Pełna transkrypcja odcinka The Ochelli Effect 5-1-2024 Larry Hancock

Harvey 59 00:04:47.480 --> 00:04:53.279 Oswald look like the screaming red communist. That would have made a lot more 60 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:57.279 sense, being that he killed the President of the United States, if you 61 00:04:57.360 --> 00:05:00.360 wanted to push that narrative. I mean, for some body to fabricate a 62 00:05:00.600 --> 00:05:08.439 trip to Mexico City for somebody to fabricate attempts to leave the United States once 63 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:13.079 again, to defect. All of those things kind of made sense, and 64 00:05:13.199 --> 00:05:17.519 Jander Huber felt as though he had been lied to regarding those circumstances. And 65 00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:21.319 oh, by the way, do we have photographs, do we have phone 66 00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:28.600 calls? Do we have a paper trail regarding this interesting trip? Maybe we 67 00:05:28.600 --> 00:05:32.160 should begin with the bare facts on this, Larry, and tell us what 68 00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:38.360 should be the introduction to Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City just a few weeks 69 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:45.199 before November twenty second of nineteen sixty three. Well, I think I'd start 70 00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:48.879 with two things, Chuck. As we often talk about, there is context, 71 00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:56.800 and you have to con the context of Oswald and Mexico City considering what 72 00:05:57.800 --> 00:06:01.759 he purportedly went there to do. He went there to do in conjunction with 73 00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:05.959 two things that he had been doing all year long, So in terms of 74 00:06:06.040 --> 00:06:12.639 consistency, and you know, I'm with you. Until I really started digging 75 00:06:12.959 --> 00:06:17.160 into this again for myself, I didn't realize how much that other people had 76 00:06:17.160 --> 00:06:20.279 written that I was taking for granted that I had never gone back to the 77 00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:27.560 source information on. So there's context that's very important. There's context. You 78 00:06:27.839 --> 00:06:33.920 actually have to begin with December nineteen sixty two, which is when Oswald starts 79 00:06:34.519 --> 00:06:41.240 his communication again with the Russian embassy in New York City, and all throughout 80 00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:46.839 the year of nineteen sixty three there is correspondence between Marina Oswald and the Russian 81 00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:54.120 embassy, and between Lee Oswell and the Russian embassy about Marina and June the 82 00:06:54.240 --> 00:07:00.680 child going back to Russia, about Oswell going back to Russia separately from them, 83 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:06.480 and then later when Marina gets pregnant pregnant another real push to urgency for 84 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:13.839 Marina to get back to the USSR so that the new baby is actually born 85 00:07:13.879 --> 00:07:17.959 in Russia. Is this context that we often ignore. I think I was. 86 00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:23.879 I was surprised to find that. You know, while she was in 87 00:07:23.920 --> 00:07:30.560 the United States, Marina had written and followed all the procedures required by the 88 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:38.600 Soviet Union to retain her citizenship. She had had written and file changes of 89 00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:44.560 addresses, she had she she had began writing in February of nineteen sixty three 90 00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:49.399 about the process for returning to the us SR. And I think that's some 91 00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:54.399 backstory that we often missed. Well, let me ask you a question about 92 00:07:54.399 --> 00:07:59.879 that real fast, because let's put the babies in context. Right. You 93 00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:05.040 have a June right, who is born in the Soviet Union, and Marina 94 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:11.160 brings her with her when she comes to America with Oswald, right, And 95 00:08:11.199 --> 00:08:18.319 then she's pregnant with the baby that will become Rachel Oswalt, and urgently she'd 96 00:08:18.319 --> 00:08:24.000 like to return to the Soviet Union. She's not happy here in America. 97 00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:26.720 You know, maybe she's really not happy with being with Oswald in America. 98 00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:31.960 You know, things are not going well. We famously know about that from 99 00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:37.159 some authors that maybe we don't really like. We definitely get accounts in the 100 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:41.279 Marina and Lee book, right, you know, the journalists that had run 101 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:46.200 into Oswald in the Soviet Union later on writing the book with Marina directly, 102 00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:54.039 So we get plenty of an idea that maybe Marina's unhappy here, not just 103 00:08:54.120 --> 00:08:58.320 unhappy in her marriage, but maybe just unhappy in America too, and would 104 00:08:58.360 --> 00:09:01.840 like to return home, and indeed would like to have her other child also 105 00:09:03.039 --> 00:09:07.120 born in the Soviet Union. I mean, it's the reverse of the anchor 106 00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:09.600 baby thing that people talk about, right, where it's like, I don't 107 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:15.039 want my kids born in America. I want to go back home where at 108 00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:18.519 least I understand how things work, and who knows, maybe I can get 109 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:22.080 rid of this husband I'm not too thrilled with, and he'd like to go 110 00:09:22.200 --> 00:09:28.840 back even separately. And nobody ever brings that up at all when they start 111 00:09:28.919 --> 00:09:33.799 talking about this series of events that leads to what happens in Mexico City. 112 00:09:33.320 --> 00:09:37.240 But also in context, right, you have his fair play for Cuba Committee 113 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:43.679 stuff. You have him writing to I think the Communist Party. You have 114 00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:48.039 him writing to a bunch of people about different things where he feels as though

115 00:09:48.039 --> 00:09:54.000 he's being targeted. He's complaining about the FBI and Hosty and host he's visiting 116 00:09:54.080 --> 00:10:00.200 him. All these things are going on swirling around Oswald, and then he 117 00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:05.080 decides to make this trip to Mexico. Right, and again, as I 118 00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:09.600 said, it's only a few weeks before literally he goes to Mexico in October. 119 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:13.440 And the dates are a little questionable. Somebody's got a couple of different 120 00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:16.360 ideas about dates. But if you actually look at the evidence that you're taking 121 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:20.000 into peace value, you have some dates here you can work with. You 122 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:24.080 have a couple of points that you can work with, and say, Oswald 123 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:33.440 is there just slightly over three weeks before the assassination, right, all right, 124 00:10:33.480 --> 00:10:39.799 and he's coming now again that backstory probably again you pointed out on Oswald. 125 00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:46.919 Clearly, whatever Marina is doing and there is a real backstory there, 126 00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:50.279 it's ambivalence. There are times when she gets along with Oswald. There's times 127 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:56.519 when she doesn't. Certainly America never worked out to be what she imagined it 128 00:10:56.559 --> 00:11:01.120 to be. And even when people actually try to persuade her separately, like 129 00:11:01.159 --> 00:11:05.200 to leave Oswald and can they help her do something to stay in the US, 130 00:11:05.559 --> 00:11:09.440 she goes back and forth and people kind of get disgusted with her over 131 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:16.320 that, like okay, And eventually, in one of her final letters to 132 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:22.679 the Soviet Union explaining her position, you know, as recently as October November, 133 00:11:22.799 --> 00:11:26.240 she's saying, look, I can't even I can't get a job here. 134 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:28.960 You know, if I was back in Russia, I'm trained as a 135 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:33.000 pharmacists assistant. I can get a job there. You know. So clearly 136 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:37.519 there's some ambivalence. But Oswald, if you want to set a starting point, 137 00:11:37.559 --> 00:11:45.679 clearly Oswald begins taking a turn towards someplace else, whether it's Russia, 138 00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:50.279 whether it's Cuba. As you say he applies for a new passport in June. 139 00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:56.799 You don't apply for a new passport unless you're thinking about going somewhere right, 140 00:11:56.120 --> 00:11:58.879 well, in then all fairness, okay, just in all fairness, 141 00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:05.759 and you're in a turbulent relationship. This is not uncommon. What's going on 142 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:09.039 here where you got back and forth. You got one party seeing it one 143 00:12:09.080 --> 00:12:13.039 way, one party seeing in another way. This is not, you know, 144 00:12:13.159 --> 00:12:18.360 the kind of thing that is made up really on the side of the 145 00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:22.320 low nut theorists, right who say that, you know, look, he 146 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:26.200 was just this disenchanted, dis in you know, malcontent kind of looks that 147 00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:31.120 way. He's not happy anywhere he's going. He can't seem to make any 148 00:12:31.159 --> 00:12:35.759 situation work out the way he wants it to. So this is not out 149 00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:46.799 of character, considering the inconsistent level of contentment that Oswald himself is seeking and 150 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:50.320 finding as he goes from place to place, and indeed, even having been 151 00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:52.840 to the Soviet Union, he wasn't happy there. He had to come back 152 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:56.759 here. Now he's not happy here, he wants to go back there. 153 00:12:56.159 --> 00:13:01.559 They're moving around. This is not actually outside of the realm of what would 154 00:13:01.559 --> 00:13:07.799 be normal in a circumstance like this, even if the names weren't Marina and 155 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:11.600 Leigh Oswald. Okay, So I'm just saying it's not a you know, 156 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:18.440 it's not an uncommon thing. And even when he's successful in a way, 157 00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:20.840 he's not I mean. And by the way, it's always important to remember 158 00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:26.879 something he said to his friend de Morenshield, and Oswell really said, you 159 00:13:26.919 --> 00:13:30.720 know, I know that I'm looking for something that I'm probably never going to 160 00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:35.759 find, because de Morenshield had kind of joked with him about, you know, 161 00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:39.080 you're you're an idealist, You're never You're you want to something that's just 162 00:13:39.159 --> 00:13:43.120 not going to happen. And Oz will actually recognize that to some extent. 163 00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:48.840 But if you look at his activity to two major areas of exactivity in New 164 00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:56.320 Orleans, he actually does achieve a certain amount of fame, visibility, recognition 165 00:13:58.799 --> 00:14:01.679 for his support for Q and for Castro. I mean up to that point 166 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:07.000 in time. I mean, he demonstrated in Dallas, he's been writing letters, 167 00:14:07.399 --> 00:14:11.000 but he's kind of a public non entity by the time he gets through 168 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:18.120 in New Orleans. He's known, he's there's a record, there's media record, 169 00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:22.919 he's been on TV, he's been in TV interviews, radio interviews. 170 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:26.960 He's been in the paper. But even then, where do you go next? 171 00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:33.720 Because he can't get a job. By this time, his dishonorable discharge 172

