Pełna transkrypcja odcinka A record-breaking pension minister shares his highs and lows

a dog and the dog was in the wrong place, right? 00:04:17.002 --> 00:04:19.582 And now it's changed though. 00:04:19.582 --> 00:04:26.542 As multi-employer comes to the fore, there are a lot of multi-employers and single employers who are now looking at this. 00:04:26.722 --> 00:04:30.462 Now, it's a long way to go, don't get me wrong. 00:04:30.462 --> 00:04:38.522 And if we're talking up to 2030, then that's the sort of timeframe I think is realistic for CDC to possibly come into existence. 00:04:38.522 --> 00:04:46.282 But genuinely having an alternative third way to DC and DB is, in my view, a good thing. 00:04:46.282 --> 00:04:51.382 And for some employers, particularly, I think union backed employers, I think it's a really, really good thing. 00:04:51.382 --> 00:04:54.162 And I've seen and lived through the Royal Mail experience. 00:04:54.162 --> 00:04:55.102 It's a fantastic deal. 00:04:55.562 --> 00:04:55.902 Yeah. 00:04:55.902 --> 00:04:57.542 Okay. 00:04:57.542 --> 00:04:58.742 Yeah. 00:04:58.742 --> 00:04:58.882 Yeah. 00:04:59.382 --> 00:05:02.142 There's definitely a lot of talk about it. 00:05:03.602 --> 00:05:08.442 There's a lot of talk about different figures, about how much extra income you get and all that kind of stuff. 00:05:08.442 --> 00:05:10.222 I don't know if that clouds the water a little bit. 00:05:10.222 --> 00:05:11.122 I think it does a bit. 00:05:11.122 --> 00:05:14.682 And I think to say, oh, you're going to get 60% more, 50% more. 00:05:14.682 --> 00:05:16.882 That's a stupid way of doing it, in my humble opinion. 00:05:17.182 --> 00:05:21.242 I get how departments like to spin stuff. 00:05:21.242 --> 00:05:23.182 I'm not so naïve as to not understand that. 00:05:23.862 --> 00:05:31.402 But it's a wrong way to say, you're going to guarantee better situation, because that's just not the nature of the beast. 00:05:31.402 --> 00:05:36.942 What I do think is, you will get a better situation than a pure DC, if it's properly run, basically. 00:05:36.942 --> 00:05:44.682 Now, but obviously, there's a lot of ifs and buts that go as part of a CDC, and you've got to be a different, it's a different beast, basically. 00:05:44.682 --> 00:05:45.602 Yeah. 00:05:45.602 --> 00:05:45.842 Yeah. 00:05:45.842 --> 00:05:46.242 So cool. 00:05:46.242 --> 00:05:50.302 So by 2030, I think we might have a better feel for what's available. 00:05:50.302 --> 00:05:52.582 You'll have a lot more CDCs in that space. 00:05:52.702 --> 00:05:58.542 And if you don't, the answer is, it has not then progressed and various employers have looked at it and said, no, thank you. 00:05:58.542 --> 00:05:59.262 Yeah. 00:06:00.442 --> 00:06:02.982 Expanding auto enrolment. 00:06:02.982 --> 00:06:04.142 It's not going to happen now, hurry. 00:06:04.362 --> 00:06:06.022 I welcome the pension commission. 00:06:06.022 --> 00:06:07.582 The problem is always Treasury. 00:06:07.582 --> 00:06:18.622 And the problem is Treasury will struggle to authorise greater burdens

on employers leading up to a general election or post a general election. 00:06:18.622 --> 00:06:24.282 And given the whatever your views on politics, and I'm out of politics now, I stress. 00:06:24.282 --> 00:06:28.062 And I think the Labour government had done a good job in the world of pensions, by and large. 00:06:28.062 --> 00:06:36.502 But the difficulty is by raising NI, by doing the Employment Rights Act, they have put a lot more burdens and other taxes on to employers. 00:06:36.502 --> 00:06:40.642 And if you want growth, you try not to put more burdens on employers. 00:06:40.642 --> 00:06:44.602 And that is an issue, which means and I've got I've had the scars. 00:06:44.602 --> 00:06:46.622 So let's criticise my government. 00:06:46.622 --> 00:06:51.022 You know, the 2017 auto enrolment review came out in 2017. 00:06:51.342 --> 00:06:55.022 It was the first thing that landed on my desk when I became minister. 00:06:55.022 --> 00:06:57.442 And it still isn't in practice. 00:06:57.442 --> 00:07:00.502 And in fact, I don't see this government bringing it in at all. 00:07:00.502 --> 00:07:08.922 So that is a good example of a positive change to auto enrolment agreed on a cross party basis that no one's implemented. 00:07:08.922 --> 00:07:11.822 And then the private members bill was much later than that, wasn't it? 00:07:11.822 --> 00:07:15.222 I literally had to draft the private members bill myself. 00:07:15.222 --> 00:07:18.462 And obviously, I completely support everything my government does. 00:07:18.622 --> 00:07:31.442 But at the same stage, I was working behind the scenes to ensure the private members bill came into existence and was in long negotiations with Rishi, who's a friend of mine, and said, look, you have to do this without a shadow of a doubt. 00:07:31.442 --> 00:07:33.062 And finally, we got it over the line. 00:07:33.062 --> 00:07:33.722 Right. 00:07:33.722 --> 00:07:35.582 But it's not happened. 00:07:35.582 --> 00:07:36.482 You've got to implement it. 00:07:36.502 --> 00:07:40.502 So basically, that requires treasury to implement a statutory change. 00:07:40.502 --> 00:07:42.922 So it's to bring in younger people, reduce the- 00:07:42.922 --> 00:07:44.642 Go to the first pound. 00:07:44.702 --> 00:07:45.842 It would help younger people. 00:07:45.842 --> 00:07:46.562 It would help women. 00:07:46.562 --> 00:07:47.942 It would help red wall. 00:07:47.942 --> 00:07:49.582 It would help disadvantaged areas. 00:07:49.582 --> 00:07:53.262 It's a fantastically good thing, but it is a bigger burden on business. 00:07:53.262 --> 00:07:55.242 And treasury keep blocking that. 00:07:55.242 --> 00:08:00.162 And it doesn't matter which political persuasion is in government, treasury block stuff. 00:08:00.162 --> 00:08:01.782 Okay. 00:08:01.782 --> 00:08:04.502 What about toughening up on pension scams? 00:08:04.502 --> 00:08:06.022 I think we've done a pretty good job. 00:08:06.022 --> 00:08:12.362 Many would argue we've gone too far

