Pełna transkrypcja odcinka Addiction Pulled Him Into the Heart of Mexico’s Cartel Country

eight rehabilitation programs, crossed international borders chasing an escape that never came, and at his lowest point, found himself living alongside the Sinaloa Cartel in Mexico. 00:02:33.716 --> 00:02:41.126 It was there that Austin had a near-death experience he never saw coming, and it became a turning point that changed everything. 00:02:41.515 --> 00:02:44.776 Today, he's a business owner, a husband, a father of five. 00:02:44.915 --> 00:02:54.096 He's also an author of a memoir called One Last Hit, sharing the raw story of how he got from that place to where he is now. 00:02:54.626 --> 00:02:58.325 This is a conversation about hitting bottom and finding a way back. 00:02:58.616 --> 00:03:00.605 Let's get into it with Austin Rampt. 00:03:00.665 --> 00:03:02.276 Thank you so much for being here. 00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:03.900 Angela, it's a pleasure. 00:03:03.909 --> 00:03:06.692 Thank you so much for having me on What a story. 00:03:06.741 --> 00:03:08.741 I, I can't wait to hear more about it. 00:03:09.262 --> 00:03:13.651 Let's start off a little bit, Austin, with your, your early years, your background. 00:03:13.901 --> 00:03:15.741 What was your age of first use? 00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:21.680 Yeah, so my age at first use was o- uh, so I was, I was just turning 13. 00:03:21.819 --> 00:03:23.580 I, I was 12 to 13 that summer. 00:03:23.800 --> 00:03:27.210 And I'll tell you, Angela, if I'm being honest, I think I held out as long as I could. 00:03:27.530 --> 00:03:33.560 Like, I was just a ball of, of anxiety and shame and nerves up until that point. 00:03:33.560 --> 00:03:42.629 I had terrible, uh, neurological tics, so like my body would twitch, and I would make weird noises, and it would, it would happen completely involuntarily. 00:03:42.740 --> 00:03:44.639 Uh, and the, the kids were just brutal. 00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:50.689 So when I took that first drink, it was like, it was like the first time I took a deep breath, you know? 00:03:50.689 --> 00:03:57.110 It was just like, "Wow, this is everything I've ever been looking for," and it spiraled very quickly That, that makes sense to me. 00:03:57.110 --> 00:03:58.030 Makes a lot of sense. 00:03:58.030 --> 00:04:04.810 Like, that solved your problems in the moment, and those neurological things may have just been something that you had that was genetic. 00:04:04.900 --> 00:04:08.360 W- were there other traumas that caused anxiety for you as a kid? 00:04:09.008 --> 00:04:31.458 You know, strangely, there were some things that happened when I was like two that I had no memory of, and they weren't trauma directly on me, but my uncle, who had since passed away, he, he was dealing drugs and sold a bad batch to somebody, and apparently some guys broke into his house and kidnapped his wife and murdered her, and this was all going on, like my family was involved in the trial. 00:04:31.927 --> 00:04:36.637 And their solution, my family's solution to that was not therapy or anything back in the

early '80s. 00:04:36.648 --> 00:04:38.557 It was, you know, drink, right? 00:04:38.877 --> 00:04:54.519 And so that's kind of the energy that was going on in my household from a very early age Well, there's no doubt that young children can pick up on feelings and energy and just the, what, what's going on around them, even if they can't verbalize it or even process it correctly. 00:04:54.519 --> 00:05:01.680 So, it's so interesting to me the, the combination of environment, genetics, all of these things. 00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:07.730 It's almost like the perfect storm, and it definitely in your case was the perfect storm to set you up for substance use disorder. 00:05:08.377 --> 00:05:08.827 Completely. 00:05:08.827 --> 00:05:11.598 I have a lot of alcoholism and addiction in my family. 00:05:11.627 --> 00:05:14.858 I have no recovery in my family with the exception of me. 00:05:15.314 --> 00:05:18.687 Oh, so, you know… And that kind of plays into the story too. 00:05:18.687 --> 00:05:21.208 Like, my parents didn't know what to do with me , you know? 00:05:21.848 --> 00:05:24.877 I mean, I, I was smoking crack before I was out of high school. 00:05:24.908 --> 00:05:26.567 Like, it was that fast. 00:05:26.668 --> 00:05:27.017 Yeah. 00:05:27.105 --> 00:05:27.596 Wow. 00:05:27.947 --> 00:05:39.615 quick I'm, I'm almost shocked you're here because I, I mentioned in the intro, uh, to this podcast that you had gone through re- rehabilitation eight times, and you talk about smoking crack before you graduated from high school. 00:05:39.935 --> 00:05:44.689 I'm shocked you're here talking to me today I'm, I'm equally as shocked, maybe more. 00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:49.470 Uh, I didn't think, you know, when you're in your 20s, you always think, "Oh, your 40s are, you're so old," right? 00:05:49.470 --> 00:05:52.009 But, uh, I didn't think I would still be here. 00:05:52.009 --> 00:05:55.579 And h- honestly, for many years of my life, I intended not to. 00:05:55.800 --> 00:06:01.704 My goal was not to survive that Tell me more about that, why you were thinking that way. 00:06:02.434 --> 00:06:03.324 know, what was going on? 00:06:03.949 --> 00:06:04.389 Sure. 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:08.420 So I had had a period of sobriety through pretty much my entire 20s. 00:06:08.439 --> 00:06:11.490 I got sober at 22, and when I picked up again, I was 31. 00:06:12.350 --> 00:06:24.769 And, you know, I, I got sober in 12-step recovery rooms, um, had done some of the work, but I think I was still really running from that hole in my soul, that belief that if I achieve, I'm somehow worthy. 00:06:25.129 --> 00:06:26.350 And, and I did. 00:06:26.350 --> 00:06:37.089 I achieved a lot in sobriety, got married, had a couple kids, had a very successful business, and stopped being honest, stopped connecting with the people in my recovery circle, and, and slowly but surely, that beast came back. 00:06:37.089 --> 00:06:44.509 And when I relapsed again, it wasn't like-- I- it was like I

