Pełna transkrypcja odcinka ENCORE: Healing Mould Biotoxin Illness with Amie Skilton

are pretty limited and in fact, many of the strategies that we would use to move someone through the ladder of healing from CERS can have a counterproductive effect if someone is still being exposed. 00:03:19.806 --> 00:03:40.889 So, even though it's a very complex, multi system, acute, chronically acute condition, it's the hardest part is actually getting away from inflammatory triggers and that's really due to the prevalence of water damage buildings in the western world. 00:03:40.889 --> 00:03:43.564 You know, in the US it's around 50%. 00:03:43.564 --> 00:03:47.834 I am strongly suspecting that's the case in Australia. 00:03:47.834 --> 00:04:02.890 I can tell you from house hunting in Sydney on one occasion that 93.5% of properties I examined for my own you know, personal potential residency were visibly water damaged and 80% of the time mold is not visible. 00:04:02.890 --> 00:04:16.865 So the hardest part is actually getting someone into an environment where they can heal, particularly if it's their workplace or it's their workplace and their home, because you're sort of getting hit from both sides in that regard. 00:04:16.865 --> 00:04:26.449 So the priority is always getting into a clean and healthy environment, which doesn't necessarily mean mold free. 00:04:26.449 --> 00:04:37.564 You know there's an argument that mold is everywhere, and yes it is, but it's a toxicogenic mold and a water damage building we're trying to avoid and then from there people can actually move through the protocol for healing. 00:04:37.684 --> 00:04:42.137 So a lot of people jump to oh, what can I take? 00:04:42.137 --> 00:04:43.180 You know, what can I do? 00:04:43.180 --> 00:04:44.483 What diet should I follow? 00:04:44.483 --> 00:04:56.427 But I can tell you from personal experience and professional, the results are incredibly limited whilst you're still being exposed, in fact almost imperceptible in many patients. 00:04:56.968 --> 00:05:19.314 The other priority, which is maybe not so much about treatment is, but really accurate diagnosis, is choosing the right biomarkers to test and doing them in the right order in order to arrive at a diagnosis so that you can confidently move forward with treatment but without financially devastating someone. 00:05:19.494 --> 00:05:25.028 I did all of the blood biomarkers myself, bar MMP 9, and it was $2000. 00:05:25.028 --> 00:05:56.379 So you know, for some people $2000 might be better spent on a tent and, you know, getting out into nature and away from the mold and actually just see and maybe some basic binders and detoxifying, you know, agents just to see if there's an improvement, rather than wasting we're not wasting all that money, but spending all that money to arrive at a diagnosis and then not having funds left to actually get away from the mold or, you know, purchase some of those things that are actually really helpful. 00:05:56.379 --> 00:06:17.927 So it's a as a clinician you know for and clinicians that are listening we're always weighing up that, I guess the return on investment for clients, but certainly for anyone listening to this who suspects they might be dealing with mold illness, that's something you want to really work with your practitioner on. 00:06:17.927 --> 00:06:28.903 Also, just to you know, be selective so that you can get enough information to move forward, but without overdoing it where you could be spending your money elsewhere. 00:06:29.125 --> 00:06:37.346 So that's a huge issue, and particularly when we've got such a dichotomous country in Australia. 00:06:37.346 --> 00:06:39.232 You know the fire and the flood. 00:06:39.232 --> 00:06:45.221 Wow, not four years ago, basically, the eastern seaboard was on fire. 00:06:45.221 --> 00:06:48.665 Now the eastern seaboard is in flood. 00:06:48.665 --> 00:06:57.740 And when we're talking about mold damage, there's a real conundrum about, well, where do you go to to escape it? 00:06:57.740 --> 00:06:59.488 Because the next place is moldy. 00:06:59.488 --> 00:07:01.413 You spoke just about buying a tent. 00:07:01.413 --> 00:07:03.697 Tents get moldy when they're packed up. 00:07:03.697 --> 00:07:04.505 La, la, la la. 00:07:04.505 --> 00:07:14.120 So you get onto this treadmill, or, yeah, treadmill of how do you escape the moldy environment? 00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:22.872 Should we instead be looking at mitigating, as you said, toxogenic mold or avoiding toxogenic mold? 00:07:23.944 --> 00:07:24.867 That's a yeah. 00:07:24.867 --> 00:07:46.894 That is definitely something that must be considered really carefully and it depends on you know where the moisture's come from, what toxogenic molds are present in the home, whether someone has the HLA predisposition, genetically speaking, or not, and also just how bad how bad the home is in general. 00:07:46.894 --> 00:08:21.759 So in some cases and also that's made more complicated by if you're a tenant renting a property versus someone who owns a property so if you own it and you have the money, you can get a medical grade remediation done, but that is a huge undertaking and you, you know you also have to find somewhere else to stay while that happens and sadly, it's actually not a guarantee that your home will be tolerable once it's done. 00:08:21.759 --> 00:08:36.599 Sometimes it is, and that's great, but it involves often gutting a home, sometimes even replacing structural elements if they're made from timber and literally starting over again, like burning all of your stuff and then buying again. 00:08:36.599 --> 00:09:03.457 Now, if you've been exposed to toxicants for too long and that includes, you know, microbial toxins in a water damage building you can then develop secondary, multiple chemical sensitivity and then you have to be mindful of what paints you're putting in, what building materials you're using, the offgassing of new furnishings the whole thing can be, even if financially it's a doable project, it can be really tricky.

