Pełna transkrypcja odcinka Is Eastern Orthodoxy the One True Church? Apostolic Succession, Unity, and Schism

So obviously we have superior teaching, that's obviously uh a purer synthesis of the patristic witness. 00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:40.399 Um, and even if that were a debate of sorts, which, you know, from an Orthodox perspective, it's not, it's quite clear in their mind. 00:05:40.399 --> 00:05:48.240 Uh, we also, on top of that, have this continuity of office that makes that all of these things were uh obviously preserved together. 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:55.279 So I think that's a pretty uh that's a pretty fair summary of of how they would explain themselves to be the one true church. 00:05:55.680 --> 00:06:13.920 Yeah, and uh I do think that um it does make sense why they when they attacked like Reformed theology and Reformed theologians in particular, it does make sense to me why they have a little bit of animosity, at least from my perception, towards the Reformed tradition. 00:06:13.920 --> 00:06:16.160 And the Reformed tradition is highly Augustinian. 00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:24.000 Like Phoebe Warfield talks about, you know, the Reformation was nothing other than Augustinian Augustinianism come to its rights. 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:29.920 Um so like with a little bit of Luther, then obviously, you know, John Calvin for sure. 00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:40.560 Um it like what what would you say is like one of the biggest things that like Protestants in particular like misunderstand about like the Apostolic Succession claim? 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:45.439 Because it's not really a a claim Protestants make quite as much. 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:53.040 Um it maybe with you know Anglicanism a little bit, but it's how they understand it is quite different. 00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:55.680 Um so can you maybe speak to that a little bit? 00:06:56.240 --> 00:06:59.439 What what do Protestants misunderstand about apostolic succession? 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:09.199 Yeah, especially if coming from like an Eastern tradition, like it when they hear it in their minds, like what do you see kind of common trends of what Protestants frequently misunderstand about it? 00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:11.920 Well, uh it depends. 00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:25.600 I mean, if if by Protestant you mean just anything that's you know, even down to uh the most baseline non-denominationalism, um, at that point you're gonna have a misunderstanding of what it even is and why it's even important or necessary. 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:33.120 Um, and some people will have a very, very loose grasp on the continuity of office and the necessity of that. 00:07:33.120 --> 00:07:35.759 So that's perhaps one misunderstanding. 00:07:35.759 --> 00:07:42.480 Um, but you know, how much do we want to consider that as part of pro Protestantism proper is a whole discussion. 00:07:42.480 --> 00:07:45.279 So, you know, that's that's one area of misunderstanding. 00:07:45.279 --> 00:07:55.759 But I think a different area of misunderstanding uh amongst more confessional Protestants is that it's uh it's an untenable position for a number of reasons. 00:07:55.759 --> 00:08:04.879 And I remember uh realizing that there used to be uh a website called the The Calvinist International, which um they're gone for some reason. 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:05.759 I don't know why. 00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:07.759 Um it was a fantastic website. 00:08:07.759 --> 00:08:12.240 Um, you know, I I I've had to archive their articles. 00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:25.040 Um but there was one written by, and it was mostly Anglicans for some reason, but there was one written by an Anglican, um I think he was a deacon at the time, and he introduced an argument that I'd never heard of. 00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:29.199 And I remember for me at that time, this was I actually didn't even didn't even understand it. 00:08:29.199 --> 00:08:32.799 I had to write to him and ask him, like, can you walk me through like a like I'm an idiot? 00:08:32.799 --> 00:08:34.320 What are you what are you trying to say? 00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:45.840 And now I've heard that argument a thousand times and I've realized that that's become more of, and I'll get to the argument in a second, I I've understood that that's become more widely talked about because it's so poorly understood. 00:08:45.840 --> 00:09:13.840 And that is that whereas apostolic succession sounds very compelling and very convincing, uh scripturally and historically it's actually pretty difficult to tie down uh very clearly, because while there is a continuity of office and there would be what we would call a presbyterial succession, surely, scripture does obviously teach a laying on of hands with a laying on of hands with a laying on of hands, with some debate about, you know, can laymen perform the sacraments and things like that? 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:21.600 Generally speaking, that is something that has always been understood in Christianity and across all confessional traditions is also maintained. 00:09:21.600 --> 00:09:29.759 The real distinction, the real problem or the rub becomes, is there an ontological difference between a bishop and a presbyter? 00:09:29.759 --> 00:09:37.279 Is that something that is simply for the ben essay of the church, so just for the well-being of the church, or for the essay, for the essence of the church? 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:45.840 You know, wherever you don't have a bishop, you don't have a church, or a bishop, you know, in that particular uh apostolic lineage. 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:53.519 I think a lot of Protestants they get very overwhelmed and they just assume that, well, they've done their homework and we haven't, so they must be right. 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:55.840 The reality is far more complex than that. 00:09:55.840 --> 00:10:06.480 Um when you go through the New Testament, you do see a near interchangeability between the office of Episcopas and Presbyteras, of bishop and presbyter. 00:10:06.480 --> 00:10:08.639 They are essentially the same office. 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:14.240 Um that becomes very pro

and this was the argument that I had read in that original article that I had never heard before. 00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:23.279 Um and that becomes problematic because it makes it at the at the very least less obvious that then you could even have an apostolic succession. 00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:23.759 Right? 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:32.159 Because if the whole idea is that it's the apostles who laid hands on bishops and then those bishops carry that lineage forward, that's an assertion that needs to be proven, and I think seldom is. 00:10:32.159 --> 00:10:55.360 Um also one of the core elements of that claim is that not only is there this apostolic succession, but that there's also uh a pentarchy that grounds the whole church in five holy sees, because it's the those cities where the apostles specifically were bishops themselves and started that that apostolic office going forward. 00:10:55.360 --> 00:10:59.120 Well, that has also been challenged in the uh in the literature. 00:10:59.120 --> 00:11:11.759 So for example, I always for I always forget if it's Dvorak or Dvorkin, but um there was a Catholic priest in the fifties um who wrote a book on that, and of the five holy seas, Constantinople's one of them. 00:11:11.759 --> 00:11:15.039 Obviously, most people have heard of the ecumenical patriarch. 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:37.519 And he proposes a thesis that has been debated, uh, but I I think is a compelling thesis, that uh this idea of the apostolic origins of the Constantinople and see is uh kind of an anachronistic thing that's back into history, most more so for political reasons. 00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:44.399 It's not necessarily something that is just obvious from the historical record that there was that lineage of apostolic succession there. 00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:56.159 Uh and funny enough, even if you don't want to believe me as a Protestant, I've I've heard some Coptic Christians make that similar argument because they want to defend the exclusivity of the Alexandrian See, but uh challenge the Constantinoplean See. 00:11:56.159 --> 00:12:05.039 Other books like that have been written about the Roman See, uh Peter Lamp's book from uh the title escapes me from Valentinius to something. 00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:10.480 Uh but anyway, these these are things that I think Protestants generally don't know. 00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:13.440 They just sort of assume that other people know better. 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:15.519 Um they don't know where to look. 00:12:15.519 --> 00:12:26.480 But um the I I would say the biggest misunderstanding is that this this is a robust area of discussion that has been thoroughly studied from a Protestant perspective as well. 00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:36.320 And I think we could all agree on a presbyterial succession, but it is too um presumptuous to just concede the point on apostolic succession. 00:12:37.519 --> 00:12:55.200 Yeah, I think the role of bishop, um I mean you don't really quite from and going off of what you had said and from what I've kind of looked into, I mean, it seems like it's you're hard pressed to find uh the role of like a three-tier role in the church of bishop. 00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:58.879 Um, you know, like you said it's presbyter, and then you said the other one was deacon, correct? 00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:00.480 Yeah. 00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:07.039 Like I don't necessarily think it's uh inappropriate to have a three-tier system. 00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:20.559 But I also think too, like, from what you're saying is that like I mean you can't it's hard to have apostolic succession in a line of bishops when the role of bishop didn't even exist in the apostolic age, right? 00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:39.279 And kind of going back to what you said about like with Eastern Orthodoxy with their perception of Roman Catholicism, I know William Webster's I've read some of his works about like um the Roman See, and you know, from my understanding it was a little bit more of that they had that the Bishop of Rome had a primacy of honor, not of jurisdiction. 00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:43.120 And I do understand the Eastern position on that. 00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:51.759 And um you know, that kind of like the first among equals, I think that that's the way Anglicanism would probably see the Archbishop of Canterbury. 00:13:51.759 --> 00:14:03.840 Not really sure how they would view that now, since um, you know, just how radical the Archbishop of Canterbury and, you know, some of them have become at kind of top-down. 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:17.759 Um but so I wanted to touch on a point that you had brought up about like with apostolic success succession, because you say that Eastern Orthodoxy basically presents it that not only are they preserving the office, but they're also preserving the doctrine. 00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:31.759 Do you come to find that just because they have that I don't want to use the term magic line, but like just because they have that line that that isn't automatic that the their doctrine is going to be true? 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:46.080 Or do you feel like they're actually saying, oh no, some of our bishops, some of our priests they can make mistakes to the point where they become almost no longer apostolic because the doctrine is no longer apostolic, if that makes sense. 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:50.080 I've not seen a lot of that. 00:14:50.080 --> 00:15:01.440 I I've seen an enormous amount of um I've I've seen a tremendous amount of explaining away any deficiencies that you may find in a bishop or a patriarch. 00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:13.519 Um and a relentless desire to safeguard, you know, any criticism f from their bishops or from their patriarchs or other historical figures. 00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:21.279 Now, that's not to say that they believe that they're like infallible, and you know, it's it's it's always a constant moving goalpost as well. 00:15:21.279 --> 00:15:30.720 You know, you you could find some quote and say, well, you