00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:37.960 has caught up with him. And if you look at his job application situation, 173 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:45.320 it just gets worse and worse. He has no references. If anybody 174 00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:48.879 checks out his background and his other jobs, he's not going to get any 175 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:58.879 recommendations. Is this is problem with being associated with supporting leftist causes. This 176 00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:03.000 is not a good place for anybody to be who's looking for work. So 177 00:15:03.399 --> 00:15:07.120 when we see him in New Orleans, here's here's Marina, who's pregnant. 178 00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:11.120 It's going to have a baby in a few months. He doesn't have a 179 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:16.080 job. He has no prospects of getting a job. You know, obviously 180 00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:20.440 he's looking for outlets. You know, what am I going to do next? 181 00:15:20.519 --> 00:15:26.440 Yeah? I made myself famous as a Castro supporter, But what do 182 00:15:26.519 --> 00:15:31.360 I do next? It hasn't helped him with his inconsistent living circumstance, It 183 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:35.200 hasn't helped him with his inconsistent job circumstance. None of that stuff has been 184 00:15:35.240 --> 00:15:39.440 helped here. So it might play in Cuba, but it's not playing in 185 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:43.799 the US right, especially not in a place like New Orleans, where, 186 00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:46.759 quite honestly, I mean, the general consensus is not going to be to 187 00:15:46.879 --> 00:15:50.600 be completely thrilled with left wing causes. It looks like to me, I 188 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:54.039 mean, maybe maybe I'm taking that out of context, but it seems like 189 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:58.440 you're right, and that's part of his problem. He is. When he 190 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:03.639 wrote to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, they actually advised him not to 191 00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:07.840 try to start a chapter because it's not a good place for you know, 192 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:11.840 procastro people. The interesting thing is, so they wrote back and wrote back 193 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:15.919 a letter and told him that kind of like, we'll send you literature, 194 00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:19.759 but you know, this would be a mistake on your part. For the 195 00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:23.480 rest of the summer, he continues writing to them. He never gets another 196 00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:30.720 response from them. Okay, Oswald is writing people that he's not getting responses 197 00:16:30.759 --> 00:16:36.559 to. He's writing to the Socialist Workers Party, he's writing a Communist Party 198 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:41.600 USA. I mean, if you wanted a pay portrayal to incriminate the man, 199 00:16:42.080 --> 00:16:45.639 all you've got to do. I don't need for him to go to 200 00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:48.000 Mexico. All I've got to do is pull out the letter that says, 201 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:52.679 you know, I'm really wholeheartedly support This is to the communist part of the 202 00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:56.399 US, you know, are cause and should I go underground? You know, 203 00:16:57.200 --> 00:17:00.080 you want a smoking gun. There you go, that's already been written 204 00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:04.559 before he does anything else. So he's he's done a lot of outreach. 205 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:11.759 But even to the people that you think might support him, they're hesitant. 206 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:15.799 You know, they know their mail is being monitored by the FBI. Right 207 00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:23.799 Oswald as early as the fall of nineteen sixty two, knew that his mail 208 00:17:23.960 --> 00:17:29.880 was being opened and monitored, Okay, which is interesting things. So yeah, 209 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:33.200 is he does that make him a little bit crazy? Does he protest 210 00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:37.119 to the post office? Yeah? But even these people, the people at 211 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:45.160 the magazines he's writing to, like the Socialist the Socialist Worker Party magazine, 212 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:48.640 when they're interviewed after the fact, they're going, yeah, we actually had 213 00:17:48.799 --> 00:17:53.119 letters on the file from this guy, and we didn't want him. You 214 00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:59.480 know, He's people are monitoring my mail, and you know, we don't 215 00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:03.359 want the kind of thing we want, very neutral, supportive, you know, 216 00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:07.039 we don't want anything radical associated with us. So there he is in 217 00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:12.799 New Orleans and in a way he's been successful. He's built built a public 218 00:18:12.920 --> 00:18:17.960 resume. But what's he going to do next? And I think that's what 219 00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:21.599 we often forget, what, well, what us will do next? He's 220 00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:26.240 he's told Marina and he's told Ruth Payne that he's going to have to look 221 00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:30.200 for work somewhere else. This isn't working. He might go to the East 222 00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:34.079 Coast, he might go to Houston, whatever, but it's already been made 223 00:18:34.119 --> 00:18:37.720 clear. He's going to have to leave New Orleans and go somewhere. You 224 00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:44.480 know, he's going to have to go somewhere. The only question is where 225 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:49.480 does he go? And there's no discussion with anybody about him immediately. You 226 00:18:49.480 --> 00:18:56.559 know he's not going to follow along with Marina and Ruth back to Oswa to 227 00:18:56.359 --> 00:19:00.480 uh Dallas right for the for the baby to be born. That's been clear. 228 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:03.359 So he's going to be going somewhere. I think we have to have 229 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:07.599 that as the backstory where there was going to be Mexico. We're going to 230

00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:11.960 find him somewhere other than New Orleans, right because it just wasn't working out. 231 00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:17.480 Okay. So but meanwhile, Marina and the baby, and now you 232 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:21.039 know she's going to be pregnant, so she needs a place to be and 233 00:19:21.079 --> 00:19:23.960 that might be a separate issue from him. So there you have it. 234 00:19:25.079 --> 00:19:29.839 Okay, So he goes to Dallas and he's not there that long, right 235 00:19:30.680 --> 00:19:33.680 into well, Texas, I should say, he's not there that long. 236 00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:38.279 But then we have this trip. So where do we begin with this. 237 00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:42.720 We don't actually know that he goes to Texas. Oh, there's nothing that 238 00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:48.480 shows him. Okay, I should not say that's incorrect since I've written something 239 00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:52.799 different as part of the official record as far as correspondence with Marina or Ruth 240 00:19:52.880 --> 00:20:00.319 or anything. There are reported sightings of him in Texas, Okay, one 241 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:06.039 in the Houston area, one in the Dallas area. So there are sightings, 242 00:20:06.039 --> 00:20:11.319 but officially he doesn't really come back on the radar with a paper trail 243 00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:18.440 until he shows up at the ymcah in in October in Dallas. And actually 244 00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:22.880 even when he shows up back in Dallas, the interesting thing is he registers 245 00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:29.519 at the Y and he actually starts job hunting before he even contacts Marina. 246 00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:33.319 But I not to grip, but that we don't. We don't have any 247 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:38.799 travel or anything that shows him. You know, he's in New Orleans and 248 00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:45.279 then weeks later he's in Dallas. Right, No, fair enough, and 249 00:20:45.319 --> 00:20:48.440 Look, he's looking for replace to land, and it's not going to be 250 00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:52.720 with Marina, but he's somewhat nearby, so maybe he can come visit. 251 00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:56.319 Maybe that's coming into his mind. But obviously he's got to figure out a 252 00:20:56.319 --> 00:21:00.599 way to earn a living, so he's trying to do that right away. 253 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:06.480 He's going to the temp agencies and all that. And then we have this, 254 00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:08.480 you know situation, how did you get the job of the book depository? 255 00:21:08.519 --> 00:21:11.480 We've been over that. We don't need to lay that out again, 256 00:21:12.039 --> 00:21:15.519 but he ends up with that, with that job at a certain point. 257 00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:19.279 But how does this Mexico City trip, you know, come on the radar? 258 00:21:19.640 --> 00:21:25.680 How does it appear in the record? You know? That's and and 259 00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:29.480 that's a place where we actually do have a paper trail. I mean we 260 00:21:29.640 --> 00:21:36.960 have again for some reason, we usually view it as if it all comes 261 00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:41.920 about after the assassination. But but we have a paper trail of correspondence between 262 00:21:42.440 --> 00:21:51.799 the Mexico City CIA station and CIA headquarters, who copies parts of that messaging 263 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:56.880 to several other agencies. And that that paper trail, which begins in October, 264 00:21:57.400 --> 00:22:03.039 uh about eight days after he's you know, purportedly left Mexico City. 265 00:22:03.559 --> 00:22:07.920 The paper trail says, there's been an American here. He's been at the 266 00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:15.480 Russian embassy, and we have identified him as Lee Harvey Oswald right now. 267 00:22:15.799 --> 00:22:21.720 The interesting part of that paper trail is it's all about Oswald in Mexico City 268 00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:27.400 at the Russian embassy. And this is where the nightmare begins in essence, 269 00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:33.240 because even though that paper trail is solid, we then generate a whole series 270 00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:38.559 of back and forth messages. UH. Mexico City station is asking about information 271 00:22:38.920 --> 00:22:45.839 on Lee Harvey Oswald and headquarters sends them back some information and copies of their 272 00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:51.559 people. We actually have a document that says, right at the time of 273 00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:55.480 Lee Hoswald, UH, like that time in October when he's when he's there, 274 00:22:56.000 --> 00:23:02.839 Mexico City not only identify UH notified headquarters about him being at the Russian 275 00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:10.319 Inmpoort. They notified UH other staff in Mexico City, the legot UH who 276 00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:17.480 in any diplomatic station is the FBI representative. UH, That's just the way 277 00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:22.480 it works. So the FBI guy in Mexico City has been notified he was 278 00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:26.720 there. The ambassador has been notified he's been there. There there's a big 279 00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:32.160 stir in Mexico City because Lee RV. Oswald has been there and he's been 280 00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:37.839 at the Russian embassy, so that that goes that is going on over the 281 00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:42.960 weeks part of the assassination. Uh, what's what gets to be our our 282 00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:51.160 biggest nightmare is some things that the CIA starts doing in terms of compartmentaling information, 283 00:23:51.240 --> 00:23:56.119 compartmentalizing information not only from Mexico City station, but from the FBI. 284 00:23:56.720 --> 00:24:03.839 And the big thing that they start doing is not sharing information about what Oswell 285 00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:07.720 was doing in New Orleans, about Oswell's trip to the Cuban and visits to 286 00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:14.839 the Cuban, about his FPCC

