Pełna transkrypcja odcinka Securing America's Polysilicon Supply Chain

know, with our special tariffs that we've had under AIPA, Section 232, Section 301, sometimes what they do is they actually incentivize a tariff cost sharing as between a foreign producer and the US importer, where, you know, I mean you're you and I have talked about this in the past, where, you know, in the initial China 301, you know, in Trump 1.0, what you saw was, you know, prices that were going up in in the normal course, all of a sudden we put in place Section 301 tariffs of 25%, those prices then all of a sudden drop by 25%. 00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:20.399 And it's clear that the Chinese were willing to take a bath to maintain U.S. 00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:22.720 market share and not increase prices, right? 00:05:22.959 --> 00:05:26.160 You can do that only for so long until it actually catches up to you. 00:05:26.319 --> 00:05:29.199 Um, that's sometimes what happens with these special tariffs. 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:48.560 And so what we have in this circumstance is we have the tariff buffer, but we also have this minimum import price floor, which actually has some teeth to it because it basically says you have to be at a minimum import price of, let's say, on a cell, 22 cents per watt. 00:05:48.800 --> 00:06:04.399 Then you also have to certify that your first arm's length sale of that end product containing that cell, if it's if it's the cell itself, has to be at 22 cents a watt or higher, or the module that you're going to produce uh from that cell has to be at 38 cents per watt or higher. 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:22.800 So it's basically setting in place a US market atmosphere where the expectation is on the commercial side, where people are buying these products from unrelated parties, you're going to have a market price war that basically sets that price low at that level. 00:06:22.959 --> 00:06:28.160 And what I think this is intending to do is, you know, everybody's trying to drive down costs. 00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:37.600 As you get to scale, you're going to be able to deal with cost increases because um you can deal with fixed costs on a per unit level if you get to scale, right? 00:06:37.759 --> 00:06:39.680 You can reduce those, you can drive them down. 00:06:39.920 --> 00:06:49.680 And so in an environment where you get more companies onshore here and getting scale in the US market, you're going to have a situation where US costs should be declining. 00:06:49.920 --> 00:07:00.240 Over the period of time, if you know that you can get your costs below what these minimum import price levels are, you have some margin built in there to compete with the imports. 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:18.079 And so it does actually create a market opportunity for anybody who wants to invest because you could say, hey, if we can get our fixed costs down and we have to deal with some variable costs, of course, but if we can get our fixed costs down and get scale, we can actually be selling modules, you know, making a profit. 00:07:18.399 --> 00:07:27.519

You know, if we can get you know costs down to 33, 34 cents a watt, you're gonna be able to be, you know, the pole position for selling those modules in the U.S. 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:27.839 market. 00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:28.720 And guess what? 00:07:28.879 --> 00:07:41.519 Not only do you have that adder, but you have the OBBA and the IRA uh tax benefits that that accrue because you've produced the good in the United States using non-fioc materials. 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:54.000 And so it's it's really an opportunity that, you know, I think the Commerce Department is saying, you know, we're gonna get into this space, we're gonna create an industrial policy that actually generates onshoring activity. 00:07:54.079 --> 00:08:06.000 And if I can just bring it back to the baseline of the proclamation, I mean, when you look at the proclamation that the president's team put out right in the first paragraph, it identifies what this is all about, right? 00:08:06.399 --> 00:08:16.000 In the space of a decade and a half, and you make me feel old here because you know I was litigating these cases back, you know, when we first brought the first solar cell piece. 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:31.120 I was in the government at the time in 2011, and it was a big deal as to whether we would even initiate the case because there was concern that China would immediately retaliate against our polysilicon production, which was the global supplier of polysilicon at the time. 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:32.720 And what happened is they did. 00:08:32.879 --> 00:08:37.840 They basically put in draconian tariffs that hollowed out our polysilicon production. 00:08:38.159 --> 00:08:44.559 Well, polysilicon production is something well akin to um, you know, major league baseball, right? 00:08:45.039 --> 00:08:51.200 You want to be producing the best grade polysilicon that actually goes into the semiconductor industry. 00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:55.440 Every single time you're producing a batch of polysilicon, you want to hit a home run. 00:08:56.080 --> 00:08:56.480 Guess what? 00:08:56.639 --> 00:08:59.919 In baseball, if you hit 400, you're going to the hall of fame. 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:02.879 And that's something somewhere that's happening with polysilicon producers. 00:09:02.960 --> 00:09:07.840 If you can get to 400 on the semi-grade, you know, you should be doing really well. 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:09.600 You should be printing money. 00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:12.720 The problem is, what do you do with the other 60%? 00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:15.759 That 60% needs some place to go. 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:19.440 Well, the 60% is actually a big deal when you think about it. 00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:34.960 And so having the ability to sell that here to and get uh uh and wafer making facilities that can come online now here, and then have the soul solar supply chain here to sell that 60% of the polystilicum production, that's a big deal. 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:39.840 And that says the company

is like the corneans, the hemlock, the vodkers of the world. 00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:44.799 Hey, you know, ramp up your production and continue producing polysilicum. 00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:54.639 I I love that you brought in baseball here because this is a perfect segue for for opportunity for me to question our our resident baseball player, Nick, um, to see if you had any questions. 00:09:54.879 --> 00:09:55.679 You see what I did there? 00:09:55.759 --> 00:09:56.879 That that was smooth, by the way. 00:09:56.960 --> 00:10:01.200 But Nick, did you I wanted to give you a chance to weigh in with questions or any comments you might have. 00:10:02.080 --> 00:10:07.519 Yeah, no, I uh I I'm I'm a washed up baseball player now who tries to play golf. 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:23.679 But no, I think what Tom is saying, you know, is is really important to understand that uh the whole reason why this is such an important 232 and the framework that we've seen is it is it does encompass the entire sector. 00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:38.960 And when you look at poly in particular, uh you know, certainly they really tried to figure out what is the best way to accommodate this entire supply chain, acknowledging that the poly producers they can make you know chip grade poly, and that's phenomenal. 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:53.759 Uh we really want a chip sector, but what do they do with this leftover piece when China has so dominated the global marketplace uh for solar grade polysilicon, not because they've outinnovated us or they're better companies. 00:10:53.919 --> 00:11:04.480 Um it's simply because we have allowed them to do it either through a lack of of enforcement or policy, uh and we've we've let them, you know, undercut our market and our producers. 00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:18.559 Uh so I think what's really smart here and and maybe uh you know, Tom, I mean you've spent over a decade, I think, you know, um, although you know he's he's still still looking, you know, very uh very you know very young. 00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:24.399 But but it's uh you've had you your experience in this sector uh is extensive. 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:37.759 I mean, you've been in the fights with these companies on the front lines, um across multiple trade cases, you you've seen firsthand what the Chinese can do, uh how they've gotten around some of these loopholes. 