Pełna transkrypcja odcinka I'm So Worth It

00:05:14,770 --> 00:05:19,960 the prison system for women that need support with substance use 67 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:24,970 disorder. I am a person in long term recovery. I celebrate nine 68 00:05:24,970 --> 00:05:32,410 years this June. I work in a community that has been ravaged 69 00:05:32,410 --> 00:05:37,360 from opiates, and I see that there are support systems there, 70 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:41,050 but we don't know how to navigate to get to them. So I 71 00:05:41,050 --> 00:05:45,070 think that we need more people with the lived experience, like 72 00:05:45,070 --> 00:05:49,150 myself, that know how to navigate in the system [to] 73 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:53,860 prevent people from being incarcerated because we have 74 00:05:53,950 --> 00:06:00,910 substance use disorder or a mental health concern. It can be 75 00:06:00,910 --> 00:06:04,930 very, very challenging in the prison system, where they don't 76 00:06:04,930 --> 00:06:14,410 treat your, you know, the trauma or the support. They just aren't 77 00:06:14,410 --> 00:06:18,130 there. You know, it's you do your time, you get out, and 78 00:06:18,130 --> 00:06:22,540 you're on your own. And I think that if we start before we get 79 00:06:22,540 --> 00:06:26,830 into the prison system, then there wouldn't be a need for the 80 00:06:26,830 --> 00:06:29,170 prison. Thank you. 81 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:48,950 Nicole Blackson: Hi, I am Nicole Blackson with Love Now Media, 82 00:06:48,950 --> 00:06:53,300 and today I will be speaking with fellow Monique Taylor. So 83 00:06:53,300 --> 00:06:55,850 let's chat a little bit. You talked a lot about the gender 84 00:06:55,850 --> 00:06:58,940 wealth gap, and you took us all way back to your childhood of 85 00:06:58,940 --> 00:07:02,360 how you saw it kicking then when you went from a two parent 86 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,450 household with your mom and dad to a one parent household, which 87 00:07:05,450 --> 00:07:09,740 is living with your mom. Can you fast forward a little bit and 88 00:07:09,740 --> 00:07:12,380 tell me a little bit of those details of when you were in a 89 00:07:12,380 --> 00:07:15,800 carceral system and you saw that, when your mom had to take 90 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:20,240 care of your children, you needed more help and you 91 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,430 couldn't afford to get the bare essentials while you were in the 92 00:07:22,430 --> 00:07:25,160 carceral system. You said you worked. How much did you get 93 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:25,460 paid? 94 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:30,820 Monique Taylor: Yeah, $1.50 a day. So, it was like $22.50 95 00:07:30,820 --> 00:07:31,930 every two weeks. 96 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,940 Nicole Blackson: Every two weeks. And what could you get 97 00:07:33,940 --> 00:07:35,140 with the $22.50? 98 00:07:36,170 --> 00:07:38,270 Monique Taylor: Not much [laughs], you know, like I 99 00:07:38,270 --> 00:07:42,560 could, you know, get my necessities first. So, like, a 100 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,940 bar of soap would be like, $1.50/$1.25, and then they would 101 00:07:46,940 --> 00:07:52,100 have caps on, like, how much you could buy of this product. So, 102 00:07:52,670 --> 00:07:56,000 once I'm finished, like, getting my necessities. If I could get, 103 00:07:56,510 --> 00:07:59,600 you know, some oodles of noodles, or, you know, something 104 00:07:59,660 --> 00:08:02,990 pre-packaged, cheap - I would buy it. 105 00:08:03,510 --> 00:08:06,030 Nicole Blackson: Yeah, I think that's something to put a cap on 106 00:08:06,030 --> 00:08:10,200 what you can buy with your money that you earned. Yeah, it's 107 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:14,910 something. So also thinking about your story in regards to 108 00:08:15,270 --> 00:08:19,230 just like when you were home and you said you turned to substance 109 00:08:19,230 --> 00:08:22,470 use, you know, and you struggled with that for some years, but 110 00:08:22,470 --> 00:08:25,320 you also saw that there were a lot of other women who were in 111 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:28,890 the carceral system who struggled with that. How would 112 00:08:28,890 --> 00:08:31,650 you want the perception of those people to change? 