Pełna transkrypcja odcinka E69: Understanding the full scope of the Loan Programs Office with Arpita Bhattacharyya

it, because I think it's fascinating. Nick: Nice. Yeah, I may well take you up on that. I think before we start to dig into some of the work at the LPO, which I'm really excited to, maybe even just for listeners who aren't as familiar with all of the different sort of sides of government that you've touched and that are instrumental in accelerating deployment of the IRA and stuff like that, maybe just even a little bit of disambiguation of what some of these different offices are. and what they focus on would probably be something that even I'd find helpful, but I'm sure that listeners would find helpful. Arpita: So I think quick step back on civics lesson of like why government exists, because sometimes you have to have that zoom out to say the reason you want government to invest is that private capital markets alone would not be making investments that are going to be critical to our national security, to big existential threats like climate change, to American competitiveness. Department of Energy really tackles all of those pieces, all the way from basic R&D to commercially ready technologies here at the Loan Programs Office. So that's what I have come to love about this department. It's like every single valley of death, every single technology readiness level, there's an office to support you. So some of the whether it be COVID vaccines, or some of the early stage battery technologies, early stage solar came from some of our national labs, which is funded by the Office of Science. So really, you know, some of that basic research getting into actually technology that's made all the way there. Then you have the Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Office that used to be sort of the pillar of both applied technologies as well as a bit more of that deployment arm. What we did when I was in the Office of the Deputy Secretary is we realized that for the amount of money that was going to be coming to the Department of Energy, we really need to build out this deployment arm. So we created the full undersecretary of infrastructure, and we now have offices that are a little bit more further down the technology readiness level. Think of first-of-a-kind demonstrations and Office of Clean Energy demonstrations, manufacturing energy supply chains, that's also a little bit further along, as well as Office of Indian Energy, which is a deployment arm of the funding that we have going to tribes. We have Deployment Office. Obviously, the grid is such a huge backbone, and we're not going to get anywhere without doing those fundamental investments into the grid. So, a lot of those might be right before you are able to get to commercial scale, before you've demonstrated. Once you've demonstrated, we get to come in, Loan Programs Office. I did miss one key office in there that threads this together, which is ARPA-E. So, think of ARPA-E co-funding with Series A, you know, pre-seed investments as well to really launch, take the technology from the lab into these other technology readiness levels. And it's so cool to see all that happening. And one of my big goals in this role has been like, we have to stitch this all together so it all works. And some will have the investments in RPE and won't need us later, which is great. That's the whole point. All of these offices should be working towards leveraging private capital and actually creating the market for a lot of these clean energy technologies. Nick: Yeah, it's a really great point to return to. I think when folks look at, for instance, solar in 2024, it's something that, you know, obviously is at a level where private market capital has picked it up and sort of run wild with it. But if you trace the origins of it back to the 50s or even earlier, earlier is something that government was extremely, whether in the US or also in places like Germany and Australia and China later on, it's something that government was extremely involved in supporting and helping get through some of those initial phases before it was really ready to go to bigger markets. It's like there were some early commercial markets of I don't know, putting solar panels on spacecraft as a viable way to, you know, produce electricity out in space. But beyond that, it wasn't something that was being put on roofs or anything like that back then. Arpita: Exactly. And it's so fun to see that, you know, solar technology that was spawned there, you know, is now being funded through some of our projects, which is like really cool to see that full life cycle. Nick: Yeah, so let's talk a little bit more about the work that you're leading in 2024. And I liked what you said about part of it being, you know, some of the collaborative effort and trying to stitch how all these organizations work together. But yeah, I would be excited to just hear about what you're working most closely on, what that work looks like, and what you're most excited about. Arpita: So my role here as Chief Climate Officer is to figure out that this huge portfolio and pipeline that we have, over $200 billion in deals across technology spaces, what are some of the common barriers that slow us down in terms of deployment? And so a couple of these things I think folks have heard about, whether it be NEPA, that is a very important act to help protect communities, environmental spaces, to think about the impact that any development does have on lands that we are building this huge infrastructure on. So it's super important. But there are also, we've come such a long way in thinking about how do we think about commercial solar development or some of these established technologies to do it in a safe way that ensures that the community is bought in, that we're working together on it. So we work closely with Permanent Interior as well as our BLM colleagues. to really think through how do we ensure that the process that we have for NEPA makes sense for the companies and the scale that we're trying to reach for climate. The

