Volledige transcriptie van A Comms Recruiter Perspective: Shifting Skill Sets and the New Comms Career Playbook w/ Brooke Kruger, Communications Recruiter and Founder at KC Partners

think there is a contributing factor 00:04:08.419 --> 00:04:11.520 to the robustness if we can use that word for 00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:15.400 the comms market and that is the bouquet that 00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:18.819 has been thrown at pr and communications via 00:04:18.819 --> 00:04:23.930 ai And by that, I mean the importance of earned 00:04:23.930 --> 00:04:29.350 media in delivering answers on LLMs like ChachiDBT. 00:04:29.490 --> 00:04:35.089 I just wrote today, I was quoting the guy from 00:04:35.089 --> 00:04:37.550 Gregory Gallant of MuckRack, the CEO. He put 00:04:37.550 --> 00:04:41.430 out a study that said more than 89 % of links 00:04:41.430 --> 00:04:44.230 cited from AI come from earned media, according 00:04:44.230 --> 00:04:47.170 to this big report they put out. That's an incredible. 00:04:48.089 --> 00:04:50.829 statistic and incredibly beneficial for those 00:04:50.829 --> 00:04:54.490 of us in PR. And recent earned media at that 00:04:54.490 --> 00:04:57.569 parry. So what you earned a year ago is not what's 00:04:57.569 --> 00:04:59.689 ranking you in the LLMs. I just wanted to clarify 00:04:59.689 --> 00:05:02.750 because to your point, that makes timely communications 00:05:02.750 --> 00:05:06.050 ever more important. It's ongoing. So are you 00:05:06.050 --> 00:05:08.610 hearing or seeing anything along those lines, 00:05:08.709 --> 00:05:11.569 Brooke, when you look at the comms market writ 00:05:11.569 --> 00:05:14.589 large? Well, I mean, that's an interesting point. 00:05:14.730 --> 00:05:17.529 I mean, there are AI is going to take away some 00:05:17.529 --> 00:05:21.029 jobs in communications because of if I think 00:05:21.029 --> 00:05:22.649 of what I did when I started on the PR agency 00:05:22.649 --> 00:05:25.550 side, AI would be so helpful in writing and tracking 00:05:25.550 --> 00:05:27.670 coverage and things like that. But then people 00:05:27.670 --> 00:05:31.189 using AI to their benefit is also happening. 00:05:31.250 --> 00:05:34.589 And then earned media has never been more important. 00:05:34.790 --> 00:05:38.250 However, the shrinking pool of journalists makes 00:05:38.250 --> 00:05:41.250 it. in publications makes it so much harder to 00:05:41.250 --> 00:05:43.610 get that earned media. So I don't know if you 00:05:43.610 --> 00:05:45.509 guys feel this way. But when I see, you know, 00:05:45.550 --> 00:05:47.269 my candidates and clients, and I see these like 00:05:47.269 --> 00:05:49.529 major placements, I'm just I'm like, so proud 00:05:49.529 --> 00:05:52.050 for them. Because I think like how hard that 00:05:52.050 --> 00:05:55.170 must have been to get that story in today's climate. 00:05:56.470 --> 00:05:59.870 Yeah, there is no doubt that there is a vanishing 00:05:59.870 --> 00:06:02.250 number of the marquee sort of publications that 00:06:02.250 --> 00:06:04.529 we've all come to love. And most of the people 00:06:04.529 --> 00:06:07.560 that we as opposed to build relationships with, 00:06:07.660 --> 00:06:10.420 have been fired, laid off, switched papers, switched 00:06:10.420 --> 00:06:12.759 publications over and over and over again. So 00:06:12.759 --> 00:06:15.939 PR teams literally have to reinvent relationships 00:06:15.939 --> 00:06:18.420 over and over and over. And against that backdrop, 00:06:18.660 --> 00:06:21.720 there's a whole new swath of different outlets 00:06:21.720 --> 00:06:24.199 and mediums that we have to be proficient, if 00:06:24.199 --> 00:06:26.540 not excellent in now, including podcasts and 00:06:26.540 --> 00:06:29.060 Substack, like Beehive and all this kind of stuff. 00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:33.000 So I would argue that there's... There's probably 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:36.240 more people publishing right now than ever before, 00:06:36.379 --> 00:06:39.399 but it's just so atomized and little tiny pockets 00:06:39.399 --> 00:06:43.560 across the ecosystem. So it makes it a lot more 00:06:43.560 --> 00:06:46.620 work, a lot more challenging to infiltrate all 00:06:46.620 --> 00:06:50.079 of these places. And it's a different muscle, 00:06:50.339 --> 00:06:54.480 right? As the media landscape is adapting and, 00:06:54.519 --> 00:06:56.959 to your point, atomizing all over, we all have 00:06:56.959 --> 00:07:01.040 to learn how we then... pitch those stories to 00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:04.240 those people is it one -to -one is it they're 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:06.259 finding you through your thought leadership on 00:07:06.259 --> 00:07:08.180 social media which is definitely a thing now 00:07:08.180 --> 00:07:13.399 right like is it um uh podcast publicity like 00:07:13.399 --> 00:07:15.779 i don't know what the answer is but i know that 00:07:15.779 --> 00:07:18.620 it's changing and i know that it's probably making 00:07:18.620 --> 00:07:22.759 what is valuable in communications professionals 00:07:22.759 --> 00:07:26.160 different so actually that is a question for 00:07:26.160 --> 00:07:30.779 brooke two questions Are hiring managers changing 00:07:30.779 --> 00:07:33.399 what they're looking for in general as far as 00:07:33.399 --> 00:07:37.579 specific skills? And then are the employees or 00:07:37.579 --> 00:07:39.779 the comms leaders that you're talking to, are 00:07:39.779 --> 00:07:43.339 they kind of targeting different types of roles 00:07:43.339 --> 00:07:47.389 as things are changing? So to answer the first 00:07:47.389 --> 00:07:49.709 question, yes, things are changing. The skill 00:07:49.709 --> 00:07:51.970 set is changing. It's getting bigger. If you 00:07:51.970 --> 00:07:54.949 have news, it's now how many different ways can 00:07:54.949 --> 00:07:56.870 we skin a cat? How many different ways can we 00:07:56.870 --> 00:07:59.029 get this out there? Are we going to try to get 00:07:59.029 --> 00:08:00.449 earned media? Are we going to do thought leadership? 00:08:00.689 --> 00:08:02.050 Are we going to do a podcast? Are we going to 00:08:02.050 --> 00:08:04.170 do a

