Pełna transkrypcja odcinka Promoting enabling environments in custodial settings

rehabilitation. 00:04:56.800 --> 00:05:05.600 But prison is such a tricky space because by nature you remove all identity, you remove the client's opportunity to make choices, self-direction, routines. 00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:10.560 You take away these primary skills, and clients become quite institutionalized in this environment. 00:05:10.560 --> 00:05:15.519 And so what happens is they're meant to comply and align to this risk management approach. 00:05:15.519 --> 00:05:23.199 And my presentation spoke to the pendulum of moving when it's solely focused on management, the risk is you have no focus on treatment. 00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:31.839 And in a really compliance-driven environment where you remove all of these skills and opportunities to practice a skill, the skills regress. 00:05:31.839 --> 00:05:36.240 But if you think about offense management when they go into the community, what do we need? 00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:37.759 We need to be able to problem solve. 00:05:37.759 --> 00:05:39.120 We need conflict resolution. 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:42.000 We need to feel confident in how to set up a routine for the day. 00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:46.720 We need to have self-initiation and we need to know we have something meaningful to do that day. 00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:48.240 We need to have a sense of purpose. 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:50.079 We need to have relationships. 00:05:50.079 --> 00:06:00.000 And relationships are tricky because we need to make sure that our family, our protective factors, our key people in our life want to come into the environment and see me. 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:10.720 And if the environment doesn't set up a therapeutic space where they feel safe, the actual relationships, the family coming in, if they don't feel safe enough to come in, there's a poor quality engagement, right? 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:12.879 So it can rupture those relationships. 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:20.000 So everything I spoke about was how do we actually look at the environment to actually create a rehabilitative culture? 00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:23.600 And this is not just around opportunities for skill development. 00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:25.439 This is around looking at the environment. 00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:28.800 And as a culture, how are we promoting rehabilitation? 00:06:28.800 --> 00:06:36.079 So how are we actually protecting our staff to show up every day and say, you belong here, I have a sense of hope. 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:37.519 I'm gonna look after you. 00:06:37.519 --> 00:06:38.800 We're on the same team. 00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:42.480 And when I say staff, I don't just mean the custodial staff or the clinical staff. 00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:45.519 I mean the janitor and the admin staff. 00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:50.560 So when families come to the front, someone's smiling at them and saying, You're welcome here. 00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:51.759 You belong here. 00:06:51.759 --> 00:06:55.439 We're gonna help you stay connected to your family member. 00:06:55.439 --> 00:06:58.959 You have the janitor who says, I know this is a really important place. 00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:01.360 I'm gonna make sure it's safe and clean for everyone. 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:15.519 So a lot of what I spoke about was looking at these environments that naturally restrict individuals, focus primarily on management, remove opportunities for skill development, and also potentially increase risk because they're re-traumatizing. 00:07:15.519 --> 00:07:24.000 Whereas if we flip the switch, we flip it on its head, we create an environment that's quite enabling, we're more likely to actually give opportunities to practice the skills. 00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:31.199 We're actually giving staff the opportunity to feel this empowering agency, and then they're more likely to give this sense of hope to the client. 00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:32.959 So everyone's working on the same team. 00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:35.439 And it's really about that culture of rehabilitation. 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:38.959 We're trying to move more towards everyone's equal. 00:07:38.959 --> 00:07:41.199 Staff, the participant, everyone. 00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:45.360 We talk a lot about person-centered practice, and it's all about the client. 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:52.879 Obviously, I'm focused on the client, but you can't actually facilitate access to skill development. 00:07:52.879 --> 00:08:01.279 You can't facilitate access to opportunities for rehabilitation or treatment programs unless the people delivering them know why they're there. 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:03.360 They feel a sense of value to be there. 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:08.000 They're empowered to actually provide the sense of hope and optimism for the person. 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:20.879 And unless they show up with that mentality, and unless the environment facilitates that for the staff, you run a risk of it just what I call treatment paralysis or really a focus on management more than treatment. 00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:35.679 And essentially what happens is clients leave prison, go into the community, are missing those prerequisite skills, and they're missing the actual foundational features that actually facilitate the rehabilitation or offense management. 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:42.080 So the community often says, well, hang on a minute, you've done bad things, lock you up, save your time, that's gonna fix you. 00:08:42.080 --> 00:08:50.320 You know, we're gonna we're gonna lock you away for eight years, ten years, and suddenly you're magically gonna change overnight and you're gonna come out in the community and that's all gonna be sorted. 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:52.320 And I'm that that doesn't work, right? 00:08:52.639 --> 00:09:02.320 No, it doesn't, because so you say they're in prison for five years, and during those five years, they've lost all those basic skills to function in daily life, to function in the community. 00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:05.519 So our expectation is