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:42.240 What really stands out to you in this one? 00:11:42.720 --> 00:12:02.799 I mean, I I know there's some concerns that we have around like the 120-day delay implementation, you know, we saw stockpiling during the Biden years with the moratorium, but you know, I I think on the whole, uh Under Secretary Kessler and his team, they really presented here the most comprehensive framework we've seen. 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:10.240 Um and and you know, we've heard from other members this should be a model for other 232s, or you know, why didn't they do this for our sector? 00:12:10.399 --> 00:12:12.080 So what stands out the most to you? 00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:13.519 What do you think they really got right? 00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:14.879 What should we be watching for? 00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:22.399 Well, so let me start with the the first one, which uh, you know, I think is something that might not be as obvious. 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:29.519 But they tried as hard as possible to get the market price to be at these levels. 00:12:29.679 --> 00:12:35.360 And by that I mean they have set the minimum import price standard as what it is. 00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:41.600 So that's that's the value that actually needs to be declared when you enter the merchandise into the United States. 00:12:41.679 --> 00:12:46.399 And if you're not at that level, what they've provided for is a specific tariff. 00:12:46.720 --> 00:13:00.159 And so when you think about it through the lens of what is the actual cost to me as the importer, so driving the cost elements, and and this is gonna be right up my here's uh line of thinking because I'm going right into economics, right? 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:02.639 So, and this would be a great study to do. 00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:07.039 But you have a 15% that is applied on the entry value. 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:17.200 And so intrinsically, as we just talked about with the special tariffs, when I think about offsetting any tariff impact, the first thing I think about is valuation. 00:13:17.440 --> 00:13:21.759 Could I reduce my entry value by a certain amount to offset the percentage? 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:24.159 Well, guess what happens when you do it here? 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:45.519 If you were to reduce the value below 22 cents per sell per watt for a sell uh to get away from the 3.3 cents that you would have to pay uh in the 15%, what you end up doing is actually adding an amount to get you back up to the 22 cents because they provided for a specific tariff that carries you up there. 00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:52.159 So let's say I reduce my sell import uh entered value to 20 cents per per watt. 00:13:52.480 --> 00:14:04.720 Well, all of a sudden, my actual tariff impact is five cents because I paid three cents for the 15% times the 20 cents, and then I have a two cent special tariff to get me back up to 22. 00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:10.799 And so by reducing my entry value, I'm worse off from an importer standpoint. 00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:17.840 So that's the first thing is that it's actually going to drive people to have to, you know, bring their entry values up. 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:28.320 And that's actually gonna be an interesting proposition for some people because then you turn around as the importer of record and you say, okay, I paid this much for the product. 00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:31.759 I'm gonna need to turn some kind of profit in the US, right? 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:41.600 And so they're gonna have to turn around and sell it to the first unrelated supplier for maybe a half a cent or a full cent higher per watt, even

though the related party cost of production is much lower. 00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:48.960 So that's the first thing is that that the specific tariff actually has bite to it that I don't think people uh it realize. 00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:56.799 I mean, it it there the world is is changing with that specific tariff because it's it's an absolute value of a cent each time you go down. 00:14:56.879 --> 00:14:58.159 It's not a percentage figure. 00:14:58.320 --> 00:14:59.120 So that's the first thing. 00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:08.879 The second thing is they have employed a certification regime that has been lacking in a lot of the suspension agreement context that I've talked to you about uh before. 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:14.240 Uh for years we had a suspension agreement with Mexico in uh trade in tomatoes. 00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:18.720 Uh it's a uh a case that our firm has been involved in uh for a number of years. 00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:31.759 And when Assistant Secretary Kessler was actually assistant secretary of enforcement and compliance, we were often in there with our clients and explaining to him why suspendure agreement was working, and he would say, Well, help me understand that because we've set a minimum import price. 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:32.720 Like, what's the problem? 00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:40.639 And we'd say, Listen, come with us to the LA terminal market, and you'll be able to see wholesale tomato prices well below that minimum import price. 00:15:40.799 --> 00:15:41.600 So he gets it. 00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:49.120 What he understands is that it can't just be on the import side because you know people are gonna, you know, move money around and do whatever. 00:15:49.279 --> 00:15:56.240 What they've created is this certification regime that requires you to certify to selling to the person related party. 00:15:56.320 --> 00:15:56.879 And guess what? 00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:06.480 If you don't certify or don't have the certifications, they're not just gonna apply penalties like we saw with the people who violated the tariff moratorium in solar. 00:16:06.639 --> 00:16:09.519 What they're going to do is they're gonna say, you can no longer import. 00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:11.759 That's as draconian as it gets. 00:16:12.159 --> 00:16:18.240 And so this is like the first time that I've seen them go to that level of a penalty, right? 00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:26.000 It you know, people would be fine, you know, taking a penalty of, you know, the full value of the merchandise they're found to be committing customs fraud. 00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:36.480 You commit some sort of violation here, which is simply not keeping a certificate or not supplying the certificate to CVP, you can lose your importation privileges, which means no more US market access. 00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:42.480 So those are the two things that I would call out as particularly um impactful with this one. 00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:46.799 And let me just comment really quickly on the four-month rollout period. 00:16:47.600 --> 00:17:01.440 You know, as somebody who lived through the Biden tariff moratorium, which was like the worst policy decision that probably was ever made with regard to you know dealing in trade, um, because it it set a red line of when it was going to end. 00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:04.000 So everybody was racing towards that finish line. 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:11.519 Um, we ended up having, you know, stockpile of merchandise here in the US that far exceeded deployment of this stuff. 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:14.000 You know, I I represent US companies. 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:19.279 I had Chinese companies calling uh left, right, and center saying, can't you do something about it? 00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:23.279 Because we're getting hammered on price because everybody is bringing stuff in. 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:27.920 So, like when the Chinese are saying the price is too low, that's when you know there's a real problem. 00:17:28.319 --> 00:17:34.799 Um but with this four-month one, they've actually put in a provision of referencing anti-stockpiling. 