Pełna transkrypcja odcinka From Incarceration to Inspiration: The Journey of David Garlock

--> 00:05:34,640 Until I no longer needed that, the truth came out and I shared and I told the story. 58 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:40,160 I shared how I am a man, I am a victim. 59 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:47,800 I am a man and I am a victim, it was raw and emotional, the bandages had scabbed up and 60 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,920 each word shared was ripping open. 61 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:55,720 The wounds were freshly open, pus and blood freely flowed. 62 00:05:55,720 --> 00:06:01,400 It wasn't a painful bleeding but one in which I knew I would be healing. 63 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:06,440 Layer after layer was discarded till there was no longer anything present except the 64 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:08,480 wounds laid bare. 65 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:13,360 The way the detective talked was like salve being wiped over the wounds. 66 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:19,320 He was not demeaning me for what I did but understanding of the act because he was a 67 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:24,800 man and was also a victim. 68 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:29,640 David that is so incredibly powerful. 69 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:38,640 Tell me a little bit if you would about the behind of that poem or that story. 70 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:44,040 Well, one thing I love to do is I love to write. 71 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:45,640 Writing is a very healing for me. 72 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:50,040 I did a whole bunch of writing while I was incarcerated and I've done a whole bunch more 73 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:51,840 since I've been out. 74 00:06:51,840 --> 00:06:58,760 But the backstory of that poem is about my experiences as somebody who was molested as 75 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:00,160 a child. 76 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:07,920 So my brother and I were molested by a non-family member who had befriended my brother and began 77 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:12,200 molesting him back in 1990. 78 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:17,200 The abuse began with me on January 1st, 1991. 79 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:19,800 And this abuse went on for eight years. 80 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:26,760 And after the initial interaction with me, this individual told me that if I ever told 81 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,040 anybody, he would kill my family or myself. 82 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:34,240 So I had to begin to create mass. 83 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,840 I had to begin to create different personas. 84 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,760 In psychology, they talk about it being disassociation. 85 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:47,080 So I had to separate myself from what was going on because no one could know what was 86 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:48,240 happening to me. 87 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:54,760 And so that's where I was talking about the different wounds in these bandages. 88 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:56,760 No one could see. 89 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:04,680 And it wasn't until the point that I was arrested on October 29, 1999 for taking this individual's 90 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:09,480 life that I began to take off those bandages. 91 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:15,720 I was only able at a point where I could tell somebody what had happened to my brother and 92 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:23,840 me and to tell somebody about the murder because there was a four-month period between the 93 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,640 actual murder and being arrested. 94 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:30,760 And that was a really hard time too because here it is, I'm living with the fact that 95 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:32,520 I had taken somebody's life. 96 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:36,760 And to get through that time, it was all about just coping. 97 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:41,320 So I was using any and every drug I could find or use. 98 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,080 And drinking alcohol or vodka or liquor every night. 99 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,880 I mean, that's how I got through that time. 100 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:48,880 Wow. 101 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:55,120 And I'm sorry to hear about the abuse that you went through that must have been absolutely 102 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:56,120 awful. 103 00:08:56,120 --> 00:09:01,720 How as a child, how old were you at that time? 104 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:02,720 If you don't want me to ask you. 105 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,280 I was 11 years old when the abuse began. 106 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:06,280 Okay. 107 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:13,880 And how was an 11-year-old process and heal from that sort of childhood trauma? 108 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:20,920 Well, I mean, I wasn't able to process that and heal until I was actually arrested and 109 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:22,200 I was in the county jail. 110 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:27,920 I mean, I was in prison and I was reading a book about child sexual abuse. 111 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:33,160 And in this book, it was talking about how people who are sexually abused as children 112 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:35,440 blame themselves for the abuse. 113 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:40,080 So my healing and I'm going to say this one thing too. 114 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,280 I mean, this is something that you're always going to be healing from. 115 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:49,760 I mean, healing from sexual abuse, healing from any trauma is not like healing from a 116 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:51,560 scrape on your leg. 117 00:09:51,560 --> 00:09:52,840 In two weeks, it's gone. 118 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:53,840 You have a scar. 119 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:55,640 I mean, it's a process. 120 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:59,560 There's going to be definitely things you're experiencing your whole life. 121 00:09:59,560 --> 00:10:02,160 It's like this onion. 122 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:06,200 There's so many different layers to what one experiences. 123 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:10,640 But one of the main things that has helped me was reading that book. 124 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:15,320 And then I was able to have this conversation with the 11 year old David and tell him it 125 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:20,680 wasn't his fault that I no longer had