had progressed another nine years in my addiction. 00:06:44.519 --> 00:06:45.529 It was horrendous. 00:06:45.550 --> 00:06:48.610 And, uh, you know, had resources at this point. 00:06:48.620 --> 00:07:00.319 And what ended up happening is I got Marchman acted here, which is a thing in the state of Florida, where if you're using to the degree that you're gonna kill yourself, they can get the courts involved, and I think there's, there's similar things in different states. 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:10.060 And so the cops busted in on me in a hotel room in Fort Lauderdale, took me to detox, and the judge probated me to go to rehab at this time, but I wasn't done. 00:07:10.060 --> 00:07:11.250 I still had a full bank account. 00:07:11.689 --> 00:07:17.319 And, uh, and so I went to rehab for a few days, grabbed my stuff, and hopped on a plane to Mexico. 00:07:17.670 --> 00:07:22.589 Um, it had a warrant out for me because, you know, what I had done was against the judge's orders. 00:07:23.110 --> 00:07:27.350 And as soon as I got to Mexico, and, and just to kinda paint the, the picture here, right? 00:07:27.350 --> 00:07:33.589 I'd had a, a wife who is an ex-wife now, um, but two beautiful little children back in the United States who were three and one. 00:07:34.029 --> 00:07:41.790 And the way that it felt in my body, like when the-- when I start using, I don't have much control over the amount that I'm going to use. 00:07:41.790 --> 00:07:45.240 I'm just gonna go, go, go, and that's pretty characteristic of a lot of addicts. 00:07:45.709 --> 00:07:48.579 And if-- what the-- No stopgap. 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:50.540 You No stopgap, right. 00:07:51.129 --> 00:07:51.709 Exactly. 00:07:51.720 --> 00:08:00.420 And kind of internally, the way that that feels, I remember being a child, everyone in Florida has pools, and I would go hang out with these older kids, and we'd swim in their pools. 00:08:00.420 --> 00:08:11.449 And inevitably, what they would do at some point is they would hold my head underwater, and that panic of like,"I, I've gotta get another breath," is very similar to the way that it feels when I've gotta get more drugs. 00:08:11.490 --> 00:08:14.279 Like it's a real weird brain thing. 00:08:14.800 --> 00:08:17.230 And That's so in Austin. 00:08:17.230 --> 00:08:24.449 I've never heard it put that way, but it helps me, someone who doesn't suffer from substance use disorder, somebody who can have a glass of wine and not want any more or whatever. 00:08:24.769 --> 00:08:33.385 Um, it, I, I've spent so many years trying to truly understand it, but that's a really interesting way to put it Sure. 00:08:33.385 --> 00:08:43.836 Uh, uh, I think, I think it's a fairly kind of accurate statement even though com- like from the outside you look in and, and you go,"That is insanity." Like, why would anyone choose to destroy their life in that way? 00:08:43.868 --> 00:08:49.246 Right Are you ready to protect the next generation from the dangers of substance use? 00:08:49.797 --> 00:09:01.027 Emily's Hope has created a comprehensive K through 12 substance use prevention curriculum designed to educate, empower, and equip students with the tools they need to make healthy choices. 00:09:01.596 --> 00:09:13.787 Our age appropriate lessons start in kindergarten and build through high school using science, real stories, and interactive learning to help kids understand their bodies, brains, and risk of drug use. 00:09:14.317 --> 00:09:19.116 We're already reaching thousands of students across multiple states, and we're just getting started. 00:09:19.506 --> 00:09:26.047 Visit emilyshopeedu.org to learn more, and share our curriculum with your school administrators and counselors. 00:09:26.506 --> 00:09:30.246 At Emily's Hope, we believe prevention begins with education. 00:09:30.366 --> 00:09:32.767 Let's work together to keep our kids safe. 00:09:41.883 --> 00:09:46.293 And so I'm in Mexico, and I get down there, and I'm buying drugs the way that I buy drugs. 00:09:46.293 --> 00:09:56.763 And, and I land in Cancun, and Cancun's an interesting place in that it's the number one tourist destination in Mexico, and top to bottom it's run by the Sinaloa Cartel. 00:09:56.903 --> 00:10:02.783 You can't be a cop, taxi driver, anything in that city unless you're somehow adjacent and approved by the cartel. 00:10:03.273 --> 00:10:10.342 And so I get there, and I start buying, and they immediately identify me as somebody who they're gonna make sure I've got everything I want. 00:10:10.712 --> 00:10:17.243 And so, you know, they're putting me up in their hotels, eventually one of their condos, um, gave me a handler. 00:10:17.243 --> 00:10:22.572 And, and after a few months, what ended up happening is I was surrounded by nobody who wasn't in the cartel. 00:10:22.633 --> 00:10:24.423 Like, that was everybody I was partying with. 00:10:25.023 --> 00:10:31.552 Um, when you mentioned the near-death experience, so I had a, couple of overdoses, which I think would qualify there. 00:10:31.552 --> 00:10:35.643 But the one that, that happened in Mexico-- Well, there were two. 00:10:36.013 --> 00:10:47.903 Uh, there was one morning I woke up about 5:30 in the morning in my condo face down on the ground in a giant pool of blood, and my throat had been cut. 00:10:48.743 --> 00:10:53.932 And to this day, I don't know if it was cut by a person, or a beer bottle, or what. 00:10:54.394 --> 00:10:57.173 You have no uh-uh. 00:10:57.623 --> 00:10:59.643 But I would sleep only once every three days. 00:10:59.842 --> 00:11:03.373 Uh, that was kind of my trajectory of when my, my body would give out. 00:11:03.863 --> 00:11:08.062 And, uh, when I saw all that blood, it didn't, like, jog me up. 00:11:08.232 --> 00:11:13.753 I crawled into bed and slept for another three hours afterwards, like not even concerned whether or not I was going to die. 00:11:14.513 --> 00:11:22.602 And on another occasion, I was-- There's a little island

