most of the women that are coming to me are, . Deep in their self work, like desire, they really want to understand and they want to put the pieces together. They just haven't found all the pieces yet. And so both is important work, but I think that's a good, um, delineation just in who we're talking about when we're talking about these types of, because any, any person could be in these trauma bonded relationships with whether you have a personality disorder or, or
Speaker 3: otherwise.
Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about a couple of the, well known concepts that are heard in social media or media otherwise.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: So love bombing is one of those pieces. And that is something that is a part of this abusive cycle, this trauma bond cycle that we're talking about.
Um, so give me, give me your understanding of love bombing and any, any sort of examples that you have or, or. Or details that you [00:30:00] have around that.
Speaker 3: You don't want me to start this one because these terms I know are very popular,
Speaker 2: but
Speaker 3: I don't subscribe to them. And like, they're just, you know, the traditional way, like I could talk about them, but I have a very different take on it.
Like for instance, I don't necessarily believe, like, I do of course believe that there is this, phase of a relationship where there's this early period of what flattery, you know, um, whatever it is, what's it, you could do this better than me, Bre. So maybe you could kick it off and then I could jump in, but like over the top love and what we call infatuation, gift giving, they're going to accommodate your needs.
They're going to give you things and make you feel special in a way that you've never felt before. I guess, All that is part of the love bombing phase, is that?
Speaker 2: It is, yeah. Yep, it's a, it's like the one, the one liner that can, describe this is too much too fast. So it feels [00:31:00] like you're being flooded with attention and desire and praise and admiration and love.
You're being just bombarded, overwhelmed, flooded, all of those words with all of this stuff that feels really good to feel. And the person who is love bombing is paying very close attention to the, the things that you are most desiring. So if it's words of affirmation, if it's being chosen, if it is finding your soul mate, right, they're using all of that information to then curate.
the way that they're going to be in order to, to bring you in and really lock you into this, this connection.
Speaker 3: Yes. Okay. Hold on to your seat. All right. Okay. I don't mean to be provocative, but we're surrounding this. So this is what we want to do is give you a listener's a different perspective.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So when I hear that, the way that my mind works. And I feel like apologetic to say this, but I [00:32:00] automatically go to, why is that so important to somebody?
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: In other words, the way I heard you describe it, to me, this is just my own bias. It almost sounds like it's somebody's doing something to you, right?
And then it leaves out everything that you and I have been discussing, which is. The question is why are you so vulnerable to this? Because people already who have feel fulfilled in life will not, will not be flattered by this. You know, there'll be suspicious of it and they could kind of see through it and there'll be a bit leery and they understand that relationships don't work this way.
That's why we date people. We date people to get to know them slowly over time to decide if this is the person for us.
Speaker 4: Yep.
Speaker 3: And I, I know you said earlier that not everybody who gets in these relationships has a personality disorder and I agree with you. But here I would say [00:33:00] there is something going on with somebody who is vulnerable to this kind of love bombing and I would be curious, you know, I'd be sympathetic or understanding of how good that could feel because I want to get as close to their subjective experience as possible so that we can appreciate.
Why again, this works for them. Why this was so gratifying.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean, you nailed it because there is a, there's an emptiness. There is a wound, right? That we're trying to fill with something external. So if I'm looking for, if I don't actually feel worthy or actually feel lovable because of something that happened in my childhood, then I'm going to need something.
I'm going to keep grasping at things. To try to bring them in to make me feel lovable or worthy. I don't have that inherent knowing. So to your point of being unfulfilled, that's exactly what it is where there's a void. So we're looking for whatever can fill the void.
Speaker 3: Well, part of getting out
Speaker 2: [00:34:00] of these types of cycles is Is creating a sense of self is fulfilling your own self and that self love that you're looking for externally, so that we're not so, um, thirsty for it.
Right. It's like we were start or we're, we're. In the desert without water. And this guy comes along with a bucket of water. Like, of course, we're going to need that, but we want to be satisfied on our own so that we're not in such need for that attention or that, that love, quote unquote, that choosing.
Speaker 3: Yes. Yep. Absolutely. And I know you said this is not about personality disorders, but if we're starting to tick them off, that is one of the characteristics of a personality disorder, which is self other differentiation. In other words, in this example, you are now using somebody to meet a need of your own.
So you're not relating to somebody as what we call a whole object in my field. [00:35:00] That's just some psychoanalytic jargon, but basically what it means is you are then with somebody to meet a need of yours, like to borrow from, there's a psychoanalytic theory called self psychology. They would call this a self other object relationship, which means this person functions.
As in, um, sort of as something like a need gratifying object, if I could say it that way. See, I call it object because they're not even a whole person,
Speaker 4: they're
Speaker 3: there just to give you water because you need water and they should be giving you water.
Speaker 2: Which is, is also a form of codependence, right? Or codependence is maybe a parallel to this, where we are dependent on the other person to make us feel okay or to make us,
Speaker 3: yep.
You're absolutely right. Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And that's different than interdependency, which is a healthy form of dependence, which many people confuse.
Speaker 4: But
Speaker 3: we don't have to go down that route, but let's keep going because this is very interesting. I just gave a [00:36:00] different perspective, but what's, what's your, um, You have, I think, like stages of this, right?
So that was the first stage, ?
Speaker 2: So love bombing is a, is, and I want to, I want to be careful of the word stages because the stages
Speaker 5: in
Speaker 2: trauma bonding, there are seven stages and in the stages of narcissistic abuse, there are four, so like some of them overlap, but not every narcissistic relationship is also a trauma bond.
So love bombing is a piece of both of those. Devaluing is a bigger sort of. categorization of, of the steps that can happen in trauma bonding. So that's the kind of the next experience.
Speaker 3: Tell me about devaluing.
Speaker 2: So, we go from love bomb, which is like, you are my everything. You you're my queen. You're my, you're going to be my future wife.
I love you so much. Right. And all this is happening within like a couple of weeks of not knowing the person at all. So we go from that stage and once, once the bond is created and this [00:37:00] bond is from the need for the person to control you, not from a place of affection and love.
So it's not
Speaker 3: Wait, wait, hold on right there.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So again, a different perspective.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: You said the person needing to control you, but you see what you left out, right? We're just doing a fuller picture. Your need to be controlled. Yes. Based on everything we just said before, which is love is control, right?
So you have a need to be controlled. And I just wanted to highlight that Bre, because this gets overlooked again in the social media content and it gives this illusion That people are just saying, , look what this person does to you. And it's hard to really heal from this kind of relationship if you don't understand what, what, remember the word gratifying that we used earlier, what it gratifies in you.
And that's why I think it repeats itself because it's so easy to say, look what [00:38:00] this person did, but then they go and they get in another relationship because they don't understand that they too have a need to be controlled.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Thank you for bringing that up because there are pieces of this where we need to take accountability as the, I will still say victim in this situation because if the abusive person is being abusive, I want to be careful to not, not say that the victim is causing the abuse, right?
But the victim does have certain traits or lack of. Abilities that, make it easier to be in that dynamic. Yeah. So to your point about the, the victim coming from a childhood where they, they are used to being controlled, they are going to seek out somebody who is controlling, but that's not to say that they are causing the abuse, it's just that they're more, they're more familiar with that type of dynamics.
And we
Speaker 3: could say one other thing too, just to add to this, which is, [00:39:00] It, they may also have a perception that they're being controlled and then they tell their girlfriends or their friends, their buddies, you know, if it's a girl, like the guy who feels controlled by the girl, you know, one of the things in terms of working with these patients and psychodynamic therapies, I get to see them quite frequently.
Sometimes patients come to me, many come just once or twice a week, but some come three or four times a week to see me.
Speaker 4: And
Speaker 3: one of the sort of magical pieces of this is what we call transference, is that things get repeated in the room with me.
Speaker 4: And
Speaker 3: oftentimes when things go well, It gets played out in the transference.
And then I am accused
Speaker 4: of
Speaker 3: controlling them because I maybe made an intervention of some sort or help them think about something differently. And then we could talk about how it is that they've chosen to see this space as one of being controlled. See, in [00:40:00] other words, they don't consciously make a choice to do this, but since this is in them, you know, this is love, this is relationships.
Right? If this goes missing, they feel deprived, so they see control. Sometimes, not always, they really do get in these relationships. You know, you can't speak about every, you know, all these different partners out there, but when it's in the room and in the transference, it's very different because you can look at it in a different way.
