Pełna transkrypcja odcinka UP446 Wedge Issues: The Man Who Bought The Tour

price drinks blah blah blah And we sold it up and down the country in mainly in train stations at a Stand it was like 30 quid a pop and and then we opened retail stores with it. 00:04:52.552 --> 00:04:56.052 We had them up and down the country and that was a real rollercoaster. 00:04:56.122 --> 00:05:15.052 And I did pretty well with that to the point where the internet was kicking off and I I managed to sell part of it to an ISP that was starting up around the time of free server, if you can recall that, and it was a guy that was the ex owner of, not the owner, manager of Pink Floyd. 00:05:15.552 --> 00:05:36.523 I think his name was Brian Starr, he was a real character it was something like that anyway, but anyway, he I agreed to deal with him, I took my eye off the business, he had a, a quoted company and I was supposed to be getting shares in that company, and at the time I think it was a million quid of the shares and I still kept the business actually, and then he tried to chip me on Right at the close to about 600 grand. 00:05:36.523 --> 00:05:37.773 And I told him to bugger off. 00:05:38.163 --> 00:05:42.112 But in that meantime, I took my eye off the business and I ended up losing everything. 00:05:42.163 --> 00:05:47.492 So it was quite an interesting one, but anyway, I did quite, I, you know, I, I did well cashflow wise. 00:05:47.932 --> 00:05:52.862 But I, I suppose, yeah, a few a few wrong starts and, you know, coming from quite a. 00:05:53.762 --> 00:05:55.302 I suppose a council house background. 00:05:55.372 --> 00:06:00.062 I didn't really understand money and, and cash flow and accounts and all that type of stuff. 00:06:00.062 --> 00:06:06.213 So, you know, it took me a while to really understand how to operate a business properly. 00:06:06.492 --> 00:06:12.670 So you've, there is the up and down of what people quite often, you know, refer to as the entrepreneurial sort of career. 00:06:13.209 --> 00:06:15.790 do you become immune to that as you go on? 00:06:16.139 --> 00:06:23.300 Cause you're, you know, as you get older, do you, that risk reward equation, is that still central with you now? 00:06:23.300 --> 00:06:25.589 Or do you think, okay, now I've learned how to manage that. 00:06:26.223 --> 00:06:29.213 Well, yeah, I, I think I take way more risks than most people. 00:06:30.134 --> 00:06:32.613 but, but it's very calculated now. 00:06:33.204 --> 00:06:35.374 So it's, it's a different type of risk profile. 00:06:35.374 --> 00:06:40.733 And actually when I, when I, when I go back and I look at my history, every single business worked, 00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:41.610 Yeah. 00:06:41.963 --> 00:06:43.444 I just didn't manage it effectively. 00:06:43.793 --> 00:06:49.303 And you know, I, I, my main problem really was my ability to stay focused on one thing. 00:06:49.923 --> 00:06:54.113 And I'd see a shiny new thing and off I'd go and I'd end up doing three, four things. 00:06:54.113 --> 00:06:58.134 And actually now I've got lots of things, but I'm in a position where I can do that. 00:06:58.553 --> 00:07:06.863 So scratching that itch of having something that's interesting to go and do, that's not just the main boring thing that you do every day is, you know, what excites me. 00:07:06.863 --> 00:07:12.096 But then, The thing that you do in a boring way every day is what makes real money. 00:07:12.096 --> 00:07:18.096 And I remember I was, I was nominated to be entrepreneur of the year with the Ernest and Young thing. 00:07:18.136 --> 00:07:33.495 And I was one of many there and these guys that I met without being rude, I thought, sure, I'm better than most of these guys But interestingly, not all of them, but most of them have got their one idea and they just kept going. 00:07:33.925 --> 00:07:41.485 And it was a real light bulb moment for me that, you know, just stick to this one thing, make it work, don't veer away from it, keep going. 00:07:41.875 --> 00:07:51.355 You know, we're 20 years on now and half a billion of turnover, a thousand people and it worked, but I stuck to it until I got to the point where, you know, I could do other things. 00:07:51.536 --> 00:07:52.096 it's gone right. 00:07:52.096 --> 00:07:53.435 The, 00:07:54.326 --> 00:08:00.536 Well, no, the thing is everything went right and then some things went wrong, but that's just, you know, that's the entrepreneurial thing. 00:08:00.536 --> 00:08:02.565 And, you know, I mean, just never giving up really. 00:08:02.675 --> 00:08:03.086 And 00:08:03.175 --> 00:08:04.326 the, the worry. 00:08:04.946 --> 00:08:05.245 Yeah. 00:08:05.245 --> 00:08:07.925 The worry is that, you know, it's interesting. 00:08:07.925 --> 00:08:13.225 It's sort of self selective that room entrepreneur of the year are the, it's a room of the winners, isn't it? 00:08:13.985 --> 00:08:20.526 So there's probably a parallel room or several other rooms where people have stayed on the same horse and it's been the wrong horse. 00:08:20.526 --> 00:08:22.045 That's always the concern, isn't it? 00:08:22.045 --> 00:08:23.906 That you're, you're, back in the wrong horse. 00:08:24.475 --> 00:08:25.526 it, it, it is. 00:08:25.526 --> 00:08:26.005 But you know what? 00:08:27.165 --> 00:08:37.289 Uh, I mean, if you're going in the wrong direction, you're in trouble most of the time, most businesses will work is if you're going in the right direction. 00:08:37.860 --> 00:08:43.519 For me though, it's about, I mean, I have like a simple thing, which is what's the space that you can own? 00:08:43.529 --> 00:08:44.490 Who else is there? 00:08:44.779 --> 00:08:46.049 How do you outmaneuver them? 00:08:46.490 --> 00:08:48.070 What's different about what you do? 00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:56.174 You know, the, You know, the proposition and so on and then really there's got to just be enough margin or enough money in it to make it work. 00:08:56.615 --> 00:09:06.995 So, you know, the, the reason I've done very well with Stayshore, put simply is that I

picked an older audience and that older audience had medical conditions. 00:09:06.995 --> 00:09:12.845 I was the first to put medical conditions front and center of the proposition and and it really took off from there. 00:09:13.325 --> 00:09:16.414 But the, the reality is, is there was enough. 00:09:16.784 --> 00:09:22.534 margin to acquire a customer to then spend more money and I had positive cash flow. 00:09:22.904 --> 00:09:27.404 So, you know, from that point I could just self fulfill and just keep growing and growing. 00:09:27.404 --> 00:09:29.274 And that's what I did and what's happened. 00:09:29.648 --> 00:09:42.014 Insurance, I always think is really interesting for lots of reasons, but I suspect, you know, a lot about your audience in a way that at a sort of level that other types of organizations don't, or are guessing. 00:09:42.303 --> 00:09:58.043 And we're getting, I guess I'm sort of, we get a lot of people on here talking about how sports rights holders can behave more like Amazon, behave more like an insurance or a retailer, or just that granular understanding of the audience doing what you're doing. 00:09:58.259 --> 00:10:00.019 But with, with a sports property. 00:10:00.298 --> 00:10:05.548 So that's where that sort of direction of this question really, but what do you know, what does insurance tell you? 00:10:05.558 --> 00:10:10.798 Cause I'm imagining you, I'm giving up lots of quite rich behavioral information. 00:10:11.663 --> 00:10:12.063 Yeah. 00:10:12.073 --> 00:10:20.494 Well, look, with, with the business like mine and many businesses now in this digital age particularly, well, I suppose any. 00:10:20.813 --> 00:10:22.734 e commerce type business, which we are. 00:10:22.734 --> 00:10:44.614 I mean, consumers pick up the phone to speak to us as well as buy online, but you know, more and more people are buying online the amount of data that's available now to understand the audience what their preferences are, how they want to interact with you and then, you know, well, how they claim, obviously that's a key thing but that data is incredibly important. 00:10:44.624 --> 00:10:48.193 And in fact, if you don't know your data, if you're not on top of your data, now to get that. 00:10:50.989 --> 00:10:52.038 And How do you do it? 00:10:52.479 --> 00:10:53.019 Is that just 00:10:53.464 --> 00:10:53.884 What do you mean? 00:10:53.884 --> 00:10:54.614 how do you do it? 00:10:54.719 --> 00:10:55.749 How do you get that data? 00:10:55.769 --> 00:10:58.879 How, what's the, how do you get information from me? 00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:00.859 It's just, just part of the application process. 00:11:01.134 --> 00:11:05.033 well, yeah, well, there's the application process, but you've got different lots of tech. 00:11:05.053 --> 00:11:10.844 And one of the things I did in 2006, I set up my own tech business which is in Sri Lanka. 00:11:10.844 --> 00:11:12.783 It's got about 300 people there now. 00:11:13.203 --> 00:11:16.347 And so, you know, we've got really smart tech people. 00:11:16.861 --> 00:11:42.719 WizKids out there, but it's, it's your application data, it's your marketing data, it's your behavioral data, and you have to mix all of this, and you've got a range of stuff, everything from what's your acquisition cost for the customer, how often are they returning, what's the lifetime value which cohorts of customer are responding in different ways and giving you more margin You know, and then obviously you've got to look after the customers. 00:11:42.769 --> 00:11:54.918 And it's interesting actually, because, you know, when we are the market leader in this area by quite a long way, and so we're a fair size company, I think in the UK as a broker I think we're about the sixth largest broker in the UK. 00:11:55.359 --> 00:12:03.234 But if you bear in mind that, These brokers are in markets that are tens if not hundreds of billions. 00:12:03.234 --> 00:12:05.744 I mean, the travel insurance market in the UK is about 1. 00:12:05.744 --> 00:12:08.764 6 billion and we've got 450 million of it. 00:12:08.813 --> 00:12:12.043 So, you know, we've been really successful in this one niche. 00:12:12.394 --> 00:12:19.274 So, you know, I suppose when you consider that, it's you know, we've, we've done very well just in, in that one area. 00:12:19.717 --> 00:12:28.650 So when you, when you look at golf and we get to the the product, what is the product do you think of the tours? 00:12:28.940 --> 00:12:30.809 Of golf or the tours or generally? 00:12:30.826 --> 00:12:33.495 I think, well, let's do both, but I'm assuming they're different. 00:12:33.787 --> 00:12:35.187 well, I've, I've made them different. 00:12:35.746 --> 00:12:42.226 so I mean, look, typically you've got you know, the golf tours, as you know, the, you know, the PGA tour. 00:12:42.226 --> 00:12:55.626 And I suppose you can say that live now and DP world, you know, you've got the best players in the world that are entertaining the consumer both on TV and and in, you know, in person at these various events. 00:12:55.956 --> 00:12:57.047 So, you know, you've got. 00:12:57.427 --> 00:13:04.417 Aurora driving the 330, 40 yards or whatever, and everything that goes along with these young lads playing, playing golf. 00:13:04.427 --> 00:13:17.937 So, I mean, it's you know, it's a sport that's really evolved, you know, the fitness side of it, I think is really moved on from when it was, when I was a young lad, when you imagine golfers then versus now, they're quite different and they are athletes now. 00:13:18.006 --> 00:13:21.706 So in that sense, I think it's, it's really taken off. 00:13:21.706 --> 00:13:23.187 And I think on the back of COVID, it's. 00:13:23.187 --> 00:13:24.657 Geared up a, a lot more, isn't it? 00:13:24.716 --> 00:13:25.076 So 00:13:25.299 --> 00:13:27.470 Ryan, just, I quite miss the fat golfer, don't you? 00:13:29.690 --> 00:13:35.399 I quite like, there was a bit of it that I thought, I quite liked the