to blame myself for what had happened. 126 00:10:20,680 --> 00:10:27,480 And then really another aspect is my faith, my trust and belief in God and knowing that 127 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:36,160 when I was going to church as a kid when this was happening, I really didn't trust or believe 128 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:42,040 in God because I would always ask like, how could a loving God allow this to happen? 129 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:50,360 And then when I was in prison, I came to this realization that it wasn't God that allowed 130 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:57,040 it or it wasn't God who was doing it, but it was the sin in the world that allowed it. 131 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:03,000 But God was there to comfort me in different ways and to place people in my life to help 132 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,400 me and to help the healing process. 133 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:07,400 Okay. 134 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:14,080 So that almost, I nearly said the word, salve them, which is the word that you used. 135 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:21,320 It almost helped you to heal by using God. 136 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:32,120 So for anybody who is listening, who may also have gone through child sexual abuse, what 137 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:34,400 advice to them would you give? 138 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:40,320 As you just said, this can be something that you carry onward as a trauma throughout your 139 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:41,800 adult life. 140 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,280 What advice would you give to them in how to deal with that? 141 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:49,600 Well, I mean, there are multiple things that I would say, but the first thing is somebody 142 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:57,640 who is listening this, who has never had the courage to tell anybody, that is the first 143 00:11:57,640 --> 00:11:58,640 step. 144 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:03,160 But you have to find the courage to tell somebody about what you've experienced and that's the 145 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,520 first step to healing. 146 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:14,040 If you think about alcoholics anonymous or narcotics anonymous, the first thing is you 147 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:16,600 have to admit you're powerless over it. 148 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:18,000 And that's the same thing with this. 149 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:23,360 You have to admit that this happened to you and that's what happened. 150 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:25,200 That's the first step. 151 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:33,480 The second thing is to find a counselor that is familiar with trauma, familiar with dealing 152 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:38,600 with people who have been sexually abused as children. 153 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:43,080 And then the third thing, which some people are always like, wait, what? 154 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:45,520 Why do you want me to talk about it? 155 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:46,520 Talk about it. 156 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:51,840 The more you talk about it, the more power you have over your situation. 157 00:12:51,840

--> 00:12:56,640 The more power you have over that hurt, that pain. 158 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:04,880 Another aspect of that is you get to define how that plays in your life now. 159 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,160 So me, I get to go around in universities. 160 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:13,880 I get to go to these conferences and speak and talk about being somebody who was victimized 161 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:15,240 as a child. 162 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:20,280 But in doing this, there's numerous people that come up to me afterwards and talk about 163 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:21,520 their own abuse. 164 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:29,440 So what I've done is I've changed the narrative about what happened to me in a way that will 165 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:34,160 provide healing and provide opportunities for others who are going through similar things 166 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:38,240 to come to the point and say, that's exactly what happened to me. 167 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:39,240 Yeah. 168 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:41,200 You're almost giving them that empowerment. 169 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:47,880 And that is so incredibly important, empowering people to take control over that trauma and 170 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,240 not control them. 171 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:52,520 Oh, absolutely. 172 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:58,480 And when I talk about trauma, I talk about two different, I use this analogy about a 173 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:00,480 scab and a scar. 174 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:07,200 And so if you have a scab on your arm and it gets hit, the scab is going to come off, 175 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:09,960 it's going to bleed, it's going to be painful. 176 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:14,920 And then you get another scab, but then you knock that scab off, it's bleeding and painful. 177 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:18,640 That's the cycle of somebody who hasn't healed from their trauma. 178 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:23,280 They're causing going through this cycle where things are good, something triggers them, 179 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:29,080 they go back to that age of when they were harmed and that they're for a week or two 180 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,360 weeks trying to deal with it. 181 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,680 And things are okay again for another month and then they're triggered again. 182 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,040 And so that's the person that looks like a scab. 183 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:44,200 But the person that's like a scar is a person that's gone through the healing process. 184 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:51,080 And we know if you have a scar and you hit that scar, it's not going to bleed. 185 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,400 It's not going to be painful unless you hit it really hard, then it might be a little 186 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:55,400 painful. 187 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,640 But that scar does two things. 188 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:05,680 One, it reminds you of the pain, it reminds you of where you've been, what you've endured 189 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:07,080 and how you've overcome. 190 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:11,760 But the second thing you're able to do with that scar is you're able to take that scar 191 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:16,360 and show somebody who has a scab and let them know that healing is possible. 192 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,160 That is such a fantastic analogy. 193 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:20,560 I love that. 194 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:27,680 And I think I read about you say your brother handled it like the trauma, like it was a 195 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:31,600 scalp and you handled it like a scar. 196 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:38,680 And I honestly think that is such an excellent analogy for people to take away with them. 197 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:47,680 And to empower people to talk and make talking about our pasts, our traumas, things that 198 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:54,680 we have been resilient through is so powerful and is so powerful for our mental health as 199 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:55,680 well. 200 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:56,680 Absolutely. 201 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:03,120 Because if we're not talking about it, we're just putting it within. 202 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:09,520 When I was in this paper modification program in prison, we were taught about having a gunny 203 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:10,520 sack. 204 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:15,200 So think about this big backpack that we have on our back. 205 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,520 And we have to get ready to go through this door. 206 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:23,240 But everything that's happening in our life, we keep putting in this backpack. 