know, that was a local council, that wasn't an ecumenical council, or well, that was just a private opinion, that wasn't you know public teaching or anything like that. 00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:34.960 Um, but I would say that ultimately, yeah, it's two sides of the same coin, right? 00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:39.279 We have correct teaching because we have correct office, we have correct office because we have correct teaching. 00:15:39.279 --> 00:15:43.279 You know, those those things are distinguishable, but they're not ultimately separate in their mind. 00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:44.000 Okay. 00:15:44.000 --> 00:16:00.559 Yeah, and I think that that's where someone who has more of an episcopal structure and say Protestantism, Anglicanism would be would say that, you know, the apostolic succession is only as good as the apostolic doctrine and right administration of the sacraments is maintained. 00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:15.919 Um so the other question I wanted to ask like, do you find that there's particular passages that Eastern Orthodox people will use to substantiate the claims of the episcopacy and the apostolic succession argument? 00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:31.919 Um I mean, I've seen I've watched several videos by Eastern Orthodox, um, you know, from Father Josiah Trenham to I think it's Moses Moses McPherson, and I haven't really seen too much of um, at least when it comes to scriptural evidence, to substantiate the claims. 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:35.759 And I was curious, and that's not to say that they don't use scripture. 00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:38.399 I'm just curious as to what those might be. 00:16:54.639 --> 00:17:05.119 But then what whatever else scripture says about continuity of other offices, it clearly delineates a continuity of the apostolic office as superior and separate. 00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:07.759 That's kind of the main claim that's made. 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:10.319 What what would they appeal to for that? 00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:15.119 One place, for example, would be Acts chapter one, uh, verse 15 to 26. 00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:26.880 And I'm not going to read the whole thing, but basically if you recall, this is uh Judas has killed himself, and now they need to replace him. 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:31.519 And I will actually maybe read part of it, uh, I have it pulled up here. 00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:36.240 So beginning in verse 15 of Acts chapter one, and I'll offer some of my own commentary as we go. 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:51.920 At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren, a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together, and said, Brethren, the scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. 00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:55.599 For he was counted among us and received his share in the ministry. 00:17:55.599 --> 00:17:59.759 Now this man acquired a field of the price of his wickedness, etcetera, etcetera. 00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:10.160 Um then verse 20 for it is written in the book of Psalms, let him so let his homestead be made desolate, and let no one dwell in it, and let another man take his office. 00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:46.319 And so they would say that Judas as an apostle, he died, he needs to be replaced as an apostle, therefore this gives us an understanding that uh Matthias is that first scriptural uh example of apostolic succession, and that argument is uh further buttressed by the fact that in verse 20, when it says, and let another man take his office, the word for office there is episcopane, episcopacy, and that is a uh um a a f uh a quotation of Psalm 109. 00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:54.720 Another thing that they will uh that they could use to try to make a scriptural case for it, and then I'll offer some of my own thoughts. 00:18:54.720 --> 00:19:05.039 One would be Acts 15, that the apostles obviously have uh a preeminence of authority there, so they are there alongside other elders, but it's the apostles and the elders. 00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:12.000 And then when they speak, they say it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us, but the us again, there's a distinction within within the us. 00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:20.400 And then also when Paul instructs Timothy and Titus to appoint elders in every city, he's kind of placing them above the elders. 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:26.240 So you appoint elders in every city, so clearly you are above the elders in some sense. 00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:40.559 So they would see a distinction there between presbyter and bishop, and then obviously there are some bishops that uh there are bishops that are connected to the apostles in the same way that Matthias replaces Judas as an apostle. 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:43.519 Um so that's that's the basic argument. 00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:47.279 Um I find that argument problematic for a few reasons, though. 00:19:47.279 --> 00:20:05.039 So, first of all, when you read in Acts chapter one, and this is kind of why I wanted to read that extended portion, um Peter is saying in verse 16 uh the that sorry, is it verse 16? 00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:06.240 Let me just find it here. 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:18.079 Um But the the wider context of Acts chapter 1 is not necessarily that they're setting up an office structure, right? 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:21.839 It's not a prescription about how things are supposed to go going forward. 00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:36.000 The idea is that they need somebody who was also an eyewitness to Jesus and his ministry to pick up the slack basically of Judas who obviously forfeited his office, right? 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:50.000 Um and so this becomes important because that's you know that that's then how he uh that's then why he uses scripture to buttress his argument because he says verse 21, sorry, I just uh found it here. 00:20:50.000 --> 00:21:06.319 Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that

the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning with the baptism of John, etc., he's saying for our specific purposes, it is necessary that we replace Judas's position. 00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:10.559 Not that this he's not saying anything more than that. 00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:15.119 You you you you have to extrapolate that, and it's not obvious. 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:15.519 Yeah. 00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:22.079 As for the differences between the apostles and the rest of the elders in Acts 15, well, okay, sure, right? 00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:28.799 But find me a Christian that doesn't understand that the apostles had some kind of preeminent authority over even other elders. 00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:37.119 You know, whether or not you take a a bishop presbyter distinction or not, obviously the uh the apostles had a s a significant authority. 00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:48.079 But Paul in Ephesians tells us, number one, that the apostles are the foundation of the church, and you only raise a found you only lay a foundation once. 00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:53.359 But then also he says later on, I believe in First Corinthians, you know, are not all apostles, are they? 00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:53.920 Right? 00:21:53.920 --> 00:22:17.200 The scripture also tells us that the apostolic office had a particular use that uh Was to establish the authority of Christ's ministry and teaching, which was why it was so important that these be people that witnessed and essentially partook of Jesus' ministry while he was still alive, something that obviously can't be true after a certain point in history. 00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:35.279 And as for uh the as for the fact that Titus and Timothy are uh helping to appoint elders in every city, again, I think can simply be seen as an extension of that work of the apost of what Paul is doing in his apostolic office to ensure that these things get going. 00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:39.680 Once they've gotten going, there are other passages in scripture that take over. 00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:44.960 Um, like for example, the interchangeability of the term episcopas and presbuteras. 00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:51.839 Um, once you've gotten that that idea going, now going forward, there are other passages that are prescriptive. 00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:56.400 Whereas I think they take descriptive passages and they make them prescriptive. 00:22:56.400 --> 00:23:01.759 And so that's their argument, but that's ultimately why I think it's uh not a compelling one. 00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:09.359 Yeah, and the replacement of Judas, I think, when it comes to I mean, the importance of the number 12, right? 00:23:09.359 --> 00:23:22.319 Like, cause in the Old Testament, because of the 12 tribes of Israel, and then I also believe in the book of Revelation, aren't there um twelve elders, or is no, is it 24 elders around the throne? 00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:24.720 Um so you know, 12 and 12. 00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:49.839 Um not only that, but uh this is one of the things I'd have difficulty trying to understand where um so since I'm more of a cessationist, uh you know, I uh not only think that the sign gifts have ceased, not that the Holy Spirit stopped working, but that the distinguishable sign gifts that the apostles had to verify their office, that those have ceased along with the apostolic office. 00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:56.400 And going back to what you were saying about um sorry, I lost my train of thought. 00:23:56.400 --> 00:24:03.920 Um well yeah, so not only have the sign gifts uh ceased, but also the apostolic role has ceased, right? 00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:22.640 So this is why when you have um like if apostolic succession in the sense of, hey, we're we need to replace this twelfth guy, well, wouldn't you think that in present day, whether it's Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy, that you would have twelve patriarchs that carry on those roles? 00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:28.720 Because here you have in Rome, you have the Bishop of Rome being, you know, uh the successor of Peter. 00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:31.920 I'm wondering why don't we see a successor of John? 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:33.279 You know what I mean? 00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:46.880 So logically I think that there seems to be variations on how that can be understood about with apostolic succession, because how much authority do they have, right? 00:24:46.880 --> 00:25:01.200 Because if we're supposed to appeal to the apostolic witness, because as Protestants, I think that I think we start with doctrine first, and they obviously seem like they start with the apostolic succession line and then move their way to doctrine. 00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:04.559 We have the correct doctrine because we have the right apostolic succession. 00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:14.960 Where it's like, I think as Protestants, our mind goes to we look at the doctrine first, and for us that would validate whether or not they're in line with the apostles. 00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:23.519 Um not that there's this um perfect line that's never been broken, as some might say. 00:25:23.519 --> 00:25:30.720 Um I think that this is why Protestantism, from my mind, is set up very fairly well for missionary work, right? 00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:37.519 Because a missionary that's Baptist, that's uh Anglican, that's Presbyterian, they can go to a foreign place. 00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:42.880 And uh recently I was watching on um trying to think which podcast it was. 00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:45.519 Um I'll think of it. 00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:56.319 But basically, these two young guys, their father was a missionary, and he went to this foreign land where they had not had any interaction with basically the outside world. 00:25:56.319 --> 00:26:11.680 Um, they practiced like minor forms of like cannibalism, and but basically over time he familiarized himself with them, familiarized himself and learned the language, and then translated the Bible into English, or not English, I'm sorry, from his