activities, that all this information is shielded, 287 00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:21.279 and it's taken literally decades for us to find out how badly compartmentalized it was. 288 00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:26.519 It's only through Simpach's work, Morley's work, some other people's work. 289 00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:32.440 Now we even know. We're beginning to know reasons for that, including the 290 00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:40.880 fact that the CIA was concerned that there was a leak inside the FBI office 291 00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:45.880 in Mexico City. So they're all sorts of game. But one of the 292 00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:48.599 things I wanted to point out, Chuck, is we had none of that 293 00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:55.200 information. We were not able to look at the complexity of what was going 294 00:24:55.240 --> 00:25:02.440 on around this Oswell story in Mexico City probably until within certainly within the past 295 00:25:02.440 --> 00:25:06.559 ten years. Right, So nothing that anybody wrote, nothing that I wrote, 296 00:25:06.599 --> 00:25:10.599 nothing that Peter Dale Scott wrote earlier. You were into this, the 297 00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:15.400 worse it was because the less information you had. And so I think that's 298 00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:19.759 an important thing when we look back on the evolving story of Ozla Mexico City. 299 00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:23.960 Is the good news is we know a lot more context now than we 300 00:25:25.039 --> 00:25:30.519 did before. Does that make it simpler now? It makes it more complex? 301 00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:33.200 Right? And Look, it's not just about the authors, because even 302 00:25:33.400 --> 00:25:38.240 in an official capacity, Ed Lopez, Dan Hardaway, they get sent down 303 00:25:38.279 --> 00:25:44.200 there to go find out what happened, you know, what went on here 304 00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:49.400 regarding his visits, and that was during the House Select Committee on Assassinations. 305 00:25:49.480 --> 00:25:53.640 Right, They send those two down there to go find things out. And 306 00:25:53.920 --> 00:26:02.519 although that report remained partially classified or completely classified for me years, even when 307 00:26:02.599 --> 00:26:07.519 we've gotten it now, it's still kind of confusing. It's more and that 308 00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:12.559 that's great to point that out because Lopez and the people that we're working on 309 00:26:12.759 --> 00:26:19.720 here's here's one of the major problems. The first CIA officer that was designated 310 00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:26.400 to do a report on Osle in Mexico City became actually very suspicious about what 311 00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:32.400 was going on within the CIA because the stories were so inconsistent okay, and 312 00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:37.160 way too complex and there were a lot of holes and a lot of contradictions. 313 00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:42.720 He got pulled off that job and replaced by James Angleton. Angleton is 314 00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:48.359 one of our primary suspects, and having made this the nightmare it is in 315 00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:55.079 terms of compartmentalization, because he was the guy that was controlling Oswald's file and 316 00:26:55.119 --> 00:27:00.880 compartmentalizing information in Oswell's file and is literally the people working for him that was 317 00:27:00.920 --> 00:27:07.319 filtering this information I was just talking about. So of course Lopez has come 318 00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:12.519 to understand you can't trust any of that. When the HSCA wrote their summary 319 00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:18.319 report that went along with his work, they literally said, you know, 320 00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:26.400 it is so bad the IG lied to us about practices in Mexico City. 321 00:27:26.359 --> 00:27:33.279 We don't trust the CIA documents. We found an internal CIA document that says 322 00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:40.079 everything that David Phillips told us about Oswald and Mexicanico City is incorrect because Phillips 323 00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:44.079 didn't know what was really going on. It's like a good lord, if 324 00:27:44.119 --> 00:27:48.160 Phillips didn't know what was going on, who knew what about anything? So 325 00:27:48.680 --> 00:27:52.960 you're absolutely right. It's not just the authors, it's the investigation itself that 326 00:27:53.720 --> 00:28:00.160 started deconstructing this mess that as we you and I have talked earlier, a 327 00:28:00.200 --> 00:28:07.839 lot of what's going on here is stuff going on within in the CIA about 328 00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:12.160 Oswald's appearance in Mexico City, which very has very little to do with what 329 00:28:12.200 --> 00:28:17.200 he was actually doing there himself, you know, because his visits, he 330 00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:21.119 he was only there for a few days. You know that that vision to 331 00:28:21.160 --> 00:28:26.519 the Russian embassy was relatively short. You know, it's just parsing out this 332 00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:32.680 complexity of what got overlaid after the fact, which leads to the big question 333 00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:37.000 of why was the CIA making it so complex? What else was going on 334 00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:41.920 that was thrown into this mix? Right? And it had to be pretty 335 00:28:41.960 --> 00:28:47.240 bad because we got greeted with those ridiculous pictures, right, you know, 336 00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:52.400 this is Lee Oswald, you know, outside of the embassy slash consulate, 337 00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:56.880 which they are two different facilities, but they're on the same premises. So 338 00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:00.839 let's keep that straight. And here's a picture of him. And meanwhile that 339 00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:04.680 is clearly not the guy that we know to be Lee RB Oswald. So 340 00:29:06.200 --> 00:29:11.039 what happens here? The CIA's got pictures of the wrong guy. You've got 341 00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:17.319 a wonder. It's sort of like the

Mexico City operation in terms of surveillance 342 00:29:18.200 --> 00:29:22.759 and monitoring, and it is the crown jewel of the agency. There is 343 00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:30.160 no place on Earth that has more assets devoted to surveillance and monitoring the Mexico 344 00:29:30.279 --> 00:29:34.359 City and much of that is because of this covert relationship with the Mexican president, 345 00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:40.960 who is given the CIA carte blanche to do everything they want to do 346 00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:45.039 in Mexico City as long as they share their information with him, which of 347 00:29:45.079 --> 00:29:48.920 course is one of the crown jewels of the CIA's operation. But this is 348 00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:55.200 the place where we got better resources than anyplace else in the US world. 349 00:29:55.440 --> 00:30:02.880 Okay, and Oswald supposedly enters the Cuban embassy, the Cuban consulate three times, 350 00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:07.839 the Russian embassy twice, and we don't have a picture. Okay, 351 00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:15.480 we don't have a picture. He's monitored on he's monitored multiple times. We 352 00:30:15.559 --> 00:30:21.640 know that there's a tap on the Cuban consulate line, Okay, a local 353 00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:26.000 tap. We know there's a tap on the Russian embassy line, a local 354 00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:30.440 tap, and we know beyond all of that, there's this huge facility with 355 00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:37.279 two dozen operators monitoring all the phone calls through the diplomatic facilities, through a 356 00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:45.440 centralized switching facility staffed by Mexican personnel, watched over by the America, the 357 00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:52.279 Mexican DFS, the federal police, who were doing their own recordings and transcripts. 358 00:30:52.279 --> 00:30:56.039 So we got local tapes, we got local monitors, we got centralized, 359 00:30:56.200 --> 00:30:59.960 and in the end, what do we have. We have nothing. 360 00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:04.000 We have no takes with voices on them that we can check, even though 361 00:31:04.559 --> 00:31:10.400 I think and I will maintain throughout that about the only people I can trust 362 00:31:10.920 --> 00:31:15.799 in this whole game are the terrasofs, who were the translitter transcribers working for 363 00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:22.400 the CIA, and who themselves were got a bit confused because they didn't handle 364 00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:26.119 all the intercepts right. Some were done locally at the you know, but 365 00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:30.400 them, when they say something, I tend tend to believe it because they 366 00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:33.799 say I listened to this, I listened to this, I wrote that down. 367 00:31:34.039 --> 00:31:37.200 You know, at least you've got a first party statement. But no, 368 00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:41.279 you're right Chuck, it's it's agonizing. You know, if you were 369 00:31:41.319 --> 00:31:48.359 writing a

