Pełna transkrypcja odcinka Shashi Mandapaty, Chief Procurement Officer, Former Johnson & Johnson Executive - Lessons From Leading Global Procurement

which is significantly capital intensive, like research and capital in in cancer, there has to be a sustainable model, right? 00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:32.319 And so that other people will fall by the wayside very quickly. 00:04:32.560 --> 00:04:34.240 So that's what I was trying to create. 00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:43.040 And that was the that was the business plan, uh, quote unquote, that I presented, and uh which now we will be moving forward. 00:04:43.360 --> 00:04:44.240 That's really exciting. 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:48.959 Well, congratulations and and and I guess thank you for all of your good work. 00:04:49.040 --> 00:04:50.639 I mean, it's it's really amazing to see. 00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:54.959 And and in terms of making the business case work, I mean, I think there's a I have a million questions. 00:04:55.120 --> 00:05:09.439 I know we've talked about this before, but what do you feel like the big gap is right now at the National Cancer Institute where you feel like, hey, like this new area of research, because I remember it was something about specifically creating some kind of biomarker repository. 00:05:09.519 --> 00:05:18.480 I'm I'm not a biologist, and so, but I remember that there were some specific things to Indian genome that, if studied a little bit better, you think could provide better outcomes. 00:05:18.639 --> 00:05:20.240 I I'd love to understand that a little bit. 00:05:21.120 --> 00:05:30.720 Actually, it's it's not just about uh this specific organization, like in general, in general, research, cancer research in India lags behind the rest of the world. 00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:32.240 That's a it's a known issue. 00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:40.720 Now, the disease itself, it's very unfortunate, but India has the gold medal, the silver medal, and bronze medal in a in in the wrong place. 00:05:40.959 --> 00:05:45.439 What I mean by that is the incidence-wise, India is number three in the world. 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:45.680 Okay. 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:47.600 Behind the US and China. 00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:49.120 So absolute incidence. 00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:54.000 And then you look at the uh the mortality, we are number two, right? 00:05:54.160 --> 00:05:58.879 So number of deaths because of cancer, India is next only to China. 00:05:59.759 --> 00:06:09.759 And and then if you look at the ratio of uh mortality to incidence, India is number one amongst the top 10 high incidence countries in the world. 00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:11.839 So which basically means that, and that is 65%. 00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:24.639 Just for perspective, in the US, it is 25%, which means if someone is detected with cancer in India, odds are that they will they will succumb to the to the disease in 65% of the cases, whereas it is 25%. 00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:31.439 It's almost like you know, three times more chances of potential death in India versus let's say in the US. 00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:35.839 And this is based on a registry which is which is only 10%.

00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:40.319 Okay, so only 10% of the expansive cases are actually reported in India. 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:45.120 And most of them, as you know, based on your work in India, most of them tend to be urban. 00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:46.240 Of course, yeah. 00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:48.560 Rural cancer is not reported. 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:59.439 I don't have any data because it is not reported, but if you were to, I mean, it's it's not that difficult to hypothesize that if you were to add rural data in, those numbers will only get worse, right? 00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:05.120 And the nature of the disease is very different in India versus versus let's say the US, right? 00:07:05.199 --> 00:07:11.199 So US cancer is largely a disease of the of the aging, right? 00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:20.240 So prostate cancer, for example, amongst men is the is almost a third of the total incidences of of cancer, which is which comes with age. 00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:31.120 In India, it's unfortunate, but cancer is primarily a disease of the young, and and it's it's most of the cancer that happens in India is avoidable cancer. 00:07:31.439 --> 00:07:38.639 What I mean by that is the number one cause for cancer in India is is a habit, and that is tobacco. 00:07:38.959 --> 00:07:39.360 Right. 00:07:39.519 --> 00:07:39.839 Right? 00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:43.839 So oral tobacco consumption and smoking, right? 00:07:43.920 --> 00:07:44.560 Those are the two. 00:07:44.959 --> 00:07:46.399 So tobacco is the number one. 00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:51.680 So just like so a third of male cancers in India come from tobacco. 00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:58.079 And then the other big reason for cancers in India is also avoidable, which is infectious reasons. 00:07:58.240 --> 00:08:00.240 So, for example, cervical cancer. 00:08:00.399 --> 00:08:08.160 So there are other uh cancers which come from infections, which are I would consider avoidable because there are vaccines available. 00:08:08.240 --> 00:08:16.000 So with the right level of awareness and with the right level of adoption of the of these uh vaccines, we could avoid those those cancers, right? 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:21.680 So that's just the nature of the disease is different in these in these two countries, even where it is, where it is common. 00:08:21.839 --> 00:08:27.600 For example, breast cancer is the number one cancer amongst women in both the both the countries. 00:08:27.759 --> 00:08:36.639 But breast cancer in in the US is mostly post-menopausal women, whereas whereas in India it's still it's almost a decade earlier. 00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:49.120 So late 30s and early 40s is when women in UC breast cancer incidence, which again shows that the epidemiology needs to be studied, needs to be understood better as to why that is happening. 00:08:49.279 --> 00:08:58.080 And I'm sure there are there are good reasons, and but those good reasons need to be identified, and then strategies need to be need to be planned across the full spectrum, right? 