After I do a little self reflection and I say, did I control them? You know, I need to really think about that. And if I did, I have to be careful.
Speaker 4: But on the
Speaker 3: other hand, sometimes I'm not controlling them, but their subjective experience is still one of being controlled.
Speaker 2: If
Speaker 3: that makes sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And, and from the other side with the, the abusive person, right?
Cause trauma bonding is, is a dynamic with an abusive person and somebody who is used to abuse. I guess we can say it that way.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: So the abusive person is, is in a need for control, ? Because that's how they [00:41:00] know how to connect and relate to people. It's not coming from an authentic, vulnerable attachment like a healthy relationship would be.
So, the, the abusive person is coming at it from a need to control, the victim is coming at it from a familiarity with being controlled, and often in a trauma bonded relationship, that is actually happening, right? The, the control is happening because these cycles are happening. Are being played out.
Speaker 5: Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 2: And when they're in the absence of a relationship, the projection and the transference is happening. Yes. Yes. Mm-Hmm. is happening in other situations because they're, they're needing to make that a familiar experience for themselves.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: So in the, in that devaluing phase. The abusive person really is intentionally taking away , the love and the connection. And I say love in quotes always because love, it's not love in these [00:42:00] relationships, it's just attention. So that person's taking away the attention. They're starting to pick at the victim with intent.
Saying that they're too emotional. They're too needy. They're overreacting. This is where gaslighting can start to come in where they will, they will spin the reality of the situation to make you feel like you don't understand what's going on. So, and it's all coming and you probably could speak to this better, but the person, the abusive person who is doing the devaluing, doing the gaslighting.
It's coming from a place of, of protection of self because. The gaslighting specifically, if I can spin everything and make it the other person's fault, then I don't have to take accountability for anything that's happening.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So it's, it's, I mean, we could analyze the reasons why all this stuff happens, but the experience of being devalued is really going from the honeymoon [00:43:00] stage into the stage that feels very confusing because it's like picking away at your sense of self, picking away at your character.
Um, talking poorly about your friends and family, about your job, about your body, you know, it's, it's, it's devaluing who you are. Mm
Speaker 3: hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. What do you think about that? No, I mean, look, I appreciate the perspective. It's just not what I see, like, in, in my office. Like, when you start getting a lot closer to these experiences, It's a lot more complicated.
Like, I'll just give you one quick example. Not that I'm trying to convince you of anything, Bre.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: But it's like, a woman comes in and complains that her husband's not there. She's emotionally, you know, he had an affair. So he's already the abusive guy, right? He's the neglectful guy. And she's reflecting on the affair, and she becomes very emotional.
And she's in, you know, she's crying. And he Working, you know, through the work, he's become a lot more empathic, he's trying to repair the relationship, he's doing [00:44:00] intensive therapy, so he goes to her to console her, and he says, let's talk about it,, because he wants to understand and not just dismiss it, that he did something that was very damaging, and she says to him, I just need my space, just give me my space, so he doesn't want to suffocate her, and he respects that.
So he goes downstairs and he leaves her alone. So they come into session and she's furious with him. And she's like, he abandoned me again. This is why I can't trust him. You see how he behaves. I'm in a state of desperation. I'm crying, you know, and he leaves me. He always leaves me. But it's, if you just stayed at the manifest level of the story, it's very similar to what you're describing.
And I'm sure what you're describing is true, but it's, what I'm trying to just ask everybody to consider is, it's a little more complicated, because when we get closer to this, and he begins to share his side of the story, and I get very specific with [00:45:00] precise details of exactly what was said, he said, And I said to her, you said, give me my space. And she's like, yeah, but I didn't mean that. And I'm like, well, what did you mean? She's like, I just meant give me a little bit of space. I didn't mean leave. I didn't say leave. And now like we're parsing words and it gets so confusing. And what she eventually sees as we go over this very closely is.
She pushed him away, and he didn't know what to do, and he wanted to be respectful of her,
Speaker 5: and
Speaker 3: she could begin to appreciate that this was not another example. But when she came in, she was convinced that here it is again. He's just being, he's not changing. He's not changing. That, you know, that was sort of the theme of the session.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that sounds almost to me like a relationship that would happen potentially after. an abusive one, right? Where, where the woman is really wounded and has had specific experiences with an abusive person. So she's projecting that onto the new relationship
Speaker 5: because
Speaker 2: in an, [00:46:00] in the trauma bond relationship, in my opinion, the, the abuser would never go to therapy.
They would never care about how she actually felt. They would never try to say, what do you need? And then try to make it, make a conversation. That's
Speaker 3: interesting. Okay. That really is helpful to hear because when I listen to some of the content, right, it's almost like this guy is never going to change. And when I hear that, I'm like, Oh, like, where does this come from?
But if you say that this fellow is not in treatment, he's not invested in changing, then it becomes completely understandable. Yeah. That's a different story.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So that's, I guess the lens that I'm looking through when we talk about trauma bonding is a, a narcissistic person or otherwise abusive person with a personality disorder that prevents them from wanting to do the work to actually have engaging and meaningful relationships.
So they're, they have all these defense mechanisms [00:47:00] with the discarding and the devaluing and the hoovering, these are all tactics that they have adopted to try to have some sort of connection with people without actually having the intimate vulnerable relationship, which is different than people who are like the, like the man in your story, who seems to be very willing and wanting to, to see his side of the street and then take accountability for that.
Speaker 3: So just out of curiosity to digress just for a moment, I guess, in your, like, in your practice, people don't come who are still with the person and they want to work out the relationship. Do you see that?
Speaker 2: It's, it's so dependent on the person. And so some of them have left and they can look back and be like, Well, that was insane. I want to make sure I never go back to a relationship like that and they're ready to take accountability for the parts that they had in it. They're ready to see what it actually was and move forward.
[00:48:00] Some people come to me when they have some. some like tinge of knowing that it's not feeling right, but they can't seem to stop going back or they can't seem to actually leave.
Speaker 3: Right. I see. I see.
Speaker 2: So I have worked with women in the past who are, are choosing to stay in the relationship despite what information we reveal about the relationship.
Speaker 5: Um,
Speaker 2: and with those women, we're working on again, just building the self confidence and building their boundaries and building their boundaries. Their, ability to be able to speak their needs. despite the type of relationship that they're in. So the, my approach looks a little bit different with each, with women, each one of those.
Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah. That makes sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3: All right. So what do we have so far? We have a good description.
Speaker 2: Yes. We have a good description. We talked a little bit about love bombing and what that, what that feels like. Um, the devaluing Peace. Is, [00:49:00] is the kind of where we start to lose the love bomb, lose that, that hopeful place.
And then the discarding stage is another, another piece of this abusive cycle where, the devaluing gets escalated even further.
Speaker 3: Do you
Speaker 5: have
Speaker 2: thoughts about the discarding phase?
Speaker 3: The discarding phase is what I guess is does the relationship end at that point? Is that what happens?
Speaker 2: Sometimes, so sometimes the person, the, I'll, I'll categorize it in the abusive and victim again, or abuser and victim, sometimes the abuser will leave without a lot of explanation or sometimes any explanation and they'll just kind of ghost the person, ice them out, just, just disappear. Sometimes that looks like cheating.
So they're starting to find the next woman to bring it to the love bomb cycle as they're making you feel like you are worth nothing and [00:50:00] acting very strangely in the relationship, pulling away in the relationship. So it can be, they can still be in the relationship technically, but treating you as if you are not worthy of a second glance.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I understand. Yeah. Yeah, that, that, so what you and I have been over, I wanted to sort of surround it with a different perspective. But this one, no. I mean, this one, the way you describe it, sounds horrible. So I don't have any sort of different perspective if, if in fact I can imagine someone who's in this kind of relationship with someone who's actively cheating or discarding them like you said, which means they don't see any value in this person anymore.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Right? My only, I guess I'm just thinking out loud, it's the same thing. But in your situation, it's a little different, but for me, if someone came to me and they were still in this relationship with this kind of person and talking about being [00:51:00] discarded in this way, then naturally, as you know already, just following sort of the way that I think about this is I would try to understand, what's going on What compels you to stay in this kind of relationship?
What's, what's the gratifying piece? Um, what would it be like without him? What do you imagine? And then my guess is, I'm just making belief again, not in your case, but in patients that I may see is, Well, things could change. You see, that's the hope. It goes back to the original definition where we started.
