Volledige transcriptie van UP577 Spin Class: The Premier League, Man City and the battle over the story

that's, the ongoing challenge of a, being a regulator and not being, not being able to, you know, and do things that, other entities and other bodies have ca- 00:05:10.769 --> 00:05:11.322 It's interesting. 00:05:11.331 --> 00:05:13.175 Again, Nick, your, welcome your view on this. 00:05:13.189 --> 00:05:17.814 It's just quite interesting'cause you've got the, you've got the noises of, of the football regulator as well. 00:05:17.814 --> 00:05:19.350 And people are confused. 00:05:19.353 --> 00:05:25.451 And when you use the word regulator, Dan, obviously people's mind will go to the other regulator, the David Kogan regulator. 00:05:25.454 --> 00:05:26.495 Sorry, Nick, I interrupted you. 00:05:26.995 --> 00:05:31.199 No, I was going to say in terms of the Premier League, the Premier League have obviously taken this very seriously. 00:05:31.560 --> 00:05:35.521 this time of year eight years ago, they actually launched their investigation. 00:05:35.531 --> 00:05:49.040 Since when they've been pretty much leak-proof, determined not to say anything, not to make the kind of mistakes that UEFA made back in 2020 when there were leaks and City could use that to their advantage to say the process was leaky. 00:05:49.490 --> 00:05:55.963 So, you know, I've got pretty decent contacts at the Premier League and have done for many years, and believe me, it's been leak-proof. 00:05:56.384 --> 00:06:09.687 You know, i-in 2021, three years after the investigation was launched, I discovered through some documents that were put into the public domain briefly by accident, the High Court battle between, City and the Premier League. 00:06:10.137 --> 00:06:23.324 This was raging intensely in secret and, you know, I wrote a story about that then, and the Premier League wouldn't comment, and Man City obviously have said no comment to me for, 12 years, I think, at this point of this story. 00:06:23.586 --> 00:06:27.829 So you've got the Premier League taking it very seriously and being leak-proof. 00:06:27.829 --> 00:06:36.572 we know from noises off and from various reports that have come out, that the parties knew the ruling back in July. 00:06:36.983 --> 00:06:50.269 And I think it's probably safe to assume that if Manchester City have behaved since July like they have in the whole eight years of this investigation, they've stymied it and taken whatever action they can to delay the publication of the core report and the key findings of the independent commission. 00:06:50.728 --> 00:07:02.550 I'm pretty sure the Premier League would like to be able to publish the full report, not just the 40 pages, but 900 pages or it is, as soon as possible, and they would like to set a timeline, but that's out with their hands. 00:07:02.997 --> 00:07:05.949 and I'm sure that Man City will continue just... 00:07:06.074 --> 00:07:14.367 you look at behavior as an indicator of current and future behavior, then Manchester City will still be trying to stymie and obfuscate and drag this out

as long as possible. 00:07:14.725 --> 00:07:16.822 So none of us actually know the timeline. 00:07:16.822 --> 00:07:23.415 We know the timeline, the appeal, to the verdict should be done and dusted by 21st of January, I think it is, at the latest. 00:07:23.415 --> 00:07:24.228 It could be earlier. 00:07:24.343 --> 00:07:25.158 It won't be longer. 00:07:25.903 --> 00:07:28.007 don't know when the sanctions hearing is going to be. 00:07:28.009 --> 00:07:31.942 We don't know when the appeal to that will be, but there will be an appeal almost inevitably. 00:07:32.418 --> 00:07:48.613 In terms of, David Kogan, the regulator, he's been pretty, steadfast and very, very clear that were there to be any interference, he started to look into it, if the guilty verdicts were upheld on appeal, and he will look at it in that circumstance, that he would resign if there was any kind of political interference. 00:07:48.958 --> 00:08:06.593 So that again another thread of this story, of which there are many threads to do with Manchester City Football Club, to do with its players, to do with its fans, to do with punishments, to do with the implications of the punishments, the geopolitical, threads around, the UAE being a key political and financial ally of the UK. 00:08:06.942 --> 00:08:12.269 so many potential threads depending on what the final outcome is after all appeals. 00:08:12.790 --> 00:08:13.100 Right. 00:08:13.716 --> 00:08:15.507 Let's talk about Man City then. 00:08:15.678 --> 00:08:32.802 You mentioned there, Nick, and I'll point people towards your piece that you did on Substack this week about the various people in the media who are, taking the City point of view, let's put it that way, and putting it out there into football and across other media. 00:08:32.803 --> 00:08:34.254 Let's talk about that for a minute. 00:08:34.783 --> 00:08:36.634 what do you suspect is happening? 00:08:36.784 --> 00:08:41.716 Do you think this is orchestrated or do you think this is just City fans in the media having a go? 00:08:41.722 --> 00:08:44.678 You think there's something, an organizing principle behind it? 00:08:44.696 --> 00:08:46.418 Do you think money is exchanging hands? 00:08:46.918 --> 00:08:49.514 I think there is an element of that. 00:08:49.663 --> 00:08:53.538 just to give your listeners and viewers some context of why I wrote that piece. 00:08:53.539 --> 00:09:50.586 A number of contacts of mine who work in broadcast media, be that radio or television, sort of in discussions about this whole subject said to me, you know,"Have you thought about looking at just quite how many paid City ambassadors are talking across the media about this subject?" a couple of these people were saying,"Look, it's fine to have a Manchester City ambassador like Joleon Lescott or Micah Richards being on Sky or CBS or Match of the Day or wherever, but these broadcasters, including the BBC, should be upfront about the fact that these people do have official role at Manchester