113 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:38,860 Monique Taylor: First, you know, stigma. You know, stigma is 114 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:45,010 powerful. It really is. Stigma is something that you could 115 00:08:47,020 --> 00:08:52,210 persuade somebody's, you know, vision with stigma. You know, 116 00:08:52,210 --> 00:08:56,920 so, like, I would, like... I'm telling you, when I went into 117 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:01,420 the prison system, and I seen most of the women had some form 118 00:09:01,420 --> 00:09:06,190 of addiction like me, I was like, you know, well, where's 119 00:09:06,190 --> 00:09:11,110 the programs at, right? Like, where's the meeting at? Where is 120 00:09:11,140 --> 00:09:16,690 the 12 step self help groups at? And we didn't have any. So I 121 00:09:16,690 --> 00:09:22,510 would want people to look at this like, people that have a 122 00:09:22,510 --> 00:09:27,970 way out, and there is a way out, but can't get to the way out. 123 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:32,290 You know, it's easy to say, 'Oh, I have this, this and this, but 124 00:09:32,290 --> 00:09:36,460 how do I get this, this, and this from you, right?' You know, 125 00:09:36,460 --> 00:09:39,280 because we have lots of organizations with lots of 126 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:44,620 things in place, but getting to them, you know, it's like hoops 127 00:09:44,620 --> 00:09:45,190 of fire. 128 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:46,650 Nicole Blackson: Yeah. So what I'm hearing is, like, the 129 00:09:46,650 --> 00:09:50,130 accessibility to the supports as well, and that's why you're 130 00:09:50,130 --> 00:09:52,050 inside, but also why you're outside? 131 00:09:52,140 --> 00:09:56,280 Monique Taylor: Yes. So while we're inside, there's really no 132 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:00,600 supports. You know, you get all these pamphlets and

posters on 133 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,050 the boards in jail as you're walking down the hallway. They 134 00:10:04,050 --> 00:10:07,680 say, 'Oh, we have this, we have that.' But then when you get out 135 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,280 and you try to access the things that they had, it's like, 'Oh, 136 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:17,220 do you have insurance? You know, do you have an opiate addiction 137 00:10:17,220 --> 00:10:23,550 as opposed to a crack cocaine addiction?' So they they try to, 138 00:10:23,580 --> 00:10:28,470 like, start separating the drugs. And you can't separate 139 00:10:28,470 --> 00:10:33,300 the drug, because the drug does not have any prejudice. It 140 00:10:33,300 --> 00:10:36,210 doesn't care where you come from, what you look like...You 141 00:10:36,750 --> 00:10:41,400 know, what color you are, what gender you are. It doesn't 142 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:45,270 matter to the drug, so we have to take that concept on, like, 143 00:10:45,270 --> 00:10:49,260 it shouldn't matter to us. If you want help, we want to be 144 00:10:49,260 --> 00:10:50,250 here to help you. 145 00:10:51,540 --> 00:10:53,640 Nicole Blackson: So what made you go into this line of work? I 146 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:55,740 know you say you work in Kensington, and you're working 147 00:10:55,740 --> 00:10:59,940 with people who are in recovery as well. What made you go into 148 00:10:59,940 --> 00:11:00,570 this line of work? 149 00:11:02,310 --> 00:11:07,200 Monique Taylor: Because it takes one to know one. So, going into 150 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:13,260 the Kensington community where people are actively using, it 151 00:11:13,260 --> 00:11:16,350 takes a lot of courage. You know, especially for someone 152 00:11:16,350 --> 00:11:20,880 like myself; I am in long term recovery, but like I was 153 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:24,660 explaining to someone, sobriety and recovery are two different 154 00:11:24,660 --> 00:11:24,960 things. 