video? How are we going to get that? So 00:08:04.170 --> 00:08:07.560 I think. As a communications professional, you 00:08:07.560 --> 00:08:10.319 need to be able to always upping your skills 00:08:10.319 --> 00:08:12.720 in your game and you need to be a good storyteller 00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:14.879 and know how to tell that story and where it's 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:18.699 going to resonate. Hiring managers are also a 00:08:18.699 --> 00:08:21.920 couple trends or what I'm seeing in new searches 00:08:21.920 --> 00:08:25.939 I'm doing, creativity, curiosity, storytelling. 00:08:26.480 --> 00:08:27.920 You know, storytelling has always been there, 00:08:28.019 --> 00:08:30.339 but, you know, you need to be more creative telling 00:08:30.339 --> 00:08:33.059 it. And then the second part of your question 00:08:33.059 --> 00:08:37.960 was are you repeat that candidates themselves? 00:08:38.179 --> 00:08:41.639 Yeah. Are they changing their. the way that they 00:08:41.639 --> 00:08:44.299 are either what they're targeting or how they're 00:08:44.299 --> 00:08:46.840 presenting themselves, given the changing? So 00:08:46.840 --> 00:08:49.000 I think, yes, I think it's always good to be 00:08:49.000 --> 00:08:51.500 evolving and changing. I think when I left PR, 00:08:51.639 --> 00:08:54.059 it was 2005 and there were no blogs really to 00:08:54.059 --> 00:08:56.600 pitch. So like my skill set in 2005 is completely 00:08:56.600 --> 00:08:59.940 different than the comms person of today. So 00:08:59.940 --> 00:09:01.919 I think candidates, yes, they need to always 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:04.299 be upping their game and be interested. And again, 00:09:04.440 --> 00:09:06.379 I mean, it goes back to simple things, storytelling, 00:09:06.740 --> 00:09:11.330 creativity, curiosity. One thing I hear from 00:09:11.330 --> 00:09:15.090 hiring managers frequently now is like, I don't 00:09:15.090 --> 00:09:17.129 want someone with the same playbook that thinks 00:09:17.129 --> 00:09:19.750 it's going to work for every single company they've 00:09:19.750 --> 00:09:24.409 been to. And so, which is, I mean, so honest 00:09:24.409 --> 00:09:27.090 and simple. Yes. I'm so relieved to hear that 00:09:27.090 --> 00:09:28.929 because it used to be the opposite where like 00:09:28.929 --> 00:09:31.899 you went in and they would be like, so. how have 00:09:31.899 --> 00:09:33.620 you done X, Y, and Z? And it's like, well, this 00:09:33.620 --> 00:09:34.960 is how I've done it, but that doesn't really 00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:37.039 apply to your scenario. It needs to be totally 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:39.120 different because you can't just rinse and repeat 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:41.000 if you go somewhere else. So I actually think 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:42.720 that's refreshing to hear that hiring managers 00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:45.639 are looking for somebody who can think outside 00:09:45.639 --> 00:09:49.639 of the playbook. Yes, I do too. But the other 00:09:49.639 --> 00:09:51.340 thing, those questions are still important in 00:09:51.340 --> 00:09:53.759 the interview process because the other thing 00:09:53.759 --> 00:09:55.600 I'm hiring managers want to know, like when, 00:09:55.659 --> 00:09:58.299 what happened when, when the problem happened, 00:09:58.340 --> 00:10:01.379 were you the call? And what did you do to answer 00:10:01.379 --> 00:10:04.179 it? And so also thinking quick on your feet and 00:10:04.179 --> 00:10:07.679 being able to, you know, you always have to be 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:11.399 good at strategy, but there is no room now for 00:10:11.399 --> 00:10:13.860 not executing. A comms leader needs to be able 00:10:13.860 --> 00:10:17.240 to pick up the phone and execute. So a couple 00:10:17.240 --> 00:10:18.740 of things about this. This is fascinating. So 00:10:18.740 --> 00:10:20.440 I would have thought you would have said when 00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:23.799 it comes to what the hiring managers are looking 00:10:23.799 --> 00:10:27.279 for and what the candidates themselves are. presenting 00:10:27.279 --> 00:10:30.960 is is ai a big piece of ai so like we're looking 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:33.559 for ai proficient people that know how to streamline 00:10:33.559 --> 00:10:36.080 workflows and how to make shorter work of you 00:10:36.080 --> 00:10:38.820 know all these redundant repetitive tasks that 00:10:38.820 --> 00:10:40.379 would be one thing because everybody's looking 00:10:40.379 --> 00:10:44.139 to cut head count and maximize revenue per employee 00:10:44.139 --> 00:10:48.340 on the hiring side and then from the job candidate 00:10:48.340 --> 00:10:51.879 standpoint everybody i know just about is trying 00:10:51.879 --> 00:10:55.450 to you know, pop up their chest a little bit 00:10:55.450 --> 00:10:57.330 on the AI front saying like, hey, I put the work 00:10:57.330 --> 00:10:59.009 in, I put the time in. Yes, we're all learning, 00:10:59.090 --> 00:11:01.370 but I'm really trying actively to do X, Y, and 00:11:01.370 --> 00:11:04.710 Z to make myself look marketable for the future, 00:11:04.750 --> 00:11:07.110 to future -proof myself. You're not seeing the 00:11:07.110 --> 00:11:11.110 AI piece being bandied about? I have a different 00:11:11.110 --> 00:11:13.929 outlook on that. I mean, if you're not using 00:11:13.929 --> 00:11:17.110 AI to improve your job right now, like that is, 00:11:17.230 --> 00:11:22.179 I mean, that's a mistake. you know, it's like 00:11:22.179 --> 00:11:24.519 saying, you know, Excel, you know, you need to 00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:26.360 know chat GPT. You need to know Excel. That is 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:28.600 the, we, the, it is moving so quickly that the 00:11:28.600 --> 00:11:30.220 playing field has completely changed. Everyone 00:11:30.220 --> 00:11:32.240 should be using AI in their job, in their daily 00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:35.820 life, you know, to do better. So I think, you 00:11:35.820 --> 00:11:39.019 know, what you're saying is