So we're going full circle here.
Speaker 4: Yep.
Speaker 3: That's the hope that things can change. And once I hear that Bre, now you see, there's a lot of work that I could do in this area because the hope is a fantasy and now we're in a world of fantasy. And this leads to one other thing. I don't want to rush you along in your stages, but this is one other thing you spoke about that I heard that I was really impressed with.
Which I think you called a fog, you know, like they're in a fog. [00:52:00] And I, I felt like, Whoa, like we have a concept for that. We call it something else, you know? Um, but we described the same thing. It's kind of like the psychic retreat again, that I mentioned earlier, which is also known another word, I don't want to go too far into this, but it's called a pathological organization because it's made up of all those defenses that we mentioned earlier.
But in short, yes, they're in a fog. Right. It's called, um, you know, like you said, like their head in the sand. Oh, we call it by the way, in my field, like an erotic haze, like it's a haze. You called it a fog, but we call it an erotic because there's a certain level of excitement that goes along, even though they come in and they're complaining, they're still in the relationship or they get in another relationship.
And we call it erotic again because there's something about it that's so gratifying and so exciting and makes them feel so alive. And people who get in this situation typically are those who are, [00:53:00] perhaps more depressed or they have an inner feeling of emptiness or deadness that they cannot tolerate.
So to be in this kind of relationship is on the surface, very painful. But if we look just again, beyond the manifest content, Is very gratifying and fulfilling and holds them together. So they never have to face what's really going on inside of them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I, okay. I'm so excited about this topic. This is one of my favorite things to talk about in terms of all of this stuff, because I call it potential land, this, this place that we dissociate to that, that is the actualization of everything we want.
We want them to get back to how they were in the love bomb phase. We want them to be writing us the notes again. We want them to be going to therapy. We want to not be fighting all the time. We want to have this, this fantasy, this outcome that we were promised in the beginning. And what happens when we [00:54:00] even hope for something, right?
If I let myself start to dream about something and anticipate something, dopamine is released. So I don't even have to have the thing yet. The act of, of anticipating it will give me a dopamine release, which is the gratifying piece of this part of the stages, because if I can live in potential land, then I can live in all the hopes of everything coming true.
And I don't actually have to see that none of it's going to come true. And that, and then therefore have to make the decisions. from there about the relationship, which often means ending it, which means grief and loss and all of the feelings that come with grief and loss.
Speaker 3: Yes. So because they never learned, you see, they never learned to do that because again, in my, in my world, they retreated to a sadomasochistic or trauma bonded relationship from such an early age.
Like that example I gave with Mary, with a mother who was abusive and she kept going back in order to never have to face that loss. [00:55:00] But let me just, I'm so happy that you're excited about the fog, and I want to talk about it more, but I want to ask you, if somebody has their head in the sand.
How do you make an inroad? Like, how do you talk to somebody? It's like the person I mentioned earlier who got scammed and relatives were trying to warn him. They cannot hear anything. They're in this dissociated state, this psychic retreat, whatever we want to call it. It's like, what are the techniques or tools to reach somebody like this?
But that's a whole nother story and we're doing a part two, right? Yeah, I was going
Speaker 2: to say, I think that leads beautifully into telling the listeners that there's going to be a part two here, on Anthony's podcast called the Narcissism Decoder.
So that's going to be coming out on Wednesday. Um, the link is in the show notes for you to follow that podcast but in part two, we're going to talk a lot about how we, as the space holders for these, these people in these situations, help them to navigate out, out of the fog, out of the cycle, [00:56:00] out of the trauma bond experience, um, Yeah.
Anything else you would add to that about what we're going to talk about in part two?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would add this. I'm really exciting, excited to see you on the other end. So let's do it. Part two, we'll go into specific tools and techniques. Okay.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, by the way, again, Bre, for having me on your show.
Speaker 2: And to finish these episodes, I always pull an Oracle card to offer them, the listeners a message this week. So I'd like your participation. I'm just going to shuffle this deck of cards. We're both going to tune in to the message that wants to come through. And then you'll help me choose. The card and I'll read the message from the book.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: Okay. So go ahead and close your eyes for me.
We're just going to take a second, ask what is the message that wants to come through for the anybody listening today? And then whenever you feel like the shuffle's complete, you let me know when to stop.
Speaker 3: Yep, go for
Speaker 2: it. Okay, alright. [00:57:00] So we got effervescent. And you can look at the screen here.
This is, if you're watching the video, it's a card that has a bunch of bubbles on it. So let me find what effervescent is in the book, and I'll read this here. Effervescent is sending you a message of permission to lighten up. Now is the time for effervescence. Be light, bubbly, and unpredictable. Pop your cork.
Spray your message. Spit into the wind. Free yourself from the canister. Effervescent is calling you to raise up parts of yourself that are joyful, quirky, transient, delightful, and refreshing. If you have found yourself flat, it is time to shake it up. So I encourage listeners to see how that resonates for them.
And we're just where they are in their life and in their journey. And we'll see you in part two. I'm going to link everything in the show notes. So you guys know exactly where to go. And thank you again, Anthony, for your time.
Speaker 3: Okay. Bye for now.
I hope this episode was [00:58:00] as mind expansive for you as it was for me to record with Dr. Anthony Mandela. We really, again, wanted to come from this viewpoint of bringing different perspectives to help surround the topic of trauma bonding and to give you something a little bit different than what you might see on social media. So take the information today, let it soak in, let it percolate, let it resonate. And let it see if it can help you better understand where trauma bonding comes from. Why it happens, why we stay and why it perpetuates.
A reminder for some of the topics that we covered today, we talked about how codependency and love bombing are related.
We talked extensively about how we use trauma bonded relationships to actually help us avoid feeling deeper grief from our childhood. And why the rollercoaster of trauma bonded relationships feel safe. As always such a pleasure to be here with you all is talking about [00:59:00] topics that I know can feel challenging to explore.
And I just want to say thank you for being open to. Uh, hearing about these concepts and if you're in a situation like this, No, that you can always reach out to me. I've several different links in the show notes of ways to get in touch resources that might be helpful to you at the end of the day. This podcast is for you and you are not alone. Until next time.
Speaker 3: Despite knowing that this person continues to hurt you , you feel a sense of hope. That's a key characteristic that we need to unpack, that things are going to be different, that things are going to change.
Speaker: Welcome to Heartbreak to Wholeness, the podcast helping you heal from the mindfuck of narcissistic relationships and move towards the secure, peaceful woman you want to become. We will explore all of the tools that you need to get through your grief, to move past those I'll be alone forever fears, and rebuild your confidence so you can move forward in healthy relationships as your full self.
Never to get sucked into the narcissistic spell again. I am your host, Bre Wolta, Relationship Clarity Coach and EFT Certified Practitioner. Let's dive in.
Welcome to this episode.
I am talking this week with Dr. Anthony Missoula. He is a highly experienced psychoanalyst and [00:01:00] psychotherapist. And we are going to be talking about trauma bonding. We're adding onto an episode that I did. Number 31 called trauma bonding, what it is and how to avoid it.
And your next relationship. That episode was so highly sought after that I wanted to continue the conversation. And Dr. Anthony offers some really unique perspectives around trauma bonding. So he works with personality disorder, individuals and couples, and brings a different lens, a different perspective to what trauma bonding is. Where it originates and how it perpetuates. So this episode was really fun for me because Anthony and I at times share very different perspectives.
And our goal with this episode was to really wrap the concept of trauma bonding in a couple of different viewpoints
so we get to talk about the deeper interpersonal dynamics that play into trauma, bonded relationships. [00:02:00] Really answering the question of why we stay and why, what makes it so goddamn hard to leave? We cover things like. How codependency and love bombing are related. How trauma bonded relationships helps us to avoid actually deeper grief and mourning that we are on some level consciously or not avoiding from childhood. And why this rollercoaster feels safe.
Despite the abuse that we are experiencing.
Following this episode, you will find part two where Anthony and I really go into some treatment modalities and what this can look like if you're in these situations to heal from this trauma bond. You can find part two on his podcasts. It's called the narcissism decoder. And I'm going to link to that in the show notes below. And remember to stick around to the end of the episode or where I will pull an Oracle card that will offer you a specific message that you can take [00:03:00] forward this week in your healing. And if you missed the announcement last week, we have moved to publishing episodes on Wednesdays instead of Fridays, which is why you're getting this on a Wednesday from now and here forward. Enjoy this episode.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the podcast, Anthony. I am so happy to have you here.