language to theirs. 00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:33.119 I think that Protestantism is set up very well to take an account for these things because once the people learn about the gospel, come to Christ, are drawn by the Holy Spirit, and then uh become converted, and then obviously the preaching of the word and the administration of the sacraments, we as Protestants can sit there and say that, oh yeah, that's a valid church over there. 00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:35.759 I mean, they do things differently, they have their own culture. 00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:56.079 Um, and obviously, you know, you have the particular uh uh things that you have to be careful of, like say in South America, you know, when Roman Catholicism started making converts, that's uh some of the paganism that was already prevalent in South America found its way into Roman Catholicism. 00:26:56.079 --> 00:27:16.480 And it's kind of like a balancing act because uh from I know we're not talking about Roman Catholicism, but like from Rome's perspective, it's like how much do you want to be nitpicky about certain things and how how much do you allow from the present culture to influence the church that's there that you've established, right? 00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:23.359 Um, but basically my whole point was that I think um Protestantism is set up very well to be ecumenical. 00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:50.160 Um so one of the things I had was um so like when Paul himself, like can you give examples maybe in scripture for us that like when Paul is warning about um false teachers, does he generally try to point people to an apostolic line or apostolic succession in any way, or does he point people to uh apostolic doctrine? 00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:54.319 Well, he definitely points people to apostolic doctrine. 00:27:54.319 --> 00:28:09.680 Um, you know, he says, for example, um, I'm gonna try to find the the language, but in 1 Corinthians 13, like if if if even I, right, or or uh uh if uh let me pull it up here one second, I want to quote it correctly. 00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:18.880 Um but he he does give uh he does place the preeminence on the on the teaching and scriptures witness. 00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:22.799 Um this is not working here for me. 00:28:22.799 --> 00:28:32.799 Uh but um well, I guess he's speaking in terms of love, but nevertheless, um the the I think the point sticks. 00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:46.799 So uh talking about if I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, if I have the gift of prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge and have all faith, right, but I have not not love, if I if I do all these things, but I don't have love, right? 00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:54.640 Uh or Galatians, sorry, I had in my mind uh mixed up mixed up that with Galatians, but they're ultimately making the same point. 00:28:54.640 --> 00:28:59.359 Um if I have all of these things but I don't have love, it values nothing, right? 00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:08.000 Um and you can you can replace some of that I think with if I have the correct office, if I you know, if I if I have the right bishopric, but I don't have love. 00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:21.759 Um and I think that's why they they Eastern Orthodox can get very defensive at times about um about their their patriarchs and about their their bishops um and try to defend them from all any and all scandal, right? 00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:30.160 Because the words of scripture would seem to be very clear that none of these things are good for anything ultimately, if uh if it's not an office or a ministry that's rooted in love. 00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:37.119 Um but in Galatians, right, even if I were an angel were to come to you and and to give you another gospel, let him let him be anathema. 00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:42.480 Um we see in Revelation that you know your your lampstand can be taken out. 00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:47.599 Um and these were old churches that we would consider apostolic, but they're not around anymore. 00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:51.599 In fact, those cities are not around anymore in uh modern-day Turkey. 00:29:51.599 --> 00:29:56.559 So I think it's pretty clear what what is preeminent for Paul. 00:29:56.559 --> 00:30:00.640 Um, and that's why I said that, you know, making that distinction earlier. 00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:13.440 I I don't know where you're at in your journey with respect to Anglicanism, but that is a pretty common uh distinction that they make, and I think it's a very good one, the difference between the essay and the ben essay of the church. 00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:13.839 Right? 00:30:13.839 --> 00:30:20.319 The essay of the church, what what makes the church the church is that it is in obedience to Christ. 00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:31.039 And Christ taught us how to live, and Christ taught us the way of salvation, and you know, Christ taught us our fundamental need as humans and what the solution to that is. 00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:36.960 And so when you're preaching the true gospel, um that is enough for salvation, right? 00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:39.359 Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:44.480 But then there are these other questions of the ben essay of the church, of the well-being of the church. 00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:53.599 And so it's not a dichotomy, like as Protestants, we don't say it's an either or but we say that one of them one of them uh leads the other, right? 00:30:53.599 --> 00:31:15.759 So if I have the right office, let's say, but I obviously have a ministry that's devoid of love, or is introducing things that are obviously so contrary to scripture, I don't use the my understanding of the authority of the office, which by the way, where you're gonna where you're gonna get that understanding of the of the authority of that office, that becomes a whole separate discussion. 00:31:15.759 --> 00:31:22.079 To then massage scripture into saying something that perhaps it just obviously isn't. 00:31:22.079

--> 00:31:28.160 Either scripture speaks clearly against it or it has nothing to say on that matter in the way that you're proposing it. 00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:32.079 Um that's that's ultimately backwards, right? 00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:40.319 Um now again, like I said, they would probably see that as two sides of the same coin, whereas we would see that as uh a fundamental inversion. 00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:47.680 And so um that that's that's a a far more interesting conversation, I think, than uh is often had. 00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:50.000 Yeah, yeah. 00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:54.079 Well, real quick too, I wanted to touch on something you had said, made me think of this. 00:31:54.079 --> 00:32:09.119 So with Judas actually uh being you know son of perdition from the beginning, um, it's not that he was elect, you know, he was saved and then un you know not saved, as some might claim, which I've heard you know, people make arguments that way. 00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:42.480 Um so just by the mere fact that he had an apostolic role, and then when you have ab apostolic succession, if you have someone in his role, you know, if it if it translates down throughout history, then it would logically make sense that someone who is down the line, and if we take their word about the apostolic succession line, then it w I think it would logically follow that, oh, so he defected, you know, he wasn't a true um Christ follower. 00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:45.200 You know, he appeared, you know, what does Paul say? 00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:47.599 You know, they they went out from us because they were not of us. 00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:49.839 Had they been of us, they would have remained with us. 00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:51.599 I believe that that was Paul. 00:32:51.599 --> 00:33:01.279 Um but one of the things uh that I wanted to bring up that I thought was that I had not thought about before until I watched one of your videos was about schism. 00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:14.960 So and uh with schism, it's really interesting because we always view it in our minds that uh since we're always letting the institution be the one who um makes the bold claims, right? 00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:19.119 And then we're the ones that have to counteract those claims. 00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:22.960 So if an institution, can an institution itself be schismatic? 00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:24.000 That's that's the question. 00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:25.440 What are you what are your thoughts? 00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:30.559 Because we always in our mind we always have it that oh no, the ones that leave are the schismatics. 00:33:31.519 --> 00:33:35.200 Well, um it it's uh it's not an either or. 00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:41.759 Um now I I'm not gonna resolve the the the final word on the operation of reformation here. 00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:55.200 Um you know what I what I'm trying to do is to give an answer that completely bypasses that debate, not because I don't have an opinion on it, but just because I don't want

one half of that conversation to just exclude everything I'm saying. 00:33:55.200 --> 00:34:07.440 Um But I think the video that you're referring to, I was making a point that, like I said, is a point that you could make regardless of where where you land on this, and that is that schism is a two-way street. 00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:12.639 So what I'm saying is that there there are people that leave that are schismatics. 00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:14.639 That's certainly the case. 00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:17.760 Um whether or not they were forced out. 00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:30.719 But even when they're forced out, uh or even if they were not necessarily, that doesn't mean that the all that the alternative side was not also fomenting schism. 00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:31.760 Right. 00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:39.280 So I think of something like for our purposes talking about Eastern Orthodoxy, something like the Russian Orthodox Church. 00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:48.719 Um this is perhaps something that we can get into later when we talk about the the whole you know unity argument for Eastern Orthodoxy. 00:34:48.719 --> 00:35:10.159 But what happened in the 1920s was with the arrival of communism in Russia, there was the perception, rightly or wrongly, again, uh right, it's not that that even matters for the purposes of this discussion, that the Russian Orthodox Church had fallen under the sway of a god-hating government. 00:35:10.159 --> 00:35:14.559 And that came to be known as the heresy of Sergianism. 00:35:14.559 --> 00:35:32.719 And by mere virtue of that fact, there were those who felt like they had to flee, you know, for their life and for the purity of the church, and they ultimately ended up in the US and formally started something called Rokor, the Russian Orthodox Church outside of Russia. 00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:33.760 Right? 00:35:33.760 --> 00:35:49.039 So if you want to be a purist about it, you could say, Well, worse things have happened, which by the way, the Bolsheviks killed more Christians than the Roman Empire, so I don't know if that's even true, but you know, that notwithstanding. 00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:51.360 But you could say, Well, worse things have happened. 00:35:51.360 --> 00:36:07.519 So the only correct thing to do would be to stay there and to suffer for the gospel and to die and to uh deal with the Russian patriarch no matter how compromised he may have been, no matter no matter you know, there's nothing that could possibly explain this. 00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:08.880 You had to stay there. 00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:34.400 And what I'm saying is that that might be an art that could be true, but you also have to factor in that the uh that whatever you want to say about the side that left, like Rokor, right, you do have to factor in also that there was a foment a fomenting of schism from the more institutional side as well. 00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:35.119 Right? 00:36:35.119 --> 00:36:39.199 I think in that video I gave the example of like an

