Pełna transkrypcja odcinka 286. How Experimenting With Lead Generation Led to $250K in Consulting Work with Crystal Hincks

might want to explore to look at how they can demonstrate their impact, as well as supporting them with just a number of other sort of program implementation strategies and the like. 00:04:54.079 --> 00:04:54.560 Amazing. 00:04:54.720 --> 00:04:57.360 And how did you get into independent consulting? 00:04:58.160 --> 00:05:04.639 So I actually worked in frontline mental health corrections, I worked as a coroner, so I had a lot of frontline experience. 00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:06.959 And I sort of fell into research. 00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:12.000 Uh, when I was in university, I was asked to help with a research project through one of my professors. 00:05:12.160 --> 00:05:16.000 And as soon as I started that one project, I just fell in love with research. 00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:18.800 And so I was sort of always doing that on the side. 00:05:18.879 --> 00:05:22.800 I would get side projects through school, you know, things would just come my way. 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:26.399 And then more and more I just realized that's what I really loved doing. 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:29.040 I mean, frontline is quite intensive work. 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:31.199 Um, it can be very draining. 00:05:31.439 --> 00:05:34.720 You know, you see some terrible things, you also see some wins for people. 00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:43.920 But I found that just with my interest and, you know, my abilities, I could have a bigger impact by doing something sort of at like a higher level, more around policy. 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:47.519 And so with the research, evaluation goes hand in hand with that. 00:05:47.600 --> 00:05:53.839 And so then I started um getting some research projects under my belt, and I just slowly built it up over time. 00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:56.480 So it just sort of happened quite organically. 00:05:56.800 --> 00:06:00.399 And you just made the leap recently to full-time consulting, right? 00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:03.360 Was it maybe a year ago or a little less than a year ago? 00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:04.800 Yeah, about a year ago. 00:06:04.959 --> 00:06:21.040 And there's been other times in my life, you know, between employment positions that I had where I was, you know, working on my own a little bit on the projects I had, but I had never really put all of my attention onto this business to help it grow so that I could just do it full time. 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:29.680 And so, yes, I was always sort of working in these different sectors and I and I loved those jobs, and I'm really grateful for them because they're just such great learning opportunities. 00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:31.920 They are great for making connections. 00:06:32.160 --> 00:06:36.639 But then, yeah, sort of I just decided like this is ultimately what I want to do. 00:06:36.800 --> 00:06:40.079 I love the freedom of consulting. 00:06:40.319 --> 00:06:50.480 I really care about having like my lifestyle the way I wanted, as far as you know, getting up, walking my dogs in the morning, and and then

jumping into work and having a variety of different projects. 00:06:50.639 --> 00:06:54.079 So consulting is definitely the life that fits me best. 00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:55.439 Amazing. 00:06:55.759 --> 00:06:59.759 So one of the things we've been working on together is lead generation. 00:06:59.920 --> 00:07:12.399 So tell us a little bit about how you landed the you know, the transition from full-time to consulting and how you started trying working on generating leads for the business. 00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:30.480 So, like so many of the other consultants that I'm sure listen to you or have worked with you, I was one of those people that sort of took the work with me when I left full-time employment positions, where I would just say, you know, like I'm moving on for this reason, but I'm happy to continue working on a consulting basis. 00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:34.560 And I was fortunate enough to sort of have three positions back-to-back do that. 00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:36.879 So I was carrying that work forward. 00:07:37.759 --> 00:07:50.800 And then I just decided that I would also have to get out there and work on the lead gen strategy, which sort of led me to work with you, because in the nonprofit sector and particularly around research, everything is tied to grant funding. 00:07:51.199 --> 00:08:02.879 And so while nonprofits may have a budget for that, it's really dependent on the sector, the organization, uh what's happening at the time, you know, politically, how much funding is sort of moving in and out of organizations. 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:16.240 And so I was always sort of my lead gen strategy was to support organizations with applying for grants for work that they would do, knowing that a portion of that funding would then be allocated for evaluation. 00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:21.199 So I was sort of at the whim of whether or not an organization received funding. 00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:32.320 And so it was it was tough because, you know, when it did work out and there was funding available, then I had that work for, you know, one to three years, depending on the grant term, but it was not sustainable. 00:08:32.559 --> 00:08:44.639 So as I was working with you, I was really just sort of trying to take a more like business-minded approach, opposed to just that sort of nonprofit sector where you're just always being helpful for free. 00:08:45.360 --> 00:09:00.559 And so yeah, I just really started to focus on how do I reach out to people, how do I make an offer, how do I decide what my off my foot in the door offer is or what my range of services is, because that was quite tough as well. 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:04.320 In my conversations with people, did I tell them I was an evaluator? 00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:05.919 Do I tell them I'm a researcher? 00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:08.240 Do I tell them I do program implementation? 00:09:08.320 --> 00:09:10.159 Because I do all of those things. 00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:14.000 But it always felt like

it was hard to articulate what I was doing. 00:09:14.080 --> 00:09:23.679 And so when it came to lead generation, it just wasn't super clear for me on what I should be going after and what would make the most sense for my business. 00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:32.240 So you had tried a lot of different ways, I think, to create leads over the time that we've worked together, a lot of experimentation. 00:09:32.639 --> 00:09:36.320 Let's talk a little bit about what made it hard to stay consistent. 00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:46.559 And if you walk us through a few of the different ways you tried to generate leads, some of the struggles I think that you've you had was staying consistent and eventually committing to one direction. 00:09:46.879 --> 00:09:47.279 Right. 00:09:47.519 --> 00:09:54.159 So, as I just said, sort of having all these areas of interest and going in all these different directions was definitely a challenge. 00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:58.559 Consistency just around how I reached out to organizations. 00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:04.399 I I had that sort of mindset, and that's where coaching helped me that I didn't want to be sales-y. 00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:13.039 And I had always had the benefit of, you know, work sort of being inbound for me, which worked because I always had a full-time job, and so I wasn't relying on this work. 00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:19.679 But becoming a fully independent consultant meant I had to actually build a pipeline and keep the work coming in. 00:10:19.759 --> 00:10:26.080 And so working towards consistency was definitely tough because my my brain was sort of all over the place. 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:39.120 And I had worked in in these sectors for so long that I think I had a mix of what I knew to be true about how they operate, but also with that some some assumptions about how they might respond to what I was doing. 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:42.720 And so it would feel like, oh, I shouldn't do that approach because they won't like that. 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:49.279 And so that was sort of a a hurdle I had to get over to just say, you know, is that true? 00:10:49.519 --> 00:10:50.960 Have I at least tried it? 00:10:51.200 --> 00:10:53.679 Is there a way I can adapt that approach? 00:10:53.919 --> 00:11:10.080 And so, really, like looking at the best way to just engage with these organizations and get to know them a little bit because they are so relationship-based that, you know, if they if they like you, they want to find a way to work with you, they want your support. 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:11.840 Um, they're very team focused. 00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:14.720 And so it was just a matter of how do I reach out to them? 00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:16.960 How do I start to build those relationships? 00:11:17.200 --> 00:11:19.039 How do I do that consistently? 00:11:19.279 --> 00:11:22.320 Because then I would get sort of buried in client work sometimes. 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:29.519 So then my efforts to build up that pipeline and