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you so much. I, it's my pleasure. I'm happy to be here and I'm excited to, to talk about trauma bonding.
So. I want to just say, I want to give a disclaimer alert to your listeners.
Okay. We want to surround the concept, right. Yeah. Of trauma bonding. So we're looking at it maybe from different perspectives and we could say it's deeper, but the disclaimer alert is since we're surrounding the concept is, I want to look at how it gets more complicated than it's just somebody's in a relationship with a narcissistically disturbed abusive person.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: That it's more complicated that there's an [00:04:00] interpersonal dynamic that gets played out
Speaker 4: that
Speaker 3: we really want to unpack and understand. And the disclaimer alert is if any of your listeners are in this kind of relationship, I am, and I have to say this, I'm not suggesting that anyone should stay with that kind of person, but I just want to, you know, sort of help people understand the reasons why they may stay with this person and find it so difficult to, you know, to exit the relationship, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. That's the number one thing that I hear from women and that I experienced myself was just this total confusion around why we stay or go back to people who have treated us really poorly. And we have the rational understanding that something is not right, but there's a deeper part of us that's pulling us So I think giving listeners the information to help them find clarity on all about clarity is going to be incredible.
Speaker 3: Okay, great.
Speaker 2: So let's talk about what the [00:05:00] heck trauma bonding even is. If nobody has listened to anything around trauma bonding before, uh, how would you describe trauma bonding?
Speaker 3: Okay, so from my perspective, it's a pattern, and that's an important word that I want to emphasize, that it's a pattern where a person is bonded in a relationship that's characterized by manipulation, invalidation, emotional, or other forms of abusive behavior, right?
Yeah. Despite knowing that this person continues to hurt you in similar ways, you feel a sense of hope. You see, so even though you know this happens, you are still hopeful. That's a key characteristic that we need to unpack, that things are going to be different, that things are going to change. So you feel stuck in this negative loop and you have no control, which is what you just alluded to, Bre, right?
Yeah. And when you try to detach, [00:06:00] you're unsuccessful. That's part of the pattern.
Speaker 4: Because
Speaker 3: when you detach, you don't feel whole anymore. Like it feels like something's missing when this person is not in your life. And there's this concept that they can hoover you back in. But in part, the hoovering, you know, it's looked at again and usually in a particular way in the social media content where the narcissistic individual.
Is like putting their claws in you and getting you to come back with these manipulative techniques, which could be partly true, but we're trying to surround the picture. So what I'm suggesting is to consider that if you don't feel whole and something is missing, it makes you more susceptible to being hoovered back into the relationship.
And once you're there, then you're, you're stuck again. So then you feel depressed, you feel sick, and then you try to get out and you miss your abuser. So that's where it gets into [00:07:00] the sort of malicious cycle where it's so hard to exit.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. If, when we are so thirsty for that connection and the connection has been associated in our childhood with pain,
if we have been in childhood circumstances where We understood love as negative attention from a caregiver. So that could be when they, when they were abusive, when they were neglectful, when they were yelling, when they were screaming, right? Negative attention is, is good attention. Yes. If in the other periods of childhood, you were, you were left or you were abandoned or you were cut off from that connection, we associate dysfunctional behavior with love.
So that coupled with feeling really empty or feeling like you don't have a sense of self or you, you can't survive without the connection of another person is something that sets us up to. To go back to these relationships, to stay in these [00:08:00] relationships, to hold on to the hope in these relationships.
So it is coming from a very deeply wounded place.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And we could keep going sort of with the description because I'm curious how you define it as well.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: But what you just touched on is so important in terms of thinking about Where does this come from? You know, like what compels us to stay in this kind of relationship?
And that's one of the sort of critical pieces. There are a couple of more that I want to touch on when we get there, but yeah, the confusion between what is love? It's not even confusion, really. It is that this is love. This is a form of love because this is what I knew. This is the only love that I ever knew growing up.
So if someone questions this, it's just sort of strange to you at first because it hurts, but this is love.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's like asking a fish if it's in water, right? It's like, what is water? Like, I'm just here. So if you've grown up in situations [00:09:00] where that was the, that was the environment, then of course you're going to think that that's what the environment should be in your future relationships.
And that can cause a lot of pain and a lot of confusion back to the confusion point of like, I know on some level this is hurting, but I can't let go of this person. This person's my soulmate. They're my forever. They're the one that I finally found, right? There's often these big descriptors, that we use in these types of relationships.
And it's, it's so hard to detach from, from that need for connection. Cause it's coming from a survival place. You know, as children, if we're growing up in environments with unsafe caregivers, We still need them. We still need to connect to them in order to stay alive, ? It's very based in our survival as a young child.
So we learn to adapt. We learn to make justifications for the behavior, or we learn to blame [00:10:00] ourselves for the behavior. The behavior that the parent is giving, right? If I'm just not lovable, then, then that's easier to understand for a child. Then mom is mentally unwell or mom is an abusive person. So holding onto those facts are really important too.
Because it's such a complicated situation.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And we have to hold onto it because at some point you and I want to talk about techniques or like tools or strategies we could give people.
Speaker 4: And
Speaker 3: in part, it will seem a little strange to think there's something about this abusive relationship that's quite gratifying, you know, and to say that to somebody or to help them try to conceptualize it in that way seems strange.
Speaker 4: But we're
Speaker 3: not saying it's pleasant. We're saying it's gratifying, which suggests that it meets an earlier unmet need. And that's part of, the treatment in terms of technique and [00:11:00] tools is to help somebody increase their sense of awareness that this is exactly what works for you, which is very different than what most people tell them.
Because what most people say is you need to get out of this relationship. Are you crazy?
Speaker 2: Yeah. And come at it from a place of compassion and understanding, of course this works for you because this was the childhood that you were raised. And that's the way that we start to make changes from the place of compassion, not from the place of judgment or criticism. So I love that.
Speaker 3: Was there anything you wanted to add to the description or do you feel comfortable that we'll press on?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, you nailed it in saying that it's a cycle, and it's, it's really that cycle of abuse where you're getting periods of this attention, which we confuse as love and the periods of neglect.
And so when we go through the periods of neglect, we're waiting again for the periods of, of attention and love. And because, because neglect is so strong, when we get that period of [00:12:00] love, the dopamine and the oxytocin that gets released in our brain is like, it floods us, it's so overwhelming because we've been so thirsty for.
That connection,
Speaker 3: Okay. This is good. Because I appreciate the way that you go with it, with what goes on like chemically in one's mind when they get this hit, right? So from a psychodynamic perspective, we could say that hit. is driven by a recognition, like that you feel recognized, that you feel seen, that you feel validated because to your point Bre, this person really loves me, but what they're really saying is this person sees me, they're paying attention to me, even though they may be critical and devaluing me or smacking me around.
You said it a moment ago, negative attention is better than no attention at all. So that is, again, just to use a little bit of psychoanalytic jargon, [00:13:00] that's what we call the magical reunion, so in order to think about what causes this, we have to think about early childhood.
So what happens typically, if you just paint again with a general brush, like what does, what happens, what goes wrong in early childhood that leaves somebody more susceptible to being in this kind of relationship?
Speaker 2: Yeah, when they had the caregiver that is, is giving them the, the attention in the form of abuse.
So we can use, yeah, we confuse that attention with, okay, mom's paying attention to me, even if it hurts. So love, love is equaling pain.
Speaker 3: So they see me, right? So they could see me. And then they pay attention, I feel great, and when they're gone, I feel empty, so that chemical release that you just described is the reunion with the caregiver that goes missing when anybody Or your loved one treats you in a nice [00:14:00] way.
I know this is like so crazy, but I could see this in the couples that I work with, or even the individuals. If they're in this kind of relationship and they have a nice weekend away, for instance, I'm like sitting on the edge of my seat because I know what's coming. And sure enough, you could hear it at the end of the trip or even on the car ride home sometimes.
Something is going to happen because that good experience cannot be tolerated for too long. Why? Because they're missing the love, because that's not love in their mind. And that can be quite boring too, by the way.
Speaker 2: It's almost like, well, it is a rollercoaster ride, right? It's like the highs are very high. The lows are very low. And it's almost as if, We're getting like some hits of dopamine from both sides, from the, the abusive negative attention side, because that's our familiar. And we're like, Oh, this is comfortable here.
