Pełna transkrypcja odcinka The Imagination Gap, Regenerative Business, and What Is Enough? with Ximena Servin

where it just feels pointless because the crisis is so big that it's just like, well, like my grain of sand is literally moving nothing. 00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:33.199 And that tends to stop us. 00:02:33.280 --> 00:02:35.280 And what that's called, there's a name for it. 00:02:35.360 --> 00:02:52.639 It's called reflective impotence where we we know so much and we're so connected to all of the crises constantly, where yeah, we know a lot and we can think a lot about how everything's wrong, but then we don't know what to do about it. 00:02:52.719 --> 00:02:55.520 So we're just we we come into freeze mode. 00:02:55.840 --> 00:03:25.840 And whenever we try to think of new solutions or new ways that we could approach this, or how we could, you know, engage ourselves more in saving the world, also, quote unquote, we we smash our heads into a wall because we we are pulled back by the same system that won't allow us to just look beyond what the system is already, what it is already. 00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:28.560 So that's the imagination gap. 00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:31.360 We know that something has to change. 00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:40.479 We like to think about ways to do it, but the system is so like entangled that we can't really see beyond it. 00:03:40.560 --> 00:03:45.840 Um, because whenever we try to imagine new ways of doing it, we start to question but how would that work? 00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:47.280 How can I sustain that? 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:48.960 How will that get money? 00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:51.599 How will I make it work in time? 00:03:51.759 --> 00:03:54.879 How will people be involved if they also need money? 00:03:55.120 --> 00:04:05.120 Uh so actually the the imagination gap ultimately comes back to what pulls you back into that imagination gap is capitalism. 00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:06.800 No surprises there. 00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:19.360 Um, but it's very interesting how how that happens and how it's so enmeshed in our psyche and in our society that that we can't really see our ways out of it. 00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:33.920 So the big gap here is how can we exercise our imaginations to actually open a little crack between that crisis and see some light that guides us through somewhere else. 00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:46.480 It's so interesting that we're having this conversation right now because when I launched Supernova last year, that's what I called it was like a thinking lab, and I almost called it an imagination lab. 00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:52.720 And I was like, that sounds a little like Disney or like Pixar, but I was like, it is like look at what Disney built. 00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:53.439 You know what I mean? 00:04:53.519 --> 00:04:59.120 Like they were insane with like the concepts and the theme parks and all the different ways that they do things. 00:04:59.279 --> 00:05:09.360 And I actually learned that the way Disney's creative team operates, I could be completely off here, so don't quote me, but they have like different

rooms. 00:05:09.519 --> 00:05:14.959 So they have a room where they have the imagination people thinking of like the most insane things you've ever heard of. 00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:21.279 Then they leave the room and then they go to the like practical room of like, okay, what is it actually gonna take to do this? 00:05:21.439 --> 00:05:23.040 Like, how much money do we need? 00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:24.399 Where does this need to go? 00:05:24.639 --> 00:05:26.240 How many people need to be involved? 00:05:26.399 --> 00:05:32.160 And then you have like kind of a feedback, like pushback room that will challenge you and be like, this makes no sense. 00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:33.120 Who's gonna buy it? 00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:34.079 What's happening here? 00:05:34.240 --> 00:05:40.079 And I actually really liked to think of that for our own frameworks of like thinking really big. 00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:47.120 I've seen someone call this like galaxy brain, ecosystem brain, and like I don't remember the other one, ground brain or something. 00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:57.519 I'm like, I do think we need to kind of move ourselves through all these things, but for some reason we get stuck in the practical, we get stuck in room two and three, practical and real. 00:05:57.680 --> 00:05:59.680 We don't ever jump to imagination. 00:05:59.839 --> 00:06:10.879 And what I've noticed about myself, and I'm curious for you, is I can get really imaginative, and then I'm just like it almost like deflates from like, nope, but like I can't do that by myself. 00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:16.319 Like, that's a big ask, that's a lot of responsibility, that's gonna take years and years and years. 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:18.720 Like, I don't have the patience for that. 00:06:18.879 --> 00:06:20.720 I don't even know if I have the bandwidth for that. 00:06:20.800 --> 00:06:26.240 And then that's when I kind of just revert to like, all right, well, I'm just gonna be a personal brand and build my business. 00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:33.360 And even though I feel this inkling, like, no, I want to change something, it's it's obvious, so we can't do it by ourselves. 00:06:33.519 --> 00:06:40.079 So, why do you think we're stuck in this loop where we want to change, but we're not really taking the steps to do it? 00:06:40.399 --> 00:06:43.040 First, that's so cool about the Disney Labs. 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:46.240 Uh, it's literally how the imagination machine works. 00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:50.399 It's like just imagining something crazy and working backwards from it. 00:06:50.480 --> 00:06:52.720 And okay, what do I need to build around this? 00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:56.879 Like, what do I need to change about reality to make that happen? 00:06:57.120 --> 00:07:01.199 So we can dive into that a bit more later about how imagination actually works. 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:02.959 But yeah, first, why? 00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:05.199 Why can't we even imagine? 00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:09.199 And I for me, it's

two things. 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:28.319 First, it's I I've been thinking a lot lately about how our ability to live and think within paradoxes and things that are incongruent and surreal or unrealistic is literally what's gonna save us. 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:39.360 We we get stuck in this, like what is real and what's unrealistic, or what is left and what is right, what is good and what is bad, that we can't move past that. 00:07:39.519 --> 00:07:46.160 And a very clear example of this, but we can extrapolate that to almost anything, is our governments. 00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:55.199 Why do they get stuck in the same fight and never actually seem to make something that's actually meaningful for humanity? 00:07:55.360 --> 00:08:02.399 Is because it's either a left or a leftist or a rightist um policy. 00:08:02.560 --> 00:08:11.519 Um, so whenever you're talking to someone about politics, they're very quick to dismiss whatever it is you're saying as it as it being left or right. 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:13.279 And then the governments do the same. 00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:22.399 If there was this very nice policy or movement that was working, they will let it go because the left did it and now it's the right. 00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:40.639 So our inability to live like in the in the gray areas and grasp our minds around things being true, but then another thing that looks like it's the opposite also being true keeps us from from moving past that. 00:08:40.799 --> 00:08:57.120 Um, so first I think we need to be able to grasp incongruence and paradoxes, because our world is very paradoxical, and how that translates to to business and to making economy work is okay. 00:08:57.279 --> 00:08:59.919 We're we know capitalism sucks. 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:09.600 We all hate it here, we want to get off, but we can't just like stop because the wheel is turning and we still need money to to move things around. 00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:13.360 And if we want to make something good, we we're gonna need money to do it. 00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:20.480 But then how are we gonna get that money if it's not from like the evil hell of capitalism and corporate? 00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:36.720 Um, and what we need to accept is that yeah, there we are a generation that needs to hold complexity and paradox because we are weaving our way from one system and one world to another. 00:09:37.039 --> 00:10:00.720 Um and then the the other part, which gives into that too, is capitalist realism, which is essentially the the notion that capitalism is so embedded and so entangled into our minds, our systems, our business, basically all of our reality, that we literally can't imagine beyond that. 00:10:00.879 --> 00:10:21.519 And we have started to seen it as part of nature, and there's theories around that that have made themselves work around capitalism, um, explaining how nature is competitive and how it's save yourself and don't save the rest. 00:10:21.679 --> 00:10:27.519 When that is the