00:08:58.159 --> 00:09:02.639 So it's not just treatment, it's awareness, it's diagnostic, early diagnostics. 00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:07.440 You know, the other data point is that most of these cancers are detected very late. 00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:13.440 So diagnostics, patients, affordable patient care, and then you know, maybe palliative care. 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:18.000 So all of those areas needs to be evaluated and studied. 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:22.480 And that's the reason why research in India on cancer is critical. 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:28.000 So it's not just NCI or it's not, I mean, in general, it there is a there is a problem. 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:31.279 The problem is different from what we see elsewhere. 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:34.720 Of course, we can learn and we will build on research from elsewhere. 00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:39.840 Needs to have India-specific research to solve this major problem. 00:09:40.159 --> 00:09:40.879 No, it's interesting. 00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:42.559 And thanks for sharing this, Shashi. 00:09:42.799 --> 00:09:56.320 How much overlap versus uh difference do you think there will be longer term between the research that's happening in the United States at like a Johns Hopkins versus the research that's happening in India at the National Cancer Institute? 00:09:56.639 --> 00:09:57.519 I think it's a great question. 00:09:57.840 --> 00:10:01.039 The point is it it will be, it will build off each other. 00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:07.200 So basically, uh it's not like this is this is a different research and there's a different research and there is some Venn diagram. 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:14.559 The reality is that most of the basic research, I don't think, you know, for example, National Cancer Institute in India would get it. 00:10:15.279 --> 00:10:21.279 Most organizations of that nature would rely on basic research from the John Hopkins of the world, right? 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:26.000 But what you would need is what I would call as translational research. 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:45.120 So taking that basic research and identifying the kind of problems that I just talked about, and then seeing how we can translate these bench side insights into bedside actions in a way that is very effective for the specific problems in India. 00:10:45.279 --> 00:10:45.440 Right. 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:49.600 So it's more on the translational side that that research will start. 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:54.879 Now, it's it's almost impossible to draw a partition and say that this is translational research. 00:10:55.120 --> 00:10:57.279 We will not do basic, it's not possible. 00:10:57.519 --> 00:11:07.039 But we've identified four or five critical research areas that need to be addressed that need to be understood better to have to improve patient outcomes in um in India. 00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:12.720 Whatever is the basic research needed for that, we may do uh locally, but otherwise we will

be relying on research. 00:11:12.879 --> 00:11:14.639 Research is a very collaborative game. 00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:20.000 Work will happen all over the world and you know it builds off each other, and that's what is going to happen. 00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:24.480 And the work that happens in India will be of benefit to the rest of the world as well. 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:26.480 For example, you mentioned biorepository, right? 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:34.799 We would be one of the aspects of this uh is to set up a biorepository which would become the world's largest translated biorepository. 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:41.279 So what it means is that it's this is not just physical storage of tissue and blood, et cetera, but it's also annotations, right? 00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:58.320 It is the genomic data, the the all the multi-omic data that comes with it, the patient, the EMR information, all of that is is in the form of a almost like a digital twin of the sample, is all of this data that can be of use anywhere in the world, right? 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:06.720 So I think that there is benefit both ways, and it's a collaborative uh most research tends to be highly collaborative, and that's how that's how it would be. 00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:17.679 And one of the and one of the sort of the keynote hallmarks of a biorepository is that you're acting, and maybe folks don't know this, but you're actually storing the physical tissue samples, not just the data. 00:12:17.919 --> 00:12:27.840 And so is the thought that that would then be used by the institute for research as as drugs are being developed and you want to sample across a broader range of tissues. 00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:32.240 I'm sort of curious how the link between the biorepository and the outcomes, you know? 00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:36.720 Yeah, so uh a biorepository is typically the starting point for many of these. 00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:58.240 So so let's say you are a principal investigator, you're you're you're starting research in a specific area, and let's say you're looking for a specific uh head and neck cancer for a particular type, a male, 50 plus, who was suffering from Lynch syndrome and hence has a has had a tumor in in his intestines, and you would want to start with that. 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:01.120 And so that that let's say that's the kind of profile. 00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:10.799 If you have that tissue, first of all, collected in the right way, which means it has been collected using all the right protocols, but also with all the ethical checks, right? 00:13:10.879 --> 00:13:14.399 So so there's there's a lot of ethics involved in in all of this. 00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:24.960 So let's say let's say you have that sample, and then you have that sample annotated with all the information that you need, and that is the starting point for uh for any researcher, right? 00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:29.200 So the sooner they can get access to such samples, the faster would be the research.