00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:50.240 And what I what why that is important is during the pendency of this 232 investigation, because of the uncertainty as to when it would drop, the trade was actually sort of holding back on projects. 00:17:50.400 --> 00:18:03.119 There, there you know, there was almost like this this reticence to bring in a lot of merchandise to try to to try to do something because the the the financing wasn't there, people were waiting on the sidelines to see how this one one shook out. 00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:11.359 Because there's a lot of information going on in in the atmosphere is that is it gonna be 100% tariffs, is it gonna be this, that, or you know, is there gonna be shortage of things? 00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:13.759 Um all of this was going on. 00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:18.400 And so what you had was actually almost a flattening of importation behavior. 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:25.920 You had new entrants come in and like so there are spikes of things, but it it wasn't like you know, you would see this like crest of a wave. 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:39.200 And so, because of that, I think what they've actually done is looked at those data and said, well, we're gonna be able to see stockpiling because if we see an uptick that wasn't there before, that's gonna be stockpiling. 00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:51.039 And so I think if you're an importer who is going to be, you know, trying to race to get this stuff in before December uh fourth, I think there's a real problem that you're gonna be facing that they're gonna be looking at uh, you know, very clearly. 00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:59.119 And again, that that that sort of Damocles over every importer's neck here about you can no longer import. 00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:06.960 You know, some of these companies don't just import cells and modules, they're importing raw materials to you know produce here in the US.

00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:10.559 If you can't import that stuff, I mean that's a real risk. 00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:18.000 And I think companies are gonna take, you know, a second to say, hold on, like let's be let's be mindful about what this all means. 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:20.480 Yeah, that's a word fit. 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:38.799 Yeah, I mean I think I think we got a good handle, I think, in that first segment about you know what this uh action does, and it finally seems like it's got some teeth, it's got some enforcement um i involved in it, and I think it we understand why, because of all the different ways that you know these policies can be circumvented. 00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:45.279 So I thought it would be good to maybe transition over to the second segment, which was how Beijing, you know, cornered the material in the first place. 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:51.920 So just to lay up just to give a lay of the land, China has produced like 93% of the world's polysilicon last year. 00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:54.559 Nine of the ten largest producers are Chinese. 00:19:54.880 --> 00:20:02.640 One of their companies alone can make roughly 910,000 tons a year, whereas America's largest producer might make up like 35,000. 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:06.880 Um and this is kind of a playbook that we've covered, which is pretty familiar to us at CPA. 00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:09.759 We talk about how China has built these choke points. 00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:27.920 Um, but you know, as an economist and the things that I learned in school, we talked about like comparative advantage and how, oh, you know, you just have natural endowments in one thing and you trade and all it's kind of it looks great on a textbook, but but this to me isn't necessarily about a story about like, you know, just um you know, natural endowments or comparative advantage. 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:30.720 It seems like largely, of course, the pot product of policy. 00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:35.839 I mean, there's a reason why China is able to undercut, you know, any you know, seller in the US. 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:37.920 Um, because we are making this stuff. 00:20:38.079 --> 00:20:48.240 We do have you know hemlock semiconductor, um, we do have uh Vokker, you know, and and these are the these kind of policies that we have are are needed to kind of keep them uh competitive. 00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:54.079 But but talk maybe a little bit about how Beijing accumulated the the resources to kind of build this choke point up. 00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:56.000 And we'll start there on the policy front. 00:20:56.480 --> 00:21:08.799 Yeah, so uh I mean the thing that China has that we don't have is they've got a single party system where the head of the government gets to determine what they do and what they focus in on. 00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:29.920 And so when you go back in time, um, you know, as China entered the modern um world and was led into the World Trade Organization, which meant we brought down all the tariffs worldwide on China, um, and they came into the fold of international trade, they developed what are called five-year industrial plans. 00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:37.920 And these five-year industrial plans would identify specific sectors of the economy that they wanted to um engage in. 00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:46.079 And every single one of those industrial plans, if you read them, indicates a desire to be dominant worldwide. 00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:54.960 And that I think is a different animal than anybody else has ever seen in modern history of being dominant worldwide. 00:21:55.119 --> 00:22:05.039 I mean, when you think about like being dominant worldwide, I immediately go into a World War II thing, like dominance in the skies, like it is battle cry type of thing, right? 00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:16.079 This coming in the context of economic policy, I look at it as battle cry type of thing there too, which was we are coming out into the world and we're going to take advantage of this. 00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:26.400 So if you go back, I think into 2006 is when you first start to see polysilicon and the polysilicon sectors enter into these five-year plans. 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:38.079 And so what you have over the period of time is that there's a message from the top that says these are the areas that we're going to focus in on, and we're going to do everything we can to support them. 00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:39.839 Well, what do they do to support it? 00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:45.759 Well, if you want to build a factory in China, you can get land for free from some of these industrial zones. 00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:46.880 They'll give it to you for free. 00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:47.759 You don't pay rent. 00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:48.960 You pay no rent. 00:22:49.039 --> 00:22:50.160 You don't have to buy the land. 00:22:50.319 --> 00:22:51.359 You get it for free. 00:22:51.599 --> 00:22:55.519 Some will say, okay, you come into our industrial zone, we'll give you electricity for free. 00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:58.000 And they can do that because it's all coal-fired power. 00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:04.000 So really, really cheap stuff, really, really dirty stuff, the stuff that's causing pollutants in the air constantly. 00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:09.200 Ironically, they're saying, don't blame us because we're doing all this green energy stuff. 00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:12.319 Yeah, well, you're building it with the most disgusting material possible. 00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:22.400 Um and so what they did was they were able to do that to help prop up and start their industry, but then that wasn't enough because they couldn't compete with US know-how. 00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:32.160 So what they did was um over the course of time, they started to take on things like uh chip manufacturing, which was sort of like the downstream of poly. 00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:38.559 And the polysilicon producers here in the US had to sell into the Chinese markets and make those chips.