00:09:03.457 --> 00:09:14.999 But it is the devil, you know, and I think oftentimes it's a good option to explore, especially when you can, you know, upgrade the health of your home by doing so. 00:09:16.365 --> 00:09:39.456 But if you're a tenant, unfortunately, although we have actually we've just officially adopted the ANSI double ICRC standards, as far as you know, mold remediation goes, but they were the standards that we referred to, without any of our own, but unfortunately it's not a legally enforceable standard. 00:09:39.456 --> 00:09:56.392 And so what I see and this is one of the areas I work most in is with people who are renting a property, there isn't any way to force the landlord to remediate to the grade that you might need for your health, in fact, remediate almost at all. 00:09:56.392 --> 00:10:06.894 Victoria have recently, in recent years, improved their tenancy standards and there are now everything's been upgraded a little bit. 00:10:06.894 --> 00:10:15.759 But what I'm finding is commonly the best you can hope for is breaking the lease with no penalty, maybe getting some compensation and then moving on. 00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:53.491 But if you don't know what to look for in a new property, some people end up, more often than not, out of the frying pan, into the fire, into another water damage building, and so it's actually it's the housing crisis people aren't aware of, and certainly in certain regions, like where I am, in the Northern Rivers, where there's elevated humidity almost year round, most properties are impacted to some degree or another just because of the microclimate, and that's not taking into account any potential flooding, maybe roof leaks that have happened, burst pipes, degraded waterproof membranes. 00:10:53.491 --> 00:11:23.134 So you know there is a whole group of people who are living in their cars or living out of tents, who are doing so because, you know, they've either been financially ruined from this experience or they just cannot find anywhere to stay that doesn't make them sick, and indeed even the basics of life, like the shopping center in my local area, multiple roof leaks and, ironically, the health shop is the worst affected. 00:11:23.134 --> 00:11:29.955 I can't stay, I can't actually browse in the health shop without getting sick, and that was before it got flooded earlier this year. 00:11:29.955 --> 00:11:43.995 And so, you know, even picking up medications or going into a health shop or getting food, like you know, thankfully to COVID click, you know, and delivery to the boot is a thing now, but life can become extremely difficult. 00:11:43.995 --> 00:11:53.179 You know, people buying clothes or maybe a mattress that's been stored in a warehouse that's, you know, been leaking and it's moldy. 00:11:53.384 --> 00:12:03.769 You know I've had one client the most unwell human I've ever supported through this and it was complicated by Lyme also. 00:12:03.769 --> 00:12:11.951 But she was actually in a coma for years and bedridden for almost a decade and you know we had to coordinate a trip to. 00:12:11.951 --> 00:12:15.376 You know even the chemical sensitivity in the state she lived in. 00:12:15.376 --> 00:12:33.870 She had to leave and we coordinated a trip to Tasmania but trying to find an Airbnb that wasn't water damaged, she had to send through, you know, sleeping bags and clothes to off gas for a month prior to a friend's place, which also wasn't the best, and you know this is how sick. 00:12:33.870 --> 00:12:35.727 This is an extreme example. 00:12:35.727 --> 00:12:47.076 But she was so unwell that the smell of coffee would trigger seizures and of course she was flying from WA where there were two rounds of you know refreshments on the plane. 00:12:47.076 --> 00:12:50.672 So we had to, you know, work out separate oxygen. 00:12:50.672 --> 00:12:53.388 You know supply and anyway it was just. 00:12:53.889 --> 00:13:10.796 It can become a nightmare, and so one of the hardest things that I see is people who are reluctant and I get it because I have been there but reluctant to take action when they first become aware of it, and I can give you so many examples where people have been unwell. 00:13:10.796 --> 00:13:13.251 Then I've said I've identified there's a mold problem. 00:13:13.251 --> 00:13:28.097 But of course, with the rental crisis, we're currently in that's sort of like oh, it's not a good time to move, there's nothing out there, and then a year later they're even sicker and can't even tolerate you know a manmade building at all anymore. 00:13:28.097 --> 00:13:40.120 So it's a very distressing thing to navigate on top of feeling like death and like nothing's functioning properly neurologically or physically. 00:13:40.120 --> 00:14:04.727 So I certainly hope our chat today I don't mean to scare anyone, but knowing the you know the signs, the symptoms, the early warning signs, maybe what to test for can, even though it can feel very overwhelming, can honestly save you so much time and life force and stress in the long run if you can just you know start taking small steps and you know. 00:14:05.408 --> 00:14:09.655 That's also why I created not to plug my course, but just for one second. 00:14:09.655 --> 00:14:34.591 I created a course to teach people how to prevent mold at home, because so much of the mold that I see is because people don't know how to manage moisture in the home or don't know what the right action to take is after a leak or a flood, and so, inadvertently, we are making our homes sick by accident because we don't know better, and that is just such a shame. 00:14:34.591 --> 00:14:37.451 And everyone's just hopping from one water damage building to another. 00:14:37.451 --> 00:14:42.191 You know certainly getting to that point, so it's tricky, andrew. 00:14:44.985 --> 00:14:52.028 And, of course, you mentioned binders before, and this is where I, you know I get confused. 00:14:52.028 --> 00:15:08.153 Or is