00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:42.399 Many times you have researchers who are stuck because they want a specific, let's say, pediatric sample, and there are not enough patients, or at least even if there are patients of that nature, they're not the sample is not being being stored or they don't have access to it. 00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:48.960 So as a result of which, the research might get, might wait for like two to three years, sometimes four years, many years, right? 00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:54.799 To before they can even find an adequate number of samples to get the to to start their work. 00:13:55.039 --> 00:14:03.919 We're hoping that one of the many things that that this research initiative will accomplish is that it'll accelerate uh that kind of investigations. 00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:05.120 You know, it's amazing. 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:08.159 We um, you know, I'll just share just a small tidbit. 00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:20.799 When I when I started at Harvard Business School, the first case that we read for the entire, the entire class of uh for my entire class was actually about a heart hospital in India uh that was uh founded in Bangalore. 00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:27.120 They were actually able to perform more surgeries than the May Clinic and the Cleveland Clinic combined. 00:14:27.279 --> 00:14:37.679 And we're talking like complex heart surgeries like bypass for about$2,000, which is like orders of magnitude less than similarly equipped hospitals, even in India. 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:56.559 So they sort of thought of it as the the, I mean, I don't know if this is not the same direction necessarily, but the Walmartization of healthcare and that sometimes if you if you bring technology or maybe just really good business thinking that can disseminate medical care in a in a much more impactful way in a developing country where your dollar can stretch way farther. 00:14:56.639 --> 00:15:05.600 I mean, if you think about it from the utilitarian perspective, especially, like the same amount of effort and resources could, you know, potentially save thousands of lives if it's done in the right in the right way. 00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:08.080 And this is sort of that marriage of research and business, you know? 00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:09.360 No, absolutely. 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:11.679 I I I also read that case study. 00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:13.120 Yeah, yeah. 00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:13.840 David, Dr. 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:19.120 Devi Shati and and his Narayna but the LA is the is the which basically transformed. 00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:23.440 We're not looking at walmartization and in research that I wish we could. 00:15:23.679 --> 00:15:37.279 I don't think that that is but but I think that to your point, the core insight is still the same, which is that what that hospital was doing was that it understood what was the was needed by the patients in a particular job. 00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:45.919 Yeah, sort of created a whole activity system that could deliver against those bill those those patient needs at costs. 00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:49.600 And you know, obviously the costs are an important parameter, right? 00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:51.039 In a country like India, right? 00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:53.600 But without compromising on quality, right? 00:15:53.679 --> 00:16:02.799 So patient outcomes as that study you know clearly highlights, the patient outcomes are actually on par or sometimes even better than the rest of the world, right? 00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:27.120 So it's the same same concept here that you know, let's look at the patient unmet patient needs in in Indian South Asia primarily, and then understand what we might be doing differently to help me help address those patient needs, which includes costs, one of the parameters, in such a way that we can meet, we can address those patient needs and at the same time uh do it in a way that is equitable. 00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:30.320 No, it makes it it makes a ton of sense and it's very exciting work. 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:38.639 I'm kind of curious if there's a tie-in between your world as a procurement leader and the work that you're doing now for the National Cancer Institute. 00:16:38.799 --> 00:16:44.159 You know, what's the where there must be many relationships there, but I'm curious like where your prior life comes into play. 00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:58.320 I mean, uh my role as a as the chief procurement officer at Johnson ⁇ Johnson was to make sure that we understand what what the needs are at uh within JNG and then find capabilities externally that could help meet those not needs. 00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:01.519 And do it in a way that is that makes business sense, right? 00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:04.480 That makes it sustainable on an ongoing basis, right? 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:09.680 That that is the the core role of any buyer anywhere in the world. 00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:12.319 And it's to some extent similar here. 00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:21.519 Uh, I wouldn't say it's I I won't say this is the buyer's role, but but my role here is to establish a strategy that will help identify capabilities. 00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:35.440 Some we may build in-house, some we will bid, some we will sort of tie in with uh with with wherever that capability exists to meet the needs of the patients in in South, South Asia and India, and and some of those samples adjacent countries. 00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:37.279 So that is the that is the objective. 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:42.319 It's more of a business, quote unquote business role, because as I said, it's a not-for-profit, it's a sure, sure. 00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:46.559 But how do we do this in a sustainable way is an important question. 00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:49.759 And that's what we will be striving to achieve. 00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:52.720 What's the what's the key unlock on the business so far? 00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:57.200 If you can share, like I agree with you in India, the the economics are

really important. 00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:14.559 And sometimes when when folks are living on a pretty meager salary and there's not always the kind of resources to go around that folks, folks want, you know,$2,000 for heart surgery sounds cheap by American standards, but it's still far more than what an individual is capable of paying. 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:17.440 And so I'm kind of curious, how do you make the model sustainable? 00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:24.720 How do you get to a place, you know, where you where you're able to actually make things like the biorepository uh a solvable business? 00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:26.960 I think there are two aspects. 00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:34.960 One is quantitative in the sense that it's a bit unfortunate, but it is it is also a fact that you know we have lots of patients. 00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:39.039 Yeah, because we have lots of patients, we have lots of samples. 00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:39.519 Right. 00:18:40.000 --> 00:19:05.759 Lots of samples, and we if we collect them in the right way, if we store them in the right way, if we get all the consents, you know, with the highest possible standards, global standards, then it is something that we can do better than anyone else because we have it's very unfortunate that we have that inflow, but you know, it just creates a stream of different types of very diverse cancers that we could that we could easily you know deposit, right? 00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:11.920 So that's that's one I would call that the quantitative you know advantage uh sure that we have. 00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:14.720 The second is I think the strategic vision. 00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:31.119 I I think the the National Cancer Institute and and the the overall the trust that runs this organization is very committed to to research and to education and to patient services, all three legs of the you know, solving the cancer problem, right? 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:34.720 Those three are the are the uh all three have to be addressed. 00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:42.319 And the the strategic direction from the from the board and the government is has been very unwavering, right? 00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:57.039 That we have to do this and therefore willing to put resources because uh while I say that it is sustainable, we know that we'll have to invest quite a bit, okay, the first uh three to four years before you know we generate other other revenue streams to make it work. 00:19:57.359 --> 00:19:58.480 No, I think it makes sense. 