And the moments of the, the perceived connection or the initial trip, right? When things are, things [00:15:00] are good for a short period of time, they feel really euphoric,
Speaker 3: yes,
Speaker 2: but they're not, they're not sustainable. They're not longstanding. So we're getting positive feedback, even though it's. Really negative on some parts of it throughout the whole cycle of.
of the Trauma Bind Cycle.
Speaker 3: Okay, so what I heard you say, it's kind of like, no matter where you are, Like, whether it's the, what we call, like, the idealizing, like, the love bombing stage,
or the devaluing stage, none of this is real, they're already in a state, like, some sort of arousal, heightened state of mind, um, the chemical release. It's happening across all stages. Is that safe to say?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think that the underlying energy is unsafety, right? So if we grow up in childhoods that are with abusive parents, there's a, there's a familiarity to being unsafe.
And we're seeking that again in the relationship [00:16:00] with the current partner. So whether we're in the love bomb phase or the discarding phase, which we'll get into a little bit later, we're feeling this, this impermanence, right? It's not a, it's not a safe foundation where we can expect the same thing all the time.
We're used to the highs and the lows and being hyper vigilant and that's the familiar place. Okay.
Speaker 3: Okay. Can I add something to that? Yeah, because If there's a pattern of this, and I don't know the individuals that you work with, but the ones that I do is, you know, most likely there's a personality disorder, right?
So what happens then, let's say somebody like this walks into your office, right, Bre? The question is whether or not you could touch this. If you see this happening, whatever, whatever stage it's in, can you be heard?
And oftentimes, again, just the people that I see. They cannot hear this. I actually gave this example. It seems a little like [00:17:00] off base, but bear with me. It's like someone who's been scammed, right? And what I showed in listening to these stories is that the scammer gets scammed despite his relatives and his daughter and his loved ones telling him, you are being scammed.
They cannot listen. They cannot hear it because they're in a space. That's untouchable. And that's what you made me think of just a moment ago when I said, I haven't really put this content out yet, but there's a concept called a psychic retreat. In other words, they're no longer accessible to a reality based opinion.
And that's why oftentimes self help books are just trying to cheer somebody up or like try to talk reason into them. Like you're being scammed. It doesn't put a dent in this thing. They don't hear it.
Speaker 2: Well, because to hear it means that they would have to accept the reality, which means they would have to accept how painful the situation is [00:18:00] that they're in.
Speaker 3: And they have to come out of this retreat. And to come out of this psychic retreat of pain means deprivation. You see, because then you're asking them to put themselves in a deprivational state of mind, because what are they losing?
Speaker 2: The clients that come to me are typically out of the relationship and looking back and they're like, what was that?
Why was I doing that? So there's a little bit more room for reflect reflection in that, um, experience of trying to understand. Some of them are still in, in the relationships and we're working with kind of surrounding them with, with support and building their confidence and self esteem to be able to, to start to make some moves that would, you know, Bring them more data around the type of relationship that they're in, which we can get to in the treatment part of the part two.
Um, but that if I see what's happening, then I most likely have to [00:19:00] leave the situation, right? On some level, I think we know that, that if I actually acknowledge that I'm in an abusive relationship, then I can't stay in this abusive relationship. So it's almost a little bit. Correct me if I'm misunderstanding the psychic retreat, but it's sort of like putting your head in the sand,
Speaker 5: just
Speaker 2: like, I'm just not gonna acknowledge or really sit with the reality of what's going on.
Speaker 3: Yeah. In part, but it's a mixture of defenses as well. Like really, um, I don't mean this in a pejorative way, but these are really primitive level defenses that are used like denial, projection, which means you're blaming everybody else for your problems or like projective identification, which means you actually, I know this part is going to be very hard to hear.
But you evoke certain, when you're not getting an abusive reaction like that you know, like I just mentioned, they go away for the weekend, you will actually [00:20:00] evoke, not intentionally, not consciously, but you will evoke a response in your loved one to get that heightened state of arousal again that went missing when things were going well.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's, it's a little more complicated. And that's why, again, with the patients that I see, they end, oftentimes they end up back. In a relationship like this. I don't know if you find that experience because you said when they come to you, oftentimes they're out of the relationship, but do they get back in it?
Like, is there a next relationship again? Coincidentally, let's say they end up with another abusive guy or, you know, someone who's, emotionally not available. I don't know if you see that.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah. Yeah. Sometimes they go back to the same person. Sometimes they go back to a similar person and really we have to start to work with.
Changing their familiarity and their comfort level with the chaos. And that comes with a lot of deeper beliefs work and a lot of deeper trauma work. But, but if we don't do that, we're going to just [00:21:00] find the next roller coaster to ride, because, because there, That is our, our safe survival place.
I know how to be on a roller coaster. I know that the ups and downs, I know what love feels like on the roller coaster, love in quotes, um, the healthy love is unfamiliar. Which is uncomfortable because they aren't yet at that place where they can hold that.
Speaker 3: Yes. Yep. Yep.
So right now in terms of theory of like, what causes something like this? We have one thing so far, right? Which is love is associated with pain and that's a big one, right? Because anything positive is going to be rejected. So we need to make some inroad into that. Again, I'm always thinking theory, in my opinion, is so critical because it guides technique in terms of how you're going to work.
So we know we need to work on that front. Then [00:22:00] what, okay, so here's the other one. This one's a little complicated, but this is, um, and I, I spoke about this in more detail in, in some of my, podcast episodes. But this is what's known as pathological mourning. So it's like, what the hell are you talking about pathological mourning?
But what that means is in short, an inability to experience a loss and to give up something. So I'll, I'll. Do this by way of a little example just to sort of ground it. So let's say, , I gave this fictitious case of Mary, which is kind of based on a real story anyway, but she grew up with an alcoholic mother.
Speaker 4: And what I was
Speaker 3: saying, all alcoholic parents are not treated equally. They're different because depending on when they start drinking, how much they drink, how they behave when they drink, very different. But, for Mary, her mother would start drinking in the afternoon, she said. So what that told me is, there was very little together time with her mother, [00:23:00] because when she would come home from school, her mother was already not available.
So what you have is parental non recognition, in other words, there's a loss there of that soothing, caring, loving parent. Then there were intense fights as well. So in order to avoid a lot and, and Mary, someone, by the way, who said this, what you and I were talking about earlier, that at least when my mother was, you know, when my, when my mother and I were fighting, at least I had her exclusive attention and that's amazing.
So she links it up right there. That's Bre Wolta. One of the things, that's one of the theories. The second theory is, when you cannot tolerate a loss, you flee to a trauma bonded relationship. In other words, it kind of patches over the loss. So, and what this means is, Mary left home and she said, My mother is dead to me.
Like, she leaves in a fit of rage and she [00:24:00] marries a man who ends up being abusive. So there's the repetition compulsion. She never really mourned the loss of her mother. And this is what I meant by pathological mourning, which is even though she left and got far away, she never really left home because now she's with a man descriptively who treats her like who?
Just like her mother, right? And then this is really amazing how this works. When she ran into like financial trouble. And she had no place to go. Guess where she went to live, right?
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So she goes back to mom, but with the belief, and this is the love bombing or the idealization with the belief. And when you get close to these people and you get close to their fantasies, this is the stuff you really hear is this is going to be amazing.
I'm going to be the golden child. It's just going to be me and mom. And then she gets back and things are going really well until, because the stuff never lasts very long. [00:25:00] the mother asked to borrow, some money from her and that was enough to set Mary off. And you're like, why would such a small incident be enough to get her enraged with her mother?
Because it breaks the fantasy bond that she's going to be this special child. And that's the magical union that I mentioned earlier. It's just going to be mom and me in this blissful relationship. And there's a fight, there's violence involved. I won't go into all the details, but in essence, what that does is it reestablishes the same exact pattern.
So now it's like, if we're locked in this together, if there's this mutual misery, we're both suffering, this is bliss, you know, like now you really understand me. Now you get me. Now we're connected. And that's what, that's another theory to how this stuff works. Pathological mourning.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I love that so much.
So much. This is so good [00:26:00] because what you just explained is the, the, the importance and, and how vital it is to do deeper healing work around your childhood because, because, Everything is rooted from our early attachment figures. And so again, to come back to that compassion piece, if we can understand what happened, if we can understand why we're, why we have the patterns that we have because of a very real thing that happened, then we can start to work with that.