chubby fella, you know, it gave us all hope. 00:13:35.450 --> 00:13:39.120 You know, it was that they were a bit more everyman, now they're all sort of superhero looking. 00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:39.299 I, 00:13:39.634 --> 00:13:43.774 well, well, they are, but we, we've still, we've got a few Chubbies on the, uh, on, on the tour. 00:13:44.235 --> 00:13:48.674 Uh, I actually, I was fortunate to play with, uh oh. 00:13:48.674 --> 00:13:49.754 What's the masters winner? 00:13:49.754 --> 00:13:52.539 The the guy from from Argentina. 00:13:52.970 --> 00:13:53.168 Oh. 00:13:53.712 --> 00:13:54.013 yeah. 00:13:54.013 --> 00:13:54.062 Oh. 00:13:54.062 --> 00:13:54.562 blimey, what's 00:13:54.707 --> 00:14:04.347 He's won it twice, what's his name, I can't, I've lost his, I've lost his name for the moment, but he's, he's quite a chubby but big bear y type fella and he is an absolute country mile. 00:14:04.368 --> 00:14:12.998 So, you know, some of these guys the older guys, they're, they're still very you know, it's, it's wrist and it's it's timing and all of 00:14:13.238 --> 00:14:15.028 I saw your ad with, with Monty. 00:14:15.488 --> 00:14:15.508 I 00:14:15.638 --> 00:14:15.977 Yeah. 00:14:15.977 --> 00:14:20.408 Well, Monty, I mean, he just has that little left to right that just drops in everywhere. 00:14:20.467 --> 00:14:20.827 Yeah. 00:14:20.857 --> 00:14:21.187 Yeah. 00:14:21.207 --> 00:14:22.038 So really good. 00:14:22.538 --> 00:14:31.607 So I, I suppose, you know, our our product from a, from the consumer watching it is a different product because it's not the vomit and all of that. 00:14:31.947 --> 00:14:33.748 Although these guys can still get it out there. 00:14:33.758 --> 00:14:37.097 Some of them are getting it over 300 yards thereabouts. 00:14:37.538 --> 00:14:43.928 But I think it's more, especially in person it's, it's more real. 00:14:44.489 --> 00:14:51.149 Because most people nowadays can hit a driver 250, 60 yards. 00:14:51.149 --> 00:14:54.818 And some of these guys are hitting it 250, 260, 270. 00:14:55.139 --> 00:15:05.020 Or if you take somebody like Gary Wollstone home he perhaps know his, his history you know, Walker, great amateur player and all of that, doesn't hit it very far at all. 00:15:05.078 --> 00:15:09.099 but he, you know, he can compete and he, and he's brilliant around the green. 00:15:09.099 --> 00:15:10.609 So you, you have this. 00:15:11.024 --> 00:15:19.283 Different dynamic where it's quite funny really where you'll get some guys and they're up there and they're like, they can hit it as far as these guys, but they can't score. 00:15:19.624 --> 00:15:21.163 It's quite different, you know. 00:15:21.333 --> 00:15:22.614 Angel Cabrera. 00:15:22.984 --> 00:15:23.344 That's it. 00:15:23.344 --> 00:15:23.793 Well done. 00:15:23.793 --> 00:15:34.464 And that, that was a controversial one actually, you know, because that and Trump, which we'll perhaps get onto a little bit later, but yeah. 00:15:34.759 --> 00:15:42.730 You know, obviously the problems that Angela had had, but we just took the view that, you know, it served his time, moved on and we wanted him to play and it was a big draw actually. 00:15:42.869 --> 00:15:43.808 He's been in prison, hasn't he? 00:15:43.899 --> 00:15:44.298 I think that, 00:15:44.337 --> 00:15:45.018 Yeah, he had. 00:15:45.038 --> 00:15:45.408 Yeah. 00:15:45.488 --> 00:15:45.827 yeah. 00:15:45.888 --> 00:15:46.197 Yeah. 00:15:46.520 --> 00:15:47.770 so the, the product is different. 00:15:47.811 --> 00:15:54.436 So in terms of from a business perspective of the, tour, we're looking there at, so it's less a sort of media product. 00:15:54.706 --> 00:15:56.446 Entertainment product. 00:15:56.505 --> 00:15:58.985 I'm wondering about other media rights. 00:15:59.015 --> 00:16:01.346 Is there a market that is that within the tour? 00:16:01.346 --> 00:16:04.096 Does the tour sell those centrally or do you sell those separately? 00:16:04.191 --> 00:16:09.120 we sell them and no, it's, you know, it's absolutely media rights and, and the media. 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:13.130 And in fact I don't know if you had a look at that Rick Shields stuff that I told you about. 00:16:13.130 --> 00:16:13.341 Yeah. 00:16:13.681 --> 00:16:14.900 So, you know, we've. 00:16:15.650 --> 00:16:25.770 We're really pushing the media in quite a big way or the social media because it's incredibly important and we're getting, you know, we're getting a good engagement with this product. 00:16:25.770 --> 00:16:30.160 So from a social side You know, building the product up socially. 00:16:30.160 --> 00:16:39.010 I think what's really interesting about these guys, other than watching them play golf or being able to play alongside them, the locker room stories are just fantastic. 00:16:39.461 --> 00:16:49.236 You know, and, we're going to definitely be building a podcast on the back of these players and and all these stories that are out there because they're quite compelling, very, very funny. 00:16:49.258 --> 00:16:52.107 What do you, think the need is being met here? 00:16:52.148 --> 00:17:04.917 Because there's a trend as you'll be more than aware of sort of cricket is going this route, football, there's a, there's a sort of marketplace for what we used to call the seniors tour, champions tour, whatever the, however we define it. 00:17:05.428 --> 00:17:07.597 What need is being met, do you think, fundamentally? 00:17:08.461 --> 00:17:29.442 well, but depends from which side you're looking at it from an audience side you know, without being disparaging to DP world, unless you've got their major tour they're, you know, they're major tournaments where the big players aren't rocking up and there's some brilliant players on DP world, but aren't recognizable to the audience. 00:17:30.112 --> 00:17:41.471 So, if you take people our age and, you know, a certain demographic, some of the players on our tour are, you know, really, really well known, better than

those. 00:17:41.741 --> 00:17:44.662 So I think that's one need, really, that there's that. 00:17:44.682 --> 00:17:49.507 And I think they're quite surprised when they realise how competitive and how good these guys still are. 00:17:49.856 --> 00:17:51.747 You know, they can still, they can still score. 00:17:51.747 --> 00:17:59.987 And as you're seeing now with, with these over 50s, where you get like a Mickelson that goes and wins a major and so on, so they can still compete. 00:18:00.457 --> 00:18:02.467 Obviously technology helps them as well. 00:18:02.707 --> 00:18:06.676 And if, if they get on a shorter course that, you know, they've got a chance of being able to compete. 00:18:06.696 --> 00:18:08.326 So, so there's, there's that. 00:18:08.926 --> 00:18:10.067 Particular product. 00:18:10.336 --> 00:18:11.356 That's one need. 00:18:11.767 --> 00:18:18.497 The, you know, all of these stories and the social side and the hints and tips and all that type of stuff, we, we will building up that. 00:18:18.497 --> 00:18:26.836 I suppose that's another, and then the in-person stuff that we've done, which is very, very different, which is taking, you know, the at and t format. 00:18:27.092 --> 00:18:35.741 Or not so much exactly that format at and t at Pebble Beach or the Dunhill where you're playing in tournament play with these players. 00:18:36.112 --> 00:18:43.102 But what's different about our products is as opposed to playing in a team format with the pro, you're actually playing your own ball. 00:18:43.662 --> 00:18:49.882 So if you can imagine playing in front of crowds, your own ball whilst they're playing. 00:18:50.376 --> 00:18:51.537 It's very, very different. 00:18:51.688 --> 00:18:53.248 And that's actual tournament play. 00:18:53.248 --> 00:18:54.188 It's not the Wednesday 00:18:54.366 --> 00:18:55.747 yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:18:55.747 --> 00:18:59.146 So this, this is the one thing that really sets us aside. 00:18:59.146 --> 00:19:09.997 So It's in tournament play at brilliant golf courses in front of crowds particularly depending upon where they are in the world. 00:19:10.017 --> 00:19:18.666 But, you know, if you've got The local audience, I mean, like the Stayshore PGA, which is probably our number one tournament up at Trump international. 00:19:18.936 --> 00:19:22.646 You know, you've got 20 odd thousand people and that's just brilliant. 00:19:22.906 --> 00:19:28.106 And the coming up behind you, it's just, the experience is really fantastic. 00:19:28.517 --> 00:19:28.912 But it's. 00:19:29.422 --> 00:19:53.402 It's not for everybody because some people don't like playing in that type of pressured environment because you are alongside them where they're trying to score to win the tournament, you know, I mean, they'll talk to you, they'll have a bit of a laugh and, you know, the prime is one thing before where you've got, you know, you've got one pro and three amateurs and they're having a good time and so on, you know, inside the ropes, it's a very different experience. 00:19:53.837 --> 00:19:55.938 It's interesting because there's a sort of divergence. 00:19:56.067 --> 00:20:00.107 You mentioned social media and there's a question here. 00:20:00.107 --> 00:20:04.087 There's two, the two directions is one is performance, 00:20:04.561 --> 00:20:05.071 Yeah. 00:20:05.147 --> 00:20:05.657 performance. 00:20:05.657 --> 00:20:07.728 There's sort of superhuman aspect to it. 00:20:08.288 --> 00:20:10.567 And then there's the relatability point. 00:20:10.567 --> 00:20:25.847 And you mentioned Rich Shields, you know, so there's a whole growth of, of the golfer as the sort of club pro who has made a career out of, of uh, being relatable, doing stuff, asking questions that, you know, you don't get on the TV coverage. 00:20:25.847 --> 00:20:27.551 So you've got that divergence and it's 00:20:27.936 --> 00:20:28.287 Yeah. 00:20:28.912 --> 00:20:33.271 in many places where you can put those two worlds together on the same and get them playing together. 00:20:33.271 --> 00:20:39.432 Is that, I mean, it's, it's sort of without, uh, without a compromise that's too, is too big. 00:20:40.027 --> 00:20:41.467 yeah, not at all. 00:20:41.467 --> 00:20:45.166 And you this is where, when I, when I actually did this deal. 00:20:45.166 --> 00:20:49.646 So to start with you know, I sponsored this what was the European senior tour? 00:20:50.156 --> 00:20:52.086 I don't know if you're going to go there a bit later on. 00:20:52.086 --> 00:20:53.686 I'll cover a little bit of that now. 00:20:54.162 --> 00:20:54.412 Let's do it 00:20:54.537 --> 00:20:54.767 Yeah. 00:20:55.152 --> 00:20:58.192 Is it was to stay short or wasn't it Did 00:20:58.227 --> 00:21:14.382 started off, it was the European senior tour and David McLaren, who was the then then head of tour, had been introduced to me by one of the pros, somebody that I knew, and suggested it might be a good idea for me to sponsor the senior tour. 00:21:15.392 --> 00:21:19.031 And They wanted quite a lot of money at that point and I didn't think it was really worth it. 00:21:19.571 --> 00:21:23.071 But in the end, you know, we, we, we did a deal that worked for me. 00:21:23.412 --> 00:21:29.852 And, you know, Keith Pelly said something really clever, which was we were going to call it the Stayshore European Senior Tour. 00:21:29.852 --> 00:21:35.612 And Kelly said, Pelly said, just call it the Stayshore Tour because the brand, it'll just be Stayshore. 00:21:35.612 --> 00:21:38.301 And that, and it really did work and worked quite well. 00:21:38.731 --> 00:21:46.801 But what, The tour we're doing, because most of their when I said the tour, I'm on about DP world now, or as it was then the European tour. 00:21:47.291 --> 00:21:55.832 You know, they were really focused as you can imagine on the European tour and very, very few resources were put into the what was then the senior tour. 00:21:56.271 --> 00:21:58.511 And in fact, they didn't