00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:01.440 Well, I I really wish you the best of luck with your endeavor. 00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:09.519 And you know, more than anything, uh, if there's ways that I can be helpful, I mean, outside obviously this specific podcast, like I'm always happy to help. 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:18.079 At minimum, when you send me the donation link, know that there's gonna be a a check coming that is right size to a startup founder's salary. 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:29.440 But uh nonetheless, it would be my it would be my joy to support you in this effort because it's you know, I think there's often times where, you know, I mean, like, look, I had a business where we were trying to do something to make lives better in India. 00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:30.880 I care very much about it. 00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:35.039 And, you know, sometimes I think, okay, maybe we first let's first make the money and then I can use it. 00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:35.599 You know what I mean? 00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:36.960 Like maybe that's the right order. 00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:43.920 But basically, I think something that always surprised me was the metrics that try to equate between different diseases. 00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:50.640 And there's a metric that I love from the World Health Organization called dailies, disability disability adjusted life years. 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:58.079 And the interesting thing is that it's a mixture of how long an illness will impair your life, how severely will it impair it? 00:20:58.240 --> 00:21:06.720 And so things like cancer that are late onset, late in life, has actually a much lower dailies implication than if somebody gets it very early in life. 00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:12.960 And then there's certain illnesses like tooth decay, the one that I was really focused on, where it would happen even in childhood. 00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:16.640 And so it could affect a very long period of time in so many different ways. 00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:24.640 And there are now more and more links between oral infections and things like heart disease, which is like a shocking and poorly understood link. 00:21:24.799 --> 00:21:31.119 The only thing we know is that these things do go in pairs, you know, but not exactly the mechanisms for why, the pathways for why. 00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:34.559 Although I haven't followed the research in the last few years, so maybe this is dated. 00:21:34.640 --> 00:21:37.839 Like this is a procurement podcast, not a medical podcast. 00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:41.519 Although we we've not even we've not even mentioned the word procurement, you know. 00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:44.640 Yeah, you know, and that's and that's wonderful. 00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:48.079 You know, people people know about the seven step sourcing process. 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:50.000 I think they want to see what folks do with. 00:21:50.319 --> 00:21:55.759 I mean, because I think this is one of the things that I think people always think about in um in life and career, right? 00:21:55.839 --> 00:21:59.599 Which is like, okay, I mean, a lot of times I feel that people don't get started. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:04.640 In procurement by design, they sort of find their way there by accident. 00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:08.079 And then the question becomes, okay, I'm early in career procurement. 00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:09.759 Where does that path lead me? 00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:10.000 Right. 00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:21.440 And then it's like,

okay, well, if you do all the right stuff, eventually you can reach, I mean, you've reached the echelon of chief procurement officer of an iconic global 2000 business, Johnson ⁇ Johnson. 00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:25.119 And then the question is, okay, well, once you do that, what can you do with it? 00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:45.920 And so I think it's, it's very, it's a very, I don't want to say inspiring because that's so trite, but it is a very illuminating kind of trajectory that you've sort of and a path that I think you've carved for people that isn't an obvious one, which is, hey, you know, even once you've reached this like press career precipice within the industry, well, one, you can get there. 00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:58.480 And then two, is like, okay, can you have some kind of broader impact if you want to, you know, soothe your soul in a in a much broader way and and and give back to the people that uh weren't as lucky to have the opportunities that you had. 00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:00.079 And I I think it's just wonderful. 00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:00.880 And you know what? 00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:03.920 Like, there's two sides of commerce, there's buying and selling. 00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:11.599 And so, you know, if you can do one of those two things really, really well, then I think you could be extremely helpful, especially to a nonprofit organization, right? 00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:16.319 Like most of the time, what they have is researchers, what they don't have is business and operators. 00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:23.920 And they what they might not also have, and this is something that I'm sure you can help with too, is access to Western resources and Western connections, right? 00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:40.720 And so the fact that you can go, you know, spend uh, you know, a few months in Maharashtra and then come back to New Jersey and have, you know, all these institutions in in the and bring your credibility to really interface between these sort of these sort of continents is it's really powerful, you know. 00:23:40.880 --> 00:23:47.759 So I I just think it's I think it's just so I think it's wonderful on every single possible surface, you know, is the thing I will say. 00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:50.480 No, no, Spencer, actually, uh I I agree with you. 00:23:50.559 --> 00:24:03.200 But I think the only only plea place where I would say I would every time I hear someone say that it's giving back, I actually philosophically, of course it is, it is called giving back, and I totally understand, you know, from where where you come from. 00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:15.839 But in in my own mind, I don't think there's any giving back because what I realize is that I do, I mean, at least I can speak for myself, I do only those things where I get something out of it. 00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:24.400 Of course, I get more out of it, you know, call it, you know, there's a there's a lot of satisfaction and there is a lot of uh I want to do this, right? 00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:25.359 And I'm doing it. 00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:33.519 So that's so it so the the very fact that I'm working on something that that I that is very close to my heart gives me a lot of uh positive buzz. 00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:34.960 And that's the reason why I'm doing it. 00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:40.160 I mean, like like I sometimes wonder if someone tomorrow comes back and says that, okay, Shashi, let's do one thing. 00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:42.640 You don't work on it, someone else will work on it. 00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:44.559 Who will be more more sad? 00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:53.279 Whether they will be sad because I'm not contributing or because our I will be, I think I will be the sad person because I think I'm getting a lot out of this. 00:24:53.440 --> 00:25:00.160 That's the insight for me personally, is that you know, this is something there is a there is a self-interest in everything. 00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:05.839 If you're a good natured person and you get endorphins and joy from giving back, is that selfish? 00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:08.960 And I think that at that point it's the lines are very blurred. 00:25:09.039 --> 00:25:28.799 I think it's still I mean, you know, there's there's a few folks that I can think of that I now that we're talking about it, that I'd love to make the introduction to after the after we finish the call, you know, because I have uh relationships obviously with my my two alma maters, which are Harvard and and University of Pennsylvania, and they're both, you know, Penn Medicine and Harvard are are both big research institutions. 00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:34.160 So when the moment's right and and you want a warm introduction, I'm happy to to make the connection, David. 