Pełna transkrypcja odcinka Ep95 Cognitive Dissonance: When Your Brain Calls Bias Intuition

00:04:07.840 --> 00:04:10.560 But what action are we going to create on the back of it? 00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:15.439 Am I going to go for my beautiful glass antique tiles or am I going to go with the budget? 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:18.879 Well, and which one might give you more of a dopamine boost as well? 00:04:18.879 --> 00:04:21.360 It might be the tiles potentially. 00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:24.560 Well, it was the tiles one. 00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:26.079 Dopamine won out. 00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:27.759 That's so interesting, isn't it? 00:04:27.759 --> 00:04:40.079 Because actually, if the decision had not been dopamine fueled, had actually been about securing a current status, we would go for that rather than going for change. 00:04:40.079 --> 00:04:42.720 Because actually, our brains seek consistency. 00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:48.480 So if option two was feeling uncomfortable, we would be more likely to stick with the original plan. 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:52.240 Of course, I was going towards beauty rather than financial security. 00:04:52.240 --> 00:04:52.879 Absolutely. 00:04:52.879 --> 00:04:55.439 You know what I mean? 00:04:55.680 --> 00:04:56.319 Yeah, I do. 00:04:56.319 --> 00:05:01.120 What's happening in our minds then when we're wrestling with these conflicting beliefs? 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:09.279 What it means is it means we have to alter our belief or idea and challenge our current views on a situational tradition. 00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:14.639 In other words, we have to start telling ourselves a new rhetoric, we have to tell ourselves a new story. 00:05:14.639 --> 00:05:15.839 So that's the thing. 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:22.560 We have to tell ourselves something new rather than continuing what we were telling ourselves prior to the dissonance. 00:05:22.879 --> 00:05:37.759 And by telling ourselves that story, I suppose it then reduces the cognitive load of sort of wrestling or holding these different contradictory thoughts or beliefs, which can be quite stressful, I suppose, if you're having to balance that out for a sustained period of time. 00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:38.720 Yeah, exactly. 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:39.439 That's great. 00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:44.560 So we changed the belief of our thinking rather than changing our behaviour, it seems. 00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:47.199 Can you give me an example of that? 00:05:47.600 --> 00:05:51.680 So imagine you were going to focus on your professional development, Christian. 00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:59.759 So you're telling me that actually you really value professional development, and because we're a psychometric business, you really would like to do some advanced stats. 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:01.040 Oh, lovely. 00:06:01.759 --> 00:06:03.519 Actually, I can't imagine you ask me this. 00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:09.680 But there's a part of you that doesn't really like stats, and that you might realize that you might struggle with some of the technical elements. 00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:26.240 So that's an example, whereas you know you ought to do psychometrics because we're a psychometrics business, and you ought to do these advanced stats in order to advise clients, yet, actually, there might be a fear response or there may be a logical response, which is you just don't like maths, you just don't like stats at all. 00:06:26.240 --> 00:06:27.759 So that would be an example. 00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:29.279 Yeah, that's a great example. 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:46.399 I might have had that initial surge of adrenaline or anxiety, you know, if I was told that I had to go into the advanced stats course literally tomorrow, but I would hopefully rationalise that and uh tell myself that it was good for me, good for my career, but I could see how my mind would feel a bit stressed. 00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:50.800 So you can see here with the example that we're trying to reduce the sense of discomfort. 00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:53.360 So we start rationalizing, we start justifying. 00:06:53.360 --> 00:07:00.560 So whichever path we go down, we usually try to create a story around it to say actually this is the right decision. 00:07:00.879 --> 00:07:01.680 I can see that. 00:07:01.680 --> 00:07:07.360 And so I might say, for example, that if I might tell myself, Amanda, that I don't have time to do the advanced stats course. 00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:08.480 Well, it's not necessary. 00:07:08.720 --> 00:07:11.199 Yeah, I'm supposed to be I'm busy delivering. 00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:21.759 And when you have that kind of core belief where you know you're lying to yourself, because that's fundamentally what we do, that also creates another kind of sense of discomfort. 00:07:21.759 --> 00:07:27.199 There's almost another dissonance because you know that actually, even though you've gone with the path, you know it's the wrong one. 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:28.480 Yeah, it really is. 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:31.600 I know, and I'm can be a victim of sometimes eating junk food. 00:07:31.839 --> 00:07:32.160 Okay. 00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:36.160 I can tell myself that because I do some exercise, that balances that out. 00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:38.720 So it's absolutely the Yorkie man, aren't you? 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:39.199 I've just remembered. 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:40.720 Is it Yorkies that you like? 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:42.079 That was years ago, I think. 00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:42.639 I told you that. 00:07:42.639 --> 00:07:46.079 I think I haven't got one yet for my birthday or anything. 00:07:46.079 --> 00:07:47.519 Yeah, I do like the Yorkis. 00:07:47.759 --> 00:07:48.319 I just remembered. 00:07:48.319 --> 00:07:49.279 I do have a food memory. 00:07:49.279 --> 00:07:50.879 Yeah, I love food. 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:52.000 So I have a food memory. 00:07:52.000 --> 00:07:55.120 I remember pretty much every restaurant I go to and everything I eat. 00:07:55.120 --> 00:08:05.439 But food's a great example of cognitive dissonance, actually, and particularly for me, because