00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:42.559 Well, all of a sudden there was a hundred percent tariff on U.S. 00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:43.599 polysilicon. 00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:46.640 And so we've lost the biggest market in China. 00:23:46.720 --> 00:24:01.279 So they basically did stand up their stuff, make somebody, you know, available for the know-how, learn US ways, then protect the market by cutting up the US and then creating a built-in market structure for themselves. 00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:13.119 And the way that they do that is that that's the most, you know, I don't know if you want to say diabolical, but I I I'll go there, is that they want to have the entire supply chain be dictated by their companies. 00:24:13.279 --> 00:24:27.119 And the reason why I say it's diabolical is because if you go back to 2018, you had a period of time where you had new technologies in cell production for generating more power from the sun's rays. 00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:30.000 And these were, you know, sort of like moving in parallel. 00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:33.839 There was like the baseline stuff, and then there was like the more advanced stuff. 00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:40.000 Well, China saw what was happening and they said, well, hold on a second, like we're gonna pump the brakes on this thing. 00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:51.039 And what they did was they went to the um uh equipment manufacturers that stopped making the equipment to make those specific size cells for that technology. 00:24:51.279 --> 00:24:57.200 You need to start making equipment for bigger wafer making for bigger cells for a different technology. 00:24:57.440 --> 00:25:06.880 And so they basically changed the entire trajectory of the marketplace by having the ability to make the equipment to do the cell production. 00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:10.400 Like that's where it's so like mind-blowing, right? 00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:11.839 And how do they do that? 00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:17.599 They all get in a room and talk, and they say, You're gonna do this, and you're gonna do that, and you're gonna do this. 00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:38.319 If you go back two years where we had this massive glut of production in the in the world market of solar, you had basically China having weekly meetings with the major companies saying, You're gonna curtail production this week, you're gonna stand down production, you're not gonna hire, you're not gonna produce, you're not gonna do this. 00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:44.000 And then the other thing is they have the wherewithal to be able to stand up the demand sector. 00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:53.440 So even though they were telling people to curtail production, they basically were installing, you know, all this sol all the solar fields, you know, all throughout China. 00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:57.680 But I'll tell you what, hardly any of them are actually connected to the grid. 00:25:57.920 --> 00:26:06.400 And they're not connected to the grid on purpose because they're basically saying we're gonna find somewhere to put all this stuff to have you know production to be able to stand up this. 00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:16.240 But we're not gonna undermine our coal-fired power plant because that's what drives our competitiveness in every other sector, including, you know, aluminum and steel and be able to undercut the world prices there. 00:26:16.400 --> 00:26:21.119 So, you know, this is a it's a really interesting um history here. 00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:34.160 I mean, I think we could probably spend hours talking about those five-year plans, but it really does go back to you know baseline 2001 when China was all led into the WTO and and the world market was open to it. 00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:50.799 Yeah, and I I guess, you know, what oh I'm sorry, Nick, did you want to jump in or maybe well I I think just one of the most interesting points about this this is so different from what we're used to seeing, you know, in the US and and maybe even in European markets. 00:26:51.359 --> 00:27:06.559 Uh but it's really important for policymakers to understand that you know when we're designing policy in the U.S., whether it's trade policy, industrial policy, it it's always with you know the mindset that we want these private companies to be profitable. 00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:12.480 You know, and and if they if they're driving profitability, they're able to invest, they're able to grow. 00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:17.359 Uh with the Chinese, they don't care about profitability at all. 00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:20.960 Uh they simply care about capturing global market share. 00:27:21.359 --> 00:27:32.640 And I think it's why a lot of our policies have failed to not necessarily fail to make an impact, but certainly failed in the past to deliver the kind of results that were promised of them. 00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:43.279 Um I think what is is so unique about this new polyproc, and you know, maybe as we we wrap, we should think about what what can we judge its success by. 00:27:43.759 --> 00:27:53.440 Uh but it's clear that that commerce and the Trump administration with this one is really thinking about we're recognizing that China doesn't care about profitability. 00:27:53.599 --> 00:27:57.039 They'll drive the price down as much as possible to have access to the U.S. 00:27:57.279 --> 00:27:57.599 market. 00:27:58.160 --> 00:28:05.599 And they responded with a framework that I think accommodates that in a completely new way, you know, to keep them out of the U.S. 00:28:05.759 --> 00:28:08.160 market where they can really undervalue product. 00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:13.119 Uh because as Tom said, if they undervalue the product, they get hit with a specific tariff. 00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:14.480 That's very punitive. 00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:23.039 Um, if if they import at the MIP level, you know, then I think we have to judge, you know, are the MIP levels at the right spot? 00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:24.240 Is everything working? 00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:40.720 But you