there overlap, you know, with SIBO and gastrointestinal disorders where, if you're not going to spend thousands on testing, where would you start with therapy? 00:15:08.153 --> 00:15:14.317 Would you start with herbs and nutrients that build up emotional resistance? 00:15:14.317 --> 00:15:16.493 Would you look at the immune system? 00:15:16.493 --> 00:15:19.254 Would you look at the gastrointestinal system? 00:15:19.254 --> 00:15:23.296 Because 60 to 70 percent of your immune system resides there. 00:15:23.296 --> 00:15:27.033 Where do you poke the bear first? 00:15:29.485 --> 00:15:54.741 So part of what determines the way forward is whether someone has the genetic tendency or not, and so you know I'll usually check for the HLA status, do a VCS test, which is free, and then allow what their symptomatology is telling you about where the inflammation is affecting them to guide treatment. 00:15:54.741 --> 00:16:01.179 But certainly, mycotoxins damage the gastrointestinal lining and your microbiome. 00:16:01.179 --> 00:16:08.561 So some sort of gut support, even something as simple as you know, colostrum and probiotics would be advisable. 00:16:08.561 --> 00:16:22.967 But the number one thing I would say is gentle binders and liposomal glutathione, and those things can be implemented even if someone is still being exposed. 00:16:22.967 --> 00:16:45.721 So with binders, I usually like to do binders for at least a couple of days, maybe up to a week, before introducing liposomal glutathione, because binders act like a sponge in the gut collecting whatever's coming through from the vial, and so you're just really just taking the edge off, just the top off the overall toxin load. 00:16:45.721 --> 00:17:06.845 Now the thing with someone who's got the genetic, I guess predisposition whilst mycotoxins are toxic to everyone, you see a much quicker and much stronger response and a much slower recovery time in those individuals, which you know means the protocol really has to be a lot more robust to get them a timely recovery. 00:17:06.845 --> 00:17:16.189 But certainly, regardless of all of that, I would say binders, and different binders have a different affinity for different mycotoxins. 00:17:17.734 --> 00:17:35.528 There is an argument for doing a mycotoxin test, but I feel like in the scheme of things, it's you're throwing money away If you can just use a combination of natural binders, things like activated charcoal, pharmaceutical grade bentonite, clay, micronized zeolites. 00:17:35.528 --> 00:17:43.702 There are other things that you can use as well that could be combined amongst those things, but they would be the heavy hitters, if you like. 00:17:43.702 --> 00:17:52.751 Start low and build up and that will just start to sort of pull toxins out rather than allowing that enterohepatic recirculation to. 00:17:52.751 --> 00:17:57.285 You know, just, I guess, slow down the elimination. 00:17:57.285 --> 00:18:10.808 And as long as there's no reaction to that and they're having regular bowel motions which can be tricky because IBS is a really common outcome of mold and more water damage, building exposure, you might want to address that. 00:18:10.808 --> 00:18:14.503 If it does start to block them up or they're having trouble, you know, drinking enough water. 00:18:14.503 --> 00:18:20.006 Also, adding electrolytes to water because of the issues with dehydration would be important. 00:18:20.006 --> 00:18:37.760 And if they're still, if they're having a regular bowel motion, they're not having symptoms of, you know, detox pathway, overwhelm, like headaches, nausea, skin breakouts, body odor, things like that, then I would introduce liposomal glutathione and again started a low dose and then build up. 00:18:37.760 --> 00:18:54.594 And the reason I love that is glutathione works on three different the three phases of detoxification and also supports the kidneys, which also take a massive hit with mycotoxins, supporting phase one, two and three, which you know. 00:18:54.594 --> 00:18:58.422 We've got phase one active in the lungs and in the skin too. 00:18:58.422 --> 00:19:08.172 And of course, topical contact and inhalation is a major root of exposure, more so than oral when it comes to a water damage building. 00:19:08.172 --> 00:19:13.989 So that's sort of ground, one that's like step one on a treatment protocol. 00:19:14.450 --> 00:19:19.827 And in addition to that, if they're having symptoms that you can also support them with. 00:19:19.827 --> 00:19:21.513 There are some things you can include. 00:19:21.513 --> 00:19:29.835 So, for example, mold illness or CERS is not a mold allergy, but often they are occurring concurrently. 00:19:29.835 --> 00:19:35.978 Someone might have respiratory symptoms cough, sneezing, itchy throat, runny eyes, itchy nose, things like that. 00:19:35.978 --> 00:19:43.722 So you could use, you know, vitamin C, quesiton, things that stabilize mast cells and help with histamine production. 00:19:43.722 --> 00:19:49.517 I would absolutely include a potent clean fish oil as well. 00:19:49.517 --> 00:19:57.018 It is something that's used in the later stages of this first protocol to reduce specific inflammatory markers. 00:19:57.018 --> 00:20:12.294 However, there's no contraindication to starting it up front, so you could absolutely pop that in there too to support, you know, neurological health and really, I guess, try and mitigate some of those inflammatory mediators. 00:20:12.443 --> 00:20:38.457 But you have to actually be very careful not to use strong antioxidant herbs in those beginning stages, because the pathway by which antioxidants stimulate what we know or refer to as antioxidants stimulate pathways that actually trigger an antioxidant response from the cells and in essence they're actually just very mild free radicals. 00:20:38.708 --> 00:20:49.131 And so when that pathway is working, they have a net antioxidant, a significant net antioxidant effect on our body