other one will be tied together with all of the administration priorities around good paying jobs. So we work really closely with the Department of Labor as we're thinking about all of the battery manufacturing money that we've put out, the huge loans there, and making sure these projects are coming with really good jobs. But all of this needs a lot of coordination because the Department of Energy received a lot of money through the bipartisan infrastructure law and Inflation Reduction Act, but a lot of these agencies didn't. And then I took on temporary stewardship of our tribal energy finance program over the last six months. And the key there, and I know we're going to talk about it more, was to really prove out this program. And it's been an exciting ride to be able to take this great team that we built and really push towards the outcomes that we wanted, including getting our first conditional commitment out for the Viejas tribe. Nick: On the first point too, I think it's quite interesting. I think from the outside looking in, sometimes folks who are, you know, deeply conscious and concerned about climate issues and also conscious of all the different challenges that we face right now in terms of scaling infrastructure and accelerating decarbonization in the United States, they see some of the headline numbers around how much money there is to deploy. And then sometimes they look at what has been allocated and they say, gee, I wish like the LPO could move more quickly or what have you, you know, whatever the potential kind of frame of the curiosity or the question is. But, you know, two things that you mentioned stood out to me. For one, as we've sort of hit on, the coordination across agencies is its own major effort, but also not purely just thinking about how can we build new infrastructure as quickly as possible and decarbonize as quickly as possible, but also all these other variables that are important to consider, like what is the community level impact beyond, you know, purely, is this gonna reduce greenhouse gas emissions somewhere? Things like, is it actually good for the community that whatever infrastructure, say a transmission line might run through, is it gonna create jobs? Or is this gonna be another case where the community feels like it's sort of getting railroaded and not getting as much benefit out of it as they might like or should, frankly? Arpita: Yes, agreed. And we have this really big mandate. I think the Biden administration, and all our policymakers came in with this very large ambition to not only yes, reduce emissions, but renew our nation's infrastructure, rebuild domestic manufacturing, create millions of jobs, address climate change, and then increase our competitiveness, and then at the same time, ensure that all communities that have been disadvantaged by the energy transition in the past are able to actually participate in this clean energy transition. And that is a huge mandate. And it's really difficult, but I think we are chipping away at it. And like the thing that keeps me up at night is that last piece, because for me, it's both we should, in the communities that we're actually putting projects, we need to work with those communities. So that's absolutely a part of it. But then also coming from the private sector and thinking of all the complexity and expertise for these really complicated financial structures, you know, whether it be like tax equity or taking advantage of these seven credits or these, you know, let's match this grant with this other USDA program, all of that financing and the stacking and how to do that efficiently. There's a sort of small group of people who know how to do this well. And how are we actually going to get all the communities who should be like co-investors in this transition to both like understand a lot of those mechanisms or partner with folks who are able to help them wade through this amazing opportunity, but really complicated. And I would love, love if we as a federal government and we owe this to the public, we're able to lay out how this all works together much better, but we are so heads down getting the money out. So I think it'll be, I know it'll shake out, But I think we're going to need more partners who are able to bring in, whether it be tribes, whether it be other communities or a diverse set of investors to come in and be part of this. Otherwise, it's going to be sort of the same players figuring out the financial instruments to continue to be the ones who are able to take advantage of that. And I think we're going to have to keep thinking about how to help communities understand the opportunity. Nick: Yeah, it's interesting how often in my, it's kind of an interesting dichotomy, but how often in my exploration and research and storytelling, I come across that similar conclusion of like at the end of the day, sometimes it is really small teams of people who understand all of the intricacies of any given project or any given process sufficiently well to be able to do it in a diligent way. That's also not to say that to your point, there aren't ways to then kind of combine forces between those groups of small teams that might be developing a technology or know how to finance something with lots of other folks and kind of broaden the conversation. I think, you know, it's a great opportunity now to shift into talking to, you know, you've mentioned how to thoughtfully do all this work and still be responsive to the needs and what, you know, some previously disadvantaged communities deserve. And I think talking more about the work that you've done with tribes and with projects on that front recently is a great way to kind of provide people with concrete examples of what that work looks like. So yeah, why don't we transition a little bit into talking about the Viejas project and how some of that work came together and what you're excited about on the heels of it, because I'm imagining it