abusive father. 00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:40.400 Right? 00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:48.159 Um you cannot just, you know, renege your uh uh responsibilities as a son and run away from home. 00:36:48.159 --> 00:37:00.000 But if you were to try to counsel that situation, you would have to speak to the son and you would have to say, look, like you ran away from home, you can't do that, you know, you have to that there are other things you can do before you do that. 00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:06.559 But you would also have to speak to the father if you're a good counselor and say, look, scripture teaches you not to exasperate your children, etc. 00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:06.880 etc. 00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:08.639 Like it's a two-way street. 00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:16.960 And so my point wasn't to do wasn't to say that, and still isn't to say that schism is very clear, either these people are schismatics or these people are schismatics. 00:37:16.960 --> 00:37:19.679 It can be the it can be the case that both are schismatics. 00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:21.360 Like that can happen. 00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:23.760 Um, and in fact, routinely does. 00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:42.239 Um you know uh introducing things that bring disunity into the church can happen under a million possible different circumstances, and we don't actually need to, I think, uh, have uh you know this very clear line on um who's 100% at fault and who isn't. 00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:46.400 That's that's almost never the case, even even in personal um discord. 00:37:46.400 --> 00:37:53.199 You know, it's it's very rarely the case that a situation is just 100% the fault of one person. 00:37:53.199 --> 00:38:01.280 And for our purposes, I mean I brought up the Russian Orthodox Church, but an even more interesting case could be something like the Great Schism of 1054. 00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:11.280 You know, in the Eastern Orthodox mind, it's just a given that the Roman Catholics were completely like the Western Church was just obviously at fault for everything. 00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:14.239 That's an assertion, that's not a fact. 00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:24.000 And it also doesn't factor in these other schisms that had happened prior in church history, like with what is now known as the Oriental Church or what you know came to be known as the Assyrian Church of the East. 00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:38.800 I mean, those are very complex, interesting histories where there is a very good argument to be made that much of that was based off of a misunderstanding of uh across cultural differences, across languages, across personal uh approaches to tradition and whatnot. 00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:50.239 And so I just don't think that it makes sense, logically or historically, to locate schism exclusively that it's always a binary. 00:38:50.239 --> 00:38:52.239 It's either these or it's either those. 00:38:52.239 --> 00:38:55.760 It's usually both, or you know, both and. 00:38:55.760 --> 00:38:57.840 And yeah, you know what? 00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:11.280 Also, honestly, there are instances throughout church history and in recent history where there just are rabble rousers, and it doesn't matter how uh it doesn't matter how much you try to work with them, people just leave in a in a huff. 00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:17.519 I'm thinking of a very specific example of a denomination that formed recently on on that point, and I'm not gonna name them. 00:39:17.519 --> 00:39:22.800 You know, but there yeah, there was just absolutely there's there's just no defending them existing. 00:39:22.800 --> 00:39:25.280 You know, that they are a schismatic sect. 00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:27.119 That can happen as well. 00:39:27.119 --> 00:39:34.000 Um but I don't think everything has to be I don't think that has to be projected on every schism that's ever happened. 00:39:34.880 --> 00:39:46.320 Yeah, I think with the schism between the East and the West, I mean tensions were rising for a while, I think, between leavened versus unleavened bread used in the sacrament. 00:39:46.320 --> 00:40:07.280 Um obviously, um You know, I know eventually, I'm not sure at what uh time frame this was, but you know, even there are differences on statues versus icons, you know, like that's there's there's all these similarities, not similarities, but there's all these um things that kind of factor into it, right? 00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:19.840 Like like you said, um because I mean the old saying, you know, it takes two to tango, because there's uh you know, sometimes it's not always one person or one group that's being schismatic. 00:40:19.840 --> 00:40:30.559 Sometimes it's uh I don't know, Christian charity and kind of knowing what are secondary and tertiary issues. 00:40:30.559 --> 00:40:33.360 I know Gavin Ortland, you know, he talks about this a lot. 00:40:33.360 --> 00:40:43.119 I think he does have uh some very solid points on this, and I know he deals with a lot with the Eastern Orthodox, at least as of recently, definitely for sure, probably within the past couple years. 00:40:43.119 --> 00:40:48.159 Um but it but it is kind of interesting because some things are cultural, right? 00:40:48.159 --> 00:41:00.719 And some things like I think from the Eastern Orthodox perspective, they probably would view it that the Protestants we don't we don't have tradition, we throw out tradition, tradition's unimportant. 00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:05.920 And I mean, what do we do, you know, at my church, your church? 00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:09.599 Um a lot of times it's very similar. 00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:13.360 It's just our theological understanding of those things are different, right? 00:41:13.360 --> 00:41:20.320 You know, whether it's the the Lord's Supper, whether it's hymns, um prayer, the reading of scripture. 00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:22.559 You know, it's like we all do these things. 00:41:22.559 --> 00:41:36.719 And and um but so uh one of the common critiques that you get um, especially from the groups that hold

apostolic succession in the way the which the the Eastern Orthodox do, because that's the thing, right? 00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:39.199 Like you brought up the Oriental Orthodox. 00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:48.960 So you have Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and uh Oriental Orthodox all kind of making the same claims to some degree about being the one true church. 00:41:48.960 --> 00:41:50.960 Everyone else broke off from us. 00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:55.679 Um but I think as Protestant, as Protestants, we don't really see it that way. 00:41:55.679 --> 00:41:59.519 Our understanding of the true church is it is different. 00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:14.000 Not that there's not a visible element to it, but I think I think sometimes um at least orthodoxy seems to downplay the doctrine of election about there being an elect group that's preserved by by God. 00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:25.440 Um but so when Orthodoxy criticizes Protestantism for being fragmented, um, and I know you brought up in one of your videos about uh I mean this is a common claim, right? 00:42:25.440 --> 00:42:28.400 Like there's 45,000, there's 45 million. 00:42:28.400 --> 00:42:32.960 I mean, you just hear outlandish numbers about how there's two billion denominations, yeah, yeah. 00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:34.719 Yeah, it grows like every day. 00:42:34.719 --> 00:42:44.960 And uh I well, and I think with the Pew Research Center, for example, I think that they might have like Roman Catholicism, for example, might have like 24 quote unquote denominations. 00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:52.400 But like we would understand, right, as Protestants, it's like, well, that's a little bit a mischaracterization because it's like, well, they're all in communion with the See of Rome. 00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:59.440 Like we wouldn't see that they're like you could be Byzantine Catholic and be, you know, and obviously be in communion with Rome. 00:42:59.440 --> 00:43:04.400 You're not Roman Catholic, but you're still part of the the Catholic Church, quote unquote. 00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:10.159 Um so what would you say and how would you respond to the Orthodox claim? 00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:18.159 And like, do you think that the Orthodox are as united as they claim, or do you think that there is fragmentation like you see in Protestantism? 00:43:18.880 --> 00:43:20.320 There's definitely fragmentation. 00:43:20.320 --> 00:43:35.039 Um and the 45,000 denominations claim is, you know, I I'm not somebody that is um particularly confrontational and you know speaks very boldly in that way, but I think here we just have to call this patent absurdity. 00:43:35.039 --> 00:43:42.480 Um it is just, you know, it it's either it's either completely willful ignorance or um malevolent lying. 00:43:42.480 --> 00:43:44.719 There's really kind of no third option here. 00:43:44.719 --> 00:43:49.440 Um that there could not be 45,000 denominations if you tried of Protestantism. 00:43:49.440 --> 00:43:51.360 And this is where terms matter, right? 00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:59.679 So let me first sort of sketch out what the Protestant reality is, and then uh get into the Orthodox uh disunity. 00:43:59.679 --> 00:44:02.400 That they're not as united as people claim. 00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:10.880 And on that latter point, actually, this is something that I have always been frustrated with Protestant interlocutors, that they just state that, but they don't demonstrate it. 00:44:10.880 --> 00:44:14.559 So I'm going to try to demonstrate that uh for your listeners today. 00:44:14.559 --> 00:44:23.360 But in terms of Protestantism, one of the big misunderstandings that unfortunately even a lot of confessional Protestants have is that we're anti-institutional. 00:44:23.360 --> 00:44:24.559 We are not. 00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:31.199 And in fact, like I said, whereas we make a distinction between the essay and the ben essay of the church, it's still the ben essay. 00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:33.360 It's still for the well-being of the church. 00:44:33.360 --> 00:44:42.880 And ultimately, at that point, the like the fundamental rub really between the Reformed and the Anglican is going to be which one is better? 00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:48.400 So we're going to say that presbyterial succession is better and it's more scriptural for these reasons. 00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:52.880 The Anglicans are going to say, well, no, episcopal succession is better for these reasons. 00:44:52.880 --> 00:44:59.199 And, you know, in England, that became a very sticky issue at the time of the Reformation, uh, particularly in places like Scotland. 00:44:59.199 --> 00:45:01.679 Uh, can we impose the episcopacy and whatnot? 00:45:01.679 --> 00:45:06.639 But it was understood that having a state church was a good thing. 00:45:06.639 --> 00:45:20.559 Um, you find that in every in every you know, major Protestant thinker who speaks on politics, uh, the role that the government has to uphold the church in the land. 00:45:20.559 --> 00:45:24.320 Um, they they parse that out differently, but the idea is still the same. 00:45:24.320 --> 00:45:41.760 Inherent in Presbyterianism is this idea, and this is why I'm a little I'm a little grieved with the recent d decisions that have been made, not because I'm a Christian nationalist, but because this this was a resolved problem in the 17th century, the establishment principle inherent in the Westminster Standards. 00:45:41.760 --> 00:45:50.079 That you have the church and the state on they are two equal magisteria uh, you know, dealing with different issues, both ordained by God. 00:45:50.079 --> 00:45:53.599 It is the church's role to be a prophetic voice to the state. 00:45:53.599 --> 00:45:58.320 It is the state's role to help establish true religion in in the land. 00:45:58.320 --> 00:46:07.039 Um that's why there were you know Sabbath laws and adultery laws and and uh and uh uh idolatry laws and things like that. 00:46:07.039 --> 00:46:08.800 So sorry. 00:46:09.360 --> 00:46:10.079 No,