in some respects because things like transfers are really, really hard at the moment and they want to try and make that easier. 00:08:13.722 --> 00:08:16.722 I'm pleased with the way we've made progress. 00:08:16.722 --> 00:08:20.562 There is always more to be done on pension scams because scammers constantly evolve. 00:08:20.562 --> 00:08:21.342 Sure. 00:08:21.342 --> 00:08:26.462 And I wonder at times if the whole thing about it's really hard to do transfers is overdone. 00:08:26.462 --> 00:08:32.582 So I just looked at a publication today, you know, for Scottish Widows transfer out average time is 9.2 days. 00:08:32.582 --> 00:08:33.862 So that's pretty good. 00:08:33.862 --> 00:08:41.542 As far as I'm concerned is if you said to somebody, look, in two weeks time, you can get your pension out of X into Y, everyone will go, fine. 00:08:41.542 --> 00:08:43.302 I mean, unless there is a... 00:08:43.582 --> 00:08:46.142 If it's a or a go standard stuff, then it works well. 00:08:46.142 --> 00:08:49.422 And the vast bulk of it is or a go standard stuff. 00:08:49.422 --> 00:08:50.202 So indeed. 00:08:50.202 --> 00:08:50.882 Yeah. 00:08:50.882 --> 00:08:52.742 Cool. 00:08:52.742 --> 00:08:57.802 Something that was specifically on your agenda was championing financial inclusion. 00:08:57.802 --> 00:09:02.222 So rather than just being the pension minister, you're also minister for financial inclusion as well. 00:09:02.222 --> 00:09:04.942 So I love that element of the role. 00:09:04.942 --> 00:09:10.282 So I used to say I do my day job is pensions, but my night job was financial inclusion. 00:09:10.282 --> 00:09:31.742 And I loved trying to create products and capability for the masses to enjoy the financial services that we all take for granted, whether that is insurance, whether that is access to private savings, whether that is ability on credit and things like that, whether that is on credit unions and community banks, one of which I set up in Northumberland. 00:09:31.742 --> 00:09:36.722 It is a difficulty because I'm the only minister who ever done that job. 00:09:37.102 --> 00:09:39.642 There is no financial inclusion minister anymore. 00:09:39.642 --> 00:09:51.502 However, to be at their credit, the Labour government have done something that I wanted to do, and which I couldn't get through with government, which was they have said that they're going to include in primary education, financial education. 00:09:51.502 --> 00:10:02.422 Now, we managed to get into secondary, but I loved and adored projects like the Lifesavers Project that we did with Virgin Money and with the Church of England, which is putting banks in schools. 00:10:02.482 --> 00:10:16.462 Amazing, positive change, whereby you get kids on a Friday running a bank in the school, then they would go home to mum and dad, particularly in the deprived areas where we set up the banks and say, mum and daddy, do you have a savings account? 00:10:16.462 --> 00:10:19.802 Because I'm saving for Christmas, I'm saving for a rainy day. 00:10:19.802 --> 00:10:26.802 And the positive change in some of the estates where I went to see, where then the mum and dad would then get signed up for a bank account. 00:10:26.802 --> 00:10:27.782 Just amazing. 00:10:27.822 --> 00:10:28.642 Yeah. 00:10:28.642 --> 00:10:29.122 And you know what? 00:10:29.122 --> 00:10:32.182 We used to have that in Scotland in the 70s, Scottish Savings Bank. 00:10:32.182 --> 00:10:36.802 So I used to go to school with five pence and that would get put into my bank account. 00:10:36.802 --> 00:10:42.862 It remains a crime in this country that we have 11 million people who don't have a hundred pounds saved. 00:10:42.862 --> 00:10:44.682 We're a first world country. 00:10:44.682 --> 00:10:55.222 And the things that most cause you to go into bankruptcy, difficulty or disaster are your car breaking down or your washing machine breaking down because you don't have the money for the fiscal shocks that hit you. 00:10:55.222 --> 00:10:57.082 And we're not a nation of savers. 00:10:57.202 --> 00:10:58.742 That is a practical reality. 00:10:58.742 --> 00:11:00.042 We need to change that. 00:11:00.042 --> 00:11:00.862 Okay. 00:11:00.862 --> 00:11:10.182 So beyond these things that we've just discussed there, any standout moments from your time in office, things that you look back fondly on that maybe didn't make the main headlines? 00:11:10.182 --> 00:11:11.942 Trying to get super funds over the line. 00:11:11.942 --> 00:11:12.802 I love those. 00:11:12.802 --> 00:11:14.042 I think they're fantastic. 00:11:14.042 --> 00:11:16.682 And obviously this government is now taking those forward. 00:11:16.682 --> 00:11:18.462 What's your definition of super funds? 00:11:18.462 --> 00:11:20.422 It's a DB consolidator. 00:11:20.422 --> 00:11:24.362 And without a shadow of a doubt, we need them and it breaks up an insurance cartel. 00:11:25.182 --> 00:11:30.922 At the moment, the only place a DB fund can go is down the route towards an insurer. 00:11:30.922 --> 00:11:32.762 It's going to be amazing when you break that up. 00:11:32.762 --> 00:11:34.282 It's going to really improve the economy. 00:11:34.282 --> 00:11:38.902 It's going to help a whole bunch of companies and get members better outcomes. 00:11:38.902 --> 00:11:40.462 So I'm a massive fan of that. 00:11:40.642 --> 00:11:43.142 It took me ages to try and get it over the line. 00:11:43.462 --> 00:11:46.442 We're getting it into the secondary legislation at the present stage. 00:11:46.442 --> 00:11:49.142 Why will it make these changes? 00:11:49.142 --> 00:11:55.442 Because at the moment, if I want to go to a DB buyout, I have to pay 110 percent, right? 00:11:55.442 --> 00:11:59.262 So I've got to be fully funded, and I've got to give the insurers 10 percent. 00:11:59.402 --> 00:12:01.582 And that's just the premium basically. 00:12:01.582 --> 00:12:07.262 A super fund will be allowed to do things at about 105 to 106 percent, okay?