table six, but candidates 00:11:39.019 --> 00:11:42.519 who can. who can market themselves as being even 00:11:42.519 --> 00:11:45.279 a more proven expert? Yes, but I think it's expected 00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:48.480 that you know how to use AI and you're constantly 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:51.820 trying to improve efficiency in your work and 00:11:51.820 --> 00:11:55.299 the work around you. Sorry, Becca, I thought 00:11:55.299 --> 00:11:58.080 on the hiring side, it would be even more pronounced 00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:00.639 just because everybody's trying to get more efficient 00:12:00.639 --> 00:12:02.539 and do more with fewer people. I thought that 00:12:02.539 --> 00:12:04.700 would be a big ask. And you're not seeing that, 00:12:04.740 --> 00:12:07.480 it sounds like. I think it's just expected. Huh, 00:12:07.639 --> 00:12:10.740 okay. That is interesting, actually, especially 00:12:10.740 --> 00:12:15.220 because I don't think everybody I mean, most 00:12:15.220 --> 00:12:17.799 of the people that I work with and in my like 00:12:17.799 --> 00:12:20.679 professional networks are using AI, but I don't 00:12:20.679 --> 00:12:23.139 think everybody is using it in their everyday 00:12:23.139 --> 00:12:26.379 job. You know, like I don't think it's not yet. 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:29.080 Not yet. No, I know. But that's why I'm like 00:12:29.080 --> 00:12:31.460 Perry. I'm surprised if it's not like one of 00:12:31.460 --> 00:12:34.580 the top questions that. hiring managers are asking 00:12:34.580 --> 00:12:36.840 of people is like how are you applying ai to 00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:39.820 your job and how is it making it better because 00:12:39.820 --> 00:12:44.100 even if it's just like you know i use chat gpt 00:12:44.100 --> 00:12:45.879 for research or whatever like at least you're 00:12:45.879 --> 00:12:49.679 like showing that you're moving i mean that's 00:12:49.679 --> 00:12:53.539 a fair question but i um i again i just go back 00:12:53.539 --> 00:12:56.200 to being it's so expected in my at my son's high 00:12:56.200 --> 00:13:00.210 school um uh back to school night for spanish 00:13:00.210 --> 00:13:02.690 the spanish teacher said we are not doing any 00:13:02.690 --> 00:13:05.909 we're never grading homework or doing tests at 00:13:05.909 --> 00:13:08.210 home everything graded will be in class because 00:13:08.210 --> 00:13:10.889 otherwise you would just use ai so they are fully 00:13:10.889 --> 00:13:14.009 expecting everybody to be using ai for things 00:13:14.009 --> 00:13:16.870 and i felt like that was a very um interesting 00:13:16.870 --> 00:13:21.029 statement um because it's just expected super 00:13:21.029 --> 00:13:23.669 interesting when you see candidates come in that 00:13:23.669 --> 00:13:26.970 aren't talking about AI as part of their sort 00:13:26.970 --> 00:13:29.830 of package they put forth. Do you counsel them 00:13:29.830 --> 00:13:32.490 to include something like that? Or again, it 00:13:32.490 --> 00:13:34.690 just sounds like to you, this is expected. I 00:13:34.690 --> 00:13:37.529 would counsel everyone to say, yes, this needs 00:13:37.529 --> 00:13:45.129 to be your daily work. And then I also, if you 00:13:45.129 --> 00:13:47.549 do have the creative ways you're using AI, I 00:13:47.549 --> 00:13:49.850 think that would be something to elaborate. But 00:13:49.850 --> 00:13:52.509 if you're using AI to edit your work, I mean. 00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:55.899 You still, you know, that's not, I think, a selling 00:13:55.899 --> 00:13:58.240 point. I think everyone should be using that. 00:13:58.659 --> 00:14:00.879 Yeah, I'm thinking more like share a voice and 00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:03.179 like share a voice on LLMs and like all the stuff. 00:14:03.460 --> 00:14:05.379 Yeah, I mean, again, that stuff, absolutely. 00:14:05.659 --> 00:14:07.840 And if you can market yourself in that, but I 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:10.159 also think we're turning where it's expected. 00:14:10.940 --> 00:14:14.299 Can I ask one more thing about the skill sets? 00:14:14.899 --> 00:14:18.320 So can you break down kind of what the universe 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:22.299 of candidates you deal with is? comms what's 00:14:22.299 --> 00:14:24.779 the percentage of like pr like how does it what's 00:14:24.779 --> 00:14:28.759 the mix okay for yes for me so i i place you 00:14:28.759 --> 00:14:31.240 know top comms talent we work with agencies corporations 00:14:31.240 --> 00:14:34.360 startups and bc firms most of our positions are 00:14:34.360 --> 00:14:37.500 pre -post ipo high growth companies whether that's 00:14:37.500 --> 00:14:41.559 the head of comms chief comms officer um head 00:14:41.559 --> 00:14:44.039 of corporate communications and then the positions 00:14:44.039 --> 00:14:47.360 that layer up into those roles So, for example, 00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:49.720 I worked with the Instacart CCO and we placed 00:14:49.720 --> 00:14:52.860 30 people on their comms team to build that out 00:14:52.860 --> 00:14:56.840 during the up into COVID. But I also do kind 00:14:56.840 --> 00:14:59.220 of one off positions where it's like I had a 00:14:59.220 --> 00:15:01.519 comms at an early stage company. And then I also 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:05.000 work with venture firms like Becca at Scale Ventures 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:09.149 to find them a comms hire as well. And I still 00:15:09.149 --> 00:15:12.269 work with corporations as well to build out their 00:15:12.269 --> 00:15:15.269 comms team. But the most of my candidate level 00:15:15.269 --> 00:15:20.269 are mid to senior level. Got it. And so I have 00:15:20.269 --> 00:15:22.490 been arguing for a long while. And Becca knows 00:15:22.490 --> 00:15:25.269 this. She reads my constant ranting on LinkedIn. 00:15:25.289 --> 00:15:28.029 I think that most organizations, especially B2B 00:15:28.029 --> 00:15:30.750 organizations, once they get over a certain threshold 00:15:30.750 --> 00:15:32.830 of revenue, whether it's