reality that we constructed, but that's not the real world. 00:10:27.759 --> 00:10:35.279 So imagination is what will be able to crack that little crack that will allow us to see the real and not the reality that we built. 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:43.440 Yeah, the the trap, like you said, is this is how I think of it, at least, is like take a moment to imagine a new world. 00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:52.159 But in order to imagine, like I need space, I need time, I need to talk to people, I need different points of view, I need a moment to wrap my head around things. 00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:55.440 And while I'm doing all that, I still have to pay the bills, right? 00:10:55.600 --> 00:11:00.159 The electricity is still running, the water still needs to get paid for, I need to eat. 00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:15.440 And so, under those circumstances, you can start to almost push this whole imagination um strategy to the side because you're like, I can do that when I have more money, I can do that when I save enough to take enough time off. 00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:19.600 And it's such a conundrum because I took a sabbatical last summer. 00:11:19.679 --> 00:11:20.720 I took two months off. 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:23.519 And I remember thinking, like, this is my time. 00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:28.399 Like, I'm about to imagine the craziest new things and like create a whole new world. 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:31.600 And what I failed to realize is I was by myself. 00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:37.279 So it is very hard to do anything creative or big or move the needle when you're just alone. 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:45.600 And I realized this would have been better if I had even like four more people with me and we all were working on something together and we had a plan, right? 00:11:45.759 --> 00:11:53.840 It was like, let's meet weekly, everyone come with your craziest ideas, let's like keep building and building and building, but we would all need to be on the same page. 00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:58.000 And what happens is that almost seems impossible, right? 00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:01.360 It's not, but it almost does because of what you're saying. 00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:04.720 Like, oh, well, I can't take off work, I don't have that much PTO. 00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:06.320 Well, I'm in the middle of a launch. 00:12:06.399 --> 00:12:10.559 I can't take off those five days, you know, or I can't take off the whole two months that you have. 00:12:10.720 --> 00:12:12.799 Um, and that's the reality, right? 00:12:12.879 --> 00:12:18.720 Is some people are like, I can't do that because my financial situation does not allow me to do that. 00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:26.159 And maybe I'm thinking of this too binary of you have to save and take off and and you know, be able to have space to imagine. 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:32.720 So I'm curious your take on that because that's the that's the biggest stop sign I see is like, yeah, I would love to do all that. 00:12:32.799 --> 00:12:34.799 And also, like, when is that gonna happen? 00:12:34.960 --> 00:12:37.519 Just because the bills do have to get paid. 00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:39.120 Yeah, absolutely. 00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:58.320 I I've I've been I I'm constantly am in that conundrum myself because it's like, well, I would love to have, you know, my my little farm where I'm connected to my food and all of the elements, and then I can think about a better world and do it, but that's not reality. 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:03.919 Like we we're here, we're in this capitalist world. 00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:22.240 Um, so my answer to that that I give myself, and that's what I tell my clients and just people in general, is that we have to give ourselves more grace as individuals and as a generation on knowing that it's okay, that's reality. 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:49.360 We we have to be able to create even the the smallest spaces to one, take that creative time to to imagine other worlds and have creative and imaginative practices, which we'll talk about later, but also you don't have to revamp your whole business and your life to make it you know regenerative or super impactful from the ground up. 00:13:49.519 --> 00:13:51.440 You can't, because that's also impossible. 00:13:51.519 --> 00:14:00.240 It's not it's not realistic for everyone to do that, and it's very hard, and that's why I got into this because it's very hard to do it nowadays. 00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:08.799 So we have to give ourselves more grace in one, acknowledging that that it's it's very hard, and that's okay, it's hard for everyone, and it will be hard. 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:32.320 But two, I think we can also use that hardship to empower ourselves in knowing that we are the generation that will need to balance out this two worlds, the world of our wishful need and wishful thinking of knowing that we can do better and just doing the best we can with what we have. 00:14:32.559 --> 00:14:44.080 And then what we're doing is building each time, we're building bigger paths for generations to come to keep walking them and making them bigger and walking them for longer. 00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:53.600 And I think that's a mentality that even the it's also what happens with this pullback that we get from capitalism. 00:14:53.840 --> 00:14:57.200 We it's very hard to have long-term thinking. 00:14:57.360 --> 00:14:59.200 I call it cathedral thinking. 00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:15.200 So, you know, you you go to the Sagrada Familia in Barcelona or whatever huge cathedral or huge um monument, and it's like, yeah, it took them 200 years or 300 years to build this, or the Sagrada Familia, it's taking them longer than that. 00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:35.919 And you're like, wow, these people really they they had a vision, they knew they would never see it to completion, yet they did it, and people were employed to do it, and they built and they built not never seeing it completed because they knew someone else would take it on, and they didn't

really care that they wouldn't see it completed. 00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:40.960 And I think that's what we have to think of right now: cathedral thinking. 00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:43.120 We won't see the system. 00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:44.399 I'm sure we won't see it. 00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:46.080 I would love to say we will. 00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:57.679 We won't see the system and the utopia that we want to see probably in our lifetimes, but that doesn't exempt us from not trying our best and doing what we can with what we have. 00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:06.159 I literally was just looking up my email because I wrote an entire email, I think last year, about being cathedral builders. 00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:08.559 And I think I used Sagrada Familia as well. 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:17.440 So I was like, obviously, we're on the we're on the same page about this because that's that's I think let me like gather my thoughts here. 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:38.320 That's I think the issue right now with the like the space you and I are in, at least for me, I'll speak for myself, is like online coaching, personal branding, building an online presence, you know, standing out amongst the fragmented attention, um, you know, hooks and retention and comprehension, attention economy, like all these things. 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:50.799 And it what I'm realizing in the especially in the last six months is like it keeps us very trapped in that short-term thinking where most people can only think like one to three months ahead of like, I just need this launch to go well. 00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:53.600 I need my rebrand to roll out, and then I'll think about that. 00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:58.320 I need to complete my membership, you know, fulfill that, and then I'll get to the next thing. 00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:09.759 And what I'm starting to realize is like, if yeah, you want to build the Sagrata Familia of the world we're in, you might have to sacrifice some things that you've spent a lot of time building for yourself. 00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:15.359 So if we use the example of the cathedral builders, it's not let's make, I don't know how many people worked on it. 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:16.960 Let's say a hundred people. 00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:28.240 If all those a hundred people were like, never mind, we're gonna stop building the Sagrata Familia and I'm gonna go build my own little like whatever, my own little structure, and I'm gonna get my bricks and like buy, like, see later. 00:17:28.319 --> 00:17:33.119 And now all of a sudden you have like a hundred people with their own little baby churches, right? 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:38.000 It's like, wait, you could all have just combined those bricks and made the Sagrata Familia. 00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:47.599 But I don't think, I don't think the industry, especially with coaching and personal branding and and influencing and all these things, it's not set up that way. 00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:59.279 It's actually set up like to be

a mini corporation, stand out against the competition, continue to scale, figure out a model where you don't have to be present 24-7 and trade your time for money. 00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:00.720 And so it's really hard. 00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:06.720 Like, I think a lot of these things sound amazing in theory of like, yes, of course, like you said, of course you want a better world. 00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:08.640 Of course, we want policy change. 00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:16.079 Of course, I want to see people not having to work when they're 75 to like have food and actually take care of themselves. 00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:26.319 And this is the conundrum I'm stuck in is like, I might have to decenter myself and my personal brand in order to think as a collective. 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:37.839 And I don't even know if we're thinking about that on a bigger scale or how you influence people to kind of decenter themselves and a personal brand when that's the way a lot of us have been able to access wealth. 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:48.799 You know, like that's how a lot of people can take care of their families and give back and do what they need to do is building their own business because they can kind of, you know, quote unquote take matters into their own hands. 00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:51.279 And so, yeah, that's the spiral I'm in. 00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:53.680 And I would love to just hear your thoughts on all that. 00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:55.119 Yeah, absolutely. 00:18:55.359 --> 00:19:04.000 I think we we might not know how to do it yet, but I do see an itch, hence us talking about it. 00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:09.599 People are starting to get an itch for community work. 00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:21.359 Like the, you know, the solo founder hero and um CEO persona is is, I feel like it's not the thing anymore. 00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:28.480 Even if that it is what that is what we're doing in practice, we're starting to get an itch of wanting to connect. 00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:49.680 Or I see it a lot in, you know, when you see someone talking about the same thing that you are, instead of the the reaction before used to be like, oh my God, it's I don't know, they're doing it better than me, or they're copying me, or they're gonna get to ahead to wherever before me because we have the same idea and they're gonna do it better. 00:19:49.759 --> 00:20:02.079 So I need to, I don't know, either change gears, do another thing, or do it before them, or we instead of just looking to that person and be like, hey, we're talking about the same things, this is so cool. 00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:07.599 Why don't we like feed on each other and and make it more abundant? 00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:42.319 And where that comes down to, and and it also comes back to our cathedral ways of thinking, is that um same as we want like instant feedback and gratification and returns for what we do, including our business, including you know, cheap hits of dopamine with social media and just everything in our liquid postmodern society, we want quick, we want we want reward that's very tangible and very quick. 00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:56.079 What used to happen before is if you saw someone talking about the same thing you're talking about, because it happens, like we're not um, we are geniuses, but you know, there's so many new things under the sun. 00:20:56.480 --> 00:21:14.480 Um, when we see someone talking about the same things we are, before it used to be like, oh my god, they're either copying me, they're gonna get ahead before me, so I need to either change my thing or I don't know, be quicker, be more efficient, so I can get there wherever there is before them. 00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:23.440 Um, and now it's like you you look at someone that's doing the same thing you are, or having maybe a similar idea that you have. 00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:28.640 And what we're doing now is just looking at each other and reaching out and be like, hey, we're talking about similar things. 00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:33.839 How about we connect or collaborate, or what are your thoughts on this? 00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:40.400 And I feel that's like a first indication that we're going the the right way. 00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:51.200 Yes, we still we're still figuring out how to put it in practice in a way that that works tangibly for a business, which there are a lot of ways to do that. 00:21:51.279 --> 00:22:21.359 Like there's a lot of economic models that are more cooperative based than the the solo founder and very High hierarchical is that a word, hierarchical um model of business, and we're starting to see ones that are more collective and more horizontal, where everyone can give what they bring to the table, and it will just create more abundance. 00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:36.960 And so the more complex model of thinking that we have to lean on in here is that businesses are like ecosystems, or at least they should be, and the economy should be as well. 00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:45.599 In an environment, whatever ecosystem you look at, there's no competition, as science was once saying a lot. 00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:46.960 There's cooperation. 00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:50.480 The thing is that cooperation is sometimes not linear. 00:22:50.720 --> 00:22:57.359 So some beings will not give directly to another being that will give directly back to them. 00:22:57.519 --> 00:23:04.000 They will give expecting nothing in return, but something will eventually come back. 00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:09.680 And that's how ecosystems work, and that's how the economy should work in theory. 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:17.440 So it's the thing is the economy has put us in a very scarce mindset. 00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:24.799 It works on scarcity to create value, but there is no scarcity in the real. 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:27.680 There's actually abundance. 00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:37.279 I love this because it goes back to a theory that like you actually can go farther together, right?