people listening will know that I'm someone who fights hard to stay healthy and I train every day. 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:09.680 So I love exercise, luckily, because I love food. 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:11.120 It's a great example, isn't it? 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:15.439 And obviously, we could talk about food and dark chocolate and yucky bars all day. 00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:25.759 But yeah, I suppose it's also useful to hear from you and to talk about why we want to touch on this topic today in the light of what we do and what our clients are challenged by. 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:35.200 Well, from a professional perspective, cognitive dissonance is a bias or a mental shortcut that occurs every day for everyone in so many different situations. 00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:39.759 We're constantly faced with competing ideas, beliefs, or decisions. 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:53.120 And we should really think about how this impacts our ability to make good, rational decisions because it's not about the speed of decisions that's important, it's about the effectiveness of those decisions and preparedness to commit. 00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:56.960 And that's so it can affect things like decision quality, can't it? 00:08:57.279 --> 00:08:57.759 It can. 00:08:57.759 --> 00:09:00.960 Again, back to that simplicity and predictability. 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:01.600 Yeah. 00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:06.320 So how does cognitive dissonance affect businesses in particular? 00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:07.759 We know what are you seeing? 00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:27.600 What has been found is that cognitive dissonance has been a major source of stress, particularly for roles that are more people-oriented, so HR roles or risk roles, because those types of roles are inherently involving a balancing act, balancing the organization's objectives with the employees' objectives and their well-being. 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:34.639 And so, depending on the culture and the values of the organization, these can often really be at conflict, be at odds with one another. 00:09:34.639 --> 00:09:43.360 Because the organization, if you're highly commercial and profit-driven and target-driven, and growth-driven, will be really focusing on numbers. 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:47.840 Whereas, of course, they need to make sure they look at their after their employees at the same time. 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:52.399 So it sounds like it really does affect decision-making ways of working. 00:09:52.399 --> 00:09:59.519 I remember working with uh a senior leader who worked in a very collaborative way, was really compassionate. 00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:03.759 One of their strengths was enabling other people to develop professionally. 00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:06.639 So they had a lot of their strengths were around supporting others. 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:12.000 But they were going through a lot of stress, a lot of pressure at that time, a lot of organizational change. 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:25.200 And through our coaching, he mentioned to me that he found himself closing things down quicker and finding it harder to listen to sort of different views in the way that he had before because of that pressure that was on him. 00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:33.600 So when you talk about the effects of cognitive dissonance and the fact that we might make less effective decisions under stress, that's really interesting. 00:10:34.080 --> 00:10:35.200 So that's a great example. 00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:48.720 So the dissonance came from just personal desire to be empathic and considerate for others, yet there's an organizational pressure to operate at pace and to be more driving in his behaviour or her behaviour. 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:50.000 That's a really good example. 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:53.360 Yeah, from what you've said, yeah, that really makes a lot of sense now. 00:10:53.360 --> 00:10:55.200 So it affects decision making. 00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:56.080 We've talked about that. 00:10:56.080 --> 00:11:01.039 Are there any other biases that might influence us when making decisions, Amanda? 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:02.080 There's so many. 00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:08.799 I mean, we could do a whole podcast on biases, but spend the whole time just listing 100 and describing them, which wouldn't be that engaging or fun. 00:11:08.799 --> 00:11:17.279 But a few that particularly relate to cognitive dissonance are, I would say, anchoring bias, confirmation bias, and optimism bias. 00:11:17.279 --> 00:11:29.840 So anchoring is when a person is influenced by the very first piece of information that they're shown, and this creates a really narrow or tunnel view of the world and situation. 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:32.799 So therefore, any additional information there's dissonance. 00:11:32.799 --> 00:11:42.960 The next one is confirmation bias, so that's involving being favourable about certain information or beliefs or preconceptions, so have confirming something exists already. 00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:47.519 So therefore, if there's anything new, it's dissonance, and then optimism bias. 00:11:47.519 --> 00:12:01.600 So that's when we focus only on the positives, and therefore we have dissonance if there's anything that's more critically evaluative, or if there's something that's a bit more negative or even realistic about outcomes, we start, we want to just see the good that's happening. 00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:10.559 Yeah, we have a whole array of mental shortcuts that can be really important and effective, but then also can hijack our thinking and effectiveness by the sounds of it. 00:12:10.720 --> 00:12:11.679 Oh, yeah, totally. 00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:15.759 I mean, we are slave to the way in which our brains are connecting and forming. 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:26.559 And what I love about the resilience research that we talked about on previous pods and neuroplasticity is that we build our resilience by facing into stress and learning how to cope with stress. 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:35.120 And