00:12:07.262 --> 00:12:25.222 Which means if you're a company who is heading to a effectively buyout or you want to go get out of your DB, of which there's about 300 and there's a pipeline of about 400, 500 billion pounds worth heading down this route, then you're in a position you've got an alternative for the first time. 00:12:25.222 --> 00:12:29.962 And that can improve outcomes for members, because insurers pretty much only invest in guilds and bonds. 00:12:29.962 --> 00:12:40.982 Secondly, you'll be in a position that the company, the corporate, will suddenly not be giving away 10 percent of its insurance DB for no benefit whatsoever. 00:12:40.982 --> 00:12:45.502 So they will then be able to reinvest in the business or really promote things in the business in a different way. 00:12:45.502 --> 00:12:53.462 It's a very important change, a massive impact upon the UK economy, and it will free up cash in a way that is not presently expected. 00:12:53.462 --> 00:12:58.662 So if you're a CFO of a business heading to a buyout, you're thinking, why on earth would I do this? 00:12:58.662 --> 00:13:02.122 I can get out and do much better, and I can then invest money in the business. 00:13:02.122 --> 00:13:09.302 I can actually grow this business, grow the UK economy, and to be fair to the Labour government, they've really seen that as a positive driver of growth. 00:13:09.302 --> 00:13:09.802 Okay, cool. 00:13:09.802 --> 00:13:15.182 I haven't seen too much talk about that in the press, so it seems to happen in maybe actual world. 00:13:15.902 --> 00:13:21.782 It's going to, 2026 to 2027, you will see significant change in this space. 00:13:21.782 --> 00:13:23.722 So that's the DB space. 00:13:23.722 --> 00:13:26.862 The things I'm also pleased about would be the consolidation. 00:13:26.862 --> 00:13:32.802 When I started, we had 87 master trusts, we're now down to what, 32, 33. 00:13:32.802 --> 00:13:37.442 LGPS were 85, they're down to six now. 00:13:37.442 --> 00:13:40.082 DB is obviously consolidating. 00:13:40.082 --> 00:13:47.502 I think with consolidation, you get better outcomes for members longer term, you run things better, you can get better rates. 00:13:47.502 --> 00:13:51.942 That's the natural progression in my view and driving that forward, I think is a good thing. 00:13:51.942 --> 00:13:56.462 I wish I'd done more on things like simpler statements and the orange letter. 00:13:56.462 --> 00:13:58.702 I wish I'd been able to really drive those things forward. 00:13:58.702 --> 00:14:03.222 Simpler statements worked for a bit, but then the machine took over and they sort of died to death. 00:14:03.222 --> 00:14:03.702 Right. 00:14:03.702 --> 00:14:12.062 Well, we'll maybe come on to that in just a minute then, because one of the things behind the headlines I'll always remember is you're coming out with me to meet a couple of employer clients. 00:14:12.642 --> 00:14:17.642 Once on a retirement vehicle, where I got one of my colleagues to give you a pension education session. 00:14:17.862 --> 00:14:29.242 I was petrified, but you were in there with the rest of the employees, listening and learning and finding out about pensions. 00:14:29.242 --> 00:14:41.502 And the second time was going out to meet Ian and Roy at Jagger Land Rover, to find out what it's actually like to run a DB and DC pension scheme, and what the effect of all these regulations were on people running schemes. 00:14:42.422 --> 00:14:44.962 And how time got allocated in businesses. 00:14:44.962 --> 00:14:46.842 So a couple of really fascinating meetings. 00:14:46.842 --> 00:14:47.942 Do you remember them? 00:14:47.942 --> 00:14:48.402 I do. 00:14:48.402 --> 00:14:50.242 And I mean, I remember those ones well. 00:14:50.242 --> 00:14:52.942 I remember going to see Jagger Land Rover. 00:14:52.942 --> 00:14:58.062 I remember the lovely young man that you had basically interviewing and educating me. 00:14:58.062 --> 00:15:00.822 I thought he did a great job, so I hope he's still with the business. 00:15:01.622 --> 00:15:03.902 He's moved on to bigger and better things. 00:15:03.902 --> 00:15:16.442 But the simple point is, I love what you and Scottish Widows have done to really change engagement and there's a massive hat tip to your good self. 00:15:16.442 --> 00:15:22.542 So we're in London Bridge filming Overlooking the Globe and City of London. 00:15:22.542 --> 00:15:31.802 And literally about 400 yards away is the Arches, where we filmed an amazing campaign at about 10 o'clock at night. 00:15:31.802 --> 00:15:35.042 And I had to say to my wife, I'm not having an affair. 00:15:35.082 --> 00:15:39.102 I'm genuinely going off at night time on, I think it was a Saturday night or something as well. 00:15:39.602 --> 00:15:40.362 Or a Sunday night. 00:15:40.362 --> 00:15:41.302 I think it might be a Sunday night. 00:15:41.302 --> 00:15:44.102 You'd been at Pilgrim's Pizzas. 00:15:44.102 --> 00:15:52.062 Just genuinely to then project stuff onto the wall about the pension, pay your pensioners some attention, all the other campaigns that we were running at the time. 00:15:52.062 --> 00:16:03.042 And I genuinely think you guys have done more for pension awareness in the wider sense of the world in a really innovative and left field way than any other firm. 00:16:03.222 --> 00:16:05.542 And great credit to you, seriously. 00:16:05.542 --> 00:16:05.982 Oh, great. 00:16:05.982 --> 00:16:08.622 And it was really fab having your support. 00:16:08.622 --> 00:16:09.842 But also we did the bus together. 00:16:09.842 --> 00:16:11.182 We did the bus. 00:16:11.262 --> 00:16:12.222 I can't remember where. 00:16:12.222 --> 00:16:14.522 Somewhere in North London, I met you. 00:16:14.522 --> 00:16:16.522 I want to say like Watford Way, something like that. 00:16:16.522 --> 00:16:22.622 It was a film utility warehouse we went to. 00:16:22.622 --> 00:16:30.122 Going to meet local businesses and just trying to educate them, enlighten them and