and a very beneficial. 00:20:49.131 --> 00:20:54.683 But the pathway that gets blocked by mycotoxins is NRF2. 00:20:54.683 --> 00:21:16.804 And so what we would normally think is, you know, as you and I as a clinician, nrf2, you know stimulating herbs as being good, very dangerous for someone who is currently impacted by mycotoxins, which is again why those things come later on down the track when you're, you know, being treated for mold or if you're treating someone for mold. 00:21:16.804 --> 00:21:25.933 So it's a real dance and you know for some symptoms people might have would be more neurological. 00:21:25.933 --> 00:21:37.964 So you could certainly include, you know, herbs that improve circulation to the brain and that would be helpful if someone's got nerve pain or neuro seizures. 00:21:37.964 --> 00:21:43.601 You could include nutrients that are supportive for, you know, nervous tissue health. 00:21:43.601 --> 00:21:52.286 But there's not a lot else you can do apart from gentle symptomatic support until someone's out of out of the situation. 00:21:54.654 --> 00:22:06.663 If you were going to talk about the most common symptoms versus the least common symptoms, what do you find patients present with? 00:22:06.663 --> 00:22:13.160 Mostly we're talking like brain fog, fatigue, or I mean you mentioned pain there as well. 00:22:13.160 --> 00:22:18.249 And it smacks as like a chronic fatigue syndrome type picture. 00:22:19.855 --> 00:22:26.636 Well, there is a school of thought that chronic fatigue syndrome is actually entirely caused by mold. 00:22:26.636 --> 00:22:46.523 Now, when you look at the physiology of chronic fatigue syndrome, we see, you know, inflammation, damaging mitochondrial function and therefore ATP production, isn't what it could or should be, and arguably, you know, there are other things that we could be exposed to that would cause that kind of high grade inflammation. 00:22:46.523 --> 00:22:53.281 So I wouldn't be willing to go so far as to say all chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia is related to mold. 00:22:53.281 --> 00:23:11.137 But what I would say is, if you have those conditions or you're a clinician who's identifying those things, you should be aware that in a study that looked at the connection there, in 90% of cases there was a current or past exposure to water damage. 00:23:11.137 --> 00:23:24.096 Building Fatigue was present in 90% of patients with water damaged building or sick building syndrome, and in urine samples, 93% of them were positive for at least one mycotoxin. 00:23:24.096 --> 00:23:32.240 So when you're looking for the root cause of something, this would be the primary agent for chronic fatigue syndrome. 00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:34.664 Same goes with fibromyalgia. 00:23:34.664 --> 00:23:42.771 I had both of these things when I was in the middle of my mold illness experience and we know that. 00:23:42.771 --> 00:24:02.205 You know, 75% of fibromyalgia patients report being fatigued, and it's, of course, logical to think being in pain, chronic pain, is tiring yes, it is, but it can also be, and likely will be, a result of mitochondrial failure or difficulties producing enough energy. 00:24:02.205 --> 00:24:18.373 We also know that there are chemokines that are triggered and found high in the cerebrospinal fluid that are also triggered by mold and driven by the interleukin that actually is triggered by mold exposure too. 00:24:18.373 --> 00:24:26.113 And it may be in these patients where we see, you know, higher incidence of autoimmune disease with water damage, building exposure too. 00:24:26.113 --> 00:24:26.866 So you've got. 00:24:26.866 --> 00:24:33.569 I guess there's kind of three main categories, if you like, in fact I'll send you a link. 00:24:33.625 --> 00:24:39.491 I've written an e-book on like the 14 sort of major ways mold people can make people sick. 00:24:39.491 --> 00:24:42.854 But chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia are big ones. 00:24:42.854 --> 00:24:56.328 Non-celiac gluten sensitivity is another red flag for me as a clinician, so someone who's sensitive to gluten but isn't a celiac sufferer or isn't yet a celiac sufferer, so that kind of the big ones. 00:24:56.328 --> 00:25:02.431 Also, gut issues as I said, mycotoxins damage the microbiome, they damage the microvillage. 00:25:02.431 --> 00:25:13.171 So escalating food allergies and intolerances, pain and all of those IBS symptoms are commonly induced by a water damage building. 00:25:14.704 --> 00:25:27.315 Some other things we see are those like skin rashes Now it can be eczema, of course, and children living in homes with water damage are 15 times more likely to have moderate to severe eczema. 00:25:27.315 --> 00:25:33.653 We also know that eczema severity is directly correlated to the extent of water damage in a home. 00:25:33.653 --> 00:25:42.053 I actually never had eczema as a child, but developed eczema while I was in a water damage building, which has now resolved on its own. 00:25:42.053 --> 00:25:55.035 But also fungal skin issues, other weird rashes, dry skin, itchy things, but also respiratory issues, including asthma. 00:25:55.035 --> 00:26:07.853 So we know that mildew or a musty odor in a home is associated with both childhood and adult asthma, and up to 60% of atopic individuals are actually allergic to fungi anyway. 00:26:07.853 --> 00:26:20.190 And there's even evidence that shows an elevated ERME test, which is a way of assessing how moldy a home is in infancy, as a predictor of asthma in children at seven years old. 00:26:20.190 --> 00:26:28.183 So the literature hasn't gone so far as to say mold causes asthma. 00:26:28.183 --> 00:26:37.691 It currently there's a few papers that say that it mostly says exacerbates or makes it worse or increases the risk for it. 00:26:37.691 --> 00:26:53.314 But I also had my one and only asthma attack as a result of mold and I'm not an asthmatic, so certainly for me it caused an asthma attack and