reach out to people would stop or slow down until I felt like I had the capacity. 00:11:29.600 --> 00:11:31.600 So that was sort of on the back burner. 00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:45.840 And so I think just, you know, again, through coaching and just those like strategy sessions, being accountable to you and other people in the group where I had to, you know, show up the next week and be asked if I did what I said I was going to do. 00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:56.799 Face the group was important to me because it's it's easy when you work for yourself and you're sort of only accountable to yourself to give yourself a break when you want to. 00:11:56.960 --> 00:12:03.279 So yeah, I think just applying those strategies and and trying a number of things that I wouldn't normally try to do. 00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:23.440 For example, like a speaking tour, you know, and like engaging some of the some of the leadership at the nonprofit um organizations at those levels, engaging them to just hear about where their pain points are and where they're struggling with evaluation or what their needs might be, and then trying to develop that into a white paper. 00:12:23.679 --> 00:12:35.440 But I found that that approach was not always successful because as to like when I sent my email, they would sort of try to pass me off to like, oh, well, I'm you should probably talk to our evaluation person about that. 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:39.919 Or, you know, let me send you over to the program manager because they might have better insight. 00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:45.679 And so it was tough because I'm trying to tell them I would like to speak to you because you're the decision maker. 00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:46.240 Right. 00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:50.159 They weren't always making the connection about what I was trying to do with it. 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:56.240 I think this is so amazing because you put in, we just made our best guess, right? 00:12:56.480 --> 00:13:00.960 But you had relocated from Canada to California and then eventually to Arizona. 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:06.000 So you didn't have the exact the network in the US that you had in Canada. 00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:06.399 Right. 00:13:06.559 --> 00:13:09.360 And then you were also moving from full-time consulting. 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:16.799 And so, with all of those changes in mind, trying to figure out how do you get on the calendar of decision makers? 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:20.799 How do you get their attention with people that don't know you yet? 00:13:21.039 --> 00:13:26.480 Of course, you could call back to the people in Canada, but you wanted to also grow the business here in the US. 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:35.679 And so what my reflection back in the journey that you've taken is that that initial the learnings from this, right? 00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:41.039 Like the willingness that you had and have had and still have to put a strategy in place. 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:49.360 And then you realize, wait, you put it

in place a long enough to figure out this is really valuable, but it's not getting the attention of the right people. 00:13:49.600 --> 00:14:08.399 And so then my recollection is you shifted from that tour of the white paper, you know, doing a readout of the white paper, and then you moved into um hosting your own trainings essentially online for executive directors of nonprofits and leaders in that space. 00:14:08.559 --> 00:14:13.279 And so then tell us a little bit about what you learned from that experiment, right? 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:16.480 So, yes, 100% you just nailed all of that. 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:20.159 Moving to the US from Canada, I didn't have the relationships here. 00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:26.000 And so building up a reputation and you know, building up a network is something I had to start from scratch. 00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:29.919 And so, yes, it was just a matter of trying things. 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:40.000 Again, I sort of, with your support and coaching, decided to niche down to social return on investment, which is just one evaluation methodology. 00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:46.960 It's not as well known in the US as it is in Canada and in parts of Europe, but it's very effective. 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:48.480 Funders love it. 00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:51.919 And when organizations hear about it, they're like, wow, I really want that. 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:57.440 And so it's like it's a nice product, it's a simple evaluation strategy. 00:14:57.519 --> 00:15:00.480 I say it's simple, not easy, just in terms of what you can do with it. 00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:01.600 It's very adaptable. 00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:10.240 So deciding to niche down on that, I just started with launching a webinar into the abyss with, you know, no, no audience. 00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:12.320 Just started posting on LinkedIn. 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:22.159 I reached out to people that I did know and just said, hey, I'm doing this webinar on what is SROI, just to introduce the concept and see if I could get some people to attend. 00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:31.840 Attendance was small, but still it was the whole point of it was to just do that practice run and just get that first one under the belt and you know, see what would happen. 00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:36.240 And I did have some people reach out to me after though to say we would love to talk more about that. 00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:40.559 And a couple of those organizations I actually did end up getting some work from. 00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:47.120 So it was fruitful in that sense, just to start introducing that whole concept. 00:15:47.360 --> 00:16:00.240 And so really focusing on that allowed me to then develop a LinkedIn strategy where that's sort of all I post about, you know, posting past SROI evaluations because people like to see that. 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:10.879 I mean, with SROI, the condensed version of what it does is it it's able to show how the investment in the program leads to economic and social value. 00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:33.120 So you can say for every dollar invested in this crime prevention program, the systems are saving about$4.50 in the long run because by helping youth early on and and sort of doing some preventative work, they're not involved in the justice system, they're not going through the courts, they're not, you know, getting into trouble at school, they're re-engaged with school. 00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:34.320 So there's all these things that happen. 00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:40.480 And so it's a nice evaluation methodology and just being able to share that was was creating some interest on LinkedIn. 00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:49.519 So I started noticing I was getting about three to five new followers or connections per week just from posting about that and keeping that train rolling. 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:54.799 And then sort of the big idea I had most recently was this. 00:16:55.039 --> 00:17:05.599 Oh, before you go, I want to before you go into the big idea, which everyone's gonna want to hear, I want to say one other thing that I maybe you remember this, or maybe it's like part of the blur. 00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:11.200 But you did such a good job, like you were just describing, Crystal, of building this webinar. 