Um, so yeah, thank you for bringing awareness to that because a lot of people are like, Oh, the childhood is over. I don't want to go back there. And it's like, we have to, , we have, we have to go back there on some capacity to be able to understand where you are now.
Speaker 3: Okay. So let me, let me give you my opinion on this one.
You ready?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: With certain people, you could go back and rework this childhood. With the people that I see, anybody with a personality disorder typically, it's [00:27:00] really difficult to go back because they don't, their mind doesn't work in that way. In other words, they don't see that there's a link between past and present because to understand that implies that you have a capacity for symbolization.
And now the one thing represents another.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And people who are functioning at this level typically do not have the capacity for symbolization. That's something we, they're very concrete.
Speaker 5: Yes. You
Speaker 3: know, it's very black or white. This is another part of it is what we call splitting. And I'm sure you've heard of this concept.
That's another one of those defenses that I mentioned earlier. See, so we're working with so many different things. I mentioned a denial, projection, projective identification, and splitting. Those are the big four.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And when you split, things are just very concrete. So if you try to go back to the past, they could become enraged.
Again, I don't know what, What goes on in your practice, but in my practice, if they're not there, they will become enraged. And they'll be like, what are you talking [00:28:00] about with this psychoanalytic bullshit? You know, like, yeah.
Speaker 2: Are you talking that the narcissistic person would say that?
Speaker 3: Any personality disorder.
Speaker 2: Any personality disorder. Okay. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Any personality disorder, the underlying structure. is typically what we call a borderline organization. And in the borderline organization, they're splitting. It's just a fragmented sense of self. It's just the way it works. Yeah. So I, the way that I work, typically it takes time to get someone to develop this capacity,
Speaker 4: to be
Speaker 3: able to think symbolically and reflect in that way.
So a lot of the early work is in the room, in the moment, in the present, in terms of what's alive. And, you know, like affectively charged, that's where we typically work for a long time. Yeah.
Speaker 2: That's fascinating. I think we're working with different, um, types of clients. So you, it seems like you have more clients who are on, who have some sort of personality disorder who are also getting in abusive relationships with people with personality [00:29:00] disorders, be it narcissism or otherwise.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: And most of the women that are coming to me are, . Deep in their self work, like desire, they really want to understand and they want to put the pieces together. They just haven't found all the pieces yet. And so both is important work, but I think that's a good, um, delineation just in who we're talking about when we're talking about these types of, because any, any person could be in these trauma bonded relationships with whether you have a personality disorder or, or
Speaker 3: otherwise.
Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about a couple of the, well known concepts that are heard in social media or media otherwise.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: So love bombing is one of those pieces. And that is something that is a part of this abusive cycle, this trauma bond cycle that we're talking about.
Um, so give me, give me your understanding of love bombing and any, any sort of examples that you have or, or. Or details that you [00:30:00] have around that.
Speaker 3: You don't want me to start this one because these terms I know are very popular,
Speaker 2: but
Speaker 3: I don't subscribe to them. And like, they're just, you know, the traditional way, like I could talk about them, but I have a very different take on it.
Like for instance, I don't necessarily believe, like, I do of course believe that there is this, phase of a relationship where there's this early period of what flattery, you know, um, whatever it is, what's it, you could do this better than me, Bre. So maybe you could kick it off and then I could jump in, but like over the top love and what we call infatuation, gift giving, they're going to accommodate your needs.
They're going to give you things and make you feel special in a way that you've never felt before. I guess, All that is part of the love bombing phase, is that?
Speaker 2: It is, yeah. Yep, it's a, it's like the one, the one liner that can, describe this is too much too fast. So it feels [00:31:00] like you're being flooded with attention and desire and praise and admiration and love.
You're being just bombarded, overwhelmed, flooded, all of those words with all of this stuff that feels really good to feel. And the person who is love bombing is paying very close attention to the, the things that you are most desiring. So if it's words of affirmation, if it's being chosen, if it is finding your soul mate, right, they're using all of that information to then curate.
the way that they're going to be in order to, to bring you in and really lock you into this, this connection.
Speaker 3: Yes. Okay. Hold on to your seat. All right. Okay. I don't mean to be provocative, but we're surrounding this. So this is what we want to do is give you a listener's a different perspective.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So when I hear that, the way that my mind works. And I feel like apologetic to say this, but I [00:32:00] automatically go to, why is that so important to somebody?
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: In other words, the way I heard you describe it, to me, this is just my own bias. It almost sounds like it's somebody's doing something to you, right?
And then it leaves out everything that you and I have been discussing, which is. The question is why are you so vulnerable to this? Because people already who have feel fulfilled in life will not, will not be flattered by this. You know, there'll be suspicious of it and they could kind of see through it and there'll be a bit leery and they understand that relationships don't work this way.
That's why we date people. We date people to get to know them slowly over time to decide if this is the person for us.
Speaker 4: Yep.
Speaker 3: And I, I know you said earlier that not everybody who gets in these relationships has a personality disorder and I agree with you. But here I would say [00:33:00] there is something going on with somebody who is vulnerable to this kind of love bombing and I would be curious, you know, I'd be sympathetic or understanding of how good that could feel because I want to get as close to their subjective experience as possible so that we can appreciate.
Why again, this works for them. Why this was so gratifying.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean, you nailed it because there is a, there's an emptiness. There is a wound, right? That we're trying to fill with something external. So if I'm looking for, if I don't actually feel worthy or actually feel lovable because of something that happened in my childhood, then I'm going to need something.
I'm going to keep grasping at things. To try to bring them in to make me feel lovable or worthy. I don't have that inherent knowing. So to your point of being unfulfilled, that's exactly what it is where there's a void. So we're looking for whatever can fill the void.
Speaker 3: Well, part of getting out
Speaker 2: [00:34:00] of these types of cycles is Is creating a sense of self is fulfilling your own self and that self love that you're looking for externally, so that we're not so, um, thirsty for it.
Right. It's like we were start or we're, we're. In the desert without water. And this guy comes along with a bucket of water. Like, of course, we're going to need that, but we want to be satisfied on our own so that we're not in such need for that attention or that, that love, quote unquote, that choosing.
Speaker 3: Yes. Yep. Absolutely. And I know you said this is not about personality disorders, but if we're starting to tick them off, that is one of the characteristics of a personality disorder, which is self other differentiation. In other words, in this example, you are now using somebody to meet a need of your own.
So you're not relating to somebody as what we call a whole object in my field. [00:35:00] That's just some psychoanalytic jargon, but basically what it means is you are then with somebody to meet a need of yours, like to borrow from, there's a psychoanalytic theory called self psychology. They would call this a self other object relationship, which means this person functions.
As in, um, sort of as something like a need gratifying object, if I could say it that way. See, I call it object because they're not even a whole person,
Speaker 4: they're
Speaker 3: there just to give you water because you need water and they should be giving you water.
Speaker 2: Which is, is also a form of codependence, right? Or codependence is maybe a parallel to this, where we are dependent on the other person to make us feel okay or to make us,
Speaker 3: yep.
You're absolutely right. Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And that's different than interdependency, which is a healthy form of dependence, which many people confuse.
Speaker 4: But
Speaker 3: we don't have to go down that route, but let's keep going because this is very interesting. I just gave a [00:36:00] different perspective, but what's, what's your, um, You have, I think, like stages of this, right?
So that was the first stage, ?
Speaker 2: So love bombing is a, is, and I want to, I want to be careful of the word stages because the stages
Speaker 5: in
Speaker 2: trauma bonding, there are seven stages and in the stages of narcissistic abuse, there are four, so like some of them overlap, but not every narcissistic relationship is also a trauma bond.
So love bombing is a piece of both of those. Devaluing is a bigger sort of. categorization of, of the steps that can happen in trauma bonding. So that's the kind of the next experience.
Speaker 3: Tell me about devaluing.
Speaker 2: So, we go from love bomb, which is like, you are my everything. You you're my queen. You're my, you're going to be my future wife.
I love you so much. Right. And all this is happening within like a couple of weeks of not knowing the person at all. So we go from that stage and once, once the bond is created and this [00:37:00] bond is from the need for the person to control you, not from a place of affection and love.
So it's not
Speaker 3: Wait, wait, hold on right there.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So again, a different perspective.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: You said the person needing to control you, but you see what you left out, right? We're just doing a fuller picture. Your need to be controlled. Yes. Based on everything we just said before, which is love is control, right?