doing things in a different way. 00:16:31.122 --> 00:16:39.962 I did feel slightly like I was part of some aging rock band on a bus driving up and going, hello Watford, it's good to be back. 00:16:39.962 --> 00:16:42.042 We are the aging pension gang. 00:16:42.042 --> 00:16:47.222 Now we're going to enlighten you and take you on places and imagine yourself in ten years time. 00:16:47.222 --> 00:16:49.702 We've got loads of Gen Z people now, so it's fine. 00:16:50.862 --> 00:16:51.962 We're just in the background. 00:16:51.962 --> 00:16:56.042 I should stress, I'm in a suit and Robert is dressed in very trendy outfit. 00:16:56.042 --> 00:16:57.282 He really is. 00:16:57.282 --> 00:17:00.462 That belies his years is my polite definition. 00:17:00.462 --> 00:17:03.982 We'll get a photo at the end and people can make their own minds up. 00:17:03.982 --> 00:17:05.342 So, so brilliant. 00:17:05.462 --> 00:17:07.302 And that was some of the highlights. 00:17:07.302 --> 00:17:12.362 But what about the final days, the end of days, the resignations, the chaos? 00:17:12.362 --> 00:17:15.942 It was absolutely mad. 00:17:15.942 --> 00:17:17.842 Give me two minutes and I'll try and tell the story. 00:17:18.002 --> 00:17:22.742 Because, so I had done the job for five years. 00:17:22.742 --> 00:17:28.842 I'd been to see Boris over the summer and had said to him, look, you have to change. 00:17:28.842 --> 00:17:30.602 He refused to change, obviously. 00:17:30.602 --> 00:17:32.582 And he said, I can't apologize, can't explain. 00:17:32.582 --> 00:17:33.602 I just don't do that. 00:17:33.602 --> 00:17:36.082 And if I do that, I'll be crucified. 00:17:36.082 --> 00:17:38.602 And I was thinking long and hard about my role. 00:17:38.602 --> 00:17:44.262 And it's a big deal to turn around to an elected Prime Minister and say, I'm sorry, I can't serve in your government. 00:17:45.202 --> 00:17:50.602 But I went to see him and I told him my concerns, and then ultimately I resigned. 00:17:52.842 --> 00:17:54.822 And I understood the consequences of that. 00:17:54.822 --> 00:17:56.622 You know, that's a very serious thing. 00:17:56.622 --> 00:17:59.762 So you see when you say went to see him, where do you go and see him? 00:17:59.762 --> 00:18:02.422 You normally go and see him in his room in the House of Commons. 00:18:02.422 --> 00:18:06.142 The Prime Minister has a room sort of just behind the Speaker's chair. 00:18:06.142 --> 00:18:07.122 There's some rooms. 00:18:07.122 --> 00:18:11.322 Prime Minister and the Chancellor and a few others have rooms there that they do meetings in. 00:18:12.042 --> 00:18:16.802 And I've met many Prime Ministers in those rooms on many occasions. 00:18:17.262 --> 00:18:19.962 It's behind the four Prime Ministers I served for. 00:18:19.962 --> 00:18:21.602 Obviously didn't serve Liz Strass. 00:18:21.602 --> 00:18:22.882 She fired me. 00:18:22.882 --> 00:18:24.042 Forty-two days sabbatical. 00:18:24.042 --> 00:18:29.782 I kindly enjoyed, courtesy of her spending a lot of time with my young children in Northumberland. 00:18:29.782 --> 00:18:31.902 So getting back to Boris. 00:18:31.902 --> 00:18:34.102 So sadly, I resigned. 00:18:34.102 --> 00:18:42.842 I went home to Northumberland and I remember going to my local pub in my village, having a pint and sitting out looking over Northumberland and then the phone goes. 00:18:42.842 --> 00:18:44.082 It's Friday night. 00:18:44.082 --> 00:18:47.022 I don't even resigned like 24 hours. 00:18:47.022 --> 00:18:56.922 And it's the chief whip who's a mate of mine, Chris Heaton Harris, going, I know you resigned, but we have a bill on Monday, on pensions and no one else knows anything about it. 00:18:56.922 --> 00:18:59.022 Would you come back and sort it out? 00:18:59.022 --> 00:19:02.242 Because by this stage, Boris had actually resigned himself. 00:19:02.242 --> 00:19:06.182 Would you come back and sort out this bill and also hold the fort for six weeks? 00:19:06.742 --> 00:19:17.742 So I was one of, I think, only two ministers who returned having resigned, held the brief for another six and a half, seven weeks, whilst the leadership election went on. 00:19:17.742 --> 00:19:25.242 Liz then fired me and then obviously Rishi took over and invited me back in. 00:19:25.242 --> 00:19:30.482 And I then, I thought long and hard, do I go back in after for Rishi? 00:19:30.482 --> 00:19:38.402 And it was obviously post COVID and he asked me to do a job of trying to get the country back to work after COVID. 00:19:38.402 --> 00:19:41.922 And kind of when a prime minister asks you to do that, you don't really turn it down. 00:19:41.922 --> 00:19:47.702 However much you realize this is a heavy lifting gig that is not easy. 00:19:47.702 --> 00:19:59.182 And also, I was really conscious that we were facing, because of Ukraine War, because of COVID, massive debt, massive inflation, really tough times. 00:19:59.182 --> 00:20:07.422 And there's a great line from Edmund Burke, which I believe in totally, which is the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men and women to do nothing. 00:20:07.422 --> 00:20:08.782 So stick your hand up. 00:20:08.782 --> 00:20:12.482 If your country asks you to serve, don't go, do you know, it's a bit inconvenient. 00:20:12.482 --> 00:20:14.042 I've got young Hamley. 00:20:14.042 --> 00:20:17.062 I'm trying to keep a seat in Northumberland. 00:20:17.062 --> 00:20:19.222 Just go, yes, fine, I will sort it out. 00:20:19.222 --> 00:20:22.282 And if your prime minister asks you to serve, you don't say no, in my view. 00:20:22.282 --> 00:20:24.422 Okay, brilliant. 00:20:24.422 --> 00:20:29.262 And I guess the crucial question, do you still do the Boris Johnson thumbs up? 00:20:29.362 --> 00:20:32.142 Remember, we always had to do the double thumbs up. 00:20:32.462 --> 00:20:34.022 I'm not sure, I'm not sure I do. 00:20:34.022 --> 00:20:36.442 I'm in a different world, a different life. 00:20:36.442 --> 00:20:40.262 I'm

enjoying, so I'm a, as you know, I'm a policy geek. 00:20:40.262 --> 00:20:46.522 I'm really interested in policy and how I can improve situations by policy changes. 00:20:46.522 --> 00:20:57.562 So I'm spending a lot of time helping corporates and in some cases countries, improve their retirement experience and in some cases, start from scratch, frankly. 00:20:57.562 --> 00:21:02.462 And I really am enjoying that phase of my life. 00:21:02.462 --> 00:21:14.402 I also am not working as hard as I was because if you're a minister, particularly a minister with a rural constituency 306 miles away, you are, you're doing 60 hour weeks. 00:21:14.402 --> 00:21:17.882 You know, I look at pictures of me at the end of the 2024 election. 00:21:17.882 --> 00:21:25.282 I was tired and puffy and overweight, frankly, and just, you know, really, really ground down. 00:21:25.282 --> 00:21:26.902 It's a very full on job. 00:21:26.902 --> 00:21:30.122 I'm working very hard now, but it's just a very different pressure. 00:21:30.122 --> 00:21:31.242 I have my weekends clear. 