City." Now, I mentioned in that piece also that, you know, I applauded Nedum Onuoha because he was on the"Sports Agents" last week the week before, and he said upfront,"I'm, I'm very conflicted in this because I still work for Manchester City." He does hospitality work and other work. 00:09:50.586 --> 00:09:52.394 So fronts it up and then-- And that's fine. 00:09:52.395 --> 00:10:00.221 Whatever he says, defending City or not, at least the viewer and listener has got the context that they might be paid by City. 00:10:00.461 --> 00:10:06.149 and as I've said, it doesn't mean that Nedum wouldn't still be very dedicated to Manchester City, a club, you know, where he 00:10:06.326 --> 00:10:06.691 Yeah 00:10:06.730 --> 00:10:07.798 he was nine years old and... 00:10:08.599 --> 00:10:16.985 but I, the people who were sort of urging me to look at that story were saying,"At least declare your interests before giving your opinion." So there's that side, lots 00:10:17.065 --> 00:10:19.386 I, let's, we just land on that for a minute? 00:10:19.386 --> 00:10:22.447 'Cause I think it's really interesting, and I know we'll get into other things as well. 00:10:22.447 --> 00:10:26.495 But, Dan, again, that, I find that bit really interesting. 00:10:26.496 --> 00:10:30.826 So you get to a situation where, so Do you... 00:10:31.573 --> 00:10:48.413 We are, we are always projecting onto Gary Neville, Carragher, Thierry Henry, their position, their starting point, their prior position in any football question based on their playing sort of background and their history with the club. 00:10:48.413 --> 00:10:51.360 They're former players of Arsenal, the Red Cartel. 00:10:51.640 --> 00:10:55.392 I can see, I can hear Man City fans already, you know, shouting. 00:10:55.840 --> 00:11:03.163 what do you think about that Because if I was Gary Neville, if I were, you know, they slag off Man United, that gets in the news. 00:11:03.350 --> 00:11:12.302 It's a really complicated thing, and you get to the sort of distance question and it's journalism versus creators or versus punditry or whatever it is. 00:11:12.306 --> 00:11:13.434 But what do you think about that? 00:11:14.197 --> 00:11:26.991 They're sort of almost proxies for arguments, but actually it's quite an interesting idea if you then present your,"Okay, I am being paid by Man City and this is my view." It's up to fans to... 00:11:27.164 --> 00:11:28.135 And they do it anyway. 00:11:28.148 --> 00:11:33.355 It's a sort of meta thing that when you're listening to punditry that you're sort making that judgment anyway. 00:11:33.357 --> 00:11:38.006 So it's assumed that Micah Richards is gonna be pumping out Man City narrative 00:11:38.506 --> 00:11:41.518 Well, from a communications perspective, like, 00:11:41.591 --> 00:11:41.818 Yeah 00:11:41.937 --> 00:11:47.033 like as a comms director, I would call that a kind of third-party endorser network. 00:11:47.489 --> 00:11:53.543 And so you'd have people who are kind of sympathetic and understanding, and people you can have conversations with. 00:11:54.001 --> 00:12:11.178 now obviously I think, and again, I think it's an interesting kind of phenomenon in, broadcast media that actually now we kind of, like, or they have started to revel more in their kind of their fandom and their partisanship, whereas in the past they probably dialed it down a bit. 00:12:11.642 --> 00:12:19.600 But now, you know, whether it's, you know, Gary Neville and Jamie Carragher on the kind of Man United-Liverpool game, you know, they kind of turn the volume up on that. 00:12:19.885 --> 00:12:27.738 and there's kind of cutaways of them, like in doing co-coms with like their heads in their hands or celebrating in each other's faces or whatever. 00:12:28.615 --> 00:12:29.317 Do you think there's a light? 00:12:29.317 --> 00:12:35.625 Just so, just on that,'cause again, you're right in that it's always happened and we would all, you know, it comes with the territory. 00:12:35.706 --> 00:12:39.552 And this talks to the sort of growth of the business of sport, he says on a business of sport podcast. 00:12:39.990 --> 00:12:55.972 But there is something else happening here where you're getting people talking about, you know, footballers on the law and footballers on geopolitics and, you know, again, we'll get to Abu Dhabi in a minute in terms of, and the bigger things that are at play, which makes this story so interesting. 00:12:56.264 --> 00:12:57.971 But is, does that matter? 00:12:57.989 --> 00:13:12.738 When can I can sort of take, it doesn't really matter what I, what I think about Jamie Carragher or Gary Neville or Micah Richards and their relative bias to what's going on on the pitch, and then you get to the managers that they're a bit, you know, they like or don't like or whatever. 00:13:13.491 --> 00:13:14.748 That's about football. 00:13:14.756 --> 00:13:17.264 This is broader than that, isn't it? 00:13:17.293 --> 00:13:19.751 So you're getting out, you're getting to the outer rings 00:13:20.745 --> 00:13:23.475 but it's, I mean, it's always been broader than that, I think. 00:13:23.655 --> 00:13:27.230 you know, I think about ownership, you know, the direction of the club. 00:13:27.634 --> 00:13:42.634 You know, it's just again, the, given nature and the growth of the Premier League and the fact that you do have to kind of pull in these kind of geopolitical calculations now just by the sheer dent of the kind of ownership, you know, profile of the, the clubs. 00:13:42.832 --> 00:13:49.232 You know, now you start getting people sort of commenting, a kind of particular kind of, type of, type of ownership. 00:13:49.232 --> 00:14:03.321 So, you know, whether it was, United going to a PLC or the Glazers or, I remember as a Newcastle fan, throughout the'80s there was like, massive kind of commentary around the, boardroom battle between the McKaigs and the Halls. 00:14:03.745 --> 00:14:05.979 So it's kind of been there to a certain extent.