know, maybe just as we were looking towards, you know, the future of this, um, and I do think, you know, this will be heavily judged if it's successful or not, because there's been so much policy around solar uh in particular on trade. 00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:50.880 Um what are things, you know, we obviously represent the entire supply chain, you know, of manufacturers at CPA from poly all the way through to module. 00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:55.920 Uh I think when we talked with Commerce, you know, they really wanted to see still and wafer investment. 00:28:56.079 --> 00:29:02.799 But you know, as as someone who's been in this sector longer than we have, you know, Tom, I mean, what what are you looking for to see? 00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:08.480 You know, is is there certain trade things you're looking for on import levels or pricing or investments? 00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:09.519 Is it all of it? 00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:11.200 You give us a a little preview. 00:29:11.599 --> 00:29:18.319 Yeah, so the first thing I'm looking for is is the minimum import price that's carried through to the market price going to stick? 00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:24.240 And by that I mean the first concern that I have stems from my history in in ag. 00:29:24.880 --> 00:29:27.680 And it's you know, that tomatoes example, right? 00:29:27.920 --> 00:29:32.720 Let's say I caught the guy with the tomatoes selling them below the minimum import price. 00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:38.400 Well, next week what he's gonna do is he's gonna be selling tomatoes bundled with green peppers. 00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:42.799 And I'm not gonna be able to show where the offsets are there. 00:29:43.039 --> 00:30:12.400 And that's I think the major concern I have is that you know, we need to be thinking about what does enforcement look like if we all of a sudden see a Chinese company that acquires a installation or distribution or um uh uh a developer, and they can basically bundle to the first unrelated party the whole can caboodle, right? 00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:22.880 And all of a sudden you go from you know 38 cents per watt for a module down to like a blended price with installation and everything like that that is far below that. 00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:26.559 And I'm not sure how visible that will be in order to be enforced. 00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:33.200 And so that's an element that I think you know, baseline we've gotta we'd gotta be talking about enforcement there. 00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:38.960 The second thing that I think is uh uh uh you know, is this going to be successful? 00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:43.839 Is really kind of close the donut hole in the supply chain. 00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:48.240 And the biggest donut hole right now is Engiproing and wafer making. 00:30:48.640 --> 00:31:02.640 And people might not think this is particularly special because all you're doing is you're taking the polysilicon, you're putting it into like a lab structure, you're growing this beautiful ingot, and then you're

using a laser slicer to slice that into wafers. 00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:06.400 And you know, you'd sort of like shrug and say, okay, like how hard is that? 00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:09.920 I mean, from the technology perspective, it's not, it's the machinery. 00:31:10.079 --> 00:31:26.160 Where it gets really hard in the United States is that we have a regulatory environment that doesn't like a lot of water usage that you know is not necessarily going into consumption by you know animals or people uh or things like that. 00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:30.160 And and wafer making and ingot growing takes a lot of water. 00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:31.839 It also takes a lot of energy. 00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:37.200 And the environment that we're in with new AI data centers, you know, those energy costs are going up. 00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:56.000 And so from a US policy perspective, you know, are the differentials where you've got$100 per kg equivalent for wafer to 22 cents per watt for cell, is that delta significant enough to incentivize the wafer making to come online? 00:31:56.160 --> 00:31:58.319 Because that's really the biggest problem that we have right now. 00:31:58.480 --> 00:32:02.720 We can't really control our own destiny because you've got to go offshore for wafers. 00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:14.640 And just as I said with regards to the equipment uh example from 2018, you also had wafer changes over the course of the 2010s where China was constantly changing the wafer sizes, which dictate the cell sizes. 00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:22.720 So if we can get away from having to rely on others for the wafers, that's where I think this policy can can also be successful. 00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:27.119 And the final thing I'll say, I mean, does this go far enough? 00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:38.480 The supply chain for a bill of materials to produce uh a solar module, you know, a solar cell, includes a lot of materials that we probably want to have produced here in the U.S. 00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:44.400 I mean, I think the people who you know produce extruded aluminum, like they produce great things. 00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:48.720 I mean, you bought a boat in Florida, like half of the stuff there is extruded aluminum. 00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:52.079 I mean, we want to have the ability to make some really nice stuff here. 00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:53.920 Well, solar frames are in that space. 00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:54.480 And guess what? 00:32:54.640 --> 00:33:02.319 Steel is actually a great uh framing technology too, with with uh some of the stuff that you know the companies are doing in the steel sector. 00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:05.599 And so is that an area that we should be talking about protecting? 00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:11.759 The other thing is, you know, things like um uh paste and uh electromaterial inverters. 00:33:11.839 --> 00:33:19.440 I mean, there's a lot of stuff that goes into the bill of material that are things that are sensitive and go into technology elsewhere.