if we don't face stress and cope with stress, then the next time we get stressed, we don't know how to deal with it because neuroplasticity is all about learning. 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:36.879 And it's the same with this as well. 00:12:36.879 --> 00:12:53.360 If we don't face into cognitive dissonance and acknowledge that our brains are looking for tradition, simplicity, and what's always been, we're not going to learn in the future how to challenge ourselves to go for the new option or the new idea. 00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:57.679 So neuroplasticity in dealing with bias is absolutely key. 00:12:57.679 --> 00:13:01.360 Otherwise, we'll never change, we'll never grow, we'll just stick with what we know. 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:04.080 I like that last line there, I think it rhymed as well. 00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:04.720 It did. 00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:08.559 You didn't even write that one down, it just came. 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:11.200 It just came out of my brain. 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:13.440 We're in the flow, we're in the zone. 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:21.519 Understanding how we make decisions can help us to avoid the pitfalls of some cost thinking. 00:13:21.519 --> 00:13:30.399 RBPS Verified Decision Styles Questionnaire is a great way to get leaders thinking about why they make the decisions they make and if there's anything they would like to do differently. 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:35.279 Visit the CPO.co.uk to learn more about the BTalent Suite of Psychometrics. 00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:43.279 I'd love to talk you through how we are constantly improving our norm groups, collecting data from all across the world to ensure our reporting is valid and reliable. 00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:46.159 We ensure our products are accessible for all users. 00:13:46.159 --> 00:13:47.600 Contact me on LinkedIn. 00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:50.720 That's Andela Malik, M-A-L-I-K. 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:58.799 What happens in the brain when we experience cognitive dissonance? 00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:05.120 Well, I must say I love Keshaya because she does all of this amazing research around the neuroscience. 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:06.799 So thank you, Keshaya, for doing this. 00:14:06.799 --> 00:14:11.120 I think the key thing is that decisions don't happen in a vacuum. 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:16.080 You can't make a decision without thinking about all the additional other information that's going to be influencing. 00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:26.559 And so how we respond to a situation and make a decision is very much shaped by the state of mind we're in at that time and by how much information the brain is able to manage in that moment. 00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:38.320 So if we're stressed, of course, and we're feeling really overwhelmed, we're not going to be able to think laterally or expansively or be open to alternatives or to that dissonance. 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:40.480 We're just going to be in the protection mode. 00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:55.120 So biases already influence how

we judge situations, but when we're stressed, it's even more so because we try to remove that feeling of dissonance and we get even less capacity to sit with that complexity or that discomfort to weigh things up. 00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:56.080 We just want to get rid of it. 00:14:56.080 --> 00:14:59.279 We just want to get out of that discomfort and just make a decision. 00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:07.279 So decision making when we're in that stress situation is narrower, quicker, more focused, but not necessarily the best. 00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:15.039 Sounds like pressure depletes our cognitive and mental resources to actually resolve the dissonance in the first place. 00:15:15.279 --> 00:15:16.639 Beautifully articulated. 00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:20.480 And organizations and people that are going through a lot of change. 00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:26.159 A lot of our clients are wrestling with inherently lots of ambiguity and uncertainty. 00:15:26.159 --> 00:15:30.159 People respond and are more resilient in some cases to that pressure. 00:15:30.159 --> 00:15:42.240 But then there's also, I suppose, the more pressure can create a feedback loop where those decisions under stress, there's less clarity, there's less ability sometimes to regulate our prefrontal cortex. 00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:46.159 So therefore, we're less able to then resolve the cognitive dissonance. 00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:56.080 So I suppose it can be a bit of a vicious cycle unless we accept, as you say, some the fact that we have that sort of those competing feelings and beliefs and we can try and do something about it. 00:15:56.240 --> 00:15:57.840 It's true and learn from it as well. 00:15:58.080 --> 00:15:59.039 And learn from it, yeah. 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:10.080 And this conversation is growing because it's helping us realise actually the size of the decisions we have to make at work are so impactful sometimes on the direction and future of organizations. 00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:32.320 So understanding that when we are faced with really challenging decisions, that there is a real mental discomfort that comes with it, and being able to sit with that discomfort and sort through it and weigh it up and sit with that complexity without trying to avoid it is so key because it's then that we're going to really understand the situation. 