thankfully that hasn't hung around. 00:26:53.314 --> 00:27:03.593 But because a sick building or a water damage building is a repository for all kinds of microbes and a shifting microbiome and toxins. 00:27:04.244 --> 00:27:11.412 One of the other things that we see that is also probably one of the most common red flags is just chronic cold and flu symptoms. 00:27:11.412 --> 00:27:21.935 So runny nose, getting colds multiple times a year, having things escalate from a cold to pneumonia frequently. 00:27:21.935 --> 00:27:41.891 Certainly for me, when I was traveling a lot for work, I would always wake up with a sore throat and I would always travel with natural lozenges and a herbal throat spray, because as a presenter I can't afford to lose my voice and I always blamed it on the plane, dry air or people's germs on the plane. 00:27:41.891 --> 00:27:51.711 And then when I obviously went through this experience and learned how to identify mold, it was actually only about five or six places throughout Australia I could stay at and not get sick. 00:27:51.711 --> 00:27:55.730 But whenever I stayed at those, I never got a sore throat again. 00:27:55.865 --> 00:28:04.094 So it wasn't the plane at all, it was moldy hotels, the air conditioning, the ventilation is poor, humidity is high. 00:28:04.094 --> 00:28:08.790 It was actually the accommodation that was responsible for that and not the plane at all. 00:28:08.790 --> 00:28:12.474 So chronically chronic respiratory stuff is a big one. 00:28:12.474 --> 00:28:22.994 And then of course, you've got CERS, which is primarily limited to about 25% of the population, but that's just a whole other weird barrel of symptoms. 00:28:22.994 --> 00:28:32.164 So you can have all of these things and have CERS as well, which is just horrific, but for, let's say, 75% of the population. 00:28:32.164 --> 00:28:42.015 These are the things that you will likely notice if you are either working in a water damaged office or living in a water damaged home. 00:28:44.130 --> 00:28:45.864 Okay, I've just got to ask a question there. 00:28:45.864 --> 00:28:47.703 You said 25% of the population. 00:28:47.703 --> 00:28:54.155 That's not the total population, that's the population that present with biotoxin illness. 00:28:54.155 --> 00:28:54.636 Is that right? 00:28:55.751 --> 00:29:07.184 Yeah, so at the moment, with the data that we have, it appears 25% of the human population have haplotypes that make them vulnerable, particularly vulnerable, to this. 00:29:07.184 --> 00:29:16.017 So one in four people would become much sicker, much quicker in a water damaged building than the other three. 00:29:16.017 --> 00:29:19.103 And basically what's happening there? 00:29:19.103 --> 00:29:30.042 For anyone who's curious about how this works is we have two elements to our immune system the innate immune system and the adaptive immune system. 00:29:30.042 --> 00:29:39.273 And the innate immune system are the first responders and I'm obviously putting this very simply, so if you're an immunologist, don't come at me, I'm explaining it for everybody. 00:29:39.305 --> 00:29:42.477 But the innate immune system are the first responders. 00:29:42.477 --> 00:29:51.505 They show up all guns blazing and cause a lot of damage, inflammatory damage, Although the inflammatory mediators are designed to call in the adaptive immune system. 00:29:51.505 --> 00:30:08.900 So they sort of get on the scene, raise the alarm, shoot first, ask questions later kind of thing, and then, when the adaptive immune system crew turn up, the inflammation gets dialed down and a more nuanced and specific approach to the pathogen or the injuries. 00:30:08.900 --> 00:30:42.085 Then take him and the way it works with toxin exposure, whether that's manmade toxicants or microbe made, in this case in someone whose genetics are fine, let's call them fine, they have a response, but the innate immune system responds for a finite period of time, and when the adaptive immune system comes in, they tag the biotoxins for elimination and then the other aspects of the adaptive immune system clear it and it's moved out of the body. 00:30:43.656 --> 00:31:14.285 Now, in one in four people, the haplotype is such that the adaptive immune system is blind to the toxins, and so you've got one half of the immune system setting everything on fire, going help, help, we've got a problem, and the other half going eh well, can't really see, we don't see what the problem is here, and so nothing gets done and the toxins persistently create an inflammatory response and acute inflammatory response that then becomes chronically activated. 00:31:14.285 --> 00:31:17.096 And so the challenges. 00:31:17.096 --> 00:31:31.457 Obviously these are toxic to everybody, but the challenges for those of us with you know mold susceptible genes is we need a lot more help to move the biotoxins out and dial the inflammation back down. 00:31:34.013 --> 00:31:34.153 Okay. 00:31:34.153 --> 00:31:46.297 So from what you're talking about and the commonalities of symptom presentation with so many other conditions, as I've said before, sibo, you've mentioned autoimmune conditions. 00:31:46.297 --> 00:31:48.938 We're talking about quite common haplotypes here. 00:31:48.938 --> 00:32:00.785 We're mentioning things like asthma, blah, blah, blah Is mold biotoxin illness really a sort of how do I word this? 00:32:00.785 --> 00:32:12.766 A presentation of erosion of resilience, so that you've got these other things and they're normally handled, or normally a nuisance? 00:32:12.766 --> 00:32:16.621 Let's say that's a really glib comment. 00:32:16.621 --> 00:32:29.678 But and then you've got a water damage building where water and it's not just initial water damage or water that comes and goes, it's water that sits and creates an issue correct. 00:32:30.289 --> 00:32:36.261 And then this sort of chronic mold issue occurs. 00:32:36.261 --> 00:32:39.057 That sets people over the

precipice. 00:32:39.057 --> 00:32:42.838 Is that really what happens with mold illness? 00:32:42.838 --> 00:32:44.615 So people with asthma, for instance? 00:32:44.615 --> 00:32:45.719 Here's an example. 00:32:45.719 --> 00:32:48.519 So I've just come back from holidays. 00:32:48.519 --> 00:32:54.834 At one stage we stayed in a camping ground Caravan Park but we stayed in a cabin. 00:32:54.834 --> 00:32:56.634 Great, no worries. 00:32:56.634 --> 00:33:09.193 But when we turned on the air cons, the air cons had not been maintained and I acutely smelled this mold coming out and that night, like I had to take my asthma puffer a couple of times. 00:33:09.193 --> 00:33:16.538 Now I don't have I hope I don't think I don't have mold biotoxin illness. 00:33:16.538 --> 00:33:23.154 I have asthma and it was inflamed by that, whereas other people they just they go over the precipice. 00:33:23.154 --> 00:33:26.759 Is this really what happens with biotoxin illness? 