they're naturally just gonna get those skills back. 00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:07.120 No, they're terrified. 00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:14.559 I had a client tell me one time, he had come out, he was out for a week, he sent me a message and just said, I can't do this anymore, it's really hard. 00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:16.320 And I said, What's going on? 00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:18.799 And he said, It's just really noisy out here. 00:09:18.799 --> 00:09:22.879 And he said, and I have no idea how to make my breakfast. 00:09:22.879 --> 00:09:26.639 And I'm like, that's quite important, right? 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:28.639 And this was in context of a number of things. 00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:30.799 I didn't know who was coming to see me that day. 00:09:30.799 --> 00:09:34.240 I don't feel like I can get up and I'm used to just this routine. 00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:36.480 And he really just wanted to go back to his routine. 00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:55.519 But it's really important to think if you do not practice your skills every day, and if you are not promoted to practice and you're not empowered to focus on hope for a better future, and if you can't see opportunities to actually practice this, the thing is opportunities to practice leads to opportunities to feel successful, and then you see the possibilities. 00:09:55.519 --> 00:09:58.960 Then you see hope and you can see a path forward. 00:09:58.960 --> 00:10:05.200 And if you don't have that opportunity to practice, it's really hard to move forward. 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:07.919 So entering the community, it's really terrifying. 00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:10.879 And we can't expect people to use skills that we haven't practiced. 00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:11.919 We've taken away. 00:10:11.919 --> 00:10:12.639 Yeah, we have. 00:10:12.639 --> 00:10:18.480 It was when you were kind of locked up, I guess, even something like in five years, like you know, Myki might have been introduced. 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:19.519 That's right. 00:10:19.519 --> 00:10:20.799 Your phone. 00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:23.759 But it's even just basic problem solving. 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:28.080 We miss those prerequisite skill sets that are required for offense management. 00:10:28.080 --> 00:10:29.440 So problem solving. 00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:33.679 Who are my safe people that I can still contact when I'm not doing okay? 00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:37.120 Or even just when I need to say hello to someone to know I'm not alone. 00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:44.879 All this basic conflict resolution, I'm gonna walk out and I'm gonna feel quite judged in the community because I've been inside the last period of time. 00:10:45.039 --> 00:10:45.279 Yeah. 00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:47.039 How do I manage that? 00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:49.440 So rehabilitation's important then, isn't it? 00:10:49.440 --> 00:10:53.120 It's about actually supporting people so that things do change. 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:59.440 Rehabilitation, I find I look at behavior change as two things, habilitation and rehabilitation. 00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:06.320 And habilitation is effectively teaching all the functional skills that promote someone's independence. 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:14.879 Those are really, really important to practice across different contexts and settings, particularly in prison or custodial environments and the community. 00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:21.600 Rehabilitation speaks to reframing behaviors to make the offending behavior unnecessary. 00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:23.919 So it's two parts to it. 00:11:23.919 --> 00:11:32.879 If we neglect one, it means we're solely focused on the reframing of the offending behavior, but we forget they need to live a quality life. 00:11:32.879 --> 00:11:34.399 They need to have purpose and meaning. 00:11:34.399 --> 00:11:42.000 So if they don't have the skills to function in the community, they're more likely to default to old patterns that actually promote the offending behavior. 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:46.320 So we're not, I mean, obviously, we're talking a lot about complexity at the Complex Needs Conference. 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:52.399 And then when I think about complexity, I think a lot about things like trauma, things that have happened to people as well. 00:11:52.399 --> 00:12:01.200 How do we manage then environments that you know help individuals feel safe and supported when you know you've had such a history of trauma? 00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:04.480 That often leads to distrust, doesn't it? 00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:08.639 So they have a learning history where people have let me down, it's me against the world. 00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:17.519 I'm gonna engage in behavior that's most likely driven by fear, but it presents as avoidance in a custodial environment, it presents as protesting or oppositional. 00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:25.679 It can present as patterns in personality and attachment styles, and it can lead to really high-risk behavior effectively. 00:12:25.679 --> 00:12:33.679 So when someone doesn't feel safe, you're more likely to experience these high-risk behaviors, quite impulsive, reactive behaviors. 00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:42.639 And if we don't set up the environment where someone feels safe, then it actually impacts the staff's safety, it impacts the person's safety and they stagnate. 00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:49.919 So we need to think about trauma in the context of not just how it impacts the immediate situation, we need to think about every environment. 00:12:49.919 --> 00:12:52.639 Is it going to re-traumatize the individual? 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:57.120 That's gonna drastically impact their ability to rehabilitate and reintegrate. 00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:00.320 And what I often say is just re-engagement in the community. 00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:06.159 We talk about reintegration, but it's actually engaging with the community is really tough. 00:13:06.159 --> 00:13:09.600 How do we actually take that first step to go outside? 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:16.639 And