no, it's okay. 00:46:10.079 --> 00:46:11.039 I didn't mean to cut you off. 00:46:11.039 --> 00:46:24.960 I was just what you had said made me think of um uh I was watching uh Kirk Cameron with his son on one of his their podcasts, and uh that was one of the things he had brought up was about how America used to have adultery laws, which I mean I think would be a good thing. 00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:28.320 I mean, I think that that would help marriages, help families. 00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:32.159 Um so it would drastically improve the lives of women, yes. 00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:32.960 Yes, yeah. 00:46:32.960 --> 00:46:33.840 But go go ahead. 00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:37.599 I I'll I'll um I'll hold hold my peace for now and let you let you finish. 00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:38.239 I'm sorry. 00:46:38.559 --> 00:46:46.960 Yeah, and and I don't mean to go on this whole tangent, but the point is that the institutionality of Protestantism is baked into the system um for a number of reasons. 00:46:46.960 --> 00:46:49.199 And you and you see that like from the beginning, right? 00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:51.199 Luther is expelled out. 00:46:51.199 --> 00:47:05.440 So, you know, say it say what you want, but Roman Catholicism um that at least formally is it is excommunicated and anathematized by Eastern Orthodoxy, Eastern Orthodoxy anathematizes anything Western, so what are the Protestants supposed to do? 00:47:05.440 --> 00:47:11.920 We've been, you know, we've been anathematized twice for, we would argue, illegitimate reasons. 00:47:11.920 --> 00:47:28.000 We can trace our teaching patristically, um, and and rather than go the way of the chaos of the Anabaptists, we establish state churches um where there is a clear understanding of jurisdiction. 00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:41.280 Here are the Lutheran churches, here are the Reformed churches, here are the Anglican churches, and that becomes somewhat of a historical necessity, but also I think a practical benefit. 00:47:41.280 --> 00:48:09.039 So a historical necessity because there just was no separation of church and state at that time, then um then to actually go against the church like Roman Catholicism, you either had to raise an army, like the early Anabaptists did, and become violent, which the reformers did not, or you have to basically you know reform the whole state around Protestantism, which is essentially what they did. 00:48:09.039 --> 00:48:33.840 And so that leads to the former the formal writing of confessions that can agree and do agree on all the major essentials, like let's say the five solas, um and that all have the same canon and that all recognize each other's jurisdiction, um, and it's something that held within Europe for quite a long time. 00:48:33.840 --> 00:48:49.199 And whereas there were at times genuine schisms and genuine problems, um A they often had to do with political problems that arose in those countries, and B have historically been resolved. 00:48:49.199 --> 00:48:54.719 So um

a lot of people will say that, you know, well, Protestantism splits all the time. 00:48:54.719 --> 00:48:59.119 Well, it i sort of it does, but it also reunites all the time as well. 00:48:59.119 --> 00:48:59.599 Right? 00:48:59.599 --> 00:49:02.320 You can find that especially in in Scottish history. 00:49:02.320 --> 00:49:08.320 So that's why I'm sort of laboring the point to say this this is what Protestantism is. 00:49:08.320 --> 00:49:26.559 You know, you have the formation of three distinct streams, Lutheran, Anglican, Reformed, that also try to work very hard to have one church, but when they can't, they set up national churches that respect each other and still agree, you know, and have fellowship with one another and still agree on all the essentials. 00:49:26.559 --> 00:49:33.679 So at that point, what we're talking about basically is a series of autocephalous churches, if that language sounds familiar. 00:49:34.079 --> 00:49:36.480 Yeah, because orthodoxy is kind of like that, right? 00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:38.480 Autocephist structure. 00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:39.280 Yeah, okay. 00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:46.960 Where yes, we do have differences in opinion, but we respect each other and we know what we believe, and we all basically believe the same thing at its core. 00:49:46.960 --> 00:49:52.239 We disagree on these various matters that don't have to be a problem between jurisdictions. 00:49:52.239 --> 00:49:55.760 The reality with orthodoxy, however, has been very different. 00:49:55.760 --> 00:50:03.679 Um and so you can say whatever you want about Protestantism, but it's not that the situation improves drastically with Orthodoxy. 00:50:03.679 --> 00:50:09.519 If we take them, for example, uh, first of all, they do have lots of splinter factions. 00:50:09.519 --> 00:50:16.800 They do have lots of groups that split off from them and declare themselves to be the true Orthodox Church. 00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:18.719 And you could say, well, they're obviously wrong. 00:50:18.719 --> 00:50:19.920 Well, why obviously? 00:50:19.920 --> 00:50:20.400 Right? 00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:40.800 So if you're talking about the Russian Church, for example, you have the whole Nikonian reforms of the 17th century under uh Patriarch Nikan, where basically the Russian Church wanted to update its liturgy to match the Greeks, because the Greeks are our older brothers in the faith, and so therefore our liturgy obviously has to match theirs. 00:50:40.800 --> 00:50:46.159 But there were people in the Russian church at the time that said that, well, no, that the our liturgy is older. 00:50:46.159 --> 00:50:48.079 It's more apostolic. 00:50:48.079 --> 00:50:53.679 And so that became a whole problem that led to a split which formed the old believers. 00:50:53.679 --> 00:51:00.239 Now the irony is that, and you know, modern Russian scholars have acknowledged this, that the old believers were right. 00:51:00.239 --> 00:51:09.519 It was actually the Greeks that had innovated, and the Russian church was about to adopt innovations in an ironic attempt to become more apostolic, right? 00:51:09.519 --> 00:51:12.320 That caused a real schism that never healed. 00:51:12.320 --> 00:51:25.039 Uh, and there is a a lot of people don't know this, there is a basically, I don't know their exact uh term their exact name, but it's it's essentially the the free Russian Orthodox Church in Russia uh under Metropolitan Cornelius. 00:51:25.039 --> 00:51:27.280 And he's not an entirely fringe figure either. 00:51:27.280 --> 00:51:32.400 There are famous old believers in Russia, and uh he has an audience with Putin. 00:51:32.400 --> 00:51:37.760 Like he, you know, this is not an entirely marginalized like cult or anything like that. 00:51:37.760 --> 00:51:41.840 Um that never got healed, and I don't think ever will be. 00:51:41.840 --> 00:51:45.119 With uh when I talked about the formation of Rokor. 00:51:45.119 --> 00:51:52.400 Um Rokor did, this is the maybe the one major exception, did ultimately uh reunite with the Russian Orthodox Church. 00:51:52.400 --> 00:52:01.039 But when that happened, not everybody within Rokor felt like they were reuniting under the best circumstances or that those heresies had been resolved. 00:52:01.039 --> 00:52:02.639 So that led into further splits. 00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:15.599 So now you have the genuine Orthodox Church of America, you have the true Orthodox churches across various different countries in Serbia, in Romania, in in uh you know, elsewhere, in Greece, you have the old calendarists that did not accept the reforms. 00:52:15.599 --> 00:52:21.840 Um none of these things are obvious, and they have led to all kinds of splinters and schisms. 00:52:21.840 --> 00:52:30.400 And uh those schisms and splinters are almost impossible to resolve because one side is basically gonna have to completely capitulate and say, we were wrong, right? 00:52:30.400 --> 00:52:32.400 Uh we were not the one true church. 00:52:32.400 --> 00:52:40.400 So they're just sort of waiting each other out about who's going to you know completely concede and come back in. 00:52:40.400 --> 00:52:43.440 Um so they do have lots of splinter factions. 00:52:43.440 --> 00:53:00.800 They also have different canons of scripture, and this is explained a way differently that you know it doesn't matter or it's not true or it's blown out of proportion, but the the Russian, the Greek, and the Georgian church all have different canons. 00:53:00.800 --> 00:53:02.800 Um, depending on how you count it. 00:53:02.800 --> 00:53:06.559 The Georgian and the Greek Church have a 74 book canon, but different books. 00:53:06.559 --> 00:53:08.960 The Russian Church has a 76-book canon. 00:53:08.960 --> 00:53:15.119 And then the Russian Church becomes even more interesting because all of these had been somewhat dogmatically defined. 00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:26.880 Yes, there was never an ecumenical council that did that defined a council, that

defined the canon, but the point still remains that uh this became an official position within these various churches. 00:53:26.880 --> 00:53:31.519 The 1672 Jerusalem Council, for example, delineates a Greek canon. 00:53:31.519 --> 00:53:38.320 And the Russian church did have a clear canon in the Ostrog and Elizabethan Bibles that was clearly delineated. 00:53:38.320 --> 00:53:53.360 Well, in the 19th century, when they were translating the Bible from old church Slavonic into modern Russian, Philorette of Moscow insists on a 66 book canon and clearly distinguishing the other books as Judero canonical. 00:53:53.360 --> 00:53:57.119 Sounds fairly which created a whole flame war, right? 00:53:57.119 --> 00:54:06.159 So not only do you have different canons across the different jurisdictions, but you also have different canons depending on what point in history you're talking about within a jurisdiction. 00:54:06.159 --> 00:54:07.039 Right? 00:54:07.039 --> 00:54:13.679 And I've made the case, and you know, the Orthodox, I think, just don't take it seriously, but if you don't have one Bible, you don't have one church. 00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:22.159 If you don't have a unified understanding of what the boundaries are of Thus Says the Lord, then how can you speak of one faith? 00:54:22.159 --> 00:54:23.119 Right? 00:54:23.119 --> 00:54:30.239 Um That's different from having different liturgies, that's different from having different, you know, uh authority structures. 00:54:30.239 --> 00:54:35.840 Like if we can't agree on what God really said, you know, that that that becomes highly problematic. 00:54:35.840 --> 00:54:36.639 And that's a problem. 00:54:36.639 --> 00:54:52.559 This is why I set up Protestantism so strongly in the beginning, that Protestantism doesn't have you also have a wide range of understandings within Orthodoxy of what are actual valid jurisdictions, right? 00:54:52.559 --> 00:54:55.039 Why are Moscow and Constantinople arguing right now? 00:54:55.039 --> 00:54:58.239 It's because they can't agree on what is the true Ukrainian church. 00:54:58.239 --> 00:55:11.360 And that becomes even more complex because at least the previous Albanian uh patriarch Anastasios, he recently reposed, uh, he agreed with the Russians. 00:55:11.360 --> 00:55:20.239 I mean, he he basically said, look, it's not that I agree with Russia because they're Russians, it's just that they have a point that you know this new Ukrainian church does not have valid apostolic succession. 00:55:20.239 --> 00:55:22.079 Well, Constantinople disagrees. 00:55:22.079 --> 00:55:26.719 Well, another patriarch disagrees, and then there's a geopolitical element to all this and all the rest of these things. 00:55:26.719 --> 00:55:30.639 We can't even agree on what jurisdictions are are valid or proper. 00:55:30.639 --> 00:55:39.920 Um the OCA was a controversial, the Orthodox Church in America was a controversial uh canonical issue, right? 00:55:39.920 --> 00:55:43.360 Of can we