10 million or 15 million, 00:15:32.889 --> 00:15:34.330 whatever it is, once you get to a certain point, 00:15:34.370 --> 00:15:38.169 I think it's. incumbent upon those companies 00:15:38.169 --> 00:15:41.250 to have some kind of a chief communications officer 00:15:41.250 --> 00:15:45.570 title. For sure, just like that's it. And a lot 00:15:45.570 --> 00:15:47.129 of companies are still resistant to that, relying 00:15:47.129 --> 00:15:49.250 too heavily on marketing in my estimation. So 00:15:49.250 --> 00:15:51.929 I guess what I'm just looking for you to say 00:15:51.929 --> 00:15:54.169 is, what are you seeing? Are you seeing more 00:15:54.169 --> 00:15:56.169 of a trend toward people embracing what I'm talking 00:15:56.169 --> 00:15:58.870 about and advocating for? Or do you still see 00:15:58.870 --> 00:16:01.350 companies actively pushing back and trying to 00:16:01.350 --> 00:16:03.289 throw everything under the marketing bucket? 00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:06.639 Um, I see both. I do think communications has 00:16:06.639 --> 00:16:09.000 a seat at the table now more than ever. And I 00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:11.820 think most companies are doing a full communications 00:16:11.820 --> 00:16:16.019 track that reports into the, the C suite or C 00:16:16.019 --> 00:16:19.440 level, uh, CEO. Then there are companies that 00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:21.820 still have the comps position under marketing. 00:16:21.860 --> 00:16:24.279 Now this, this is not, we're not talking about 00:16:24.279 --> 00:16:26.220 venture. We're talking about corporations or, 00:16:26.279 --> 00:16:29.220 you know, earlier stage companies pre pre post 00:16:29.220 --> 00:16:33.320 IPO, but many are. having comms be a separate 00:16:33.320 --> 00:16:37.460 loop and that is recognized and um you know that's 00:16:37.460 --> 00:16:40.360 that's what candidates essentially want however 00:16:40.360 --> 00:16:44.639 i have placed many candidates under a great cmo 00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:47.399 and it is it works out so i would say it just 00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:50.820 depends on who the who the marketing organization 00:16:50.820 --> 00:16:54.159 is who's running it and if if if comms is valued 00:16:54.159 --> 00:16:58.929 there as well i feel like the The value that 00:16:58.929 --> 00:17:01.870 communications brings has always been extreme, 00:17:01.950 --> 00:17:04.670 but now that it's becoming more fragmented and 00:17:04.670 --> 00:17:08.450 we just have to be in more places, I do think 00:17:08.450 --> 00:17:13.809 it continues to make less sense to have comms 00:17:13.809 --> 00:17:15.710 report into marketing. I say that as head of 00:17:15.710 --> 00:17:18.069 marketing, but that's because in venture, like 00:17:18.069 --> 00:17:21.250 we are not running demand gen programs, right? 00:17:21.289 --> 00:17:27.460 We are brand content. PR events. It is that stuff 00:17:27.460 --> 00:17:29.980 that I would argue, let's call it corporate marketing, 00:17:30.180 --> 00:17:34.000 should be a separate wing because they are not 00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:38.259 trying to drive in -quarter revenue. They are 00:17:38.259 --> 00:17:40.420 storytelling, they are changing perceptions, 00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:44.200 they are finding where we need to be and making 00:17:44.200 --> 00:17:47.799 sure we are in those places. And if those people 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:50.779 are reporting to a head of marketing who has 00:17:50.779 --> 00:17:57.640 revenue, quota or mql quotas then then what like 00:17:57.640 --> 00:18:01.099 how how does the comms person do their job if 00:18:01.099 --> 00:18:03.579 their goals have nothing to do with the goals 00:18:03.579 --> 00:18:06.480 of the organization that they serve so i'm happy 00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:10.720 to hear that you are seeing the comms loop starting 00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:15.119 to become its own thing but i am still sad about 00:18:15.119 --> 00:18:18.819 the state of communications rolling into marketing 00:18:18.819 --> 00:18:23.000 myself I agree with everything you're saying. 00:18:23.140 --> 00:18:25.759 And I do, you know, more and more comms is reporting 00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:29.339 it to the CEO. I had a conversation with a, like 00:18:29.339 --> 00:18:31.839 a series E company yesterday afternoon, and they 00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:34.440 were looking for a head of comms and they're 00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:35.940 like, well, then it's going to report. We think 00:18:35.940 --> 00:18:38.000 it's going to report in the marketing, the head 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:40.180 of marketing who reports to the COO, who reports 00:18:40.180 --> 00:18:43.339 to the CEO. And I said, I don't think that is 00:18:43.339 --> 00:18:48.180 a good sell, you know, that the three lines away 00:18:48.180 --> 00:18:51.960 from the CEO. um it doesn't make sense and so 00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:55.200 well you can't do your job Like you just can't, 00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:57.779 like you cannot have the access that you need, 00:18:57.920 --> 00:19:00.420 the understanding, the nuance, everything. If 00:19:00.420 --> 00:19:03.420 you are a senior level communications leader 00:19:03.420 --> 00:19:05.700 who is expected to do the things a senior level 00:19:05.700 --> 00:19:07.119 communications leader is expected to do. And 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:09.079 in my mind, I was just thinking, okay, there's 00:19:09.079 --> 00:19:11.099 a crisis. So then they called the CMO, then the 00:19:11.099 --> 00:19:13.519 CMO calls the CMO, then the CMO. It's like a 00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:17.200 game of telephone. It gets sillier when you look 00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:19.460 at the longevity math. So the average tenure 00:19:19.460 --> 00:19:23.470 for a CMO is 18 months. I know. 18 months. Like 00:19:23.470 --> 00:19:25.970 by the time you learn the actual company inside 00:19:25.970 --> 00:19:28.250 and out, you're already like at six months. And 00:19:28.250 --> 00:19:30.349 then you get, you know, maybe another