00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:35.119 There'll be something there. 00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:36.640 Absolutely, Spencer. 00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:41.119 I would really so going back to your your earlier comment on you know your offer of help. 00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:44.640 Of course, no, I'll take I'll take any amount of money that you give. 00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:46.160 That's not but that's not the main thing. 00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:53.279 I think I think your help would be would be far more useful in exactly these areas, like may helping make the connections, right? 00:25:53.519 --> 00:26:06.960 Because the way we progress forward is that there is a research advisory board, which would essentially consist of top-notch researchers from around the world, right, who are helping set agenda, right, for this research division. 00:26:07.279 --> 00:26:08.079 So that's one. 00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:13.920 So helping, you know, like for example, the the the introductions that you just talked about with Harvard, right? 00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:21.839 It could maybe if I can get one or two strong leaders who would be passionate about helping contributing their research uh acumen. 00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:23.039 These are top-notch researchers. 00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:24.880

But I think on the research advisory board, right? 00:26:24.960 --> 00:26:25.839 I mean, that would be great. 00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:30.319 Of course, the foundation advisory board, which is more around fundraising and all of that. 00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:34.559 So who people so folks who can who can help open doors, right? 00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:38.079 And and who can help uh all of that is the foundation advisory board. 00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:44.480 So again, there could be leaders who could be on that on that board, but I think it's the connections that are going to be very important. 00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:48.960 As you very well know, you know, because you did something like this many years back, right? 00:26:49.119 --> 00:26:52.079 And you know that those are the two big knowledge and money. 00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:54.240 I think those are the two that go hand in hand, right? 00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:56.079 And access, I mean, I think you're right. 00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:59.119 The access is really invaluable in any direction. 00:26:59.359 --> 00:27:05.920 Well, I guess I'm kind of curious if we take a step like way back, you know, we're we're talking, you know, 30 plus years at this point. 00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:17.680 You know, you were in Maharashtra in Pune as an as an engineer, uh building thermic fluid heaters, which I assume is like a gas-fired boiler. 00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:21.039 How did you go from the world of engineering to the world of procurement? 00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:22.799 How did you land a PNG? 00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:30.480 So I did my engineering, I'm an electrical engineer, and then I well, my first job was with uh was with this company called Thermax. 00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:36.240 So if you had a tie up with Dapcock, which is a which is a major boiler manufacturer around the world. 00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:41.039 Uh and boilers are essentially equipment that you use for heating, right? 00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:42.160 Heating, process heating. 00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:54.880 So if you have an industry, if you have a company that is doing anything, a manufacturing plant that is that needs heat, so typically that would be there would be a boiler that is generating steam, and then the steam is used to heat your process, right? 00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:58.160 So that's the now steam has certain limitations. 00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:06.640 One of them being that, you know, the temperature, if you need a temperature above a certain certain number, then you need to superheat the steam. 00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:08.960 It becomes a little bit more risky. 00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:13.920 Uh, you can, of course, you can still have superheated steam, which as you do in power plants and all of that. 00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:16.880 But then there's what is called as thermic fluid heater. 00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:25.359 So you so you heat the thermic fluid, you can go up to 300 degrees Celsius, 400 degrees Celsius, because the the fluid doesn't break down

at those temperatures. 00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:33.680 And then you and because it's you can then run that that high temperature fluid through the through the process to to to do the heating, right? 00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:36.079 So that's the that's the work that I used to do. 00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:41.680 The reason I I describe it is because engineering tends to be very, very focused, right? 00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:46.960 So in the sense you it's very important to specialize if you want to to grow in the world of engineering. 00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:53.039 I joined as uh because I did my electrical engineering, I joined in the in the world of instrumentation. 00:28:53.200 --> 00:29:03.359 So boiler is also a very complex piece of equipment which needs a lot of instrumentation, not just to run it, but also to protect the rest of the it can become quite risky if it's not managed well. 00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:09.359 So I was doing instrumentation, but very quickly, instrumentation for boilers is a very broad, broad field. 00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:20.079 Very quickly, it became instrumentation for process boilers, then it became oil and gas-spied process boilers, and then it became burners, just the burner part of it, right? 00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:25.759 So I was becoming super specialized, which is I think very much needed in the engineering world. 00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:40.960 But for me as an individual, I felt like I wouldn't want to be spending 30 years or 35 years of my career going deeper and deeper into instrumentation of the nozzle in a burner that fires NAFTA, right? 00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:43.279 And that's the only way you can get good at it. 00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:45.920 But I felt like that's too specialized for me. 00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:52.079 So that's where I was fortunate enough to be selected for a master's program in business administration. 00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:59.599 I still wanted to stay close to my engineering, so I did my industrial management from what is now the Ministry of Management in Mumbai. 00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:05.119 So that's that's how I I moved away from engineering into a broader management field. 00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:08.240 And then I joined Frocter and Gamble in the supply chain procurement. 00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:15.200 So basically in the buying for raw materials and packaging materials for some of the businesses for PNG in in Asia. 00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:18.880 From there, I actually, for four years, I was in marketing. 00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:23.359 I led the interesting yeah, for PNG India. 00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:30.640 Then in 2004, I moved to Moscow to set up the procurement organization for PNG for all of Eastern Europe. 00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:37.440 My uh territory at that time extended from Israel on one hand to Pakistan on the other end. 00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:39.440 I was based out of Moscow. 00:30:39.759 --> 00:30:41.200 Fascinating experience. 00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:46.000 I think all of those countries, we used to call them the CNN countries at that time. 00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:49.839 Reason was because they were always on CNN for the wrong reasons. 00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:51.839 So these countries. 00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:57.359 But but for Proctor Gamble, that was a very important, very strategic and a very fast-growing business. 00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:00.720 And it came in a strategic role in in that region. 00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:04.400 So we had to get the currencies right, the market up and down. 00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:09.039 So we had to make sure that our suppliers are as localized as possible. 