and also as well, I think when we think about stigma and discrimination, so the minute you say someone's been to jail, like that's like, whoa, alert. 00:13:16.639 --> 00:13:17.279 That's right. 00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:20.399 You know, all of those kind of things come up, don't they? 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:23.840 And trauma sits in, it sits in every aspect of you. 00:13:23.840 --> 00:13:26.960 It sits in your learning history, so your expectation of staff. 00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:28.159 You don't trust people. 00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:30.159 You assume they're gonna let you down. 00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:32.720 It changes the way your brain functions. 00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:39.120 In a prison environment, your stress levels are probably a bit higher because you're on natural alert all the time, and that's your survival instinct. 00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:43.840 So you're more likely to engage in those maladapted behaviors that kept you safe and surviving. 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:49.039 But also, if you think about it, your stress levels go up, your cognitive processing goes down. 00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:55.279 So your capacity to communicate, to listen, to remember things drastically reduces. 00:13:55.279 --> 00:14:03.039 So it can feel quite terrifying to be in this environment and think, I don't have memory, I can't remember what to do, I don't know what this is for. 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:07.360 They tell me I need to take medication, I don't trust who's given it to me, I don't know who the doctor is. 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:14.159 You're in this constant state of fear and distrust, which means you are constantly sitting in this hyper-vigilant state. 00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:18.240 So it drastically impacts your ability to engage in treatment effectively. 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:36.320 Whereas what I was trying to say in the presentation was if we create these enabling environments, and in the UK, they've demonstrated they've created 10 standards out of the Royal College of Psychiatrists, and it's 10 standards that demonstrate an enabling environment, and it really focuses on this therapeutic environment. 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:39.679 And everyone's equal staff, the participant, everyone is equal. 00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:41.519 That's quite a radical concept, isn't it? 00:14:41.519 --> 00:14:43.679 You just pause for a second, so everyone's equal. 00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:45.600 Because a lot of people would say actually, no, they're not. 00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:50.639 Like, hello, sorry, I'm a prison guard, I am not equal to a prisoner in this space. 00:14:51.200 --> 00:14:54.159 I think that the important part is the value base. 00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:56.159 It's creating a culture of rehabilitation. 00:14:56.159 --> 00:15:10.000 So it's actually from the outset, if you put all these 10 standards in place through various routines, effectively you're creating a culture that everyone feels optimistic, hopeful, and they can see rehabilitation is the focus. 00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:17.840 So you absolutely have to hold that value base that has to be strong within the entire setting in order for it to work. 00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:19.440 Wow. 00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:20.960 And so they've done that in the UK. 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:27.039 They've actually put that in place and it's accepted as part of this is how we do stuff. 00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:34.240 There's quite a number of studies that are on the Royal College of Psychiatrists where they present the outcomes of enabling environments. 00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:37.840 And there's a number of prisons who have embraced this idea. 00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:46.480 And the outcomes are great: staff safety, staff well-being, prisoner safety, prisoner engagement and treatment, which is all any of us want, right? 00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:48.639 We want to go to work and we want to feel safe. 00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:53.600 And we all know working with this population, there is significant risk of harm across the board, right? 00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:57.919 We're managing risk of harm to the individual, the community, and ourselves and our staff. 00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:02.080 So everyone wants to just go feeling psychologically and physically safe. 00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:09.679 So creating a culture where that is paramount is everyone's psychological and physical safety as your foundation. 00:16:09.679 --> 00:16:16.639 It means you're tapping into that trauma-informed practice, but then you're essentially demonstrating the escalation of what that means. 00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:19.279 So you're creating a culture that builds upon one another. 00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:23.759 It's a sense of belonging, agency, communication needs are met across the board. 00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:28.720 So it's all that universal design to set up an environment where people can thrive. 00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:34.639 It's an enabling space and it actually facilitates access to opportunities for rehabilitation. 00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:38.799 You can't assume you can just rehabilitate in in a broken system. 00:16:38.799 --> 00:16:41.679 You don't thrive in an environment that naturally disables you. 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:42.559 No, you don't. 00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:44.559 No one does, you're right. 00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:49.519 And your analogy of the school teacher to school teachers is a really, really powerful one. 00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:58.000 And I don't think anybody would argue and say that if prison was doing a really good job, we would be rehabilitating people that are in jail. 00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:03.919 And yet we also have this discourse that's like, oh, you can't give people in jail hello, no, no, no, no, they're they're here because they're bad. 00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:07.759 We can't give those things, and then what happens is we get this kind of revolving door, right? 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:11.519 And people just go in and out and in and out, and we don't change anything.