market this thing at all. 00:21:59.342 --> 00:22:07.132 So you can imagine you've got people like Woozie, Montgomery, whoever they are, turning up and playing somewhere and nobody knew about it. 00:22:08.582 --> 00:22:13.192 And I'm like, well, surely you've got to put these guys front and center of this thing and market it. 00:22:13.201 --> 00:22:19.291 And I was astounded when I saw that there was literally no marketing, I mean, nothing, there was no marketing budget. 00:22:19.882 --> 00:22:21.922 And I'm like, well, that's a starting point. 00:22:21.961 --> 00:22:26.521 And then there was this trial format of playing in the tournament, this tournament play. 00:22:27.251 --> 00:22:31.102 And it was, it, it just really was very, very good. 00:22:31.652 --> 00:22:40.711 And, and at that point I said to David McLaren, who was then the head of tour, as I said, I think this thing needs marketing way, way more and just changing. 00:22:41.182 --> 00:22:52.071 And I said, do you think there's any chance that I could take ownership of this and I said, I doubt it, you know, it's a member's organization that there's any chance anyway, I persevered and then did a deal. 00:22:52.352 --> 00:22:56.332 I probably the worst timing of a deal I could have ever done, which was in the middle of COVID. 00:22:56.332 --> 00:22:57.501 It was really stupid. 00:22:58.031 --> 00:23:00.432 Anyway, I did and yeah, got 00:23:00.457 --> 00:23:03.957 that, did that move it from definitely No, to yes. 00:23:04.028 --> 00:23:05.227 What 00:23:05.342 --> 00:23:15.862 No, we actually, in fairness, we had, uh, we had agreed verbally a deal, but there was contractual stuff to do, and I just wanted to get it over the line and get going. 00:23:15.862 --> 00:23:16.541 And uh, 00:23:16.787 --> 00:23:17.777 were the barriers to that? 00:23:17.777 --> 00:23:20.537 Why did David, why was he so it's just good. 00:23:20.537 --> 00:23:20.906 It's never been 00:23:21.011 --> 00:23:26.768 well, well, well, it had not been done before, but also It's a members organization. 00:23:27.228 --> 00:23:29.357 So the members have to vote. 00:23:29.992 --> 00:23:30.593 to do that. 00:23:31.012 --> 00:23:43.042 So if you can imagine that, you know, you've got a committee and you've got the tour and the board and their, their role is to look after the players and make sure that they're doing the best thing for the players that they can. 00:23:43.682 --> 00:23:45.972 So you've got a commercial guy that's coming along. 00:23:46.353 --> 00:23:50.752 I mean, they obviously trusted me to a degree, but there's also. 00:23:51.488 --> 00:23:55.178 What does it mean if some guy takes it over commercially and changes it? 00:23:55.188 --> 00:23:58.518 So there are, there are some things which I can't do. 00:23:58.788 --> 00:24:13.768 For example, if I wanted to change the size of the hole or the, some of the formatting stuff, well, format I'm in charge of, but if I wanted to change things radically, I wouldn't, I would have to get that through a committee, but other than that, I'm in total control of the business. 00:24:14.624 --> 00:24:16.530 So well, there's a few things there. 00:24:16.711 --> 00:24:17.681 This is really fascinating. 00:24:17.820 --> 00:24:20.621 I guess there's a live golf comparison here. 00:24:21.070 --> 00:24:29.260 So when I first saw the live golf deck and I, we had the, you know, people in book before, and we had the PGL uh, Andy Gardner from PGL. 00:24:29.260 --> 00:24:29.480 And 00:24:29.875 --> 00:24:30.275 Yeah. 00:24:31.010 --> 00:24:35.193 there was a lot I liked about the product, the idea at a product level. 00:24:35.223 --> 00:24:36.804 I don't love live as a, as a. 00:24:37.098 --> 00:24:41.929 The execution of it, but the idea of it, I thought was asking some really interesting questions. 00:24:41.929 --> 00:24:49.068 And you mentioned there that it's a, you know, these tours are membership organizations and they've got to act on behalf of all of the members. 00:24:49.078 --> 00:24:50.618 So it's not the top 10 golfers. 00:24:51.378 --> 00:24:52.259 It's everyone. 00:24:52.898 --> 00:24:55.648 And that's always seen as a sort of bit of a strategic floor. 00:24:55.659 --> 00:24:58.703 That's the root in that live was, that was what live was doing. 00:24:59.097 --> 00:24:59.448 Yeah, 00:24:59.483 --> 00:25:00.534 getting at, wasn't it? 00:25:00.804 --> 00:25:06.041 And again, it's sort of interesting you are doing, you've seen the same dynamic, 00:25:06.041 --> 00:25:07.352 Yeah, but, but 00:25:07.652 --> 00:25:07.932 context. 00:25:09.612 --> 00:25:10.001 it is. 00:25:10.001 --> 00:25:20.231 And it's very similar, but they're not really because you've got with, with Liv, those players are contracted and have to play those tournaments, right? 00:25:20.471 --> 00:25:25.961 I have ambassadors and we have a deal for ambassadors, which are the bigger name players on the tour. 00:25:26.432 --> 00:25:31.467 And we do You know, we do sort of contract them into play some tournaments. 00:25:31.477 --> 00:25:38.846 So in that respect, it's, it's similar, but then I'm dealing with a members organization at the same time. 00:25:38.846 --> 00:25:48.737 So what you've got is you've got me as a majority shareholder my organization, and you've got DP world as a minority organization, and they are looking out for the. 00:25:49.912 --> 00:25:51.771 You know, for the, for the player's interests. 00:25:52.142 --> 00:26:13.721 And so, when I initially did this deal, the bit that got it over the line was that there was a prize fund and I guaranteed a minimum prize fund and a minimum number of tournaments, and that was a risk that I took and the simple move I made was I was sponsoring this thing and I thought, I wonder if I can turn it from sponsorship money to ownership. 00:26:14.382 --> 00:26:18.172 In other words, imagine if for that amount of money, I own the thing rather than. 00:26:18.646 --> 00:26:19.586 I'm just a sponsor.

00:26:19.866 --> 00:26:20.186 Right. 00:26:20.646 --> 00:26:24.616 And the big difference really is that these tours. 00:26:25.832 --> 00:26:37.731 I mean, even live to this degree, really, is that the problem with these tours is the players are paid so much money that it's very, very difficult to commercially make it work. 00:26:37.781 --> 00:26:42.362 Because, as you know, it's just a race to who will pay the most gets the best player. 00:26:42.521 --> 00:27:10.480 And I suppose you can understand that, but what these tours aren't doing, and I think Liver are going to have a go at this, and this new, I think this new strategic alliance that they'll probably end up doing with the PGA DP World and and PIF will be more in this line because they're looking at the economics of golf, and that's basically where I saw a really big thing that we could do, that we could, basically go after this over 50s audience. 00:27:10.900 --> 00:27:18.319 So not just the golf, but what sits around the tournament and these players that we could then make money out of. 00:27:18.589 --> 00:27:26.269 So you end up not just trying to get sponsors, to pay players, to make this thing break even if you're lucky. 00:27:26.920 --> 00:27:28.819 The idea is what else can you do? 00:27:28.930 --> 00:27:48.317 And If you look at the Champions Tour in the US, obviously a very good product, doesn't have what we have in terms of the playing opportunities, they've just got the Pro Ams before, so different in that respect, so I think there we're, you know, we're a better product for the consumer, the playing consumer I'm talking about there. 00:27:49.792 --> 00:28:04.022 But what they're not doing is building on that over 50s audience and trying to get commercial income from other things, utilizing the players to drive those products and services, whatever they might be. 00:28:04.393 --> 00:28:08.553 And that's fundamentally where I'm going that's completely different to everywhere, everybody else. 00:28:08.972 --> 00:28:10.553 just explain that a stage further. 00:28:10.553 --> 00:28:12.143 So I think I understand what you're talking 00:28:12.153 --> 00:28:12.432 Yeah. 00:28:12.623 --> 00:28:14.972 So, so I'll give you a couple of examples. 00:28:15.313 --> 00:28:19.239 So we have, uh, Legends Tour Resorts. 00:28:21.104 --> 00:28:30.294 One of the, I think it's about 11 billion spent annually on property purchases at golf courses, actually on resort, right? 00:28:30.773 --> 00:28:40.689 So one of the things we're moving to from the 26th season, will that be all of our tournaments will be on golf resort properties. 00:28:41.429 --> 00:28:50.588 So when we rock up, we rock up with high net worths and then we'll promote that venue and that property throughout the year. 00:28:51.009 --> 00:28:54.159 And we'll put it out in all the channels that you'd expect to buy property as well. 00:28:54.169 --> 00:28:59.088 But what we'll do is create the best content in golf for resort property. 00:28:59.088 --> 00:29:19.128 So if you can imagine a major winner talking about the course and so on over drones flying over and then taking one of our presenters like Rachel wherever Abigail, you know, one of the good attractive presenters, if I might say that you know, and, and presenting that property in a way, and then, you know, then we go. 00:29:19.128 --> 00:29:22.558 So we've got income there that's different to everywhere else. 00:29:22.588 --> 00:29:25.509 And the extension of that is that we are. 00:29:26.023 --> 00:29:43.374 Riding the final throes of, of buying our first resort and this resort is it's got planning for about 2, 000 properties in Spain, it's got over 6 or 800 million billed out and we'll badge it up as a Legends Tour resort, which will be a physical resort. 00:29:44.358 --> 00:29:49.358 So suddenly we've got a very different model in that one sense. 00:29:49.669 --> 00:29:55.368 And then on the other side you know, what, what are the products and services that these guys can promote? 00:29:55.638 --> 00:29:57.749 So take apparel and so on. 00:29:57.749 --> 00:30:02.118 So we're, you know, we're, we'll build an apparel brand that will sit alongside the tour. 00:30:02.398 --> 00:30:07.648 So all of these things then will bring money into the tour and be commercially viable. 00:30:07.888 --> 00:30:09.648 So if you, if you're thinking about. 00:30:09.913 --> 00:30:16.263 You know, why would, why would why would somebody want to invest in Legends Tour Holdings, which is what it will be? 00:30:16.933 --> 00:30:26.683 Because you've got a big property play, you'll have a big apparel play, you'll have some of the biggest names in golf, Ryder Cup captains, major winners, all of that, promoting this ecosystem. 00:30:26.713 --> 00:30:30.243 And then you've got the sports rights holders value and whatever that is. 00:30:30.673 --> 00:30:43.473 So when you put all of that together, you've It's a big thing because you've then got this over 50s audience that is engaging with it in a way, and, and, you know, at some point maybe purchasing through it as well. 00:30:43.713 --> 00:30:46.374 So it's not just about the tour, the tournaments. 00:30:47.454 --> 00:30:49.837 So how far, where do you start and stop? 00:30:49.837 --> 00:30:52.407 Do you, are you buying those resorts? 00:30:52.407 --> 00:30:57.038 You'll make, you own those resorts and then, you know, so there is a Trump parallel here. 00:30:57.048 --> 00:30:59.238 I'm not talking about personally, but there is a model. 00:30:59.268 --> 00:31:03.048 I can see a sort of echoes of, of branded resorts. 00:31:04.157 --> 00:31:11.528 Golf being used as a marketing sort of arm of that and the stars being, you know, front, it could be fronting that. 00:31:11.567 --> 00:31:17.867 So I can, I, I see that, but where do you, are you, are you a marketing company or are you a property developer? 00:31:18.946 --> 00:31:19.537 both. 00:31:19.636 --> 00:31:26.527 So, you know, if you imagine