155 00:11:24,990 --> 00:11:25,770 Nicole Blackson: Please explain it. 156 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:30,130 Monique Taylor: So, sobriety are people who actively don't use. 157 00:11:31,030 --> 00:11:37,120 Recovery is for people who don't use and work on their behavior. 158 00:11:37,540 --> 00:11:42,730 So, I had to work on me. You know, it was easy for me to want 159 00:11:42,730 --> 00:11:47,200 to help other people, but I needed help. You know, so I had 160 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:52,000 to help me, to help me, to help you. You see what I'm saying? 161 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:57,580 So, in the Kensington community, I love my community. I love 162 00:11:57,700 --> 00:12:01,720 everything about the community, even though, yeah, it's ugly. 163 00:12:01,990 --> 00:12:07,600 You know, you see drugs ravishing... there's nothing 164 00:12:07,630 --> 00:12:08,410 like it. 165 00:12:08,530 --> 00:12:12,820 Nicole Blackson: Yeah, yeah. It is. Just like it moves you to 166 00:12:12,820 --> 00:12:15,910 tears. It is something that leaves me

speechless at times 167 00:12:15,910 --> 00:12:20,050 when I see it. It almost looks like a zombie apocalypse of 168 00:12:20,050 --> 00:12:26,170 sorts. Where people are not able to just kind of be: walk 169 00:12:26,170 --> 00:12:30,730 upright, simple things, talk, you know, just move with some 170 00:12:30,730 --> 00:12:36,490 fluidity. It is something to see. It really is. So thinking 171 00:12:36,490 --> 00:12:41,350 about when you said, you know, you just had to start working on 172 00:12:41,350 --> 00:12:46,120 you. Can you tell us the time when you realized, 'I gotta get 173 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:46,660 Mo together?' 174 00:12:49,270 --> 00:12:52,990 Unknown: I'll never forget the time my mom had been diagnosed 175 00:12:52,990 --> 00:12:58,990 with stage four lung cancer, so that kind of motivated me to 176 00:12:59,020 --> 00:13:08,650 want to make her last days where she could be free from not 177 00:13:08,650 --> 00:13:15,160 feeling like she failed with me, you know, like... It's nothing 178 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:20,470 like having people who love you want to help you, but you have 179 00:13:20,470 --> 00:13:23,950 to help yourself first, yeah, and then you can get all the 180 00:13:23,950 --> 00:13:27,790 support that you want. But this is not for people who need it. 181 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,990 Recovery isn't for people who need it. Recovery is for people 182 00:13:31,990 --> 00:13:37,900 who want it. You know, and like, I needed a lot of things, and I 183 00:13:37,900 --> 00:13:43,660 wanted a lot of things, but I don't see any greater fight than 184 00:13:43,660 --> 00:13:45,130 to fight for your life. 185 00:13:45,190 --> 00:13:46,600 Nicole Blackson: Yeah, absolutely. 186 00:13:47,470 --> 00:13:50,800 Unknown: This is the best fight I've had [laughs], you know, 187 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:56,620 like, I'm so worth it. And the people that suffer substance use 188 00:13:56,620 --> 00:14:01,360 disorders, they have to realize that you're worth it too. You 189 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:02,380 know, so, yeah. 190 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,770 Nicole Blackson: You mentioned your mom a lot, and I know a 191 00:14:05,770 --> 00:14:09,730 little bit because we've been in conversation., What are some of 192 00:14:09,730 --> 00:14:13,480 the... what are some of the lessons that she taught you? Or 193 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:15,910 the encouragement that she gave you that you would want to tell 194 00:14:15,910 --> 00:14:16,810 the people in Kensington. 