207 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:28,040 And so it gets to a point where it's so big, we can't get through that door. 208 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:30,320 So that is us going through life. 209 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:35,280 That is us going through all these traumatic situations, this pain, this heartache, everything 210 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:37,480 we experienced in life. 211 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:42,240 So what do we have to do to get through that door? 212 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,280 We have to begin taking stuff out of the backpack. 213 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:46,280 Yeah. 214 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:52,000 To begin to unpack all of this stuff that's happened in our life. 215 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:58,280 And then we're able to go out the door because the backpack is back to a smaller size and 216 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:00,040 we can make it out the door. 217 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:01,040 Yeah. 218 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:02,760 And we're lighter, so much lighter. 219 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:03,760 Oh yeah. 220 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:04,760 Easier. 221 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:05,760 Absolutely. 222 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:15,720 And I seem to remember reading that within your young teenage life as well, that you'd 223 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,000 were made homeless. 224 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:23,040 Was that before you went to live with the abuser? 225 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:24,040

Yeah. 226 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:29,320 Because there was a lot of situations that happened because the abuse was happening while 227 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,360 I was still living with my dad. 228 00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:37,280 Every weekend the abuse would happen because I would go see my mom and stepdad where this 229 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:40,880 abuser and my brother were living. 230 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:47,600 He had brought my mom and stepdad back up to Washington state from California just so 231 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:49,600 he could have access to me. 232 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,600 So every weekend the abuse would happen. 233 00:17:52,600 --> 00:18:00,480 And then later on is when I was in the house or wherever we were dwelling at that point 234 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:02,640 because there was so much. 235 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:08,080 But yeah, I lived on the streets when I was 16 for about a month and a half in Seattle, 236 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:09,080 Washington. 237 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:18,000 And that's one thing that my sister, my brother and I all experienced was street life because 238 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,080 we were kicked out in different points of our life. 239 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:30,200 I always tell people that if you looked up the word dysfunctional family in a pictorial 240 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:37,200 dictionary, my family picture would be there because there was so much dysfunction, so 241 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,440 much trauma, so much pain. 242 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:44,560 One of the first memories I have was my dad chasing my mom and sister around with a hacksaw 243 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,120 blade during the day to kill them. 244 00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:49,440 And this was at five years old. 245 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:50,440 Gosh. 246 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:58,520 And so there was so much trauma, so many different experiences that we had in life. 247 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:03,200 And that's one of the things that I talk about, you know, because when you think about people 248 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:09,680 that end up in prison, so many of them have had these traumatic experiences. 249 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:16,680 They have grown up in dysfunctional families or dysfunctional communities that aren't preparing 250 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:22,200 them to succeed, they're in essence preparing them to end up in a carceral setting. 251 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:29,760 So it almost is as if those people that they label as, as you've said, dysfunctional or 252 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:35,880 too difficult to do anything with, it's almost like they just allow them to go downhill because 253 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:37,720 they're too much money. 254 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:42,080 We're going to have to invest too much to, I don't know, make them fit in the box. 255 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:43,880 We want them to fit in. 256 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:45,760 So where are they going to end up? 257 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:50,560 As you've said, on the streets or incarcerated. 258 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,080 And that's awful. 259 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,720 And that's really where our society has failed. 260 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,120 Because just like you said, it's like it would cost too much. 261 00:20:00,120 --> 00:20:06,680 It would take too much time and effort from us to help them. 262 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:11,320 But the thought process we have to get is this. 263 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,600 What if we do help those people? 264 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:18,560 What if we do take that time to sit down and have conversations with them and help them 265 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:22,800 work through that trauma? 266 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:28,080 Some of the work that I did after I got out of prison and graduated colleges, I worked 267 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,360 with people who had committed sexual offenses. 268 00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:33,480 People are always like, wait, what in the world? 269 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,080 How can you work with this population? 270 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,400 And I would tell people, you know, it's about grace. 271 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:39,400 It's about mercy. 272 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:40,400 It's about forgiveness. 273 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:45,480 I'm a client of Brian Stevenson and the Equal Justice Initiative. 274 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,040 And he always says, you're not as bad as the worst thing you've ever done. 275 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:54,880 And so working with these men, I realized that a lot of them had been sexually abused 276 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:55,880 themselves. 277 00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:04,640 And so just imagine if somebody took time to ask questions to these men when they were 278 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:08,160 kids about being abused. 279 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:10,160 What could have been stopped? 280 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:17,960 I had that exact same conversation with a chap yesterday who had been through sexual abuse 281 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,920 in the UK and who himself ended up in prison. 282 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:27,880 This exact same conversation about whilst he was in the education system, perhaps things 283 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:33,280 could have been done because it was obvious then that life was going downhill for him. 284 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,720 And maybe that could have been the case in your case. 285 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:43,840 When you were homeless, people surely, services surely must have seen that at that time. 286 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:54,280 Well, I mean, the services at that time really weren't focused on providing a lot of help. 287 00:21:54,280 --> 00:22:01,640 It seemed like it was more about providing a place for sleep at night, potentially focusing 288 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:08,440 on you being involved with some type of GED or other program like that, but really not 289 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:13,320 having a social worker or psychologist or