the time it would take to build out resorts around the world, quite a long time. 00:31:26.916 --> 00:31:32.076 So, that's one at a time, picking the right locations and so on. 00:31:32.076 --> 00:31:42.997 And what's interesting about that, actually, is that Countries that we've been going to, governments have been very interested in, in what we're doing because we're bringing a tourism side to it. 00:31:43.356 --> 00:31:45.977 And they're interested in opening up land for zoning for us. 00:31:45.987 --> 00:31:47.317 So that's, that's interesting. 00:31:47.317 --> 00:31:50.616 But we've got one that's, you know, about to go. 00:31:51.287 --> 00:31:54.531 Other than that one, The other ones will be venues. 00:31:54.531 --> 00:32:07.872 So Trump is our partner, for example, in the Aberdeen and we'll look at other ones with Trump and any other resorts where the central theme is property, but it has to be a real quality resort. 00:32:07.932 --> 00:32:09.801 It's, it's at the top end really. 00:32:10.211 --> 00:32:19.946 And so, so In one respect, you could call Legends Tour Resorts a real estate company and another could, and you would say it's a property developer. 00:32:20.446 --> 00:32:30.027 And then on the apparel side or whatever product you put alongside it, you know, there'll be a brand there that will start to sell stuff that these guys will be wearing and promoting. 00:32:31.083 --> 00:32:31.663 It's interesting. 00:32:31.762 --> 00:32:34.573 I mean, this is a long time ago now, probably 15 years ago. 00:32:34.573 --> 00:32:38.143 I used to work with uh, KPMG. 00:32:38.597 --> 00:32:40.307 On their golf business forum. 00:32:40.307 --> 00:32:48.667 And they, and that was, you know, their business model obviously was, you know, do you want to build a, if you're a property developer, come and talk to us. 00:32:48.678 --> 00:32:53.557 Can you, you know, the feasibility study of, of, building in Bulgaria, a golf 00:32:53.737 --> 00:32:54.237 Yeah. 00:32:54.688 --> 00:32:57.087 pay us a hundred grand and we'll, you know, and the answer will be yes. 00:32:57.298 --> 00:32:58.407 Essentially, that was the business model. 00:32:58.728 --> 00:33:09.127 And then, and funnily enough, Guy Kinnings, who's obviously now in charge of the European tour, he bought the KPMG event and made it the HSBC event and got me into to help out. 00:33:09.528 --> 00:33:23.073 And that was again, a while ago, but the reading of the original KPMG event was that, There was a sort of of golf, driver of, property development value and an oversupply. 00:33:23.073 --> 00:33:24.952 And it was rider cut related in many ways. 00:33:24.972 --> 00:33:38.490 It was in particularly in Europe, where you had Portugal and Ireland and Spain and other bits of Europe where you had that golf driving the property development, selling around it, Greg Norman doing some similar around the 00:33:38.513 --> 00:33:38.864 Yeah. 00:33:38.962 --> 00:33:39.343 So. 00:33:39.548 --> 00:33:42.577 I thought the, the, the energy had gone out of that marketplace. 00:33:42.577 --> 00:33:45.788 And it's interesting that you're now going back into it. 00:33:45.837 --> 00:33:49.298 And I'm wondering what that tells me about the money. 00:33:49.747 --> 00:33:50.076 Yeah. 00:33:50.086 --> 00:33:56.942 Well, uh, uh, I think COVID had a big Push with this, right? 00:33:57.021 --> 00:34:03.311 So post COVID property sales went up in rural places and particularly golf courses. 00:34:03.721 --> 00:34:12.282 And I think golf has become more popular post COVID and what's interesting about people buying on a golf resort is it's not just golfers. 00:34:13.181 --> 00:34:17.032 It's it's people who want that type of environment. 00:34:17.411 --> 00:34:24.211 And if you, if you, I mean, there's something quite interesting happening now with equestrian and golf going together, that's quite interesting. 00:34:24.581 --> 00:34:32.001 And then if you take, I suppose the peak of this in terms of premium value, you've got Discovery Land. 00:34:32.391 --> 00:34:34.702 I don't know if you know Discovery Land, but they've, do you know them? 00:34:35.353 --> 00:34:36.242 Yes, I have heard. 00:34:36.242 --> 00:34:36.672 Yeah. 00:34:36.672 --> 00:34:38.152 Someone was explaining it to me, actually. 00:34:38.436 --> 00:34:46.806 Yeah, so, so Discovery Land build out brilliant golf courses, uh, and then they charge quite a lot of money for just a plot. 00:34:46.856 --> 00:34:55.547 And then you, they do some, some, where you, they build for you or you take a plot and buy, but you know, the plots are several million dollars, they're expensive. 00:34:55.956 --> 00:35:00.077 So, and they're building around the world at the moment and their venues are fantastic. 00:35:00.106 --> 00:35:04.396 So, so, but what you've got is you've got that type of stuff going on. 00:35:04.942 --> 00:35:19.012 With golf, equestrian, they've got the whole family stuff in discovery land, for example, they've got a big movement with regards to vegetables and all the, all the stuff that you're going to eat, you know, they've got like a farming area. 00:35:19.431 --> 00:35:23.731 And then on top of that you know, they've, they've got the latest. 00:35:24.152 --> 00:35:28.262 I suppose tech that's coming out for wellness and, and longevity. 00:35:28.771 --> 00:35:31.411 So, so that, I mean, that's right at one end of the scale. 00:35:31.782 --> 00:35:32.041 If you, 00:35:32.052 --> 00:35:33.583 Greg Norman got into grass, didn't he? 00:35:33.623 --> 00:35:34.992 As in turf 00:35:35.222 --> 00:35:36.762 did he, I, I, I don't know, 00:35:36.762 --> 00:35:37.452 beef as well. 00:35:37.452 --> 00:35:38.063 He, he made a lot 00:35:38.081 --> 00:35:40.811 Oh, well, yeah, yeah, yeah, probably. 00:35:40.811 --> 00:35:42.362 I don't know enough about that actually. 00:35:42.362 --> 00:35:48.746 But, But, but then I think if you think of a really good example of a one that's done very well in this area is like