performance review of the Mexico City station, uh, you would have 370 00:31:48.440 --> 00:31:52.519 to say you people suck. Yeah, because I can't. I can't reliably 371 00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:56.200 track. Even when you're talking about, okay, the whole thing with the 372 00:31:56.240 --> 00:32:01.880 tterosafs and the tapes. You've got a guy on there that's speaking Spanish really 373 00:32:01.880 --> 00:32:08.640 well, and to my knowledge, Oswald doesn't have that great of a command 374 00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:15.599 of Spanish. You know, we have a guy with a different accent, 375 00:32:15.799 --> 00:32:20.640 which okay, I don't know what's happening with some of these tapes. Yeah, 376 00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:23.079 And that gets one of the things I've been working really hard to do 377 00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:28.319 and we've talked about and what I try I will we do in the book 378 00:32:28.440 --> 00:32:32.359 Okay, that we're going to offer up is a deconstruction of all of those 379 00:32:32.440 --> 00:32:38.359 intercepts and who really heard what and who transcribed what. And one of the 380 00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:45.119 problems being is the pterosavs. Of course, only of seven purported calls that 381 00:32:45.240 --> 00:32:50.200 the the c I said Oswald might have been involved with, they only listened 382 00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:57.160 to and transcribed three, and they were very clear that the calls that they 383 00:32:57.279 --> 00:33:02.559 heard were in English, that they heard no broken Russian. They made no 384 00:33:02.759 --> 00:33:08.279 remarks about broken Russian, which leads one to believe that that stuff came from 385 00:33:08.359 --> 00:33:14.839 the Central Switching Center or elsewhere. But at least their story is quite consistent. 386 00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:20.400 And mister Terrasoft said, you know, the last call that he heard 387 00:33:20.599 --> 00:33:24.480 in which Oswald's name was actually mentioned was the caller that he'd heard a few 388 00:33:24.559 --> 00:33:30.319 days before in another call, So at least that part can be helpful. 389 00:33:30.359 --> 00:33:36.920 But yeah, they're clearly inconsistent. That's one of the things that drove Lopez 390 00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:42.599 nuts because he had to face the fact that the Mexico City Station was giving 391 00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:46.039 its own version of these things, and the Terrasafce said there and the Terra 392 00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:52.519 Sauce were never interviewed. In fact, the CIA blocked the Tero Salls from 393 00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:59.440 being interviewed by the Warren Commission, just as they blocked Durant. So we 394 00:33:59.559 --> 00:34:06.000 have to face the fact that, for whatever reason, the CIA blocked the 395 00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:13.119 primary sources who could have resolved all of our questions, the Terosovs and Duran, 396 00:34:14.440 --> 00:34:21.400 from being approached by or interviewed by the Warrant Commission, which, again, 397 00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:23.719 you know, it just adds to the pile of problems. Here. 398 00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:29.519 Yeah, so it does. And this is why, like I said, 399 00:34:29.559 --> 00:34:32.280 for a long time, I concluded that it doesn't seem to be a reliable 400 00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:38.039 story that he was even really there because outside of it, to my mind, 401 00:34:38.679 --> 00:34:43.480 outside of the fact that somebody had brought a picture of Oswald there, 402 00:34:44.519 --> 00:34:47.360 because he's there's a photograph that ends up there with the you know, along 403 00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:52.280 with the process of him trying to get the passport, right, and there's 404 00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:58.119 this passport photograph that appears to be legitimate, and that's it to me. 405 00:34:58.480 --> 00:35:01.280 Everything else was all up in the air. I brought up the whole thing 406 00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:05.639 about him bringing in the gun uh, you know, into the uh, 407 00:35:05.719 --> 00:35:09.039 into the Russian consulate. Oh and by the way, during one of these 408 00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:13.960 visits or phone calls I forget which I think the consulate was not even open 409 00:35:14.039 --> 00:35:20.480 to the public. Yeah, that the that is uh that relates to the 410 00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:28.599 the so called impersonation call. Neither the neither the Cuban consulate or the Soviet 411 00:35:28.679 --> 00:35:34.840 embassy was open on Saturday, right uh. Now, both the Soviet Guard 412 00:35:35.239 --> 00:35:40.639 and the Soviet personnel at the embassy have stated that Oswald did show up their 413 00:35:40.719 --> 00:35:49.079 embassy on Saturday and got the attention of a guard and and was I won't 414 00:35:49.079 --> 00:35:52.760 say was agitated, like okay, I really have got to see somebody, 415 00:35:52.760 --> 00:35:55.440 it's urgent whatever, And that he did manage, you know, there were 416 00:35:55.519 --> 00:36:01.039 embassy staff there, I mean on a Saturday. Actually a totally different story, 417 00:36:01.079 --> 00:36:06.920 but yeah, that it was closed. What what the other side of 418 00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:10.920 that story is, certainly it's there's that's a reasonable in a story at least 419 00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:19.280 that's consistent the Cuban consulate from whence the telephone call was made after that was 420 00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:23.360 closed, and Sylvia Duran was adamant that the consulate was closed, so was 421 00:36:23.440 --> 00:36:28.440 the every their staff was adamant that it was closed. And Duran of course 422 00:36:28.519 --> 00:36:32.320 was adamant that she had not made a call with Lee Oswald to the Soviet 423 00:36:32.360 --> 00:36:40.480 embassy on that Saturday, which the you know, So again that's just another 424 00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:47.760 you ran into confusion contention at all times in this story because there are other 425 00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:52.360 things going on,

and I have I have things to offer on that that 426 00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:59.920 call. I don't think there's any possibility that that call was not an impersonation, 427 00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:04.280 and the only question is who and why it made it, you know, 428 00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:09.320 And I will get into the fact that actually such a call being made 429 00:37:09.320 --> 00:37:14.719 by the CIA itself would not have been all that unusual. It's referred to 430 00:37:14.760 --> 00:37:20.360 as a pretext call when you're trying to find out and identify. The CIA 431 00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:25.239 had done that on multiplicasions before even Lopez found this out. That if somebody 432 00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:31.599 showed up at the Cuban embassy or the Russian embassy that they couldn't identify, 433 00:37:31.800 --> 00:37:38.159 one of their standard practices was to make a pretext call to the embassy or 434 00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:45.320 consulate, representing that themselves as that person, not naming themselves, but trying 435 00:37:45.320 --> 00:37:49.559 to fish out the name or description or something about the person to help them 436 00:37:49.840 --> 00:37:54.519 a standard pretext call. Okay, so now that we've gone through all this, 437 00:37:57.440 --> 00:38:00.199 you know and some people are listening to this, going geez, how 438 00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:02.800 more confused than I was? All right, let's take a step back. 439 00:38:04.760 --> 00:38:09.159 How do we lay this story out? How would you explain this? And 440 00:38:09.440 --> 00:38:13.079 I know you're going to do this in the book, and you've already talked 441 00:38:13.079 --> 00:38:17.000 about breaking down the recordings and you know what actually happened there and stuff like 442 00:38:17.039 --> 00:38:22.599 that, but give us a general overview of this. Well, yeah, 443 00:38:22.119 --> 00:38:28.239 let's give you Larry's simplistic life is simpler than we tend to make it response, 444 00:38:28.360 --> 00:38:36.239 please Lee Rvy. Oswald had decided, probably as early as Dallas when 445 00:38:36.239 --> 00:38:39.440 he when he left Dallas and went to New Orleans, that his attention was 446 00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:45.199 focused on Cuba. And I think Marina says that his letter writing says that 447 00:38:45.559 --> 00:38:52.519 everything about Oswald says that he had he had transferred his ambitions from the Russian 448 00:38:52.639 --> 00:38:58.280 system to the Cuban system. So Oswall was I don't want to use the 449 00:38:58.280 --> 00:39:01.760 word obsess, but his real as said earlier, when his goal had been 450 00:39:01.800 --> 00:39:06.840 to get into Russia and see it for himself, his goal was to get 451 00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:12.679 to Cuba. So we had have kind of two goals playing here. One 452 00:39:12.760 --> 00:39:17.559 goal it relates to Marina and Russia. The other goal relates to Lee and 453 00:39:19.519 --> 00:39:24.360 Cuba. But so I don't find it hard at all to believe that he 454 00:39:24.519 --> 00:39:30.280 was exploring any options that he had or could find to get to Cuba. 455 00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:36.679 Now, Okay, so, as we just discussed earlier, he's out of 456 00:39:36.679 --> 00:39:38.760 a job, he's at lose ends, he's going to be going someplace. 457 00:39:39.679 --> 00:39:46.639 One of the interesting places in persons he contacts is a fellow in Houston's Uh 458 00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:55.599 that he's come across that he's contacted that is involved with maritime activities, shipping 459 00:39:55.679 --> 00:40:00.840 and that sort of thing. There's evidence that he actually even did that in 460 00:40:00.920 --> 00:40:06.840 New Orleans. Speculation would be that he was exploring the possibility of getting a 461 00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:10.960 job on a ship or with a line that ultimately would take him to Cuba. 462 00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:15.079 I mean, he couldn't fly there directly. That was not permitted. 463 00:40:15.079 --> 00:40:20.880 It was illegal to go there directly. Even his passport is marked, his 464 00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:25.159 new passport, he's got that it's not legal to travel directly to Cuba. 465 00:40:25.239 --> 00:40:31.039 The only way that you can get to Cuba is to go overseas or offshore 466 00:40:31.599 --> 00:40:36.559 and come back to Cuba. You can't go there directly from the US. 467 00:40:36.639 --> 00:40:40.719 You're going to have to go indirectly. And quite frankly, Oswall was quite 468 00:40:40.719 --> 00:40:49.320 aware of the fact because this was standard FPCC practice. FPC student members had 469 00:40:49.360 --> 00:40:53.719 on a number of occasions managed to go to and from Cuba through Mexico City. 470 00:40:53.920 --> 00:41:00.519 The standard travel route from the US was to go to Mexico City and 471 00:41:00.599 --> 00:41:06.400 get permission to enter Cuba and go to Cuba that way. So one of 472 00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:12.280 one of the options that was obviously facing him was going to Mexico and seeing 473 00:41:12.360 --> 00:41:16.079 if he couldn't get into Cuba staying in Cuba would be a challenge, but 474 00:41:16.360 --> 00:41:22.079 you know, he's been through this whole thing before he went to Russia and 475 00:41:22.280 --> 00:41:27.480 ended ended up going through the drama of actually slitting his own wrist to stay 476 00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:31.159 in Russia. Uh, you know, he's probably prepared. He's he's got 477 00:41:31.159 --> 00:41:36.000 a much better resume now to go to Cuba than he had to go to 478 00:41:36.079 --> 00:41:42.119 Russia. So just as part of a backstory is jumping up up point the 479 00:41:42.119 --> 00:41:46.880 fact that he would you would find him exercising an option to go to Mexico 480 00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:53.039 City to try to use that as a transit point to Cuba, leveraging Marina's 481 00:41:53.079 --> 00:41:59.760 return, you know. And actually what he what he told the Cubans was 482 00:41:59.840 -->