00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:44.240 Like you could compete, yes, and you could win and dominate and extract and get that top spot. 00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:47.279 And we hear this over and over and over again, right? 00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:58.480 Like, how many books do we need to read, podcasts do we need to listen to of people that have accumulated massive wealth, the top of their industry of their jobs, and they're like, I feel so empty. 00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:03.599 And it's like, yeah, because you did it alone and you did it in a probably dominating way. 00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:07.680 I was just at a cafe the other day, like eavesdropping on these kids sitting next to me. 00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:16.240 They were in med school, and they were talking about how their one of their professors is literally like the top doctorate. 00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:17.920 He's a doctor at Harvard. 00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:20.319 His wife is also a doctor at Harvard. 00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:23.200 They teach, they're like the tip top of their industry. 00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:26.799 And both of them were like, Yeah, we still feel like we have so much more to do. 00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:29.200 And they were both like, What else could you do? 00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:37.279 You're at like the most prestigious institution with the highest degree, teaching the highest level of education, recognized like awards. 00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:43.920 And I was like, exactly, like we we've learned this, even looking at how how billionaires act right now, right? 00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:51.920 Like, I don't think it's wild to look at what Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos or Mark Zuckerberg is doing because they've lost touch with reality. 00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:54.480 Like they don't know what's happening in reality. 00:24:54.640 --> 00:25:09.599 And when you think of what's happening in in their psyches, it's like, well, yeah, they can't enjoy just like chilling at the beach and going for a surf because they have created such a new reality for themselves that they have to uphold or else it all collapses. 00:25:09.759 --> 00:25:17.279 And this all brings me back to the collective regenerative business that you're talking about is this is my opinion. 00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:24.319 You can't want to be the next Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg or Jeff Bezos and also have a regenerative business. 00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:26.319 I don't think it works like that. 00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:28.160 You can lead the movement, right? 00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:30.079 You can be someone that's like in charge. 00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:34.400 Like we also need leaders, we need torchbearers, we need people that are trailblazers. 00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:46.880 But I don't think if your goal is like, I want to be Instagram famous, I want to have a top-selling, you know, book that has my name all over the world, you're centering yourself. 00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:52.880 And I think when you center yourself and you become the center of your

universe, everyone else is competition. 00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:56.240 And that's when the whole thing starts of they're using my words. 00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:58.079 I just posted that reel the other day. 00:25:58.160 --> 00:25:59.119 They're copying me. 00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:01.839 And this is rampant in the online coaching industry, right? 00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:04.079 Like I've even felt this even in the last six months. 00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:06.480 I'm like, do I need to start trademarking everything? 00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:10.400 And, you know, like taking ownership of my intellectual property. 00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:18.079 I'm still kind of in a bind with that because I'm like, is that me like being extractive and possessive and like kind of colonizer mindset? 00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:21.599 Or is it just being a savvy business owner? 00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:32.319 And so I want to talk a little bit about what do you think under a regenerative business where there is more collective thinking, more ecosystem thinking? 00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:34.400 A, what are the success metrics? 00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:42.319 Because I don't think it can be stripe screenshots and what your substack is ranking, and what chart number are you on the podcast charts? 00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:44.960 Like, what success metrics are there? 00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:49.759 And also what trade-offs are there to running a regenerative business? 00:26:50.240 --> 00:27:02.880 Yeah, it's so interesting that we that we always come back to Elon Musk as the epitome of post-capitalist uh thought. 00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:06.880 Because yeah, they it's so clear that they've just lost touch. 00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:16.559 And I think it's the um the proof that what we have as reality of how the systems work is not reality. 00:27:16.640 --> 00:27:28.079 And I actually sometimes even love it, although I obviously hate it when these guys are like so crazy in the things that they're doing and and saying. 00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:35.359 Cause it's like no doubt for anyone anymore that this is nuts, that it's not working. 00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:43.359 Like, I'm I'm just gonna be go off track before I go into the the trade-offs of regenerative business and the metrics. 00:27:43.599 --> 00:28:02.079 Um, to to give a notion on Elon Musk, for example, he always makes me think of Wally, like the movie where you know the the earth ended and they shipped us all off into these spaceships where we're all feeding through tubes or whatever and just fat and we are not moving. 00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:07.759 And that is literally the example of how these guys think. 00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:28.799 I've I've had conversations with tech bros telling me that my thinking that capitalism and the economic model is wrong simply because it can't be sustained with the resources that we have that are tangible and we we see them and we can measure them in the planet. 00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:33.920 And their answer is literally, oh, but that's okay because we are learning how to go to space. 00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:40.400 And then once the earth regenerates itself after we kill it, we can just come back. 00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:57.039 So that's the the way these people think it's like capital, you know, we we like to think that, well, the economy eventually they will realize that it's unsustainable because we'll just run out of the resources and the earth will die. 00:28:57.119 --> 00:28:58.559 And then what will they do? 00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:00.720 Well, literally, that's what they're thinking. 00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:08.160 Capital will survive the earth and it will, and we'll go to space and then we'll come back and it will regenerate. 00:29:08.480 --> 00:29:44.880 So if that's not an example of capitalist economy not ever going to work if we want to survive in this beautiful life that we have on earth where we can, you know, touch grass, swim in the ocean, have rain, laugh, it's delicious food that's not uh astronaut food that's dry, you know, all of these human earthly pleasures, if we want to have those, we it can't be under that um capitalist thinking of being the most successful person out there, like Elon Musk wants to do. 00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:48.240 So that's can I can I interrupt really quick because I have a question? 00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:52.799 When when you have those conversations with the people like that, like, oh, well, we can just go to space. 00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:56.240 Like, look, we're on Mars and we're gonna be able to go and whatever. 00:29:56.400 --> 00:29:58.720 Look, Katy Perry went last year, you know? 00:29:58.799 --> 00:30:02.559 It's like we we we start to think like, oh, maybe we are not that far off. 00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:11.920 But here's my question that I don't know if they've told you this, like, what is their end goal when they're saying, yeah, we're just gonna use up all the capital and then go to space? 00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:13.279 It's like, what, like for what? 00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:15.680 To buy a yacht to to fly private? 00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:18.480 Like, what is what are they working towards? 00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:20.799 Like, have you had that conversation with them? 00:30:21.039 --> 00:30:39.519 Yes, and and they're it's a great question because it's that's when you know you're not having the same conversations, because the I mean, you're not, yeah, you're not having the same conversation in your mind, because these people, for them, the ultimate goal is just to win at accumulation, it's to win. 00:30:39.680 --> 00:30:41.839 They won, they won capitalism. 00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:47.359 You you killed Earth and people, and you went to space and you won. 00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:50.720 Yay! And now you're alone in space, you know. 00:30:50.960 --> 00:30:54.720 Well, if that's your your win, then you do you, bro. 00:30:55.039 --> 00:31:12.720 But for the most rest of us, because I know it's obviously the