psychiatrist sitting down talking with people 290 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:14,440 about their issues. 291 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,160 And so really, I think that's where we need to get to. 292 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:24,640 So I have done a presentation called How Social Workers Can Help Dismantle the Trauma to Prison 293 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:25,640 Pipeline. 294 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:32,280 And in it, I talk about the three different aspects of this prison, this trauma to prison 295 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:37,120 pipeline is before somebody goes to prison, while they are in prison or when they get 296 00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:38,120 out. 297 00:22:38,120 --> 00:22:44,680 And before prison, a lot of that has to do with being in schools, having conversations, 298 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:49,840 educating parents, educating anybody who's going to be in a position of authority in 299 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:55,880 this person's life about triggers, about red flags, about if your son or daughter is acting 300 00:22:55,880 --> 00:23:00,280 a certain way, you need to notice these things and begin to have questions. 301 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:06,320 And then it's also about educating the children and letting them know that their parents or 302 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:15,640 other people in positions of authority that if something's happening, they are able to 303 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:22,720 go talk to them and let them know what's happening to prevent anything from any further 304 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:29,320 actions, any further contact, any abuse, anything like that. 305 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:35,760 Because a lot of times kids are afraid to tell somebody because they don't know if they're 306 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:37,520 going to be believed or not. 307 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:38,520 Yeah. 308 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:39,840 And that's the awful thing. 309 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:45,440 And as you said, abusers more often than not will tell those children, I will kill you. 310 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:46,960 I will kill your family. 311 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:52,840 No one's going to believe you and put the living fear of God into those poor kids. 312 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:59,360 And then another thing too is 95% of people who commit a sexual offense are known to the 313 00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:00,840 person that they abuse. 314 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:02,840 So this is a family member. 315 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,560 This is a somebody in church. 316 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:07,440 This is a teacher. 317 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:12,600 This is their boy scouts leader or a group leader. 318 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,640 So somebody this person knows. 319 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:21,360 So we have to get away from propelling this thought that stranger danger is where the 320 00:24:21,360 --> 00:24:28,880 sexual abuse is happening and really prepare our kids and teenagers to know that, okay, 321 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:35,240 sexual abuse is going to happen by somebody you know, somebody who is working their way 322 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:40,480 into your inner circle to have that closeness to you. 323 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:46,800 And I was just going to say then, do you think then as I don't know as parents or as a society, 324 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:56,000 knowing that, do you think we let people into our lives too quickly and we're too trusting? 325 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:02,600 It can be that, but it's also that we're not aware of red flags. 326 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,840 We're not watching close enough to things that are happening. 327 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:14,280 If you have a neighbor named Billy Joe Bob and Billy Joe Bob is giving your daughter 328 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,600 new toys every week. 329 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:17,600 Yeah. 330 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:18,600 Yeah. 331 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:20,920 Something is wrong with that picture, right? 332 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:21,920 Absolutely. 333 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:28,320 Or if you have a teenager and they broke their phone and William down the street gives her 334 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:32,880 a new cell phone that's cost $1,500. 335 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:33,880 What are you going to think? 336 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:34,880 Yeah. 337 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,280 So we have to be more aware of things. 338 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:43,160 We have to be able to have these conversations with our children and let them know that if 339 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:48,360 certain things are happening, they need to tell us because that's not appropriate. 340 00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:55,200 Now if Billy Joe Bob came up to me and was like, hey, I was out shopping and I saw this 341 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,880 toy that I thought your daughter or your son would like and I got it, can I give it to 342 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:00,880 them? 343 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,600 That's a whole different story. 344 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:04,600 Absolutely. 345 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:13,160 So if we may, and I don't want to go into the finer detail of it because we've already 346 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:21,600 discussed this, but the taking the life of the abuser, that must be, you know, it's an 347 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,840 incredibly complex and sensitive part of your story. 348 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,320 But how did you cope with that aftermath? 349 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,840 And you said that was four months after. 350 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:37,520 How did you cope in those four months or even once you were arrested? 351 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:43,400 I mean, the way that I coped was, I mean, drugs and alcohol, any drug you could think 352 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:44,720 of I was using. 353 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:53,000 So I was what you would consider a functional alcoholic or user because I knew that I had 354 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:57,400 to work to make money for these drugs and I was a waiter. 355 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:06,680 So I think