00:42:01.840 that that's why he wanted to be there. He wanted to get to Cuba 483 00:42:02.039 --> 00:42:08.519 as part of his effort to return his wife and probably himself to Russia. 484 00:42:08.719 --> 00:42:15.039 That's the story that was the story started to sell and presented at both the 485 00:42:15.039 --> 00:42:20.119 consulate and the embassy. This would be an intermediary step to get her back 486 00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:23.079 home. Now, as to whether he remains in Cuba or not, that's 487 00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:27.880 up in the air, but he might be more welcome there because of his 488 00:42:28.039 --> 00:42:31.599 FPCC activities et cetera. This seems to be the thing. And he's an 489 00:42:31.639 --> 00:42:37.960 American quite frankly, in Cuba, he can be an American defector with some 490 00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:40.880 credentials. I mean, he has been an activist, he's been a champion 491 00:42:40.920 --> 00:42:45.960 in Cuba. If he could get in Cuba, he's got a marketable story, 492 00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:51.039 much more than when he went to Russia. Right, So he could 493 00:42:51.039 --> 00:42:54.800 be a notable as somebody who defected from the US to Cuba. You know, 494 00:42:54.800 --> 00:43:00.800 it's a smaller place, bottom line. Okay, so all of this 495 00:43:00.920 --> 00:43:05.719 starts to make more sense. But what about the proof itself that he's there? 496 00:43:05.840 --> 00:43:08.760 Right? What do we have to work with here? Well, one 497 00:43:08.840 --> 00:43:13.679 of the interesting things is when we asked that question, as I said, 498 00:43:14.320 --> 00:43:17.360 the proof that we have there, as we have a whole series of correspondents 499 00:43:19.480 --> 00:43:24.960 internally within Mexico City, back to CIA headquarters, ciadquarters, back to Mexico 500 00:43:25.039 --> 00:43:31.000 City, copied to the FBI, several other agencies. All this happens before 501 00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:38.719 the assassination. So I guess in terms of we demand a new we demand 502 00:43:38.760 --> 00:43:43.599 a lot of evidence that was there because we all kinds of questions have been 503 00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:45.519 raised, like, well, if he was there, white show, but 504 00:43:46.039 --> 00:43:51.800 the actual paper trail, if you want to ask that that paper trail was 505 00:43:51.880 --> 00:43:59.639 there and in place and in multiple offices. Weeks before the assassination, there's 506 00:43:59.679 --> 00:44:07.000 paper spread around in a dozen different places talking about le Oswald being in Mexico 507 00:44:07.039 --> 00:44:15.400 City and having been identified in Mexico City. The only time that it gets 508 00:44:15.480 --> 00:44:17.400 to be a thing is after the fact. Everybody, well, of course, 509 00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:22.440 we want to have proof. And the problem is then the question arises, 510 00:44:23.039 --> 00:44:28.159 oh, well, people said that there were tapes and there were other 511 00:44:28.239 --> 00:44:34.199 people and he was impersonated. Then I'm just saying before the assassination this wasn't 512 00:44:34.199 --> 00:44:38.320 a real question. The paper trail shows that he was there. After it, 513 00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:44.239 the whole thing is flummixed for a variety of reasons. What evidence do 514 00:44:44.360 --> 00:44:47.719 we really have that he was absolutely there? Well, okay, we do 515 00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:53.480 have, and everyone can choose not to accept any or all of this, 516 00:44:54.039 --> 00:45:01.559 but we do have a transit visa application the the Cubans collected from him with 517 00:45:01.679 --> 00:45:07.039 his picture on it. Okay, there's no doubt about that that is there. 518 00:45:07.840 --> 00:45:13.360 There are all that doubts about the picture. Although the sweater in the 519 00:45:13.400 --> 00:45:19.199 picture was shown to have been in his possession, Marina had not ever seen 520 00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:22.960 that picture before. She recognized the clothing when she was asked about it. 521 00:45:23.559 --> 00:45:28.320 What other evidence do we have there was there? There were a variety of 522 00:45:28.440 --> 00:45:34.639 little bits and pieces of normal tourist type things that you would carry back from 523 00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:42.320 Mexico to Texas, including a gift from Marina. He didn't disguise the fact 524 00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:47.119 that he had been in Mexico from her. Now again, you choose not 525 00:45:47.239 --> 00:45:51.760 to believe her or you, and you can believe all those little bits and 526 00:45:51.800 --> 00:45:57.199 trinkets and you know, souvenir trash that you carried back from your trip and 527 00:45:57.239 --> 00:46:00.519 throw away after you know, a couple of months, was all planted afterwards. 528 00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:05.679 I mean, you know, but that you would have to believe that 529 00:46:05.880 --> 00:46:10.719 all of that, those little bits and pieces were collected and planted after the 530 00:46:10.760 --> 00:46:19.159 fact. So I guess that's part of the problem. What we don't have 531 00:46:20.159 --> 00:46:23.239 u for any tourist's let's just say it with you, I've been to Mexico. 532 00:46:23.920 --> 00:46:28.199 You know, can I prove that I was there because I still kept 533 00:46:28.199 --> 00:46:32.719 the tourist trash? Okay, I keep everything, but we're asking, you 534 00:46:32.760 --> 00:46:38.079 know, where the pictures where the tapes. It's really kind of unusual to 535 00:46:38.199 --> 00:46:46.639 ask for that level of verification, especially when when Oswald was interviewed and when 536 00:46:46.679 --> 00:46:52.920 Marina was interviewed after the assassination, the interviewers are asking both of them about 537 00:46:52.920 --> 00:47:00.320 Mexico. It's not like nobody knew about Mexico hours later. Mexico was an 538 00:47:00.440 --> 00:47:07.679 established fact. All this confusion and circumlation it just happens after the fact. 539

00:47:07.679 --> 00:47:14.039 But in the hours after the assassination, there was absolutely no doubt that Lee 540 00:47:14.119 --> 00:47:19.159 Harvey Oswell had been in Mexico. What was in doubt was what was going 541 00:47:19.280 --> 00:47:23.679 on around him in Mexico. That's what Hoover was worried about. It's like 542 00:47:24.360 --> 00:47:30.719 with somebody impersonating him doing things there. That's what like over the weekend. 543 00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:36.079 You know, I both know. The real worry about Oswa was in Mexico 544 00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:42.639 came from the Gilbert or Overado story, which says is coming from a CIA 545 00:47:42.800 --> 00:47:46.719 source saying he wasn't just he was here for real, There's no doubt about 546 00:47:46.760 --> 00:47:52.440 that, and he took money to kill the president. And our source says 547 00:47:52.480 --> 00:47:55.760 that he heard him, and he has so much detail. He can describe 548 00:47:55.800 --> 00:47:59.760 the girl that talked to him, the man that talked to him. He 549 00:47:59.800 --> 00:48:02.320 can give you the name of her passport. He can tell you where she 550 00:48:02.480 --> 00:48:07.719 lives. You know, that's what was wearying where Itchington d C and like 551 00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:16.639 the days after the assassination, because that's explosive, right So, and Mexico 552 00:48:16.760 --> 00:48:21.880 City was supporting it. Think about this again, at the time, the 553 00:48:21.960 --> 00:48:29.280 ambassador, the CIA station chief, and David Phillips were all supporting that story. 554 00:48:29.639 --> 00:48:34.719 And David Phillips would go on to support that story even in his testimony 555 00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:39.519 to the HSCA and even in multiple books he wrote after the fact. So 556 00:48:39.559 --> 00:48:45.400 again we're faced to we want proof, whereas you know, those guys just 557 00:48:45.480 --> 00:48:52.559 wanted to use it, right right. So, look we've gone almost an 558 00:48:52.559 --> 00:48:55.320 hour here, okay, And I know it's a it's easy to do because 559 00:48:55.360 --> 00:49:00.599 there was so much packed into this and so much to question. I think 560 00:49:00.639 --> 00:49:04.800 it's an adequate point to actually stop and say, okay, look we have 561 00:49:05.039 --> 00:49:10.599 established here Oswald is in Mexico City. Now, as for what he did, 562 00:49:10.760 --> 00:49:15.320 we started to cover that. But what does this all mean? How 563 00:49:15.320 --> 00:49:17.920 did it come out? And how does it come out after the assassination? 564 00:49:20.039 --> 00:49:24.280 The back and forth. Hoover's asking questions of the CIA. He doesn't feel 565 00:49:24.320 --> 00:49:29.679 like they're being straight with him. I think all of that is what we 566 00:49:29.679 --> 00:49:34.000 should cover the next time we get together, and I would put that all 567 00:49:34.159 --> 00:49:39.360 under just like the title that you just gave. The CIA lied to us