Finca Cortesin. 00:35:48.777 --> 00:35:56.277 I'm a member there in Southern Spain, as you know, it had, The the Solheim Cup and, and at the world Match play, I think a couple of times. 00:35:56.637 --> 00:36:03.706 But they've got a brilliant, beautiful hotel great facility with a spa and so on, and a massive property play. 00:36:04.262 --> 00:36:07.541 But that isn't in one of the prime locations on the Costa del Sol. 00:36:07.541 --> 00:36:12.811 In fact, it's one of the, in one of the cheaper locations, but that's a five star resort charging a lot of money. 00:36:13.101 --> 00:36:18.911 So, you know, the other thing is that, you know, the cost to build a property is the cost to build a property. 00:36:19.132 --> 00:36:21.112 You're getting a premium at a golf course. 00:36:21.492 --> 00:36:23.922 So, you know, in one of these, I mean, there's. 00:36:24.242 --> 00:36:29.152 particular property resort that we, you know, we're very close to, we're at the contract stage now. 00:36:29.152 --> 00:36:33.472 So I can't say where it is, but you know, that's probably going to have a 300 million profit in it. 00:36:34.211 --> 00:36:36.552 So that's, you know, it's pretty significant. 00:36:37.072 --> 00:36:37.581 Uh, 00:36:37.588 --> 00:36:39.878 that money is, is property development 00:36:40.635 --> 00:36:41.146 Yeah, yeah. 00:36:41.146 --> 00:36:42.516 It's property development. 00:36:42.905 --> 00:36:47.206 But then you've got a resort that's going to run and operate and make a profit as a business. 00:36:47.596 --> 00:36:56.456 So, you know, and hence we're, you know, we're speaking to various funds and investors about coming in alongside us in this TopCo with all of this stuff. 00:36:56.905 --> 00:37:00.076 But at the moment, you know, I've got the ability to be able to do that without those. 00:37:00.076 --> 00:37:04.206 So, you know, I've just got going and then we're, we're putting this ecosystem together. 00:37:04.871 --> 00:37:09.938 Cause there's a sort of, it's interesting cause you're going, so there it's a top Uber type, positioning. 00:37:10.818 --> 00:37:14.434 And my assumption is that they're, they're in the middle of that marketplace. 00:37:14.434 --> 00:37:19.822 There is a glut of golf course resorts around the place that are just sitting there. 00:37:19.833 --> 00:37:25.382 That energy in that bit of the marketplace has sort of dissipated, I guess, is where the mass market has gone. 00:37:25.382 --> 00:37:26.563 But you're going above that. 00:37:26.702 --> 00:37:27.032 Is that. 00:37:27.612 --> 00:37:36.891 Well, I mean, look, I mean, mass market golf, as far as I'm aware, you know, the, the, especially post COVID we're pretty, you know, pretty busy. 00:37:37.291 --> 00:37:41.601 But the premium resorts you know, are doing pretty well. 00:37:41.601 --> 00:37:48.556 And there's, you know, there's some, I mean, Trump's a very good example of an organization building premium resorts. 00:37:48.556 --> 00:37:57.827 I mean, if you, you're probably aware of their 36 holes there now that it's got the second 18 holes up at Trump International, and that's a fabulous second 18 holes. 00:37:58.257 --> 00:38:03.447 And he's got so much property up there that he hasn't actually even bothered starting to sell, but he will be doing soon. 00:38:03.827 --> 00:38:07.831 So, you know, you've got Companies like him that are doing that. 00:38:07.871 --> 00:38:12.481 And there are, you know, there are a number of very wealthy people that are building out multiple resorts. 00:38:12.851 --> 00:38:17.871 So, yeah, I mean, there is a, there is a an opportunity to spend it for those consumers. 00:38:17.871 --> 00:38:26.012 And then You know, if you take the private members clubs at the top end, you know, in the UK, so I'm a member of Wentworth and Beaverbrook, for example. 00:38:26.371 --> 00:38:30.931 Now Beaverbrook is not a property play actually, but it's it's a really good members place. 00:38:30.942 --> 00:38:38.809 I mean, the course is not right at the top end of quality in terms of, a major championship course, but it's just got something about it. 00:38:38.809 --> 00:38:42.219 And it's very playable and a beautiful manor house and so on. 00:38:42.219 --> 00:38:44.429 And people are paying a lot of money for those memberships. 00:38:44.809 --> 00:38:49.358 And then you've got Wentworth, which, you know, the price of those memberships have gone up an awful lot. 00:38:49.619 --> 00:38:50.849 Now, whilst they're not selling. 00:38:51.773 --> 00:38:54.324 the properties anymore because it's well developed out. 00:38:54.463 --> 00:38:58.623 You know, there's lots of plots and people have knocking them down and rebuilding and all sorts. 00:38:58.634 --> 00:39:00.643 So there is, there's a lot of money. 00:39:00.643 --> 00:39:04.804 I mean, there's, you know, as I said, there's 11 billion market of people doing this right now. 00:39:04.983 --> 00:39:07.853 So, I just need a piece of that and we're going to win. 00:39:08.579 --> 00:39:09.659 So, so I don't doubt it. 00:39:09.829 --> 00:39:11.940 There's a, um, it's interesting Wentworth. 00:39:11.940 --> 00:39:15.449 I always think there's a, it's a sort of story of the British economy in some ways. 00:39:15.449 --> 00:39:27.070 I used to go in the eighties and the, it was Bruce and Tarby and, you know, that you sort of, People made good and the houses have all been, they all sort of gone, haven't they? 00:39:27.070 --> 00:39:34.820 And over time the Russian money came in, Chinese money, and they sort of built hotels type houses and, and a lot of it is empty. 00:39:35.219 --> 00:39:41.679 So sort of, there's a, there's a bit of me that's a bit sad about when I go to Wembley, I always find there's not a, there used to be families there. 00:39:41.679 --> 00:39:42.000 Okay. 00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:45.820 They're very wealthy families, but actually now is that there's a sort of coldness to it. 00:39:45.820 --> 00:39:48.469 It's a sort of, do you

understand what I'm getting at? 00:39:49.074 --> 00:39:58.934 actually, uh, I'm, I've got a place there and, uh, you know, going up to the, To the spa and clubhouse, there's loads of families there playing tennis, there's all sorts going on. 00:39:59.304 --> 00:40:02.614 So maybe from the outside looking in I don't think it's 00:40:02.644 --> 00:40:04.554 I don't, I don't get invited to the spa, Ryan. 00:40:04.565 --> 00:40:05.135 That's the problem. 00:40:05.793 --> 00:40:06.704 you need to be at the spa 00:40:06.914 --> 00:40:07.164 Yeah. 00:40:07.164 --> 00:40:07.434 Yeah. 00:40:07.434 --> 00:40:08.795 I don't just don't get the invites. 00:40:08.844 --> 00:40:09.625 What do you make of Trump? 00:40:09.704 --> 00:40:11.235 I mean, you must, you must know him. 00:40:11.235 --> 00:40:13.494 You must've come across him many times. 00:40:13.534 --> 00:40:14.594 Well, I mean, it's weird. 00:40:14.594 --> 00:40:16.514 We're talking about the, you know, he's obviously the president now. 00:40:16.514 --> 00:40:18.385 So what's, what's your take on him? 00:40:18.523 --> 00:40:23.463 Well, you know, previously, as you know, the establishment in golf. 00:40:24.126 --> 00:40:28.445 Really didn't want anything to do with Trump after the you know, the riots in 2020. 00:40:28.956 --> 00:40:34.065 And I, I just think his, you know, some of his golf courses are really brilliant. 00:40:34.065 --> 00:40:37.096 And that one in Aberdeen is, is, is top drawer. 00:40:37.096 --> 00:40:45.335 And I, you know, I met Sarah Malone who runs the the venue up there as the you know, general manager or above that. 00:40:45.335 --> 00:40:54.516 I'm not sure of her exact title, but she's the head honcho and she's, I met her at the BMW and I said, I'd love to have a tournament at your course. 00:40:55.085 --> 00:41:02.916 And and at that time they weren't, you know, Trump was out of favor, you know, they blocked him from trying to do the open and all of that with Turnberry and so on. 00:41:03.485 --> 00:41:05.206 And we just did a deal. 00:41:05.206 --> 00:41:12.306 And and then on the back of that, I met Eric Trump who really eloquent, smart, very smart guy. 00:41:12.806 --> 00:41:16.666 And then, you know, through that Donald Trump interacted with us. 00:41:16.755 --> 00:41:19.925 So, I know he's a little bit like Marmite. 00:41:20.076 --> 00:41:24.045 I'd like to say that, you know, I'd sort of aligned pre all of this going on. 00:41:24.565 --> 00:41:28.275 And yeah, so do I, do I, do I like him? 00:41:28.425 --> 00:41:35.356 I think what's happening in the world now of politics is, Quite frightening with what's gone on with the left. 00:41:35.846 --> 00:41:44.306 I mean, there's misinformation, I'm sure, both sides, but you know, the way the UK is now under Keir Starmer I think is an absolute disaster. 00:41:44.715 --> 00:41:50.826 And this talking down the economy and the better you do, the, the, the more you get hammered is stupidity. 00:41:50.826 --> 00:41:52.266 I mean,

I'll give you a couple of numbers. 00:41:52.266 --> 00:41:55.186 This isn't, this is, I know this is a golf podcast, but I'll give you a couple. 00:41:55.545 --> 00:41:56.876 You know, the top 1%. 00:41:57.235 --> 00:42:03.766 In the UK, taxpayers pay 28 percent of the tax take, 36 percent overall if you take other things. 00:42:04.286 --> 00:42:07.315 Nondoms that they tried to get rid of paid 9. 00:42:07.505 --> 00:42:09.166 5 billion in taxes. 00:42:10.496 --> 00:42:16.016 It'll probably surprise you to know that the tax take for inheritance tax was 7. 00:42:16.016 --> 00:42:16.465 5 billion. 00:42:16.985 --> 00:42:21.630 I think if you give the You know, the general public, the opportunity. 00:42:22.121 --> 00:42:31.840 Would you rather keep the non doms and have these people who are spending cash in the country, nine and a half billion in taxes, plus all the stuff that they get, and have no inheritance tax? 00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:34.161 I think I know what they get, what they go for. 00:42:34.431 --> 00:42:35.800 So, and then, you 00:42:35.811 --> 00:42:38.320 think, do you think people are angry about fairness though? 00:42:38.340 --> 00:42:50.161 I mean, a lot of the, the disparity, that's the argument, whether it's Trump exploiting that, whether it's Ferrari or whatever it is, I don't, that's their, that's the model. 00:42:50.601 --> 00:42:57.001 It's that disparity of income and the way in which the market has favored that group at the very, you 1%. 00:42:57.251 --> 00:42:59.041 yeah, I don't think they have. 00:43:00.050 --> 00:43:07.791 So, you know, look, nine and a half thousand millionaires are going to leave the country, the UK this year. 00:43:08.411 --> 00:43:11.541 Four and a half thousand left last year, right? 00:43:11.661 --> 00:43:17.891 In addition to that, there's 35 million digital nomads around the world. 00:43:18.110 --> 00:43:21.530 A digital nomad is somebody that can go and work from anywhere digitally. 00:43:21.856 --> 00:43:22.215 Right? 00:43:23.175 --> 00:43:30.826 All the countries, or a lot of the countries, Spain, Italy, Portugal, they're doing everything, everything they can to get these people there. 00:43:31.585 --> 00:43:31.885 Right? 00:43:32.545 --> 00:43:42.186 The second most popular country for digital nomads is Britain, after the US, and there are about 3 million of them. 00:43:42.755 --> 00:43:46.186 So 3 million people have left Britain to go and work elsewhere. 00:43:46.556 --> 00:43:53.860 Out of those 400, 000, Have started businesses, all of that money would be in the uk if the UK got their act together. 00:43:54.041 --> 00:43:57.641 It's not just labor that the conservatives got it completely wrong as well. 00:43:57.820 --> 00:44:03.576 So, you know, you can, you can say there's a disparate, you know, the, the, the top. 00:44:04.260 --> 00:44:05.320 Pay less. 00:44:05.681 --> 00:44:16.851 Well, I mean, they'll do what they can to minimize their taxes obviously, but, you know, they're paying a