00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:43.279 And I don't know about you, but working with clients, whether that's coaching, whether it's um assessment or development and workshops, we find that we work with leaders who have lots of experience. 00:16:43.279 --> 00:16:47.120 So they're using some of their well-lived intuition to make decisions. 00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:57.200 But you know, if sometimes under pressure or under intense sort of visibility and stress, they might tell themselves that the intuition always works and they're making the right decision. 00:16:57.200 --> 00:17:04.079 But might it sometimes be that it's discomforting or it's uncomfortable to really sit with the contradictions? 00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:06.960 It really is, and so that's why we try and do something about it. 00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:08.240 We try to avoid. 00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:14.400 It'd be interesting to really kind of explore some of the things that's really happening in the brain because Keshire again helped us with this. 00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:16.960 What happens then in the in the brain areas? 00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:23.920 Because you know, Keshire is an expert in the neuroscience, and I think we are budding experts, but a long way from being that. 00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:25.920 Yeah, I'm not sure. 00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:28.400 We are definitely learning from her, which is brilliant. 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:42.079 So the neuroscience data suggests that dissonance is associated with a number of brain regions from fMRA scans, and that includes the inferior frontal gyrus, which I can't pronounce, and the anterior insula. 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:46.720 So they have emotional relationships with the dissonance process. 00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:55.519 Because when we experience dissonance, the brain appears to be dealing with a mix of discomfort and conflict and control or need for control all at once, which we've talked about. 00:17:55.519 --> 00:18:00.240 And the anterior insular is associated with that uneasy, uncomfortable feeling. 00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:09.759 So that's the second one, that's that uneasy, uncomfortable feeling, while the inferior frontal gyrus appears to be helping with the mental effort of trying to sort it all out. 00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:15.359 So the interior frontal is sorting out, and the interior insular is the discomfort. 00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:24.640 It sounds like the brain has some clever ways of trying to calm itself down and to rationalise and to be able to resolve this dissonance. 00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:47.119 Yeah, in particular, it's during the dissonance process when we're trying to get an attitude shift to restore that cognitive balance that we see an increased activation of the right inferior frontal gyrus, which of course is the trying to sort it all out, and a decreased activation in the anterior insula, which is the discomfort. 00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:53.519 Once we've got the attitude shift and we've started to restore the balance, it goes in the right direction. 00:18:53.519 --> 00:19:05.920 The discomfort reduces, the clarity increases, which suggests, therefore, that after we've made a difficult choice, we start adjusting our attitudes to be more aligned with the decision. 00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:14.319 What it means is our brain's registering that the discomfort has started to reduce, and therefore it says, Okay, well, that must be the right decision. 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:15.440 That was a good decision. 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:16.880 So confirmation bias then. 00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:18.720 Yeah, the brain's telling you that's okay. 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:21.680 We'll release the discomfort

because you've made a decision. 00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:22.559 That makes sense. 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:28.240 So even a purchase that you maybe invested in a lot or you might have potentially regretted. 00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:30.720 I know there's been some examples in my life. 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:38.720 I remember telling myself after buying that or investing in it, I found a lot of ways to convince myself that it was the right thing and it wasn't a mistake. 00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:45.039 Because if I'd have lived in that and sort of discomfort, I would have really regretted making the purchase for years to come. 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:45.440 Yeah. 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:47.920 We talked about that on that sunk cost pod, didn't we? 00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:49.440 Yeah, that's related, isn't it? 00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:51.680 Yeah, that's definitely closely related. 00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:59.039 So cognitive dissonance activates, as you said, the areas linked to emotions, emotional discomfort and threat. 00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:05.920 So when something doesn't align, our brains actually treat it like a problem to solve and to resolve quickly. 00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:13.599 So I suppose this explains why we default to, I suppose, justifying our behaviours rather than reflecting on things really deeply. 00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:16.480 Yeah, and that's key to survival, actually. 00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:21.519 It's when our instincts come into play that we really experience this cognitive dissonance and try to resolve it. 00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:33.200 It's because the brain is trying to register a sort of a mismatch as something that's uncomfortable and maybe therefore it's aversive, and therefore it means it's not good to sit with that discomfort very long. 00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:35.440 So it's all about protection. 