00:33:28.032 --> 00:33:44.739 Yeah, so what you're experiencing with the asthma symptoms is just the natural immune response to inhaling particles that shouldn't be in your lungs, and so for anyone who maybe doesn't have asthma, maybe it would trigger a cough. 00:33:44.739 --> 00:33:53.723 I was in a bar on Saturday night dark underground thing and just immediately started coughing. 00:33:53.723 --> 00:33:55.785 No asthma for me, but that was just. 00:33:55.785 --> 00:34:15.144 It's an airborne irritant, but that is the I guess, an allergy reaction, whereas with mold illness it's a combination of your being poisoned by the environment and your immune system is burning you down to the ground trying to deal with it. 00:34:15.144 --> 00:34:23.289 So I suppose I wouldn't term it an erosion of resilience, because that suggests you could build up resilience to it. 00:34:23.289 --> 00:34:29.277 And if you have the haplotype that I do, or one of the mold haplotypes, that's just. 00:34:29.277 --> 00:34:30.896 It's just not a thing you can't. 00:34:30.896 --> 00:34:34.309 If you have a blind spot there, that will always remain. 00:34:34.309 --> 00:34:52.081 Now, one of the ways that we're described is the canaries and the coal mine, and really our bodies are an early warning system for others that the environment is toxic, and I've come to see it as a blessing. 00:34:52.081 --> 00:34:57.309 But I also have had the means and the resources to heal and get into a healthy home. 00:34:57.309 --> 00:34:58.755 So when you're in the middle of it? 00:34:58.755 --> 00:34:59.797 It sure isn't. 00:34:59.797 --> 00:35:18.179 But what that means is mycotoxins damage the brain, they damage the kidneys, they damage the liver, they damage your gut and for someone like me it damages so much more violently that I become aware the environment is bad. 00:35:18.179 --> 00:35:31.228 But for someone who doesn't have those genes they might arguably live in a water damage building for a lot longer and then be diagnosed with kidney cancer or some sort of gastrointestinal cancer. 00:35:31.228 --> 00:35:43.309 Some mycotoxins cause skin cancer and because they're not feeling sick in the environment, they just put up with it, put up with the mold or maybe put up with the smell if there is a smell or put up, you know, paint over it. 00:35:43.309 --> 00:35:47.289 But the thing is mycotoxins are poisonous to everybody. 00:35:47.289 --> 00:35:50.342 It's just in a subset of us. 00:35:50.342 --> 00:35:52.309 Our bodies respond really badly. 00:35:52.652 --> 00:35:56.309 So, yes, you can support your organs, glands, tissues. 00:35:56.309 --> 00:35:58.309 Yes, you can build resilience. 00:35:58.309 --> 00:36:09.041 One of the big things that you know you can obviously do is remove all other source of toxicants in your life and of course, everyone's on their own journey with that. 00:36:09.041 --> 00:36:32.269 But I can tell you, as someone who ate 100% organic, didn't use any synthetic personal care products, filtered her water, you know, didn't live on a main road Like you, couldn't have done anything further for my physiological resilience at the time that I was exposed and I went down like a ton of bricks. 00:36:33.353 --> 00:36:34.657 So is it helpful? 00:36:34.657 --> 00:36:39.121 I'm sure Is it, what allowed me to recover, maybe a lot quicker than other people. 00:36:39.121 --> 00:36:42.360 I believe it did help and thank God. 00:36:42.360 --> 00:36:49.876 Thank God for that, and maybe that's also why I'm not permanently damaged like some people are, but it isn't. 00:36:49.876 --> 00:36:59.722 There isn't any vitamin, herb, food, lifestyle thing that, if you have the haplotype, will prevent you from becoming sick from it or that will help you. 00:36:59.722 --> 00:37:03.599 You know out supplement or out lifestyle, a toxic environment. 00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:05.467 Sad, it's sad, but true. 00:37:05.467 --> 00:37:06.269 Trust me, I tried. 00:37:06.269 --> 00:37:17.521 I took so many supplements and, yes, they helped, they kept my head above water, but they really only drove me back towards good health once I was in a healthy home. 00:37:19.188 --> 00:37:28.309 Yeah, look, I've got to say from being very confused to, I have to say, skeptical, and then slowly realizing the issue. 00:37:28.309 --> 00:37:34.269 When I interviewed and forgive me, I can't remember her first name, her last name was Hudgens. 00:37:34.269 --> 00:37:39.996 I'm coming up with Victoria Hudgens, natalia, natalia Hudgens. 00:37:39.996 --> 00:38:11.023 When you see that photographic evidence she was, her story was presented on television and when you see that photographic evidence that is not related to anorexia nervosa or norbolemia, nor eating disorders, when you see that I mean catastrophic erosion of vitality, it really opens your eyes to there must be something else happening. 00:38:11.023 --> 00:38:19.516 I guess the issue, the complexity is and this is where you require an expert like yourself is what is

that erosion due to? 00:38:19.516 --> 00:38:28.516 You need somebody, like a detective, to unravel all of the intertwined cords and say, okay, we're getting down to. 00:38:28.516 --> 00:38:33.514 This is possibly the reason I guess the controversy arises with. 00:38:33.514 --> 00:38:37.635 Well, how do you identify it as opposed to something else? 00:38:38.490 --> 00:38:40.757 And again, it's just where it requires the expert. 00:38:41.389 --> 00:38:43.456 So can I ask? 00:38:43.456 --> 00:38:47.289 As I've said at the beginning, this is such a complex issue. 00:38:47.289 --> 00:38:52.882 It requires a dedicated course, not a webinar, not a weekend. 00:38:52.882 --> 00:39:00.534 This is something quite in depth, but can you take us through just a couple of quick things before we have to leave? 00:39:00.534 --> 00:39:03.447 Of course, what not to do? 00:39:03.447 --> 00:39:11.275 What not to do so when you're cleaning up mould, because we've experienced that recently all of us in Australia. 00:39:12.085 --> 00:39:14.690 Yes, yep, so all right. 00:39:14.690 --> 00:39:22.494 So here's a few guidelines on do's and don'ts, and maybe I'll start with just what the treatment protocol looks like. 00:39:22.494 --> 00:39:25.206 So you know, you've got an idea of what to expect. 