significant amount of money if they're in the UK and just saying, well, let's get rid of them. 00:44:17.081 --> 00:44:19.331 If you get rid of them, who do you think is going to pay? 00:44:19.641 --> 00:44:20.840 I don't think anyone's saying get rid of that. 00:44:20.840 --> 00:44:23.166 I mean, I think there's a, there's a Question there. 00:44:23.215 --> 00:44:27.005 I mean, although it's interesting, the digital nomads question is interesting. 00:44:27.016 --> 00:44:30.666 So why is Britain attractive to those 00:44:30.851 --> 00:44:31.400 No, it's not. 00:44:32.201 --> 00:44:32.940 That's the point. 00:44:33.050 --> 00:44:34.251 It's not attractive to them. 00:44:34.610 --> 00:44:38.650 The point is Britain doesn't have doesn't have a policy 00:44:38.686 --> 00:44:41.126 You said half, they were number two behind America. 00:44:41.630 --> 00:44:48.150 Yes, so 35 million People in the world are classed as digital nomads, right? 00:44:49.081 --> 00:44:50.351 People that are moving around. 00:44:50.641 --> 00:45:01.170 3 million people have moved out of Britain to go somewhere else to work for a business digitally or to set their own business up somewhere else. 00:45:01.190 --> 00:45:02.880 All of that income is not in Britain. 00:45:03.300 --> 00:45:16.856 So, the reality is that Corporation tax levels are a little bit below rest of Europe, but in that sense, the rest of Europe is a bit of a basket case. 00:45:17.565 --> 00:45:21.885 And then when you put all the taxes together it's huge taxation. 00:45:22.186 --> 00:45:26.016 And in fact even more so now on the, on the labor 00:45:26.465 --> 00:45:31.786 But just on that though, just, I mean, so the, it's still a substantial number. 00:45:31.826 --> 00:45:34.726 Yes, there's going to be people who move because of the tax question. 00:45:35.815 --> 00:45:41.911 Far more stay because Britain is a stable, Relatively stable country. 00:45:41.960 --> 00:45:47.260 I can see arguments for leaving for tax reasons, but I think that's quite a small chunk of people. 00:45:47.556 --> 00:45:50.155 the tax does pay for the stability. 00:45:50.166 --> 00:45:51.456 That's the whole point of it, isn't it? 00:45:51.456 --> 00:45:53.146 It's there to, to generate. 00:45:53.666 --> 00:45:55.925 So services, health services, 00:45:55.989 --> 00:45:59.769 yeah, but let's, let's just think let's think, well, let's just think about that. 00:45:59.934 --> 00:46:00.284 Right? 00:46:00.554 --> 00:46:07.054 This government has put, you know, they're putting huge debt onto the country right now. 00:46:07.295 --> 00:46:11.242 They've got rid of the non doms who would have paid nine and a half billion. 00:46:11.242 --> 00:46:17.028 They're getting rid of a load of people who are going to pay, who would have been paying 28 percent of the tax take. 00:46:17.398 --> 00:46:25.579 So, the people are going to pay more money are the working class people, the people that are in the, without doubt, which is why, look what's happened with the pensions. 00:46:25.579 --> 00:46:27.809 Looks what, look what's happened with the pensioners. 00:46:28.179 --> 00:46:31.579 Looks like, look what's just happened across all of that. 00:46:31.599 --> 00:46:33.659 The, the farmers, the inheritance tax. 00:46:34.273 --> 00:46:35.853 They've got it wrong, right? 00:46:35.853 --> 00:46:40.836 So, uh, started under conservatives because they didn't have the bottle to do what was right. 00:46:40.896 --> 00:46:43.597 And now you've got it on, on steroids. 00:46:43.706 --> 00:46:45.266 Now they have got the ball to do it right. 00:46:46.653 --> 00:46:49.454 Well, you mean conservatives or, or 00:46:49.503 --> 00:46:49.634 no. 00:46:49.634 --> 00:46:51.594 you said the conservatives didn't have the ball to do it right. 00:46:51.603 --> 00:46:54.264 And now you're saying that the new government does 00:46:54.423 --> 00:46:55.423 No, no, no. 00:46:55.423 --> 00:46:55.923 The opposite. 00:46:55.943 --> 00:47:01.684 I mean, The Conservatives should have stuck to their, what they, you know, a lower tax environment. 00:47:01.693 --> 00:47:04.813 Instead, they tried to pander to that left side and they've cocked it up. 00:47:05.500 --> 00:47:06.730 So Liz trust was right. 00:47:07.239 --> 00:47:11.889 Liz, Liz Trust actually had the wrong approach with the right. 00:47:11.900 --> 00:47:14.039 thinking, in my opinion. 00:47:14.090 --> 00:47:14.389 Yeah. 00:47:14.809 --> 00:47:20.760 So, you know, we can, we can, I don't know, you sound like you're probably a Labour, but I 00:47:20.769 --> 00:47:21.030 No. 00:47:21.059 --> 00:47:21.920 Well, I mean, it's interesting. 00:47:21.920 --> 00:47:22.639 You make that projection. 00:47:22.690 --> 00:47:24.306 it's not a them or us. 00:47:24.306 --> 00:47:32.442 I'm trying to get to the basic conversation, which isn't sort of mud throwing uh, you know, Okay, you're on the left, you're on the right. 00:47:32.621 --> 00:47:48.340 I'm interested in where the, the reality is, because actually I can see, people leaving because marginal tax rates have gone up or the farming question, James Dyson and Jeremy Clarkson they are moaning because it was an inheritance tax dodge, but that was, you know, 00:47:48.610 --> 00:47:49.891 but that's, that's not true. 00:47:50.141 --> 00:47:50.490 Right? 00:47:50.501 --> 00:47:58.190 So, uh, yes, those people that have got large swathes of land are trying to protect from inheritance tax. 00:47:58.681 --> 00:48:01.271 The narrative was, let's go and get them. 00:48:03.231 --> 00:48:08.402 The vast majority of farmers are not affected by that because they are below the threshold that is going to be impacted. 00:48:08.726 --> 00:48:15.806 know, actually a lot of the, a lot of them are, but you, you, the point that you're missing is it's not about the farmers. 00:48:16.985 --> 00:48:18.246 It's about a family business. 00:48:18.246 --> 00:48:19.286 So let me explain this. 00:48:19.846 --> 00:48:23.516 So family businesses are

businesses that are unquoted. 00:48:24.356 --> 00:48:25.275 So they're not liquid. 00:48:25.826 --> 00:48:26.346 So. 00:48:27.581 --> 00:48:29.300 Any family business, let's take my business. 00:48:29.300 --> 00:48:32.221 My business is a family business, right? 00:48:32.771 --> 00:48:44.681 So this family business, I'm not taught specifics about mine, but you know, take a family business and then the founder or, you know, the The father, mother, whoever dies. 00:48:45.570 --> 00:48:49.190 At that point there's a 20 percent tax that's got to be paid. 00:48:49.561 --> 00:48:56.780 So let's just say they fall into that, into that category of, I think it's a million or 2 million value that they've created where it starts to go. 00:48:56.780 --> 00:48:58.581 Let's take a couple of million value, right? 00:48:59.081 --> 00:49:03.181 So you've got a 400, 000 pound tax take, right? 00:49:03.190 --> 00:49:06.710 So at that point, they've got to find 400, 000 pounds. 00:49:07.050 --> 00:49:14.481 A business is worth We'll have something like an EBITDA maybe of 200, 000. 00:49:14.940 --> 00:49:23.121 If you take it down below that, because then you've got other costs that come off, you know, maybe they're making 160 grand. 00:49:23.820 --> 00:49:24.110 Right? 00:49:24.161 --> 00:49:27.610 And then they've got salaries, their own salary, their own take, whatever. 00:49:27.971 --> 00:49:33.061 So highly unlikely a business that's worth two or 3 million has actually got any money. 00:49:33.070 --> 00:49:34.440 So it won't be able to pay. 00:49:34.460 --> 00:49:37.380 Most of them will not be able to pay that 400, 000. 00:49:37.380 --> 00:49:41.021 The second thing is because the business isn't quoted, then that. 00:49:41.400 --> 00:49:44.840 The arbitrary value is going to be determined by HMRC. 00:49:44.840 --> 00:49:48.471 And I don't think they're particularly well known for being fair. 00:49:48.880 --> 00:49:52.311 So, so you've got the HMRC determining the value. 00:49:52.360 --> 00:49:56.041 And then if you can't pay, you've got up to 10 years to pay, but then you've got interest to pay. 00:49:57.061 --> 00:50:03.280 So what's actually going to happen is the larger family businesses are going to get bought out by private equity. 00:50:03.905 --> 00:50:10.416 At knockdown prices because they've got to get out and the smaller family businesses just will never be able to get out. 00:50:10.585 --> 00:50:11.425 They'll be stuffed. 00:50:11.956 --> 00:50:18.715 So and and bear in mind the inheritance tax tick is less than letting the non doms stay. 00:50:19.635 --> 00:50:21.195 That's the stupidity of this thing. 00:50:21.606 --> 00:50:27.856 So, you know, without being rude to those people that, that think it's clever, it's actually not clever for business. 00:50:27.856 --> 00:50:29.096 It is not clever for business. 00:50:29.096 --> 00:50:37.945 And my biggest problem with both the conservatives and the labor, but particularly in our labor, where they start, they came in, they talked about how terrible it is. 00:50:38.215 --> 00:50:42.865 Can you imagine a world where I walk into my office or my business every day and I go. 00:50:44.181 --> 00:50:44.900 Oh, it's terrible. 00:50:45.880 --> 00:50:46.300 The will 00:50:46.311 --> 00:50:48.132 Yeah, I don't, I don't, I agree with you on that. 00:50:48.132 --> 00:50:56.181 I think the framing and the, and their, the general demeanor and the signals that they're sending in the public is, has been flawed. 00:50:56.181 --> 00:50:58.172 It really, you know, it's been a bad start. 00:50:58.202 --> 00:51:05.052 And the obvious point being they've had 14, you know, you've got had 14 years of, the conservatives who have left the country in a state that they do. 00:51:05.552 --> 00:51:07.702 Do you agree that it has to, they have to do something. 00:51:07.711 --> 00:51:07.851 It's 00:51:07.871 --> 00:51:08.320 Well, 00:51:08.396 --> 00:51:09.556 continue on the same 00:51:10.010 --> 00:51:10.490 yeah. 00:51:10.550 --> 00:51:10.791 Well, 00:51:11.097 --> 00:51:12.706 Tax is going to be part of it 00:51:12.710 --> 00:51:13.490 I agree. 00:51:13.550 --> 00:51:20.940 I look, I look, just, just so you're aware, my, my, you know, stay sure in Nonrecoverable taxes pays about a hundred million a year. 00:51:21.420 --> 00:51:24.010 So, you know, uh, so here's a point. 00:51:24.041 --> 00:51:25.331 No, it's a lot of money, right? 00:51:25.387 --> 00:51:26.297 It is a lot of money. 00:51:26.327 --> 00:51:27.047 It is a lot of money. 00:51:27.061 --> 00:51:28.431 so, you know. 00:51:28.851 --> 00:51:40.911 If I, for example, wanted to limit my personal taxes, The narrative would be, well, that guy over there is trying to limit his personal taxes, but yet probably pays the equivalent of a thousand people. 00:51:41.010 --> 00:51:54.121 So it's, it's, you know, it, it, it, it's a flawed argument, but, but the, the, the real problem for me is when they say we're going to, like, for example, the NHS, Right? 00:51:54.510 --> 00:51:56.820 They're gonna pile a load of money into the NHS. 00:51:56.840 --> 00:51:58.701 Well, we all want better health services. 00:51:58.710 --> 00:51:59.521 That's a good thing. 00:51:59.641 --> 00:52:25.885 Yeah on the face of it They talk about How we're going to you know Get down the appointment times, you know with AI right now and machine learning you could create Sitting across the top of the NHS the ability to triage hundreds of thousands of people very fast with the right tech. 00:52:26.186 --> 00:52:33.175 What nobody is saying is, this is what we're going to do to to streamline this government. 00:52:33.626 --> 00:53:03.050 Labour are going to throw a load more people at it, and what they're going to do is they're going to put a load of people, that, those people will grow GDP, But that's a little bit like saying this, in my company, to make profits, to grow the turnover, which I suppose works to a degree, I'm going to just throw people