00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:21.599 And so it's something that we could be thinking about. 00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:25.440 You know, China is the dominant supplier of silver paste in the entire world. 00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:27.440 Could we have silver paste production here? 00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:27.920 I don't know. 00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:38.240 I mean, we've got the ability through mining to have that, including if our relationship with Canada gets resolved this week uh with certain trade deals, there's opportunities there for silver paste. 00:33:38.319 --> 00:33:43.599 It's almost like I'd like to have a Fortress North America idea with respect respect to these types of articles. 00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:51.039 And that's where I'm wondering if a version 2.0 of this, if we start to see things work well, includes more of that build material. 00:33:51.839 --> 00:33:53.279 Yeah, that's a great point. 00:33:53.759 --> 00:34:03.440 We we actually have the aluminum extruders, and uh they they used to make these frames for the solar sector, you know, years ago. 00:34:03.599 --> 00:34:10.639 Uh and and we saw that, you know, their their ability to provide this um profitably, you know, where they weren't being undercut. 00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:17.280 We saw that go away fairly quickly once, you know, we we saw the trade protection sort of degraded on the aluminum side. 00:34:17.440 --> 00:34:29.440 But I think there's there's a lot of interesting things you said there, and and really getting into something, maybe a little foreshadowing of something that we've been talking about, which is there's all this energy generation happening. 00:34:29.599 --> 00:34:36.239 You know, it's not just the solar panel or the natural gas turbine, but it's all the different pieces that go into it, the copper wiring. 00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:40.960 Um, you know, could we see some type of energy generation 232? 00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:44.559 There's a huge boom happening in the AI space. 00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:50.079 Uh we've seen, you know, uh huge demand for more gigawatts to the grid. 00:34:50.239 --> 00:34:54.400 Uh I think we're importing like 80-some percent of the equipment to do energy generation. 00:34:54.480 --> 00:34:54.559 Uh. 00:34:54.800 --> 00:34:57.440 And you know, why wouldn't we want to make more of that here? 00:34:57.920 --> 00:35:07.760 Uh and I think the the really the huge benefit to all that is we start to see this web of like interconnectedness where the industrial sectors, you know, overlap. 00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:10.800 You know, it's not just solar, but it's aluminum, it's steel. 00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:18.880 You know, a company like um, you know, NextPower, you know, formerly Next Tracker, right, an incredible company building a whole bunch of stuff. 00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:27.360 You know, they're a technology, they're a steel company, um, you know, they're building systems for utility scale solar, but they use all of our members' materials. 00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:30.880 You know, I think they they purchase steel from our member companies. 00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:35.280 Um these are the kinds of companies that are benefiting from this type of policy, right? 00:35:35.360 --> 00:35:38.960 It's not just the solar manufacturer, the polyproducer. 00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:41.840 You know, so the jobs we created really spread out. 00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:43.440 Um, well, definitely that. 00:35:43.519 --> 00:35:52.559 I mean, one of the things that you often hear from opponents of of solar um uh is that you know it only works when the sun's shine. 00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:57.360 Yeah, that's true, up until you get to battery storage. 00:35:57.679 --> 00:36:07.039 Because battery storage is the key that unlocks the ability for solar to be a 24-hour supply source, right, from an electricity perspective. 00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:18.800 And and what you see at a lot of these new bills is that actually battery storage is in fact being you know built into the whole premise of what's going on there. 00:36:18.880 --> 00:36:34.480 And that actually makes a lot of sense just from an energy policy perspective, because just like in in solar, you know, net gas, you'll see fluctuations over the course of a day hourly, you'll see fluctuation in the price of net gas. 00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:41.039 Well, that does drive some impact through the supply chain. 00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:49.679 And if you got to battery storage at scale here in the US, which I I would like to, I think that's like the next frontier of what we need to do here. 00:36:49.840 --> 00:37:04.559 Um, you you get the benefits of having these sources be a little bit more constant because you can draw from those at these larger uh electricity-intensive uh programs like an AI data center. 00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:18.400 Um, you know, you can you can have solar on the roof, you can have that augmented with NAT gas, and it all goes into a battery storage facility that's like literally right next door to you, and you can draw power through the day, through the night. 00:37:18.559 --> 00:37:19.519 And guess what? 00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:30.480 I I guarantee you, if we got there, everybody who was looking at their electricity bills now from the consumer perspective would say, Holy cow, my electricity bills are going down. 00:37:31.039 --> 00:37:35.440 Because we would then have we would then have it all make sense through VS Disas. 00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:38.079 Yeah. 00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:42.559 I was thinking, I was thinking like, so we've covered a lot of ground. 00:37:42.639 --> 00:37:49.760 I wanted to move us to the the third piece, and and Tom, you kind of have kind of um mentioned a little bit raising the question about like will this work? 00:37:49.840 --> 00:38:07.920 And I wanted to step back for a second and think about, you know, from from my vantage point, I think about a lot of the policies that have been uh implemented to try to, you know, try to limit