majority of humanity that want to live nice, happy, healthy, fulfilled, naturally lives, we just don't know how to, or we even don't know what we don't know. 00:31:12.880 --> 00:31:22.319 Um, and we see these in the there's a literal correlation between like mental health issues and depression and how the economy has grown. 00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:40.799 Um, and what that speaks to is that even if we're not having, you know, this conversation that we're having right now, questioning the system, we know like in our soul that something is wrong when you get up every day and you're working just so someone else can accumulate profit and go to space. 00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:44.559 Um that shrinks your soul. 00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:48.160 Like you, you that's how a lot of depression comes. 00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:50.400 It's just you know the world is wrong. 00:31:50.559 --> 00:31:52.720 So you don't want to be engaged in it. 00:31:52.799 --> 00:32:00.720 But since you don't know how to engage yourself in it in another way, then you get depressed and and you freeze and you can't move anymore. 00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:10.799 So a lot of what this work that we're doing and this conversations that we're having is doing is just even putting that conversation out there, that it could be possible. 00:32:11.039 --> 00:32:18.240 It could be possible for it to be possible if we at least question it and start thinking about how else we could do it. 00:32:18.400 --> 00:32:19.920 Will it work right now? 00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:20.720 I don't know. 00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:28.960 Probably not to the best that it could work for the next generation so far, cathedral building, but we still need to do it. 00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:30.640 Like we're we're still here. 00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:33.599 So I don't know if you have anything to say on that. 00:32:33.759 --> 00:32:41.200 If not, I can go to the like the core trade-off and what we're uh measuring in regenerative business. 00:32:41.519 --> 00:32:46.880 Yeah, I think I'm gonna I'm gonna plant this question so we can come back to it. 00:32:47.119 --> 00:33:05.440 But if we were wanting to persuade these, you know, space uh astronaut pursuit dudes about a regenerative business or not killing off the entire earth to go to space and then eventually come back, like what are actual ways we could do that? 00:33:05.599 --> 00:33:10.400 Because for me, storytelling and media is what changes people's minds. 00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:15.759 Like, it's not sitting down and debating, it's not arguing, it's not being like, oh, you fucking idiot. 00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:16.720 Like that's not gonna happen. 00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:18.880 Like, that's not how you see change. 00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:21.839 Like, I do think a lot of it is imagination and storytelling. 00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:29.920 So that's something we can come back to, but it's something I definitely want to cover is like, how can we collectively start to be like, what the hell is going on here? 00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:31.759 And can we turn this ship around? 00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:32.720 Beautiful. 00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:34.720 Yes, yes, we'll come back to that. 00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:42.160 So in regenerative business, and first let's just define what regenerative business actually means. 00:33:42.319 --> 00:33:45.359 It's just there's been a lot of talk about sustainability. 00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:51.279 Um, but sustainability, what it does, and it's great, yeah, let's be sustainable. 00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:59.119 Um, but it just makes sure, makes sure that whatever you're doing, you can keep doing it with the resources that you have. 00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:04.720 Uh, but it doesn't really care for anything, it doesn't have a positive impact. 00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:07.200 It just neutralizes the impact. 00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:22.079 So regeneration and regenerative business or regenerative practices, what they do is with whatever it is they're doing, give more than it took from nature here to life, really. 00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:29.440 So I like to think of regenerative business as a business that will give more to all life than it took from it. 00:34:29.599 --> 00:34:34.559 And that includes yours, the founder, you person that is listening to this. 00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:46.719 And yes, there are some trade-offs to that because you can't have a regenerative business with the mentality that you will be the top regenerative entrepreneur in the world. 00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:51.519 Okay, so first leave that behind. 00:34:51.760 --> 00:35:07.119 Um, because we need to see regenerative business as you need to leave growth behind, and you need to start looking at it as flourishing, and you can't optimize for both at scale. 00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:10.000 So we need to choose one, and here we're choosing flourishing. 00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:14.800 So with the first, that has to be very extractive just by nature. 00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:18.239 You can't grow infinitely without extracting infinitely. 00:35:18.480 --> 00:35:31.760 Um, and you're with that, you're first thinking short-term in reality, if you're not trying to go to space, because most likely you won't do that, you'll stay here on Earth and face the consequences. 00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:38.800 Um that just gives us, yeah, short-term prosperity, but long-term collapse. 00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:44.159 And with regenerative business, yes, you will grow to sufficiency. 00:35:44.400 --> 00:36:06.639 And for that, you need to know what sufficiency is and be realistic with that, and know what it is that you want and actually need for your life, and think about that for a minute, and align your values and practices for that and internalize those costs so that it's sustainable and that it's aligned with the values and it's smaller. 00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:26.960 So, what that looks like is there does need to be a cap that you can grow up until that cap and then it will be balanced,

and you can just create a loop, like a circular loop of business, be it of materials or services, that will continue to feed it without needing to extract more. 00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:37.199 So there's a lot of ways to do that, and the metrics will be different because in the you know, in macroeconomy, it won't be the GDP. 00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:38.880 That doesn't matter. 00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:52.159 Uh, there's, I think the best example for that will be if the GDP um grew because there was a boom in the pharmaceutical industry, well, that just means that a lot of people were sick. 00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:54.960 So what are we measuring then? 00:36:55.199 --> 00:36:56.559 So we won't be measuring that. 00:36:56.639 --> 00:37:01.760 We will be measuring actual well-being in the macro and in the micro scale. 00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:15.360 What about for online entrepreneurs, where so much of our success and how we create social proof and credibility and attract people is how much money we make, right? 00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:32.800 We can't we can't deny that it is very attractive when you see someone have a six-figure launch or that they're working 20 hours a week while making 50k in sales, or they could finally upgrade their house and live in this beautiful place by the water and you know, grow everything organic. 00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:38.159 And it's like the Pinterest dream that we all have, we all have our own Pinterest board, right? 00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:39.599 Of like, this is what I want. 00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:42.320 And usually what we want costs more money. 00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:44.559 And it's usually not a big leap, right? 00:37:44.719 --> 00:37:47.679 It starts small, and then I'll use myself as an example, right? 00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:52.239 It's like, okay, I'm used to being really scrappy with how I travel. 00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:55.360 I'm okay with getting the back seat, middle seat, who cares? 00:37:55.519 --> 00:37:56.400 Like, doesn't matter. 00:37:56.559 --> 00:37:59.039 I'll live in this apartment, it costs this much, who cares? 00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:01.519 I'm okay with sleeping on this type of bed. 00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:04.239 And then you're like, no, I want to be comfortable. 00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:05.360 I want a nicer bed. 00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:06.559 I want a nicer place. 00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:08.320 I want the apartment with sunlight. 00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:09.840 I want to live in a nice city. 00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:13.920 And actually, I do want a nicer seat on the plane so I can enjoy my plane ride. 00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:22.800 So all of a sudden, they call this lifestyle creep in economics, where you just start to slowly inflate or lifestyle inflation, where you just start to inflate your lifestyle. 00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:25.760 And you're not, it's not big jumps, usually, right? 00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:32.639 It's like incremental where all of a sudden, year over year, you're like, I am paying way more for my apartment than I was when I was 25. 00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:37.519 I am spending way more money on clothing than when than when I was 18 years old. 00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:40.880 And it starts to feel like, well, yeah, because I'm an adult, right? 00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:42.239 We use this framing. 00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:42.880 I'm an adult. 00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:44.480 I should live in a nicer place. 00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:51.039 I shouldn't have to sacrifice XYZ to live in this type of neighborhood or this bed or whatever it is. 00:38:51.360 --> 00:39:02.239 And what you're talking about, like essentially the art of enough, it's a concept I've been like trying to noodle on and like put together for so long because even the word enough triggers people. 00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:04.239 I ask this all the time on threads. 00:39:04.320 --> 00:39:09.280 I'll be like, what if we all knew our enough number and then could redistribute our income? 00:39:09.440 --> 00:39:12.800 And immediately people aren't even open to the conversation. 00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:17.519 It's ha, why don't you try living in California and see what happens then? 00:39:17.679 --> 00:39:19.599 In this economy, oh, really? 00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:21.679 Have you ever heard of property taxes? 00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:22.400 You know what I mean? 00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:27.599 Like there's no, there's no slowing down to be like, huh, I don't know what my enough number is. 00:39:27.760 --> 00:39:36.719 And I've sat with this and had to get really real with myself because there are times where I've looked at the income I'm making each month and been like, oh my God, I need to make way more money. 00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:38.239 Like this is not enough money. 00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:39.360 And then I sit with it. 00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:41.519 I'm like, well, Chelsea, what do you even spend on? 00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:42.559 Like, what do you like to do? 00:39:42.639 --> 00:39:46.079 I like to go outside, go on walks, get a matcha, go to the bookstore. 00:39:46.239 --> 00:39:54.559 Like, that doesn't cost$50,000 a month, which is like actually a real number I see floating around in my spaces to operate. 00:39:54.719 --> 00:39:57.119 And here's the thing: I don't have to do that either. 00:39:57.280 --> 00:40:01.440 There's a lot of people that will say, well, you know, try living in my apartment. 00:40:01.519 --> 00:40:02.960 That's$3,000 a month. 00:40:03.119 --> 00:40:05.599 You don't have to live in a$3,000 apartment a month. 00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:07.760 You just want to because it's more comfortable. 00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:16.159 And it's a really hard conversation to have because I think the way people internalize it is, oh, so you want me to scrape by? 00:40:16.400 --> 00:40:18.880 You want me to live with less and struggle? 00:40:19.119 --> 00:40:21.760 You want me to not enjoy the fruits of my labor. 00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:25.119 Like, that's how I think people are defending the