195 00:14:19,270 --> 00:14:22,150 Monique Taylor: One of the good things that I can say I learned 196 00:14:22,150 --> 00:14:27,550 from my mom is, you know, people can walk with you, but they 197 00:14:27,550 --> 00:14:33,250 can't walk for you. You know, and like, I can, I will be 198 00:14:33,250 --> 00:14:37,330 willing to walk anywhere with someone as long as they're 199 00:14:37,330 --> 00:14:42,490 walking with me. Like, my job is not a job if people don't allow 200 00:14:42,490 --> 00:14:47,500 us to help. And like, asking for help is not an easy thing to do. 201 00:14:47,860 --> 00:14:50,740 Like we always say, 'Well, why didn't you ask for help?' Well, 202 00:14:50,740 --> 00:14:54,010 if it was that easy, I would've asked [laughs]. You know, it's 203 00:14:54,010 --> 00:14:59,200 really a skill. It's something that you have to learn to do, 204 00:14:59,470 --> 00:15:02,620 because we're so self-reliant and self-willed. 205 00:15:05,870 --> 00:15:07,760 Nicole Blackson: What are some of the things that you... get 206 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,250 us, that you think get us to that self-reliance? 207 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:16,580 Monique Taylor: Just our humanism, like, you know, 208 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:19,430 self-willed. 209 00:15:20,180 --> 00:15:22,310 Nicole Blackson: So when you, let me say this, so when you say 210 00:15:22,310 --> 00:15:27,920 like, we are just conditioned to be so self-reliant and to be so 211 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:30,950 self-willing that we have a hard time asking for help. So, what 212 00:15:30,950 --> 00:15:32,570 gets in the way of us asking for help? 213 00:15:32,630 --> 00:15:38,270 Monique Taylor: Our ego, our pride. You know, shame. You 214 00:15:38,270 --> 00:15:42,650 know, the guilt of, like, usually, when we have to ask for 215 00:15:42,650 --> 00:15:48,080 help, for most of us in the world that I come from, it is 216 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:53,690 from a behavior that needs to be consequences for it. So, like, 217 00:15:53,690 --> 00:15:58,370 you know, begging at the mercy of the court, you know. And so, 218 00:15:58,370 --> 00:16:01,760 like, I never felt like I should have to ask for mercy from the 219 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:06,680 court. I'm suffering from a disease. Like, I'm sick, you 220 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,110 know what I'm saying? Like, and in the beginning of my 221 00:16:09,110 --> 00:16:15,530 addiction, it, substance use disorder, was not a disease, you 222 00:16:15,530 --> 00:16:19,550 know? So, like, you always gonna go to jail when they didn't look 223 00:16:19,550 --> 00:16:24,860 at it like that. So, like, where is the support and the help in 224 00:16:24,860 --> 00:16:29,840 that? You know, you locked me up, but yet you say I'm the one 225 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:30,620 who's sick [laughs]. 226 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,980 Nicole Blackson: Right, right? So, with the design, with women 227 00:16:33,980 --> 00:16:38,090 in mind, and with those who are experiencing substance disorder, 228 00:16:39,020 --> 00:16:40,340 what would be your call to action? 229 00:16:41,390 --> 00:16:43,610 Monique Taylor: Oh, I have so many of them, but my main - 230 00:16:43,610 --> 00:16:44,420 Nicole Blackson: - give me your top three. 231 00:16:44,380 --> 00:16:48,318 Monique Taylor: My, my main call to action is: if there is some 232 00:16:46,250 --> 00:17:37,880 Nicole Blackson: And not just treat the behaviors. 233 00:16:48,402 --> 00:16:53,178 form of consequence for