year if 00:19:30.349 --> 00:19:31.970 you're lucky and according to the averages. And 00:19:31.970 --> 00:19:33.509 I think that, I don't know what the number is 00:19:33.509 --> 00:19:35.549 for the head of comms or whatever, but I would 00:19:35.549 --> 00:19:37.450 argue that it's probably a lot longer than that. 00:19:37.730 --> 00:19:41.829 I think so. For sure. And there are amazing CMOs, 00:19:41.829 --> 00:19:44.369 people I've placed candidates as head of comms 00:19:44.369 --> 00:19:47.339 at, you know. Series C, D, E companies are reporting 00:19:47.339 --> 00:19:50.299 to the CMO and it works out. It really does depend 00:19:50.299 --> 00:19:53.799 upon the person and how the CMO values communications 00:19:53.799 --> 00:19:57.019 and if they will let the head of comms stay in 00:19:57.019 --> 00:19:58.960 their own lane. So there's always exceptions, 00:19:59.059 --> 00:20:03.079 but the preferred method for me from candidates, 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:07.440 from companies is the comms is a separate track. 00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:11.829 Yeah. If, if it reports into marketing, that's 00:20:11.829 --> 00:20:13.710 fine. As to your point, the marketing leader 00:20:13.710 --> 00:20:15.990 has to understand what comms is and what comms 00:20:15.990 --> 00:20:18.230 is not and let the comms leader do their job. 00:20:18.269 --> 00:20:20.029 Like, don't be like, I'm the, I'm the head of 00:20:20.029 --> 00:20:21.289 marketing. So I'm going to tell comms leader 00:20:21.289 --> 00:20:23.170 how to do their job. It's like what you're, you're 00:20:23.170 --> 00:20:29.180 focused on, you know. It's a ban, Jen. I've had 00:20:29.180 --> 00:20:31.759 a couple candidates, a trend I've heard in the 00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:33.880 last couple of weeks is, because I do a lot of 00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:35.460 these head of comms jobs with early stage companies, 00:20:35.579 --> 00:20:37.500 and they're like, I don't want to spend my day 00:20:37.500 --> 00:20:40.220 having to educate somebody what comms actually 00:20:40.220 --> 00:20:43.839 does. I want to be able to do the actual comms 00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:47.259 work. And I can put up with a lot, because as 00:20:47.259 --> 00:20:48.720 you guys probably know, we're kind of in this 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:52.380 big boss era of not a lot of culture. Have you 00:20:52.380 --> 00:20:56.279 guys heard of the... Nine, nine, six. Yeah. You 00:20:56.279 --> 00:20:58.440 know, where people are. It's back. It's back. 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:00.839 You could tell the audience what nine, nine, 00:21:00.859 --> 00:21:03.420 six is in case they are unaware. Nine, nine, 00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:05.779 six is the principle that you would work nine 00:21:05.779 --> 00:21:08.960 to nine, six days a week. And when I do new business 00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:13.319 screens, I actually ask my potential clients 00:21:13.319 --> 00:21:17.259 if they operate in that model. And, you know. 00:21:17.630 --> 00:21:20.269 The answer, hopefully, is no, we don't. We work 00:21:20.269 --> 00:21:23.950 really hard. We don't do that. So because that's 00:21:23.950 --> 00:21:25.930 not an attractive thing to candidates right now. 00:21:26.349 --> 00:21:30.789 Yeah. We go with 997 around here. No breaks, 00:21:30.930 --> 00:21:35.910 no lunch. One thing that I've been seeing, noticing, 00:21:35.970 --> 00:21:40.869 whatever, is a proliferation of chief of staff 00:21:40.869 --> 00:21:44.230 roles that sound an awful lot like a communications 00:21:44.230 --> 00:21:48.680 leader, right? Without the kind of. PR element. 00:21:48.859 --> 00:21:51.119 It's not that they don't have that. It's just 00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:53.599 that it's not the focus, but they are this right 00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:59.640 hand to the CEO to the point that they are able 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:02.319 to act as a strategic advisor, but then also 00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:06.759 be the person who is telling them what they need 00:22:06.759 --> 00:22:08.180 to say, where they need to say it. And I'm not 00:22:08.180 --> 00:22:11.000 saying that... chief of staff should run a comms 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:13.680 organization. I'm more thinking, should comms 00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:16.859 leaders be looking at chief of staff roles if 00:22:16.859 --> 00:22:20.259 they want to go to the C -suite and not have 00:22:20.259 --> 00:22:22.500 to deal with this whole marketing comms? Well, 00:22:22.500 --> 00:22:24.099 yeah. And what's the pay differential? I'm curious 00:22:24.099 --> 00:22:26.960 about that. That's interesting. That is a good 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:29.400 question. I think that there are some excellent 00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:32.000 chief of staffs and I've worked with two of them 00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:35.819 and they were my contacts in the hire as almost 00:22:35.819 --> 00:22:37.539 served as a hiring manager, you know, kind of 00:22:37.539 --> 00:22:40.170 protecting their CEO. you're running the process 00:22:40.170 --> 00:22:42.670 and pulling the ceo in and they were great and 00:22:42.670 --> 00:22:44.690 they will work in parallel with the head of comms 00:22:44.690 --> 00:22:46.869 and i think i'm thinking of two in my mind who 00:22:46.869 --> 00:22:49.990 are amazing amazing and that the head of comms 00:22:49.990 --> 00:22:51.730 i placed there are so lucky that they get to 00:22:51.730 --> 00:22:54.630 work in parallel but there are other chief of 00:22:54.630 --> 00:22:59.170 staffs um i'm sure that are you know just it's 00:22:59.170 --> 00:23:03.259 it's it's you know butting heads or Exactly. 00:23:03.460 --> 00:23:07.099 I mean, you know, I have been told I've never 00:23:07.099 --> 00:23:09.039 placed a chief of staff, but I've been told it's 00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:10.740 like the McKenzie Bain model. You know, you're 00:23:10.740 --> 00:23:12.539 a consultant and you become a chief of staff, 00:23:12.660 --> 00:23:16.960 which could work and it could. But what if you're