00:31:09.279 --> 00:31:14.000 And then most importantly, we had to make sure that our talent is as local as possible. 00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:20.799 So I moved there very early in my in my life, but I think it was one of those really good decisions that I had made. 00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:24.240 And I was fortunate to be even selected for that for a role like that. 00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:27.039 I learned and I grew uh quite a bit. 00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:30.240 Uh the one four-year assignment or of Moscow. 00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:35.200 And then afterwards I moved to Cincinnati, which is the global quadrant for PNG in the global category though. 00:31:35.599 --> 00:31:35.839 Right. 00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:36.880 That's amazing. 00:31:37.119 --> 00:31:40.160 Cincinnati, by contrast, isn't is never on CNBC. 00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:43.119 So actually was like in in in Russia at that time. 00:31:43.200 --> 00:31:47.119 I've I've only visited once, but it was back in 2019. 00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:53.920 So way before the stuff with Ukraine, well, the most recent stuff, and then and then way after the the end of the Soviet Union. 00:31:54.079 --> 00:32:05.039 I'm kind of curious, like when you were at when you were at PMG, especially in those early days, you know, did you ever think, you know, as you thought about your career aspirations, you would end up as a chief procurement officer? 00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:06.319 Because that's a big job. 00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:10.400 It's a C-suite, I mean, it is a C-suite job at a Fortune 500 company. 00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:18.160 I mean, that's an amazing, you know, it's like the NBA, the funnel gets so narrow, you know, to get to that echelon is a lottery-winning opportunity. 00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:20.640 No, I I never, you know, Spencer. 00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:25.519 I mean, I don't think and and I remember, and and I said this to the to the person who I'm referring to. 00:32:25.599 --> 00:32:39.759 So when when this chief pretended officer for uh for PNG used to, you know, really now they would they would make a trip to Asia, they'd come to Singapore, or sometimes they would come to Bombay and I would host them, or I would go across to Singapore to meet. 00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:46.480 It was like going and meeting someone who I get to meet this person who's CPO of PNG and all of that. 00:32:46.720 -->

00:32:58.640 And I think I was very fortunate that that I interacted with some of these CPOs who were like who are really iconic and I really learned a lot from them and I looked up to them and and all of that. 00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:07.759 And so it was a little bit you know, very humbling in a way that you know that so when I became the CPO of J, like, you know, can I live up to those standards, right? 00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:10.960 Was the was the question, you know, in in my mind. 00:33:11.200 --> 00:33:12.640 And I think I was fortunate. 00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:22.079 I think some of these uh decisions that, you know, without complete, you know, complete it was not like a planned move that I would do these and then I would get to become the CPO of uh uh of J. 00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:23.680 There was no such plan. 00:33:23.839 --> 00:33:28.240 But the fact that I was continuously going out of my comfort zone, right? 00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:35.680 I mean, I was moving out of procurement into marketing, which is a very risky job at PNG because it's up or out in marketing, right? 00:33:35.759 --> 00:33:37.519 And and I had more training marketing. 00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:45.759 I was a supply chain person, going into market, competing with the best marketers in the world and doing well was a risky proposition. 00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:48.079 But I I at that time did not see it as a risk. 00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:51.759 I thought that it was the right, it was just I would I would have fun, so I just did it. 00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:52.160 Yeah. 00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:53.759 And then going to Moscow. 00:33:53.920 --> 00:34:02.799 I mean, now on hindsight, I it was it if it someone had offered a role like that to me now, I don't know if I would have the courage to accept it. 00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:08.880 But at that time I did it and I learned a lot through through through those uh through those moves. 00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:18.960 I guess all of that helped in accelerating my my career and helping me get to the the highest possible level in the function. 00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:34.000 But I I don't think I ever had a plan, but I'm fortunate that I had those opportunities and I had the the the I I could look up, I I worked with some of these CPOs who I really could look up to and say that I would I would want to be someone like them. 00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:34.719 Yeah. 00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:35.840 What do you feel? 00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:36.880 I mean, that's amazing. 00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:39.599 What do you feel like it takes to become a CPO? 00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:43.519 I mean, obviously there's some amount of opportunity, like luck that's involved. 00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:58.800 But if you were, you know, if you're talking to somebody who's early in their career, who's just starting out as a category manager or buyer, and they say, hey, look, I I'm doing this because I want to be at that sort of top echelon, like what does it take to get to one of those positions? 00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:05.440 I think the number one, the number one requirement and number one is is being very close to the business. 00:35:05.679 --> 00:35:09.280 I think understanding the business that you are part of. 00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:13.199 I won't even say you're supporting because you you are part of the business. 00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:22.559 Uh, you know, and as I mentioned in Eastern Europe, when I led the procurement organization, we could make or break that business big time. 00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:27.920 You know, if we could go out, if we all we had to do is get a couple of currencies wrong and we would mess up the whole business. 00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:33.679 And we get them right, we can actually put our business in a really, you know, we can crisis proof our business, right? 00:35:33.760 --> 00:35:35.679 So we are part of the business. 00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:38.639 So we need to understand the business really, really well. 00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:52.000 And I think when you are working in a in a team, the cross-functional team, if you as a procurement person knows the industries that you buy from really well, you also understand the business inside. 00:35:52.079 --> 00:36:09.360 And you can communicate, you can converse the way any other function can, like let's say a marketing person can, and you can speak to the consumer insights, you can speak to the business insights, and therefore make the connection to what is possible from the outside world, you become indispensable in that being. 00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:14.800 I think that is the that's the magic, right, that uh a good procurement person brings to the table. 00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:23.440 If I were to advise, and this is what I tell new procurement leaders, right, is that number one, get as close as possible to the business. 00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:28.800 And number two is of course, know your industries well, know your categories, know your strategies and all of that. 00:36:29.119 --> 00:36:32.320 I think there's the combination of the two that truly creates magic. 00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:33.280 No, it's amazing. 00:36:33.360 --> 00:36:35.360 And how how does somebody get close to the business? 00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:42.880 Because I think that sometimes, you know, depending on the organization, I think direct materials, you see a little bit less of this because you are really integrated. 00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:51.519 But in indirect, a lot of times folks will view procurement wrongly, in my opinion, as like an obstacle to just get to buy the thing they wanted to get anyway. 00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:56.719 So, how do you how do you get close to the business if you're coming into a new organization? 00:36:56.960 --> 00:37:03.280 I think even in indirect, you know, for example, in indirect comes in different different different categories, right? 00:37:03.360 --> 00:37:06.880 So, for example, if you're buying, if you're buying media, as an example, yeah.