the behavior, so like most of the 234 00:16:53,262 --> 00:16:58,121 women that I know that are in substance use disorder, they 235 00:16:58,205 --> 00:17:03,317 street work. You know what I'm saying? They go hand in glove. 236 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:08,679 So, like, how do you remove them from the street, but you don't 237 00:17:08,763 --> 00:17:14,042 help them with the addiction? So I get, [it] all boils down to, 238 00:17:14,126 --> 00:17:18,986 something had to happen, just like for me - my parents got 239 00:17:19,070 --> 00:17:24,432 divorced, my depression set in, I didn't, couldn't identify with 240 00:17:24,516 --> 00:17:29,963 it, used drugs - so there's some form of trauma here. And we need 241 00:17:30,046 --> 00:17:34,152 to start opening up the floodgates so that we can 242 00:17:34,236 --> 00:17:36,080 address these traumas. 243 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:42,070 Monique Taylor: Yeah, everyone is different. So like, if we 244 00:17:42,070 --> 00:17:47,320 don't work on addressing traumas and mental health and having 245 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:52,300 access to support systems where they're not weeding us out 246 00:17:52,300 --> 00:17:55,480 because we don't fit this criteria, we don't fit that 247 00:17:55,480 --> 00:18:01,000 criteria, and making it inclusive. You know, we see 248 00:18:01,030 --> 00:18:08,620 another concern of mine was, in the LGBTQ community, how we see 249 00:18:08,620 --> 00:18:14,560 more people in the T category - the transgender people, Black 250 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:18,610 and Brown, with the highest rate of suicide, had the highest rate 251 00:18:18,610 --> 00:18:25,540 of substance use disorder... So we're starting to see that this 252 00:18:25,540 --> 00:18:30,100 is bigger than what we thought it was. You know, Kensington is 253 00:18:30,100 --> 00:18:36,520 just a symptom of a bigger issue. We can't always treat 254 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:41,050 behaviors, but we can always help treat the people that are 255 00:18:41,050 --> 00:18:43,570 suffering from their behaviors. 256 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:45,980 Nicole Blackson: Yeah. Thank you so much for joining me today. 257 00:18:46,130 --> 00:18:47,360 Thank you. I appreciate you always. 258 00:18:47,420 --> 00:18:49,220 Monique Taylor: I thank you too. Have a nice one. 259 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:50,000 Nicole Blackson: Thank you. 260 00:18:51,740 --> 00:18:55,132 Unknown: A note of context from WOMEN'S WAY. Medication assisted 261 00:18:55,194 --> 00:18:59,080 treatment is a research backed gold standard of care for opioid 262 00:18:59,141 --> 00:19:02,842 use disorder. Typically, there are three medications used to 263 00:19:02,904 --> 00:19:06,112 treat OUD or opioid use disorder, and they have been 264 00:19:06,173 --> 00:19:09,998 shown to be safe, feasible, and effective in reducing overdose 265 00:19:10,059 --> 00:19:13,884 deaths as a part of a long term treatment plan. While Medicaid 266 00:19:13,945 --> 00:19:17,893 can pay for medication assisted

treatment for someone who is not 267 00:19:17,955 --> 00:19:21,409 incarcerated, Federal law prohibits Medicaid from paying 268 00:19:21,471 --> 00:19:25,357 for this treatment while someone is incarcerated. This is known 269 00:19:25,418 --> 00:19:28,873 as the inmate exclusion. Treatment and recovery services 270 00:19:28,934 --> 00:19:32,759 can be the difference between life or death for those who have 271 00:19:32,820 --> 00:19:36,521 opioid use disorder, and the time period after incarceration 272 00:19:36,583 --> 00:19:39,914 can be an extremely critical time frame in the reentry 273 00:19:39,976 --> 00:19:43,553 journey. One report from the U.S. Department of Health and 274 00:19:43,615 --> 00:19:46,699 Human Services says that mortality among returning 275 00:19:46,761 --> 00:19:49,845 community members is significantly elevated in the 276 00:19:49,907 --> 00:19:53,731 post release period, especially in the week after release when 277 00:19:53,793 --> 00:19:57,740 overdose, suicide, and homicide are the leading causes of death. 278 00:19:57,802 --> 00:20:01,565 For those incarcerated folks who are returning home, they may 279 00:20:01,626 --> 00:20:04,957 face challenges such as inability to access and afford 280 00:20:05,019 --> 00:20:08,843 treatment, bureaucratic hurdles to reinstate Medicaid or apply 281 00:20:08,905 --> 00:20:12,359 for Medicaid, limited health record data sharing between 282 00:20:12,421 --> 00:20:16,122 carceral institutions and health providers, and the pressing 283 00:20:16,184 --> 00:20:19,700 needs to find housing, food, and employment upon release. 