can also stand as sort of an example that can ideally be copied to success in other areas. Arpita: I think it can and very excited to talk about this project. So to do a quick zoom up and back about the Department of Energy and our history with tribes, I started to learn about this as I traveled with the deputy secretary meetings tribes across the country, particularly at our nuclear waste sites. The Department of Energy came into being with the Manhattan Project and everything that came after that. Many of our labs have a very proud history of the research that they were able to do and continue to do on this new energy transition. However, we have to grapple with the history of the way that tribes were treated in that process and the ongoing conversations we have with tribes across our department. And so take that lens and then think about coming to tribes with like, hey, do y'all want a loan from us? It's a hard thing to think about and really make the case for, especially when there's a lot of grant money out there for tribes in the clean energy space as well. So it's a super interesting program in that way that has so much potential and we're really trying to tap into that potential, but also just making sure that we're not doing, what is that square peg round hole? Like, hey, you want to do this project? This is definitely the solution. It might not be, but let's figure out together what the solution is. It's just a little bit of context. Nick: Yeah, great. Arpita: A little bit more on the history of the legislation. So we first got authority for this program. It was called then the Tribal Energy Loan Guarantee Program. In 2005, we got appropriations in 2017. And then we had $2 billion of authority there. And then the Inflation Reduction Act took us all the way up to $20 billion. Wow. So we have $20 billion for projects that can be on or off tribal land. We, there's nuances of the ownership structures that go along with whether it's on or off tribal land, but it is very much for tribes. And I think what is really interesting about it too, is it doesn't have an innovation requirement. So our main bread and butter program, we call it Title 17. It is essentially what you think of when you think of the Loan Programs Office, the one that funded Tesla, the one that does like, right after you've actually demonstrated your technology, we're here to actually build the bridge to bankability. So we're here to get you to that big scaling up. And that has been what the loan program's office is traditionally done. The Tribal Energy Finance Program, it does not need to be something that is being scaled up for the first time. It can be solar and storage, and it can be any existing technology. So it really does open up the door for us to be able to fund technologies that are ready to go. with tribes leading the way. So with the Viejas microgrid project, this is a $72.8 million loan guarantee of a solar and storage microgrid in Alpine, California for the Viejas tribe. It's going to be about 15 megawatts of solar as well as 38 megawatt hours of battery storage. And it's We're really excited about it because one of the cool things about this structure is that the developer, who is our borrower, they're called Indian Energy, they are a developer that is a wholly owned entity of a couple of tribes. So a couple tribes came together to put in investment to this developer, and now they are helping build projects for other tribes. And the tribe has assigned a PPA property disagreement with the developer. So really exciting structure because there's multiple tribes involved. And what I think is really great about this is it really makes the case for these higher load casinos that need 24 seven type power. If you're able to combine that microgrid, battery, solar, and storage, there's a lot to unlock here. So this will be both providing electricity to their casino, as well as some other hospitality and other things on their land that is able to free up capital for them to use for other things, other priorities the tribe has. So we're really excited about it. And what we're trying to do is like you know, we this was our first loan ever, right? This made the program real. And we're really excited about it. But what we need to do is really templatize this, right? You want to come do a solar and storage project, we are here for you, we can do it faster. Let's see if we can like move together for these proven technologies. And so It's both an internal push and external push. Internally, we have to get our team that's really excited about doing due diligence on technologies that are like new to the market and digging really deep and all that to say, hey, solar storage, you know, it doesn't need as much due diligence, perhaps as a first of a kind, you know, hydrogen type project that we've never seen before. So doing the external push to move us along to a different model of like how to go a bit faster. And then externally, we have to prove out that for these high load centers, solar and storage does make sense in certain parts of the country. And that this is a really good resilience play. It's a sovereignty play. And Jigger, my boss, who's the director of Loan Programs Office, we went to the Native American Financial Officers Association Conference earlier this year to really launch this new initiative to say, hey, bring your projects specifically on high load, solar and storage, and then let's talk through how we make this happen. That being said, we will look at every technology for tribes. We're seeing geothermal projects, we're seeing hydrogen, we're seeing everything across the board. And it's really exciting to see this. And with the direct pay treasury tax incentives, there's just cool new models that you can pull together to ensure that we have the funding to actually bring clean energy to tribes. Nick: Yeah, love it. I am, especially in thinking about a few pieces I'll try to weave together here, but