00:14:06.273 --> 00:14:15.190 again, I just think it's people are more acutely aware of it and acutely aware of it in these kind of acute situations. 00:14:15.687 --> 00:14:30.188 think to Nick's point, I think people will see that, know, and they will see that, you know, Micah or whoever has a particular kind of point of view because of their kind of overt connection with the, with the club. 00:14:30.568 --> 00:14:38.082 And I think because of that kind of fandom kind of element has been dialed up, actually serves as a kind of form of transparency 00:14:38.958 --> 00:14:52.144 I think we also have to consider ex-players who have a natural affiliation to be in the club's corner, whether they're paid ambassadors or not, that's fine, and people can agree or disagree whether they should be declaring it each time they make an appearance. 00:14:52.522 --> 00:15:04.022 But there's a separate group of people who've been advocating on behalf of Manchester City in recent weeks And the there's a serious question mark over whether they're being paid to pump out a message that they're being fed by Abu Dhabi. 00:15:04.023 --> 00:15:05.842 And one of those people is Pep Guardiola. 00:15:06.307 --> 00:15:16.953 On the 29th of September, the Premier League released the, astonishing statement that had the word sham in it five times and the core report of the IC's findings. 00:15:16.953 --> 00:15:28.962 And on the 30th September, Pep or Pep- Team Pep, as his official Twitter account is known, released this gobsmacking statement where he talks about he'll always be with them, my chairman, my owner, all this. 00:15:29.017 --> 00:15:30.576 I mean, such guff. 00:15:30.868 --> 00:15:37.418 There is no way on God's earth Pep Guardiola was sitting in his living room with his mobile phone tweeting that himself. 00:15:37.446 --> 00:15:41.688 That message had been scripted and sent to his PR team and put up. 00:15:41.746 --> 00:15:48.861 if anyone wants, if Pep wants to get in touch and say,"No, I actually typed it myself and it wasn't fed to me and to my PR team," Pep, take that back. 00:15:49.163 --> 00:15:53.875 But that was clearly a concerted message which made headlines around the world within minutes of it happening. 00:15:54.346 --> 00:15:59.275 And Pep is a paid ambassador for City Football Group, Manchester City's, parent company. 00:15:59.288 --> 00:16:03.576 He's paid to give technical advice, but he is bought and paid for by Manchester City still. 00:16:03.897 --> 00:16:07.630 And I would have think that message on that single tweet orchestrated. 00:16:08.090 --> 00:16:12.311 Just on that again, I'm gonna, gonna-- Sorry, just, there's a past and future question, isn't there? 00:16:12.388 --> 00:16:15.620 So that feels like someone defending their legacy. 00:16:15.638 --> 00:16:19.750 So there's the sort of the last 10 years and the City story and all of that. 00:16:19.913 --> 00:16:26.061 Is that now, you know, the caveat, asterisk bit of this in terms of, you

know, what have we been watching? 00:16:26.061 --> 00:16:26.778 Has it been real? 00:16:26.976 --> 00:16:31.389 So he's-- and the Guardiola thing is just so enmeshed in that. 00:16:31.804 --> 00:16:36.585 And then you've also got the future bit in terms of what's happening next. 00:16:36.648 --> 00:16:39.647 That felt like someone protecting their own legacy 00:16:40.147 --> 00:16:47.268 but I, it also felt like me a pretty obvious, defense of the UAE fed to him from somebody higher up. 00:16:47.913 --> 00:16:49.046 me, that's what it felt like. 00:16:49.047 --> 00:16:57.804 But not only that, in 2022, Pep Guardiola said that if City were found guilty of charges, he would walk away the next day because he'd been lied to. 00:16:58.110 --> 00:17:04.980 So he's had a volte-face on his own position from saying if, you know, I've always been told we're innocent and we will prove ourselves innocent. 00:17:05.007 --> 00:17:07.242 If I'm lied to, I will be out of the club the next day. 00:17:07.608 --> 00:17:10.162 I think that's in my piece, the quote from 2022. 00:17:10.477 --> 00:17:25.635 And now here he is after a definitive guilty verdict subject to appeal, where he's saying,"I stand with you, my chairman, my owner." there's, is that issue with Pep and he, and he is still employed, bought and paid for by the UAE. 00:17:25.648 --> 00:17:26.298 that was Pep. 00:17:26.346 --> 00:17:41.006 The other two people I was gonna mention specifically is the former Sun editor, David Yelland, who's got PR company and is a lifelong Man City fan, who has been relentlessly pumping out a pro-City message for, since whenever, the 29th of September. 00:17:41.288 --> 00:17:46.797 Day after day after day talking about, you know, the club does believe they're innocent. 00:17:46.817 --> 00:17:49.507 They have got this comprehensive body of irrefutable evidence. 00:17:49.511 --> 00:17:50.657 Everybody should pipe down. 00:17:50.662 --> 00:17:54.369 The media are being a disgrace reporting the guilty verdicts, all this stuff. 00:17:54.770 --> 00:18:04.138 And I asked him via X directly,"David, are you working as a paid PR to pump out this sort of drivel?" on X. 00:18:04.742 --> 00:18:08.296 you being paid directly in cash or for benefits in kind for doing this message? 00:18:08.296 --> 00:18:15.086 And he replied to me by saying,"That's none of your business, Nick." Not no, which is a simple answer, but it's none of your business. 00:18:15.376 --> 00:18:16.923 So we're left to make up our own minds. 00:18:16.924 --> 00:18:24.384 Is David Yelland in fact working in his capacity as a PR man with a PR company to pump out a pro-UAE message? 00:18:24.785 --> 00:18:35.836 And the other person I asked the same question to was the journalist, in inverted commas/influencer Fabrizio Romano, who again, didn't-- hasn't reported on the nuts and bolts of the case or the guilty verdicts. 00:18:35.836 --> 00:18:43.826 And when asked tonight, he said,"Oh, I generally do transfer stuff." But

since the verdict, everything, every message he's tweeted about Manchester City has been positive. 00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:46.601 know, what a great win today. 00:18:46.713 --> 00:18:48.837 You know, the man of the match? 00:18:48.837 --> 00:18:49.634 Superb stuff. 00:18:49.637 --> 00:18:51.862 It's all relentlessly positively Man City. 00:18:52.268 --> 00:19:03.156 Now we know that Fab has got his own PR company at the moment, and we know that he has worked with different bodies and agencies and clubs to pump out messages in favor of them. 00:19:03.207 --> 00:19:13.090 And again, I asked Fabrizio, you being paid by Manchester City to post all positive stuff about the club, or are you in receipt of benefits in kind for doing so?" And he didn't even reply to me. 00:19:13.439 --> 00:19:15.496 So again, don't know. 00:19:15.679 --> 00:19:17.880 So you've got these different categories of people. 00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:21.873 You've got the ex-players who would naturally be positive about the club, whether they're paid or not. 00:19:22.346 --> 00:19:30.028 You've got Pep, who, over whom I think there's a big question mark as to exactly what motivated his statement on the 30th of September. 00:19:30.067 --> 00:19:37.337 And then you've got people like Yelland and Romano, who I have questions about, and I've asked them and they haven't answered me 00:19:37.837 --> 00:19:47.421 But in essence, that, and we and we might not like this because it's definitely on the kind of side of the dark arts of of PR and communications. 