00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:16.480 At one point, a bunch of bots like registered or something, and then we had to work through that. 00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:26.559 And then and you gave this webinar and you started building a content, you know, a visibility strategy, a thought leadership strategy that was creating these connections. 00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:47.200 My recollection also was that you were getting a lot of conversations from this activity, and it was more of the decision maker from than you had in the first strategy, but you were still starting to get stuck in the friend zone a little bit with those individuals, and it wasn't moving on to as many engagements as you were expecting or thought it would. 00:17:47.440 --> 00:18:01.200 Say a little bit about that part of the journey of how you navigated through that and maybe how you started thinking a little bit differently and how you decided then to it was time to morph into this next strategy we're gonna talk about here in a second. 00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:01.759 Right. 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:06.000 So, yes, it was definitely a period of learning, I like to call it. 00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:10.480 Yes, and it was again it was just trial and error and it was uncomfortable. 00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:15.039 But just doing that and then, you know, sort of trying something and see what would happen. 00:18:15.119 --> 00:18:20.000 And I think the challenge there was I still was not clear on what I was offering. 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:25.200 Because, you know, I would have these conversations and I would say, like, yes, I can help with that. 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:32.240 And I, you know, I or I just kind of jumped to, well, let me put together a proposal for

you after I had heard about what they might like. 00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:41.279 And, you know, from there, then sort of sometimes they'd see the price tag and just be like, we don't have the budget for that right now, or they'd say, you know, we need to go away and find a funder. 00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:46.079 So we're still very interested, but we're going to have to look for funding for this and come back. 00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:51.519 And a lot of times, too, admittedly, I was sort of letting them take the lead on what things would look like. 00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:55.519 So, you know, I was I was quite guilty of saying, you know, what do you need? 00:18:55.599 --> 00:19:12.559 Or I can adjust the cost based on what you have for a budget, and just sort of, I don't know if it's from a scarcity or lack mindset because I try not to live in that space, but it was certainly like that mentality of like, I want the work just to keep the work going and again to build relationships. 00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:28.880 So that was one part of it that was quite tough as well, is I was starting to get those conversations on my calendar, but I couldn't quite nail down what that conversation looked like and sort of how I didn't have that formula of this is how I'm going to go into it, this is my approach. 00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:30.400 It wasn't very structured. 00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:39.839 I was sort of just going in, saying, letting them tell me what they might need, letting me tell them how I can potentially help them, then proposal, which I think is a normal strategy for a lot of us. 00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:48.400 But there was still that little missing piece that I couldn't quite figure out as to like why they were not quite following through on it. 00:19:48.559 --> 00:20:00.400 Um, so almost like they were sort of just sampling or, you know, having a conversation just to kind of see what it's about to get an idea for themselves, as opposed to being very serious about wanting this thing done. 00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:01.039 Yeah. 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:10.480 And so what shifted, Crystal, when you think about that process and now what you're doing, was there a mindset shift that you had that helped to get out of that? 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:13.839 I like to call it the premature proposal process. 00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:17.839 I mean, really, we just that whole process can be uncomfortable for us, right? 00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:23.680 So it's like, let me just jump to the end and see if you're if you are serious or not, or if you want to move forward. 00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:34.240 Let's skip over the middle part of having to like craft this and go through iterations and get feedback that maybe we don't want to hear or whatever the reason is. 00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:41.359 So say more about what you learned in that process and how it helps shift out of the premature proposal phase. 00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:52.079 I think I had to really drill down on who I wanted to work with, what my ICO clients look like, what I wanted to be charging for these services, knowing that there is some flexibility. 00:20:52.240 --> 00:21:00.319 I mean, my work does have a lot of flexibility, and I'm okay to adjust that, you know, because I can always change the scope of work a little bit, but still deliver. 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:07.119 But I definitely had to just go into it with a different mindset around I'm the business owner here. 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:13.200 They have reached out asking for my services and you know what I have to offer and they want to have that conversation. 00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:27.359 But going in with a sort of just a bit of a plan, like I said, you know, listening for things to sort of help me assess their readiness and also looking for ways that I could potentially help them at no cost just from what they're saying. 00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:49.920 So if they were telling me that they don't have a designated evaluator in-house and that they haven't done any evaluation before, I was able to just say, well, why don't we start with me sending you some of my free resources and you take a look at them and you know, do a little bit of an assessment to see where you're at, to see if you're ready for this SROI or some kind of other evaluation support. 00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:57.119 And that was really low risk because you know, I really believe in the concept of like even if you lose the sale, win the relationship. 00:21:57.759 --> 00:22:01.119 And so, you know, where you can add value and be Helpful. 00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:10.799 They may not have been ready to work with me, but just to build that relationship and to have added value for them and just given some support at a time they might need it, they do come back around. 00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:12.880 I've had that happen several times now. 00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:13.519 Yes. 00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:16.960 Even if you lose the sale, you win the relationship, right? 00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:22.720 And I think for you, it's also dovetails with you started realizing, like, oh, I can create demand here. 00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:24.640 I can create demand outbound. 00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:26.640 I can create demand inbound. 00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:28.240 I can create demand. 00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:37.039 And so then as you're having these conversations with decision makers, with ideal clients, every one deal doesn't feel so urgent. 00:22:37.119 --> 00:23:01.359 It feels like, okay, I can give value to this organization, but with my free resources to start with this organization is in a pinch, or because they need to have this evaluation done, or they're have some fundraising that's coming up that they need the story to be developed around, or whatever the reason is, and be able to triage them on your own and versus feeling like you were just saying, I need this deal to have the cash flow. 00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:01.920 Yeah. 00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:02.480 Okay.