00:21:31.242 --> 00:21:36.062 And amazingly, my Twitter feed is really quite nice rather than as mad as it was. 00:21:36.062 --> 00:21:36.662 Yeah. 00:21:36.662 --> 00:21:41.822 OK, so we're kind of nicely eased into into what you're doing now. 00:21:41.822 --> 00:21:47.682 But I think we'll just have a quick pause and say, you know, it must have been great for you to have a bit more time with your family. 00:21:47.682 --> 00:21:49.662 So you've got a really young family. 00:21:51.102 --> 00:21:55.042 Tell us a little bit about how it felt to ease out of... 00:21:55.042 --> 00:22:00.122 I mean, I guess it's kind of awkward because you suddenly lose your job, right? 00:22:00.322 --> 00:22:03.302 It's a very robust and brutal process. 00:22:03.302 --> 00:22:11.422 One minute you are an elected member of parliament, you lose the election, you are given a three months severance package, which is three months salary, basically. 00:22:11.422 --> 00:22:12.402 That's it. 00:22:12.402 --> 00:22:13.542 And you're out. 00:22:13.542 --> 00:22:16.382 And you have to make all your staff redundant. 00:22:16.922 --> 00:22:18.562 I had to clear my office in parliament. 00:22:18.742 --> 00:22:20.722 I had to clear my ministerial office. 00:22:20.722 --> 00:22:23.862 I had to clear my constituency office. 00:22:23.862 --> 00:22:26.262 Ridiculous stuff like getting rid of all of the equipment. 00:22:26.262 --> 00:22:27.362 You do it all yourself. 00:22:27.362 --> 00:22:28.262 You run a small business. 00:22:28.262 --> 00:22:29.022 There's no help. 00:22:29.342 --> 00:22:31.062 There's no help whatsoever. 00:22:31.062 --> 00:22:39.582 So literally you spend a month making people redundant, doing all those things, getting rid of offices, ending leases, cleaning offices. 00:22:39.822 --> 00:22:42.562 It's a very weird and wonderful thing. 00:22:42.862 --> 00:22:46.182 The plus side was, baby Marina, as you know, I'm only 26. 00:22:46.722 --> 00:22:49.522 So I'm lucky enough that... 00:22:49.522 --> 00:22:52.802 So Flora and I met very late and then we couldn't have children. 00:22:52.802 --> 00:22:58.362 And through the miracle of IVF, we eventually managed to have children after about a 10 year journey. 00:22:58.362 --> 00:23:01.262 And so Kit, my eldest boy, is nearly four. 00:23:01.262 --> 00:23:07.942 And then we decided shortly before the general election in 24, we said, okay, should we try one more time? 00:23:07.942 --> 00:23:09.802 Because we'd had a lot of failures. 00:23:10.962 --> 00:23:14.082 And I said, look, she's about to lose her job. 00:23:15.242 --> 00:23:18.042 I was probably going to lose my job. 00:23:18.042 --> 00:23:18.962 I'm not wealthy. 00:23:18.962 --> 00:23:20.662 I've done 15 years of public service. 00:23:20.662 --> 00:23:25.822 And contrary to everyone's belief that politicians do it for the money, that isn't what you do it for. 00:23:25.822 --> 00:23:28.022 And so we then said, yes, we will. 00:23:28.022 --> 00:23:30.942 And baby Marina popped out a month after the general election. 00:23:30.942 --> 00:23:38.122 And that was an amazing thing, actually, and a very special way of easing your way into a new life. 00:23:38.122 --> 00:23:42.842 And I've been lucky enough to pick up a couple of jobs as advisors to various people. 00:23:43.162 --> 00:23:46.602 I'm doing some really interesting international work in the Middle East. 00:23:46.602 --> 00:23:56.782 And that is fascinating, helping some Middle East countries who are a bit complicated at the moment, try and find their way into retirement systems that are modern. 00:23:56.782 --> 00:23:59.182 And it's been a joy, frankly. 00:23:59.182 --> 00:24:06.102 I'm not quite sure what the future holds, but at the moment, I'm trying very hard to be a really good parent to two small children. 00:24:06.102 --> 00:24:10.782 I got them both up this morning, delivered them both to nursery and have... 00:24:10.802 --> 00:24:11.622 Impressive. 00:24:11.622 --> 00:24:12.842 You're here in London. 00:24:12.842 --> 00:24:18.882 And I'm then, yeah, it's a long story, but I genuinely have done really good stuff. 00:24:18.882 --> 00:24:20.582 It's really interesting. 00:24:20.582 --> 00:24:21.122 Brilliant. 00:24:21.122 --> 00:24:25.002 So I've spotted you popping up all over the world in LinkedIn. 00:24:25.002 --> 00:24:30.662 You've mentioned the Middle East, you've been in Australia, Ireland, you were in Cape Town last week. 00:24:30.662 --> 00:24:38.122 What is your view when you're looking back at the UK pension system from all those other different models? 00:24:38.122 --> 00:24:41.082 So I think we're hard on ourselves. 00:24:41.082 --> 00:24:44.862 You and I go to lots of conferences and everyone's a bit sort of glass half full. 00:24:44.862 --> 00:24:45.102 Yeah. 00:24:45.582 --> 00:24:46.402 Half empty. 00:24:46.402 --> 00:24:46.782 Yeah. 00:24:46.782 --> 00:24:48.642 Well, half empty,

frankly. 00:24:50.102 --> 00:24:53.142 Half empty, I should have said rather, or totally empty. 00:24:53.142 --> 00:24:56.402 So we do certain things really well. 00:24:56.402 --> 00:24:59.102 We have an evolving DB with a good pathway. 00:24:59.102 --> 00:25:01.962 The LGPS needs work, but it's doing okay. 00:25:02.502 --> 00:25:06.702 And in DC, we should be really proud of the DC Master Trust world we created. 00:25:06.702 --> 00:25:08.562 You know, it is a success story. 00:25:08.562 --> 00:25:15.082 We have a stroppy 13-year-old is the best description I can give it, because it's created in 2012. 00:25:15.082 --> 00:25:17.262 It's 13 and a half years of age. 00:25:17.262 --> 00:25:19.242 It's not fully formed, right? 00:25:19.242 --> 00:25:26.522 But if you look at the Australians created in 1992, they've got a fully formed 33-year-old DC system, and it is one of the envies of the world. 00:25:26.522 --> 00:25:28.042 We're 20 years away from that. 00:25:28.042 --> 00:25:31.902 And it will be incredible to see the progression of how that goes. 00:25:32.542 --> 00:25:35.962 And we've got much to be very, very proud of. 00:25:35.962 --> 00:25:39.222 I also, listen, I spent three weeks in Australia in November. 00:25:39.222 --> 00:25:43.562 And they are the kings of accumulation, but they are useless at de-cumulation. 00:25:43.562 --> 00:25:46.782 You know, I said to them, well, obviously you have wake-up packs. 00:25:46.782 --> 00:25:48.802 And they went, what's a wake-up pack? 00:25:48.802 --> 00:25:49.322 Genuinely. 00:25:49.322 --> 00:25:51.542 So they have no contact with the member. 00:25:51.542 --> 00:26:00.822 I mean, your app would do well, because they have no contact with the member pretty much between acquisition and, frankly, a week or a month before retirement. 