00:19:47.760 --> 00:19:54.390 That is Man City's comms team or comms advisors or PR company, whoever's doing it, doing their job. 00:19:54.857 --> 00:19:55.342 Yeah 00:19:55.400 --> 00:20:10.598 are kind of orchestrating their kind of, you know, allies and whether they're paid or whether they're just kind of sympathetic into a kind of cohesive set of messages about how they want to kind of frame the independent commission's, verdict. 00:20:10.775 --> 00:20:17.826 You know, the fact it's, it's an opinion, it's a conspiracy theory, you know, the full process hasn't been gone through yet. 00:20:18.236 --> 00:21:00.798 And that's kind of part of a kind of clearly an orchestrated broader strategy, which again, as Nick alluded to, has been the of, you know, go-to, strategy for Manchester City in terms of all of that, in terms of their dealings with UEFA, in terms of their dealings, with the Premier League to try and kind of, obfuscate, kick the can down the road, wait for mistakes, put pressure on, whether it's member clubs, you know, my Lord, the, the legal fees are out of control, or, you know, the, the whole kind of commercial future of the Premier League is cast in doubt because, you know, because of this, to try and kind of find a way. 00:21:00.805 --> 00:21:10.286 So, you know, whether they're waiting for a mistake waiting for someone to fold, that is obviously part of their overall kind of strategy to fight this case. 00:21:10.575 --> 00:21:11.042 It's interesting. 00:21:11.128 --> 00:21:11.287 and 00:21:11.336 --> 00:21:11.675 Yeah 00:21:12.068 --> 00:21:12.769 agree with Dan. 00:21:12.809 --> 00:21:19.420 It is the comms department and the higher-ups within City and City Football Group who are orchestrating kind of thing. 00:21:19.420 --> 00:21:26.090 But as a journalist, I think I'm within my rights to ask David Yelland and Fabrizio Romano, are you being paid by Manchester City? 00:21:26.092 --> 00:21:30.582 Because it, does throw light on what's happening, and I think transparency is a good thing. 00:21:30.583 --> 00:21:46.428 But I don't disagree with anything Dan's just said, that it's comms people doing a comms job, just as Man City have been doing a comms job pretty much since 2014 when they were first, you know, found guilty of breaking, UEFA's FFP rules and they had their initial€60 million, euro fine. 00:21:46.430 --> 00:21:57.571 And ever since 2014, they've pretty much been saying,"No comment." and I've covered this story for 15 years, since 2011, my relations with Man City were always pretty cordial. 00:21:57.573 --> 00:22:00.118 But after 2014, they kind of really clammed up. 00:22:00.722 --> 00:22:30.131 And then after the leaks came out in 2018, the football leaks published by Der Spiegel, of course, you know, my relationships with key people at Manchester City, which had been very good for many years, crumbled were destroyed because City then stuck to this message that the agenda against our club is organized and clear, their messaging very much became, we are the victims of some kind of you know, victims of the Red Cartel, which by the way, is obviously a totally bollocks concept, but that's a different argument. 00:22:30.405 --> 00:22:33.104 you know, their message had been very clear that they are the victims here, 00:22:33.207 --> 00:22:35.875 don't Nick, don't knock bollocks concepts, Nick, by the way. 00:22:35.876 --> 00:22:39.221 They're, you know, it's, they're very important to the future of podcasting and bollock. 00:22:39.420 --> 00:22:41.731 The bollocks concept might be the title of this, this whole... 00:22:41.749 --> 00:22:42.853 It might be a series in that. 00:22:43.021 --> 00:22:43.931 Of this episode. 00:22:43.978 --> 00:22:44.303 Yeah. 00:22:44.615 --> 00:22:56.480 But anyway, the point is that since 2018, they've taken this very strong line, consistent line that the agenda against Manchester City is organized and clear, and there's a conspiracy against them, and they're innocent and everybody else has got it wrong. 00:22:56.836 --> 00:22:58.403 And again, that's just a comms message. 00:22:58.403 --> 00:23:00.423 And fine, it's comms people doing a comms job. 00:23:00.903 --> 00:23:01.999 But, yeah, 00:23:02.114 --> 00:23:25.207 Okay, let's, let's-- we've mentioned a few, so Abu Dhabi, and then you've got Andy Burnham and the and Number 10, and that bit of this, because I think one of the, one of the parts that I was wondering, and

there's a so City have spent a long time saying this has been sort of private investment and not a state project. 00:23:25.446 --> 00:23:31.624 And we won't be able to get to who's pulling the strings ultimately, because again, a lot of the smoke on is it's Abu Dhabi. 00:23:31.624 --> 00:23:32.192 Follow the money. 00:23:32.192 --> 00:23:37.317 It's the richest people in the world, and they are, orchestrating a great deal of this. 00:23:37.713 --> 00:23:56.422 And then you get to Andy Burnham and his statement, but also his background in Manchester as the mayor of Manchester, and you could sort of start to see, he, oh, straight away the comms side of this, I imagine, Dan, you know, would've been,"Okay, right, what do we do about this? 00:23:56.422 --> 00:24:10.441 What story are we going to get out?" Or, what lines can we take here because this is gonna come at us for obvious reasons?" It took a, you know, it was a second bounce type story, but it definitely is there now. 00:24:10.941 --> 00:24:18.030 Well, I think the issue was that basically An-- well, Andy is a noted football fan. 00:24:18.036 --> 00:24:20.948 It's kind of part of his kind of image and makeup. 00:24:21.374 --> 00:24:30.846 And I think it's one of those kind of issues where his, maybe his team or maybe he thinks that,"Oh, well, I know football and I know about that, so I don't have to kind of 00:24:31.317 --> 00:24:31.690 Yeah 00:24:32.294 --> 00:24:36.359 the same level of intellectual rigor to the kind of responses. 00:24:36.359 --> 00:24:40.740 I can almost kind of react, you know, authentically," for want of a better word. 00:24:41.476 --> 00:24:52.288 And I think that's what happened in that Chris Mason interview, is that, you know, Chris kind of like, you know, had his list of kind of post-conference kind of wash-up questions. 00:24:52.290 --> 00:25:00.743 Obviously, the Man City issue was live and he chucked it in, and Andy kind of, I think, an-answered it, cl-slightly clumsily and slightly unthinkingly. 00:25:01.542 --> 00:25:05.019 And then that gave it kind of legs, you know. 00:25:05.019 --> 00:25:08.787 It gave it kind of like, you know, a good 24 hours worth of legs. 00:25:09.150 --> 00:25:14.571 And then quite swiftly after that, you know, number 10 kind of moved in. 00:25:14.946 --> 00:25:18.323 they contextualized, they kind of separated it out, you know. 00:25:18.339 --> 00:25:31.945 They made sure that, you know, the Premier League and the, you know, independent commission process was kind of separate, you know, to any kind of concerns about, Abu Dhabi, Ab-Abu Dhabi's kind of state investment and, you know, broader relationship with the UK. 00:25:32.178 --> 00:25:37.967 The problem is, is once the, once the cat is out of the bag, even if it's like a mistake, kind of there. 00:25:38.385 --> 00:25:49.803 And so, you know, the you know, op-the op-the opposition used it as a kind of stick to beat Andy with, you know, and kind of undermine the kind of concept of Manchesterism. 