00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:20.880 the CEO who is a modern CEO who now sees I need 00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:23.220 to build my brand online, right? While I need 00:23:23.220 --> 00:23:26.519 to manage my internal. brand and messaging and 00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:28.740 whatever you're gonna your chief of staff is 00:23:28.740 --> 00:23:30.039 who you're gonna rely on for that you're not 00:23:30.039 --> 00:23:32.299 gonna go two levels down to your comms person 00:23:32.299 --> 00:23:34.799 to say hey do this thing when you have the person 00:23:34.799 --> 00:23:37.099 who's already right there i feel like you could 00:23:37.099 --> 00:23:39.339 i don't know i just think that there is this 00:23:39.339 --> 00:23:42.779 kind of it's not just operational right it's 00:23:42.779 --> 00:23:45.460 like so much more than operational that i think 00:23:45.460 --> 00:23:48.680 that I just think that it's a it's a strong next 00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:50.799 step for a lot of communications leaders. And 00:23:50.799 --> 00:23:53.539 I continue to tell when I read the job descriptions, 00:23:53.700 --> 00:23:55.319 I'm like, this does not sound like the chief 00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:59.059 of staff from 10 years ago. So, no, I don't think 00:23:59.059 --> 00:24:01.740 so at all. And I also think like, I mean, I love 00:24:01.740 --> 00:24:04.519 a pivot, like a strong comms person pivoting 00:24:04.519 --> 00:24:07.089 to a chief of staff role. based on your comment 00:24:07.089 --> 00:24:09.670 before would be great. I don't know the discrepancy 00:24:09.670 --> 00:24:12.569 or the differences in pay, but I don't think 00:24:12.569 --> 00:24:15.509 that's a bad pivot if you're looking to take 00:24:15.509 --> 00:24:17.470 a little break from the stressful comms world. 00:24:17.549 --> 00:24:19.309 Not that the chief of staff would be less stressful, 00:24:19.430 --> 00:24:22.309 but - Pay is a great topic to pivot because I 00:24:22.309 --> 00:24:29.720 wanted to ask you, I think that the comms - pay 00:24:29.720 --> 00:24:34.019 pendulum swung very high and has swung way back. 00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:36.700 And now maybe there's a correction. What are 00:24:36.700 --> 00:24:39.440 you seeing as far as like where com salaries 00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:43.240 are landing these days? So I am seeing a correction 00:24:43.240 --> 00:24:46.180 in the market. They were very high and they swung 00:24:46.180 --> 00:24:48.359 way low and now they're coming back. There's 00:24:48.359 --> 00:24:51.019 most companies, um, and let's talk about, you 00:24:51.019 --> 00:24:54.079 know, uh, non -agency roles. Uh, most companies 00:24:54.079 --> 00:24:58.140 offer base plus equity bonuses have gone away. 00:24:58.259 --> 00:25:02.079 There are. companies that do offer bonuses um 00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:06.160 some companies uh almost you know you could also 00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:10.900 like play with the comp so you can have um you 00:25:10.900 --> 00:25:13.839 know keep the base salary down and then add a 00:25:13.839 --> 00:25:17.940 bonus that's all but guaranteed but most salaries 00:25:17.940 --> 00:25:21.900 right now are starting to shift back now there 00:25:21.900 --> 00:25:25.980 are you know, for series C, D, E companies I 00:25:25.980 --> 00:25:28.000 deal with, you know, there's set ranges. There's 00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:30.359 not much flexibility. So for people, you know, 00:25:30.380 --> 00:25:32.059 some people will have to take a pay cut to take 00:25:32.059 --> 00:25:34.420 those jobs, but they will hopefully pick that 00:25:34.420 --> 00:25:38.980 up in equity. And then some people are at bigger 00:25:38.980 --> 00:25:41.000 companies that have, you know, more perks and 00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:42.960 more bonus plan and they're, you know, they can 00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:45.579 stay up with the golden handcuffs. Are the big 00:25:45.579 --> 00:25:48.420 company salaries going down or are they kind 00:25:48.420 --> 00:25:50.480 of remaining what they have been the past few 00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:51.539 years? They're kind of remaining what they have. 00:25:53.019 --> 00:25:55.039 I think their bonuses may have been lower for 00:25:55.039 --> 00:25:58.559 a while. Because I know that in like smaller 00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:01.819 tech companies, it was almost like it wasn't 00:26:01.819 --> 00:26:03.640 just the salaries got lower. They just got rid 00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:07.839 of the senior leadership so that like everybody 00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:09.859 had a lower salary because they just got rid 00:26:09.859 --> 00:26:12.240 of the higher paid people, which is what I saw 00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:14.740 for the past couple of years. But kind of seems 00:26:14.740 --> 00:26:16.299 like we're starting to see senior leadership 00:26:16.299 --> 00:26:19.799 hired again. Are those senior leaders being hired 00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:25.740 at? rates that you think would have been comparable 00:26:25.740 --> 00:26:31.259 three years ago? I think it would have been rates 00:26:31.259 --> 00:26:33.579 that would be, I look like kind of before COVID 00:26:33.579 --> 00:26:35.539 because that was a boom. So I think the rates 00:26:35.539 --> 00:26:37.380 would have been comfortable before COVID. I think 00:26:37.380 --> 00:26:40.400 there was a lot of salary inflation during those, 00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:43.359 those, you know, busy years to try to land people 00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:47.640 and build teams. And comms is still the least 00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:50.940 paid function in marketing. Do we agree with 00:26:50.940 --> 00:26:54.200 that? I think that's probably true. I mean, you 00:26:54.200 --> 00:26:57.079 know, it could be. It just depends on the organization. 00:26:57.079 --> 00:26:59.440 Do we agree it should be that way? Hell no. Do 00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:02.920 we agree that it should not be that way? I don't 00:27:02.920 --> 00:27:06.420 like to make those, you know, those big blanket 00:27:06.420 -->