568 00:49:39.440 --> 00:49:45.119 about Mexico City, which is what Hoover said, and that's something we can 569 00:49:45.199 --> 00:49:52.239 absolutely run through and is responsible. What we cannot do is we cannot do 570 00:49:53.320 --> 00:50:00.320 we cannot trust the information that the CIA provided after the fact, for the 571 00:50:00.360 --> 00:50:05.880 fact is not an issue, but the stuff that is. That's why the 572 00:50:06.159 --> 00:50:13.239 HSCA actually concluded that they could not They were satisfied that Oswald had been at 573 00:50:13.280 --> 00:50:16.920 the consulate and the embassy. They were not satisfied with how he got there, 574 00:50:19.480 --> 00:50:23.760 the details of his movements necessarily you know, in and around the embassies 575 00:50:23.800 --> 00:50:29.639 and consulates. That they were satisfied that he was there, but they did 576 00:50:29.679 --> 00:50:35.159 not trust what the CIA was giving them for the rest of the story. 577 00:50:35.679 --> 00:50:38.800 And they were right not to trust that. And one of the reasons for 578 00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:45.360 that is it's not just what we have to remember is in Mexico City, 579 00:50:45.960 --> 00:50:54.239 the relationship between the CIA and the Mexican police was something amazing. And when 580 00:50:54.280 --> 00:51:00.639 you throw in the CIA telling the Mexican police what to do, they did 581 00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:05.159 like arrest your in and keep her income Yuoncado. Then you have to raise 582 00:51:05.199 --> 00:51:12.280 the issue of what else did they interfere with? Did they control what travel 583 00:51:12.360 --> 00:51:16.119 records? You know, bus records, hotel records, was any of that 584 00:51:16.360 --> 00:51:22.000 you know managed because it really all came through the Mexican police, and that's 585 00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:24.880 where we have to go next. The FBI can't do that, They have 586 00:51:25.000 --> 00:51:30.239 to work with the Mexican police. So there's every reason to suspect that. 587 00:51:31.159 --> 00:51:37.679 What I'm not trying to do is come down and say we fully understand where 588 00:51:37.719 --> 00:51:42.280 Oswald was and how he got there and everything that happened, because there's good 589 00:51:42.320 --> 00:51:46.400 reason to question some of that data which is inconsistent, you know, and 590 00:51:47.480 --> 00:51:52.440 that came from the Mexicans themselves. You know, it could have been inconsistent 591 00:51:52.480 --> 00:51:59.400 because of their record keeping quite honestly, their record keeping not all that fantastic, 592 00:52:00.559 --> 00:52:06.400 or by the DFS interference, like the you know, CIS says we 593 00:52:06.840 --> 00:52:10.960 need this, we need to go collect a consistent set of of travel documents. 594 00:52:10.960 --> 00:52:15.480 So nobody raises any questions, right, okay, right, what do 595 00:52:15.599 --> 00:52:17.159 we have to erase? What do we have? Yeah? So yeah, 596 00:52:17.360 --> 00:52:22.639 I think I think if you just if you just can't we can't trust the 597 00:52:22.639 --> 00:52:25.920 Siahai in Mexico City. Is the next step? No, absolutely true, 598 00:52:25.960 --> 00:52:29.719 and I think we we we got to begin the next time you and I 599 00:52:29.760 --> 00:52:35.039 get together with the bus trip. Because here's the problem. Right away, 600 00:52:36.440 --> 00:52:38.639 you'd think, okay, let's figure out how the guy got here. Did 601 00:52:38.679 --> 00:52:44.519 he take public you know, something akin to a public transit was somebody giving 602 00:52:44.559 --> 00:52:46.599 him a ride straight there? I mean, how did he get there? 603 00:52:46.679 --> 00:52:52.519 Right? And the answer we start with there, it begins the problems, 604 00:52:52.880 --> 00:52:57.280 doesn't it. It absolutely begins the problem. And I'm not going to say 605 00:52:57.280 --> 00:53:04.000 that it's possible to resolve that problem. I think that we don't know how 606 00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:07.440 he got there. I think there are internal conflicts in the information. One 607 00:53:07.480 --> 00:53:14.400 of the things that there were internal contradictions. Even if you go back to 608 00:53:14.440 --> 00:53:17.960 the first days the newspapers stories after the first couple of weeks, you'll find 609 00:53:19.000 --> 00:53:24.639 a couple of stories. One story from a passport agent US passport agent at 610 00:53:24.639 --> 00:53:30.920 the Mexican border who says, oh, he came across with other people, 611 00:53:30.679 --> 00:53:35.039 right, you know, I remember it well, he wasn't by himself. 612 00:53:36.119 --> 00:53:37.599 Another one says, oh, yeah, I saw him, he left, 613 00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:43.920 he left in a car with other people. And it's kind of in a 614 00:53:43.960 --> 00:53:49.800 way reminds you the fact, it reminds me of what we encountered in the 615 00:53:49.800 --> 00:53:57.199 school book depository when the school book Depository company book Depository company manager says, 616 00:53:57.519 --> 00:54:02.039 oh I saw Oswald right there in the entryway the book depository, right at 617 00:54:02.039 --> 00:54:07.239 the time of the shooting. Oh okay. And you never see that story 618 00:54:07.320 --> 00:54:10.119 that's in the in the first day paper out of Dallas, and you never 619 00:54:10.159 --> 00:54:15.039 see that story again, right, You never see these passport agent stories again. 620 00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:21.480 So we have to also cope with the fact that you know, there 621 00:54:21.480 --> 00:54:27.199 are bits of fieces that don't support the official story that just vanish, all 622 00:54:27.320 --> 00:54:30.360 right. And the thing is that you would think it would be very simple 623 00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:37.400 when you have such a highly again surveiled area Mexico City, especially a highly 624 00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:42.280 surveiled area. You got the CIA definitely having its interest.

I mean, 625 00:54:42.639 --> 00:54:45.960 we have a station there that is highly active, well staffed, right, 626 00:54:47.519 --> 00:54:52.800 all of this going on, and the FBI should have access to things we 627 00:54:52.079 --> 00:54:57.880 have a cozy relationship with, as you said, the Mexican I mean the 628 00:54:57.920 --> 00:55:02.960 Mexican authorities. This should not be at least at least the CIA does. 629 00:55:04.079 --> 00:55:08.760 Yeah, absolutely, we should have. Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with that 630 00:55:08.840 --> 00:55:13.599 at all. We should have all sorts of stuff that we don't have. 631 00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:20.480 We should have, and the fact that we don't, to me is a 632 00:55:20.559 --> 00:55:23.599 flection on questions that have to be asked about the CIA, right, and 633 00:55:24.280 --> 00:55:29.639 things that we're going on, and why we wouldn't have this information, what 634 00:55:29.679 --> 00:55:32.079 they have to protect, what they have to suppress, what they have to 635 00:55:32.159 --> 00:55:37.320 obfuscate. And to bring one point forward, which kind of is a segue 636 00:55:37.480 --> 00:55:44.320 for us, is we have documents themselves from the CIA that says you people 637 00:55:44.360 --> 00:55:50.079 in Mexico City cannot do certain things because the one thing that we cannot risk 638 00:55:50.480 --> 00:55:55.679 is exposing the extent of our own operation of Mexico City. So one of 639 00:55:55.719 --> 00:56:01.400 the things that we have to have to deal with is their number one charter. 640 00:56:02.320 --> 00:56:06.559 Quite frankly, I had to say this. It doesn't seem to me 641 00:56:06.719 --> 00:56:12.440 like it was the assassination of the president. It was protecting their operations, 642 00:56:12.639 --> 00:56:19.400 whether they're surveillance or political action or dirty tricks or relation with the Mexican president. 643 00:56:19.920 --> 00:56:23.840 I mean, if you surfaced information on this surveillance operation and this central 644 00:56:23.840 --> 00:56:31.079 switching center that exposed the America, the the Mexican president, you could have 645 00:56:31.320 --> 00:56:38.239 a diplomatic nightmare, uh, with the communist in Mexico quite ready to take 646 00:56:38.280 --> 00:56:45.679 advantage of the whole situation. So anyway, we've got a the CIA is 647 00:56:45.719 --> 00:56:49.519 its own motives and its own agendas, right, and then we have to 648 00:56:49.599 --> 00:56:54.440 tackle the interaction between the FBI and the CIA, because here here we go, 649 00:56:54.920 --> 00:57:00.519 Hoover, you know again, with just having dropped that whole lie on 650 00:57:00.599 --> 00:57:07.199 Oswald just before this happens. Strange timing there, right, So I think 651 00:57:07.239 --> 00:57:12.559 we got to open up with the trip to Mexico City yet again, but 652 00:57:12.679 --> 00:57:15.199 from a different angle. Okay, he's there, but we got to figure 653 00:57:15.239 --> 00:57:20.679