00:25:50.023 --> 00:26:08.112 So I think kind of an interesting, it's an interesting, kind of sideshow in terms of, I think, how a lot of people still in the more kind of mainstream elements of the media, in politics, still approach football as a kind of playpen issue, and it's not a playpen issue anymore. 00:26:08.362 --> 00:26:21.375 It's a serious big business with geopolitical ramifications, and you need to think carefully about how you kind of position yourselves when you're, when you're speaking about these, about these processes. 00:26:21.875 --> 00:26:36.617 I can just add that initial response to Chris Mason about how he would be sad to see the owners of Manchester City leave because they've been such, I'm quoting not verbatim, but he said that the owners have been such a major part of the building of modern Manchester. 00:26:36.644 --> 00:26:38.289 He was really bigging up the owners. 00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:48.465 He was also fairly equivocal in that initial interview of saying,"Well, when the verdicts are in, you know, we can explore this and that." The verdicts were already in by the point that he gave the interview. 00:26:48.465 --> 00:27:01.358 he did, he did make a mistake and then that did set the hare running and that meant even in recent days, The Sun, The Mail, others have been digging around for precisely how many free football tickets did he have at the Etihad? 00:27:01.377 --> 00:27:04.317 How many private dinners did he have with Khaldoon Al Mubarak? 00:27:04.912 --> 00:27:09.544 Do a Google image search of Andy Burnham Khaldoon and you'll find lots of pictures over a long period of time. 00:27:10.515 --> 00:27:13.951 I'm not saying he did anything wrong Manchester mayor because he was doing his job. 00:27:13.965 --> 00:27:17.307 He was encouraging large amounts of inward investment and having a relationship. 00:27:17.307 --> 00:27:20.109 I don't think that in itself there's anything wrong with that. 00:27:20.109 --> 00:27:26.642 But he did make life difficult for himself and people will be digging because now there's a perception that he's too close. 00:27:26.691 --> 00:27:35.364 And I'm sure he won't interfere in the process because it would be political suicide for him to do so, because if it were discovered that he'd interfered, he's, he'd, he'd be dead politically. 00:27:35.731 --> 00:27:41.650 he did swerve one even more potentially embarrassing incident. 00:27:41.913 --> 00:27:45.150 and by swerve I mean it was, it was tragic, in tragic circumstances. 00:27:45.150 --> 00:27:50.419 But on the 14th of September, Jonathan Reynolds hosted Khaldoon in at 10 Downing Street. 00:27:50.919 --> 00:28:02.031 you know, we're led to believe from reports and briefings that at that meeting, Khaldoon made it quite clear that a negative outcome for City might influence inward investment from the UAE into the UK. 00:28:02.700 --> 00:28:04.806 And Jonathan Reynolds was in that meeting. 00:28:04.806 --> 00:28:06.314 This

was on the 14th of September. 00:28:06.314 --> 00:28:25.502 Now I'm reliably informed The Mail amongst others have subsequently reported that Andy Burnham was meant to be in that meeting on the 14th of September with Khaldoon, where Khaldoon would've been telling the British Prime Minister in almost certain terms, in no uncertain terms, that he would not be happy if the Manchester City verdict was whatever. 00:28:25.510 --> 00:28:31.644 Now, Downing Street correctly said that Andy Burnham was not in that meeting on the 14th of September. 00:28:31.700 --> 00:28:36.669 And we know he wasn't because his dad died on the 14th of September, but it was in his diary to be in the meeting. 00:28:37.272 --> 00:28:42.628 So, you know, if he'd been in that meeting, things could have looked even trickier for Andy Burnham. 00:28:42.641 --> 00:28:52.410 But like I said, as Manchester mayor working for the good of Manchester, he probably did nothing wrong in courting very rich foreign investors who were gonna, 00:28:52.560 --> 00:28:54.346 Well, that was a question I had. 00:28:54.538 --> 00:28:54.902 in his 00:28:55.086 --> 00:28:59.123 That was a question I had and one of the things was that, is there a different route? 00:28:59.123 --> 00:29:07.903 Is there a story from number 10 which talks to we need inward investment in cities? 00:29:07.941 --> 00:29:26.266 And this football was the route, the tip of the spear, and it's how sport sells itself in lots of different contexts to open up money into Manchester and that story in the same way as, you know, you could argue the Olympics opened up Stratford, although it was, you know, UK government money and the the whole. 00:29:26.432 --> 00:29:27.605 The same thing applies. 00:29:27.617 --> 00:29:34.421 We need investment and where the money comes from is a, is a number 10 question. 00:29:34.679 --> 00:29:45.317 is there a route which brings that in, which takes it away from football and the legal stuff and actually becomes a bit more prime ministerial? 00:29:45.922 --> 00:29:48.799 You sort of lift yourself above the fray of it. 00:29:48.844 --> 00:29:50.352 This is about football and Man City. 00:29:50.352 --> 00:29:51.290 It's all a bit grubby. 00:29:51.630 --> 00:30:00.714 It's all about back, you know, deals and cheats and shams and into, no, this is just politics, day-to-day politics and football is just a context of it. 00:30:01.257 --> 00:30:06.423 I think, Dan, you're onto something there about his allegiance to football and whether that plays a role. 00:30:06.558 --> 00:30:15.863 But the other bit to it is whether or not that is a dynamite to Abu Dhabi and whether actually no, this was always gonna, this was always a private investment. 00:30:15.871 --> 00:30:18.003 This was never about Abu Dhabi statecraft. 00:30:18.259 --> 00:30:22.710 So that you get to the sort of second-level questions of taking that particular line. 00:30:22.729 --> 00:30:27.138 But I just wondered, I just float that out because it sort of feels like there was a maybe a mistrick there 00:30:27.638 --> 00:30:31.208 Well, I think it's I think it's difficult for Andy now to carry that kind of message 00:30:31.526 --> 00:30:33.414 I like, by the way, I like the way we're calling him Andy 00:30:33.914 --> 00:30:37.147 Well, I used to, I used to play football with him, so he's, he'll 00:30:37.148 --> 00:30:39.853 and Kieran and Andy in the same five-a-side team 00:30:40.327 --> 00:30:40.930 No, no, 00:30:40.951 --> 00:30:42.144 This is like Stella Street. 00:30:42.174 --> 00:30:42.839 This is like 00:30:42.861 --> 00:30:44.351 a 11 a side Demon Eyes. 00:30:44.596 --> 00:30:44.998 I never... 00:30:45.218 --> 00:30:45.557 I was 00:30:45.602 --> 00:30:47.286 Jeremy Corbyn running down the left 00:30:47.786 --> 00:30:48.567 No, none of that. 00:30:48.869 --> 00:30:49.731 he definitely wouldn't have been 00:30:49.980 --> 00:30:51.846 There's a lot of central midfielders in there. 00:30:52.346 --> 00:30:54.028 Arthur Scargill, the manager 00:30:54.108 --> 00:30:55.030 could go on forever, Dad. 00:30:55.579 --> 00:30:56.516 This could go on forever. 00:30:57.512 --> 00:30:58.888 Anyway, sorry I interrupted you 00:30:59.398 --> 00:31:16.410 but I think that, I think there should be a degree of realpolitik about it and just like, you know, from kind of government to government there should be, right, well, actually we've got all these kind of, you know, tie-up kind of deals, defense contracts, you know, kind of property deals, et cetera, et cetera. 