00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:25.359 So the other thing that I thought might be valuable to talk through before we talk about the incredible example that we're about to talk through is the thought process that you had around like yourself as a consultant and being an expert and a peer advisor to the executive director versus like a vendor or an extra pair of hands. 00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:33.599 Can you talk a little bit, Crystal, about how you shifted your mindset as into more of a peer mindset to those decision makers? 00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:34.240 Yes. 00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:35.839 And that was very tough. 00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:39.039 Again, because of the way that nonprofits operate. 00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:41.200 It is very, you know, people wear a lot of hats. 00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:43.599 You're sort of pulled into different directions. 00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:48.880 And so it's very easy to be sort of positioned as an employee. 00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:55.119 You know, I mean, I've even had in team meetings some executive directors refer to me as a contract employee. 00:23:55.359 --> 00:23:55.519 Yeah. 00:23:55.759 --> 00:23:57.599 And it's different than a consultant. 00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:09.039 And so, yeah, I had to work through that because again, part of letting them use that language and see me that way, I had this mentality that, well, that's not a big deal. 00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:15.359 It's not really harming anything because at the end of the day, I'm doing this work and I'm getting paid as a consultant, and that's really all I wanted. 00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:32.480 But where I was sort of running into challenges with that was then having, you know, people in leadership positions change the scope of work a little bit based on what they knew of evaluation or their assumptions, or saying, well, we kind of want it to look this way for whatever reason. 00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:40.559 And so I was sort of letting them sort of again take the lead on the work and determine how it would look. 00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:46.079 You know, obviously I don't let people just tell me what the results are of their evaluations because that's why I'm there. 00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:52.079 But just falling into that role of an employee and them saying, okay, well, no, now we want to do this and now we want to do that. 00:24:52.319 --> 00:25:02.000 So I really had to step back and then again look at how I communicate the type of work I do, communicate the way that I work with organizations. 00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:04.799 I'm very deliverables focused now. 00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:12.240 Whereas before I was sort of, you know, as I was like wading into full-time consultant territory, I just wanted to be helpful. 00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:14.480 So I was like, you know what, that's fine. 00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:21.359 I knew that I was sort of over-delivering and maybe doing too much, but I also knew that I was doing that. 00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:24.400 And I was like, my goal is to taper that off. 00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:24.720 Yeah. 00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:29.440 Once I get sort of my footing under me as I continue to build out this business. 00:25:29.519 --> 00:25:37.279 And so yeah, that was a mindset shift for sure, having to just be because I am an assertive, confident person. 00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:50.000 And so just being able to say, well, no, here's again the scope of work, and just defaulting back to that and saying, here's the deliverables, and you know, if that's going to change it, then the engagement's going to look a bit different. 00:25:50.160 --> 00:25:52.240 And that, yes, my support will end. 00:25:52.400 --> 00:25:59.599 So I always make sure that I'm building in things like sustainability planning or succession planning so that we don't hit the end. 00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:29.680 And I mean, I'm happy to continue the engagements, which does happen quite a bit, but I just want to have those conversations up front and then just keep that mindset for myself that if this is a one-year engagement, I want to achieve everything I said I would and meet those deliverables, regardless of whether or not I continue on with them, but leave them in a good place so that if I want to end the engagement as well, do other things, or maybe just we weren't aligned on something, that they still get value and it sort of doesn't just fall apart the second I leave. 00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:30.160 Yeah. 00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:41.839 And that's where removing myself as a quote employee and really, you know, continuing to reiterate that I am a consultant and I'm consulting. 00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:52.000 And yes, the expert piece was also challenging because when they would treat me like an employee, they were it almost felt like they were being dismissive of my expertise. 00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:52.480 Yeah. 00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:58.400 And admittedly, I would sometimes get a little bit salty feeling like, well, you called me for the help. 00:26:58.640 --> 00:27:13.519 You told me what the problems were, and you know, I've been doing this for over 18 years, and I'm telling you what I've seen and what I've done and what I know, and doing what's in the scope of work, and sometimes they were still feeling like they wanted to, you know, say, Well, no, it should be this way. 00:27:13.599 --> 00:27:56.079 And so there was sometimes those, I wouldn't say battles because there was never any sort of confrontation, but for me, I had feelings of just being like, How am I going to establish myself more as an expert and not to, you know, swoop in and tell everyone I know everything and don't don't challenge me on things, but really just positioning myself as, you know, I'm here to help, I'm bringing my expertise, I'm doing what I do best and doing what I know and willing to, you know, collaborate with the team, but also continuing to just sort of be that independent consultant and that independent expert that they were looking for when

they first reached out. 00:27:56.400 --> 00:27:57.359 Yeah, absolutely. 00:27:57.519 --> 00:27:58.960 And I think it starts for you. 00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:01.519 I noticed it started in the sales cycle, right? 00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:09.519 Where you were starting to step up as the leader in the sales cycle and the expert and the person recommending what needs to happen. 00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:32.240 And then that set the tone because of the different way you were looking at yourself versus letting them make those decisions and the way they were seeing you, and it all shifted from the you starting to look at yourself as that peer and that expert, setting that up in the sales cycle, and then them treating you so differently as a result in the engagements that you were landing. 00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:32.960 Right. 00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:33.920 Amazing. 00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:38.240 Okay, so so you were trialing and erroring. 00:28:38.319 --> 00:28:39.839 Sometimes it was frustrating. 00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:42.799 This was not like an easy journey, I would say. 00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:55.039 It was a frustrating journey at times, but then there would be these amazing glimmers of success as you were creating more and more leads and more conversations with decision makers. 00:28:55.279 --> 00:28:59.039 Sometimes they would get stuck in the friend zone, sometimes they would go to a contract. 00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:07.440 But then you uh came up with the idea that you're gonna share with us, which has been creating some amazing leads and contracts. 00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:20.960 And so walk us through how you decided I'm gonna shift a little bit from my webinar approach and training approach uh to this next strategy, and why you think this one is working so effectively. 00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:27.839 Yeah, so I really took some time to think about how to create inbound leads. 00:29:28.400 --> 00:29:28.640 Yeah. 00:29:28.880 --> 00:29:31.839 We had talked about that, you know, in our mastermind. 00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:38.079 Um, you've talked about it on other episodes of the podcast, and that's the dream for all of us is to have those inbound leads. 00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:46.480 And so I really took some time to just really dwell on how nonprofits approach work, approach funding. 00:29:46.640 --> 00:29:52.079 And what sort of came to me was that they're very used to applying for grants. 00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:55.920 They're very heavily grant funded and or through donors. 