out where he stayed, how he got there, and all of that. 654 00:57:20.760 --> 00:57:22.199 And I think we should do that in two weeks from now, will be 655 00:57:22.239 --> 00:57:28.159 good for you. Yeah, absolutely, And just one final kind of commiment 656 00:57:28.199 --> 00:57:30.320 that last than the one thing, the difference that we can note between the 657 00:57:30.400 --> 00:57:36.039 FBI and the CIA. Yes, everybody that if you examined it after the 658 00:57:36.079 --> 00:57:42.199 fact, almost everybody that screwed up with the FBI got sent to boise or 659 00:57:42.239 --> 00:57:47.960 otherwise disciplined in some fashion. Nobody that screwed up with the CIA got disciplined 660 00:57:49.000 --> 00:57:52.599 in any fashion. I always think that's kind of interesting. Yeah, you 661 00:57:52.639 --> 00:57:57.679 know, did did anybody get in trouble for the malfunctioning cameras? Did anybody 662 00:57:57.679 --> 00:58:01.400 get in trouble for the tapes that allege disappeared? Uh? Did anybody? 663 00:58:02.519 --> 00:58:07.760 Seems like no? Uh so what does that indicate? Maybe you're gonna you're 664 00:58:07.760 --> 00:58:12.599 gonna write at your own internal memo that says David Phillips, the head of 665 00:58:12.639 --> 00:58:16.519 your counter intelligence activities in Mexico City, didn't know what was going on with 666 00:58:16.679 --> 00:58:21.920 any of this, so you can't trust him. Shouldn't David Phillips have gotten 667 00:58:22.079 --> 00:58:27.519 like downgraded if you don't know what's happening. Yeah, I would say that, 668 00:58:27.679 --> 00:58:30.719 you know, since one of your primary jobs would be to check on 669 00:58:30.800 --> 00:58:36.559 who's going to the Russian and Cuban uh, you know facilities, and you 670 00:58:36.639 --> 00:58:39.239 have Oh our cameras didn't work. Whoops, we got the wrong guy. 671 00:58:39.960 --> 00:58:44.280 Uh, we're not sure where the tapes went. I don't know. Sounds 672 00:58:44.280 --> 00:58:47.039 to me like either that was the job that they were supposed to do, 673 00:58:47.679 --> 00:58:52.320 in which case, of course there's no discipline. Mixing things up was what 674 00:58:52.360 --> 00:58:57.079 they were supposed to do, or there's something else happening here. But anyway, 675 00:58:57.239 --> 00:59:00.639 we'll we'll leave that for two weeks from that to go further see how 676 00:59:00.679 --> 00:59:05.519 far we can go. And I honestly don't know how far we can go 677 00:59:05.559 --> 00:59:07.760 with it, but we will see and see if we can figure out if 678 00:59:07.760 --> 00:59:13.920 he was actually on the bus or what happened, and see if we can 679 00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:16.559 track and trace the guy who should have shown up like a sore thumb, 680 00:59:17.920 --> 00:59:21.760 you know. Again, one of the things that we will be able to 681 00:59:21.800 --> 00:59:24.000 do for those that are listening, so that he's like, okay, we 682 00:59:24.079 --> 00:59:29.000 will

be able to tell a whole lot more about what was going on inside 683 00:59:29.039 --> 00:59:32.239 the CIA. We may not know a lot more about the bus ride, 684 00:59:32.519 --> 00:59:37.079 but we know a lot more about what was going on inside Mexico City station 685 00:59:37.760 --> 00:59:44.719 and at headquarters and actually at JM Wave, which will become a big part 686 00:59:44.760 --> 00:59:47.119 of the story. Oh yeah, well gee, I wonder why that is, 687 00:59:47.480 --> 00:59:52.119 uh, but we're gonna find out. And also I think we shouldn't 688 00:59:52.119 --> 00:59:58.079 gloss over too quickly the whole thing with the the Mexican Police and their role 689 00:59:58.880 --> 01:00:04.159 in a few to different things that occur here and in the aftermath of it, 690 01:00:04.239 --> 01:00:07.719 and trying to see about people's testimony and all that kind of good stuff. 691 01:00:07.760 --> 01:00:13.159 And can we track down people who do we have arrested or taken into 692 01:00:13.159 --> 01:00:19.599 custody I should say properly, right and why? Okay? Oh? Also 693 01:00:19.800 --> 01:00:23.440 contradictions and people bring this up all the time and used to be very popular 694 01:00:23.440 --> 01:00:29.119 in the documentaries Larry as well, know, the idea that people are describing 695 01:00:29.199 --> 01:00:34.480 different people being Oswald in these places. I mean, at one point, 696 01:00:34.519 --> 01:00:37.880 I don't know, no picture do I see a leeve Rby Oswald where you 697 01:00:37.920 --> 01:00:40.880 can say, you know, he looks like a very light blondehaired guy. 698 01:00:43.800 --> 01:00:47.400 Doesn't work, you know, And one description, the funny thing is one 699 01:00:47.400 --> 01:00:52.239 of those mismatched descriptions does look a lot like the guy who we get the 700 01:00:52.239 --> 01:01:00.159 photographs of that they call the mystery man. Right, somebody actually gave at 701 01:01:00.159 --> 01:01:04.039 the Russian embassy, at the Russian embassy, although where were the pictures taken? 702 01:01:05.800 --> 01:01:08.119 The pictures were taken at the Russian Embassy. Yeah, so I'm just 703 01:01:08.159 --> 01:01:13.159 saying, you have pictures taken there of this guy who's clearly not Lee Rby 704 01:01:13.159 --> 01:01:17.199 Oswald, and this is the guy they described as Lee Rby Oswald. Oh. 705 01:01:17.239 --> 01:01:22.639 Yeah, And I think we can get into the fact that that seems 706 01:01:22.639 --> 01:01:25.280 to have been done for a purpose. See. One of the problems is 707 01:01:25.800 --> 01:01:31.360 that where we get convoluted things that were done for a purpose before the assassination 708 01:01:32.559 --> 01:01:37.920 assume an entirely new context after you know, something that you did that was 709 01:01:37.960 --> 01:01:43.039 perfectly acceptable, there was nobody was ever going to know about. This is 710 01:01:43.280 --> 01:01:49.599 tradecraft, this is practice. It's internal that made perfect sense

before the assassination. 711 01:01:50.719 --> 01:01:55.559 After the assassination is a problem. Yeah, it's explained it because if 712 01:01:55.599 --> 01:02:01.199 you explain it, you expose what you do. And we have to accept 713 01:02:01.199 --> 01:02:06.719 that. That is always an issue. Do we prefer to look stupid or 714 01:02:06.760 --> 01:02:09.760 do we prefer to expose ourselves? And by the way, what does my 715 01:02:09.840 --> 01:02:14.920 boss think about that? Would my boss prefer that I just look like an 716 01:02:14.960 --> 01:02:19.400 idiot or I blow apart his ole operation? Oh? By the way, 717 01:02:19.800 --> 01:02:22.960 and one of the things that we will be talking about in regard to Duran 718 01:02:22.079 --> 01:02:29.840 and others is there were serious ongoing operations with several of these people in the 719 01:02:29.880 --> 01:02:35.880 Cuban consulate that were fully live at the time of the assassination and after the 720 01:02:35.920 --> 01:02:39.599 assassination. So again we have to deal with the fact that you know, 721 01:02:40.719 --> 01:02:45.599 as I said, Hoover wasn't who were, but he didn't really have ongoing 722 01:02:45.719 --> 01:02:51.679 operations. He can discipline anybody when he wants, whenever he wants. The 723 01:02:51.679 --> 01:02:55.039 CIA is a bit of a different boat with especially some of their dirty tricks 724 01:02:55.079 --> 01:03:00.400 blackmail operations, right right. And that's the other fun thing is that also 725 01:03:00.440 --> 01:03:05.960 with the CIA, just as a teaser here, you know, sometimes you 726 01:03:06.079 --> 01:03:13.719 have to implant some disinformation in certain operations because you intend for some of it 727 01:03:13.760 --> 01:03:16.880 to get exposed to a party that you know, you might in a one 728 01:03:16.920 --> 01:03:21.559 dimensional sense think well, this party should never ever get a hold of this 729 01:03:21.679 --> 01:03:28.199 information. But you might intentionally plant disinformation in an information stream, and indeed 730 01:03:28.239 --> 01:03:32.679 pictures of somebody that are definitely not that person could be useful if you're trying 731 01:03:32.719 --> 01:03:43.199 to mislead someone just saying okay, you know, hypothetically, Larry. Yeah, 732 01:03:43.360 --> 01:03:46.199 And we'll continue this discussion in two weeks with Larry Hancock. But once 733 01:03:46.239 --> 01:03:51.159 again, if you go to Larry dash Hancock dot com you'll be able to 734 01:03:51.159 --> 01:03:57.880 follow Larry's work. But we're also looking forward to a book length manuscript on 735 01:03:58.639 --> 01:04:00.599 which, by the way, is it going to be completely published into a 736 01:04:00.639 --> 01:04:03.599 book? Are we sure of that yet? Or oh yeah, it's definitely 737 01:04:03.679 --> 01:04:09.920 a book. It's an edit now it will be a book. I don't 738 01:04:09.960 --> 01:04:15.000 know how long it will be when it's all told, but probably somewhere