off the coast of Cancun called, uh, Isla Mujeres, which is, you know, just this, a cute little beach island. 00:11:23.113 --> 00:11:27.123 And I was there, and I had a handler, right? 00:11:27.143 --> 00:11:28.783 Kind of the guy that was my go-between. 00:11:29.222 --> 00:11:38.167 And he showed up, and he had-- pictures of me, um, with a message that said,"Hey, there's, there's this gringo that's spending a lot of money over on the island. 00:11:38.256 --> 00:11:43.027 Let's go get him." Uh, and, and that was, like, a mad dash for me to get out of there, right? 00:11:43.027 --> 00:11:44.697 So it was-- they were coming to kidnap me. 00:11:45.017 --> 00:11:47.537 Um, and I think I made it out just barely in time. 00:11:48.106 --> 00:11:50.856 You escaped a, maybe a near kidnapping. 00:11:51.447 --> 00:11:52.366 Yeah you? 00:11:52.376 --> 00:11:54.287 Just to hold you for ransom to get more money? 00:11:54.836 --> 00:11:55.267 Right. 00:11:55.277 --> 00:11:59.626 A-and, and honestly, looking back, I'm really surprised that didn't happen, like, sooner. 00:12:00.277 --> 00:12:02.687 You know, I mean, their whole, their whole business there is drugs. 00:12:02.996 --> 00:12:11.057 But if you've got somebody who, you know, if you're gonna spend money on drugs over a number of, let's say, months or years, it's a lot quicker to just kidnap somebody and take all their money. 00:12:11.447 --> 00:12:36.173 Uh, but Cancun, interestingly enough, because it's the number one tourist destination, it's really frowned upon to do anything to Americans that might give it, tarnish its name, because that'll hit the news wires and, and, you know, it's gonna slow down tourism, and that's worth more that when, uh, some tourists were killed a few years ago, and people were really afraid to go to Mexico, go to Cancun, as maybe they always should be, but Yeah, yeah you know, my opinion. 00:12:36.173 --> 00:12:37.852 I've got a lot of opinions about the cartels. 00:12:37.852 --> 00:12:46.783 But, um, y- yeah, I can totally see that, what you're talking about Yeah, and so I'm going through, you know, no exaggeration, about a kilo every couple of months. 00:12:47.043 --> 00:12:51.903 I got to drink and use the way that I always, you know, I got to ruin my life in the way that I'd always dreamed. 00:12:52.202 --> 00:13:07.812 And, uh, and and it still wasn't enough, and it, it ends with me being homeless in Mexico City living with a girl and her mom in what we would consider projects and poverty here in the United States, but it was just kinda how they were living in Mexico City. 00:13:07.812 --> 00:13:20.712 And, and what I encountered were, were two of the happiest, kindest, most loving people I had ever met in my life, and they had none of the things that I thought I needed to strive for to attain that happiness and that worthiness. 00:13:21.062 --> 00:13:31.359 Um, they had found it in actually, you know, what actually gives happiness and worthiness, which is, you know, something that comes from the heart So these were not drug users, this, this No. 00:13:31.808 --> 00:13:32.109 Mm-mm. 00:13:32.517 --> 00:13:33.407 and how did you meet them? 00:13:33.407 --> 00:13:34.712 Just met them Yeah. 00:13:34.942 --> 00:13:37.903 No, so I was… So we would fly to Mexico City. 00:13:37.942 --> 00:13:44.883 Um, one of the guys who I had become close to had family in Mexico City, and we would go there and party and, you know, then fly back to Cancun. 00:13:45.302 --> 00:13:52.413 And on one of those trips, I met her, and for some reason she just loved me, and I was in bad shape the entire time. 00:13:52.852 --> 00:14:01.092 And on one of our trips, I had, I had bribed a Mexican official to give me Mexican credentials, so I had become a Mexican citizen, for lack of a better term. 00:14:01.523 --> 00:14:02.682 Um, not a real one. 00:14:02.972 --> 00:14:06.913 But I couldn't get back to Cancun because I had had my wallet stolen while I was there. 00:14:06.913 --> 00:14:09.602 And so the only people I knew in Mexico City were this girl. 00:14:09.722 --> 00:14:17.663 And, uh, and I called her and she said, "You come live with me and my mom. We'll, we'll take care of you." And, uh, and obviously that relationship fizzled out over time. 00:14:17.663 --> 00:14:19.852 It wasn't, you know… It was very unhealthy. 00:14:19.852 --> 00:14:23.352 She was probably a raging codependent, and I was a drug addict. 00:14:23.732 --> 00:14:25.732 Um, but it taught me something. 00:14:25.732 --> 00:14:36.427 It taught me a really important lesson that I don't think I could have learned at any other point in my journey had I still had the resources, had I still been striving after all those things I was looking for What did it teach you? 00:14:36.437 --> 00:14:50.389 Just that you don't need all these things or these outside things, even maybe substances to be happy Yeah, I, it didn't, it didn't stop me from using, but it was… And it wasn't a demonstration in real time, it was a demonstration in retrospect. 00:14:50.389 --> 00:15:10.009 When I look back on it and I say, "Okay, I had these two people who had never even probably held $1,000 in their life, and but they were living at a level of peace and contentment that I had always strived for my whole life, that I couldn't find when I had a company making millions." You know? 00:15:10.009 --> 00:15:10.889 That was the example. 00:15:11.078 --> 00:15:14.697 Yeah and did you have your near-death experience while you were in Mexico? 00:15:16.254 --> 00:15:18.105 Uh, so I had, I had a coup- right? 00:15:18.105 --> 00:15:19.315 One was getting the throat cut. 00:15:19.749 --> 00:15:25.184 Right and then, but really the one that was closest to death was an overdose when I was 21. 00:15:25.184 --> 00:15:31.414 Um, so I was… So I had been taking a lot of methadone, uh, Xanax, and crack. 00:15:31.764 --> 00:15:35.715 And in the middle of hitting the crack pipe, my heart stopped. 00:15:36.174 --> 00:15:43.674