00:26:00.822 --> 00:26:02.722 There is, I mean, there's a few touch points. 00:26:02.722 --> 00:26:03.942 I met someone at Pensions UK. 00:26:03.942 --> 00:26:05.502 I think you sent them over to see us. 00:26:05.502 --> 00:26:07.422 And yeah, exactly what you're saying. 00:26:07.422 --> 00:26:09.082 They're like, well, we don't have anything like this. 00:26:09.082 --> 00:26:10.262 Pensions mirror. 00:26:10.262 --> 00:26:10.962 This is amazing. 00:26:11.502 --> 00:26:11.942 All this. 00:26:11.942 --> 00:26:13.662 They are so far behind. 00:26:13.662 --> 00:26:18.642 And it's astonishing when we beat ourselves up with quality of advice and guidance. 00:26:18.642 --> 00:26:21.762 We beat ourselves up for targeted support. 00:26:21.762 --> 00:26:33.862 Most countries would give their ITs for the problem that we have that we're trying to navigate advice guidance, that we have the quality of the apps amongst various providers, that we're actually developing a dashboard, albeit late, albeit slow. 00:26:33.862 --> 00:26:45.942 But we're actually on the dashboard journey, which the dashboard is going to be the biggest all singing, all dancing dashboard anyone's ever seen given it's

doing state, DB, DC, private, everything. 00:26:45.942 --> 00:26:47.862 It's going to be enormous and it's going to be very good. 00:26:47.862 --> 00:26:50.122 So I think it's a lot better. 00:26:50.122 --> 00:26:55.422 There are a few things that I would say we are deficient on. 00:26:55.422 --> 00:26:58.822 Going back to our savings piece, we're just still a nation without savings. 00:26:58.822 --> 00:27:01.682 That's not a good situation to be in. 00:27:01.682 --> 00:27:05.002 I think people don't understand what they've got. 00:27:05.002 --> 00:27:15.122 So if I go into the tap and smile pub in the centre of Hexham, in reality, and I said to everyone, who here has got an auto enrolled DC pension and do they know what it is? 00:27:15.142 --> 00:27:17.462 One in a hundred might know what that is. 00:27:17.462 --> 00:27:22.422 Now, that's got to change over the next few years, but the Australian example shows that that is what happens. 00:27:24.262 --> 00:27:28.742 I would love it that we could rename auto enrolled DC pensions to something like a super. 00:27:28.742 --> 00:27:30.362 Yeah. 00:27:30.362 --> 00:27:35.002 Does it happen in Australia, though, because they're happier talking about money than we are here? 00:27:35.002 --> 00:27:35.602 No. 00:27:35.782 --> 00:27:49.082 There's loads of evidence that shows that it happened in Australia when their pots became sufficiently large, that everybody went, wow, I've got a 50,000 Aussie dollar pot or 100,000 Aussie dollar pot. 00:27:49.082 --> 00:27:49.962 What am I going to do with it? 00:27:50.382 --> 00:27:57.682 And by the way, the individual supers in Australia do amazing comms, really amazing comms and public comms. 00:27:57.682 --> 00:28:05.062 So they, you know, it's not just we would like to invest with Scottish Widows or Aviva or LNG or whatever. 00:28:05.062 --> 00:28:10.162 It's proper engagement with the member in public, in a public space. 00:28:10.162 --> 00:28:13.782 Less about the day-to-day thing. 00:28:13.782 --> 00:28:20.462 But for example, if they do private assets, for example, nurses' housing is the best example. 00:28:20.462 --> 00:28:25.282 I saw it advertised that your pension is making these key worker houses. 00:28:26.102 --> 00:28:27.662 That sort of stuff, they do very well. 00:28:27.662 --> 00:28:29.542 Also, they're 20 years older than us. 00:28:29.542 --> 00:28:33.582 We will change the way we do this when we get Dashboard, when we get other things. 00:28:33.782 --> 00:28:45.662 It will still be interesting to see if the British public are comfortable talking about their money in the way that the Australians are about signing around at the barbecue, chatting about how much is in their supers. 00:28:48.262 --> 00:28:48.862 We'll wait and see. 00:28:49.162 --> 00:28:50.542 It might be a kind of thing that does develop. 00:28:50.542 --> 00:28:54.122 We don't do as many barbecues as well, because it's always raining. 00:28:54.122 --> 00:28:56.142 True. 00:28:56.142 --> 00:29:01.702 Okay, so that's kind of, looking back, it's like we're not as bad as... 00:29:01.702 --> 00:29:04.682 No, I think we are better than we give ourselves credit for. 00:29:04.682 --> 00:29:11.562 We've got a model in Australia for accumulation, but we need to be fixing the retirement space. 00:29:11.562 --> 00:29:14.202 And it's something that we are doing right now. 00:29:14.402 --> 00:29:16.062 So there's loads of focus on retirement right now. 00:29:16.062 --> 00:29:16.582 There really is. 00:29:16.762 --> 00:29:27.422 And when I started that, I remember doing the consultation on de-cumulation, and Nick Sherry, who is my opposite number in Australia, said, you are doing this nearly 18 years earlier than we started. 00:29:27.422 --> 00:29:31.462 They only started a de-cumulation consultation on year 30. 00:29:31.462 --> 00:29:35.022 And we were starting it on year 8, year 9. 00:29:35.022 --> 00:29:37.602 We're miles ahead, miles ahead. 00:29:37.602 --> 00:29:41.802 Okay, so we're looking forward to 2030 on this. 00:29:43.322 --> 00:29:48.542 Today, you're talking at the event later on, your vision of 2030. 00:29:48.542 --> 00:29:53.642 So what I thought I'd do is give you some quickfire questions about 2030. 00:29:53.642 --> 00:29:55.242 It's only four years away. 00:29:55.242 --> 00:30:01.122 At Scotchwood, as we've been calling this decade, the connected 20s, the decade when all your finances become connected together. 00:30:02.782 --> 00:30:04.742 We created that right at the beginning of the decade. 00:30:04.802 --> 00:30:12.502 And six years in, it's probably not as far down the line as I would have expected us to be by this stage, but that's just the way it is. 00:30:12.502 --> 00:30:16.042 So let me go for some questions around some of these things. 00:30:16.042 --> 00:30:21.682 So first and foremost, 2030, will Dashboards be live and will they be game changing? 00:30:21.682 --> 00:30:22.722 Yes and yes. 00:30:22.722 --> 00:30:24.222 I'm very hopeful. 00:30:24.222 --> 00:30:26.682 I'll believe it when I see it, but yes and yes. 00:30:26.702 --> 00:30:28.962 Okay, that's positive. 00:30:28.962 --> 00:30:30.142 What about VFM? 00:30:30.142 --> 00:30:33.262 Do you think that will have changed things for members? 00:30:33.262 --> 00:30:33.822 Yes, I do. 00:30:34.542 --> 00:30:39.802 Clearly, the present draft is not the right draft, in my humble opinion. 00:30:39.802 --> 00:30:46.642 But anything that drives forward a focus on net performance is, in my view, a good thing. 00:30:46.642 --> 00:30:56.142 You will be aware that there are some companies over the last five to 10 years, I'm not going to name names, who have dramatically underperformed. 00:30:56.142 --> 00:30:59.202 And I, as a minister, could do nothing about that. 00:30:59.202 --> 00:31:02.862 Now, in Australia, I, as a minister, could close them down. 00:31:03.142 --> 00:31:07.282 I could move them to a better performing organization. 00:31:07.282 --> 00:31:09.302