00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:41.279 We're evaluating difficult situations and helping to ourselves to avoid negative outcomes. 00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:50.559 So rather than staying with attention and examining it in depth, we seem to want to move very quickly towards reducing it to avoid that discomfort. 00:20:50.559 --> 00:20:58.400 Like you say, therefore, it might mean justifying decision, reframing what's happened or shifting our attitude so that things feel consistent again. 00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:11.440 So justification feels like it's the brain's fastest route back to psychological comfort, whereas a deeper reflection, which is actually what is needed a lot of the time, will want us to stay with the discomfort for longer. 00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:24.160 Is that harder, do you think, in organisations where pace and decisiveness are valued arguably more highly than slowing down or pausing or reflection? 00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:24.960 Completely. 00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:43.119 And it really makes me think about John Bircher from Salt and Light and his colleague Mark Herbert, who have both been on the pod and both eloquent when it comes to decision making, because they often talk about decisiveness, it's not about speed, it's about clarity, and it is about that sitting with that discomfort. 00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:50.400 They don't necessarily use the tag language of cognitive dissonance in their decision making workshop, but it is all about that. 00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:56.400 It's all about that deeper reflection and not going towards justification and speed. 00:21:56.720 --> 00:21:57.279 Interesting. 00:21:57.279 --> 00:21:59.759 And I suppose it's not necessarily fast versus. 00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:10.319 Slow, but how do we create space to think and sit with those contradictions and sometimes that discomfort that might be involved in the decision making? 00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:13.519 How can we deal with cognitive dissonance? 00:22:13.519 --> 00:22:14.720 Is the big question. 00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:17.519 Yeah, I think the first thing is we need to be aware of it. 00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:23.519 You know, sometimes we don't even acknowledge that we've got two completing beliefs or ideas. 00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:25.119 We just feel uncomfortable. 00:22:25.119 --> 00:22:32.319 And in that discomfort, we therefore get to a position of making a quick decision without necessarily acknowledging. 00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:34.640 So the first one is raise our awareness. 00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:37.200 And that then we once we've got it, then to challenge our beliefs. 00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:40.880 So I'm going to go back to the really simple example of me and my tiles. 00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:42.880 So where are my core values? 00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:44.240 What's important to me? 00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:48.319 How aligned are my decisions with my values and what's important to me? 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:52.880 And how much of a risk is it to actually go with one option versus another? 00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:59.039 It's a really simple example, but it's just in that small example, it's an easy one to understand and interpret. 00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:01.680 And so finally, we have to be honest with ourselves. 00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:10.000 We have to look for what's not necessarily the easiest answer, but what is the kind of the more enlightened answer. 00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:14.480 So going forward, are you going to carry on buying the beautiful tiles? 00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:15.440 Yes. 00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:22.559 Because you can probably visualize just how much more beautiful then more tiles will be, right? 00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:26.079 Yeah, well, I've justified it that I only want to do it once. 00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:28.799 And that is my home for life, I hope. 00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:32.160 And it will hopefully see me out for decades in future. 00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:38.960 So I have justified in my mind that actually I'd rather buy something that's buy once, buy beautiful. 00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:44.079 So yeah, maybe it's not the best example because I didn't stick to my basically I didn't stick to

my budget. 00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:48.400 But I think after we've had this podcast now, we've got this recording, and then that's it. 00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:58.000 You've got confirmation that um yeah, there's no more need for cognitive dissonance on this because you've made a decision and it's a home for life, so it deserves the best tiles you can afford. 00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:02.240 Promise we weren't going to talk about tiles in the next podcast, okay, everybody. 00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:03.759 Exactly, exactly. 00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:05.599 We've driven the point home. 00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:10.880 So, Kristian, have you got an example of when you've experienced cognitive dissonance? 00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:12.480 That's a good question. 00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:14.640 Probably many occasions. 00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:20.480 Um, I think about feedback actually, particularly around receiving feedback, Amanda. 00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:41.200 When I really think about it, when there's people who particularly that I really respect that have given me feedback, whether that's a manager over the years about a performance or a delivery piece, then I think initially sort of try and find ways of telling myself that maybe they might not understand the context. 