So you have a need to be controlled. And I just wanted to highlight that Bre, because this gets overlooked again in the social media content and it gives this illusion That people are just saying, , look what this person does to you. And it's hard to really heal from this kind of relationship if you don't understand what, what, remember the word gratifying that we used earlier, what it gratifies in you.
And that's why I think it repeats itself because it's so easy to say, look what [00:38:00] this person did, but then they go and they get in another relationship because they don't understand that they too have a need to be controlled.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Thank you for bringing that up because there are pieces of this where we need to take accountability as the, I will still say victim in this situation because if the abusive person is being abusive, I want to be careful to not, not say that the victim is causing the abuse, right?
But the victim does have certain traits or lack of. Abilities that, make it easier to be in that dynamic. Yeah. So to your point about the, the victim coming from a childhood where they, they are used to being controlled, they are going to seek out somebody who is controlling, but that's not to say that they are causing the abuse, it's just that they're more, they're more familiar with that type of dynamics.
And we
Speaker 3: could say one other thing too, just to add to this, which is, [00:39:00] It, they may also have a perception that they're being controlled and then they tell their girlfriends or their friends, their buddies, you know, if it's a girl, like the guy who feels controlled by the girl, you know, one of the things in terms of working with these patients and psychodynamic therapies, I get to see them quite frequently.
Sometimes patients come to me, many come just once or twice a week, but some come three or four times a week to see me.
Speaker 4: And
Speaker 3: one of the sort of magical pieces of this is what we call transference, is that things get repeated in the room with me.
Speaker 4: And
Speaker 3: oftentimes when things go well, It gets played out in the transference.
And then I am accused
Speaker 4: of
Speaker 3: controlling them because I maybe made an intervention of some sort or help them think about something differently. And then we could talk about how it is that they've chosen to see this space as one of being controlled. See, in [00:40:00] other words, they don't consciously make a choice to do this, but since this is in them, you know, this is love, this is relationships.
Right? If this goes missing, they feel deprived, so they see control. Sometimes, not always, they really do get in these relationships. You know, you can't speak about every, you know, all these different partners out there, but when it's in the room and in the transference, it's very different because you can look at it in a different way.
After I do a little self reflection and I say, did I control them? You know, I need to really think about that. And if I did, I have to be careful.
Speaker 4: But on the
Speaker 3: other hand, sometimes I'm not controlling them, but their subjective experience is still one of being controlled.
Speaker 2: If
Speaker 3: that makes sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And, and from the other side with the, the abusive person, right?
Cause trauma bonding is, is a dynamic with an abusive person and somebody who is used to abuse. I guess we can say it that way.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: So the abusive person is, is in a need for control, ? Because that's how they [00:41:00] know how to connect and relate to people. It's not coming from an authentic, vulnerable attachment like a healthy relationship would be.
So, the, the abusive person is coming at it from a need to control, the victim is coming at it from a familiarity with being controlled, and often in a trauma bonded relationship, that is actually happening, right? The, the control is happening because these cycles are happening. Are being played out.
Speaker 5: Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 2: And when they're in the absence of a relationship, the projection and the transference is happening. Yes. Yes. Mm-Hmm. is happening in other situations because they're, they're needing to make that a familiar experience for themselves.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: So in the, in that devaluing phase. The abusive person really is intentionally taking away , the love and the connection. And I say love in quotes always because love, it's not love in these [00:42:00] relationships, it's just attention. So that person's taking away the attention. They're starting to pick at the victim with intent.
Saying that they're too emotional. They're too needy. They're overreacting. This is where gaslighting can start to come in where they will, they will spin the reality of the situation to make you feel like you don't understand what's going on. So, and it's all coming and you probably could speak to this better, but the person, the abusive person who is doing the devaluing, doing the gaslighting.
It's coming from a place of, of protection of self because. The gaslighting specifically, if I can spin everything and make it the other person's fault, then I don't have to take accountability for anything that's happening.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So it's, it's, I mean, we could analyze the reasons why all this stuff happens, but the experience of being devalued is really going from the honeymoon [00:43:00] stage into the stage that feels very confusing because it's like picking away at your sense of self, picking away at your character.
Um, talking poorly about your friends and family, about your job, about your body, you know, it's, it's, it's devaluing who you are. Mm
Speaker 3: hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. What do you think about that? No, I mean, look, I appreciate the perspective. It's just not what I see, like, in, in my office. Like, when you start getting a lot closer to these experiences, It's a lot more complicated.
Like, I'll just give you one quick example. Not that I'm trying to convince you of anything, Bre.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: But it's like, a woman comes in and complains that her husband's not there. She's emotionally, you know, he had an affair. So he's already the abusive guy, right? He's the neglectful guy. And she's reflecting on the affair, and she becomes very emotional.
And she's in, you know, she's crying. And he Working, you know, through the work, he's become a lot more empathic, he's trying to repair the relationship, he's doing [00:44:00] intensive therapy, so he goes to her to console her, and he says, let's talk about it,, because he wants to understand and not just dismiss it, that he did something that was very damaging, and she says to him, I just need my space, just give me my space, so he doesn't want to suffocate her, and he respects that.
So he goes downstairs and he leaves her alone. So they come into session and she's furious with him. And she's like, he abandoned me again. This is why I can't trust him. You see how he behaves. I'm in a state of desperation. I'm crying, you know, and he leaves me. He always leaves me. But it's, if you just stayed at the manifest level of the story, it's very similar to what you're describing.
And I'm sure what you're describing is true, but it's, what I'm trying to just ask everybody to consider is, it's a little more complicated, because when we get closer to this, and he begins to share his side of the story, and I get very specific with [00:45:00] precise details of exactly what was said, he said, And I said to her, you said, give me my space. And she's like, yeah, but I didn't mean that. And I'm like, well, what did you mean? She's like, I just meant give me a little bit of space. I didn't mean leave. I didn't say leave. And now like we're parsing words and it gets so confusing. And what she eventually sees as we go over this very closely is.
She pushed him away, and he didn't know what to do, and he wanted to be respectful of her,
Speaker 5: and
Speaker 3: she could begin to appreciate that this was not another example. But when she came in, she was convinced that here it is again. He's just being, he's not changing. He's not changing. That, you know, that was sort of the theme of the session.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that sounds almost to me like a relationship that would happen potentially after. an abusive one, right? Where, where the woman is really wounded and has had specific experiences with an abusive person. So she's projecting that onto the new relationship
Speaker 5: because
Speaker 2: in an, [00:46:00] in the trauma bond relationship, in my opinion, the, the abuser would never go to therapy.
They would never care about how she actually felt. They would never try to say, what do you need? And then try to make it, make a conversation. That's
Speaker 3: interesting. Okay. That really is helpful to hear because when I listen to some of the content, right, it's almost like this guy is never going to change. And when I hear that, I'm like, Oh, like, where does this come from?
But if you say that this fellow is not in treatment, he's not invested in changing, then it becomes completely understandable. Yeah. That's a different story.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So that's, I guess the lens that I'm looking through when we talk about trauma bonding is a, a narcissistic person or otherwise abusive person with a personality disorder that prevents them from wanting to do the work to actually have engaging and meaningful relationships.
So they're, they have all these defense mechanisms [00:47:00] with the discarding and the devaluing and the hoovering, these are all tactics that they have adopted to try to have some sort of connection with people without actually having the intimate vulnerable relationship, which is different than people who are like the, like the man in your story, who seems to be very willing and wanting to, to see his side of the street and then take accountability for that.
Speaker 3: So just out of curiosity to digress just for a moment, I guess, in your, like, in your practice, people don't come who are still with the person and they want to work out the relationship. Do you see that?
Speaker 2: It's, it's so dependent on the person. And so some of them have left and they can look back and be like, Well, that was insane. I want to make sure I never go back to a relationship like that and they're ready to take accountability for the parts that they had in it. They're ready to see what it actually was and move forward.
[00:48:00] Some people come to me when they have some. some like tinge of knowing that it's not feeling right, but they can't seem to stop going back or they can't seem to actually leave.
Speaker 3: Right. I see. I see.
Speaker 2: So I have worked with women in the past who are, are choosing to stay in the relationship despite what information we reveal about the relationship.