284 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:39,760 Kelly Sheard: Hello, my name is Kelly Sheard. I'm the Director 285 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,120 of the Gender Wealth Institute within WOMEN'S WAY. And I'm very 286 00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:46,300 pleased to be joined here by Carol Thomas, Director of 287 00:20:46,300 --> 00:20:49,990 Strategic Initiatives and Supportive Services at Project 288 00:20:49,990 --> 00:20:51,880 Home. Welcome, Carol. 289 00:20:53,140 --> 00:20:54,190 Carol Thomas: Thanks for having me. 290 00:20:54,220 --> 00:20:57,460 Kelly Sheard: Yes, yes, we are really appreciative to have your 291 00:20:57,460 --> 00:21:01,180 expertise and your experience to give us some context into the 292 00:21:01,210 --> 00:21:04,750 stories that we're hearing. So, I wonder if you can start off by 293 00:21:04,750 --> 00:21:08,530 talking about the connection between substance abuse and 294 00:21:08,530 --> 00:21:11,260 women who are incarcerated. How are they related? 295 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:17,960 Carol Thomas: Well, I'm going to start with a statistic. So, in 296 00:21:18,740 --> 00:21:26,690 2023, 72% of women were identified, who are 297 00:21:26,690 --> 00:21:31,580 incarcerated, as having a diagnosed substance abuse 298 00:21:31,580 --> 00:21:37,910 disorder where they fit the criteria. And now, the latest 299 00:21:37,940 --> 00:21:45,710 statistics, they have gone up

to about 85% and when you look at 300 00:21:45,740 --> 00:21:53,060 that, the correlation is so clear. Substance use actually 301 00:21:54,320 --> 00:22:00,680 impacts women in a very different way, and it's often 302 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:06,050 survival, it's often desperation, it's poor judgment, 303 00:22:06,050 --> 00:22:10,100 because they're caught up in the cycle of addiction. And when you 304 00:22:10,100 --> 00:22:17,210 compare that to the male statistic, only about 62% of men 305 00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:22,880 have been diagnosed with a substance use disorder, so it 306 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:28,400 really is a devastating impact on women. 307 00:22:29,150 --> 00:22:32,360 Kelly Sheard: Thank you for that. What are approaches for 308 00:22:32,360 --> 00:22:35,840 treating substance abuse disorders that do not involve 309 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,290 incarceration, and how do you think we should treat community 310 00:22:39,290 --> 00:22:42,500 members who harm others as a result of their addiction. What 311 00:22:42,500 --> 00:22:43,100 should we do? 312 00:22:44,530 --> 00:22:51,790 Carol Thomas: Well, there are multiple approaches. We have, in 313 00:22:51,790 --> 00:22:57,040 Philadelphia, which has been part of the restorative justice, 314 00:22:57,310 --> 00:23:03,460 as well as putting participants first in the behavioral health 315 00:23:03,460 --> 00:23:09,610 system, they have shored up the system so that there's options 316 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:17,830 for outpatient, intensive, probation, inpatient... We have 317 00:23:18,700 --> 00:23:26,560 psychotherapy, as well as a focus on CBT, which is Cognitive 318 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:31,720 Behavioral Therapy, along with Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, 319 00:23:31,900 --> 00:23:37,300 which are evidence based practices that help women who 320 00:23:37,300 --> 00:23:41,920 are in the throes of their addiction, and especially help 321 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:49,060 women who are incarcerated. So, and those folks can also, before 322 00:23:49,060 --> 00:23:54,280 they even get incarcerated, can be in pre chop trial status 323 00:23:54,580 --> 00:23:59,950 where they have options to get into these programs that can 324 00:23:59,950 --> 00:24:05,920 help them maintain family stability and community support. 