especially in thinking about how to, well, first of all, congrats on the first loan out of this program. Super exciting and super impactful, I'm sure. And in terms of thinking about how to templatize it and do it again, I'm sure that you know, getting the first loan out and developing the first project goes a long way in sort of building trust, which is probably one of the more important things I imagine to then going and doing it again. I'm curious in sort of the community engagement and coalition building that went into getting this first project off the ground, what were some of the questions that folks at the community level pushed you all on? Because I'm sure that there were lots of thoughtful, ones that came up in the process. But yeah, I would just be curious for a little bit of color of like, what were some folks on the tribal side, most curious, or perhaps even most cautious about? Arpita: Absolutely. And I think I will take it a bit on the critiques folks have had on our, this program overall and how we're thinking about addressing those challenges. So first of all, I think one of them I spoke to a bit where you're trying to take this instrument that is excited about a hundred million dollar plus deals that are for, you know, ready to scale up and building that bridge to bankability. And you're trying to take that system and shift it to what we're trying to do here, which might be a bit smaller and repeatable. So that is one thing that we've really tried to push on. Where can we make this easier? So we don't have application fees for the Tribal Energy Finance Program. We have built out and are thinking through how we provide very specific technical assistance for our program. It's very different than if you are doing a feasibility type study for like, okay, let's think about our energy vision. and how we want the next 20 years to look like, we do have an office, Office of Indian Energy, that will provide that. What we need to provide is a very specific, okay, you have a site in mind, and you have a, you know, you know your load, let's work with you to figure out, like, what's next? And how do you actually get from that to being to a place where you're ready for debt financing, which is just so different than being able to use grants and being able to or just, you know, get equity in the market or figure out other ways to fund it. So that's a big piece of feedback that we've gotten where it's like it's too complicated. Only people who've ever done this type of debt financing before are going to be able to participate. And you all need to make this plug and play. So that's a big piece of feedback. And I think the other big piece of feedback we get is We're not doing $100 million loans. Can you do smaller? So we've thought a little bit about that. An interesting note on that, which I have a lot of hope for, is the Greenhouse Gas Reduction Fund. So I'm really excited about the money that's coming. out of that, a lot of money has actually gone to tribes and to the native CDFI network, which is really exciting. And it'll be cool to see if there is a way for filling those gaps of the smaller projects that we're just not able to finance because we're not made for it. So those will be really exciting to see if we can expand out and have all these like instruments work together. So yes, you do a feasibility study off out of Opposite Union Energy. Then let's come talk to us and see if there's a real project here that we can start moving forward. Nick: And as we look ahead to the rest of the year, even beyond the rest of the decade, I'm curious what you're most keenly focused on in terms of project deployment. As we've talked about, I'm sure it's leveraging this model that's now been proven out once and trying to do it umpteen more times. But maybe there are also some other focal areas and types of projects that you're also keenly interested in supporting. Arpita: So the other piece that we really want to make sure we address is the residential side. So you can imagine the bigger microgrid, bigger solar storage, more commercial. There is a lot of home, unelectrified homes on tribal lands still. And I do think it is a goal of our administration to just figure out the different mechanisms that could address that. One of them could be a virtual power plant. So I think you know that we offered a $3 billion conditional commitment to Sonoba, which is a virtual power plant, the first that we've done. So again, just distributed energy resources, figuring out how we can actually put solar on roofs and impact daily lives of the folks living on reservation land. So that's one sector we're really trying to think through. And if there's a way to help package together to make it work for our program, because truly that's when you talk about Justice40 and thinking about how we meet these equity goals, actually getting people electricity is going to be big. And so that's sort of the next frontier. And we just need to think about what makes the most sense there and figure out the structures that work and very excited. We've already had a lot of developers come to us with different ideas. And we just need to keep that coming and think through how you bring in that direct pay. And then how do we potentially fund like a portfolio of projects for residential solar for tribal communities. Nick: This is a question that I think we've sort of circled around and that I've, I've introduced a little bit so far, but you know, just to dig into it a little bit more. Specifically, I think, as I've said, there are folks, especially on sort of the climate side or people who sit more on the private sector and maybe operate companies, what have you, develop projects that look at how much money the government has or look at how much money even the LPO has to deploy. And they say, that's fantastic. And we love the conditional commitments that you've made. But given the urgency of the climate crisis, this all needs to move