China's rise in this in this space because of you know whether it's aiding dumping, countervailing duties that, you know, and and you know, you dated yourself a little bit. 00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:09.280 I d I'll date myself a little bit. 00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:25.679 I was I was at the ITC during the time when a lot of these trade cases were happening, a lot of these AD C B D duties coming out, and happened to see just like how China had a was really adept at circumventing these rules and just upping uh uprooting production and moving it to a different jurisdiction, all of a sudden it's in Southeast Asia. 00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:34.239 And then even seeing, you know, you mentioned uh the the I think it was the uh the two-year holiday uh on Southeast Asian panels that we then allowed uh to happen. 00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:37.440 And there's been some policy inconsistencies that we've had. 00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:40.079 So I get back to the question of like, will this work? 00:38:40.239 --> 00:39:00.239 How important is it to number one just be on the same page, whether whether whatever administration we have in place, um the consistency of focus on this issue, and then also just uh appropriately leveraging the tools that we have to try to um really just kind of limit this kind of activity, this kind of malfeasance that we're seeing from China. 00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:03.920 So let me just put it really simply, no loopholes, right? 00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:07.039 Like once you create a loophole, that loophole will be exploited. 00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:12.079 And and Mary, you may remember this from your time uh at the ICD. 00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:20.960 We for years we didn't have uh a safeguard uh because of the way that the World Trade Organization reacted to the way we applied the safeguard measures. 00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:32.800 And when when the Trump administration said, enough, we're not gonna have you know six unnamed bureaucrats in Geneva tell us how to interpret our laws, uh, we all of a sudden have the ability to bring safeguard cases again. 00:39:33.039 --> 00:39:36.719 The solar safeguard was one that was an opportunity. 00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:42.960 And by that I mean, you know, there there was the ability to instill some discipline in the market. 00:39:43.119 --> 00:39:46.559 Uh safeguard remedies have a lot of different benefits to them. 00:39:46.639 --> 00:39:52.960 There it was a a tariff-free quota as well as as a tariff, and it was universal in application for the most part. 00:39:53.199 --> 00:40:15.039 The exceptions were, you know, for developing countries, and there we didn't really have a lot of the whack-a-mole problems until a couple of years into the into the safeguard when all of a sudden Cambodia, you know, known solar powerhouse Cambodia, came onto the scene uh not because they were really good at the technology, but they were excluded from the safeguard as a as a developing country, quote unquote. 00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:21.199 The next thing that happened, though, was that we excluded from the safeguard what were called five-facial panels. 00:40:21.280 --> 00:40:25.119 So this is where you generate electricity on both sides of the panel. 00:40:25.599 --> 00:40:32.639 That was pushed by uh big energy companies who said, this this technology doesn't exist in the United States. 00:40:32.960 --> 00:40:45.280 Well, had anybody picked up the phone to call one of the longest running US producers in auxin solar, oxen would say, here's three different projects we just did on bifacial panels. 00:40:45.360 --> 00:41:06.480 And so once they excluded bifacial panels with this pitch by the energy company saying they couldn't get it, um, all of a sudden you had a situation where the Chinese were essentially painting the bifacial panels black in order to put them on a roof and still call them bifacial panels, even though they were only like on a roof generating electricity from one side of the panel. 00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:10.960 And so this the summary of all this is no loopholes. 00:41:11.119 --> 00:41:12.000 We can't have them. 00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:18.239 And so, like the reason for this 232, why it's so great, is that A, no developing country loopholes. 00:41:18.400 --> 00:41:29.519 So you're not gonna go and be able to go to you know where China's going now in Africa to you know set up a module making facility using all Chinese bill material and then ship it to the US. 00:41:29.679 --> 00:41:33.280 That ain't gonna happen now to avoid these the the this measure. 00:41:33.679 --> 00:41:36.960 B, you're you you we're not gonna exclude any product, right? 00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:41.360 You could see here this is modules writ large, cells writ large. 00:41:41.440 --> 00:41:43.679 Like nothing is called out as an exemption. 00:41:43.840 --> 00:41:52.800 And I think if you're you know it if folks who are listening to this come to DC and they go to the White House and they mention the word exclusion, it's like saying a four-letter word to your grandmother. 00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:55.440 Like you're gonna get you're gonna get slapped for doing it, right? 00:41:55.760 --> 00:41:57.679 We're not talking about exclusions anymore. 00:41:57.840 --> 00:41:59.840 We're having these universal tariffs. 00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:10.800 And so those two things on their own should address some of the things that we've had happen in the past that undermine the remedies that have been put in place. 00:42:11.199 --> 00:42:18.880 Lastly, though, I think what is so important is that we have a continuity in policy. 00:42:19.119 --> 00:42:34.639 You know, in the United States, for better or worse, we have lots of process for people to say, I don't want this facility in my backyard, I don't want you to build this new facility, I need to get permission to get this type of electricity, this type of water. 00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:37.360 It takes time to get these things up and running. 00:42:37.599

--> 00:43:02.559 To have this going into place in December of 2026, and then if we have a change in administration, and all of a sudden in the middle of you know 20 2030 or or after we have all this stuff pulled out from under us, you know, we're gonna be in a worse-off position because there's gonna be companies who are gonna say, you fooled me once and yet I still made an investment, and then you fooled me again. 00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:21.440 And I think that's where you know I think the risk is is that you know, in 2029, you know, and early 2029, if there is a switch in administration, there's going to be this impulse, uh, especially in solar for some reason, this impulse to side with like the installation side of the business. 00:43:21.679 --> 00:43:33.440 And I'm hopeful that we have a full calendar year of 2027 and all of 2028 to prove everybody wrong that having minimum import prices is not going to be ruinous for the industry. 00:43:33.519 --> 00:43:35.519 It's not going to put people out of jobs. 00:43:35.679 --> 00:43:40.079 In fact, what I'd say is it's going to give more opportunity for more jobs. 00:43:40.239 --> 00:43:43.119 It's going to provide more opportunity for investment in the United States. 00:43:43.280 --> 00:43:57.519 Some of the some of the money is that sitting on the sidelines is going to come into the sector and say, let's put, let's, let's put a solar uh cell facility in in one of these one of these uh states that that we can we can rely on to be supportive. 00:43:57.679 --> 00:44:02.880 Let's put in a wafer making facility because we Got uh you know the ecosystem set up. 00:44:02.960 --> 00:44:10.559 And you know, I think from there, if we have that happen, what I would hope is that the people who are all for green energy look around and say, you know what? 00:44:10.800 --> 00:44:12.960 This is green energy through and through. 