And that is a good thing. 00:31:09.302 --> 00:31:19.782 It is the ability of government and regulators to step in and say, you are being grossly unlooked after, badly looked after by your provider. 00:31:19.782 --> 00:31:21.802 And by the way, this should also apply across the board. 00:31:21.802 --> 00:31:25.502 It shouldn't just be DC, it should be DB and LGPS. 00:31:25.502 --> 00:31:28.162 There are some LGPS that have performed terribly, for example. 00:31:28.822 --> 00:31:38.522 I genuinely feel getting a real understanding of performance and then rewarding managers and rewarding providers who do well is a great thing. 00:31:38.522 --> 00:31:41.182 Now, is the devil's in the detail? 00:31:41.182 --> 00:31:44.062 I know people get, oh, well, you can't judge us on this. 00:31:44.062 --> 00:31:49.102 Trust me, other countries, as you know, Australia have been doing net performance for a long period of time. 00:31:49.102 --> 00:31:54.182 Other countries are able to judge DC and DB providers on a long-term basis. 00:31:54.182 --> 00:31:55.762 There's no reason why we can't do it here. 00:31:56.062 --> 00:31:58.542 Yeah, and I think that's the crucial bit of the long-term basis. 00:31:58.542 --> 00:32:06.702 It kind of gets caught up in this idea that if you have a bad one-year performance, you're going to be shut down. 00:32:06.702 --> 00:32:14.802 Well, listen, I think you can do it on a one, three, five, 10-year basis and you can try and do some forward-looking metrics, very hard to do. 00:32:14.802 --> 00:32:19.022 But other countries do this really easily. 00:32:19.022 --> 00:32:27.602 And there are ratings companies, Super Ratings is one, other companies are out there, who will give you this today, quite frankly. 00:32:27.602 --> 00:32:32.522 And my slight nudge to the industry will be, why aren't you doing this now? 00:32:32.522 --> 00:32:36.262 Why don't you just, if you're so good, as you say you are, publish it. 00:32:36.262 --> 00:32:37.402 Publish all your data now. 00:32:37.402 --> 00:32:46.182 Just say, look, this is what we are, because most of our members in most schemes don't understand the performance metrics of that scheme. 00:32:46.182 --> 00:32:47.962 They really don't, in my opinion. 00:32:47.962 --> 00:32:52.222 Well, later on today, I'll show you in the app how we do that and see if you think that can. 00:32:52.322 --> 00:32:52.922 Yeah, good, good. 00:32:52.922 --> 00:32:53.602 I look forward to it. 00:32:53.702 --> 00:32:55.742 We won't be doing an addendum, but... 00:32:55.742 --> 00:32:56.302 It's OK. 00:32:56.302 --> 00:32:56.862 It's OK. 00:32:56.862 --> 00:32:58.342 Yeah, brilliant. 00:32:58.342 --> 00:33:01.722 OK, 2030, any changes to adequacy? 00:33:01.722 --> 00:33:02.822 Sadly, no. 00:33:02.822 --> 00:33:06.082 You might have a road map and one would hope you have a road map. 00:33:06.082 --> 00:33:12.742 My personal view is the any increase will be on the 2nd of May, 2033. 00:33:12.742 --> 00:33:16.802 The reason being is the next general election is on the 1st of May in 2029. 00:33:16.802 --> 00:33:20.042 There's no way that Labour are going to not go very, very long. 00:33:20.522 --> 00:33:24.902 Four years after that is the 1st of May, 2033. 00:33:24.902 --> 00:33:33.682 So you'd implement the change on the 2nd of May, so that politically you don't need to worry about the implementation, because that has consequences of treasuries and things like that. 00:33:33.682 --> 00:33:37.322 But at the same stage, you at least have a road map that you pass the legislation. 00:33:37.322 --> 00:33:38.962 That's the key thing. 00:33:38.962 --> 00:33:40.382 Okay. 00:33:40.382 --> 00:33:46.042 But you won't get an increase above 8% before 2030, in my view. 00:33:46.102 --> 00:33:46.922 Okay. 00:33:46.922 --> 00:33:47.342 Yeah. 00:33:47.342 --> 00:33:50.702 I mean, there doesn't seem to be much noise suggesting that we will, so. 00:33:50.702 --> 00:34:01.322 My worry is, for example, the pension commission doesn't report back, and then the Labour government doesn't respond to it, and we're suddenly into a general election, and then we are properly long grass. 00:34:01.322 --> 00:34:01.722 Yeah. 00:34:01.722 --> 00:34:05.122 So my next question was about pension commission. 00:34:05.122 --> 00:34:07.342 Do you think, what do you think will come out of that? 00:34:07.342 --> 00:34:07.922 It's a good thing. 00:34:07.922 --> 00:34:08.862 Listen, it's a good thing. 00:34:08.862 --> 00:34:10.302 I know Jeannie Drake and others. 00:34:10.302 --> 00:34:26.362 I think I tried to persuade the Labour government to make it cross party, put a bunch of other political parties on it, because the problem is, if it's one political party proposing one scenario, it becomes a political football. 00:34:26.362 --> 00:34:28.342 And that is not a good thing. 00:34:28.342 --> 00:34:30.002 They have chosen not to do that. 00:34:30.002 --> 00:34:31.042 I know Jeannie well. 00:34:31.042 --> 00:34:33.262 She's a very competent lady. 00:34:33.262 --> 00:34:37.102 And she's clearly, you know, she's in the original Turner Commission. 00:34:37.102 --> 00:34:43.962 But at the same stage, I will believe the outcomes being implemented when I see it. 00:34:43.962 --> 00:34:46.042 Yeah, not by 2030. 00:34:46.182 --> 00:34:47.422 I don't see it personally. 00:34:47.422 --> 00:34:48.662 I know Treasury too well. 00:34:48.662 --> 00:34:50.322 I'd love to be proven wrong. 00:34:50.322 --> 00:34:55.822 But Treasury have proven to me on a repeat basis that they block stuff. 00:34:55.822 --> 00:34:56.882 Under successive governments. 00:34:56.882 --> 00:35:00.862 It's not just this government, but they'll do it under this government for sure. 00:35:00.862 --> 00:35:05.162 And more about AI in the world of workplace savings. 00:35:05.162 --> 00:35:06.202 What kind of disruption? 00:35:06.282 --> 00:35:07.222 What do you think? 00:35:07.222 --> 00:35:10.022 What impact will it be having by 2030?