10 times faster. And I've gotten some good color on this in speaking with folks who have actually received funding from the LPO and who've spoken really highly about the process and who kind of reflected to me how much work there is on sort of the tech and innovation and project development side in terms of like retiring key risks before you're actually ready to work with the LPO. But I'm curious how you would add to that kind of conversation and how you think about it and what you all are doing in order to move a bit faster, because I'm sure it's something that you all think about as well. Arpita: We do think about it every day, every night, keeps me up at night, but I think we've made a lot of big. big strides. And as someone, again, who hadn't worked in federal government before, I've been just truly floored by the level of expertise and commitment that the career staff have in the loan programs office, but at the Department of Energy generally. And I think a lot of folks know how this works, but you have the political appointees. I'm one of those who come in during the administrations. And then you have the career staff, some who've been here since the beginning of the loan programs office, who just know this program inside and out have, you know, when you come in with an idea, you're like, Hey, what if we try this? They're like, Yeah, people have tried this like seven times, and it does not. So let's move on. And it saves you time. And so I just Big shout out to the incredible career staff that we have at the Loan Programs Office. What I will say is, though, that I think what we've had to really pivot is to ensure that, like, the baseline, when we talk about the things that we need, there's a whole FAQ that folks can look up. But essentially, it's offtake, reasonable prospect of repayment. And that getting folks to the point where we are seeing different types of projects come to us that are going to be whether they be corporate credit, they're not innovative, like in tribal, we have to figure out a way to go faster. So one of our big programs, the energy reinvestment money that we call 1706, the idea is retooling, repowering existing energy assets, that's not again, not going to be the same cookie cutter type. Well, not cookie cutter, in this case, it's actually going to be not completely bespoke, there's going to be a certain corporate structure that we're going to be able, should be able to more quickly move through our process. So we're really just thinking through the different ways that we are able to, again, this idea of templatizing is across the whole board of like, we need to just be able to have a predictable and repeatable process. So I think I take all of the criticism, very, like, I acknowledge that it's, it's real, it's frustrating to go through a process where you're like, I don't know what the next step is, wait, You told me this, but now it's taking longer. Like we've really had to push the team to say, you know, this is,

we need to think about customer service here and engagement to make sure that it's both people are getting the answers they need. and that they're able to really understand what the roadmap is for how to get through our program. So I think we've made a lot of strides, but this, you know, next year is going to be us proving out that model and seeing what we can do. But I can't say more about the team. It's just been a journey. And it's because we have people who've been here for 14 years, 15 years, like, just in it and making sure we can figure out the path of least resistance. With that being said, I think we really just, our rigorous due diligence is actually the stamp of approval that we're seeing allows for private capital to actually come in and invest after. And that is really our goal. It's we want to be the catalyst and then we want the private markets to be able to come in and fund and take these companies the rest of the way. So our due diligence, our stamp of approval really does help with that. And it makes sure that we're actually being really good stewards of the taxpayer dollar and also transforming the clean energy economy with these investments. So we're working on it. And I think what I would say is we just have an incredible career staff here. And some of them have been here since the beginning of the loan programs office, some since, you know, for 20 plus years. And I've not seen a workforce as committed to the mission as the folks I work with at the Load Programs Office. So I think as long as we all get on the same page and are able to move forward, I think we're going to be able to speed the process up for all of our awesome applicants. Nick: Love it. Yeah, something that Jigar said to me in a recent conversation, but he kind of frames it as like trying to create flywheels of irreversible momentum for different technologies. And I thought that was a very artistic and cool phrase for that catalysis. Well, I'm excited to watch the progress unfold over the next year and to keep people apprised of it. Zooming out a little bit, and this might feed into what we were just talking about, but I'm curious what else, whether on the policy landscape or other, you are watching really closely right now, excited about, or perhaps some of the answer to this question is also just other things that you think your office and the folks that you work with could be doing a better