waiting tables was a benefit for me too because here I am. 356 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,040 What do you do when you're waiting tables? 357 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:10,680 You're acting, you know? 358 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,920 So I didn't have to really be me. 359 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,960 I really didn't have to think about what had happened. 360 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:22,200 I was just this happy go lucky waiter trying to make a whole bunch of money so I could 361 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:23,200 get drugs. 362 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:30,840 And what was really baffling about it is there were so many times that I had people that 363 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:36,920 I was buying drugs from come to my work and I'd be waiting on them and I'd give them money. 364 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:42,720 I'd put the drugs in my apron so I could have a whole bunch of pain pills. 365 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,480 I could have some cocaine. 366 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:51,080 I could have some marijuana and with my tips, you know, and I wasn't worried about like 367 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:57,760 a cop coming and potentially busting me because all I was thinking about is, hey, when I get 368 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:03,040 off work, I'm going to get high, I'm going to get drunk and I'm going to be numb. 369 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,200 I'm not going to feel anything anymore. 370 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,480 And that's what my whole mentality was. 371 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:18,080 So how did it feel then when the police did come here? 372 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:24,040 It was a shock because I didn't know, I never thought that we would be caught. 373 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:29,000 I always had fear that we would, but then when it actually happened, I was like, oh, 374 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,720 wow, this is actually happening. 375 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:38,400 But there's a lot of fear, a lot of trepidation because here I am, I had just turned 20 years 376 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:45,560 old and the murder happened in Alabama, which if you don't know much about the United States, 377 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,920 Alabama is one of those states that love to give out the death penalty. 378 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:55,360 So I'm thinking I'm potentially going to get the death penalty or sentenced to life without 379 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,720 parole, which means I would spend the rest of my life in prison. 380 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,000 So that first weekend, I'm just crying myself to sleep. 381 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:04,640 I didn't know what was going to happen. 382 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:11,640 I was fearing that I was going to be put in the electric chair and Alabama's electric 383 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:13,720 chair had a nickname. 384 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,320 And its nickname was Yellow Mama. 385 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:29,240 And it was something that really had me so consumed with fear that first weekend. 386 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:34,320 November 1, 1999,

it was a Monday morning, I was taken over for more questioning in the 387 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:35,320 city jail. 388 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:40,560 And I'm put in this small, tiny interrogation room by myself for seven hours. 389 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,960 So I had a lot of time to think about the murder, think about the abuse, think about 390 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,560 everything that had transpired. 391 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:51,520 And I finally got to a point where I wanted to confess and tell everything that had happened. 392 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:57,280 And when I did that, that was this big weight that was taken off my chest. 393 00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,320 And they came in videotaped it. 394 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,760 And then what happened next changed the whole trajectory of my life. 395 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,160 Me and the detective were heading back to the county jail. 396 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:12,100 I'm sitting in the front seat with them, I had my arms handcuffed in front of me. 397 00:30:12,100 --> 00:30:16,860 I looked to him and I'm like, Am i going to get the death penalty or life without parole? 398 00:30:16,860 --> 00:30:19,400 He turns to me, He is like, Do you believe in God? 399 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,880 I'm like, Am i going to get the death penalty or life without parole. 400 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:24,620 He is like, Do you believe in god? 401 00:30:24,620 --> 00:30:27,280 I'm like, Am I going to get the death penalty of life without parole. 402 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,160 He is like, Do you believe in God? 403 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,420 And finally, I'm like, Yeah, I believe in God. 404 00:30:31,420 --> 00:30:33,940 And like, You need to seek him now. 405 00:30:33,940 --> 00:30:37,900 And that conversation just changed the whole trajectory of my life because when I got back 406 00:30:37,900 --> 00:30:42,900 to the county jail, I asked for a little New Testament Bible and I surrendered my life 407 00:30:42,900 --> 00:30:43,900 to God. 408 00:30:43,900 --> 00:30:44,900 Wow. 409 00:30:44,900 --> 00:30:50,420 I have to ask, why yellow? 410 00:30:50,420 --> 00:30:52,900 What's the color of the chair? 411 00:30:52,900 --> 00:31:01,700 So it's called yellow mama because the electric chair is this big honking metal chair that's 412 00:31:01,700 --> 00:31:02,700 painted yellow. 413 00:31:02,700 --> 00:31:06,740 And there's a movie called Just Mercy. 414 00:31:06,740 --> 00:31:12,820 It's about the lawyer that worked with my brother, me, Brian Stevenson, and the Equal Justice 415 00:31:12,820 --> 00:31:13,820 Initiative. 416 00:31:13,820 --> 00:31:19,620 And they actually have a scene where one of the guys is actually being executed on the 417 00:31:19,620 --> 00:31:20,820 electric chair. 418 00:31:20,820 --> 00:31:26,420 And so you can get a good reference of what the electric chair looked like. 419 00:31:26,420 --> 00:31:31,860 Or you could just go to Google, you could go Google yellow mama Alabama and

it'll come 420 00:31:31,860 --> 00:31:37,660 up and it'll share how the definition came to so how the nickname came. 421 00:31:37,660 --> 00:31:43,380 And am I right in thinking Alabama has the highest death penalty record? 422 00:31:43,380 --> 00:31:45,380 Is it am I right? 423 00:31:45,380 --> 00:31:48,500 No, I don't think Alabama does. 424 00:31:48,500 --> 00:31:57,300 Actually I think Texas might have the most people who they put to death. 425 00:31:57,300 --> 00:32:05,260 What's very interesting is back in 1976 was when they re-initiated the death penalty here 426 00:32:05,260 --> 00:32:09,340 in the US before then they had gotten rid of it. 427 00:32:09,340 --> 00:32:16,300 And since then, there's I think like 30 states who have gotten rid of the death penalty. 428 00:32:16,300 --> 00:32:22,020 So really your main states that are doing the death penalty are like Texas, Oklahoma, 429 00:32:22,020 --> 00:32:26,100 Tennessee, Alabama, Florida, Mississippi. 430 00:32:26,100 --> 00:32:30,700 You know, a lot of your southern states that are in the Bible belt. 431 00:32:30,700 --> 00:32:31,900 Okay. 432 00:32:31,900 --> 00:32:39,420 So how long did you have to wait then for I presume in the UK they call it that you're 433 00:32:39,420 --> 00:32:40,700 being charged. 434 00:32:40,700 --> 00:32:44,460 So you will you're going to call for that offense. 435 00:32:44,460 --> 00:32:50,380 How long did you have to wait from being I get being charged with it before finding 436 00:32:50,380 --> 00:32:53,020 out what your sentence was? 437 00:32:53,020 --> 00:33:01,620 So I was in Alabama what they do is you're arrested, then you have a preliminary hearing 438 00:33:01,620 --> 00:33:05,460 which they tell you what you're being sentenced with or charged with. 439 00:33:05,460 --> 00:33:08,980 So my brother and I we were charged with murder. 440 00:33:08,980 --> 00:33:13,980 So when we found out that we were being charged with murder that was definitely a big relief 441 00:33:13,980 --> 00:33:19,540 because murder you can't get the death penalty or life without parole. 442 00:33:19,540 --> 00:33:24,620 But that was a relief knowing that we were charged with just murder and we didn't receive 443 00:33:24,620 --> 00:33:28,060 our sentence for like 14 months. 444 00:33:28,060 --> 00:33:34,860 And after that we played out to it and so we received a 25 year sentence. 445 00:33:34,860 --> 00:33:39,220 A lot of people are always like, wait, how did they give you a 25 year sentence? 446 00:33:39,220 --> 00:33:45,740 And I always tell people that they could have easily charged us with another offense which 447 00:33:45,740 --> 00:33:53,380 is called justifiable homicide and that offense would have only carried a one to 10 year sentence. 