00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:11.280 You are you are very, very, you know, embedded in the business. 00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:26.880 In fact, in fact, you would know most of what needs to happen and and you would want to make sure that you are proactively you know setting up everything that needs to be from an external perspective to support the the initiatives that are so critical uh to your your business. 00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:29.599 So media is an example, very deeply embedded. 00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:29.920 Right. 00:37:30.159 --> 00:37:33.920 RD is another indirect category in a pharma company. 00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:43.199 I don't know if actually, if you would if you were to say which is the most important, most embedded, most critical category for the business. 00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:49.599 They're all important as a CPR, I would say all categories are important, but I think RD is really, really you know critical. 00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:49.920 Right. 00:37:50.079 --> 00:37:54.000 Like you're the one who's managing the relationship with the with the big CRO. 00:37:54.239 --> 00:38:12.239 You're the one who's managing the relationship with some of those contract research organizations and C DMOs, and you're you're the so there is a lot that that rests on your understanding of what the pipeline is and the capabilities of these suppliers, you know, and how you can communicate that to a table. 00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:22.800 So so I think every every category is and let's take the example of the typical indirect categories like business services, like force and travel and all of that. 00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:33.440 A big part of any business, right, when it comes to their total PL, you would be surprised as to how big these were, they just add up. 00:38:33.599 --> 00:38:54.400 So if you have the ability to provide options to the business on a continuous basis where they can pull levers in these categories and help advance their PL or advance their opportunities that they see in the market, I think, I think you you there can be a there can be a significant value driver. 00:38:54.559 --> 00:38:59.599 You can become a very significant value driver, irrespective of which category you are uh your manager. 00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:03.760 How to answer the question of you know how do you get close? 00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:06.320 Right, oh easy answer to it. 00:39:06.400 --> 00:39:08.480 You have to just study the business. 00:39:08.559 --> 00:39:10.639 You have to become a very strong student. 00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:38.639 You have to you have to make an effort to make sure that when you go into a meeting, you re- you study the agenda in advance, you do your pre-work, yeah, and make connections, not just on process or procurement process, but also on the business side and relate the, you know, that's why articulation is important and relate the dynamics and the whatever is happening in the outside world to the pipeline discussion, to the financials discussion for the business. 00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:43.440 I think that if you're able to do it, you will be highly sought after. 00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:48.000 But that means you have to invest a lot of time in understanding the the business. 00:39:48.079 --> 00:39:53.679 You are invest as much time in understanding the business as you do in understanding the external industry. 00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:56.239 Thinking about the other side of the coin. 00:39:56.400 --> 00:40:07.199 So once you've you've become close to the business, you've embedded yourself really well, you become indispensable as a procurement leader, you get elevated to this position of chief procurement officer. 00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:09.840 Now you have a bigger purview on your plate. 00:40:10.079 --> 00:40:13.599 How I'm kind of curious, how are chief procurement officers measured? 00:40:13.760 --> 00:40:22.960 Like how do people determine who's been, you know, you mentioned there have been some iconic chief CPOs that you had sort of interacted with at a PNG. 00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:30.480 What makes a chief procurement officer a good, a great, or an iconic chief procurement officer? 00:40:30.639 --> 00:40:37.920 And are those measurements, are they consistent across different companies or are they really unique to the business when you meet with other CPOs? 00:40:38.239 --> 00:40:47.599 Yeah, I think uh when you when when a CPO is evaluated, you know, there are a few few broad categories that would be that would be common across, you know. 00:40:47.679 --> 00:40:55.199 So for example, as a CPO, it's not so much about, again, your ability to source something or run an RF that you don't do all that, right? 00:40:55.280 --> 00:40:57.280 So that's that's done by your organization. 00:40:57.599 --> 00:41:06.960 But I think your strength is in your ability to connect with the senior leadership, okay, in the organization and represent the function, okay, to those stakeholders. 00:41:07.119 --> 00:41:08.559 I think that's that's one. 00:41:08.800 --> 00:41:16.800 The second is your ability to build a strong organization that can rally, you know, uh for for the businesses that they're part of. 00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:17.039 Right. 00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:18.480 That's the that's the second. 00:41:18.800 --> 00:41:32.000 I I think there's a third aspect which is also becoming important now, actually for the last almost like 10, 15 years, is is having a very strong digital first mindset and modernizing the function. 00:41:32.239 --> 00:41:42.079 To your point, you know, procurement has unfortunately acquired this uh fuddy guddy, you know, image of, you know, we're the we're the process guys, we're the you know, we're the compliance guys. 00:41:42.239 --> 00:41:44.159 We yes, compliance is important. 00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:54.159 I'm not saying that that's not important, but I don't think it's I I think procurement needs to step out of this uh this role, that self-assumed role of being the cop, right?