job of just to bring people along with the journey and help them understand how everything works. Arpita: High level, I don't think you can be on an energy podcast right now without talking about load growth. And obviously, all of that, you know, concerns that we are thinking about with the first time that we're going to really accelerate in terms of the load that we're adding to the grid. and the resilience of that grid and being able to actually handle all of that. So that is obviously something that we think about a lot, especially as we look at our pipeline and think through, you know, the projects and think through the speed at which we need to actually move. So that's definitely something. we think about a lot. And I think what I would say as a corollary to that or something we need to do better is like people, especially with electricity, they'll only notice something when things go wrong or if their prices go up or cost goes up. And so we need to do a better job and we've really started. And I think our secretary, Secretary Graham, was such a good communicator about this. We need to though keep showing people how they can save money and whether it be with the heat pump or solar incentives or all the various incentives they have. And we need to just ensure that people understand that this is like a unique moment and that like, we've been able to make a lot of progress. At the same time, I don't know how much those wins land. Like maybe people don't care that we made the grid more resilient because it has an impact on their life, you know, so that's the thing I struggle with where I'm like, we need to figure out how to communicate this, or at the very least, make sure that people are able to save money and understand what's out there to help them because it's, you just don't think about energy, you don't think about electricity on a day to day and that's good. we sort of wanted to be that way, right? Because the harder we make this transition, the harder like the more people are going to resist it. So there's this weird balance of like, let's tell you about all the things we've done, but not tell you and you so you won't notice that we're actually making this change without you having to make a change in your lifestyle, which sort of goes back to the my time at impossible foods where it's like, can we make an experience for you that is similar to your day to day experience of eating a burger? and without you really having to change yourself or your lifestyle. Nick: Right. Yeah, it is an interesting push and pull, because to your point, yeah, you don't want folks to necessarily have a different day-to-day experience of electricity, for instance. But at the same time, you do sort of want to shout from the rooftops, like, we put a lot of time and effort into this, and it's really important for X, Y, Z reasons, and it's really good for X, Y, Z reasons. And so, yeah, I can appreciate how that's some complicated ground to tread at times. Arpita: Yeah, I mean, we wouldn't have succeeded if somehow we do the full clean energy transition and the day-to-day consumer has all the benefits or has not noticed at all. And yeah, to your point, you work so hard and it's funny to be like, and if you guys don't notice anything, great. Nick: Right. Good outcome. Yeah. If we can deliver you electricity with much fewer greenhouse gas emissions and no blackouts and all that, like you won't have to think about it, but you should be excited about it. Exactly. That's good. I'm curious, just like outside of your day to day

work is, you know, I'm sure you watch energy transition dynamics or other climate technology dynamics as closely as anyone out there. What else are you particularly excited about in 2024? What has your attention, even if it's not something that necessarily sits with your purview at the LPO? Arpita: I'm really excited about industrial decarbonization. So for some reason, I get very excited about low carbon cements or steel or these really, really difficult places to decarbonize. So it was cool to see the historic investment that our Office of Clean Energy Demonstrations made, $6.3 billion. into various different industrial decarb projects, including a factory that makes mac and cheese, like thinking about industrial decarb as both food, but also low carbon cement and steel. And so this is going to be a really interesting challenge. And I was on a panel at the Bloomberg New Energy Finance with some of the VCs who are looking at the space. It's super hard, like building things not proven that take a very long time and require patient capital and that like, are you're going to have to be incumbents is so difficult. And obviously, that's on the clean energy side, more broadly, but it's interesting to see the broader industrial decarb space at this early phase where you're just I'm just excited for all of them. I hope they all succeed. It's just a very fun space to watch and excited to see what lands and what we're actually able to do. I think on the low carbon cement side, you know, the federal government is going to be probably the main off taker because our government's going to be building the most buildings in the next, you know, however many years. And so that's also fascinating. So I've been thinking about that a little bit. And it's been fun to see. Nick: Yeah, I have to be careful with getting my stats correct too, but I think the federal government is something like 50% of demand for concrete or cement, one of the two, in the US already. So that makes perfect sense that they'd be the right customer for a variety of reasons, not just because of the scale of their demand. I'm also always curious to try and make some of this appreciable to folks listening in. When you think about how any given individual, regardless of their role or exposure to all this content in their work can also help make