00:31:17.028 --> 00:31:21.549 And that should be totally kind of bifurcated and separated off over there. 00:31:22.018 --> 00:31:38.895 And then, right, actually how the, Premier League chooses to govern its competition and how it chooses to kind of prosecute those who have, you know, transgressed its rules is a completely separate issue. 00:31:39.605 --> 00:31:57.986 And I just think, you know, any kind of, you know, normal kind of functioning, you know, state where kind of that level of probity is required and it's something, you know, that the Premier League kind of prides itself its kind of levels of integrity, you get what you see, then that has to be completely separate 00:31:58.486 --> 00:31:59.060 What do you think, Nick? 00:31:59.224 --> 00:32:05.848 If we go back to the, just the very quickly on the issue of Manchester City being a private investment by Sheikh Mansour as an individual. 00:32:06.243 --> 00:32:08.909 Technically, you know, that is the case. 00:32:08.988 --> 00:32:10.576 It's, you know, he is the owner. 00:32:11.201 --> 00:32:15.880 However, he's been the owner of Manchester City for 18 years. 00:32:15.934 --> 00:32:20.897 He clearly doesn't give a flying fig about football or Manchester City as a club. 00:32:20.988 --> 00:32:25.164 He's seen them play twice in 18 years and only once in Manchester. 00:32:25.568 --> 00:32:34.229 This is not somebody who will tell you their starting 11 against Tottenham six years ago or

has got any personal interest in the football club. 00:32:34.229 --> 00:32:35.480 I simply don't believe it. 00:32:35.935 --> 00:32:59.234 And even if we accept fully that he, it is his sole personal project, it has been completely underpinned by all the apparatus of state of the UAE, not least all those Emirati-based sponsors through whom they've made hundreds and hundreds of millions of pounds, whether that's Etihad, Etisalat, Aabo, Alba, Visit Abu Dhabi, and others. 00:33:00.061 --> 00:33:00.141 I 00:33:00.195 --> 00:33:00.483 Yeah 00:33:00.800 --> 00:33:05.026 you know, reasonable idea that it's a personal project'cause he loves football. 00:33:05.042 --> 00:33:05.820 Nonsense 00:33:05.887 --> 00:33:12.148 But there is a there is a rationale behind that because, you know, investing in a Premier League club gives you a kind of global platform. 00:33:12.410 --> 00:33:25.596 And given where a state like Abu Dhabi wants to kind of project itself in the future and beyond kind of oil and gas, then there is an absolute kind of, you know, rationale behind, you know, behind that project 00:33:26.356 --> 00:33:26.943 Yeah, of course. 00:33:26.968 --> 00:33:35.748 But a project that is driven by the UAE as a state and Abu Dhabi, not as Mansour wanting to become personally popular around the world. 00:33:35.757 --> 00:33:56.402 It is, it is a project driven by the apparatus of state and absolutely in the same way that the Saudis and the Qataris, through their involvement in the World Cup, World Cups and other football investments are, you know, I don't like the term sportswashing because most of the people who are doing supposed sportswashing ended up, you know, with more, criticism than not. 00:33:56.692 --> 00:34:05.990 But they're all planning for a post-oil world and positioning themselves a geopolitical space where they are key allies of Britain and America and whatever. 00:34:06.388 --> 00:34:08.385 and so absolutely it's entirely legitimate. 00:34:08.597 --> 00:34:20.108 But let's not pretend this is Sheikh Mansour as a football lover was choosing between whether to buy Spurs or Man City because he wanted to watch Vincent Kompany, you know, curl a 30-yarder into the top corner. 00:34:20.213 --> 00:34:20.918 That's just nonsense. 00:34:21.280 --> 00:34:21.501 Yeah. 00:34:21.503 --> 00:34:22.931 Well, he'd have to wait a long time for that. 00:34:23.664 --> 00:34:28.179 But but I mean, again, know, the obvious jump is Abramovich and Chelsea and Putin. 00:34:28.184 --> 00:34:29.996 And, you know, I was reading, Putin's People. 00:34:30.001 --> 00:34:38.951 It's an excellent book, and, you know, the link and the assumed link there, which I think there's a sort of where the actual only or the reason for it. 00:34:38.951 --> 00:34:52.438 I agree with you on, the sports washing thing, and I've always thought it an odd strategy in many ways, let's round off with, wonder if other leagues are looking at and thanking the Premier League. 00:34:52.440 --> 00:35:00.730 Does the Premier League get-- Well, how does it come out of this, Dan, do you think, is there any comms upside for Premier League for having done this? 00:35:01.096 --> 00:35:13.824 I hear you on the, it's quite interesting as sort of my head went to the royal family where you started talking about the silence and, you know, the, there was that period where they didn't say anything and there was a lots of, and the vacuum gets filled with stuff. 00:35:14.175 --> 00:35:25.195 And, I think they're in an interesting position, and then people want to jump to the integrity of the product, which again, sort of probably beyond the, this, you know, talking about comms. 00:35:25.217 --> 00:35:28.498 But there is a, that's the big risk, isn't it? 00:35:28.527 --> 00:35:41.800 In terms of the product and what we've been watching and how it goes forward and whether or not that transfers the big worry is, you know, does that impact on the media interest and the media rights income that goes to football? 00:35:41.824 --> 00:35:52.822 So you've got a lot of business questions that are just hanging on this, and it's a really difficult decision to have been made and they've gone through it. 00:35:52.826 --> 00:36:02.590 And I'm just wondering, looking for upside from their perspective, either from anyone, from the government, from the fans, from other European leagues who said,"Yeah, good on you. 00:36:02.619 --> 00:36:04.280 We've got this coming down the road at some point." 00:36:04.780 --> 00:36:10.775 Well, I think there's a, there's a distance to go, but as things currently stand, I think the Premier League is, is net positive. 00:36:11.072 --> 00:36:13.146 they've said what they were going to do. 00:36:13.190 --> 00:36:13.797 They've done it. 00:36:14.123 --> 00:36:16.762 They've done it to a kind of high level. 00:36:16.791 --> 00:36:20.197 They've done it rigorously, and they've done it with great integrity. 00:36:20.996 --> 00:36:25.094 I think, you know, the issue now is, right, you know, what the sanction is. 00:36:25.262 --> 00:36:34.295 And again, I think, you know, lots of noise around, you know, what, you know, it's gotta be this, you know, you've gotta go back and unpack everything. 00:36:34.304 --> 00:36:40.905 You've gotta go forward and make Man City suffer for as long as they've made everybody else kind of suffer. 00:36:41.878 --> 00:36:53.706 think if I was in kind of Premier League offices at, you know, Paddington, I would be, I'd be counseling what you want is is the cleanest, swiftest kill. 00:36:54.427 --> 00:37:01.266 what you don't, don't wanna do is create a long shadow over, you know, over the league that's gonna last kind of five or six years. 00:37:01.266 --> 00:37:06.621 I think going back retrospectively and unpicking stuff is a kind of road to madness. 00:37:07.010 --> 00:37:16.956 so I think like a really kind of, severe, immediate kind of punishment, an 80-point deduction that would see Manchester City relegated.