stance. 00:40:25.199 --> 00:40:40.400 And I'm curious your thoughts on all that of like, why is it so hard to think of capping our income and and redistributing it while also understanding, like, yeah, I don't want to live, you know, on any shitty place with a bed that I can barely sleep and not take care of myself. 00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:42.880 You know, it's a really hard conversation. 00:40:43.199 --> 00:40:43.840 I love it. 00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:44.719 It is a very hard. 00:40:45.039 --> 00:40:47.119 I think money talk is always hard. 00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:50.719 Like, we we love money, but we hate to talk about it. 00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:52.079 Money drives us crazy. 00:40:52.239 --> 00:41:00.400 Money is so interesting, which is great that it came up because it will lead us to the storytelling um part of the conversation. 00:41:00.639 --> 00:41:10.239 But I think, look, if you know what your enough is, then that will include whatever life you mentioned you want to have. 00:41:10.400 --> 00:41:24.320 It can be living, you know, flying business and not coach and going for walks and this travels and having this home and living by the beach and be able to grow your own food. 00:41:24.480 --> 00:41:30.159 That's that's the dream, like the dream of the person we're talking about, or your dream, my dream. 00:41:30.559 --> 00:41:32.000 And yeah, cool. 00:41:32.159 --> 00:41:35.679 If you know your enough number for that, then great. 00:41:36.159 --> 00:42:03.679 But the gist of this conversation is sitting with the uncomfortableness of why you're not comfortable with your enough, because we can know, okay, if I want to live in this beach and have you know my little garden, and I don't know, have this sized home and have all of these perks and travel and be able to buy these things, cool. 00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:09.360 If that's your core happiness need, then that can be your enough. 00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:18.320 And then whatever you know gives you financial security for prosperity and for early retirement or whatever. 00:42:18.639 --> 00:42:31.360 But then when you get uncomfortable with that and you start being like, oh, but what if I want to like buy uh whatever, a yacht, or I want to travel the world for a year, then I won't have enough money, then I need more. 00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:36.800 And if you take yourself on that trip of okay, why do I want more? 00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:39.199 What do I need more for? 00:42:39.760 --> 00:42:53.360 And you come back to yourself and your actual needs, and I'm not talking about being, you know, scrapey here and having a uh below your means life and not living your best life. 00:42:53.519 --> 00:43:08.559 On the contrary, I truly believe that people doing cool regenerative work that actually has a nice positive impact in the world should have all the money they want to have the nice lives they want, whatever that life means. 00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:26.639 But then I'm also sure that that life, if you are actually aligned with your business values and the impact that you have, that life won't be to the extent of needing crazy amounts of things and accumulation of money as Elon Musk does. 00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:30.400 Because it's just it doesn't work that way. 00:43:30.559 --> 00:43:32.559 You're not building for that. 00:43:32.719 --> 00:43:38.239 If you're even interested in having a regenerative business, you don't want that type of accumulation. 00:43:38.559 --> 00:43:44.320 But that doesn't mean that you don't want a lot of money to live the life that you want. 00:43:44.719 --> 00:43:59.760 And what that leads us to is the story that we have about money, um, which is that money is evil somehow, and that it's what corrupts people, and it's what is moving everything towards. 00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:04.079 Decay and collapse and everything. 00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:11.199 But that's really just a story that has been told about money, which has fulfilled itself. 00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:13.360 Like it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. 00:44:13.519 --> 00:44:23.679 We we think money is evil, so now it's used for evil and it's being accumulated by evil people to do evil things by doing evil things. 00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:35.119 But it can not be that money, all it really is is a token of exchange for services and goods. 00:44:35.360 --> 00:44:38.079 Um, so if we can bring it, yeah. 00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:46.639 Sorry, I just want to jump in here really quick too, because that's that's the point I make a lot is when I say, Do you know your enough number? 00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:50.320 Your enough number could be$500,000 a year. 00:44:50.559 --> 00:44:53.760 Your enough number could be I do need$100,000 a month. 00:44:53.920 --> 00:45:02.079 But for some reason, the word enough is like synonymous with living below my means or like living on scraps. 00:45:02.239 --> 00:45:04.559 And I'm curious, like, where do you think that comes from? 00:45:04.639 --> 00:45:11.360 Like, do you have any tracing back to like that framing of like the word enough triggering scarcity? 00:45:11.840 --> 00:45:12.480 Yes. 00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:17.360 Um there's this amazing author, economist. 00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:19.119 He's called Charles Einstein. 00:45:19.280 --> 00:45:21.039 People, if you ever have the time, read him. 00:45:21.119 --> 00:45:22.000 He is amazing. 00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:40.239 He talks about sacred economics and basically walks through how um there's stories we have for humanity, for economy, for ourselves, and for money, and how we could transform um the meaning of money to transform our economies, in short. 00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:50.559 So there's two assumptions by which the economy we live in nowadays works from, like two central axioms. 00:45:50.719 --> 00:46:03.280 And one is that there is scarcity, and two, it's that it's that people need to constantly pursue maximizing our self-interests. 00:46:03.599 --> 00:46:17.280 But both of those things are false,