00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:18.000 And then clients often feel like no one cares what's the point. 00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:18.480 Yeah. 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:26.400 And we're asking them to put all this effort into treatment, and we're asking them to comply with certain procedures and meetings and attendance. 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:32.319 I'm not asking for compliance, I'm asking for engagement because someone can show up and it means nothing. 00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:43.680 Someone can participate and we can participate together, and we can say, we're in this together, we're on this journey together, we can do this and it's going to be tough, but we we're here and we can do it together. 00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:46.799 That creates possibility, that creates hope. 00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:53.359 And unless you feel like you have people in your corner, it's kind of no point in putting the effort in to engage in the treatment. 00:17:54.319 --> 00:17:59.839 And do you see, I mean, in the Australian context, any kind of work like that happening here? 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:09.359 I think there's lots of good work happening, and especially when you look at specialist units with forensic disability, I think there is lots of really good work happening. 00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:12.559 I would love to see more universal design. 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:19.440 I would love to see that within a prison setting, for example, we know there's high levels of communication deficits. 00:18:19.440 --> 00:18:24.240 So why wouldn't we address the communication needs of the general population? 00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:30.799 And having visual aids and having different opportunities of ways to be told information in advance. 00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:38.319 Having, you know, a routine board, for example, is something to promote someone's ability to engage in routines. 00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:44.240 Having opportunity for choices in their routine as they progress to maybe next stages of treatment. 00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:50.799 That's an opportunity that you're practicing those skills, but at the same time, you're utilizing those universal systems of effective communication. 00:18:50.799 --> 00:18:54.559 That's not just with the specialist units, that's across the board. 00:18:54.559 --> 00:19:01.759 Doing that with staff is really important because the more we do it with our staff, the more they're more likely to model these behaviors into our clients. 00:19:01.759 --> 00:19:14.880 So you you do see good practice across the board in SnippBits, but I don't think there's a real universal design or a universal narrative saying, actually, we need to create a therapeutic culture that focuses on rehabilitation. 00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:18.079 And it's every point of contact can be therapeutic. 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:22.240 From when you walk in the front door and see your admin staff, that is therapeutic. 00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:27.279 How we engage with our person, we're going to prepare them to show up to their supervision meetings. 00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:31.759 We're going to give them information in advance about what the medical appointment would look like. 00:19:31.759 --> 00:19:34.240 And these are the questions you can ask about treatment. 00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:40.319 So you don't just say no to treatment, you actually are able to make a concerted decision based on it. 00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:42.319 And so you're empowered in that discussion. 00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:47.519 And it's a much more harmonization approach, and you're able to think through what your all your options are. 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:50.480 I don't see that collectively across the board. 00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:54.160 I don't think it's the same energy that's put towards it. 00:19:54.160 --> 00:20:04.799 And I don't know if there's enough around the actual culture of a prison setting or a custodial setting, or just even within disability services restrictive settings. 00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:22.559 I think with high-risk individuals, we tend to see if we don't have a solid culture that's based in the same value base around reintegration, rehabilitation, pro-social behavior change that's built around hope and compassion and empowerment. 00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:25.920 If we don't have that in place, we tend to see more restrictions. 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:30.799 And we see the pendulum focus more on management than treatment. 00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:39.039 And I guess your argument is that management only manages a situation, but treatment changes it. 00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:39.920 That's right. 00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:41.279 And there's a balance. 00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:42.559 You need a balance. 00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:45.599 You need the management to facilitate the treatment. 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:49.359 But management doesn't have to be coercive and fear-based. 00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:56.160 Management can be boundaries and can be clear with clear expectations, clear policies in place. 00:20:56.160 --> 00:21:03.759 But if you have a culture that is focused on rehabilitation, the way you engage in the management, it will create safety for everyone. 00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:09.200 We've been asking everyone that we've been talking to on GetReal here at the 2025 Complex Needs Conference. 00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:18.799 If you had a magic wand that's been given to you and you can make radical change, what is it that you would use it to do? 00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:22.640 I would change the youth justice system. 00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:25.200 So nothing, nothing too big then, Chelsea. 00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:26.240 Nothing too big. 00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:37.680 I would absolutely advocate to keep young people away from a prison custodian environment and look more on therapeutic communities and providing them a safe home. 00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:42.319 We don't want to manage the absconding behavior that leads to high risk behavior. 00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:44.720 We want kids to