00:37:17.349 --> 00:37:31.842 I think, a significant nine-figure fine, which would form the basis of a, of a compensation pool and perhaps some kind of, you know, restorative reparations, you know, reputational reparations. 00:37:32.418 --> 00:37:42.487 And then that kind of casting forward piece, I would go to a kind of a six-window transfer ban with like, you know, two suspended or something like that. 00:37:43.434 --> 00:37:54.496 and that way you've kind of, you've, kind of dealt with it But it's not, you're not starting every season for the next five seasons like Man City, Manchester City asterisk minus 30 points. 00:37:54.909 --> 00:37:59.898 Because some commentators are looking kind of through the wrong end of the telescope with this. 00:37:59.923 --> 00:38:03.074 They're looking everything through the kind of prism of Manchester City. 00:38:03.442 --> 00:38:07.976 League has got to, you know, the Premier League executive has got to think about the other 19 clubs. 00:38:08.295 --> 00:38:13.597 And the thing that's also interesting is, like everyone's, oh, season's, you know, is in stasis. 00:38:13.724 --> 00:38:15.539 Not for the other 19 clubs it's not. 00:38:15.855 --> 00:38:17.847 You know, they are kind of cracking on. 00:38:18.103 --> 00:38:19.208 They want to get into Europe. 00:38:19.235 --> 00:38:20.773 They want to avoid relegation. 00:38:20.978 --> 00:38:23.914 You know, they want to have a kind of tilt at the title. 00:38:24.202 --> 00:38:28.996 You know, you've got three 380 matches across a Premier League season, you know. 00:38:29.467 --> 00:38:33.960 So i- yeah, again, and then that leads on to the kind of the commercial value point. 00:38:34.233 --> 00:38:37.166 Commercial value of the Premier League does not rest with one club. 00:38:37.666 --> 00:38:39.336 it rests as a kind of competition. 00:38:39.338 --> 00:38:43.351 I mean, this is kind of compelling, competitive league. 00:38:43.360 --> 00:38:49.465 You know, stuff I used to kind of coin phrases around, you know, any team can beat any other on any given day. 00:38:49.782 --> 00:38:52.000 You know, that's all kind of part and parcel of it. 00:38:52.302 --> 00:39:01.257 I think if you, if you're looking at, like Ligue 1 and this was happening to PSG, you know, given the parlous state Ligue 1's finances, yes, you'd be very worried. 00:39:01.512 --> 00:39:06.056 But you've got a kind of strength in depth, a longevity around the kind of Premier League. 00:39:06.188 --> 00:39:15.630 You've got a country of other super clubs, and also you've got a league standing up, you know, underpinning its integrity and doing the right thing. 00:39:16.130 --> 00:39:16.432 Yeah. 00:39:16.681 --> 00:39:19.485 And if I could just add, I agree with what Dan's just said. 00:39:19.485 --> 00:39:28.617 I mean, years ago, 15, 20 years ago, Dan and I would spar quite, quite ferociously on some issues around the Premier League and whether, you know, it was 00:39:28.648 --> 00:39:30.085 Do you ever ever get to fisticuffs? 00:39:30.585 --> 00:39:31.353 No, of course not. 00:39:31.630 --> 00:39:33.298 I think we might have got to a second pint. 00:39:33.347 --> 00:39:33.570 it 00:39:33.721 --> 00:39:34.224 But, but 00:39:34.402 --> 00:39:34.672 was it 00:39:34.813 --> 00:39:35.076 but 00:39:35.137 --> 00:39:35.925 collars felt? 00:39:36.425 --> 00:39:36.909 Say again? 00:39:37.163 --> 00:39:40.246 Was there any sort of, you know, ruffling of collars or of that? 00:39:41.028 --> 00:39:41.639 No, nothing. 00:39:41.643 --> 00:39:42.192 It was always very 00:39:42.452 --> 00:39:42.461 Yeah 00:39:42.902 --> 00:39:50.313 but, you know, and my beef would be sort of the money should be distributed more broadly across football and there were other ways of doing this and that. 00:39:50.313 --> 00:39:58.106 But increasingly over time, you know, I'm firmly of the view that the Premier League is one of greatest exports. 00:39:58.266 --> 00:40:01.952 You go anywhere in the world and you will see Premier League football shirts. 00:40:01.952 --> 00:40:06.661 You can find Premier League matches on, at bars in any country in the world. 00:40:07.059 --> 00:40:07.731 You can... 00:40:07.923 --> 00:40:10.963 You know, it's an incredible product and it remains so. 00:40:10.965 --> 00:40:15.005 And I agree with Dan that The Premier League is much more than Manchester City. 00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:33.293 if Manchester City are suddenly not in it because they've been relegated to the Championship, and again, I broadly agree with Dan, you know, a points penalty if all the guilty verdicts were upheld on appeal to see them relegated plus 100 or 200 million pound fine plus a transfer ban for whatever. 00:40:33.293 --> 00:40:40.721 I think that's, that's what I would say is probably spot on and not go and them 30 points for the next six seasons or whatever. 00:40:41.195 --> 00:40:50.891 because I also think there's quite a lot of misunderstanding about how quite how catastrophic a relegation even to the Championship would be for Manchester City. 00:40:51.518 --> 00:40:54.286 know, Manchester City, people say,"Oh, that's not a real punishment. 00:40:54.327 --> 00:41:11.630 They'll be straight back up the next season." Well, I'm not certain that they would be because they'd have to get rid of most of their players because they can't take a 420 million pound wage bill, which their wage bill currently is, into the Championship without immediately falling very seriously foul of Championship PSR rules and getting points deductions. 00:41:11.927 --> 00:41:16.313 So they would go to the Championship where they would've offloaded most of their players'cause they don't want to be there. 00:41:16.735 --> 00:41:18.378 They wouldn't be in the Champions League. 00:41:18.398 --> 00:41:22.742 They wouldn't be making 175 million pounds from Premier League TV cash. 00:41:22.742 --> 00:41:24.969 They'd be making 15 from whatever. 00:41:25.032 --> 00:41:26.722 They wouldn't have any