448 00:33:53,380 --> 00:33:58,500 So we could we probably would have only done two and a half years in prison if we had received 449 00:33:58,500 --> 00:34:00,580 a charge like that. 450 00:34:00,580 --> 00:34:05,340 OK, and you actually went on and served 13 and a half years. 451 00:34:05,340 --> 00:34:09,540 Yes, so total I served 13 and a half of the 25 year sentence. 452 00:34:09,540 --> 00:34:16,460 And then I was on parole for just over nine years before I received my pardon in 2021. 453 00:34:16,460 --> 00:34:25,740 OK, so what have you learned about forgiveness for others and for yourself throughout that 454 00:34:25,740 --> 00:34:26,740 experience? 455 00:34:26,740 --> 00:34:30,660 So you said the detective said, do you believe in God? 456 00:34:30,660 --> 00:34:36,220 So was that the turning point where you began to forgive yourself? 457 00:34:36,220 --> 00:34:39,780 Were you ever able to forgive the abuse? 458 00:34:39,780 --> 00:34:44,500 Yeah, I mean, I've gone to a point where I've forgiven myself and forgiven the abuser, but 459 00:34:44,500 --> 00:34:47,700 it's a process, you know. 460 00:34:47,700 --> 00:34:55,100 And I forgave the abuser before I got out of prison, but then there have been different 461 00:34:55,100 --> 00:34:59,060 things that have allowed that forgiveness to go deeper. 462 00:34:59,060 --> 00:35:08,580 So I'd say that we can forgive people on kind of like a surface level. 463 00:35:08,580 --> 00:35:15,460 But then things happen that allow that forgiveness to go deeper, because we might not have realized 464 00:35:15,460 --> 00:35:19,500 how deep that hurt or pain went. 465 00:35:19,500 --> 00:35:23,780 And then there's different things in our life that allows us to realize that that pain was 466 00:35:23,780 --> 00:35:24,860 deeper. 467 00:35:24,860 --> 00:35:29,420 And so we're able to offer that much more forgiveness. 468 00:35:29,420 --> 00:35:34,340 I'd say one thing that definitely helped me do that was working with individuals who had 469 00:35:34,340 --> 00:35:36,460 committed sexual offenses. 470 00:35:36,460 --> 00:35:40,820 It's a job that I never thought I would have. 471 00:35:40,820 --> 00:35:45,300 And it just came about by God opening different doors. 472 00:35:45,300 --> 00:35:51,860 My wife actually found the job on this app called Idealist. 473 00:35:51,860 --> 00:35:57,580 And it was just a reentry program director in Lake Astor, Pennsylvania, part time. 474 00:35:57,580 --> 00:36:00,700 I was like, okay, sounds perfect. 475 00:36:00,700 --> 00:36:01,780 I applied. 476 00:36:01,780 --> 00:36:05,980 And then the first interview I had with the executive director, he's like, tell me some 477 00:36:05,980 --> 00:36:06,980 stuff about you. 478 00:36:06,980 --> 00:36:08,460 So I shared my story with him. 479 00:36:08,460 --> 00:36:11,100 And he's like, I have a question for you. 480 00:36:11,100 --> 00:36:12,460 I was like, okay. 481 00:36:12,460 --> 00:36:16,220 He's like, can you work with people who've committed sexual offenses? 482 00:36:16,220 --> 00:36:18,180 Because that's primarily who we work with. 483 00:36:18,180 --> 00:36:20,780 And I'm like, absolutely. 484 00:36:20,780 --> 00:36:24,020 Because of my belief

in grace, mercy, forgiveness. 485 00:36:24,020 --> 00:36:27,820 And that's how I began in this work. 486 00:36:27,820 --> 00:36:31,100 And I was in that role for three years. 487 00:36:31,100 --> 00:36:39,220 I looked at that role, especially now looking back, is as restorative justice. 488 00:36:39,220 --> 00:36:42,420 When you think about restorative justice, it's all about wholeness. 489 00:36:42,420 --> 00:36:49,180 It's about bringing the person who's cause harm with the person who has been harmed and 490 00:36:49,180 --> 00:36:51,060 allowing them to have dialogue. 491 00:36:51,060 --> 00:36:55,300 A lot of these men that I worked with were never going to be able to talk to the person 492 00:36:55,300 --> 00:36:57,180 that they had harmed. 493 00:36:57,180 --> 00:37:00,980 So here I was, I was able to be the victim by proxy for them. 494 00:37:00,980 --> 00:37:06,740 I was able to have these conversations with them and let them know how somebody who has 495 00:37:06,740 --> 00:37:10,740 been harmed would react and how that would make somebody feel. 496 00:37:10,740 --> 00:37:18,340 And it was so powerful just to see these men not only ask for forgiveness for the person 497 00:37:18,340 --> 00:37:22,740 who's been harmed, but actually get to a place where they forgave themselves. 498 00:37:22,740 --> 00:37:30,580 Because when you're in a place where you can't forgive yourself, that is a worse prison than 499 00:37:30,580 --> 00:37:33,100 any prison in the world. 500 00:37:33,100 --> 00:37:38,660 Because that's a prison that you created yourself and you're keeping yourself there. 501 00:37:38,660 --> 00:37:46,980 And I think, as you've said, by being able to be that victim by proxy was almost perhaps 502 00:37:46,980 --> 00:37:55,580 educational for the men to hear how they've made a victim feel. 503 00:37:55,580 --> 00:37:59,380 Perhaps not their victim, but it's a victim's voice. 504 00:37:59,380 --> 00:38:03,580 And that's somehow here and at times very needed. 505 00:38:03,580 --> 00:38:04,580 Yeah. 506 00:38:04,580 --> 00:38:12,020 I mean, it's, if somebody who has caused harm is able to have those type of conversations, 507 00:38:12,020 --> 00:38:21,460 it provides a different perspective, because I think really when you think about the legal 508 00:38:21,460 --> 00:38:31,100 system in the US and the UK anywhere, it really doesn't provide the opportunity for a conversation 509 00:38:31,100 --> 00:38:34,940 between the person that's caused a harm and the person that's been harmed. 510 00:38:34,940 --> 00:38:38,420 And that's really what's needed. 511 00:38:38,420 --> 00:38:44,900 Is seeing somebody go to jail or prison for an extended period of time, heal somebody? 512 00:38:44,900 --> 00:38:47,820 No, absolutely not. 513 00:38:47,820 --> 00:38:53,860 It provides a false sense of security, because now that person that has harmed them can't 514 00:38:53,860 --> 00:38:56,340 harm them or harm somebody else. 515 00:38:56,340 --> 00:39:02,220 But there's other people that can harm them, but it hasn't allowed them to deal with what 516 00:39:02,220 --> 00:39:03,220 happened to them. 517 00:39:03,220 --> 00:39:08,580 It hasn't allowed them to ask why were they chosen, why all these different questions 518 00:39:08,580 --> 00:39:09,580 that they have. 519 00:39:09,580 --> 00:39:18,020 And then another thing too is that those questions allow that healing to begin, then that person 520 00:39:18,020 --> 00:39:21,340 wouldn't have to be fearful to walk down the street. 521 00:39:21,340 --> 00:39:28,740 They wouldn't be triggered as much if they heard different sounds similar to when they 522 00:39:28,740 --> 00:39:30,020 were harmed. 523 00:39:30,020 --> 00:39:32,500 So I think that's really where we have to get to. 524 00:39:32,500 --> 00:39:38,460 We have to get away from a punitive system and get more to restorative, transformative 525 00:39:38,460 --> 00:39:41,300 system that is about healing. 526 00:39:41,300 --> 00:39:44,580 Why do we have to put somebody in prison for 50 years? 527 00:39:44,580 --> 00:39:46,620 Yeah, absolutely. 528 00:39:46,620 --> 00:39:51,300 And I think I've read that victims quite often will blame themselves. 529 00:39:51,300 --> 00:39:56,060 So as you said about the restorative justice, victims might be saying, it was my fault. 530 00:39:56,060 --> 00:39:57,060 Did I do this? 531 00:39:57,060 --> 00:39:59,940 Did I not lock my door? 532 00:39:59,940 --> 00:40:04,060 Did I wear a dress that was too short, too long, whatever? 533 00:40:04,060 --> 00:40:12,740 And by having those questions answered can calm their mind, perhaps, to a degree. 534 00:40:12,740 --> 00:40:15,100 So yeah, I agree. 535 00:40:15,100 --> 00:40:19,620 They need some questions answering. 536 00:40:19,620 --> 00:40:25,860 So if we talk about your emotional resilience and moving forward from everything that has 537 00:40:25,860 --> 00:40:33,660 happened, which has been so impactful in your life, how have you consciously, well, how 538 00:40:33,660 --> 00:40:43,620 do you consciously work to ensure that your past experiences don't define you as a person? 539 00:40:43,620 --> 00:40:47,300 I say a lot of it is just constantly in counseling. 540 00:40:47,300 --> 00:40:53,380 You know, it's always important to continue to have conversations, continue to talk about 541 00:40:53,380 --> 00:41:02,740 ways that my past continues to come back into my life, you know, and it could be in my relationship 542 00:41:02,740 --> 00:41:05,700 with my wife or other things, you know. 543 00:41:05,700 --> 00:41:12,140 One thing that my wife did early on our marriage is she read a lot of books about child sexual 544 00:41:12,140 --> 00:41:13,140 abuse. 545 00:41:13,140 --> 00:41:17,100 So she knew my coping mechanism. 546 00:41:17,100 --> 00:41:23,780 She knew that I did not like to deal with confrontation and I was shut down. 547 00:41:23,780 --> 00:41:28,580 And so she would always challenge me and