325 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:12,100 So, there are multiple approaches, but they're not 326 00:24:12,100 --> 00:27:40,960 always easy to access for people. 327 00:24:23,420 --> 00:24:29,413 We really don't do a great job on having a clearing house where 328 00:24:29,508 --> 00:24:34,836 people know about all these services. So, unless you are 329 00:24:34,931 --> 00:24:40,830 working with a social worker or a social service organization, 330 00:24:40,925 --> 00:24:46,253 or even a peer organization that knows how to access the 331 00:24:46,348 --> 00:24:51,295 services, know they exist... there has always been a 332 00:24:51,391 --> 00:24:57,289 disconnect. And we are working on that with wellness fairs and 333 00:24:57,384 --> 00:25:02,807 various fairs, but you have to bring the people in. So if 334 00:25:02,903 --> 00:25:08,135 someone's in their active addiction, they'll walk right 335 00:25:08,230 --> 00:25:14,034 past the fair, unless there's some motivation to come in. And 336 00:25:14,129 --> 00:25:19,457 the second part you talked about, what should we do with 337 00:25:19,552 --> 00:25:25,260 community members who hurt? You have to define hurt. So what 338 00:25:25,356 --> 00:25:30,969 does that mean? Does it mean that if you went and you broke 339 00:25:31,064 --> 00:25:36,868 in a house and took the pipes out, or robbed somebody and you 340 00:25:36,963 --> 00:25:42,766 just robbed them and left? Yes, it's a terrible thing, and we 341 00:25:42,861 --> 00:25:49,045 don't condone it, but that's not hurt on the level that a violent 342 00:25:49,141 --> 00:25:54,944 crime happened. So you have to really look at the individual, 343 00:25:55,039 --> 00:26:00,748 and you have to look at the circumstances, and you don't put 344 00:26:00,843 --> 00:26:05,885 everyone who's under the influence in the same place. 345 00:26:05,980 --> 00:26:11,689 What you find is, you have to listen to stories. And, I've I 346 00:26:11,784 --> 00:26:17,397 had that experience for 18 years. I oversaw a licensed drug 347 00:26:17,492 --> 00:26:23,296 and alcohol affairs program for men coming out of prison. And 348 00:26:23,391 --> 00:26:29,099 they would always say, 'oh, you can't take anybody who is an 349 00:26:29,194 --> 00:26:34,903 arsonist.' And I said, 'hmm, an arsonist?', and I said, 'I'd 350 00:26:34,998 --> 00:26:40,897 like to go to prison and listen to people's stories.' I wanted 351 00:26:40,992 --> 00:26:46,129 to do the interview and not leave it up to a courtroom 352 00:26:46,224 --> 00:26:51,647 worker who said, 'this is an egregious crime.' And almost 353 00:26:51,743 --> 00:26:57,736 every arson crime had to do with the person smoking crack in an 354 00:26:57,832 --> 00:27:02,684 abandoned building and accidentally set it on fire. 355 00:27:02,779 --> 00:27:08,582 That is not arson. That is not an intent to harm. So, I asked 356 00:27:08,678 --> 00:27:14,671 the court, could we start taking them? And I asked my staff, as 357 00:27:14,766 --> 00:27:20,760 well as myself, can we go in and interview people? We needed to 358 00:27:20,855 --> 00:27:26,564 hear the stories. We need to hear what the individual has to 359 00:27:26,659 --> 00:27:32,558 say about their life. Because once you're incarcerated, you're 360 00:27:32,653 --> 00:27:38,361 sitting there, and you can't help but think about your life. 361 00:27:38,456 --> 00:27:44,450 But, oftentimes, people in the throes of their addiction, don't 362 00:27:44,545 --> 00:27:50,634 have insight into the harm that they have caused. So, if it's no 363 00:27:50,729 --> 00:27:56,723 harm hurt, I mean, it has some harm, but there was no violence. 364 00:27:56,818 -->