at it, but without any accountability for the profit and loss of the business, because the business of the economics of the government is it's losing money. 00:53:03.760 --> 00:53:05.510 So it doesn't work, right? 00:53:05.811 --> 00:53:11.130 So, and this is where we, you know, right back to your original question of Trump, we've gone a long way with that one, haven't we? 00:53:11.490 --> 00:53:24.865 Right back to your original question of Trump, what I like about Trump is, is, you know, is that you've got, you know, he's sort of, The anti establishment and he's just going to do what he believes is right for America. 00:53:24.865 --> 00:53:28.606 And I think probably his policies will be better. 00:53:28.996 --> 00:53:39.056 But then you've got Musk, who whether you like him or loathe him you know, that guy's got rockets to be able to land and all that type of stuff on the way back down. 00:53:39.056 --> 00:53:41.476 And he's done things that nobody else has really done. 00:53:41.815 --> 00:53:49.476 So when he says he's going to get rid of the waste in the government, I believe he probably will and I'll do a lot of it. 00:53:49.525 --> 00:54:00.106 And then you've got RFK junior who when you look at the obesity in the U S it's horrendous, most of that is driven by pesticides and all the crap that's put in food and so on. 00:54:00.106 --> 00:54:02.686 So, you know, he's going to go and attack that. 00:54:03.166 --> 00:54:06.505 I think if you had something similar in the UK, that would be really good. 00:54:06.846 --> 00:54:09.115 So it's, for me, it's not just about taxes. 00:54:09.135 --> 00:54:12.615 It's about what are we trying to do to make this thing better? 00:54:12.635 --> 00:54:13.956 How do we, you know. 00:54:14.445 --> 00:54:15.215 Like for 00:54:15.277 --> 00:54:21.586 Do you think it's about, the government has been demonized over, over many, you know, the last couple of decades. 00:54:21.856 --> 00:54:23.947 You and I grew up in a council house. 00:54:23.976 --> 00:54:26.447 I went to a state comprehensive school. 00:54:26.927 --> 00:54:29.717 The government does a lot for me and I'm very grateful. 00:54:29.737 --> 00:54:34.396 And I don't think that what I hear is government is bad. 00:54:34.396 --> 00:54:43.702 And there is a, Demonization of government and the politicization of, of government roles, which basically then leads to favoritism and cronyism. 00:54:43.931 --> 00:54:48.961 You can see that, you know, Musk's agenda is transparent. 00:54:48.972 --> 00:54:50.742 Those things have to take place. 00:54:51.106 --> 00:55:03.597 The waste, you know, the framing of it as wastage, these are jobs that need to be done now, whether the government pays for them or a company that Musk owns does them That's 00:55:03.695 --> 00:55:04.356 but, but that, 00:55:04.487 --> 00:55:05.327 he's talking about. 00:55:05.485 --> 00:55:08.385 no, it's not actually what he's talking about. 00:55:08.465 --> 00:55:10.775 He's not bringing in his people to do it. 00:55:11.056 --> 00:55:20.865 He's actually going to look at how we can streamline process to get rid of employee government employees and make it more efficient, right? 00:55:21.016 --> 00:55:22.795 Look, if you think about a business. 00:55:23.990 --> 00:55:26.311 Especially now with AI, right? 00:55:26.431 --> 00:55:33.630 The, the more streamlined you are, the more efficient the business is, the more success it will have. 00:55:34.121 --> 00:55:42.291 And this is the problem that I have with, particularly labor, is, The success is now bad. 00:55:43.240 --> 00:55:51.041 When you and I grew up, Margaret Thatcher I mean, I can remember growing up and really being quite concerned in the late seventies. 00:55:51.041 --> 00:55:57.735 I was perhaps 12, 13 or whatever really quite concerned about what job I would get when I was 16, 17. 00:55:58.936 --> 00:56:07.126 And then Thatcher came in and she really talked up, you know, we're a we're a a country of shopkeepers and we can do this and dah, dah, dah. 00:56:07.405 --> 00:56:10.916 And it's that, it's that that's missing, it's that positivity. 00:56:11.655 --> 00:56:19.786 And, you know, when you say about the government, And, you know, we could put our trust in government. 00:56:20.405 --> 00:56:25.726 I wouldn't put my trust in any one of those people running that government, any one of those front benches. 00:56:25.936 --> 00:56:27.065 What have they actually done? 00:56:27.985 --> 00:56:28.246 Right. 00:56:28.485 --> 00:56:32.025 So, and the same with a lot of the conservatives as well. 00:56:32.335 --> 00:56:32.795 So 00:56:32.806 --> 00:56:33.806 I'm talking about government. 00:56:34.286 --> 00:56:38.766 The machinery of government rather than, you know, the idea of government rather than party 00:56:39.101 --> 00:56:39.590 Yeah. 00:56:39.931 --> 00:56:48.030 And of course you've got absolutely you've got to have the right people running, The, the, the, the government. 00:56:48.050 --> 00:56:50.501 I mean, and look, you're never going to please everybody all the time. 00:56:50.501 --> 00:56:52.391 I know that in business, you can never get that right. 00:56:52.460 --> 00:56:53.081 It doesn't matter. 00:56:53.150 --> 00:56:53.490 Right. 00:56:53.501 --> 00:57:02.681 So whether you are more right leaning like me or more left leaning, it's not about, it's about whoever it is, it's doing the best they can for, for the country. 00:57:03.050 --> 00:57:10.271 I think that what we're heading for is an absolute disaster under this law, even worse than the Conservatives, because they'll not make it work. 00:57:10.681 --> 00:57:26.501 And I think if, if, if a government came in that tried to massively streamline and go for growth and get everybody positive and put the right things in place for businesses to grow, which this government are not doing, and the last stopped it it made it, you know, they were bad. 00:57:26.925 --> 00:57:27.505 as well. 00:57:27.556 --> 00:57:32.096 And I

mean the red tape, I mean, you run a, you run a business, your own business. 00:57:32.175 --> 00:57:34.335 So you'll have a certain amount of this going on. 00:57:34.695 --> 00:57:36.856 The red tape in my business is horrendous. 00:57:36.856 --> 00:57:39.186 And most of it is stupid, right? 00:57:39.255 --> 00:57:41.076 It's, it doesn't make any sense. 00:57:41.405 --> 00:57:46.396 So, and it's just some bureaucrats that have thought that it makes sense to do. 00:57:46.416 --> 00:57:53.335 And I could give you a whole list of things that, you know, I probably employ about 4 million quids of the people for red tape. 00:57:54.690 --> 00:57:56.911 That is not needed, right? 00:57:57.260 --> 00:58:00.670 Because some somebody not so bright seemed to think that it missed. 00:58:00.670 --> 00:58:10.420 And now obviously, you know, you start with a certain amount of control because you want to try and control things, but it's just gone too far. 00:58:11.081 --> 00:58:13.190 So anyway, maybe we'll get back to golf. 00:58:13.675 --> 00:58:14.606 Should we get back to golf? 00:58:15.175 --> 00:58:31.782 There's a, there's a, I've got, there's a, you know, it's fascinating because it's sort of, there's a question I've got, which is Uh, it's do with live and it's also do with the Ryder Cup because I think your tour, the fame of the people on your tour, quite a lot of it is built by the Ryder Cup. 00:58:31.802 --> 00:58:33.492 I'm a massive fan of the Ryder Cup. 00:58:34.443 --> 00:58:43.293 I remember years, this is going back a long time, when the golden generation, the Faudo Ballesteros, Lange, Lyle generation turned 50. 00:58:43.503 --> 00:58:46.893 And the story was that's going to ignite the seniors tour as was. 00:58:46.902 --> 00:58:47.943 And I remember having conversation. 00:58:47.943 --> 00:58:52.992 It might even have been with David McLaren at that time, but it was, it was the tour between 20 odd years ago. 00:58:53.543 --> 00:58:55.182 And it was weird. 00:58:55.213 --> 00:58:56.913 They all turned 50 at the site. 00:58:56.932 --> 00:59:00.342 They all had the birthday within a couple of months of each other or, you know, within 18 months of each other. 00:59:01.003 --> 00:59:15.882 Um, now the problem, as you know, is live and it's, let's call it the Lee Westwood problem, which is Him, Polta, you know, all of the great sort of stars of the Ryder Cup of the last 20 years. 00:59:16.873 --> 00:59:18.503 They're on the live side, or some of them are. 00:59:19.202 --> 00:59:20.202 What's going to happen? 00:59:20.202 --> 00:59:22.603 How do you see this working itself out? 00:59:22.603 --> 00:59:25.592 Because it's commercially a hit for you, presumably, that they're not going to appear. 00:59:25.746 --> 00:59:34.981 Well, it is, it is a hit and we've had Some quite heated discussions behind the scenes, Between myself and and the leadership in the tour. 00:59:35.391 --> 00:59:42.902 I mean, they're in a very difficult position because, you know, they've got fines to pay and if they don't pay them, they can't let them back in with a membership. 00:59:43.342 --> 00:59:47.512 And, you know, these guys are big draws and a big draw and I want to get them in. 00:59:47.521 --> 00:59:50.952 So it's a, it's a, it's a really difficult position. 00:59:50.952 --> 00:59:57.061 I'm just hoping that I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm trying to get a way around it and I've come up with some creative ways to be able to do that. 00:59:57.541 --> 00:59:59.322 Not quite got it there at the moment. 00:59:59.331 --> 01:00:07.561 So, you know, but I want a Westwood and a Poulter and a Stenson and Garcia as they come up and a McDowell and all of those to be playing on this tour. 01:00:08.061 --> 01:00:12.021 And obviously I want to get them and not have them play on, on the champions tour. 01:00:12.032 --> 01:00:19.693 So, And, you know, as we build the prize monies as we're doing you know, it would be great to have them because they are a draw and they, they're important. 01:00:19.722 --> 01:00:23.583 And you know, and it's, it's a bit like anything, isn't it? 01:00:23.592 --> 01:00:29.112 If you don't have your star players, people aren't going to be interested and they are star players and we need to get them. 01:00:29.123 --> 01:00:35.023 So, you know, I'm working very closely with Guy and the team to try and find a solution to that. 01:00:35.282 --> 01:00:39.373 But I think a lot of it's going to come out in the wash when this whole deal gets ratified. 01:00:40.297 --> 01:00:43.172 What's your sort of ideal outcome of this? 01:00:43.311 --> 01:00:44.331 Because, you know, we're in this pandemic. 01:00:44.331 --> 01:00:47.342 It will presumably it resolve. 01:00:47.342 --> 01:00:49.891 And you're a guy that's always looking for the future. 01:00:49.891 --> 01:00:49.891 what's, 01:00:50.045 --> 01:00:50.606 yeah. 01:00:50.706 --> 01:00:51.635 Well, the ideal? 01:00:51.635 --> 01:01:11.485 outcome is that they, you know, that they create this, this, this company together and that they just, uh, uh, allow these players to play pretty much where they want and mean, Liv are going to tie them into that, but probably you're going to end up with in, in a few years when they do that, that Liv might not have be what it is in that format. 01:01:11.525 --> 01:01:15.835 There's probably just going to be this world tour and then they're going to go after the income like I'm doing really. 01:01:16.076 --> 01:01:24.405 Although I'm segmented to just this area, you know, so, so yeah, I mean, my preferred outcome is that sooner rather than later, they get it sorted. 01:01:25.842 --> 01:01:26.902 I remember having a conversation. 01:01:27.021 --> 01:01:30.541 There's an American question about the champions tour and your relationship to it. 01:01:30.541 --> 01:01:32.081 I don't, I don't know what it is. 01:01:32.541 --> 01:01:34.501 Is it competitor, enemy, frenemy? 01:01:34.672 --> 01:01:35.012 I don't know. 01:01:35.012 --> 01:01:41.072