actually grant them autocephaly in the United States? 00:55:43.360 --> 00:55:46.639 And what does that mean for these other Orthodox churches that are in the United States? 00:55:46.639 --> 00:55:47.760 Because there's a bunch of them. 00:55:47.760 --> 00:55:51.280 And though, and by the way, those jurisdictions completely overlap with one another. 00:55:51.280 --> 00:55:54.639 The whole issue of uh doctrine developing. 00:55:54.639 --> 00:56:11.599 The the Russian church underwent something called the Western captivity, as it's been called by some, where you can you can really see very markedly over the course of a couple centuries a very obvious Western and Protestant influence in what they're writing and what they're saying. 00:56:12.079 --> 00:56:13.199 Lutheranism, right? 00:56:13.199 --> 00:56:16.800 Like a little bit of Lutheran influence, I think is what you said in one of your videos. 00:56:17.199 --> 00:56:18.480 Lutheran and Jesuit, yeah. 00:56:18.480 --> 00:56:22.320 Um and the more that I study, the more I see it. 00:56:22.320 --> 00:56:23.679 I mean, it's just everywhere. 00:56:23.679 --> 00:56:26.960 Um, Western captivity, I think, is a apt term. 00:56:26.960 --> 00:56:30.480 Um and there's just kind of no way of reconciling these things. 00:56:30.480 --> 00:56:55.679 I mean, people try, but but there is a shift that happens uh to a Western forensic model, to a 66-book canon, to all kinds of these other things that um again is a shift that was not what the Russian church had taught previously and not what the Russian church has taught since, because there's been this very marked correction, and I obviously think over correction, um, the whole issue of ecumenicity. 00:56:55.679 --> 00:57:02.719 The Greek church, by and large, tends to be more ecumenical and tends to want to build more bridges than the Russian Church does. 00:57:02.719 --> 00:57:03.199 Right? 00:57:03.199 --> 00:57:09.760 And there's a disagreement even there on what are the bounds of the church, what is the Ark of God, um, the Ark of Salvation, rather. 00:57:09.760 --> 00:57:18.639 So my point is that when you really put it down, and I'll just name them off uh uh very quickly in summary, we're not talking about a unified church. 00:57:18.639 --> 00:58:10.400 We're talking about a church where almost every jurisdiction has splinter factions, based off of issues that are not easy to identify and delineate clearly, different jurisdictions that have different canons and have different canons within the same jurisdiction depending on which time period you're talking about, marked changes in theology over different eras, um, and very different understandings on the uh place of non-Orthodox in the grand scheme of God's arc of salvation, um, and very fierce battles over the authority to establish new jurisdictions like in Ukraine or elsewhere, where it is not merely a problem between Moscow and uh Constantinople, but has also drawn in other jurisdictions like the Serbians,

the Albanians, uh the Romanians, the Bulgarians, etc. 00:58:10.400 --> 00:58:34.880 So when you put all that together and then you compare that to Protestantism, uh three major streams that agree on virtually all the essentials, um, that can, I think, make a pretty good continuous and patristic argument for all of their core doctrines, that have the same canon, that respect each other's uh place in the in the wider Protestant world. 00:58:34.880 --> 00:58:54.880 I think you actually end up coming with a Protestantism that is far more united and clearly delineated, um, and based off of a of a continuous confession that has remained virtually unchanged for 500 years and is a I think a much better model of unity than Eastern Orthodoxy is, you know, by by far. 00:58:55.840 --> 00:59:05.280 Yeah, yeah, there was that, you know, there was a lot there, so I'm gonna try to try to uh like I had questions and I had uh comments on a lot of it. 00:59:05.280 --> 00:59:22.000 Um yeah, no, I I I think you're right when it comes to um some of the unity, like I feel like some of the fragmentation or some of the um disunity that's lodged at Protestantism, some of it's founded, some of it's unfounded. 00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:30.719 And I and the reason why I say that is because, like going back to what you said, there definitely is an agreement on the 66 book uh Old Testament canon. 00:59:30.719 --> 00:59:35.519 Um, you know, some will try to argue, oh, it's just Martin Luther took books out of the Bible. 00:59:35.519 --> 00:59:39.440 It's like that's a not really accurate representation of what happened. 00:59:39.440 --> 00:59:46.719 I mean, they were still in his Bible, they were in the back of the Bible, part of the Deutero canon, which follows an older tradition, right? 00:59:46.719 --> 00:59:50.480 Because I think it was Athanasius and his might be his festal letter. 00:59:50.480 --> 00:59:51.440 Um I think I remember. 00:59:51.920 --> 00:59:52.800 Crazy letter 39. 00:59:53.119 --> 00:59:53.840 Oh, okay, nice. 00:59:53.840 --> 00:59:59.199 Yeah, it it seems to follow fairly closely to the exact Protestant canon. 00:59:59.199 --> 01:00:02.320 And then Jerome had very similar viewpoint on this. 01:00:02.320 --> 01:00:13.360 So it's not that um Protestants invented invented this out of thin air, that the 66 book canon is just the intertestamental period, there's obviously no prophets. 01:00:13.360 --> 01:00:19.280 Um, some of them even claim to not be a part of uh holy scripture, I believe. 01:00:19.280 --> 01:00:26.639 Um but uh so you have that common common canon, which I think is important. 01:00:26.639 --> 01:00:29.519 You have the common understanding of justification by faith alone. 01:00:29.519 --> 01:00:56.800 Um and if you look at historic Anglicanism, um Lutheranism, I think with an Augsburg Confession, and then um uh I do think it's funny because it's like across countries, um whether it's the Belgic Confession and um like you see like across countries

and across Protestant traditions, a lot of them when you read them, you're like, wow, these are all a lot of them are saying the same thing um in regards to the doctrine of election. 01:00:56.800 --> 01:01:02.400 Um some of them maybe get more specific than others in regards to like let's say the doctrine of election. 01:01:02.400 --> 01:01:13.599 Um I think to play devil's advocate, I I think what they might say to you when it comes to, you know, we agree on the essentials, and then they would be then they would ask is like, well, is baptism essential? 01:01:13.599 --> 01:01:22.000 Because then they would be like, well, you have different interpretations of what uh is you know, is there baptism or regeneration? 01:01:22.000 --> 01:01:27.039 Like Lutheranism would probably say yes from my memory, if serves me correctly. 01:01:27.039 --> 01:01:31.679 Um Anglicans, yes, but it's a qualified yes. 01:01:31.679 --> 01:01:36.800 Um, where it's like, I think they they still acknowledge that, and rightfully so, right? 01:01:36.800 --> 01:01:46.159 Because uh in the New Testament you can see clearly that people have been regenerated and received the Holy Spirit before baptism. 01:01:46.159 --> 01:01:54.000 And then you have someone like Simon Magus, who I believe was baptized, but then showed no evidence of salvation and offered to buy the Holy Spirit from Peter. 01:01:54.000 --> 01:01:56.960 And Peter says, you know, let your money perish with you. 01:01:56.960 --> 01:02:07.519 So um I think all that's like really important to say out loud because I feel like it gets um it doesn't get a lot of airtime. 01:02:07.519 --> 01:02:18.559 Um I feel like a lot of people don't understand that when they look at Protestantism today, they see megachurches, they see smoke machines, that like that's their perception of what Protestantism is. 01:02:18.559 --> 01:02:27.920 And I don't think they rightfully or I don't think they correctly look at the historic professions of faith that um historic Protestantism has claimed. 01:02:27.920 --> 01:02:32.159 Um, because they're very insightful, and like I like I said, I think there's a lot of unity. 01:02:32.159 --> 01:02:42.880 Uh but the other thing was I was reading an Orthodox guy the other day, and he was trying to claim that uh within a certain jurisdiction there should only be, I think, one bishop. 01:02:42.880 --> 01:03:00.480 But the issue run you run into an issue with the fact that, well, Orthodoxy is very divided when it even along cultural lines, because in Canton, North Canton area, we have you know, you have Greek Orthodox, you have um uh I mean you might even have Russian Orthodox. 01:03:00.480 --> 01:03:02.400 I'm trying to think of the one I saw the other day. 01:03:02.400 --> 01:03:07.360 It looked like it was maybe I'm trying to I'm trying to think. 01:03:07.360 --> 01:03:13.119 But there you do run into different Orthodox churches along cultural lines, right? 01:03:13.119 --> 01:03:16.960 Um I'm trying to