00:35:10.022 --> 00:35:10.722 I think a lot. 00:35:11.302 --> 00:35:12.622 A genuinely large amount. 00:35:12.622 --> 00:35:26.662 You know, there is no question that AI and is going to transform the way you get managed, sort of nudged advice and scenario planning basically. 00:35:26.662 --> 00:35:28.482 And that is it's already happening. 00:35:28.482 --> 00:35:36.222 We can see that all the all companies are creating AI bots to try and navigate you through the particular processes. 00:35:36.222 --> 00:35:40.402 I also think there is a massive swathe of jobs that are going to disappear. 00:35:42.242 --> 00:35:56.542 And I also think you're going to get AI taking over things like investment strategies and in a way that we, at the moment we pay very nice people very good money to do analysis and things like that. 00:35:56.542 --> 00:36:05.862 I asked one of the particular providers, co-pilots to do me a paper and it did me a paper in like five minutes. 00:36:05.862 --> 00:36:11.042 And I thought, wow, this is, and it would probably take me a day or two to write said paper. 00:36:11.042 --> 00:36:16.662 Now, I then had to play around with it and prove it, but the way that code is developing is astonishing. 00:36:16.662 --> 00:36:17.182 Yeah. 00:36:17.182 --> 00:36:18.042 Yeah. 00:36:18.042 --> 00:36:20.742 I don't think we'd disagree with much of that. 00:36:22.022 --> 00:36:29.642 And to kind of finish us off, what one thing do you think employers could do to really help the workforce retire better? 00:36:29.642 --> 00:36:37.562 So, I'm a massive fan of additional provision by an employer, and I've got good examples of this. 00:36:37.562 --> 00:36:41.302 So, obviously, you've got the bog standard 8%, okay? 00:36:41.302 --> 00:36:44.082 Now, some employers choose to auto-escalate. 00:36:44.082 --> 00:36:50.362 So, FTSE 100 employers tend to say, we like you so much, we're going to give you another 5 or 10%, right? 00:36:50.622 --> 00:36:56.222 I actually, even though I'm the former pensions minister, and I'm a big fan of pensions, I don't think they should do that. 00:36:56.222 --> 00:37:07.782 What I'd like them to be doing is I'd like to be re-offering their employees, first of all, rainy day savings, give them a 1% rainy day savings is a bog standard thing that every young employee should have in my view. 00:37:07.782 --> 00:37:18.182 The second would be things like housing deposit funds, and it's transformational in terms of productivity, stickability of employees. 00:37:18.182 --> 00:37:29.782 And I also feel that if you want pensions to have long-term resonance for Gen Z and beyond, you have to address the fact that most of them can't afford a house. 00:37:29.782 --> 00:37:30.722 Right? 00:37:30.722 --> 00:37:33.742 And pensions are deferred earnings, right? 00:37:33.922 --> 00:37:43.302 And if they genuinely have to feel there's no prospect of getting a flat or accommodation, why would they then engage with deferred earnings into a pension?

00:37:43.302 --> 00:37:50.842 So to protect pensions, bizarrely, I think you should be taking some money and investing it in housing deposit funds and things like that. 00:37:50.842 --> 00:38:00.282 Helping them on a journey, and I feel that if providers and employers did that, it would improve the outcomes on pensions. 00:38:00.282 --> 00:38:02.462 Less people would drop out, that's my big concern. 00:38:03.002 --> 00:38:08.242 And more particularly, you would genuinely transform productivity and retention of the employees. 00:38:08.242 --> 00:38:15.962 You think that's a more effective way than allowing people to take money out of their pension for their first house? 00:38:15.962 --> 00:38:23.242 So I was asked to look at this by Lloyd's, but a few years ago, and got into trouble with the FT, and Joe Cumbo has always had a pop at me. 00:38:25.002 --> 00:38:26.482 And plus ça change there. 00:38:26.482 --> 00:38:36.762 But the practical reality is, if there is a sufficient amount of money in the pot, I see no reason why you can't do that. 00:38:36.762 --> 00:38:38.162 So it's really simple. 00:38:38.422 --> 00:38:42.662 I give my money to an asset manager to invest in a balanced portfolio. 00:38:42.662 --> 00:38:44.242 He invests in property. 00:38:44.242 --> 00:38:49.862 But I personally am not considered a safe enough bet that I can invest in property with my pension. 00:38:49.862 --> 00:38:55.282 Now, I find that slightly illogical, given the amount of money I'm already paying for rent and things like that. 00:38:55.282 --> 00:38:59.522 So I genuinely think that we can find a way on this. 00:38:59.522 --> 00:39:05.002 And I'm helping in a very small way the South Africans who've created a two pot system. 00:39:05.002 --> 00:39:15.322 And you are able in South Africa to extract some money in certain circumstances, hence why it's called a two pot system, to do other things with it or from your pension. 00:39:15.382 --> 00:39:23.682 And the evidence there, early days, it's only been going a year or so, is that people are extracting some money to do things like housing deposits. 00:39:23.682 --> 00:39:24.102 Okay. 00:39:24.102 --> 00:39:25.062 Fascinating. 00:39:25.062 --> 00:39:27.542 Okay, Guy, it's been brilliant having you on today. 00:39:27.542 --> 00:39:35.942 You've played such a big role in recent pensions landscape, love that you've been so grounded and so invested in trying to help people to do better. 00:39:36.062 --> 00:39:37.822 And also to claim what they're entitled to actually. 00:39:37.822 --> 00:39:39.862 We didn't talk about pension credits today. 00:39:39.862 --> 00:39:43.682 That's another thing that you championed as well, even TV adverts, wasn't it? 00:39:43.922 --> 00:39:50.082 The amazing Len Goodman and I did a fantastic version of Strictly Come Dancing. 00:39:50.082 --> 00:39:51.402 I remember it. 00:39:51.402 --> 00:39:56.942 And yeah, pension credit and various other beneficial entitlements were something I was very big on. 00:39:56.942 --> 00:39:57.382 Yeah. 00:39:57.382 --> 00:40:02.342 And you actually created a pension engagement season as well? 00:40:02.342 --> 00:40:08.922 Probably the best legacy was trying to drive a bunch of providers to really, really get involved in this. 00:40:08.922 --> 00:40:11.182 Personally, I think it should be even bigger than it is already. 00:40:11.882 --> 00:40:21.822 And I had this pretty much, as always with the pension industry, I had to threaten them that I was going to do it and force them to do it before they all then went, yes, okay, we'll do it anyway. 00:40:21.822 --> 00:40:22.022 Yeah. 00:40:22.022 --> 00:40:23.262 It's a really cool thing they're doing. 00:40:23.262 --> 00:40:24.402 No, it's good. 00:40:24.402 --> 00:40:27.182 It's really great to be part of that. 00:40:27.182 --> 00:40:29.702 So a lot of great stuff to look back on. 00:40:29.702 --> 00:40:36.942 I mean, it's clear that you're still really engaged in adding value in the global pension ecosystem now that you've upped from just the UK. 00:40:36.942 --> 00:40:39.722 So thanks so much for taking time to join us today. 00:40:40.302 --> 00:40:41.722 I hope you've enjoyed it too. 00:40:41.722 --> 00:40:42.282 I have indeed. 00:40:42.282 --> 00:40:43.242 Thanks for having me on. 00:40:43.242 --> 00:40:43.582 Brilliant. 00:40:43.582 --> 00:40:44.822 Thank you so much, Guy. 00:40:44.822 --> 00:40:47.022 It just remains for me to thank everyone for listening today. 00:40:47.022 --> 00:40:51.982 We don't have Pensions Royalty on every podcast, but there's loads of great content. 00:40:51.982 --> 00:40:55.282 So if you've enjoyed this session, it would be great to have you as a regular listener. 00:40:55.282 --> 00:40:56.382 So please subscribe. 00:40:56.382 --> 00:40:57.342 Loads more coming soon. 00:40:57.342 --> 00:40:59.622 But for now, thanks to you all. 00:40:59.622 --> 00:41:00.402 Until next time.