she's like, okay, you're doing it again. 548 00:41:28,580 --> 00:41:31,340 And I'm like, why do you have to know all this stuff? 549 00:41:31,340 --> 00:41:36,500 It's like, let me just shut down and like, deal with this. 550 00:41:36,500 --> 00:41:38,540 So I think that's definitely one thing. 551 00:41:38,540 --> 00:41:43,260 Definitely my faith continues to help working things out. 552 00:41:43,260 --> 00:41:48,420 And again, it goes back to being able to speak about it, you know, because the more I speak 553 00:41:48,420 --> 00:41:51,740 about it, the more power I have over it. 554 00:41:51,740 --> 00:42:02,300 And that's the thing that is so incredible is the thing that held me in such a negative 555 00:42:02,300 --> 00:42:10,380 place, the thing that I feared the most I now am able to use to empower others. 556 00:42:10,380 --> 00:42:16,860 I'm able to use to show people what a healing journey looks like. 557 00:42:16,860 --> 00:42:24,220 I'm able to talk about the shame, to talk about what I experienced in life to help other 558 00:42:24,220 --> 00:42:26,740 people be free. 559 00:42:26,740 --> 00:42:29,220 And that's owning it, isn't it? 560 00:42:29,220 --> 00:42:33,020 It's absolutely saying you are not having my power. 561 00:42:33,020 --> 00:42:37,620 You are not keeping me, you know, trapped, shut down. 562 00:42:37,620 --> 00:42:39,740 You're not going to, I'm not going to be that person. 563 00:42:39,740 --> 00:42:42,180 I am going to own you. 564 00:42:42,180 --> 00:42:50,700 And therefore no one can ever hold that over you against you because you are there shouting 565 00:42:50,700 --> 00:42:53,260 it from the rooftop saying, this is me. 566 00:42:53,260 --> 00:42:58,260 This is who I am and what I have overcome and how resilient I am. 567 00:42:58,260 --> 00:42:59,260 Yeah. 568 00:42:59,260 --> 00:43:04,300 And so many people ask me, they're like, man, how do you do what you do? 569 00:43:04,300 --> 00:43:08,460 And I tell them, it's like, I own it, you know? 570 00:43:08,460 --> 00:43:15,740 I get to define how what happened to me is played out in my life. 571 00:43:15,740 --> 00:43:16,740 Yeah. 572 00:43:16,740 --> 00:43:21,860 Do I want it to be something that continues to control me and keeps me in a prison? 573 00:43:21,860 --> 00:43:29,380 Or do I want to use it as a prison key to help other people get out of their prison? 574 00:43:29,380 --> 00:43:31,380 Yeah, absolutely. 575 00:43:31,380 --> 00:43:37,740 And just on that, what inspired you to help others and to be advocating for those who 576 00:43:37,740 --> 00:43:41,580 have faced similar challenges? 577 00:43:41,580 --> 00:43:44,940 I'd say one of the main things is Brian Stevenson. 578 00:43:44,940 --> 00:43:47,460 He's the founder of Equal Justice Initiative. 579 00:43:47,460 --> 00:43:51,580 He's a lawyer that worked with my brother and me and that helped us get out on parole 580 00:43:51,580 --> 00:43:58,020 important and just seeing his life and seeing the impact that he has had over the years. 581 00:43:58,020 --> 00:44:06,260 The other is I was invited to speak at a university my senior year in college and that opportunity 582 00:44:06,260 --> 00:44:14,220 just seeing how the students were resonating with my story and how they asked questions, 583 00:44:14,220 --> 00:44:21,940 you know, and how they were just drawn in to what I had experienced and wanting to make 584 00:44:21,940 --> 00:44:24,940 changes in the criminal legal system. 585 00:44:24,940 --> 00:44:27,260 That encouraged me so much. 586 00:44:27,260 --> 00:44:32,300 And I've spoken in about 70 universes across the United States now and it's incredible 587 00:44:32,300 --> 00:44:36,980 because if you told me that I would have been doing that when I got out of prison, I would 588 00:44:36,980 --> 00:44:38,780 have been like, yeah, okay, whatever. 589 00:44:38,780 --> 00:44:44,300 Who wants to hear me and what does my story have to do with anybody and how can people 590 00:44:44,300 --> 00:44:45,900 relate to it? 591 00:44:45,900 --> 00:44:55,740 But I'm always just renewing and redoing things because I want to be able to share my story 592 00:44:55,740 --> 00:44:59,820 in a way that it relates to anybody and everybody. 593 00:44:59,820 --> 00:45:04,500 I don't just want to be able to speak to people in criminal justice classes. 594 00:45:04,500 --> 00:45:09,420 I want to be able to speak to anybody in a university where they can listen to me and 595 00:45:09,420 --> 00:45:17,140 they can be challenged in whatever profession they're going into to be able to be an encouragement, 596 00:45:17,140 --> 00:45:20,780 be able to help people, you know, because that's what it's about. 597 00:45:20,780 --> 00:45:23,580 We need to be willing to help people. 598 00:45:23,580 --> 00:45:29,380 We can't just get into this thought process that it's all about David Garlock. 599 00:45:29,380 --> 00:45:32,220 Like Claire, forget you, forget anybody else. 600 00:45:32,220 --> 00:45:33,740 It's all about me. 601 00:45:33,740 --> 00:45:43,140 And how does it feel to know that you are challenging what effectively are, you know, soon to be 602 00:45:43,140 --> 00:45:49,380 professionals, you're challenging their perspectives on whether that's life or making judgments 603 00:45:49,380 --> 00:45:50,380 of others? 604 00:45:50,380 --> 00:45:58,820 Well, I mean, I love it, you know, and what's amazing about it is there's so many times 605 00:45:58,820 --> 00:46:03,660 where I'm planting seeds, you know, with my conversations with what I'm saying. 606 00:46:03,660 --> 00:46:09,740 And a lot of times we don't get to see those seeds, you know, come to fruition like your 607 00:46:09,740 --> 00:46:15,700 podcast, you know, you're planting seeds in people's lives who you might never know that 608 00:46:15,700 --> 00:46:17,740 was impacted by you. 609 00:46:17,740 --> 00:46:23,420 But what's so powerful is those times that you get to see the impact. 610 00:46:23,420 -->

00:46:29,220 So I was on a podcast on April 1st with one of my colleagues at the University of South 611 00:46:29,220 --> 00:46:33,860 Florida, and I spoke at the university two years ago. 612 00:46:33,860 --> 00:46:41,660 And so I was speaking to a class I shared, we had a Q&A and then during the Q&A, one 613 00:46:41,660 --> 00:46:46,180 of the students came on, she's like, I don't have a question, but I want to say something. 614 00:46:46,180 --> 00:46:51,140 I was like, okay, she's like, I remember when you came and spoke two years ago, I was there 615 00:46:51,140 --> 00:46:52,140 in the class. 616 00:46:52,140 --> 00:46:57,820 She's like, when I came to South Florida, I wanted to be a prosecutor. 617 00:46:57,820 --> 00:47:03,340 So I wanted to go lock people up and put them in prison for a long time. 618 00:47:03,340 --> 00:47:09,940 So like after you're hearing your story and the depth of it and just seeing the realness 619 00:47:09,940 --> 00:47:13,140 of you, she's like, now I want to be a defense attorney. 620 00:47:13,140 --> 00:47:16,820 I want to help people that are being charged with offenses. 621 00:47:16,820 --> 00:47:22,580 And I started getting teared up and then, you know, because it's one of those moments 622 00:47:22,580 --> 00:47:30,020 where you're like, wow, I had a profound impact on somebody's life. 623 00:47:30,020 --> 00:47:36,580 And it was just incredible seeing that she went from wanting to lock somebody up for 624 00:47:36,580 --> 00:47:41,740 the rest of their life to wanting to help somebody where they don't end up in prison. 625 00:47:41,740 --> 00:47:44,020 And it was just like, it was powerful. 626 00:47:44,020 --> 00:47:45,020 Absolutely. 627 00:47:45,020 --> 00:47:49,260 And I think, I mean, that is such a powerful story. 628 00:47:49,260 --> 00:47:56,380 I think it's very, very easy for us to point the finger of blame at people without ever 629 00:47:56,380 --> 00:48:02,020 listening or asking them their story. 630 00:48:02,020 --> 00:48:03,980 And I think, so go on. 631 00:48:03,980 --> 00:48:04,980 Absolutely. 632 00:48:04,980 --> 00:48:10,260 You know, and I always tell people to, you know, when you point a finger at somebody, 633 00:48:10,260 --> 00:48:14,020 always realize you have three fingers pointing back at you. 634 00:48:14,020 --> 00:48:19,780 So, I mean, it's one thing, you know, for us to like always talk about somebody else, 635 00:48:19,780 --> 00:48:23,500 you know, but we have to make sure that our garden is clean before we start talking about 636 00:48:23,500 --> 00:48:25,020 somebody else's garden. 637 00:48:25,020 --> 00:48:27,060 Yeah, absolutely. 638 00:48:27,060 --> 00:48:36,540 So let's talk how I think about what was it that you and your near and dear family continue 639 00:48:36,540 --> 00:48:40,260 to grow and develop emotionally. 640 00:48:40,260 --> 00:48:44,140 I did not hear you somehow my sound went out there. 641 00:48:44,140 --> 00:48:45,620 Can you repeat the question?