they come from the story of capitalist economy, so they're only real, really, through our perception of reality, but it's not reality, they're assumptions. 00:46:17.360 --> 00:46:25.760 So there's an assumption of scarcity, and how the economy works right now is it makes something scarce so that it can resell it. 00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:28.719 So think any resource, really water. 00:46:28.960 --> 00:46:33.360 Do you have access right now to any natural source of water that you can drink? 00:46:33.599 --> 00:46:34.719 Probably not. 00:46:35.280 --> 00:46:38.159 But you have access to buying a bottle of water. 00:46:38.480 --> 00:46:40.079 Someone made it that way. 00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:44.320 People didn't, they survived and they weren't out looking for bottles of water. 00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:50.159 And now we think that that's just how it works, you know, like more for you is less for me. 00:46:50.480 --> 00:46:53.119 So that's that's how we operate. 00:46:53.199 --> 00:46:55.199 We're like, I need to have more. 00:46:55.360 --> 00:46:58.639 And if this person has more, then I will have less. 00:46:58.960 --> 00:47:14.000 And if that were true, if that math was equal, then we already have so much capital and wealth in the world that no one would be hungry, no one would die of hunger, or you know, but that that's not true. 00:47:14.159 --> 00:47:20.079 Yet we have enough food rotting in our fridges and in supermarkets. 00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:28.480 So there's abundance of money, abundance of food and of resources, but we're not distributing it. 00:47:28.880 --> 00:47:32.400 So, where does this scarcity mindset come from? 00:47:32.960 --> 00:47:44.480 And what we need to see is that as economy has grown, scarcity has also grown because economy is stemming from scarcity. 00:47:44.719 --> 00:47:52.000 So, whenever something becomes more scarce as a as a resource, then the economy will grow because they'll be able to sell it more. 00:47:52.239 --> 00:47:57.360 So we can literally directly link economic growth with scarcity growth. 00:47:57.519 --> 00:47:58.880 So that's how we got here. 00:47:59.039 --> 00:48:01.039 Yes, the economy has grown a lot. 00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:07.360 The GDP has grown a lot from most countries since I don't know, the last hundred years. 00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:09.679 So scarcity has also grown. 00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:15.599 Our cultural scarcity, our resource scarcity, all of that has grown. 00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:21.440 Most people, you know, we live in this constant level of anxiety of not having enough. 00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:24.880 And wealth scarcity confirms that, yeah, it's never enough. 00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:29.280 You know, we have things that save time, but we don't have enough time ever. 00:48:29.440 --> 00:48:36.480 We have, I don't know, cookers and Uber and um coffee machines and all these things that are saving us times. 00:48:36.639 --> 00:48:39.199 Uh, yet we don't have much time. 00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:43.679 So we're experiencing life from a scarcity mindset. 00:48:43.760 --> 00:48:49.840 And this is not like woo-woo things of, oh, you have to have like a more abundant mindset. 00:48:50.079 --> 00:49:02.960 No, you have to literally look at the world, see how many things there are there, and question why someone is selling you the story that there's scarcity when there isn't. 00:49:03.119 --> 00:49:10.320 Look at the amount of water there is still in the world, yet someone is selling it to you because they first poisoned it so they can sell it back. 00:49:10.480 --> 00:49:14.800 So there's this story of scarcity that we tell ourselves. 00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:38.480 So as soon as we realize that this infinitely growing economy is making scarcity on all levels of our lives grow as well, because it's what it needs to grow, then you can stop for a bit and think, okay, if I want this to grow endlessly, something will have to be made scarce. 00:49:38.719 --> 00:49:40.639 So why do I want to do that? 00:49:40.880 --> 00:50:10.400 Why don't I turn it around and realize that if my business is so abundant, not only that it meets my needs, but that it's giving back to the relationships that it's creating and to the consumers that it's impacting and to the people that I'm uh working from or the resources I'm taking from, there will be more abundance, and then I will be able to do it for longer by not making it grow infinitely. 00:50:10.639 --> 00:50:11.920 So that's the enough. 00:50:12.079 --> 00:50:19.119 The enough is knowing where abundance starts, and that's where economic growth actually stops. 00:50:20.159 --> 00:50:22.079 That is that is so fascinating. 00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:26.719 I feel like I'm gonna go top up on all this work from this specific economist. 00:50:29.199 --> 00:50:30.159 Wow, wow, wow. 00:50:30.400 --> 00:50:38.800 And I want to talk in a little bit, if we can, about some of the different economies, you know, circular and donut and gift, etc. 00:50:38.960 --> 00:51:00.320 But I I want to definitely talk about the storytelling element and imagination practices because, you know, a lot of what we're talking about again can trigger anxiety and doom and gloom and frustration and overwhelm where people are like, this is just too much, you know, like I don't even want to go and put my hand close to that because I'm just gonna get burned. 00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:02.239 And I don't want that to be the case. 00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:08.000 I want people to feel empowered that they can actually make a change with their storytelling, with their imagination. 00:51:08.079 --> 00:51:14.079 So, can you share some of the best strategies, practices, tips, anything you have to share with us today? 00:51:14.480 --> 00:51:15.440 Yeah, of course. 00:51:15.679 --> 00:51:38.320 I think for for storytelling, the the power of storytelling is as we've been talking about, what led us here is a story that we need economic endless growth and that humans

are competitive and we need to fence for ourselves and we need to accumulate because if not, we won't be able to survive. 00:51:38.800 --> 00:51:50.320 That story is not real, it's not anchored in reality, it's just like a fabricated collective hallucination that we are all constantly agreeing on. 00:51:50.719 --> 00:51:59.920 So, likewise, we can collectively imagine and hallucinate another reality and that better fits what we want. 00:52:00.400 --> 00:52:04.079 And that is one through telling stories. 00:52:04.159 --> 00:52:09.760 There is telling different stories about how things could work or have worked. 00:52:10.159 --> 00:52:27.679 So if we're constantly hearing and telling the story that we need to accumulate and competitive things is what will get us there, and you know, this solo founder persona being super successful and they by themselves got to the top and have more than everyone. 00:52:27.840 --> 00:52:35.039 And if we keep seeing that as the success story, then that's what we will keep walking towards. 00:52:35.360 --> 00:52:59.440 So differently, if we start telling a story by doing it, um, of how we can have successful businesses that are more communal and are collective and are cooperative by doing them, and here will come the imagination part, then we will start walking towards them because we will start seeing them more. 00:52:59.599 --> 00:53:08.400 And when we see them as successful and we redefine that success, then we we will have something to work walk towards. 00:53:08.559 --> 00:53:21.360 We had this conversation on on why Elon Musk men of the world even exist, like what happened when they were little kids that led us to led them to even want that. 00:53:21.599 --> 00:53:27.599 And for that, we can just look at the stories that are told like today in the cinemas. 00:53:27.760 --> 00:53:33.199 It's you know, bad versus good, and there's something successful, and there's a hero. 00:53:33.360 --> 00:53:41.519 So we don't see a lot of communality and cooperation, and we don't see paradoxes, definitely, it's always good and bad. 00:53:41.840 --> 00:53:53.280 So it will definitely require more complex storytelling, but that's also hopeful in the way that things work work for good. 00:53:53.760 --> 00:53:57.280 And they exist, they're out there, we just need to tell them more. 00:53:57.440 --> 00:54:03.599 I feel like people just feel like they're not important and they are, they are important and they need um more light. 00:54:03.760 --> 00:54:13.199 There's amazing businesses, amazing projects out there doing working in communal ways that we couldn't even see feasible, and they're working. 00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:30.639 So telling those stories and telling your own stories of how your your call-up with someone else in a business actually worked and made your mind and your content more abundant, ultimately leading to your income being more abundant. 00:54:30.719 --> 00:54:32.320 That's a cool story to tell. 00:54:32.480 --> 00:54:37.840 You know, we we have this facade of, yeah, I did it myself, so that's why it's so successful. 00:54:38.079 --> 00:54:51.440 If we let that go and actually acknowledge that doing things together or doing things with more purpose is a cool new thing, then that's what the cool new thing will be. 00:54:51.599 --> 00:54:55.599 And the rest will have to get on board or just be not cool. 00:54:55.760 --> 00:54:57.119 And no one wants that. 00:54:57.840 --> 00:55:06.159 Um, so there's there's some strategies to actually foster your imagination and bring it into your business, but also your life. 00:55:06.400 --> 00:55:12.239 And the way I would approach it is start first with your life and then with your business. 00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:19.360 Because if you start imagining directly for your business, the wall will come before. 00:55:19.599 --> 00:55:29.119 So if we just do it for fun and then it becomes a practice, you'll be able to extrapolate that and bring it into any other practice and project that you have. 00:55:29.440 --> 00:55:38.800 Um, so we went into one at the beginning, which was with the Disney Disney Imagination Labs. 00:55:39.199 --> 00:55:41.440 Um, that's a great example of how it works. 00:55:41.519 --> 00:55:43.440 It's called counterfactual thinking. 00:55:43.599 --> 00:55:46.639 So, what you do is just imagine something. 00:55:46.880 --> 00:55:52.559 So let's say literally anything, a giraffe riding a bike. 00:55:52.960 --> 00:55:58.719 And then, yes, you will think, yeah, well, I can imagine that, but giraffes can't ride a bike. 00:55:58.960 --> 00:56:07.760 Let's think about that, let that thought go, and then be like, okay, in this world where where giraffes are riding bikes, what would need to happen? 00:56:08.079 --> 00:56:25.760 So there would be, there would need to be, I don't know, giraffes would have, would need to have this sort of locomotive ability to ride bikes, and then the roads would have to be clear of trees because if not, giraffes would not be able to bike past them. 00:56:25.920 --> 00:56:44.480 So you'll start following this train of thought of everything that would need to rearrange itself around your world where giraffes can ride bikes and just follow it and then do it again with another thing, and then have an actual imagination thought of something you want to do. 00:56:44.559 --> 00:56:52.639 Like, hey, how about I it would be very cool if I could do X thing in my business and do the same thing and follow it. 00:56:52.719 --> 00:57:04.480 And now you know how to let the wall go of being like, well, that can happen, and you're like, okay, whatever, you already practiced imagining uh GFs riding bikes. 00:57:04.639 --> 00:57:14.079 So follow that train of thought and then start a log of evidence in the world of how that could be true. 00:57:14.320 --> 00:57:27.599 So if within your train of thought you landed in some very specific, I don't know, economic rearrangements or rearrangements in your