think of the uh the other one I just recently saw. 01:03:17.360 --> 01:03:20.000 Yeah, that's what I that's what I meant by overlapping jurisdictions. 01:03:20.320 --> 01:03:37.360 Yeah, so I I'm guessing I'm curious as how they view that because from his perspective, and he was an Orthodox priest, he was like, there should only be one bishop basically running this entire jurisdiction, not different bishops split along cultural lines. 01:03:37.360 --> 01:03:47.440 So it's like I think that that even runs into you know issues, uh even according to them, I I would say, um, they would see that as being a problem, some of them. 01:03:48.159 --> 01:04:00.880 Yeah, and and that's that's kind of my point here is that when when you're talking about the US, the US is a complete anomaly in world history, or at least in Christian history. 01:04:00.880 --> 01:04:01.519 That's fair. 01:04:01.519 --> 01:04:05.760 Because with the spread of Christianity, and it goes very deep. 01:04:05.760 --> 01:04:13.360 I mean, early Christianity goes far into Asia, you know, deep into Africa, you know, it well before it goes up north into Europe. 01:04:13.360 --> 01:04:26.000 So that you know, that notwithstanding, that's a more contained uh situation because you are still talking about more or less one one land mass, even if you're not talking about the same continent. 01:04:26.000 --> 01:04:33.360 What the United States was supposed to be, and I feel like as a Canadian I shouldn't have to remind people of this, but it's the United States of America. 01:04:33.360 --> 01:04:40.400 So in theory, it's supposed to be different, basically, countries that are federated together in terms of one center of power, right? 01:04:40.400 --> 01:04:44.159 That's why Washington, DC is not really a state and all that sort of thing. 01:04:44.159 --> 01:04:48.880 By the way, not for nothing, um, that's that's what Russia is. 01:04:48.880 --> 01:04:58.000 The the official title of the country, it's the Russian Federation, because Russia within it has different nations that are subsumed into it. 01:04:58.000 --> 01:05:13.199 Um, like, you know, I I don't know which is a republic and which is a whatever, but you know, for example, Chechnya or Ingushetia or Boshkaristan or these other, you know, we would think of them as like states, but actually in the Constitution they f they function more like countries. 01:05:13.199 --> 01:05:20.880 And so when the United States was founded along similar lines, there was the idea that it was supposed to be like that, right? 01:05:20.880 --> 01:05:28.480 New York was supposed to be a Dutch reformed state, and that's the church that has jurisdiction there, you know, and so on and so forth. 01:05:28.480 --> 01:05:30.239 Obviously, that doesn't pan out. 01:05:30.239 --> 01:05:38.239 And so the fact is that at the end of the day, that's an anomaly, and nobody can really throw stones at that point. 01:05:38.239 --> 01:05:43.440 Um, you know, we can't say, well, you guys have completely overlapping jurisdictions because they could say exactly the same thing. 01:05:43.440 --> 01:05:51.119 And all of us, I think, would have to take a step back and say, well, yeah, that's because this country is a complete anomaly in uh in Christian history. 01:05:51.119 --> 01:05:59.519 It's a it's a nation that conscientiously tried not to have a state church, and then initially. 01:05:59.519 --> 01:06:03.519 Had an establishmentarian principle and then abandoned it. 01:06:03.519 --> 01:06:08.480 And so at that point, like, okay, whatever you say about us, we could say about you, and vice versa. 01:06:08.480 --> 01:06:10.400 So let's just abandon that altogether. 01:06:10.400 --> 01:06:12.400 What are we even talking about at this point? 01:06:12.400 --> 01:06:25.519 However, the difference though is that we could say that A, for us that's not an ontological problem, because we place what is the church on a higher plane. 01:06:25.519 --> 01:06:32.079 And therefore we actually can work s we we actually can work through some of those differences, but you can't. 01:06:32.079 --> 01:07:05.599 But um Ah yeah, the other point that I had to that was another way in which American Christianity is this complete anomaly is because a lot of what gets believed to be Protestantism are Great Awakening m issues with a deep Anabaptist root. 01:07:05.599 --> 01:07:12.000 And just because those things affirm the five solas, at least on paper, and even then, you know, do they, right? 01:07:12.000 --> 01:07:15.039 Like does Pentecostalism affirm solo scriptura? 01:07:15.039 --> 01:07:17.280 Well, that's that's a question, you know. 01:07:17.280 --> 01:07:21.760 Um, then it's just sort of assumed that that's obviously Protestantism. 01:07:21.760 --> 01:07:26.400 But I think we have but I think we have to be pretty clear that no, that's a that's a different thing. 01:07:26.400 --> 01:07:30.800 Those are different values, and it grew out of a different set of historical circumstances. 01:07:31.519 --> 01:07:31.920 Yeah. 01:07:31.920 --> 01:07:45.440 So I think when you say historic Protestant churches, it would make sense that it would be the ones directly that came from the Protestant Reformation, Anglicanism, uh, Presbyterianism, and Lutheranism. 01:07:45.440 --> 01:07:49.599 And obviously a little bit further down the line was you know the Baptist movement. 01:07:49.599 --> 01:08:11.760 Um, and I I was raised Baptist and I um have attended recently like a Presbyterian church for over a year, and um uh recently, um, you know, because of my own reasons, um, you know, started checking out a little bit of Anglicanism just to get an understanding of what they believe, because obviously they're the the world's uh largest Protestant denomination. 01:08:12.159 --> 01:08:14.559 I I had the same journey as you, by the way. 01:08:14.880 --> 01:08:22.079 Yeah, and and a lot of it for me, it's a little bit more of um so the church the PC or the

Presbyterian church I was going to is PCA church. 01:08:22.079 --> 01:08:24.720 It's a you know really nice church, I really like it. 01:08:24.720 --> 01:08:29.199 Um so me with my theology, I'm definitely Presbyterian. 01:08:29.199 --> 01:08:44.640 Um because of me and my wife having grown up in um uh different um Christian traditions, that's what leads me to you know start checking out Anglicanism um just for you know understanding it. 01:08:44.640 --> 01:08:54.319 And I I also feel like it's a little bit more of like it's more liturgical, which is what she's used to, and the reform theology is a little bit more of what I'm used to. 01:08:54.319 --> 01:08:57.680 So that's what makes Anglicanism kind of interesting to me. 01:08:57.680 --> 01:09:21.279 Um but um to go off of what you were saying earlier about the um uh some of the churches popping up, some of them out of the Great Awakening, and uh I think I think it does seem to be that the perception is that a lot of the Protestant churches that non-denominational, you know, we could argue about whether or not they're quote unquote Protestant. 01:09:21.279 --> 01:09:23.840 If you want to say historic Protestant, then then no. 01:09:23.840 --> 01:09:30.399 Excuse me, this same argument could be had about Baptists, whether or not they're included within. 01:09:30.399 --> 01:09:39.039 Because I mean, you know, how one defines Protestant could vary among who you're talking to. 01:09:39.039 --> 01:09:53.760 But I think the bigger issue is is the reason why it looks so fragmented is because um Protestantism for Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, it's basically the other category, right? 01:09:53.760 --> 01:09:57.840 Because it's like if they don't fit neatly in our bucket, that's what they are. 01:09:57.840 --> 01:10:07.199 So that's why I think that like Mormonism and Jehovah's Witness have been placed under the Protestant, you know, fold, which I don't which I believe is inaccurate, right? 01:10:07.199 --> 01:10:08.399 Because it's madness. 01:10:08.399 --> 01:10:14.960 Yeah, because you can't deny the as historic Protestants, we would say, you know, you can't be non-Trinitarian and be a Protestant. 01:10:14.960 --> 01:10:16.720 That like that just doesn't make sense to us. 01:10:16.720 --> 01:10:18.000 That doesn't logically follow. 01:10:18.000 --> 01:10:22.000 You're not following after the historic Nicene tradition tradition. 01:10:22.000 --> 01:10:30.560 Um, so and then you obviously have the other one that believes that you know you can have more than one God and people can become gods, I believe. 01:10:30.560 --> 01:10:44.319 Um I'm less familiar with Mormonism, but um basically, and obviously that was kind of a thing recently where I think the US government uh took off Mormonism under the Protestant umbrella, which I thought was the right move. 01:10:44.319 --> 01:11:05.760 Um but so before we close, I kind of wanted to get into uh what would be our last kind of uh topic, which was um how should Protestants kind of respond to you know the Orthodox use of like outside their church, there's no salvation? 01:11:05.760 --> 01:11:12.720 And of course, they're going to bring in uh Noah's Ark, because that's a common uh common analogy that's used. 01:11:12.720 --> 01:11:27.279 And I've done some reading about it and have my own opinions about it, but I would like to hear from you like what your thoughts are as to like how as Protestants should we respond to that claim that there's no salvation outside outside of Eastern Orthodoxy. 01:11:28.880 --> 01:11:32.720 Well, that that's a claim that needs to be uh supported. 01:11:32.720 --> 01:11:34.319 It can't just be stated. 01:11:34.319 --> 01:11:36.239 You know, why why is that? 01:11:36.239 --> 01:11:44.800 And ultimately, you know, again, there's different ways of going about it, going back to our original conversation. 01:11:44.800 --> 01:11:50.640 Um, but it's going to be uh, well, we obviously have the correct doctrine and we obviously have the correct succession. 01:11:50.640 --> 01:11:55.279 And again, those are those are statements that need to be supported. 01:11:55.279 --> 01:11:57.520 The assertions that need to be proven. 01:11:57.520 --> 01:11:59.520 They can't just be stated. 01:11:59.520 --> 01:12:15.840 Um and also there are other even if you believe those assertions, you then have to decide what you're gonna do with the obvious implications of excluding whole swathes of Christianity in that way. 01:12:15.840 --> 01:12:22.720 So, you know, first of all, Jesus told us, Come to me who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 01:12:22.720 --> 01:12:23.600 Right? 01:12:23.600 --> 01:12:31.600 Now you could read into that and say, Well, obviously you have to come to Jesus the way he ordained, and he ordained through his church and all the rest of it, but at that point you're reading into it. 01:12:31.600 --> 01:12:40.800 When our Savior speaks to us in Scripture, he sees he speaks to us in a way that he can be found and rested upon directly. 01:12:40.800 --> 01:12:45.199 And so we would agree as Protestants that outside the church there is no salvation. 01:12:45.199 --> 01:12:48.000 But the word church has to be defined. 01:12:48.000 --> 01:12:49.119 Right? 01:12:49.119 --> 01:13:00.960 And so uh as a you know, as as a pithy answer, I would say that those are assertions that need to be proven. 01:13:00.960 --> 01:13:06.239 Um why is it that those things make make you the only church? 01:13:06.239 --> 01:13:13.279 And then what do you do with the fact that the grace of God is obviously evident outside of Eastern Orthodoxy? 01:13:13.279 --> 01:13:14.560 Right? 01:13:14.560 --> 01:13:34.720 Now, that often gets called an appeal to emotion, but it's not an appeal to emotion or experience because the fact is that when Satan works, yes, he tries to imitate God, but Satan does not perform counterfeits that genuinely bring glory to God. 01:13:34.720 --> 01:13:35.920 Right?