00:29:56.079 --> 00:30:02.319 And so they're very, they're very used to sort of like having to fill out an application to talk about what they need. 00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:10.799 And and looking also for where they can, I mean, get get some funding for free, essentially, or some support for free. 00:30:10.960 --> 00:30:16.079 And so there was like a number of things that sort of made me realize this idea. 00:30:16.240 --> 00:30:19.680 So looking at how they look for funding was the big one. 00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:29.440 But then also for myself, I was noticing that I still needed to do a lot more work to just develop my reputation and my network here in the US. 00:30:29.599 --> 00:30:36.720 And, you know, I was looking for conferences and and the times I was looking, I had like just missed a great one by like a month by the time I found it. 00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:42.720 So, you know, the next year I can go and trying to look for all these speaking engagements just to get out there and get in front of people. 00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:50.160 And there's certainly lots of opportunities, and I have some of them over the next, you know, year or so, but the timing was not working. 00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:55.200 So that was another piece, was just, you know, how can I get out there and get to know them. 00:30:55.440 --> 00:31:03.519 And another challenge, as I was posting things on LinkedIn, was that so some of my SROI evaluations I had done in Canada. 00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:07.680 Um, some organizations are okay with you sharing that information publicly and some aren't. 00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:10.400 So, you know, we discussed that at the time of a contract. 00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:24.319 And I was sort of running out of things to talk about on LinkedIn or, you know, for conferences or speaking engagements because I'd already talked about the projects that I had done that I was able to talk about. 00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:34.960 And so I realized I really needed to sort of develop a almost like a brand new body of work in the US and with US-based organizations just to have that regional context. 00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:43.920 And so I decided that I was going to give some of these SROIs away for free, which sounds very counterintuitive. 00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:53.920 And I did a lot of wrestling with it and and a lot of that thought work around making sure I wasn't giving it away for free because I felt like I couldn't charge for it. 00:31:54.160 --> 00:32:13.359 There's a big difference between I don't think people want this or it's not valuable, versus this is an opportunity for me to do some for free because not only does it benefit the organizations that would receive that work, but then I would have just a more of a portfolio in the US that I could then draw from. 00:32:13.839 --> 00:32:17.680 So I work with the University of Northern Colorado. 00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:23.759 I have a colleague there who runs this social research lab, and she has a number of students in this sociology department. 00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:30.480 And her and I have collaborated on a couple of other SROI projects for organizations that they're already working with. 00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:32.000 And so there's a keen interest. 00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:45.039 And so I was also thinking, you know, if I was to offer some of these for free, I can include those students because they can work on them at no cost, but then still have that learning opportunity of to do

some hands-on work. 00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:52.799 So then the idea was growing, and essentially where it got to was I created this initiative called Value Made Visible. 00:32:53.200 --> 00:33:02.160 And it's called that because when we we sometimes say that like the value of the work in these nonprofit sectors can be hard to see, right? 00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:10.160 It's like you know you're doing good work when you're, you know, helping someone, you know, who's going through a re-entry program, being decarcerated. 00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:16.240 We know on paper that that's a you know a good thing, but what does it truly look like and where's the value in that? 00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:21.200 And so I set it up this whole initiative almost like a grant process. 00:33:21.359 --> 00:33:35.599 So I I positioned it as nonprofits that are small to medium size, so less than$5 million operating budget, can apply to receive an SROI evaluation at no cost. 00:33:35.839 --> 00:33:38.079 And then it would be semester-based. 00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:44.079 So I did like a fall intake and a winter intake based on what the university students would have going on. 00:33:44.160 --> 00:33:47.839 So there would be two cohorts of students to work on them at those at that time. 00:33:48.319 --> 00:33:52.400 And then I built out, you know, a landing page on my website for it. 00:33:52.640 --> 00:34:03.119 I built out this big application online to ask, you know, a number of questions just around like what's your operating budget, who are your funders, which program do you want, why do you want this SROI? 00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:08.559 And so I I built it like that because they're so used to applying for things like that. 00:34:08.719 --> 00:34:14.719 That approach for them is like, oh, we apply for the thing and we get the money or the funding or the opportunity. 00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:20.880 And I knew that that would sort of draw them in and be something that's familiar for them. 00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:32.159 And so I I launched this in the middle of July and just started blasting it on LinkedIn, sharing it with, you know, people that I had met here, different foundations. 00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:36.400 And I just said, hey, you know, please share this with your grantees, see if they're interested. 00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:38.639 And the uptake was was huge. 00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:42.639 I mean, there was just applications coming in left, right, and center. 00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:46.000 I think I think there's about a hundred right now. 00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:49.840 So it actually closes today for the fall intake, and then we'll still do winter. 00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:54.559 And so, as part of that, I had all of these organizations applying. 00:34:54.880 --> 00:35:05.280 This was also going to help me grow an email list because then I was sort of getting the contact information from, you know, I sort of positioned it like the executive directors needed to apply. 00:35:05.519

--> 00:35:10.079 So then I've got this growing email list of people I can reach out to. 00:35:10.239 --> 00:35:14.960 And my mentality was, you know, I'm gonna give away three for each semester. 00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:19.760 That's what me and the students decided would be reasonable and just with my own capacity. 00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:22.159 So we'll do, we'll pick three. 00:35:22.400 --> 00:35:27.760 The ones that aren't chosen, then I could still reach out because they're sort of a warm audience at this point. 00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:29.519 I mean, they do want the SRY. 00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:43.760 And so I, you know, I I plan to reach out to the ones that aren't selected, but still, you know, offer them an opportunity to book a consultation with me on my calendar to see if it's something they still want to explore as a paid engagement. 00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:44.159 Yeah. 00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:51.920 And or if nothing else, you know, I can reach out to them and just start sharing the results of the SROIs that were selected. 00:35:52.000 --> 00:36:06.320 I in my future emails and newsletters, I can say, like, here's what was found, and still show them the value of this work and hopefully entice them to explore it, you know, with their with their own funding where they can apply for different intakes. 00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:32.159 And then in addition to this, where it has sort of really led to this unintended, well, it was shouldn't say that it was intentional, but I I didn't foresee this, was that some organizations emailed me directly with questions saying, um, just want to talk with you to see if we're a fit because like our funding structure is a bit different, or here our program isn't quite fitting based on what the information online says. 00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:48.320 And so I set up calls with them and ended up talking with, you know, three to four organizations who we just through our conversation, it was very clear that something bigger could could occur as far as a larger evaluation or something multi-phased. 00:36:48.800 --> 00:37:00.800 And so in the last month, I have secured over$250,000 worth of engagements with these organizations that weren't a fit for this small little SROI scope. 00:37:01.039 --> 00:37:07.599 Well, they will still have SROI, but it's just at like a larger national scale or more targeted for their programs. 00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:11.760 And so a lot of them were like, I love this methodology. 00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:13.280 We want to work with you. 00:37:13.519 --> 00:37:21.199 So once I sort of had them in the call and we're talking about what we could do for them and how it would add value, they were just sort of like, yes. 00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:23.360 The answers were just yes at every turn. 00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:24.559 It was crazy. 00:37:24.880 --> 00:37:32.960 It's so amazing, Crystal, because you essentially the pivot here that I see is the question you asked yourself. 00:37:33.199 --> 00:37:34.880