own business that would need to happen, look them up. 00:57:27.840 --> 00:57:44.480 Look like if that even exists or someone has made it happen, or start your brain will automatically start doing it, but start being more aware and actually note it down of whenever you see something that resembles this new world that you envisioned. 00:57:44.960 --> 00:57:50.239 That is a great, great tool to practice in your imagination. 00:57:50.400 --> 00:57:56.719 It's very simple, but it will literally open a new world of possibilities. 00:57:56.880 --> 00:58:04.480 And more importantly, it will guide you to what it is that's blocking that from being the reality. 00:58:04.639 --> 00:58:06.079 So that's a cool one. 00:58:06.239 --> 00:58:08.400 I don't know if you have comments on that. 00:58:08.800 --> 00:58:28.000 I love that one because I like starting with like the most, you know, quote unquote unrealistic, because then, like you said, you're not immediately putting that stop sign up because that's where my brain, this is where I get stuck a lot, is like, okay, my business, you know, I want this, whatever digital product to look different. 00:58:28.159 --> 00:58:39.519 But then I'm only it's like immediately the constraints go up of like, okay, well, uh, you know, this could be a course, a membership, that like I don't let myself even think outside of like the digital box of constraints. 00:58:39.679 --> 00:58:47.519 Where if I start with like, yeah, let's imagine that we're all flying around with wings every day, it's like, okay, well, what would that take? 00:58:47.599 --> 00:58:50.000 And then it it's almost like warming up, right? 00:58:50.079 --> 00:58:50.480 At the gym. 00:58:50.639 --> 00:59:10.320 Like, you got to go to the gym, get your warm-up, and then you can start to be like, whoa, I call this like I need to think of a name like Galaxy View or something where you need to zoom out way outside of like where you are, your location, what you're doing, and be like, if I were an alien looking at myself on Earth, what would I see? 00:59:10.480 --> 00:59:11.920 Like, what could I be thinking about? 00:59:12.079 --> 00:59:21.199 And then you start to be like, Whoa, okay, that just cracked the code of like I don't need to think of this in terms of an Instagram post or a course launch or a podcast episode. 00:59:21.280 --> 00:59:23.840 It's like, no, you need to zoom out times like a hundred. 00:59:24.320 --> 00:59:25.039 Exactly. 00:59:25.199 --> 00:59:34.639 And then whenever you do, you need to also get it in your mind that imagining is a risk-free activity. 00:59:34.880 --> 00:59:40.960 There's no risk involved, like nothing will happen if you imagine whatever for your business that's crazy. 00:59:41.119 --> 00:59:46.880 One, no one will know unless you tell them, and two, nothing will literally happen. 00:59:47.039 --> 00:59:53.360 So give yourself the freedom of a literal risk-free activity and just imagining it. 00:59:53.440 --> 00:59:58.320 Doesn't mean you have to do it, it doesn't mean it definitely doesn't mean that it will work. 00:59:58.960 --> 01:00:01.360 But we're not talking about that yet. 01:00:01.519 --> 01:00:08.239 You're just thinking about how, then you will will fit in the pieces. 01:00:08.400 --> 01:00:11.199 Um, but that's something that we we really have to do. 01:00:11.280 --> 01:00:13.039 Like, don't try to make it work. 01:00:13.440 --> 01:00:22.239 Do this first, and then when you are going to make it work, which is step two in this in this gym, is to be open to surprise. 01:00:22.400 --> 01:00:27.599 And what that means is be open to the surprise of whatever it is you imagined failing. 01:00:27.840 --> 01:00:28.960 That's okay. 01:00:29.199 --> 01:00:31.599 Um, that's how you know design works. 01:00:31.760 --> 01:00:34.960 You do an MVP, and then if it doesn't work, then you just do it again. 01:00:35.119 --> 01:00:42.800 So be open to the surprise of finding out new things about whatever it is that you imagined. 01:00:43.039 --> 01:00:48.400 Um, that means putting it into practice, and then you will create like a re-imagination loop. 01:00:48.559 --> 01:00:53.280 So you did this thing and you bring it into reality. 01:00:53.360 --> 01:01:00.320 So be it like an MVP or just telling it to someone, showing it to someone, or telling them your imagined fantasy. 01:01:00.639 --> 01:01:25.920 And you will have some sort of feedback which will make you rethink this whole path that you already went into, and that will trigger this loop because that will make you then think about it again, and you will go into a new course of thought, and then you will bring it to reality again, be open to surprise, figure out something new, take action, and then reimagine it. 01:01:26.159 --> 01:01:44.800 If you do that enough times, you will have such fresh ideas and also such like a fun state of mind constantly of expecting surprise and being able to find evidence for the things that you think are crazy, that it's it's just crazy how imagination works. 01:01:45.119 --> 01:02:00.079 And another very cool one that is related to that um galaxy view that you that you said is not alien-based, but it's uh it's called thinking in deep time. 01:02:00.480 --> 01:02:06.480 Uh, this is a methodology by Joanna May, and it's basically four questions. 01:02:06.639 --> 01:02:08.719 It's called seventh generation. 01:02:08.880 --> 01:02:17.519 So it's basically four questions where you imagine anything that you want to do without with all of these rules that we already said, it doesn't have to be realistic. 01:02:17.599 --> 01:02:19.840 Just take it through that train of thought. 01:02:20.079 --> 01:02:29.280 And once you have the thing, just ask these four questions, which is what would your great-grandpa or grandma think about it if they knew it? 01:02:29.679 --> 01:02:36.800 Um, what will be true in the world in seven years if that thing you want to do happens or you do it? 01:02:37.039 -->

01:02:39.519 What would be true in 70 years? 01:02:39.840 --> 01:02:53.199 And then the hardest one, but it's it's the coolest one because it makes you really think deep in time is what would a being living 700 years from now want you to know about that thing that you did? 01:02:53.599 --> 01:03:01.679 That will bring you to a stop because you'll be like, I can't even think about a being in 700 years because maybe the world is ending. 01:03:01.840 --> 01:03:04.159 Well, whatever, just think about it. 01:03:04.320 --> 01:03:06.400 You know, take take yourself through that. 01:03:06.480 --> 01:03:15.519 And it's also a very cool path of experimentation because you'll find out what your mental blocks are and what the assumptions that you have about the world are. 01:03:15.760 --> 01:03:23.840 And with this inquiries of looking for evidence, you will find that a lot of the things that are blocking you are actually assumptions. 01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:28.639 They're not the real, they're the reality that we built or that you built. 01:03:28.960 --> 01:03:39.679 So with this practice, you will start opening up what the real actually is, and you'll find more and more evidence for it. 01:03:39.920 --> 01:04:08.320 I literally want to go run right now and buy an imagination notebook so I can start trying all of these and just making that part of my day too, because you and I are in a membership and I posted, like, I need more imaginative, forward-thinking pieces of content to consume because my feed right now is all op-eds and hot takes and the whole like intellectual influencer of like what you really don't know about, you know, nail polish. 01:04:08.400 --> 01:04:10.000 And it's like, what are we even talking about? 01:04:10.159 --> 01:04:19.920 Like, I need I needed to detox, and I'd be like, this is the way to do it is like flooding yourself with imaginative, almost childlike thoughts, right? 01:04:20.079 --> 01:04:22.800 I mean, that's what the beauty is of talking to kids. 01:04:22.960 --> 01:04:24.719 You're like, what did you just say? 01:04:24.800 --> 01:04:29.840 And it's like talking about, yeah, like being a kid, and I think that's fun too. 01:04:29.920 --> 01:04:30.719 It's more energizing. 01:04:31.039 --> 01:04:34.239 It's so fun, it's so fun, and also doing it collectively, Dan. 01:04:34.480 --> 01:04:46.880 Like, I think if you can find yourself a group of friends or just people that you can just talk shit about that's not realistic with no purpose, is such a great activity, too. 01:04:47.039 --> 01:04:52.000 That and making time for boredom, that too, because that's another thing. 01:04:52.159 --> 01:05:02.159 We're constantly looking for external input to give us ideas or to give us inspiration or to um stimulate our minds and our creativity. 01:05:02.719 --> 01:05:12.719 But the most creative minds and like thinkers out there, what they do and what they recommend is actually giving yourself time for boredom and just doing nothing. 01:05:12.880 --> 01:05:21.760 And what I mean by nothing is nothing, so not a contemplative activity moment, not a meditation, not nothing. 01:05:22.000 --> 01:05:26.960 Just sit and exist and just see what happens, what comes up. 01:05:27.119 --> 01:05:41.760 If you dedicate even 10 minutes or five minutes of existing to your day and think about right now how how much you maybe don't do that, your imagination will and your creativity will start spurring a lot. 01:05:41.920 --> 01:05:47.440 It it doesn't take much, it's just we don't find the time to have fun and do nothing. 01:05:47.760 --> 01:05:50.000 And I get it, we don't have it. 01:05:50.159 --> 01:05:54.480 Sometimes we don't have it, and that's part of the problem that we're trying to solve here. 01:05:54.880 --> 01:05:56.800 But it doesn't take a lot of time. 01:05:56.960 --> 01:06:04.079 You can take five, ten minutes of your day and Just let your imagination go and see what comes from it. 01:06:04.719 --> 01:06:05.280 I love that. 01:06:05.440 --> 01:06:10.719 I think if you're someone who struggles to be like, yeah, where am I finding five to ten minutes? 01:06:10.800 --> 01:06:12.719 Maybe do it right before you fall asleep. 01:06:12.880 --> 01:06:17.119 And I share this because I have a really hard time falling asleep. 01:06:17.199 --> 01:06:20.079 And that's because I used to have really bad sleep paralysis. 01:06:20.320 --> 01:06:26.079 And so I think my body is just very subconsciously like avoiding sleep because I don't want that to happen. 01:06:26.320 --> 01:06:31.440 And so I started to be like, okay, well, let's like start making up movies in my head. 01:06:31.599 --> 01:06:32.320 You know what I mean? 01:06:32.400 --> 01:06:34.239 Like I'm I'm single right now, right? 01:06:34.320 --> 01:06:40.639 Like, okay, what if I like have the cutest romantic story tomorrow and it's exactly like literally like a rom-com. 01:06:41.039 --> 01:06:47.679 What if this thing happened in business that I, you know, the collective regenerative business thing became like the thing, right? 01:06:47.840 --> 01:06:52.960 Whatever it is, I've been doing that and my dreams have become so much more positive. 01:06:53.119 --> 01:06:55.199 Like, I haven't been scared to fall asleep. 01:06:55.360 --> 01:06:57.840 I will say Lisbon, I was having a weird issue there. 01:06:57.920 --> 01:07:05.519 I always have sleep issues in Lisbon, but like my dreams, even last night, it's like I don't even want to wake up from them because they're very like joyful and happy. 01:07:05.679 --> 01:07:12.480 And I'm like, whoa, I I have to say that must be attributed to this like pre-bedtime imagination ritual. 01:07:12.639 --> 01:07:14.639 And maybe it's right when you wake up too, right? 01:07:14.719 --> 01:07:20.000 When you come out of that dream state, instead of like checking your phone and being like, oh my god, I gotta answer 10 emails. 01:07:20.079 --> 01:07:23.840 It's like the 10 emails are gonna be there in an