want to stay home. 00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:50.640 We want kids to have a home or have a care setting they want to participate in, they want to be with. 00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:54.079 We want kids to have a number of safe places they can access. 00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:59.599 So I would much prefer to see young people, particularly given their trauma histories. 00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:14.240 And their complex relationships, I would much prefer seeing them access a therapeutic community environment that could actually focus on habilitation and rehabilitation more than tough on crime, adult crime. 00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:20.160 Which is a big conversation happening, I think, in all all across Australia, actually, not just here in Victoria where we are today. 00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:25.200 But you know, you look at Alice Springs, some of the conversations up in the top end, you know, up in Queensland. 00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:26.640 It's a hot topic, isn't it? 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:32.319 Youth and youth gangs and youth crime and let's get tough on crime and lock them up. 00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:35.119 And and I'm hearing you say, well, that's going to change nothing. 00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:39.519 We're just going to lock people up where you're going to give them an apprenticeship to be to offend further in life, right? 00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:41.279 This is the best place you're going to go and learn. 00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:44.240 So we need to think and do things differently. 00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:45.519 Yeah, that's right. 00:22:46.079 --> 00:23:06.960 So just my kind of last comment, really question for you, is if people listening, you know, who who are in in situations where they can actually make these changes, what environmental changes do you think make the most significant diff difference when it I guess it comes to promoting that really positive pro-social behavior? 00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:15.839 Like two or three, if there were two or three things, like the secret herbs and spices, that people did it, it would make the biggest difference. 00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:23.759 If we treat people with respect, then they know that's expectation and they will feel a sense of worth. 00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:29.279 And so what I said in my presentation is learning is a social process. 00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:35.839 And so those key ingredients will be if we would like to see behavior change, we must act it first. 00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:43.519 We must model it first, and we must provide multiple opportunities to feel it's possible, to feel hope, and to practice. 00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:51.119 And they need to experience if it fails and they have a hiccup, bump them the road, that someone's going to be there because they give a shit. 00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:51.920 Yeah. 00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:52.799 That's huge. 00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:57.359 So, Chelsea, if people listening, if they want to know more about your work or get in contact, is that easy to do? 00:23:57.920 --> 00:23:58.160 Yes. 00:23:58.160 --> 00:24:01.440 So I own a practice called Elements ABC. 00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:06.400 And my email is ctroutman at elementsabc.com. 00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:07.359 We're easy to find. 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:08.240 We're on the website. 00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:09.759 Just look up Elements ABC. 00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:19.440 We have a video that kind of speaks to this value base and speaks to how to look after the most marginalized group of our society and so that everyone knows they matter. 00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:24.400 And finally, are there any closing comments or things that you'd like to say? 00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:27.519 I love the science of behavior. 00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:32.319 I will absolutely promote teaching skills, meeting people's personal needs. 00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:36.960 But we cannot only look at the through a lens that focuses on the client. 00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:40.559 We have to look at the entire setting the client is functioning within. 00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:46.079 We need to look at the context, we're expecting this, and we need to think what we're expecting from our clients. 00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:53.839 Have we put in the same energy to our staff to ensure that they show up that day and they can actually facilitate this treatment in the most effective way? 00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:55.519 We need to look at the whole system. 00:24:55.519 --> 00:24:58.240 And this is representative of our community, to be fair. 00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:02.559 We're a very fragile community, and we need to look at the health and well-being of all of us. 00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:14.000 And we need to look at all those dimensions of an enabling environment to ensure everyone's psychologically safe, everyone's empowered, everyone has an opportunity to show up to work and say, Oh, I matter, I belong. 00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:19.279 And they will deliver the best rehabilitation and optimism for our clients that they need. 00:25:19.519 --> 00:25:23.920 I love it, and I love the sense of hope, Chelsea, that you give in this conversation. 00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:32.000 So thank you so much for joining us on this very special edition of Get Real live from the 2025 Complex Needs Conference in Melbourne. 00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:32.880 Thank you. 00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:33.920 Thank you. 00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:42.559 You've been listening to Get Real, talking mental health and disability brought to you by the team at Irma365. 00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:48.400 Get Real is produced and presented by Emily Webb with Karenza Louis Smith and special guests. 00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:51.039 Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.