How do I create more inbound interest? 00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:46.800 Like you did so much work to get clarity around what it is, you you know, everything came back to I need to be more clear and specific around who my ideal client is and what I'm offering to them. 00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:51.679 And you landed on the SR S ROI as your foot in the door offer. 00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:56.719 I remember us having a conversation at one point, like you're you're committing to this for one year. 00:37:56.880 --> 00:37:58.960 Let's make this work, no matter what. 00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:05.760 And then you can always change, but getting yourself to the place, like figuring out how to get clients for SROI. 00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:06.880 Is that is that true? 00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:09.119 Was that am I remembering this correctly? 00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:09.599 Yes. 00:38:09.760 --> 00:38:10.719 And you were so right. 00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:14.719 And I'm just forever grateful to you because I love SROI. 00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:16.719 It is so valuable. 00:38:16.880 --> 00:38:21.360 It's it's one of the simplest evaluation approaches with the biggest impact. 00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:26.960 And so, you know, I'm not sure why I was still chasing other work. 00:38:27.039 --> 00:38:34.480 And you and I did agree that if other work came in that was inbound that wasn't SROI, I was still going to, you know, entertain that. 00:38:34.639 --> 00:38:47.519 But I was not going to actively go seeking, you know, other types of evaluation work or, you know, other types of research work, which some of that work has still, you know, been inbound for me over the last several months. 00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:54.960 And it's like with with just joy, I'm able to say, like, yes, 100%, or you know, I don't have capacity for that right now. 00:38:55.199 --> 00:38:59.920 Um, fortunately, I have a network of other consultants I could share work with and that. 00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:25.760 But yeah, just really deciding to sort of double down on this one thing and then build it out and and have that mindset of like, okay, this is this one initiative is doing so many things simultaneously for me as far as like building that that reputation, helping organizations with something, building an email, you know, list that I that I currently don't have. 00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:40.320 On top of that, in the application, I basically built into like the expectations around it of like this is free for you, but here's the expectation that that you need to, you know, adhere to based on just capacity I have. 00:39:40.400 --> 00:39:44.239 So things like they need to designate someone to pull all the data together for me. 00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:44.800 Right. 00:39:45.039 --> 00:39:57.519 They need somebody who can like, because it's a short, almost like sprint length SROI, I need somebody to like be available to me at least once a week where we can go back and forth and I can get what I need to do the work. 00:39:57.760 --> 00:40:07.840 The other thing I built in was that they have to introduce me to their funders, or we'll do like a joint presentation of the findings to their funders. 00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:19.199 So they have to set up that meeting with them when the SROI is done so that I can get in front of their funders this SROI because their funders are giving money to other similar programs. 00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:22.960 And so I want the funders to be aware of this methodology. 00:40:23.119 --> 00:40:23.360 Yeah. 00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:34.880 And so, you know, and I put in there that like they have to do a like two LinkedIn posts or social media posts talking about SROI and, you know, naming uncommon evaluation as the one that supported that. 00:40:34.960 --> 00:40:38.960 And, you know, I'll do the same and just talk about all the great stuff they're doing as well. 00:40:39.199 --> 00:40:54.719 So there was a way to also to continue to generate those inbound leads by making sure that like the dissemination process includes getting in front of the people that are making decisions about funding elsewhere for other similar programs. 00:40:54.960 --> 00:41:01.679 So it's sort of a multi-pronged approach that just seems to be working and there's just lots of interest around it. 00:41:01.840 --> 00:41:03.280 And so far, so good. 00:41:03.440 --> 00:41:04.480 Yeah, absolutely. 00:41:04.639 --> 00:41:05.360 I love that. 00:41:05.519 --> 00:41:29.599 Now, of course, not all the listeners uh live in this space, in the nonprofit space or even in the evaluation space, but there's so much that translates here in the sense, and that's why I was so excited when you agreed to come on the podcast because your willingness to experiment, your willingness to continue refining and adjusting until you figured out this is working for me. 00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:32.239 And it's working in a lot of different ways, right? 00:41:32.320 --> 00:42:08.719 What it's it's uh less common for consultants to give away work for free entirely, but you put so much scope around it that it's so much boundary around what this includes and thought through all the other benefits to your business, the case studies that you're acquiring, the the named clients that you're acquiring, the the benefit that to the students who are you're teaching as you go along with this process, and your ability to create this interest that then led to the other engagements that that are paid and the 250K and growing that you're landing. 00:42:08.960 --> 00:42:28.800 Um I think it's such an amazing example for all consultants to hear because that create that willingness to take action, to evaluate what you're doing, to figure out where your mindset might be off that was leading you slightly in the wrong direct, you know, in a not the wrong direction, but in a direction where you weren't getting the results that you were wanting. 00:42:29.039 --> 00:42:34.480 And also to look at the strategy to say, okay,

this, I still need to haven't quite put my finger on it. 00:42:34.639 --> 00:42:44.239 And to get to this point where you've got this recurring campaign process essentially built around the student semesters, I think is is so exciting. 00:42:44.559 --> 00:42:45.199 Well, thank you. 00:42:45.360 --> 00:43:05.519 Yes, and it's it really is it's important, I think, to it's shown me that it's important to look outside of your your sector or your industry because I remember when I started working with you, I had this mindset that, oh, well, I work with nonprofits and they don't have the same amount of money or same funding structures as corporate clients. 00:43:05.920 --> 00:43:22.000 And so I had a little bit of a limiting belief around what I could achieve in the nonprofit space because I was sort of like, well, they just don't have the money, or they're not as open to me kind of coming in with a foot-in-the-door offer and being sold to in the same way. 00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:29.199 And so I really had to relearn a number of things when it comes to like seeing my my business as a business. 00:43:29.360 --> 00:43:38.079 And, you know, yes, I work in the nonprofit space, but it's a large space and the fund, the funding structures look different for everyone. 00:43:38.239 --> 00:43:40.400 And, you know, they they do have money. 00:43:40.480 --> 00:43:42.159 I mean, they have operational budgets. 