00:27:08.000 statements because there's always exceptions 00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:11.460 in different companies. And analyst relations 00:27:11.460 --> 00:27:14.339 pays a ton compared to many marketing roles. 00:27:14.440 --> 00:27:16.799 And that usually falls within the communications 00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:22.380 bucket. I still see social media being paid like 00:27:22.380 --> 00:27:25.980 pennies on the dollar when it's like, we are, 00:27:26.099 --> 00:27:28.819 this is the most important channel for a lot 00:27:28.819 --> 00:27:30.660 of you. And you're like, let's just get the intern. 00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:35.119 Right. Yeah. With that strategy. Cause you know, 00:27:35.140 --> 00:27:38.059 the social media positions tend to hire younger 00:27:38.059 --> 00:27:41.339 because they've kind of grown up in. the social 00:27:41.339 --> 00:27:45.059 media era versus us dinosaurs. I guess. But now 00:27:45.059 --> 00:27:47.740 the like younger social people that they're 35, 00:27:48.059 --> 00:27:52.900 like they were, they, you know, like real salaries 00:27:52.900 --> 00:27:56.480 too. Yeah. I was just going to ask you something 00:27:56.480 --> 00:27:58.019 on that. Of course, I forgot what I was going 00:27:58.019 --> 00:27:59.920 to say. Social media brings up a LinkedIn topic 00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:04.039 for me. So, so, you know, Becca and I spend a 00:28:04.039 --> 00:28:05.380 lot of time on LinkedIn. I know you probably 00:28:05.380 --> 00:28:07.880 do for your job, but in a different way. You 00:28:07.880 --> 00:28:10.480 use it for a much more of a utilitarian function 00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:14.740 and less of a personal branding function. But 00:28:14.740 --> 00:28:18.640 to what extent have you seen or do you see candidates 00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:21.960 who are in the comms world using LinkedIn to 00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:25.759 sort of improve their own stock on the marketplace, 00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:28.980 essentially? Are you seeing any premium attached 00:28:28.980 --> 00:28:31.440 to people who are doing a great job on that platform 00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:34.920 in particular or other platforms generally? Yes. 00:28:35.019 --> 00:28:37.000 So I love LinkedIn. I think everybody should 00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:39.440 be on LinkedIn. I think everyone's job seeking 00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:41.619 or not. Their LinkedIn needs to be up to date. 00:28:41.660 --> 00:28:43.059 It needs to be tracked. You always want to have 00:28:43.059 --> 00:28:44.880 a resume ready and a LinkedIn that tracks to 00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:47.779 that. I think there are certain people who are 00:28:47.779 --> 00:28:50.579 going to be more comfortable posting on LinkedIn, 00:28:50.740 --> 00:28:53.000 that leadership, including the three of us. And 00:28:53.000 --> 00:28:55.619 there's going to be other people who just that's 00:28:55.619 --> 00:28:57.640 just not their thing. And I totally respect that. 00:28:58.279 --> 00:29:00.319 How they can stay active on LinkedIn would be 00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:02.920 too common and to like post and just be an active 00:29:02.920 --> 00:29:05.940 user. i also always advise people to constantly 00:29:05.940 --> 00:29:08.339 be tweaking their linkedin tweaking their bio 00:29:08.339 --> 00:29:11.680 tweaking their words you know it's a um a way 00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:14.519 to present yourself um you know make sure you 00:29:14.519 --> 00:29:17.240 have a good headshot if you don't want to hire 00:29:17.240 --> 00:29:20.640 a professional photographer you could Send some 00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:23.759 pictures to AI for $20 and get one. Make sure 00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:26.779 you have a good banner behind your LinkedIn profile. 00:29:27.240 --> 00:29:31.059 And I think, you know, having all that stuff 00:29:31.059 --> 00:29:33.680 and being active on LinkedIn will have you present 00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:39.319 well. But I do think if you are interviewing 00:29:39.319 --> 00:29:41.859 at a job, you should expect the hiring manager 00:29:41.859 --> 00:29:45.000 to be going through your LinkedIn. So whatever 00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:49.400 you are putting out there represents you. If 00:29:49.400 --> 00:29:51.980 it looks like you've been asleep for five or 00:29:51.980 --> 00:29:53.819 six years, I don't think that's a good look either. 00:29:54.339 --> 00:29:56.720 When you talk about tweaking your profile, do 00:29:56.720 --> 00:29:59.960 you mean, is it important algorithmically? In 00:29:59.960 --> 00:30:01.180 other words, if you're tweaking your profile. 00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:06.140 Yes, it's important algorithmically. In my data, 00:30:06.339 --> 00:30:10.380 from my mind, I have lots of times when I reach 00:30:10.380 --> 00:30:12.579 out to a candidate and they say, that's so interesting. 00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:15.220 I just updated my LinkedIn, which means you appeared 00:30:15.220 --> 00:30:19.420 in a search for me. I always recommend people 00:30:19.420 --> 00:30:24.700 do that. My data that I collect from 20 years 00:30:24.700 --> 00:30:27.819 of reaching out to comms candidates, but I do, 00:30:27.859 --> 00:30:29.960 you know, you, you want to be active on LinkedIn. 00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:33.619 That's like, similarly, when you post and comment, 00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:36.079 you are telling LinkedIn, hi, I'm here, I'm awake. 00:30:36.259 --> 00:30:39.099 And so it shows, I think like when I don't comment 00:30:39.099 --> 00:30:41.970 a lot, but I'll go and post. my reach is totally 00:30:41.970 --> 00:30:44.549 impacted because I really do think it's like 00:30:44.549 --> 00:30:46.230 priming the pump, right? You're telling LinkedIn, 00:30:46.349 --> 00:30:50.140 Hey, I'm here. pay attention to me, I'm active. 00:30:50.359 --> 00:30:52.259 So if you make those tweaks to your profile, 00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:54.539 it's telling the recruiters this person wants 00:30:54.539 --> 00:30:56.940 to be hired, right? Because they are actively 00:30:56.940 -->