Champions League money. 00:41:26.913 --> 00:41:34.070 Their legitimate sponsors, by which I mean non-Emirati sponsors, might desert them because, you know, it's now a tainted brand. 00:41:34.501 --> 00:41:39.800 but in terms of this having terrible repercussions for the Premier League as a product, don't buy it. 00:41:39.851 --> 00:41:43.503 I mean, the Premier League since, was it the last TV or the one before that? 00:41:43.840 --> 00:42:10.018 Overseas TV revenues eclipsed domestic TV revenues for the first time and it, and, and, and people around the world, broadcasters around the world pay a lot of money for the Premier League because it is the most popular sports league in the world and the most watched football league in the world I my personal view is hammering City if found guilty after appeals is not going to have long-term lasting effects on the integrity of the Premier League. 00:42:10.443 --> 00:42:33.751 And in fact, as Dan said, and I'm agreeing far too much with him today, but as he said, the fact that the Premier League have taken this and done this in great detail over eight years to get to the point of punishing a club that appeared to have perpetrated a longstanding widespread fraud, took some bollocks and, they bring it to a conclusion that should actually increase the integrity of the league. 00:42:34.251 --> 00:42:39.829 Dan, you must be, you know, listening to Nick there, he could be, it he could've been in Premier League comms team all this time. 00:42:40.329 --> 00:42:41.088 Nick, well, 00:42:41.489 --> 00:42:42.420 You missed a trick there, you 00:42:42.510 --> 00:42:42.943 know, I 00:42:43.443 --> 00:42:43.481 see. 00:42:44.362 --> 00:42:46.202 well, mean, is always... 00:42:46.248 --> 00:42:52.831 my relationship when I was at the Premier League with Nick was fair and robust, and we would disagree on some things and we'd agree other things. 00:42:53.380 --> 00:42:57.239 but that's, like, basically how I deal with journalists David Cotton was another one, 00:42:57.280 --> 00:42:57.579 Yeah 00:42:57.615 --> 00:43:01.347 know, that I probably spent far too many hours of my life speaking to David Conn. 00:43:01.583 --> 00:43:03.443 But we all, we always, always had a 00:43:03.610 --> 00:43:14.108 But there is always a sort of You hear, like the Premier League is a really good litmus test of that sort of free market versus regulation and, you know, as Dan said, one of the great British exports. 00:43:14.407 --> 00:43:23.871 And then hear the argument made often,"Oh, well, it's so great that we've regulated it." And you've got this tussle you know, let the big clubs go free, stop imposing finance on it. 00:43:23.989 --> 00:43:25.257 All of that, it runs through. 00:43:25.260 --> 00:43:29.365 I always find the Premier League's quite a interesting proxy for those questions. 00:43:29.445 --> 00:43:30.221 And you sort of, you... 00:43:30.387 --> 00:43:35.813 And the, in the football media, you do hear them being articulated via

football. 00:43:35.918 --> 00:43:42.221 So in terms of, you know, the anti-Premier League argument was always that the more money should flow to the pyramid and the separation and all. 00:43:42.221 --> 00:43:43.257 I don't wanna rehearse all of that. 00:43:43.481 --> 00:43:44.550 But it's quite interesting. 00:43:45.144 --> 00:43:49.025 again, back to my question about what the comms upside for the Premier League is. 00:43:49.853 --> 00:43:51.007 I wonder if that's one of them. 00:43:51.010 --> 00:43:57.639 Whether is a sort of an assessment of, people, it allows people to stand back and look at the Premier League afresh and say,"Do you know what? 00:43:58.030 --> 00:44:00.032 There's, lot's gone right since'92." 00:44:00.532 --> 00:44:04.192 Well, yeah, I don't think, I don't think the Premier League's success happens by accident. 00:44:04.358 --> 00:44:12.019 You know, it's not, it's not just kind of riding a wave of kind of increased, you know, popularity of football on a global basis. 00:44:12.306 --> 00:44:15.900 Otherwise, other leagues would be, would be doing that as well. 00:44:16.181 --> 00:44:24.097 there are kind of some structural kind of factors, some geographical factors at play, but to take advantage of them, you've got to have a well-run competition. 00:44:24.465 --> 00:44:32.338 and I very, you know, I think the Premier League was unfairly castigated as like the Wild West, you know, anything kind of goes. 00:44:32.648 --> 00:44:58.070 Might not have always seen the, governance and reputational challenges like on the horizon, but when they presented themselves, whether it was, you know, Gaydamak's at Portsmouth or whether it was like, you know, the kind of fruity kind of financial, issues at Leeds or, you know, whether it was kind of, you know, owners and directors, the Premier League would always step up and address that. 00:44:58.463 --> 00:45:08.516 And that was as much as like, well, protecting the competition, protecting the integrity of the competition, but also protecting the commerciality of the competition. 00:45:08.771 --> 00:45:11.034 So it's kind of that where, you know... 00:45:11.891 --> 00:45:16.981 It's quite interesting'cause it's it's almost like where Andy Burnham's kind of positioning kind of market intervention. 00:45:16.983 --> 00:45:22.018 If a market is functioning, like then let it kind of self-regulate. 00:45:22.423 --> 00:45:30.210 If it's not functioning, then you need to kind of, you know, add some kind of, market interventions in there, and that's very much how the Premier League has approached it 00:45:30.898 --> 00:45:31.434 Okay. 00:45:31.775 --> 00:45:32.172 Andy. 00:45:32.195 --> 00:45:33.268 You called him Andy Burnham there. 00:45:33.320 --> 00:45:35.563 you're, you know, putting some, you're 00:45:35.661 --> 00:45:37.536 bad for showing due respect 00:45:37.679 --> 00:45:40.885 putting some distance between you and your old mucker, your old midfield maestro. 00:45:41.326 --> 00:45:41.666 Right. 00:45:41.721 --> 00:45:42.117 Okay. 00:45:42.128 --> 00:45:42.518 Brilliant. 00:45:42.527 --> 00:45:43.251 Thank you both. 00:45:43.342 --> 00:45:44.362 Really appreciate that. 00:45:44.599 --> 00:45:45.282 Come back soon