And I didn't show up for work, uh, and my manager called my mom, and she came to where I was living and pried the door open with a crowbar. 00:15:44.095 --> 00:15:45.504 And I have no memory of any of this. 00:15:45.534 --> 00:15:48.914 I woke up on day something in the ICU. 00:15:48.914 --> 00:15:50.325 I had spent an entire week there. 00:15:50.325 --> 00:15:59.245 I just woke up with tubes coming out of me, and I didn't know, I didn't know what was going on until I went back to my place and I saw the leads from the, the paramedics and everything. 00:15:59.654 --> 00:16:11.705 Um, and that was drug-induced, so I didn't have… You know, I've done a lot of, of… You know, I'm very curious about near-death experiences, and I didn't have the near-death experience where you go towards the light and you feel the love and the ego kind of drops away, right? 00:16:11.985 --> 00:16:21.404 But, but what I did get from each of these experiences in r- is in retrospect realizing that life is fragile and that there are things that are important. 00:16:21.774 --> 00:16:27.831 Um, and, and quite honestly, I wasn't striving for any of them at the time Life is extremely fragile. 00:16:27.831 --> 00:16:40.841 That's why it amazes me that you're here Yeah lost someone… And, and I am also interested in those near-death experiences 'cause we just wanna know what ha- when you lose a child, you just wanna know what happens after we die. 00:16:40.850 --> 00:16:46.980 And many people have faith and believe that they know what happens, but I say none of us really know, right? 00:16:47.890 --> 00:16:49.650 we get there, until that happens to us. 00:16:49.650 --> 00:16:54.990 But so you had these, the, the, the early-on near-death experience, then the one in Mexico. 00:16:55.270 --> 00:16:58.301 You're still, you know, going hard in Mexico at this time. 00:16:58.321 --> 00:16:59.971 What, about what year would that have been? 00:17:00.663 --> 00:17:08.002 So that was in, I went to Mexico in 2014, early 2014, and, uh, it was late 2015 when I came back. 00:17:08.333 --> 00:17:11.833 So it was about 22 months, somewhere in there What brought you home? 00:17:13.323 --> 00:17:15.192 What brought me home is I ran out of options. 00:17:15.272 --> 00:17:29.952 Uh, the-- my final night in Mexico was I, I had broken up with a girl, and I was living with my drug dealer, Juanito, uh, in, in this little city called Coacalco, which is on the outskirts of Mexico City. 00:17:30.442 --> 00:17:36.462 And, and this is kinda… I- it sounds funny to tell this story, but, but he thought I disrespected his dog. 00:17:36.942 --> 00:17:42.873 Um, and so for the last three hours of the night was me sitting on a couch and him pointing a gun at me. 00:17:43.232 --> 00:17:50.992 Uh, we're both hammered, and I'm unsure of whether or not he's going to shoot me for disrespecting his dog or if we're gonna get through this. 00:17:51.012 --> 00:17:52.272 Eventually, we got through that. 00:17:52.613 --> 00:18:04.462 Um, but that was a real-- That was like, "Okay, it's-- We're done here. We gotta get outta, outta dodge." And so I had a friend who was sober back in the United States who, you know, sent me a Western Union, and I was able to hop on a plane and come back. 00:18:04.803 --> 00:18:10.502 And, but that was, that was the end of it And when you got back home what happened then? 00:18:11.863 --> 00:18:24.942 So I got back home and I, you know, because I'd had so long in recovery prior, I had-- I was living under this delusion that I could just kind of slide back in, no harm, no foul, work the steps and, and all's going to be well. 00:18:24.942 --> 00:18:36.792 But I was oblivious to the trauma mainly that I had caused other people, but also what I had done to my own brain and I, I just was living in a world that I wasn't seeing reality any longer. 00:18:37.232 --> 00:18:54.252 And I came back, started working in a business that started, you know, making a, a good chunk of money and I proceeded to relapse and then overdose on fentanyl in a hotel room, um, in March of, of 2017 and that was, that was kind of the final bounce when I went to treatment right after that. 00:18:54.252 --> 00:18:55.792 And some things started to shift. 00:18:56.063 --> 00:19:03.113 Like I met a, a, a-- There was a number of things that happened in there, but one of the big ones was, you know, my therapist kind of had me pegged from jump. 00:19:03.232 --> 00:19:12.623 I was the sort of guy, and I'm sure you've encountered these, that refuses to show you a real emotion, completely ingenuine, a mask i- at every turn. 00:19:12.952 --> 00:19:16.782 You know, probably narcissistic type behavior traits. 00:19:17.522 --> 00:19:32.593 And she had me pegged and I remember her coming into the, the group room one day and she put a, a picture of her little baby girl up on the wall who was about 18 months and her question to me was, "What does this little girl have to do to deserve love?" And of course the answer was nothing, right? 00:19:32.593 --> 00:19:33.373 It's, it's a baby. 00:19:34.192 --> 00:19:47.282 And she made the very strong argument that the only difference between me and that little girl was an idea and that I was the only one that had that idea and that that idea from young age was the thing that was preventing me from finding happiness in the world. 00:19:47.712 --> 00:20:00.932 And you know, that, that experience in and of itself didn't like transform me in any way but, but it was something that I held onto for a while and I started, I started testing the courage of what it meant to be a genuine person. 00:20:00.932 --> 00:20:02.573 Like when you're scared, say you're scared. 00:20:02.613 --> 00:20:05.803 When you know, you don't know what's going on, say you don't know what's going on. 00:20:06.163 --> 00:20:06.762 That sort of thing. 00:20:07.454 --> 00:20:22.664 So really, you believe the root of all addiction is, is, is in a way a cover-up, a cover-up to