an impact? How do you think about that? Arpita: So on the individual level, I always struggle with this question, because we go back to this idea, like, don't change anything, and we'll, we'll make your life lower carbon. But I think the one thing as a broader theme and piece of advice I got from a mentor back in college was like, either go work at a place that makes something, or at least understand how things are made. Because I think it like physical things like physical, like, whether it be solar panels, or whatever that might be, because you just realize how difficult it is to build here in the United States, or more generally, and that a lot of the work that needs to happen is going to have to be us trudging through some of these complex manufacturing difficulties and challenges. And so I think for the individual consumer, like maybe understanding that, again, doesn't necessarily help the climate cause. But then when you sort of see whether it be, you know, EV manufacturing or battery manufacture, all these things that are taking federal resources, taxpayer money, and your thinking about the bigger ecosystem, hopefully makes us all a little bit more both patient and willing to work together through this really difficult transition, and just allows us to get really excited again about this idea of building things in the US again, and really building that factoring base. It's a little bit not just on every consumer mind, but I think it's always just fun. I remember going to a waste treatment plant when I was in second grade, and I was just like, oh, all of our waste and all these things go somewhere. Our lives are like, very physical things that everything has to go somewhere. It's like without law of physics, like matter can never be created or destroyed or something. But just like some of these concepts of like, this is always going to be there, we just have to figure out how to make it more efficient, I think is helpful. Nick: Yeah, I agree. I think, you know, there's so much stuff that's intent somewhat intentionally to solve what we've talked about out of sight out of mind, whether it's electricity generation or what happens to water that sort of mysteriously enters your home and then leaves it again, or your trash. In New York, for instance, a lot of our trash gets burned, but some of it also gets put on a train and then taken to a landfill in South Carolina. Once you start to learn a little bit more about these things, A, it's a great way to re-engage and get more curious about the world, but then sometimes you also see things where you're like, If enough people looked at this, maybe we'd all conclude that there might be a better way to do some of it. And so, I agree with you. I think that's something that can sort of be catalyzed by more folks having access to that information and good entry points to get educated about it, and then also taking an interest in it. Arpita: I think also having family in India where a lot of these things are not guaranteed, whether it be their, you know, electricity going out every so often because they're doing load shedding or water or any of these things. It's just taking a moment to be like, this is sort of miraculous. I always can take it. warm shower or any of these things is, I think, usually keeps me pretty grounded. And then also thinking about I mean, and this is the thing that truly keeps me in the climate game is, you know, even right now, I think the temperatures in Calcutta, where my family's from is like 120 degrees, no AC. And then like, we're talking about like, Oh, but please, like, don't, you know, increase your emissions, India, right? No, they need AC is like, let's figure it out, let's make them, you know, low greenhouse gas, but we cannot, like, it's just a very complicated landscape. And we have to figure out how to make people's lives better, both on I think, the domestic side. And then on the international side, it's a very different scale. But I'm just excited to see all the technologies that we're deploying here. And innovating here also, hopefully making an impact on the international landscape as well. Nick: Yeah, it's a great perspective. And, you know, to bring it back to cows one more time, I think about that with respect to a place like India a lot, too. It's like India has more cows than any other country in the world. But it'd be a very different conversation to say, like, oh, we should try to reduce the size of herds that are industrially farmed in the US. And I think a lot of us can get on board with that. But then if you look at India, where most of those cows aren't even bred for beef, and they're very much like a core, probably one of the better kind of like economic mobility tools for a lot of the people out there. It's like, you know, would you rather, you might not have access to a stock market or a bank account, but like a cow that can literally withstand a storm and provide you with usable products. Like it's a very different conversation to go to those farmers and be like, oh, you know, we need to reduce methane emissions globally. We can't have these cows anymore. It's not quite that simple. Exactly. Yeah. Beautiful. All right. Well, thanks so much, Arpita, for a very wide ranging conversation. And thank you for the work that you do. I think it's easy for, again, whether it's electricity or water or folks like yourself working behind the scenes to make a lot of really cool projects happen. It's easy for it to sort of go without fanfare. So much appreciated. And I look forward to continuing to watch what you all fund and support in the coming year. Arpita: Yeah, it was so good to chat with you. Nick: Thanks for tuning in. So you don't miss the next episode on another cutting edge climate tech, make sure to subscribe on Spotify, Apple, Google, or wherever it is that you get your podcasts. We'll see you soon.