00:44:13.119 --> 00:44:19.519 It's not dirty coal, it's not international shipping, it's not benefiting from forced labor policies. 00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:29.599 It is truly, you know, getting back to what America created in the 1950s when we first came up with this technology and then mastered it in the 2000s before China stole it from us. 00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:31.360 Yeah, yeah. 00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:39.840 At the top of the show, I called Beijing the gatekeeper of this material, and August 6th, the the proc was like the first action aimed at what we call the gate itself. 00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:43.760 So the whole chain is being tackled at once instead of one case at a time. 00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:51.760 And Tom, I think before we let you go, I wanted to ask you real quick, what's the one thing you'd want our listeners to take away about this action? 00:44:53.519 --> 00:45:01.119 So over the course of a number of years I've been arguing for tariffs on solar cells and modules. 00:45:01.440 --> 00:45:04.719 And I have received a lot of hate mail. 00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:14.800 I've been told

that I am um in the pocket of big oil, that I want nothing more than, you know, uh a dirty life. 00:45:14.880 --> 00:45:25.280 Uh I want nothing more than, you know, three centigrade of increase to the global temperature when, you know, one and a half is is accepted as as too much. 00:45:25.599 --> 00:45:43.519 Um what I would say is what I'm in favor of is having the ability to control our own destiny, having good paying jobs in areas of the country that have been forgotten in some respects and looked down upon in other respects. 00:45:43.760 --> 00:45:46.159 And there is dignity in work. 00:45:46.320 --> 00:46:04.800 Um what I will tell you is when I travel to visit clients in all sectors and I get to go to a factory, it's one of the best parts of my job, honestly, because I get to sit and talk with people who I may never come across in my life in the normal course of the day. 00:46:05.039 --> 00:46:07.599 Um, you know, they're working really hard jobs. 00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:09.920 I'm lucky to be in an office in Washington, D.C. 00:46:10.239 --> 00:46:17.679 But when we sit down and talk about it, what I hear from them is um we just want a level playing field. 00:46:17.840 --> 00:46:21.920 If you give us a level playing field, we're gonna work just as hard. 00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:24.639 We're gonna actually make better products because we care. 00:46:24.800 --> 00:46:25.440 And you know what? 00:46:25.599 --> 00:46:32.960 We want to be able to walk down the street and see that solar farm that you know the municipality is putting in be US-made product. 00:46:33.119 --> 00:46:42.480 I want to drive down the highway and I want to see the cranes that I help build or that are helping build infrastructure here be US made cranes and not warren cranes. 00:46:42.559 --> 00:46:55.519 Like there's something about the dignity of putting your hands on something and making something and then seeing it in reality and being able to look at your kid and feel good about what you're providing for them and saying that's what that's what dad and mom made today. 00:46:55.679 --> 00:46:56.639 Like that's what we did. 00:46:56.800 --> 00:47:11.360 And that's where I what I would say to everybody who's listening is that you know, if we make it here, we're be better off for it, health-wise, work-wise, personality-wise, professional-wise, like we're all gonna be better for it. 00:47:11.440 --> 00:47:12.159 And you know what? 00:47:12.320 --> 00:47:22.800 If we can all sit down and understand that um, you know, if we have jobs in this country and we're making things in this country, we'll be able to have dignity and look at each other. 00:47:22.960 --> 00:47:29.519 I guarantee you that all of us who have kids are gonna look at our kids and say, we've definitely done right by you. 00:47:29.599 --> 00:47:31.519 And that's where I come out at this. 00:47:32.719 --> 00:47:34.000 Yeah, I love that. 00:47:34.239 --> 00:47:34.719 I love that. 00:47:34.880 --> 00:47:38.719 Yeah, you got me fired up to do get back to my desk and do some work this evening. 00:47:38.880 --> 00:48:01.920 And I'll tell you what, uh, just as a real quick uh re reminder, uh, I don't think that the folks you know in in China can necessarily look at the the labor force in in Xinjiang and and and say that sort of pride and the dignity uh that you just mentioned and the importance of that because like they're they're robbing their workforce of dignity, you know, and all in the name of getting a lower price, you know, polysilicon and all the other products that they're putting out there. 00:48:02.079 --> 00:48:04.400 Um so you know, I had to throw that out. 00:48:05.119 --> 00:48:06.719 Isn't that something that's nice to have here too? 00:48:06.880 --> 00:48:08.960 Like let's let's let's take one step back. 00:48:09.199 --> 00:48:12.320 We've created a minimum import price for the United States, okay? 00:48:12.559 --> 00:48:17.039 What that means is that you no longer have to force somebody to do labor. 00:48:17.199 --> 00:48:18.000 You can pay them. 00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:21.599 You can actually pay them more when it's the dirtiest stuff in the world. 00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:43.679 And so for all the people on the left who want to, you know, have you know, say that this president goes too far in this space, goes, you know, way down the line too far in trade, is not, you know, is not thinking about it, you know, there's a person who is being forced to do work to build this stuff in the worst conditions. 00:48:43.840 --> 00:48:49.360 I mean, there are some of the the materials that go into this are sometimes really nasty materials. 00:48:49.679 --> 00:48:59.280 And wouldn't it be great knowing that you can sell this product for 22 cents a watt for a cell or 38 cents a watt for a module, and be able to say, you know what? 00:48:59.440 --> 00:49:08.719 I could pay that person a couple more uh RMB per hour because, you know, all of a sudden I've got this space because the market is correcting itself. 00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:13.039 We're no longer in this unfair market where I also need to be unfair to my people. 00:49:13.199 --> 00:49:18.880 And so, you know, uh you bring up a really good point that there are there's hope, I guess is what I would say with this. 00:49:18.960 --> 00:49:22.800 And that that may be the best thing to say about the T32 program. 00:49:23.360 --> 00:49:27.039 Yeah, you're not just in vet you're not just paying a wage, you're investing in communities. 00:49:27.119 --> 00:49:30.559 I mean, if there's a it's a multiplier effect to all of this, it's so critical. 00:49:30.719 --> 00:49:34.960 Um, Tom Boleyn, thank you of Cassidy Levy Kent, thank you so much for for joining us. 00:49:35.119 --> 00:49:37.039 Nick, thank you for uh pinch hitting. 00:49:37.280 --> 00:49:41.199 Again, I gotta throw in the baseball uh reference uh for those who are following. 00:49:41.920 --> 00:49:48.559 Um learn more about our work at prosperousamerica.org and be sure to find us on YouTube. 00:49:48.880 --> 00:49:54.320 Uh you can check us out for the big three on Apple, Spotify, and Google wherever you get to podcasts. 00:49:54.639 --> 00:49:54.880 Thank you.