mask feelings that you don't wanna deal with, to mask insecurities and different things, and then it becomes a disease once you're using, obviously. 00:20:22.664 --> 00:20:25.325 I mean, obviously you can't just stop or you would've. 00:20:25.724 --> 00:20:33.535 Um, it's so interesting to me how complex psychologically substance use disorder really is It is. 00:20:33.654 --> 00:20:50.055 Um, I, I don't wanna generalize it and say that all addiction is that way, but I will tell you that in my case, when I f- you know, it could be I talked to, almost everybody I talked to said once they tried, whether, whether it be marijuana or alcohol, usually that's the first thing that they, you try at a young age. 00:20:50.414 --> 00:21:05.914 Once they tried that, they sort of found their answer, what they've been looking for all their lives, because there was something that just about them that didn't seem to fit, or their life just didn't seem to be what they wanted it to be, or they felt a deep insecurity. 00:21:05.914 --> 00:21:07.255 So I don't know. 00:21:07.255 --> 00:21:10.545 I think there was a common thread I think there might be. 00:21:10.545 --> 00:21:22.116 Carl Jung had an interesting take on this when he talks-- he, he talked about addiction kind of being an outsized yearning for spirituality, for, like, the divine, An empty and right? 00:21:22.116 --> 00:21:23.204 An an empty hole. 00:21:23.217 --> 00:21:23.507 fill. 00:21:24.095 --> 00:21:24.424 Right. 00:21:24.424 --> 00:21:27.125 A-and drugs and alcohol really do feel like that, you know? 00:21:27.464 --> 00:21:30.105 And that's why 12-step programs can be so effective. 00:21:30.174 --> 00:21:42.204 I mean, I, I, I do think, like, when it comes to treatment, um, we really need to, um, use medically assisted treatment where appropriate and incorporate 12 steps or whatever it might be where appropriate. 00:21:42.525 --> 00:21:53.923 Um, I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all for recovery, but I think that that's, that's where the 12 steps have been successful in, in that spiritual gap Sure. 00:21:53.982 --> 00:22:18.596 And, and you know, the interesting thing is, like, whether or not we can prove it's the spirituality or whether or not it's the inventory and the setting right the harms that we've done in the past or, or just the day-to-day way that we're supposed to live as a sober member of a 12-step recovery group, I don't know which one of those is the silver bullet, but I think the combination of them all seems to work really well for a guy like me And then you mentioned in 2017 that your brain was messed up. 00:22:18.606 --> 00:22:21.076 Like, you, you weren't even thinking correctly. 00:22:21.557 --> 00:22:31.596 And I wonder if there was a point where you had that self-realization of your brain healing, and was, w- was, when was the last time that you used? 00:22:32.247 --> 00:22:32.537 Yeah. 00:22:32.537 --> 00:22:38.116 So I had a Kratom relapse, um, and so my sobriety date is, uh, 3/23/24. 00:22:38.116 --> 00:22:49.363 So I have a little over two years sober at this point before that, you had gotten into recovery and then you used Oh, yeah everyone thinks is fine, it's legal, it's sold in gas stations. 00:22:49.363 --> 00:22:57.962 I've, I've done a series of investigative reports of, of the harms that Kratom can do, of people who've died from Kratom, and I know they have a big, huge lobby. 00:22:58.313 --> 00:23:01.409 Um, they'll come after you when you, when you start Yeah, I'm sure. 00:23:01.413 --> 00:23:02.833 something negative about Kratom. 00:23:03.133 --> 00:23:13.540 Um, but i-i- just because it's legal, just because you can get it in a vape shop or wherever, doesn't mean that it's, that it's not addictive and that it's good for you Severely addictive. 00:23:13.540 --> 00:23:18.221 In fact, it binds to the, the opiate receptors almost stronger than traditional opiates. 00:23:18.221 --> 00:23:20.560 It's, it's absolut- the, the detox was terrible. 00:23:21.201 --> 00:23:26.171 Oh, tell me about Very, very tell me a little bit about your experience with Kratom Sure. 00:23:26.181 --> 00:23:28.631 So, you know, there's a lot of different Kratom products, right? 00:23:28.631 --> 00:23:38.310 There's just the regular leaf Kratom, and then you get into the extracts, and then you get into the, the new ones, which I haven't tried, but they're the 7-OH ones, which are really like, woo, those'll get people. 00:23:38.961 --> 00:23:42.641 But I, I, I went down the path of the extracts, and it was like, wow. 00:23:42.681 --> 00:23:49.711 You know, and the way that my mind went is, you know, I'm a number of years sober right now, I'm struggling, I'm not connected with people. 00:23:50.230 --> 00:23:57.851 A- and, and one thing that's characteristic of addicts is w- we will have trouble discerning the true from the false at some point. 00:23:57.861 --> 00:24:03.461 We'll, we'll see an event or we'll feel something, and we'll, we'll live in the emotion as opposed to the facts about the event. 00:24:04.050 --> 00:24:14.361 And so what the emotion said was, it's going to be less painful to take this pill than it will be to deal with what you're dealing with, um, you know, kind of underneath it. 00:24:14.361 --> 00:24:19.371 And so I started taking these, uh, they're called OPMS gold Kratoms. 00:24:19.760 --> 00:24:20.480 And they're strong. 00:24:20.490 --> 00:24:22.351 Like, make no mistake about it, they're quite strong. 00:24:22.800 --> 00:24:26.111 And, and after a couple of months, I wasn't even getting a buzz anymore. 00:24:26.141 --> 00:24:30.080 It was literally taking them to just kind of function. 00:24:30.401 --> 00:24:40.570 And by, you know, and once that thing got active in my brain, you know, thankfully I didn't go down the cocaine route, but, but I could have had I, had it not stopped, you know? 00:24:40.570 --> 00:24:41.861 I very well could have. 00:24:42.161 --> 00:24:44.471 And, uh, that would have