00:39:25.206 --> 00:39:31.958 One of the things that you know we usually would recommend is a shift in diet. 00:39:31.958 --> 00:39:51.695 Now, the haplotype challenges lie within the celiac gene, so we call the celiac gene the mould gene and because of the relationship there with gluten being so inflammatory, almost without exception we would say go strictly gluten free. 00:39:51.695 --> 00:39:56.266 And interestingly, most people feel better for that. 00:39:56.266 --> 00:40:12.114 And also, I mean, I'm gluten free now also, but I've had periods being gluten free and periods of eating it and it's I can notice I tolerate it more when I'm in a good environment and I start to react more badly when I'm in a problematic environment. 00:40:12.114 --> 00:40:14.679 So definitely go gluten free. 00:40:14.679 --> 00:40:31.391 We also like to recommend a low histamine diet as well, because typically, you know, histamine is one of those inflammatory mediators that's released and triggered by water damage building naturally, because the innate immune system uses it to call in the adaptive. 00:40:31.391 --> 00:40:37.610 And also a low amylose diet, and that actually comes from Richie Shoemaker. 00:40:37.610 --> 00:40:49.726 Amylose is a type of carbohydrate chain that actually triggers two inflammatory markers or contributes to them with, you know, with mold illness. 00:40:49.726 --> 00:41:09.460 So cleaning up the diet in that respect and avoiding things that we know are commonly moldy or might harbor mold coffee, sadly, is one of those Using binders and liposomal glutathione, of course, is a really great start and anything to stabilize histamine. 00:41:09.460 --> 00:41:14.077 We also like to sort of check for antibodies and things at this stage. 00:41:14.077 --> 00:41:28.001 Again, because of that chronic activation of the innate immune system, autoimmune markers, if not conditions, are very common in those that are exposed to water damage building Even things like milk thistle can be protective. 00:41:28.141 --> 00:41:31.733 B vitamins can be really helpful for phase one and phase two. 00:41:31.733 --> 00:41:36.148 So these would be really kind of simple, gentle things to include. 00:41:36.148 --> 00:41:41.585 So good quality activated B vitamin and some glutathione and binders. 00:41:41.585 --> 00:41:55.239 Even an acetyl cysteine that's a really popular one, particularly some people suit that better than using glutathione, but it helps to break up mucus and and support the body in other ways. 00:41:55.239 --> 00:42:01.384 And even nasal sprays, whether that's saline or a xylitol based one, can be really helpful. 00:42:01.384 --> 00:42:08.989 And then anything that reduces inflammation and other inflammatory markers, like fish oil can be helpful, and electrolytes. 00:42:08.989 --> 00:42:25.231 So they'd be sort of the basic things that you could comfortably begin, ideally under supervision, but would also be things you could safely use if you won't yet seeing a clinician and then environment wise. 00:42:25.231 --> 00:42:28.860 So there's a few, I guess, things that I could share with you. 00:42:30.186 --> 00:42:35.061 Regardless of where you are, you need to monitor and manage the relative humidity. 00:42:35.061 --> 00:42:52.351 So what I mean by that is, if you're in a home, you should have a thermo hygrometer in every room, and ultimately, the range of relative humidity you need to keep your home in is really between 45% and 55%. 00:42:52.351 --> 00:43:01.257 Anything lower than 40 is too dry for human health and we start to see mucus membranes and skin suffering and propensity for infection start to rise. 00:43:01.257 --> 00:43:07.574 And anything over 60%, we see dust mites and mold beginning to grow. 00:43:07.574 --> 00:43:15.414 So dust mites, 60%, aspergillus species at 66% and then from 70% onwards, it's chaos. 00:43:15.414 --> 00:43:21.449 And just looking at mine at 67%, it was 81% the other day. 00:43:21.610 --> 00:43:32.885 So as soon as you see it come outside or start to creep towards 60 and over, you need to start drawing the moisture out of the home, and that primarily will involve using dehumidifiers. 00:43:32.885 --> 00:43:37.197 Now some aircon units have a dry mode. 00:43:37.197 --> 00:43:44.063 Of course, your aircon must have been sanitized and disinfected within the last six months, otherwise it's probably just going to blow mold out. 00:43:44.063 --> 00:43:46.472 So get that done first. 00:43:46.472 --> 00:43:55.983 But I don't find dry mode is enough for most homes, especially not in tropical subtropical areas or places like Sydney when it's built on an aquifer. 00:43:55.983 --> 00:44:01.123 So as soon as

it warms up, all of the evaporated moisture rises into the air and there's just too much volume. 00:44:01.204 --> 00:44:18.003 So if you are camping to avoid mold or you're living in a car, a portable small dehumidifier and a thermo hygrometer for your tent or your vehicle would also be crucial, because otherwise, more than a few days of elevated humidity, your mattress is going to start to go moldy. 00:44:18.003 --> 00:44:25.132 You can start going to start to have mold growing in that space too, and it will become problematic for you again. 00:44:25.132 --> 00:44:28.641 So that would be my number one thing to prevent it. 00:44:28.641 --> 00:44:40.215 Obviously, things like ventilation and sunlight are helpful Drying things out, making sure things are really dry before you put them away when you're sharing and cooking, making sure the steam is being vented to the outside of your home. 00:44:40.384 --> 00:44:58.304 But when it comes to dealing with an existing mold problem, the hard and fast rule is mold needs to be removed, not killed or covered up, and so I would never use bleach ever. 00:44:58.304 --> 00:45:13.722 And depending on what surface has been impacted by mold, growth will depend on your approach, and again, this is something you would really should consult a certified mold testing technician or building biologist to get recommendations specific to you. 00:45:13.722 --> 00:45:20.603 But these guidelines will just give you a sense of what to do and therefore, when I tell you what not to do, you'll understand why. 00:45:20.603 --> 00:45:36.275 So if the surface is a non porous surface let's say it's bathroom tiles or it's a glass kitchen splash, back or windows or aluminium window frames, or it's glass or ceramic you can. 00:45:36.275 --> 00:45:42.474 A damp microfiber cloth is actually enough to physically remove it and then you can dry it thoroughly. 