00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:44.800 And so really shifting my mindset that way. 00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:55.599 And, you know, with what I'm talking about today, I'm sure there's, yeah, people in the corporate sector that are I hope it gets people's wheels turning a little bit about can this be adapted? 00:43:55.760 --> 00:43:59.679 Could they learn from the nonprofit sector on how to take an approach? 00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:01.440 Into the corporate world. 00:44:01.679 --> 00:44:01.920 Right. 00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:13.519 And just sort of looking at where there's maybe some opportunity for overlap, because I think giving stuff away for free when it makes sense is so valuable. 00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:16.079 I mean, there's a reason why your podcast is free. 00:44:16.480 --> 00:44:16.719 Right. 00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:20.800 It adds so much value for so many people that even if they don't work with you, they're getting value. 00:44:20.960 --> 00:44:25.599 And and and like any podcast, I mean, people are giving information away for free. 00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:28.480 They're having resources online for free. 00:44:28.559 --> 00:44:48.320 And so I think it's it's it's a good idea to find a way to like offer something for free that makes sense to just show what you can do and give people that opportunity to work with you a little bit in like a low-risk situation, and then you build that relationship. 00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:51.360 And then all of a sudden you're the person they want to work with. 00:44:51.440 --> 00:45:04.079 And so I think if I can take from the corporate world and apply it to the nonprofit sector, I think I think that the nonprofit sector can also be sort of applied towards the corporate sector as well. 00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:05.760 Yeah, absolutely. 00:45:05.920 --> 00:45:07.840 And it doesn't always have to be free, right? 00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:17.519 It can be free and then like a low commitments, like the foot in the door offer that we work on in the sprint between 5K and 25K. 00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:36.079 Um, you're doing this in such a creative way that applies not only, I think, to your industry, to your um desire to also give back to the students and their learnings, um, but also create starts creating that trust with your ideal clients in a way that builds your reputation. 00:45:36.239 --> 00:45:36.480 Right. 00:45:36.639 --> 00:45:40.639 And um, like you said, it accomplishes multiple goals at one time. 00:45:41.039 --> 00:45:41.280 Yeah. 00:45:41.440 --> 00:45:50.320 Crystal, as you're thinking about the consultants who are listening to this and they've been experimenting and things aren't necessarily working quite yet. 00:45:50.480 --> 00:45:52.400 What advice would you give to them? 00:45:52.960 --> 00:45:59.679 I think you just have to be willing to try everything and and be realistic about the results you're seeing. 00:45:59.920 --> 00:46:07.119 There was times working with you where I was telling myself I was trying everything, but when I look at it objectively, I wasn't. 00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:07.840 Yeah. 00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:25.360 So I think, you know, just being very clear with yourself and and just being willing to, you know, feel the uncomfortable feelings around something that might be foreign to you, like, you know, a sales call or, you know, approaching a leader that you don't know and sort of trying to get in front of them. 00:46:25.599 --> 00:46:26.800 So I think that's the big thing. 00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:29.920 It's just trying different things and seeing what works. 00:46:30.079 --> 00:46:36.079 And really, I mean, the evaluator in me, you know, it's like I'm always evaluating sort of, is this working? 00:46:36.239 --> 00:46:40.320 I mean, I look at like, here's the activity that I'm doing, and then what's the outcome? 00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:43.840 And so I think just really stopping to assess what's working. 00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:47.360 And, you know, if something doesn't work the first time, it doesn't mean that it's not working. 00:46:47.440 --> 00:46:51.199 You might just need to tweak it a little bit, or the timing might not be right. 00:46:51.360 --> 00:46:54.159 You might need to have one step before that thing. 00:46:54.400 --> 00:47:15.360 So I really think it's just trial and error and and seeing what's working and just sometimes being willing to do something completely different, or doing that thing that you were avoiding doing, thinking, you know, I mean, for me again, I sort of was like had this mentality that, well, no, I need to help them apply

for grants and you can't just go in there asking for money. 00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:21.679 And then it's like, no, you need to go in there and sort of talk about what you have to offer and see if they have funding for that. 00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:26.800 So those were the big things I think was just really trying things, seeing what works. 00:47:26.880 --> 00:47:29.920 And some things weren't, you know, the speaking tour wasn't working for me. 00:47:30.159 --> 00:47:30.559 Right. 00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:31.199 That's right. 00:47:31.360 --> 00:47:33.199 And I don't I believe it can work. 00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:35.280 I think it's a phenomenal approach. 00:47:35.440 --> 00:47:41.679 And, you know, it might work for me in the future if I, you know, start to develop some different white papers on different things. 00:47:41.920 --> 00:47:51.679 And so I think it's again, it's that timing piece because now I've got an email list through this one initiative I've built that I've got email addresses. 00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:53.119 I can be like, hey, remember me? 00:47:53.199 --> 00:47:54.400 I'm writing a white paper. 00:47:54.559 --> 00:47:55.599 Could I talk to you about this? 00:47:55.840 --> 00:47:56.159 Yeah. 00:47:56.400 --> 00:47:57.199 Yeah, that's right. 00:47:57.599 --> 00:48:00.480 That could potentially still work for me at some point. 00:48:00.639 --> 00:48:02.559 It's just, is it the right time right now? 00:48:02.719 --> 00:48:09.920 Right now, I just really realized that I needed to build a reputation, build a body of work, and that's the priority. 00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:14.239 So I was trying all these other things that were sort of further down the spectrum. 00:48:14.480 --> 00:48:14.880 Yeah. 00:48:15.039 --> 00:48:18.400 As opposed to just being like, here's where I'm at right now in my business as well. 00:48:18.559 --> 00:48:20.559 My business is essentially brand new here. 00:48:20.639 --> 00:48:25.280 It's a it's a little baby of a business, so need to help it crawl before it can walk. 00:48:25.599 --> 00:48:26.079 Yeah. 00:48:26.400 --> 00:48:59.840 And I think, you know, taking away again, as the listeners are applying this to their own businesses, one of the things that I saw gel together for you, Crystal, is like this combination of you doing something that real that you love doing because we can all do something for a week or two, but as we keep doing something that isn't exactly aligned to the way we want to be operating, or isn't just the way we want to be running the business in the long run, it starts to become such a heavy lift. 00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:08.159 And so then at the same time, so we've got this like, is the method you've chosen something that you align with and feel like you could keep doing it? 00:49:08.400 --> 00:49:16.719 And then we've got, I think the combination that of that with the mindset, like, do you believe that what you're doing is actually going to work or not? 00:49:16.960 --> 00:49:26.480 And if you're sold on it, it's so much easier to sell, you know, quote unquote, I'm not using the word sell in the sense of selling something, but more of like being convinced of, right? 00:49:26.719 --> 00:49:28.639 Being convinced of this is going to work. 00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:32.000 And so then you approach things with so much more certainty. 00:49:32.239 --> 00:49:40.239 And the combination of those things really to me is what ultimately drives the whether something's going to work or not. 00:49:40.480 --> 00:49:57.519 And you kept being willing to experiment and feel frustrated and question whether this was going to work overall until you found those things that the the combination of those uh things that you're doing now that really have locked together to say, you know what, this is something I love doing. 00:49:57.679 --> 00:50:02.079 It doesn't feel like a heavy lift in the sense of it feels so valuable. 00:50:02.239 --> 00:50:10.880 And and you truly believe and have seen the results of the not that ultimately the results will come in a macro level. 