00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:43.200 Okay, so deny. 00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:44.240 Deny, yeah. 00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:48.799 And I think I'm open to feedback because I know there's always room for improvement. 00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:51.519 So I have that belief, and that always sits there. 00:24:51.519 --> 00:25:01.359 But I suppose that's that initial response when I reflect on it of yeah, but that's not the whole story, or maybe you might be wrong in this particular area. 00:25:01.359 --> 00:25:09.440 And then what usually happens is I'll kind of sit for it for a while, and then usually that belief of feedback is good for me. 00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:15.279 You know, I'll start to see, I'll use my prefrontal cortex, and I'll think, well, actually, yeah, there's an element of truth there. 00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:23.440 And then I might kind of lean towards completely agreeing or at least taking on board the feedback and thinking about it in a bit more of a nuanced way. 00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:25.920 So, yeah, that's been a recurring thing for me. 00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:29.039 What the listeners can't see is me nodding. 00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:42.960 So I was nodding slowly while you were doing that, because that's such a brilliant example, because the belief is that feedback is good and it's helpful, yet there's also the belief that that person doesn't know you as well as you know you and they don't know the context and the situation. 00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:43.839 Absolutely, yeah. 00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:45.440 Which is that kind of defensive. 00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:47.680 So that's a really great example, actually. 00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:50.079 And the fact that you had to work through that discomfort. 00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:51.359 Yeah, absolutely. 00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:54.160 Well, the fact that they might be right can be uncomfortable. 00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:57.759 So that was probably the reason for the uh cognitive dissonance. 00:25:58.079 --> 00:26:02.720 It does sound like then cognitive dissonance is something that we face into every day. 00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:08.480 So, in summary, what's happening is the brain experiences it as a discomfort. 00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:14.000 We're motivated to remove that discomfort very quickly and be avoidant of it. 00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:19.519 So, therefore, we are propelled to make quick decisions, but not necessarily good decisions. 00:26:19.519 --> 00:26:32.720 So, I think the real key message with this podcast is that in those situations where we are facing an uncomfortable truth or an uncomfortable conversation or uncomfortable decision, don't make the quickest one. 00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:46.720 Maybe talk it through and challenge yourself that the path of least resistance is not necessarily the right path all the time, and actually, it may be the more difficult path is the right way forward. 00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:49.839 So ultimately it's not something to get rid of. 00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:57.039 You as you say, we need to notice it because it might be pointing to a gap between who we say we are and what we're actually doing. 00:26:57.039 --> 00:27:00.960 So knowing this is where the real opportunity uh for change is. 00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:02.000 Absolutely. 00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:10.000 I think this all comes back to being more self-aware, challenging ourselves, and then being honest with ourselves. 00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:13.920 So back to those three steps to really face into that dissonance. 00:27:13.920 --> 00:27:15.759 And it comes down to decision making. 00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:22.240 You know, we don't want to be experiencing some cost bias, you know, throwing good money after bad as an example from our previous pod. 00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:25.440 And that's a great example of when people are experiencing dissonance. 00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:30.960 They know I'm throwing more money at this, more time or energy at it, but it's not necessarily giving me any reward. 00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:33.599 This is a great example of dissonance. 00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:36.160 So facing into it is the first step. 00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:55.200 Yeah, and I think through our examples, some work-based, but also our stories about tiles and my stories about Yorkie bars and feedback, I'm I'm confident that our listeners will actually see maybe a bit about themselves in our conversations and some examples that I think yeah, really bring this topic to life for them. 00:27:55.200 --> 00:28:00.960 So I think it's been a practical one, really insightful and fascinating for us both as we work through this together. 00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:01.599 It's great. 00:28:01.680 --> 00:28:02.319 Thank you, Kristian. 00:28:02.319 --> 00:28:04.400 I've enjoyed prepping and enjoyed recording. 00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:05.359 So have I. 00:28:05.359 --> 00:28:07.359 And thank you for listening, everybody. 00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:08.640 Thank you, Amanda. 00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:15.039 And as always, if you've enjoyed this podcast and others, then please tell your colleagues and friends. 00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:18.559 And we'd love to have you join us on our next podcast. 00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:19.440 Thank you, Kristian. 00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:20.480 Thank you, everyone, for listening. 00:28:20.480 --> 00:28:23.279 I hope you have a wonderful and successful day.