blown up my entire life again. 00:24:44.560 --> 00:24:46.171 Luckily, at this point, it didn't. 00:24:46.181 --> 00:25:03.576 But, but still, it, it was a, it was an emotional bottom that I think in some ways was a lot more impactful than the physical bottom So interesting, um, how many times you had these bottoms and yet in some way, c- and went back to use. 00:25:03.626 --> 00:25:18.480 Um, and I just think that's hard for people to understand because I think people want to think, oh, someone is using, someone is, um, going to get into recovery, and everything is gonna be sunny skies and okay Mm-hmm. 00:25:19.461 --> 00:25:19.871 Right. 00:25:20.080 --> 00:25:28.191 And if, if drugs and alcohol were the actual problem I was fighting against, then putting down the drugs and alcohol would have solved all the problems. 00:25:28.401 --> 00:25:38.490 But the truth is, there's something underneath the drugs and alcohol that prompt me to go to them, and we refer to it as alcoholism in, in the rooms of 12-step recovery. 00:25:38.500 --> 00:25:41.240 Alcoholism begins where the bag and the bottle end. 00:25:41.580 --> 00:25:49.381 It's the, the state that I will naturally enter into emotionally, physically, and mentally when you take my pills and my, my booze away. 00:25:49.921 --> 00:25:53.310 And, uh, and that's the thing I was experiencing at 12. 00:25:53.320 --> 00:25:55.250 It's the thing I was experiencing at 35. 00:25:55.320 --> 00:25:55.661 It-- Right? 00:25:55.661 --> 00:25:56.191 It's the same thing. 00:25:56.721 --> 00:26:11.211 And so interestingly enough, though, this emotional bottom I'm, I'm telling you about was really me sitting in a rehab going, "I don't know why I'm here," but it was the first time I'd ever realized that I had everything I wanted in my life. 00:26:11.681 --> 00:26:22.471 Like, I had the beautiful family, and the kids, and the connection, and all these different things, but I had focused on those little minutiae that were wrong for so long that they had expanded, and I could no longer see what was right. 00:26:22.810 --> 00:26:31.739 I could no longer see the beauty, uh, around me, and that's not uncommon for, for people like me, disconnected And I think that happens to a lot of people in life generally. 00:26:31.739 --> 00:26:39.098 That's why the practice of gratitude, and it sounds cliché, right, 'cause everybody talks about that, but it is, there's a reason for it. 00:26:39.118 --> 00:26:40.058 It's so effective. 00:26:40.058 --> 00:26:47.028 We can all get, whether we are suffering from substance use disorder or not, we can all get into the minutia of what's wrong. 00:26:47.038 --> 00:26:53.199 We can all look and spot a million things that are wrong, or feel bad about ourselves about something we did or didn't do. 00:26:53.638 --> 00:27:04.318 But yet when we focus on what's right, when we focus on what we c- we have to be grateful for, our lives improve because of it, no matter who you are Yeah, abso- well, where attention goes, energy flows. 00:27:04.328 --> 00:27:06.108 That's a, that's a principle, right? 00:27:06.108 --> 00:27:09.313 The more I focus on something, the bigger it's gonna get Right. 00:27:09.363 --> 00:27:09.752 Right. 00:27:10.167 --> 00:27:26.807 If you're a mother grieving the loss of a child, dear friends of mine, moms who've lost children to fentanyl poisoning and overdose, are hosting the Sisters of Strength Warrior Moms Retreat October 9th through the 11th at Wildwood Hills Ranch in St. Charles, Iowa. 00:27:27.268 --> 00:27:33.417 It's a weekend of healing, connection, horseback riding, and creative remembrance with women who understand. 00:27:33.968 --> 00:27:38.048 This weekend isn't about forgetting, it's about remembering with love. 00:27:38.357 --> 00:27:40.968 The link and details are in the show notes. 00:27:41.137 --> 00:27:56.773 I hope you'll join us And so finally in 2024, uh, two years ago, a couple years Yep. 00:27:57.064 --> 00:27:57.374 Mm-hmm. 00:27:58.769 --> 00:27:59.539 got off Kratom. 00:27:59.569 --> 00:28:02.977 You mentioned that was a difficult thing It was a, it was a horrendous process. 00:28:02.997 --> 00:28:06.787 The detox is, you know, the physical detox is what it is. 00:28:06.787 --> 00:28:12.436 You could probably take Suboxone or, or one of the various, you know, medically assisted therapies and, and get off of it. 00:28:12.436 --> 00:28:19.906 But, but at the same time, I think a big part of the pull, at least for me, from Kratom, was a number of things. 00:28:19.916 --> 00:28:21.906 One, it was, it was fairly instant. 00:28:22.267 --> 00:28:24.727 Two, I didn't have to go to the black market to get it. 00:28:24.977 --> 00:28:32.396 And three, I mean, maybe this is part of the delusion, I felt like I could operate in this world high on Kratom without anyone really noticing. 00:28:32.537 --> 00:28:34.646 Because, you know, you get drunk, people are gonna know. 00:28:34.646 --> 00:28:36.737 You smoke pot, you know, the eyes show. 00:28:37.017 --> 00:28:42.886 But it didn't really seem to have the sort of physical, you know, telltale signs that a lot of the different drugs do. 00:28:42.886 --> 00:28:50.636 And so when I got out of, of treatment in, in, in 2024, it was, it was a whole other ballgame. 00:28:50.636 --> 00:28:56.267 I, y- you… Like, I, there were many times in my life where I knew I couldn't do this any longer. 00:28:56.517 --> 00:29:12.846 But no matter how strong that resolve was, if I detach from people like me, and when I say people like me, other addicts, alcoholics, people that, that think and feel and have all these different quirks, uh, in the same way that I do, I start to believe that maybe I'm not as bad. 00:29:12.906 --> 00:29:15.186 And that sounds crazy after the story I just told you. 00:29:15.576 --> 00:29:17.686 Uh, but in, in a real sense it is. 00:29:17.696 --> 00:29:30.866 Like, that, that mechanism in our brain that says, "If you touch a stove, it, it'll burn