642 00:48:45,620 --> 00:48:46,620 Absolutely. 643 00:48:46,620 --> 00:48:49,500 What does a typical day look like for you now? 644 00:48:49,500 --> 00:48:54,300 And how do you continue to grow and develop emotionally? 645 00:48:54,300 --> 00:48:59,020 A typical day, well, sometimes it's waking up at five o'clock because I have a three 646 00:48:59,020 --> 00:49:04,060 and a half year old son, you know, and we just spend some time together in cuddle. 647 00:49:04,060 --> 00:49:08,900 And then I have to take him to his daily routines. 648 00:49:08,900 --> 00:49:10,380 He's out for the whole day. 649 00:49:10,380 --> 00:49:15,820 And then it's just a common each day is different, you know, some days I'm doing legislative 650 00:49:15,820 --> 00:49:16,820 visits. 651 00:49:16,820 --> 00:49:23,780 So some of the work I do here in Pennsylvania is we're working to create parole eligibility 652 00:49:23,780 --> 00:49:31,660 for elders and people who have a lot of medical conditions who are in prison and also parole 653 00:49:31,660 --> 00:49:35,980 for people who have given life without parole sentences. 654 00:49:35,980 --> 00:49:43,420 I'm doing a lot of work with different organizations setting up the different speaking engagements. 655 00:49:43,420 --> 00:49:48,740 To be a public speaker, there's a lot of legwork behind speaking, you know, your company's 656 00:49:48,740 --> 00:49:55,300 sending out emails connecting with folks, different things like that. 657 00:49:55,300 --> 00:50:02,020 Then I mean, really just listening in podcasts, listening to different things and increase 658 00:50:02,020 --> 00:50:10,460 my faith in the evenings, spending time with my wife and son, just a lot of different things. 659 00:50:10,460 --> 00:50:12,220 Got great. 660 00:50:12,220 --> 00:50:20,340 So advice for others then, what message would you like to convey to others who might be 661 00:50:20,340 --> 00:50:25,660 struggling with to overcome their own past traumas? 662 00:50:25,660 --> 00:50:31,660 I mean, the first thing I would say is, you know, if you've never shared about what you're 663 00:50:31,660 --> 00:50:37,660 going through, share, talk to somebody, it's going to be the greatest step that you've 664 00:50:37,660 --> 00:50:39,180 ever taken. 665 00:50:39,180 --> 00:50:44,340 It's not the last step, it's the first step, but you're going to receive so much power 666 00:50:44,340 --> 00:50:45,340 from that. 667 00:50:45,340 --> 00:50:48,700 And that's going to begin the healing journey. 668 00:50:48,700 --> 00:50:54,020 Those who are already on the journey, just continue, keep your head up, know that there's 669 00:50:54,020 --> 00:50:57,820 going to be times where you might get knocked down. 670 00:50:57,820 --> 00:50:59,340 But keep getting up. 671 00:50:59,340 --> 00:51:00,860 I mean, just think about this. 672 00:51:00,860 --> 00:51:06,620 If I'm in a boxing match with Lennox Lewis, you know, because I know that he was a British 673 00:51:06,620 --> 00:51:11,420 fighter, so people over there might know more about him than if I said Mike Tyson. 674 00:51:11,420 --> 00:51:16,380 But think about I'm in this boxing match with Lennox Lewis, you know, and he knocks me down 675 00:51:16,380 --> 00:51:18,620 in the first round, but I get up. 676 00:51:18,620 --> 00:51:21,300 He knocks me down in the second round, but I get up. 677 00:51:21,300 --> 00:51:24,940 In each continuous round, he knocks me down, but I keep getting up. 678 00:51:24,940 --> 00:51:32,300 And then in the 12th round, I dodge one of his right hooks and I come in with this uppercut 679 00:51:32,300 --> 00:51:34,860 that connects and I knock him out. 680 00:51:34,860 --> 00:51:36,420 Who wins the boxing match? 681 00:51:36,420 --> 00:51:37,900 Yeah, absolutely. 682 00:51:37,900 --> 00:51:40,420 I do. 683 00:51:40,420 --> 00:51:42,140 Because I knocked him out in the 12th round. 684 00:51:42,140 --> 00:51:46,980 It doesn't matter that he knocks me down in the first 11 rounds. 685 00:51:46,980 --> 00:51:50,380 What matters is I knocked him out in the 12th round. 686 00:51:50,380 --> 00:51:57,100 So just keep fighting, just keep getting up because you will win. 687 00:51:57,100 --> 00:51:58,100 Brilliant advice. 688 00:51:58,100 --> 00:52:01,700 And what advice would you give to your younger self? 689 00:52:01,700 --> 00:52:08,860 If you could go back to those times when life was incredibly difficult, when it was dysfunctional, 690 00:52:08,860 --> 00:52:10,300 etc. 691 00:52:10,300 --> 00:52:18,420 If you could give your younger self some advice, what would it be? 692 00:52:18,420 --> 00:52:25,660 Just tell them that life is going to be a lot better and just to keep persevering and 693 00:52:25,660 --> 00:52:30,580 know that the end is better than the beginning. 694 00:52:30,580 --> 00:52:33,780 Brilliant. 695 00:52:33,780 --> 00:52:41,540 And lastly, what do you, or how do you envision continuing to help others and make a difference 696 00:52:41,540 --> 00:52:44,140 in the future? 697 00:52:44,140 --> 00:52:50,900 I mean, some of the work that I'm doing is I teach some, I'm a teacher's assistant with 698 00:52:50,900 --> 00:52:52,700 our prison education program. 699 00:52:52,700 --> 00:52:59,180 So I love being able to go in and to help educate these men that are in prison. 700 00:52:59,180 --> 00:53:04,260 And it also empowers them because they're able to see me, somebody who's formerly incarcerated, 701 00:53:04,260 --> 00:53:07,780 and what I've been able to do in the 11 years that I've been out. 702 00:53:07,780 --> 00:53:14,060 Also just continue to speak every opportunity I have being on podcasts. 703 00:53:14,060 --> 00:53:20,500 Because getting stories out there is so powerful, you know, because stories make people feel, 704 00:53:20,500 --> 00:53:21,660 people can relate to it. 705 00:53:21,660 --> 00:53:27,340 They can say, okay, I see, I can relate to David because I've experienced A, B, and 706 00:53:27,340 -->

00:53:33,540 C, you know, so it's so important for people to hear that other people have gone through 707 00:53:33,540 --> 00:53:38,900 the same thing that they have and to see where they are, you know, so it provides that hope, 708 00:53:38,900 --> 00:53:41,700 it gives them the ability to dream. 709 00:53:41,700 --> 00:53:42,700 Absolutely. 710 00:53:42,700 --> 00:53:49,140 And lastly, do you have any final words or anything that you would like to send our listeners 711 00:53:49,140 --> 00:53:52,340 away with? 712 00:53:52,340 --> 00:53:56,220 I mean, I just say, you know, continue to listen to Claire's podcast. 713 00:53:56,220 --> 00:53:58,900 She's amazing. 714 00:53:58,900 --> 00:54:05,980 And just know that, you know, if you've experienced trauma, if you've experienced pain, if you've 715 00:54:05,980 --> 00:54:10,100 experienced hurt, that doesn't have to define you. 716 00:54:10,100 --> 00:54:15,580 You might be in a place where you're a scab, but know that becoming a scar is possible. 717 00:54:15,580 --> 00:54:20,900 And then you can use that hurt and pain you've experienced previously in your life to help 718 00:54:20,900 --> 00:54:22,500 other people heal. 719 00:54:22,500 --> 00:54:23,500 Lovely. 720 00:54:23,500 --> 00:54:28,620 How can our listeners reach out to you, David, should they want to do so? 721 00:54:28,620 --> 00:54:34,340 Well, I'm on Facebook and Twitter, David Lee Garlock. 722 00:54:34,340 --> 00:54:36,340 I'm on LinkedIn. 723 00:54:36,340 --> 00:54:41,060 They can always find you on LinkedIn and then just search my name there. 724 00:54:41,060 --> 00:54:48,180 For speaking opportunities, I have a website, DavidLGarlock.com. 725 00:54:48,180 --> 00:54:50,420 And I've never spoken across a pond. 726 00:54:50,420 --> 00:54:55,180 So you know, I would love for universities and other folks to reach out to me. 727 00:54:55,180 --> 00:54:57,460 I would love to come across a pond and speak. 728 00:54:57,460 --> 00:54:59,100 I have a passport. 729 00:54:59,100 --> 00:55:02,380 I have a board and I can travel anywhere. 730 00:55:02,380 --> 00:55:03,380 Lovely. 731 00:55:03,380 --> 00:55:10,060 David, I'll put your links onto the podcast and the bio, etc., so people can get to you 732 00:55:10,060 --> 00:55:11,220 very easily. 733 00:55:11,220 --> 00:55:12,900 Thank you so much for being a guest. 734 00:55:12,900 --> 00:55:18,620 It's been an absolute honour and a privilege speaking to you this evening or this afternoon. 735 00:55:18,620 --> 00:55:19,620 Thank you so much. 736 00:55:19,620 --> 00:55:21,660 And it was an honour for me too. 737 00:55:21,660 --> 00:55:22,660 Thank you. 738 00:55:22,660 --> 00:55:25,660 Thank you for listening. 739 00:55:25,660 --> 00:55:30,620 I hope you enjoy listening to the episode and learn some tips on how to manage your 740 00:55:30,620 --> 00:55:32,980 emotions in a healthy way. 741 00:55:32,980 --> 00:55:37,660 If you've been affected by anything in the podcast or if you want to share your feedback 742 00:55:37,660 --> 00:55:44,740 or questions, please email Claire at AngleManagementCoach.co.uk. 743 00:55:44,740 --> 00:55:50,820 Thank you for listening and do remember you have the power to calm your emotions and communicate 744 00:55:50,820 --> 00:56:05,620 effectively.