00:45:42.474 --> 00:45:52.047 I personally like to use warm water with a bit of dishwashing detergent, a splash of white vinegar oil, because I'm extra like that. 00:45:52.047 --> 00:46:04.690 But killing mold will trigger its defensive response and mycotoxin production, which is why, if you're particularly sensitive, just using a damp microfiber cloth is fine. 00:46:04.690 --> 00:46:12.215 It's the physical removal and on non porous surfaces mold can't dig their roots and so you just they just wipe wipes off easily. 00:46:12.215 --> 00:46:30.291 If it's somewhere like white tiles and grout, you can use like a hydrogen peroxide water blend to help restore, like the visual appeal, and I would use that in place of bleach, just because the combination of bleach and mycotoxins creates like a super chemical that's really poisonous. 00:46:31.452 --> 00:46:38.155 But when it comes to semi porous and porous items, you actually have to cut it out. 00:46:38.155 --> 00:46:43.385 So on a practical level, let's say it's growing on your couch. 00:46:43.385 --> 00:46:59.532 Obviously you can't cut a chunk of your couch out and still have a usable couch, so it either goes in the bin or, you know, I had one client who it was her grandmother's, like you know, heirloom, vintage, antique things. 00:46:59.532 --> 00:47:05.351 So what she did was she just stripped off all the fabric and foam and had the whole thing reupholstered. 00:47:05.351 --> 00:47:12.653 But given how cheap furniture is these days sometimes you're probably just better off replacing it. 00:47:12.653 --> 00:47:15.711 If it's your mattress, same thing it has that has to go on the bin. 00:47:15.711 --> 00:47:27.815 In fact, mattress and pillows would be the number one priority because that's where you're sleeping eight hours a night, give or take, and breathing in, you know, all of that straight into your airway and actually contacting your skin. 00:47:27.815 --> 00:47:36.637 That would be a much higher priority than, say, a floor rug, for instance, a baby high chair that's plastic should be okay. 00:47:36.697 --> 00:47:42.032 The thing is, mycotoxins actually can add Zorb to surfaces. 00:47:42.032 --> 00:47:45.844 So even though it might be mold free, the chemical has sunk, sunk in. 00:47:45.844 --> 00:47:51.264 Think about like if you spilled turmeric on your kitchen bench and then it just the yellow stain. 00:47:51.264 --> 00:47:53.050 It's like it's absorbed into the stone. 00:47:53.050 --> 00:47:54.916 This is what happens with the chemicals. 00:47:54.916 --> 00:48:07.418 So, yeah, things like if there's no visible mold, you might be able to just clean it and be okay, but porous things that are foam which the spores get trapped in, I'd get rid of. 00:48:07.539 --> 00:48:23.987 And then often what I'm guiding people to do is actually, you know, storing their stuff with things like moisture absorbing units in a climate controlled area and actually just allowing themselves to recover a bit before they bring all of their stuff out. 00:48:23.987 --> 00:48:27.519 And then, you know, I guide people to remediate things properly. 00:48:27.519 --> 00:48:35.260 But sometimes, if they're still reacting, at least they can discard it then, knowing they did all they could to try and, you know, restore it. 00:48:35.260 --> 00:48:40.851 And it means you're not sort of dumping things upfront, which is just can be very traumatic for people. 00:48:40.851 --> 00:48:54.007 So, yeah, if you, if you want to me to point you to a reference, the ANSI double ICRC guidelines are the ones that we adhere to as building biologists and certified mold testing technicians. 00:48:54.007 --> 00:49:05.431 That being said, the documents are about $500 to purchase and you then have to navigate that on your own and if you've been affected cognitively, it's probably a bit hard. 00:49:05.431 --> 00:49:10.349 I think you're better off, you know, engaging someone who's, you know, actually studied that and let them. 00:49:10.349 --> 00:49:11.393 Let them guide you. 00:49:12.697 --> 00:49:17.369 Gotcha, we will definitely be putting all of these acronyms up on the website. 00:49:17.369 --> 00:49:20.434 So that's VCSS, is that right? 00:49:20.855 --> 00:49:21.476 And the BCSS? 00:49:21.476 --> 00:49:26.085 No, no, no. 00:49:26.628 --> 00:49:30.356 And the and the early and what was the guidelines you spoke of just then. 00:49:31.425 --> 00:49:39.878 Ah yes, the ANSI double R, double ICRC, S520 and R520. 00:49:39.878 --> 00:49:41.601 So I'll send you up on the website. 00:49:42.427 --> 00:49:44.452 Yeah, that'd be lovely, amy. 00:49:44.452 --> 00:49:53.878 Thank you so much for taking us through this confronting and confounding condition, which is more than one condition. 00:49:53.878 --> 00:49:57.268 I'm sort of picking up. 00:49:57.268 --> 00:50:00.561 But anyway, thank you so much for taking us through this today. 00:50:00.561 --> 00:50:05.364 And it's great that we have somebody at the helm like yourself, and there's also Lisa McDonald. 00:50:05.364 --> 00:50:27.701 There's Nicole Biltma Sorry, nick, stumbling on your name there so it's great that we have these captains to guide patients and guide, indeed, practitioners to find out more in an ethical way and to see how we can help patients sort of recover from this debilitating illness. 00:50:27.701 --> 00:50:29.606 Thank you so much for taking us through this today. 00:50:31.150 --> 00:50:32.996 Thanks, andrew, appreciate your time. 00:50:34.641 --> 00:50:36.746 And thank you everyone for joining us today. 00:50:36.746 --> 00:50:42.326 Of course, you'll find all of the show notes and the other podcasts on the Designs for Health website. 00:50:42.326 --> 00:50:43.869 I'm Andrew Whitfield Cook. 00:50:43.869 --> 00:50:45.713 This is Wellness by Designs.