Speaker 5: Um,
Speaker 2: and with those women, we're working on again, just building the self confidence and building their boundaries and building their boundaries. Their, ability to be able to speak their needs. despite the type of relationship that they're in. So the, my approach looks a little bit different with each, with women, each one of those.
Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah. That makes sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3: All right. So what do we have so far? We have a good description.
Speaker 2: Yes. We have a good description. We talked a little bit about love bombing and what that, what that feels like. Um, the devaluing Peace. Is, [00:49:00] is the kind of where we start to lose the love bomb, lose that, that hopeful place.
And then the discarding stage is another, another piece of this abusive cycle where, the devaluing gets escalated even further.
Speaker 3: Do you
Speaker 5: have
Speaker 2: thoughts about the discarding phase?
Speaker 3: The discarding phase is what I guess is does the relationship end at that point? Is that what happens?
Speaker 2: Sometimes, so sometimes the person, the, I'll, I'll categorize it in the abusive and victim again, or abuser and victim, sometimes the abuser will leave without a lot of explanation or sometimes any explanation and they'll just kind of ghost the person, ice them out, just, just disappear. Sometimes that looks like cheating.
So they're starting to find the next woman to bring it to the love bomb cycle as they're making you feel like you are worth nothing and [00:50:00] acting very strangely in the relationship, pulling away in the relationship. So it can be, they can still be in the relationship technically, but treating you as if you are not worthy of a second glance.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I understand. Yeah. Yeah, that, that, so what you and I have been over, I wanted to sort of surround it with a different perspective. But this one, no. I mean, this one, the way you describe it, sounds horrible. So I don't have any sort of different perspective if, if in fact I can imagine someone who's in this kind of relationship with someone who's actively cheating or discarding them like you said, which means they don't see any value in this person anymore.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Right? My only, I guess I'm just thinking out loud, it's the same thing. But in your situation, it's a little different, but for me, if someone came to me and they were still in this relationship with this kind of person and talking about being [00:51:00] discarded in this way, then naturally, as you know already, just following sort of the way that I think about this is I would try to understand, what's going on What compels you to stay in this kind of relationship?
What's, what's the gratifying piece? Um, what would it be like without him? What do you imagine? And then my guess is, I'm just making belief again, not in your case, but in patients that I may see is, Well, things could change. You see, that's the hope. It goes back to the original definition where we started.
So we're going full circle here.
Speaker 4: Yep.
Speaker 3: That's the hope that things can change. And once I hear that Bre, now you see, there's a lot of work that I could do in this area because the hope is a fantasy and now we're in a world of fantasy. And this leads to one other thing. I don't want to rush you along in your stages, but this is one other thing you spoke about that I heard that I was really impressed with.
Which I think you called a fog, you know, like they're in a fog. [00:52:00] And I, I felt like, Whoa, like we have a concept for that. We call it something else, you know? Um, but we described the same thing. It's kind of like the psychic retreat again, that I mentioned earlier, which is also known another word, I don't want to go too far into this, but it's called a pathological organization because it's made up of all those defenses that we mentioned earlier.
But in short, yes, they're in a fog. Right. It's called, um, you know, like you said, like their head in the sand. Oh, we call it by the way, in my field, like an erotic haze, like it's a haze. You called it a fog, but we call it an erotic because there's a certain level of excitement that goes along, even though they come in and they're complaining, they're still in the relationship or they get in another relationship.
And we call it erotic again because there's something about it that's so gratifying and so exciting and makes them feel so alive. And people who get in this situation typically are those who are, [00:53:00] perhaps more depressed or they have an inner feeling of emptiness or deadness that they cannot tolerate.
So to be in this kind of relationship is on the surface, very painful. But if we look just again, beyond the manifest content, Is very gratifying and fulfilling and holds them together. So they never have to face what's really going on inside of them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I, okay. I'm so excited about this topic. This is one of my favorite things to talk about in terms of all of this stuff, because I call it potential land, this, this place that we dissociate to that, that is the actualization of everything we want.
We want them to get back to how they were in the love bomb phase. We want them to be writing us the notes again. We want them to be going to therapy. We want to not be fighting all the time. We want to have this, this fantasy, this outcome that we were promised in the beginning. And what happens when we [00:54:00] even hope for something, right?
If I let myself start to dream about something and anticipate something, dopamine is released. So I don't even have to have the thing yet. The act of, of anticipating it will give me a dopamine release, which is the gratifying piece of this part of the stages, because if I can live in potential land, then I can live in all the hopes of everything coming true.
And I don't actually have to see that none of it's going to come true. And that, and then therefore have to make the decisions. from there about the relationship, which often means ending it, which means grief and loss and all of the feelings that come with grief and loss.
Speaker 3: Yes. So because they never learned, you see, they never learned to do that because again, in my, in my world, they retreated to a sadomasochistic or trauma bonded relationship from such an early age.
Like that example I gave with Mary, with a mother who was abusive and she kept going back in order to never have to face that loss. [00:55:00] But let me just, I'm so happy that you're excited about the fog, and I want to talk about it more, but I want to ask you, if somebody has their head in the sand.
How do you make an inroad? Like, how do you talk to somebody? It's like the person I mentioned earlier who got scammed and relatives were trying to warn him. They cannot hear anything. They're in this dissociated state, this psychic retreat, whatever we want to call it. It's like, what are the techniques or tools to reach somebody like this?
But that's a whole nother story and we're doing a part two, right? Yeah, I was going
Speaker 2: to say, I think that leads beautifully into telling the listeners that there's going to be a part two here, on Anthony's podcast called the Narcissism Decoder.
So that's going to be coming out on Wednesday. Um, the link is in the show notes for you to follow that podcast but in part two, we're going to talk a lot about how we, as the space holders for these, these people in these situations, help them to navigate out, out of the fog, out of the cycle, [00:56:00] out of the trauma bond experience, um, Yeah.
Anything else you would add to that about what we're going to talk about in part two?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would add this. I'm really exciting, excited to see you on the other end. So let's do it. Part two, we'll go into specific tools and techniques. Okay.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, by the way, again, Bre, for having me on your show.
Speaker 2: And to finish these episodes, I always pull an Oracle card to offer them, the listeners a message this week. So I'd like your participation. I'm just going to shuffle this deck of cards. We're both going to tune in to the message that wants to come through. And then you'll help me choose. The card and I'll read the message from the book.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: Okay. So go ahead and close your eyes for me.
We're just going to take a second, ask what is the message that wants to come through for the anybody listening today? And then whenever you feel like the shuffle's complete, you let me know when to stop.
Speaker 3: Yep, go for
Speaker 2: it. Okay, alright. [00:57:00] So we got effervescent. And you can look at the screen here.
This is, if you're watching the video, it's a card that has a bunch of bubbles on it. So let me find what effervescent is in the book, and I'll read this here. Effervescent is sending you a message of permission to lighten up. Now is the time for effervescence. Be light, bubbly, and unpredictable. Pop your cork.
Spray your message. Spit into the wind. Free yourself from the canister. Effervescent is calling you to raise up parts of yourself that are joyful, quirky, transient, delightful, and refreshing. If you have found yourself flat, it is time to shake it up. So I encourage listeners to see how that resonates for them.
And we're just where they are in their life and in their journey. And we'll see you in part two. I'm going to link everything in the show notes. So you guys know exactly where to go. And thank you again, Anthony, for your time.
Speaker 3: Okay. Bye for now.
I hope this episode was [00:58:00] as mind expansive for you as it was for me to record with Dr. Anthony Mandela. We really, again, wanted to come from this viewpoint of bringing different perspectives to help surround the topic of trauma bonding and to give you something a little bit different than what you might see on social media. So take the information today, let it soak in, let it percolate, let it resonate. And let it see if it can help you better understand where trauma bonding comes from. Why it happens, why we stay and why it perpetuates.
A reminder for some of the topics that we covered today, we talked about how codependency and love bombing are related.
We talked extensively about how we use trauma bonded relationships to actually help us avoid feeling deeper grief from our childhood. And why the rollercoaster of trauma bonded relationships feel safe. As always such a pleasure to be here with you all is talking about [00:59:00] topics that I know can feel challenging to explore.
And I just want to say thank you for being open to. Uh, hearing about these concepts and if you're in a situation like this, No, that you can always reach out to me. I've several different links in the show notes of ways to get in touch resources that might be helpful to you at the end of the day. This podcast is for you and you are not alone. Until next time.