00:50:11.039 --> 00:50:20.159 And like you've been talking about, the the 250k of engagements you've landed and also the the longer-term relationships you've built in the email list. 00:50:20.719 --> 00:50:21.760 Yep, 100%. 00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:26.880 I think you really nailed it talking about the at the valuable piece. 00:50:27.039 --> 00:50:39.519 So a lot of research work I've done in the past, I mean, I love research, but I was, you know, I would do a research report for a for a government on, you know, how to respond to human trafficking. 00:50:39.760 --> 00:50:44.159 Well, oftentimes that report wound up in like a shredder somewhere or on a shelf. 00:50:44.800 --> 00:50:47.360 Yeah, it wasn't very it wasn't actioned. 00:50:47.519 --> 00:50:57.360 And so I was really starting to, you know, I like the work, but I was I was getting frustrated about what was being done with my work afterwards. 00:50:57.519 --> 00:51:01.599 And it it went beyond, oh, well, I got paid, and so who cares what they do after that. 00:51:01.760 --> 00:51:11.440 I was like, no, this is like important to me, you know, in terms of my values, that like I'm doing this work because I do want it to make a difference. 00:51:11.679 --> 00:51:16.880 You know, I do want there to be better responses to human trafficking and child welfare and things like that. 00:51:17.199 --> 00:51:40.480 So with this, with this approach and like focusing on SROI, I'm I'm enjoying my business a lot more because it's an actionable evaluation that, you know, I'm already the projects I've done down here in the US, they're using them, they're posting about them on social media, not because I asked them to, because they're excited to talk about it. 00:51:40.639 --> 00:51:54.480 They're setting up meetings with their funders, they're telling everyone in town about what they're doing and you know, being able to say, like, look at we for our when you

invest in our program, the the impact is five times the amount of the investment. 00:51:54.559 --> 00:51:55.280 Like they love that. 00:51:55.440 --> 00:52:12.880 And so not only is this like great business-wise for me in terms of building that up, but I'm I'm feeling a lot happier about my business and like I'm I'm very like, I'm sort of loving my business again because it's just a lot more aligned with yeah, what I what I'm trying to achieve here. 00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:16.239 It's not just to, you know, make money and who cares what happens after that. 00:52:16.400 --> 00:52:19.679 Like I want, I want this to help these organizations. 00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:28.079 And, you know, even with traditional valuation types, you know, you do this big report, everyone gets those reports, they never know what to do with them. 00:52:28.480 --> 00:52:30.400 You know, it's like who does anything with it? 00:52:30.559 --> 00:52:33.920 The executive director, the program manager, the frontline staff. 00:52:34.079 --> 00:52:35.920 You can have all these recommendations. 00:52:36.159 --> 00:52:47.199 And unless they, you know, hire me or someone else to implement those recommendations, they might pick one or two and be like, okay, well, we just wanted to know if we're doing okay. 00:52:47.280 --> 00:52:51.440 Or it was a funding requirement to have an evaluation so we can check that box. 00:52:51.679 --> 00:52:58.239 But with SROI, the the thing that's making me the happiest is that I am seeing them actually do something with it. 00:52:58.880 --> 00:53:03.679 And even in the application for value made visible, I said, what do you want to do with this? 00:53:03.840 --> 00:53:07.679 Like, how will this help your organization and what will this mean to you? 00:53:07.920 --> 00:53:11.119 You know, it wasn't just me collecting data points on like what they have going on. 00:53:11.199 --> 00:53:21.840 It was really like, you know, and so that's how when I'm like looking through and making the decision about, you know, who will receive the SROIs, I really want to see sort of what they plan to do with it. 00:53:21.920 --> 00:53:24.079 Yeah, and how it's going to impact them. 00:53:24.239 --> 00:53:34.079 And so that does when you're doing that kind of work and you're enjoying the work and it's sort of fun, you're working with great people, it's just it's so much better when you're a business owner. 00:53:34.960 --> 00:53:36.880 You have work like that and clients like that. 00:53:36.960 --> 00:53:38.719 It just makes all the difference. 00:53:38.960 --> 00:53:40.079 It's so amazing. 00:53:40.320 --> 00:53:53.199 Crystal, if your game for it as we wrap up, are tell us the listeners, if they're deciding whether or not to join the lead gen sprint, which is the current way to work with me, what advice would you give them? 00:53:53.519 --> 00:53:54.880 Oh, just do it. 00:53:55.360 --> 00:53:58.800 It just does because it doesn't matter how much you think you know. 00:53:58.960 --> 00:54:01.440 There's there's so much opportunity for learning. 00:54:01.599 --> 00:54:12.639 And, you know, when you see the the chat areas and and somebody saying, I'm struggling with this, there's so many comments under that of, oh, I had that exact problem, but here's how I solved it. 00:54:12.800 --> 00:54:14.239 Or I'm having that problem too. 00:54:14.320 --> 00:54:16.320 And they're like, Melissa, please help us, you know. 00:54:16.400 --> 00:54:23.920 Like, so just having that network, I think, is so important because it can be lonely as an independent consultant. 00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:36.239 I mean, I found that, you know, I moved to the US on my own with my dogs and working for myself, it's like very easy to just sort of be in the house all day and and and not having people to bounce ideas off of. 00:54:36.480 --> 00:54:40.880 And so I think not only having that network, but just having ideas. 00:54:41.119 --> 00:54:46.400 I mean, working with you is where all the wheels started turning on this stuff. 00:54:46.559 --> 00:54:50.320 And when I look at what I've achieved now, it it seems so simple. 00:54:50.400 --> 00:54:55.119 And I'm sort of like, why wasn't this just just so clear to me based on what I know? 00:54:55.440 --> 00:55:07.039 But it was really that work and like getting ideas from other people and looking at, you know, somebody who's, you know, that does consulting work in like the accounting field. 00:55:07.280 --> 00:55:14.639 And I'm like, is there l anything that no matter how small that I can take from what they're doing and apply it to what I'm doing? 00:55:14.719 --> 00:55:17.360 And there was always something, always something. 00:55:17.519 --> 00:55:20.719 Or sometimes it was just shared tears, and you're like, you know what? 00:55:20.880 --> 00:55:26.239 It doesn't matter who you are, what sector you work in, some of these things will just make us all cry. 00:55:26.880 --> 00:55:37.840 But really, I think it's just the way to learn and just, you know, get to sort of cherry pick some ideas and and then really dwell on how you can apply that to your business. 00:55:37.920 --> 00:55:39.119 That's exciting to me. 00:55:39.360 --> 00:55:39.760 Yeah. 00:55:40.079 --> 00:55:41.440 The heart of consulting, right? 00:55:41.599 --> 00:55:42.000 Oh, yeah. 00:55:42.239 --> 00:55:42.559 Amazing. 00:55:42.719 --> 00:55:47.039 Well, as we're wrapping up, anything else that we didn't cover that you wanted to share? 00:55:47.360 --> 00:55:48.559 No, I think that's it. 00:55:48.639 --> 00:55:58.239 I just uh hope this can, like I said, help someone else come up with an idea or you know, think about how they think about their work and how they approach their work. 00:55:58.320 --> 00:56:04.639 And I just think it's so valuable for all of us to hear each other's stories and just it is a form of support. 00:56:04.880 --> 00:56:10.400 You know, even if it's not 100% applicable all the time, it's just nice to hear what other people are doing. 00:56:10.480 --> 00:56:21.119 And I think we all root for each other as independent consultants, and so it's it's fun to share our stories and just cheer each other on, even if it's just by listening to your podcast. 00:56:21.440 --> 00:56:21.840 Yes. 00:56:22.159 --> 00:56:24.000 Well, thank you for being here, Crystal. 00:56:24.159 --> 00:56:30.320 We're definitely rooting for you and excited to see what you've decided to do inspires in other people as well. 00:56:30.480 --> 00:56:32.000 So thank you for being here. 00:56:32.239 --> 00:56:33.280 Thank you for having me. 00:56:35.599 --> 00:56:41.039 Thanks for joining me this week on the Grow Your Independent Consulting Business Podcast. 00:56:41.280 --> 00:56:45.360 If you like today's episode, I have three quick next steps for you. 00:56:45.519 --> 00:56:52.320 First, click subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to make sure you don't miss future episodes. 00:56:52.639 --> 00:56:59.039 Next, leave me a review in your podcast app so other independent consultants can find and benefit too. 00:56:59.199 --> 00:57:14.639 And finally, to put the ideas from today's episode into action, head over to Melissa Lieberman.com for the show notes and more resources to help you grow your consulting practice from your first few projects into a full fledged business. 00:57:14.880 --> 00:57:16.480 See you next week.