between 739 01:04:15.000 --> 01:04:17.400 two hundred and thirty and two hundred and fifty pages, right, And it's 740 01:04:17.760 --> 01:04:24.119 a new look at Oswald. And yeah, this may play a major role 741 01:04:24.679 --> 01:04:28.599 what we're talking about tonight may play a major role in part of the book. 742 01:04:28.880 --> 01:04:31.320 But this is not going to be the whole thing. Just letting you 743 01:04:31.360 --> 01:04:35.559 guys know that, Yeah, this is going to be an interesting reevaluation, 744 01:04:35.840 --> 01:04:44.079 re examination, and a different appraisal if you will, of the historical figure 745 01:04:44.119 --> 01:04:47.000 that is Lee Harvey Oswald. Anything you want to say before we cut this 746 01:04:47.079 --> 01:04:51.440 off for now, And like as I think we'll look forward to to next 747 01:04:51.480 --> 01:04:57.880 week, we can't, as we always can, we can't answer every question. 748 01:04:58.280 --> 01:05:00.800 If we could, you know, this would have been cleared up a 749 01:05:00.840 --> 01:05:03.639 long time ago. But I think one of the things that we'll be able 750 01:05:03.639 --> 01:05:10.000 to draw it in the conversation is maybe a better understanding of what we can't. 751 01:05:10.239 --> 01:05:14.559 You know, what what has made this so complex and so confusing and 752 01:05:15.320 --> 01:05:19.719 raise so many questions, And part of it we've discussed tonight, either somebody 753 01:05:19.840 --> 01:05:25.079 wasn't doing their job at all, or there's more going on here than meets 754 01:05:25.119 --> 01:05:29.599 the eye. And what we need to talk about is there's probably more going 755 01:05:29.639 --> 01:05:32.719 on than meets the eye. And you know, it's better to look stupid 756 01:05:32.800 --> 01:05:39.079 than fill in the blank. Well, right, And I suspect that when 757 01:05:39.119 --> 01:05:43.159 it comes to the CIA, you know, much like with many other failures 758 01:05:43.199 --> 01:05:47.840 of intelligence, right that occur in other circumstances. It seems to me like, 759 01:05:48.000 --> 01:05:55.079 yeah, it's acceptable to appear incompetent briefly, so long as your bosses 760 01:05:55.159 --> 01:06:00.000 know what's really going on. It doesn't matter if on the surface it looks 761 01:05:59.679 --> 01:06:03.280 in competent ridiculous, you know, as if somebody didn't do their job, 762 01:06:03.679 --> 01:06:09.599 because maybe they were doing their job. And that's the difference. The CIA 763 01:06:09.679 --> 01:06:14.119 plays the long game always, which I hate. The FBI tends to play 764 01:06:14.119 --> 01:06:17.559 short games, right, But the CIA, it always plays these long, 765 01:06:17.800 --> 01:06:24.000 complex games and along the way, if they blow apart at any point, 766 01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:29.000 it's very embarrassing. But they're always looking at long games. And speaking of 767 01:06:29.039 --> 01:06:30.800 the long game, like I said, I think we're gonna we're

gonna start 768 01:06:30.880 --> 01:06:34.639 with, yeah, the bus trip. And oh, by the way, 769 01:06:34.840 --> 01:06:41.760 you know what about the FBI and what was it that they were figuring out 770 01:06:41.840 --> 01:06:45.800 regarding this, and so on and so forth. So I think we'll start 771 01:06:45.840 --> 01:06:48.519 there next next time we get together. But in the meantime, yeah, 772 01:06:48.679 --> 01:06:54.440 this is going to be a continuing conversation I look forward to and by the 773 01:06:54.480 --> 01:06:59.239 way, I've gotten a little peak at some of what Larry has written regarding 774 01:06:59.239 --> 01:07:02.159 this, and I can't wait to see the whole thing done, because it's 775 01:07:02.199 --> 01:07:06.199 going to be Yeah, I think you just want to get it finished. 776 01:07:06.599 --> 01:07:13.840 But to me, this is going to be a brand new and unique furtherance 777 01:07:14.559 --> 01:07:18.639 of the study when it comes to the historical figure known as Lee Harvey Oswald. 778 01:07:19.039 --> 01:07:23.719 Now, are we going to solve the assassination with this, Maybe not, 779 01:07:24.039 --> 01:07:28.239 but I think we're gonna get a more honest appraisal once again of the 780 01:07:28.599 --> 01:07:31.920 historical character that we know as Lee Rby Oswald. I think there's been some 781 01:07:32.119 --> 01:07:39.199 mistakes made due to the lack of information in some cases, and due to 782 01:07:39.760 --> 01:07:45.400 people cozying up to certain pieces of information and refusing to look at the rest, 783 01:07:45.519 --> 01:07:48.559 the entirety the context, if you will, But that's never a problem 784 01:07:48.719 --> 01:07:54.559 for Larry Hancock anyway. The O'Kelly effect is done for tonight. Like I 785 01:07:54.559 --> 01:07:57.559 said, We'll get back together with Larry in two weeks, but I'll be 786 01:07:57.599 --> 01:08:02.039 back tomorrow night with more anyway, Larry Dash Handcock dot com. I highly 787 01:08:02.079 --> 01:08:06.480 recommend all of his books, read them, follow Larry, and you'll hear 788 01:08:06.559 --> 01:08:18.399 from them again in two weeks. On this show, Wall Stream, Window 789 01:08:18.560 --> 01:08:30.079 dot dot, Gold Silver, the stock Market, Wall Street, Window dott 790 01:08:30.119 --> 01:08:34.359 Perhaps you're invested deeply, Perhaps you're not in deep enough. Maybe you're thinking 791 01:08:34.359 --> 01:08:40.720 about getting started Wall Street, Windows dot Com, Doo dot com. Michael 792 01:08:40.760 --> 01:08:45.680 Swanson, the brilliant author of the War State, understood these trends professionally for 793 01:08:45.800 --> 01:08:49.439 many years, and now he gives you the benefit of his knowledge. Wall 794 01:08:49.560 --> 01:08:57.439 streetdo dot dot go there, now go there, now go there. Now. 795 01:08:57.760 --> 01:09:00.880 This is James Corban at Corport dot com and you're listening to the olly 796 01:09:00.920 --> 01:09:03.600 affected o'helly dot com co. You've express my callers. Tools there anyone else 797 01:09:03.600 --> 01:09:06.479 who happens to get on the air Jelly dot com if not necessarily reflect the 798 01:09:06.560 --> 01:09:10.520 views of Jelly dot com or Chuck o'chilli, and we are not responsible. 799 01:09:10.560 --> 01:09:14.119 We're getting stupidy, which might ensued. Thank you, o Chilly dot com 800 01:09:14.199 --> 01:09:17.199 go ahead, call it the truth about the JFA assassination. Right, Well, 801 01:09:17.239 --> 01:09:20.920 what do you want to know any Baker's wild claim Oswald girlfriends he knew 802 01:09:21.000 --> 01:09:25.520 Ruby and Barry answer weapons? Really, I imagine I could claim I have 803 01:09:25.600 --> 01:09:28.960 four wheels. It doesn't make me a wagon. But okay, Oswald was 804 01:09:29.000 --> 01:09:31.079 on the building and trying to prevent the murder of John Kennedy. Come on 805 01:09:31.159 --> 01:09:35.159 now, has a real effort on the DAFA assassination. Blaim. Go to 806 01:09:35.239 --> 01:09:41.800 Amazon dot com enter Judith Baker in her own words. You'll get the results 807 01:09:41.840 --> 01:09:45.600 for a digital copy of a book where Walt Brown utilizes her own words and 808 01:09:45.680 --> 01:09:50.680 the known evidence in the case to get at well a different perspective. Let's 809 01:09:50.720 --> 01:09:56.199 say you can get Judith Barry Baker in her own words from the author himself, 810 01:09:56.319 --> 01:10:01.640 signed if you request it by contacting doctor Brown at ki JFK at aol 811 01:10:01.680 --> 01:10:06.000 dot com. It's a fun book and it actually dissects the many, many 812 01:10:06.079 --> 01:10:15.600 fantastic claims Judithbary Baker in her own words in Denial the Secret Wars with air 813 01:10:15.680 --> 01:10:21.000 Strikes and Tanks by Larry Hancock. Secret Wars became a staple of US covert 814 01:10:21.079 --> 01:10:27.880 operations and are still happening today. Larryhancock's book In Denial rips the cover off 815 01:10:28.000 --> 01:10:30.520 many of them, using new files. It exposes things about the Bay of 816 01:10:30.600 --> 01:10:34.680 Pigs that no one has ever written about before. It shows why it really 817 01:10:34.680 --> 01:10:39.880 failed and why the United States did not earn from it. It also shows 818 01:10:39.880 --> 01:10:44.760 why other countries today are doing secret operations with more success. This is the 819 01:10:44.760 --> 01:10:48.640 book that puts what some want to deny into the light. In Denial, 820 01:10:49.000 --> 01:10:56.560 secret wars with air strikes and tanks Larry Hancock. For more information go to 821 01:10:56.640 --> 01:11:00.640 Larry hyphen Handcock dot com. Pick up your copy of Vin Denial at Amazon 822 01:11:00.760 --> 01:14:00.800 dot com. In digital or physical schools sad side students that sust