hour anyway. 01:07:24.000 --> 01:07:31.280 So just like take the moment when you're waking up to be like, okay, what if I could like, what if I was five years old? 01:07:31.360 --> 01:07:32.719 How would I want my day to go? 01:07:32.880 --> 01:07:33.920 And this is actually fun. 01:07:34.000 --> 01:07:35.199 Like, I've been doing this too. 01:07:35.280 --> 01:07:41.119 Like, you know, a five-year-old might watch a movie in the morning, a five-year-old might go get like ice cream for breakfast, right? 01:07:41.199 --> 01:07:43.360 Like silly things, but it's like, who cares? 01:07:43.519 --> 01:07:44.239 Like, just do it. 01:07:44.320 --> 01:07:47.760 And also, it's more fun to move through the day that way, anyways. 01:07:48.000 --> 01:07:48.320 Right. 01:07:48.480 --> 01:07:52.400 And then you're like, Well, well, who says I can't do this every day? 01:07:52.639 --> 01:07:54.400 I made that up, someone made it up. 01:07:54.480 --> 01:07:55.440 I don't have to do it. 01:07:55.519 --> 01:08:06.000 And that's that's how your dreams and your imagination actually start creating reality, you know, they're actually impacting the real, like what you are doing. 01:08:06.239 --> 01:08:09.840 And that's amazing because that's what it all comes down to. 01:08:10.079 --> 01:08:17.039 The power of our imagination, and here you will realize it's not very, it's not woo-woo shit at all. 01:08:17.199 --> 01:08:22.560 It will actually create reality, like whatever we can imagine and dream of. 01:08:22.720 --> 01:08:34.079 Just think dream work is something that will sew, you know, the threads of whatever is whatever anomalies and incongruences are happening in your dreams. 01:08:34.319 --> 01:08:35.439 That's the magic of it. 01:08:35.600 --> 01:08:43.840 Like it doesn't question if it's real or not, it just happens, and then you you forget that you don't even question if how that could have happened. 01:08:43.920 --> 01:08:48.000 You had the wildest dream, and you're like, whoa, that's wild. 01:08:48.239 --> 01:08:50.239 And don't question how it could have happened. 01:08:50.319 --> 01:08:57.439 So give yourself conscious time for that and reality will rearrange accordingly, I promise. 01:08:57.520 --> 01:09:00.560 And it will happen with business as well. 01:09:00.800 --> 01:09:15.199 And think that whatever small change you can do in your business as well, that you can imagine beyond what the system is telling you is what's real and what should work, we'll eventually rearrange the full economy. 01:09:15.279 --> 01:09:16.239 And I'm sure of that. 01:09:16.399 --> 01:09:18.560 And if we don't see it in our lifetime, that's okay. 01:09:18.720 --> 01:09:21.199 Someone will, and that's what we're working for. 01:09:21.520 --> 01:09:22.479 Oh, I love that. 01:09:22.640 --> 01:09:24.319 I feel like that's the perfect note to end on. 01:09:24.399 --> 01:09:31.039 So I think we're gonna just have to do a part two about donut economics and circular economies and the gift economy. 01:09:31.119 --> 01:09:36.880 We will do a whole breakdown on the like economics of this whole side of business and the world. 01:09:37.119 --> 01:09:42.560 But for now, I know that you're building so many incredible things, and I want people to hear all about them. 01:09:42.640 --> 01:09:44.800 So tell us what's coming up in the world of Himena. 01:09:45.520 --> 01:10:04.319 Yes, a brief story on how it all came to be because I myself have been trying to build how regenerative economics could work, and I found myself bumping into a wall, and that's how I knew it was the imagination gap that was there. 01:10:04.479 --> 01:10:13.680 Um, so I started digging more into how the story came to be and how we can't escape it, seems like. 01:10:13.920 --> 01:10:22.319 So had to dig more on how we we can have tools to escape that to actually make our regenerative businesses reality. 01:10:22.479 --> 01:10:30.960 Um, so with that, I have an upcoming course, which is Nati Pical's core course, coming October. 01:10:31.279 --> 01:11:02.319 And what it is is really a path that will walk us from how we believed this story of separation, of scarcity, of capitalism, how we can unbuild it, then we will learn what is actually real, like what how nature actually works, how we work, and how with that in mind we can build around it, be it a business, a project, an activism project. 01:11:02.560 --> 01:11:09.279 So it's a work of unlearning what we know, reimagining what else could be, and then building it. 01:11:09.600 --> 01:11:11.439 So that's coming up. 01:11:11.680 --> 01:11:25.840 And also, since we talked about there not being enough spaces where we can just imagine things and have support in that, um, I'm also a lot in the ecological and conservation space. 01:11:26.079 --> 01:11:36.560 So I have a community opening up soon in October, too, which is just essentially for anyone that wants to talk about how this work is so hard. 01:11:36.880 --> 01:11:42.000 We will get tools for it, we'll be able to talk about it, um, network around it. 01:11:42.239 --> 01:11:51.279 Because, yeah, as we said, communal and community work is what's cool right now, and we're gonna make it the cool thing to be. 01:11:51.359 --> 01:11:54.000 And for that, we need the spaces for it to happen. 01:11:54.079 --> 01:11:55.680 So that's what's coming up. 01:11:56.000 --> 01:11:57.039 Oh, I love it. 01:11:57.199 --> 01:12:08.079 I'm planting a seed right now that you and I will collaborate on something because I feel like we're two, we're on the same parallel path and just coming at it from like slightly different angles. 01:12:08.159 --> 01:12:13.680 And it's like, yeah, we don't need to build our own separate churches, we can build the cathedral together. 01:12:13.920 --> 01:12:14.640 Absolutely. 01:12:14.880 --> 01:12:16.399 We're all building cathedrals. 01:12:16.640 --> 01:12:17.279 Let's do it. 01:12:17.520 --> 01:12:18.239 Let's do it. 01:12:18.399 --> 01:12:19.199 Thank you so much. 01:12:19.359 --> 01:12:20.720 Everyone, let us know what you think. 01:12:20.880 --> 01:12:23.119 Do we need him and on for back back for part two? 01:12:23.279 --> 01:12:23.920 I already know we do. 01:12:24.000 --> 01:12:25.279 That's a rhetorical question. 01:12:25.439 --> 01:12:27.359 So I will see you in part two. 01:12:27.680 --> 01:12:29.600 Thank you so much for coming on. 01:12:30.000 --> 01:12:30.880 Thank you. 01:12:31.199 --> 01:12:31.840 Bye.