you. Don't do it again," Mm-hmm for whatever reason when it comes to the drugs and alcohol, gets turned off, and I don't really understand why So interesting. 00:29:31.126 --> 00:29:35.457 So in the last two years, what has helped you maintain your sobriety? 00:29:36.105 --> 00:29:38.605 Yeah, so I'm a member of, of 12-step recovery, right? 00:29:38.605 --> 00:29:43.085 So it's working the steps thoroughly, uh, carrying the message to other guys like me. 00:29:43.565 --> 00:29:44.765 That's been a big part of it. 00:29:44.934 --> 00:29:52.815 I have, you know, I have five kids at home, and so as a result of five kids at home, there's not a lot of time to participate in events outside of my home. 00:29:52.815 --> 00:30:01.845 So it's really forced me to lean into the aspects of it that, you know, I only get to like two meetings a week, which for most guys like me wouldn't really be sufficient. 00:30:02.255 --> 00:30:06.984 Um, but I lean into a lot of the, a lot of the service aspect of it. 00:30:06.984 --> 00:30:21.905 I s- I sponsor a lot of guys and, and, you know, just believe it or not, part of telling my story really is a really great reminder for me, of what it was like story through a book called One Last Hit, and also you have a podcast by the same name, right? 00:30:22.510 --> 00:30:22.941 I do indeed. 00:30:23.250 --> 00:30:23.550 Yeah. 00:30:23.941 --> 00:30:32.280 And, and that has been, you know, that took about four years to write, and I will say that the process of that was a huge defragmenting of my own story. 00:30:32.300 --> 00:30:35.490 'Cause when… A- and you've written a book, uh, Angela, I believe, right? 00:30:35.705 --> 00:30:38.635 Yes, when- I actually wrote an, uh, I, I write a blog. 00:30:38.655 --> 00:30:43.786 I've written a blog since Emily's death that's found on our website, but I wrote a book before that, before her death. 00:30:43.796 --> 00:30:51.705 It was actually an, uh, a biography of someone who suffers from alcoholism, actually, and had ended Okay and ironically. 00:30:52.066 --> 00:30:54.286 Um, but so I know the process of writing a book. 00:30:54.695 --> 00:30:55.555 Um, Yeah. 00:30:55.664 --> 00:31:17.759 And, and, but writing a book about my own story, what I came to realize is I had these memories about how things occurred, but as you know, when you put them down on paper, we need to get granular, we need details, we need it so somebody else can read it and go, "I get what's going on there." And I started to realize that there were a lot of times when I was misremembering things in a way that suited the narrative I wanted to believe. 00:31:17.960 --> 00:31:18.359 Sure. 00:31:18.410 --> 00:31:19.150 We all do that. 00:31:19.630 --> 00:31:20.049 Yeah. 00:31:20.565 --> 00:31:32.535 but it was such a, you know, 'cause I was writing chapters and then going to see my therapist in the same week, and he's going, "Yeah, let's dive into this, 'cause this is good stuff." And it was really like a strange defragmenting of my story that I had never really done before. 00:31:32.835 --> 00:31:40.984 And so even just, you know, if nobody ever reads it, and people have now, but even if no one ever reads it, the process of writing it was just so impactful for me. 00:31:41.055 --> 00:31:41.865 So impactful. 00:31:42.261 --> 00:31:43.301 Therapeutic, I bet. 00:31:43.541 --> 00:31:44.174 And your Totally. 00:31:44.362 --> 00:31:47.801 One Last Hit focuses on addiction or other things? 00:31:48.338 --> 00:31:49.798 Yeah, so it focuses on addiction. 00:31:49.798 --> 00:32:13.789 I've, you know, what I've been doing is I've been bringing kind of addicts and alcoholics in my circle on and say,"Hey, let's tell your story, man. Let's get into how you ruined your life and what does recovery look like." Um, but I'm actually having a lady on this afternoon who's a therapist around addiction, and she is going- we're gonna get into different topics, and so we're kind of expanding on that front And what have you learned from other people's stories? 00:32:13.809 --> 00:32:18.660 'Cause I learn so much from other people's stories every podcast I do, every story that we tell. 00:32:18.680 --> 00:32:19.470 What have you learned? 00:32:20.131 --> 00:32:20.451 Hmm. 00:32:20.540 --> 00:32:21.391 That's a great question. 00:32:21.721 --> 00:32:23.441 So I've learned a number of things. 00:32:23.451 --> 00:32:33.780 One, I will tell you, I had no idea that people were getting sober in so many different ways, and I didn't really learn that until I started doing recovery media, I guess, for example. 00:32:34.121 --> 00:32:47.861 But another thing that I learned, and this is maybe something a little bit more personal to me, is that there's so many similarities, maybe not in the experiences that we had, but in the way that we thought and we felt, and I could really connect with people on that basis. 00:32:47.861 --> 00:32:57.131 And I've noticed that people that come on my show, even if I had, let's say, an acquaintance was th- with them before, man, I love those people now because I've got their backstory. 00:32:57.161 --> 00:33:03.300 I know what makes them tick, and it's just on, uh, almost on a selfish sort of way, I just love it. 00:33:03.705 --> 00:33:08.701 You're It's great connection and community through the podcast it sounds Hundred percent. 00:33:08.780 --> 00:33:18.403 And that connection is the antidote to addiction better than anything I've ever experienced That, that is what I've heard since the beginning, that connection is the antic- antidote for addiction. 00:33:18.413 --> 00:33:34.686 And, um, I, you know, I, I feel really powerless and, and frustrated when there are people in the throes of substance use disorder, um, including my daughter, who somehow were not helped through connection, and, and Right. 00:33:34.753 --> 00:33:35.374 frustrating. 00:33:35.993 --> 00:33:36.364 Yeah. 00:33:36.467 --> 00:33:37.717 can understand that, yeah. 00:33:37.836 -->