00:28:02,336 I think people should be given the opportunity to have the 365 00:28:02,432 --> 00:28:07,379 opportunity to go out and get help, to work on their 366 00:28:07,474 --> 00:28:12,802 addiction, to work on their behavioral health - which is 367 00:28:12,897 --> 00:28:18,034 substance abuse and mental health. So, we need to give 368 00:28:18,130 --> 00:28:23,933 people choices and options, and also educate them about those 369 00:28:24,028 --> 00:28:29,927 choices and option. And I can speak to, if someone has engaged 370 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:34,030 Why is that? Can you talk a little bit about that? Why is it 371 00:28:30,022 --> 00:28:35,540 in a violent crime, there should be consequences for their 372 00:28:35,635 --> 00:28:41,534 actions. And, having worked in the forensic system, there were 373 00:28:37,090 --> 00:28:46,480 hard to access these multiple approaches? 374 00:28:41,629 --> 00:28:46,767 people who came out and had to be sent back because of 375 00:28:46,862 --> 00:28:52,570 behaviors of continued criminal activity, not continued drug 376 00:28:52,665 --> 00:28:58,850 use, but criminal activity. So, you have to make the distinction. 377 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:03,760 Kelly Sheard: It sounds like the time and space to reflect and 378 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,180 understand nuance is important when thinking about what's the 379 00:29:07,180 --> 00:29:09,970 right approach for helping someone with substance abuse 380 00:29:09,970 --> 00:29:13,780 disorder. And, you know, the carceral system is not always 381 00:29:14,170 --> 00:29:16,930 the right approach, but we need some space to be able to 382 00:29:16,930 --> 00:29:21,400 consider that, which is important. One last question for 383 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,490 you, what is the one thing you think community members should 384 00:29:24,490 --> 00:29:28,450 understand as we think about creating healing conditions for 385 00:29:28,450 --> 00:29:31,540 folks who are returning home from incarceration? 386 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:37,870 Carol Thomas: When I looked at that question, it's very hard to 387 00:29:37,870 --> 00:29:45,640 pare it down to one thing, but if I had to, I would say that we 388 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:52,420 need to have a system that embraces people for who they 389 00:29:52,420 --> 00:29:57,790 are. They are returning citizens. They are our mothers, 390 00:29:58,030 --> 00:30:03,820 our sisters, our cousins, our friends, our lovers. And, 391 00:30:04,300 --> 00:30:10,870 acceptance. There's so much stigma with having been 392 00:30:11,530 --> 00:30:17,650 incarcerated. I don't use the word offender, because, okay, 393 00:30:17,710 --> 00:30:22,870 you committed a crime. You also have been incarcerated. You did 394 00:30:22,870 --> 00:30:27,460 the time. You are now a person who is returning to the 395 00:30:27,460 --> 00:30:36,220 community. And, if I could do one thing, I would have peers. I 396 00:30:36,220 --> 00:30:41,320 would have, create a peer program for every person who is 397 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:48,370 coming out of our county jails. Right now, we only have 363 398 00:30:48,490 --> 00:30:55,810 women incarcerated in the county system in Pennsylvania. We can 399 00:30:55,900 --> 00:31:02,800 absolutely, absolutely create and put money to good use to 400 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:09,190 create peers, to create a peer support network, to help people 401 00:31:09,250 --> 00:31:12,400 make that transition that is so hard. 402 00:31:13,260 --> 00:31:15,600 Kelly Sheard: It sounds like we will heal in community, and I 403 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,920 thank you for reminding us of that. I wish we had more time to 404 00:31:19,980 --> 00:31:22,830 take a deeper dive, but I appreciate all your expertise. 405 00:31:22,830 --> 00:31:23,610 Thank you, Carol. 406 00:31:23,650 --> 00:31:24,820 Carol Thomas: Thank you for inviting me. 407 00:31:26,380 --> 00:31:27,940 Kelly Sheard: Thanks for listening to behind [Beyond] the 408 00:31:27,940 --> 00:31:31,000 Razor Wire Fence. This podcast is brought to you in 409 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,540 collaboration with WOMEN'S WAY, Change the Narrative fellows, 410 00:31:34,690 --> 00:31:37,360 Love Now Media and lil' Drummaboy Recordings.