01:13:35.920 --> 01:13:55.279 And so as a Protestant, what I would say is that uh it is evident that outside of your church, the grace of God is working very powerfully, very mightily, and in many cases actually even more so, demonstrably more so, than it does within your church. 01:13:55.279 --> 01:14:04.159 So, what I would say as a Protestant is that the grace of God is obviously present in communions outside of Eastern Orthodoxy, and in many instances far more so. 01:14:04.159 --> 01:14:21.119 So I've often said on my channel that if you talk about the Russian Orthodox Church and I pick on them just because they're the largest communion, no other reason really, um, you're talking about best case scenario, three to seven percent of uh of people who are even remotely devout. 01:14:21.119 --> 01:14:34.720 In Protestantism, even if you take the most dim view and you're talking about just um American evangelicalism writ large, you're still talking about in the high dozens, so upwards of 50% of people who can clearly articulate the correct gospel. 01:14:34.720 --> 01:14:40.720 So, not to mention all of the actual fruit that results from that. 01:14:40.720 --> 01:14:51.840 And so we could agree that there are lots of problems within Protestantism that work against the benesse of the church. 01:14:51.840 --> 01:15:07.199 But Satan does not perform counterfeits that actually bring glory to God, that produce a life of repentance of one's sins and seeking after Christ and joining his church and s and carrying one's cross and all the rest of it. 01:15:07.199 --> 01:15:17.439 And so, where you have that, how do you actually say that therefore, no, because you don't have all of these externals in place, therefore you can't be a true Christian. 01:15:17.439 --> 01:15:42.960 Um at a certain point that becomes patently against uh logic and patently against what Scripture's teaching, because it doesn't comport with your doctrines that you need a lot of historical excavation to establish, a tremendous amount of historical excavation to establish, because the scriptural uh argument is really not that compelling. 01:15:42.960 --> 01:15:45.840 I mean, you know, we looked at apostolic succession in the New Testament. 01:15:45.840 --> 01:15:51.199 I mean, there's maybe a couple of different places you can look, but it's mostly a historical uh conversation. 01:15:51.199 --> 01:15:57.279 And so I would simply say that it's it's an inversion of which is the cart and which is the horse. 01:15:57.279 --> 01:16:06.399 Let's look at the actual realities first and see that look, you obviously have the Spirit of God moving and working outside of your church. 01:16:06.399 --> 01:16:07.680 What does that mean? 01:16:07.680 --> 01:16:23.279 And what that means is, you know, that unfortunately, as people, yes, Christ only has one bride, and yes, he only has one body, but he is bigger than our sin and our foolishness that creates divisions within that body. 01:16:23.279 --> 01:16:23.840 Right? 01:16:23.840 --> 01:16:28.880 We're not positing that Christ has multiple brides or multiple bodies, right? 01:16:28.880 --> 01:16:41.359 The Eastern Orthodox, I think, is fundamentally saying that no, no, no, when there is that case, um there's almost like a tacit denial that Christ is larger than those problems. 01:16:41.359 --> 01:17:00.560 We're saying he is, and clearly, despite our weakness and our foolishness and our hubris, that is to be found in every Christian tradition, including yours, uh, despite all that, the Spirit of God is moving and uh glorifying him in manifest ways. 01:17:00.560 --> 01:17:08.239 And so, therefore, that is all I need to say that those people are truly Christians and truly united to Jesus. 01:17:08.239 --> 01:17:20.079 Um, and the simplicity of the gospel is something that is just absolutely manifest throughout scripture, including the especially in the New Testament, but also in the old. 01:17:20.079 --> 01:17:25.520 And so I think when you lose that simplicity, I don't know what we're talking about anymore, you know? 01:17:26.159 --> 01:17:26.800 Yeah. 01:17:26.800 --> 01:17:36.399 And um that makes me think of a passage that Ortland brought up about um the disciples had were complaining about it, this other group. 01:17:36.399 --> 01:17:40.560 I think it was they they were either baptizing or even maybe doing miracles. 01:17:40.560 --> 01:17:49.680 And um, you know, we get this perception that they were other believers, they just weren't among the disciples, and the disciples had complained about it. 01:17:49.680 --> 01:17:51.760 And Jesus basically says, let them alone. 01:17:51.920 --> 01:17:54.479 He goes, you know, whoever's not against us is for us. 01:17:54.479 --> 01:17:54.720 Yeah. 01:17:54.880 --> 01:17:55.199 Yeah. 01:17:55.199 --> 01:17:55.520 Yeah. 01:17:55.520 --> 01:17:59.439 And I think that that is the perception that we should have as Christians. 01:17:59.439 --> 01:18:16.159 Um, because I think that we can be very ecumenical, not universalist, but we can be very ecumenical where um, because uh because the whole Nova's Ark analogy, um, because we would see it as more as as Protestants that, like, yeah, it is the church. 01:18:16.159 --> 01:18:31.199 I mean, the cross, uh, early church fathers talked about the cross kind of representing Christ or the um ark representing Christ's cross, and um obviously the waters reference referencing baptism and the dove representing um the Holy Spirit. 01:18:31.199 --> 01:18:52.560 And um, you get some really interesting um analogies and kind of typologies along among the fathers about this, um, which are important, but I think how the church is defined is also important, and that's usually from a Protestant standpoint, that would be union with with Christ, um, because we were buried with him in baptism. 01:18:52.560 --> 01:19:08.000 And um so I I think um with orthodoxy, I I do think that the appeal tradition to tradition a lot of times is what is usually happening. 01:19:08.000 --> 01:19:16.800 Um, because I had gotten into it with someone recently, and I won't I know we're probably running out of time, but um I was trying to get them to substantiate their claims, right? 01:19:16.800 --> 01:19:18.560 Because they can just appeal to tradition. 01:19:18.560 --> 01:19:23.680 So icon veneration, Saint Luke painted the first icon. 01:19:23.680 --> 01:19:34.479 There's really no historical or biblical evidence to support that, but they can just appeal to tradition, and that's supposed to trump any sort of doctrine or discernment that a Protestant has. 01:19:34.479 --> 01:19:54.239 So I I think from that percept perception, like um I feel like we're doing what the early church did, and oftentimes that was like, point to me in the scriptures where you're getting this, and then we can have a conversation about whether or not that's an accurate interpretation or not, um, which is important. 01:19:54.239 --> 01:20:05.439 But yeah, I I definitely think that um, you know, it's outside of Christ there's no salvation, and I think that that's what uh I think that that's what the New Testament clearly teaches. 01:20:05.439 --> 01:20:14.880 And by default, if you belong to Christ, um, like Augustine says, you know, no one ascends to heaven but he who has descended from heaven, Jesus Christ. 01:20:14.880 --> 01:20:19.039 And that's how we're able to ascend to heaven because we're united to Christ's body. 01:20:19.039 --> 01:20:24.239 Um, so but yeah, just with that being said, um, I mean, that's that's all I had. 01:20:24.239 --> 01:20:26.960 I mean, I'll I'll let you have the last word and then we'll wrap up. 01:20:26.960 --> 01:20:52.560 But I definitely would love to continue these conversations with you, whether it's um you coming on um, you know, my podcast or me coming on your channel, um, I definitely would love to carry on these conversations because I think they're important conversations and ones that um I feel like Protestants might not have as much field familiarity with, and I think it's important that to be um just well-rounded and kind of understand the claims that are being made from the other side. 01:20:53.600 --> 01:20:56.800 Yeah, I mean I I I don't have much to add to that. 01:20:56.800 --> 01:21:02.319 Um, so I'm always happy to discuss these things and looking forward to doing that again in the future. 01:21:02.560 --> 01:21:03.439 Okay, awesome. 01:21:03.439 --> 01:21:05.520 Well, I greatly appreciate you being on. 01:21:05.520 --> 01:21:06.479 Thank you, Ilya. 01:21:06.479 --> 01:21:07.600 It's been a pleasure to meet you. 01:21:07.600 --> 01:21:09.600 It's been a pleasure to have this conversation. 01:21:09.600 --> 01:21:13.760 I thoroughly enjoyed it, and I look forward to our continuing conversations. 01:21:13.760 --> 01:21:15.279 Yeah, likewise. 01:21:15.279 --> 01:21:16.960 Alright, I'll talk to you later. 01:21:16.960 --> 01:21:18.720 Bye.