00:33:43.497 I hope I don't have to go through that, but if I do, you know, with any of my children, um, they'll know where to go. 00:33:43.551 --> 00:33:44.707 it because Yeah. 00:33:45.271 --> 00:33:45.801 yeah. 00:33:46.336 --> 00:33:46.807 Yeah. 00:33:46.876 --> 00:33:48.142 There's-- is your oldest child? 00:33:48.886 --> 00:33:51.656 So my oldest is 15, and my youngest is 1. 00:33:51.988 --> 00:33:54.957 Oh, so we have-- We're-- I have the whole spectrum in there. 00:33:55.267 --> 00:34:00.987 Um, but my 15-year-old is an amazing girl, and so far, fingers crossed, we have not seen that. 00:34:01.337 --> 00:34:02.218 That's, that's good. 00:34:02.327 --> 00:34:02.807 That's good. 00:34:02.936 --> 00:34:03.217 Yeah. 00:34:03.217 --> 00:34:03.887 A out for. 00:34:04.278 --> 00:34:09.998 Well, percent Is there anything else you'd like our audience to know before we sign off on this episode? 00:34:10.675 --> 00:34:11.454 You know, not really. 00:34:11.454 --> 00:34:20.005 I, I really appreciate the opportunity to come on and, and just kind of rap about this with you is, I appreciated the, the questions that you asked most of all. 00:34:20.275 --> 00:34:30.385 Um, but I, I really enjoyed getting into from my perspective, the insanity of repeating the same behavior even though I know how bad it will get. 00:34:30.695 --> 00:34:40.355 And, you know, if, if there is somebody, and I, I think almost everyone in this world's got somebody in their circle that is addicted or struggling in some way, there really is a solution. 00:34:40.355 --> 00:34:58.038 But I-- in my case, that solution was not something I was willing to look at until all the doors to continue had been closed Oh, that's so interesting, and it's so hard for people on the outside watch that, because you weren't willing to look at the solution. 00:34:58.867 --> 00:35:05.378 We can often, as someone who, as people who don't suffer from substance use, to sort of keep offering the solutions over and over again. 00:35:05.697 --> 00:35:15.215 But until that person is ready, and sadly, because of fentanyl and other dangerous analogs in the drug supply, don't always get that chance to finally Mm-hmm. 00:35:15.597 --> 00:35:18.233 "I'm ready for the solution." Definitely. 00:35:18.463 --> 00:35:27.043 And so there's a huge risk to, you know, like in, in early, early sobriety, my mom, the way I went to treatment is she showed up at my place and said, "Pack your bags and get in the car." Right? 00:35:27.432 --> 00:35:30.012 And, Right her having the wherewithal to do that. 00:35:30.012 --> 00:35:35.472 But, um, you know, one thing that I've noticed is, you know, there's a couple sides to this coin. 00:35:35.483 --> 00:35:41.833 There's the coin that says, um, you know, shun the addict and alcoholic until they're ready to make a decision. 00:35:42.103 --> 00:36:00.922 But if you look at other countries and even countries that have legalized, you know, drugs, um, they have a much higher rate of recovery and kind of where the, the connection is the antidote to addiction came from, um, was a guy named Johann Hari who, who did a, uh, a TED Talk basically about that exact thing. 00:36:00.922 --> 00:36:06.373 But what he referenced was, were the policies of the country of Portugal, and Portugal legalized everything. 00:36:06.373 --> 00:36:16.222 But what they said was, instead of sending you to jail as an addict, what we're going to do is we're going to have social programs, and we're gonna do things to try and integrate you back into society in spite of your addiction. 00:36:16.222 --> 00:36:19.193 And what they found was addiction dropped by like 50%. 00:36:19.233 --> 00:36:21.096 It was crazy Right. 00:36:21.155 --> 00:36:29.565 We, we have it wrong in this country, I think punishing people and sending people to prison, and oftentimes they don't get any treatment there, or they get treatment right before they're about to leave. 00:36:29.565 --> 00:36:37.916 And, um, the root of the issue is never truly addressed in the, in our country, the way we criminalize it and deal with it. 00:36:39.356 --> 00:36:41.376 but yeah, that's a whole other conversation. 00:36:41.646 --> 00:36:50.896 And I Sure is we need a lot of change and a lot more understanding in this whole entire world that we, you and I talk about on a Sure. 00:36:52.146 --> 00:37:00.847 I think the understanding is difficult when it, it feels so offensive when what the addict is doing, stealing from you, harming themselves, harming other people, right? 00:37:00.847 --> 00:37:07.320 It feels so offensive, but the truth is it's a scared, you know, little child in there, uh, trying to get out Yeah. 00:37:07.739 --> 00:37:08.019 Yeah. 00:37:08.809 --> 00:37:14.690 thank you so much for sharing your story, and we'll put links to your book and to your podcast in the show notes. 00:37:14.690 --> 00:37:21.646 And I just appreciate you being so open and honest, and the chance to get to know you better Ah, my pleasure, Angela. 00:37:21.646 --> 00:37:22.407 Thank you so much. 00:37:22.407 --> 00:37:30.603 I really appreciate it You're welcome And thank you for taking the time to learn more about a disease that impacts millions of people across the country. 00:37:30.943 --> 00:37:36.032 We hope you found this conversation helpful and you'll share it with someone who may benefit. 00:37:36.422 --> 00:37:41.273 If you or someone you know is struggling with substance use disorder, don't wait to seek help. 00:37:41.603 --> 00:37:46.052 You can find a list of resources on our website EmilysHope.charity. 00:37:46.463 --> 00:37:52.463 We've included a direct link in the show notes along with other Grieving Out Loud episodes you may find helpful. 00:37:52.813 --> 00:37:56.583 Be sure to join us each week for a brand new conversation. 00:37:56.913 --> 00:38:02.682 You can also listen to hundreds of past episodes anytime at EmilysHope.charity. 00:38:03.092 --> 00:38:04.492 Thank you so much for listening. 00:38:04.813 --> 00:38:08.693 Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage. 00:38:16.184 --> 00:38:20.304 This podcast is produced by Casey Wandenberg King and Kayli Fitz