And I had, I remember having a similar conversation with the LET about the LPGA and you know, that it feels like analogous to that. 01:01:41.300 --> 01:01:41.525 yeah. 01:01:41.525 --> 01:01:53.996 So the uh, uh, yeah, the leadership out there, Miller, we work closely with him to try and make sure that if we're putting a big event on and we want some of his players, we're, we're, we're working in that area. 01:01:53.996 --> 01:01:58.226 So they they, in theory, aren't supposed to come into any of our regions. 01:01:58.226 --> 01:02:03.396 They came into Morocco Which and they were looking at another one and we weren't very happy about that. 01:02:03.396 --> 01:02:04.585 So we managed to block that. 01:02:04.606 --> 01:02:11.425 So we are working closely with them to make sure that they are where they are and we are where we are. 01:02:11.425 --> 01:02:17.126 But as you know, now we're moving way more out, out of Europe, you know, we're in Vietnam and. 01:02:18.030 --> 01:02:19.291 India and all over the place. 01:02:19.300 --> 01:02:24.911 So we're building, we're building the brand globally outside of the U S and in fact, you know, we've even talked to them. 01:02:24.911 --> 01:02:27.920 We had an approach from Vegas to be able to put a tournament on there. 01:02:27.920 --> 01:02:33.090 And in fairness to Miller and the team out there, they were, they were okay with us having a tournament out there. 01:02:33.590 --> 01:02:39.731 Well, I, I, I mean, look, the, Yeah, I suppose, I suppose there is a shared audience? 01:02:39.731 --> 01:02:40.521 to a degree. 01:02:40.570 --> 01:02:44.931 I mean, as you probably know, we are, we, I think there's the highlight show as well. 01:02:44.931 --> 01:02:49.030 So it's, other than the majors, you've not got live TV. 01:02:49.030 --> 01:02:50.280 So, Yeah. 01:02:50.280 --> 01:03:00.460 So there's, there's perhaps in Europe is not as watched as where we are because socially we're miles bigger than what they are, but as you know, they've got some great players on that champions tour. 01:03:00.460 --> 01:03:02.721 And my aim is to get those players back. 01:03:02.791 --> 01:03:07.021 So, you know, Montgomery, for example we've got him back for the next season. 01:03:07.210 --> 01:03:13.670 So, and, you know, we'll be doing that bit by bit and trying to pull off who we can to work, to be outside. 01:03:14.382 --> 01:03:14.692 Yeah. 01:03:14.791 --> 01:03:16.242 I love Monty, one of my favorites. 01:03:16.641 --> 01:03:19.668 The, you mentioned Rick Shields earlier, just to finish on, what was that all about? 01:03:19.668 --> 01:03:21.867 Because I saw it was, he was moaning about you. 01:03:22.353 --> 01:03:24.882 And then he was, and we had him on recently. 01:03:24.882 --> 01:03:27.072 So I'm just interested in what that was. 01:03:27.072 --> 01:03:31.873 It was to do with a claims about YouTube sort of size of audience. 01:03:32.432 --> 01:03:32.663 Yeah. 01:03:32.663 --> 01:03:41.222 So basically, as I said to earlier, you know, my, for me, sales and marketing is is how you operate a business. 01:03:41.222 --> 01:03:41.512 Yeah. 01:03:41.532 --> 01:03:44.753 So, you know, you've got to be able to market to get your consumers. 01:03:45.163 --> 01:03:54.802 And we had a formula working on YouTube, which was basically whenever we went to a tournament, we spent money to boost the posts. 01:03:55.182 --> 01:04:01.733 And on the back of that, we got subscribers and I Yeah, we're going up at quite a rate. 01:04:02.293 --> 01:04:07.793 And, and I looked at it and I, I looked at how many, all the tours around the world. 01:04:08.882 --> 01:04:15.152 And it occurred to me that at some point with this formula, we're going to, we're going to go past everybody. 01:04:15.833 --> 01:04:21.693 So I said to Keith, who's the CMO, I said, how much do we need to spend to get up past them? 01:04:21.742 --> 01:04:25.202 Anyway, we got up there to number one. 01:04:25.853 --> 01:04:30.748 So On YouTube, we are the largest subscribed to audience in golf. 01:04:31.057 --> 01:04:33.047 So that was the PR that was put out. 01:04:33.557 --> 01:04:40.827 Anyway, Rick picked it up and he said, you know, he started to say this is this is bots. 01:04:40.838 --> 01:05:10.628 He didn't say the word bot, but he basically said that we'd somehow found a way to basically not have a real audience and his proof for that was that the the engagement wasn't at the same level and I think, you know, the point and he was quite disparaging about it and at the end of his little thing he said And funny enough, he didn't even know who we were to a degree, even though he'd been invited to play on a tournament on the Legends Tour at the JCB so, which he did do. 01:05:10.987 --> 01:05:15.998 So, so he's quite disparaging, and and without the real facts. 01:05:16.418 --> 01:05:27.978 So, he said at the end, well, come on you know, somebody from the Legends Tour, come on and and explain, you know, So we contacted him, no response. 01:05:28.447 --> 01:05:30.918 So in the end I thought, well, yeah, I'll just put something out. 01:05:30.938 --> 01:05:37.688 So, you know, the reality is if you have an organic audience, like he's built, it's going to be more engaged. 01:05:38.367 --> 01:05:41.847 But just because I've paid for an audience doesn't mean it's not real. 01:05:42.387 --> 01:06:06.163 And the point I was making is that it's a little bit like tell me any business in the world of the maybe social organic where You basically open your shop and do no marketing and succeed because I don't know many right and and that was the point, you know, so So I gave my two penneth and he gave his and a little bit of a spat 01:06:08.208 --> 01:06:09.318 Oh, all good for business. 01:06:09.418 --> 01:06:21.327 What's the percentage of your mark, your point about marketing is comes back on this podcast a lot just how low, and this is not, this is beyond golf, but sports rights holders generally spend on marketing and

you can define marketing in lots of different ways, obviously. 01:06:21.327 --> 01:06:29.507 And, but something like your core business, you know, an insurance business, what sort of percentage would a revenue would you spend on marketing? 01:06:29.507 --> 01:06:30.378 What you would define as 01:06:30.722 --> 01:06:35.643 yeah, we'll spend 10 12 percent so we'll be spending 60 70 million this year 01:06:36.538 --> 01:06:41.077 And, lots of sports rights holders, even the big ones are low single figures in terms of 01:06:41.842 --> 01:06:42.172 Yeah. 01:06:42.652 --> 01:07:00.112 And, and, and that's been the thing with this, where I'm trying to build an audience, In golf without having, you know, it's not like, yes, we, we sell the spots for people to play and all of that, but it's not like there's a direct correlation where you spend this money and you get this income. 01:07:00.503 --> 01:07:03.092 What you're doing is you spend this money, build this audience. 01:07:03.112 --> 01:07:06.132 And then at some point you're going to get the income through sponsorship. 01:07:06.523 --> 01:07:07.556 So it's a, yeah. 01:07:08.208 --> 01:07:10.128 You know, it's a slow burn. 01:07:10.128 --> 01:07:12.047 It's not like anything I've ever done before. 01:07:12.447 --> 01:07:13.807 it's less cause And, effect. 01:07:13.887 --> 01:07:17.478 there's an intangible there, which is bigger than would be in 01:07:17.722 --> 01:07:19.271 there is. 01:07:19.271 --> 01:07:27.422 And, and, you know, what the legends tour has that the other tours don't have is that my Stayshore million people. 01:07:27.692 --> 01:07:31.711 So, you know, when we talk to sponsors, we talk about. 01:07:32.672 --> 01:07:57.452 How we can engage with you and particularly if you take tourist boards because all of my customers are traveling You know when we talk to tourist boards like the one in Barbados, for example You know, we'll send out information about Barbados to all of our Stayshore customers and a normal tour can't do that So the ecosystem works, you know, I can put these things together to make it a little bit better if that makes sense. 01:07:57.768 --> 01:07:59.697 You've sort of created a CRM 01:07:59.922 --> 01:08:00.411 Yes 01:08:00.538 --> 01:08:03.967 the core within and, and applied it. 01:08:04.077 --> 01:08:04.927 That's really interesting. 01:08:05.306 --> 01:08:06.217 I've tried, yeah. 01:08:07.858 --> 01:08:09.427 Listen, Ryan, thank you so much for this. 01:08:09.427 --> 01:08:09.978 I really enjoyed it. 01:08:10.257 --> 01:08:12.447 I like that we, we can disagree amiably. 01:08:14.806 --> 01:08:16.646 Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, 01:08:16.858 --> 01:08:17.318 luck with it. 01:08:17.347 --> 01:08:18.488 Good luck with the tour. 01:08:18.528 --> 01:08:29.118 It's a really great story and it's a really interesting sort of thing that you're doing and it, because it's a lot of it is because it's just so, it's just different than, than the normal conversations that you would have. 01:08:29.318 --> 01:08:30.757 So, uh, yeah, 01:08:30.827 --> 01:08:31.277 yeah, 01:08:31.797 --> 01:08:34.707 fingers crossed with the, uh, with the live thing. 01:08:34.707 --> 01:08:36.318 And as that, as that emerges, 01:08:36.481 --> 01:08:38.992 All right, well look, I've enjoyed chatting to you, so thanks for your time. 01:08:39.927 --> 01:08:40.283 Cheers.