00:41:54.320 --> 00:41:56.880 To being a an enabler, right? 00:41:56.960 --> 00:42:10.400 And therefore modernization of the function, bringing in the best of technology, you know, to drive speed, to drive value, I think that is a that's an important mindset that the CPO will need to bring to the table. 00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:11.840 So I think that those are the few. 00:42:11.920 --> 00:42:24.480 So the digital mindset, business orientation and capability, ability to build strong capability, these are the, I don't think it's a surprise, but those are the three big areas that any CPO would be would be measured on. 00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:30.559 Now, if you go double click on each one of those, there that's where the differences arise across sectors. 00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:33.840 For example, in the pharma industry, it's all about innovation. 00:42:33.920 --> 00:42:35.920 That's why I said RD is an important category. 00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:43.360 If you look at CPG, now of course I'm not saying innovation is not important there, it is important there, but but costs are extremely critical, right? 00:42:43.519 --> 00:42:47.599 I mean, these are um this is an industry that operates on razor-pin margins, right? 00:42:47.679 --> 00:42:50.480 So, and the sourcing from around the world and all of that. 00:42:50.639 --> 00:43:14.400 So in in the pharma world, by the way, supplier sustainability and in general, you know, sustainability and making sure that that resilience and all of that is is critical because the last thing that you want is a patient who's suffering from, who's going through a chemotherapy regime and has gone through three cycles and has to and cannot go through the full cycle because some disruption happened somewhere in the region. 00:43:14.800 --> 00:43:16.400 So resilience is important, right? 00:43:16.480 --> 00:43:18.000 So I think that's the now. 00:43:18.079 --> 00:43:29.840 If you go to a bank uh or a financial sector and you're a CPO for a bank or a CPO for a for a credit card company, then it's risk that is that is the primary parameter there, right? 00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:38.719 So how do you make sure that all the suppliers that you that you bring in, they're not adding any new risks to the um to the operation. 00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:41.920 So risk becomes paramount in that CPO role. 00:43:42.159 --> 00:43:49.039 So what I'm saying is that the the top three categories, digital orientation, the business orientation, and capability build is common. 00:43:49.199 --> 00:43:55.920 But then what you get measured on will primarily determine, be determined by which business you're in. 00:43:56.079 --> 00:44:00.960 I gave you examples of three pharma, CPG, and uh financial sectors. 00:44:01.360 --> 00:44:02.239 It's interesting. 00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:08.239 I guess um maybe one last question that I'll sort of ask, and I know we're coming up on time. 00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:11.920 What's what's something that you feel like I should have

asked you that I haven't? 00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:20.880 No, I think uh we we talked about my transition uh from uh from a CPO to to my now role. 00:44:21.039 --> 00:44:31.679 And I talked a lot because I think that's where our conversation went, and it was about about the work that I'm doing on the on cancer research with uh uh with this organization in India. 00:44:31.920 --> 00:44:33.840 That's 50% of my of my time. 00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:36.159 The remaining 50% is still on procurement. 00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:47.840 I want to talk about this this plural career because I think that's an important in my mind as I moved out of my CPO role, that is what I was thinking that I need to do. 00:44:48.000 --> 00:45:05.840 I don't want to take on another CPO role, but I want to, I'm not retiring, but I would want to have a career where I tend to grow, grow not just from a financial perspective, but also grow from just new areas that I can learn and have the ability to work on things that are very close to my heart, right? 00:45:05.920 --> 00:45:13.519 So, and then how can I do all of it together without compromising on without compromising on, let's say, the financials and all of that. 00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:24.400 So that's the strategy that I'm pursuing, what I would call as my plural career approach, where I I work with a number of um number of companies, as you, as you know, on in advisory capacity. 00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:30.800 I work with private equity firms, and then I also do the work that I'm doing with uh with the Cancer Institute. 00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:35.840 So all put together is my portfolio of work, and that's the plural career. 00:45:36.639 --> 00:45:39.039 I would want to move forward. 00:45:39.199 --> 00:45:44.400 It's it's a diversified source of of revenues, of financial for me. 00:45:44.559 --> 00:45:47.599 Also, it's a diversified source of growth opportunities for me. 00:45:47.679 --> 00:45:48.800 When I tend to grow, right? 00:45:56.480 --> 00:45:59.280 I'm not saying that this is the right thing for everyone. 00:45:59.440 --> 00:46:09.920 I think there's the right time for or but I think uh for for someone like like me, I felt like this was the right time to make the transition to a plural career. 00:46:10.239 --> 00:46:10.800 Amazing. 00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:12.559 And you're simply too young to retire. 00:46:12.719 --> 00:46:15.840 That's also part of the problem when you get early career success, you know. 00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:18.639 Well, Shashi, thank you so much for joining the podcast. 00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:22.400 As always, I truly, truly enjoy our conversations. 00:46:22.639 --> 00:46:32.559 I'm thrilled to be able to have one of them on the record that we can share with other people, especially about the wonderful work that you're doing uh at India and abroad in the United States. 00:46:32.719 --> 00:46:35.519 Um, so yeah, thank you so much for joining in. 00:46:35.920 --> 00:46:36.400 Thank you. 00:46:36.559 --> 00:46:38.079 Thanks, uh, Spencer.