00:31:00.299 changing it. What's the downside? Like even if 00:31:00.299 --> 00:31:02.740 you just went and like rearranged the way that 00:31:02.740 --> 00:31:04.599 you're - I never thought about tweaking your 00:31:04.599 --> 00:31:07.839 profile as a way to wake up the algorithm. That's 00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:09.839 never entered my mind and largely because I'm 00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:11.759 secure in my profession, I don't really have 00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:14.039 to get a job. But what great advice for someone 00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:16.519 who's considering making a switch or even just 00:31:16.519 --> 00:31:20.400 passively looking. But, but I do want to say 00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:22.240 like, some people are not comfortable doing thought 00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:25.559 leadership and that is fine. You know, self -promotion, 00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:28.640 you know, that's fine if you don't want to do 00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:30.519 that, but you can still be active on LinkedIn. 00:31:30.539 --> 00:31:33.519 And I was just going to say, this is just my 00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:35.380 data. And obviously it's skewed differently than 00:31:35.380 --> 00:31:37.700 other people's because I do brand building on 00:31:37.700 --> 00:31:40.680 LinkedIn. But if you go look at how I'm discovered 00:31:40.680 --> 00:31:44.440 on LinkedIn. less than 1 % is through search. 00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:47.720 So if people are looking for a communications 00:31:47.720 --> 00:31:51.359 leader or whatever, less than 1 % of the people 00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:53.660 who find me are doing it through a search bar. 00:31:53.759 --> 00:31:56.079 People are finding me, it's like 30 % through 00:31:56.079 --> 00:31:58.759 comments. So me commenting on other people, that's 00:31:58.759 --> 00:32:00.799 how they are ending up landing on my profile. 00:32:00.980 --> 00:32:03.680 And then obviously my posting and then other 00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:07.920 people sharing my posts and whatever, which is 00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:11.440 really like, okay, take the posting out of it. 00:32:11.759 --> 00:32:15.420 30 % of my views come from just comments, people 00:32:15.420 --> 00:32:17.660 seeing my comments. So to your point, you don't 00:32:17.660 --> 00:32:19.720 want to be a thought leader. Fine. You do have 00:32:19.720 --> 00:32:22.480 a perspective. Go start commenting on people's 00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:24.940 posts because you will be more discoverable. 00:32:24.980 --> 00:32:27.960 If you're looking for a job that will like help 00:32:27.960 --> 00:32:30.619 people land on your profile. And they'll be like, 00:32:30.660 --> 00:32:34.000 not only do I see what this person, what their 00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:36.619 professional experience is, I also can get a 00:32:36.619 --> 00:32:38.380 sense of who they are because I can read what. 00:32:38.650 --> 00:32:40.630 their voice sounds like in their comments or 00:32:40.630 --> 00:32:42.250 what their perspective is, or if they have a 00:32:42.250 --> 00:32:44.450 good idea and blah, blah, blah. So I'm with you. 00:32:44.470 --> 00:32:46.569 I think if, even if you don't want to post on 00:32:46.569 --> 00:32:48.829 LinkedIn, go just start commenting because you 00:32:48.829 --> 00:32:51.309 will be way more discoverable. And if you're 00:32:51.309 --> 00:32:53.089 looking for opportunities, whether it's a job 00:32:53.089 --> 00:32:55.609 or something else, like show up. For all those 00:32:55.609 --> 00:32:58.190 people listening to this podcast right now, it's 00:32:58.190 --> 00:33:00.009 critically important that you spend most of your 00:33:00.009 --> 00:33:04.049 time commenting on my post. That's how you really 00:33:04.049 --> 00:33:07.009 juice the algorithm. That is the secret to success. 00:33:07.349 --> 00:33:12.069 It is, 100%. Yeah, so yeah, no, I'm a huge fan 00:33:12.069 --> 00:33:14.609 of LinkedIn. I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn. 00:33:15.089 --> 00:33:18.230 I think it's a great tool. I was an early user 00:33:18.230 --> 00:33:22.769 and I would encourage everyone to constantly 00:33:22.769 --> 00:33:26.339 update, tweak their LinkedIn. I actually pitched 00:33:26.339 --> 00:33:28.900 Reid Hoffman in the very earliest, like I think 00:33:28.900 --> 00:33:30.839 maybe the first year or second year of LinkedIn's 00:33:30.839 --> 00:33:33.700 existence, pitched him twice with my then team 00:33:33.700 --> 00:33:36.400 at Shift Communications in San Francisco. So 00:33:36.400 --> 00:33:39.019 I was super, super early on and I just did not 00:33:39.019 --> 00:33:41.099 get what the power or what the vision was of 00:33:41.099 --> 00:33:42.799 LinkedIn. We didn't win. We came in second place 00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:44.779 twice and I deserved to come in second place 00:33:44.779 --> 00:33:47.359 because I really, it was a glorified Rolodex 00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:49.779 to me and I just, I couldn't see the larger. 00:33:50.410 --> 00:33:53.190 plan and uh boy boy has that changed and now 00:33:53.190 --> 00:33:54.990 i'm probably one of the biggest evangelists on 00:33:54.990 --> 00:33:57.869 the planet for this thing yeah crazy i mean it 00:33:57.869 --> 00:34:00.789 was a rolodex for a long time like that is what 00:34:00.789 --> 00:34:03.269 it was boring as hell do you remember you used 00:34:03.269 --> 00:34:05.230 to go to restaurants my friend who was in sales 00:34:05.230 --> 00:34:07.190 said he would go to like restaurants and they'd 00:34:07.190 --> 00:34:09.889 have like a a fishbowl they'd do a drawing with 00:34:09.889 --> 00:34:12.530 business cards and he used to like take take 00:34:12.530 --> 00:34:14.409 the business cards and that's how he got sales 00:34:14.409 --> 00:34:18.869 leads oh my god modernized um you know the rolodex 00:34:19.400 --> 00:34:21.340 We had a competition at Shift Communications 00:34:21.340 --> 00:34:23.559 to try to get the most connections. And I remember 00:34:23.559 --> 00:34:26.300 I was the first person to get

to 500. I was like, 00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:30.219 yes, I have 500 movers and shakers I'm connected 00:34:30.219 --> 00:34:35.639 to in Silicon Valley, baby. And now I can't take 00:34:35.639 --> 00:34:38.199 any more connections because 35 ,000 is the limit. 00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:39.420 And I maxed out like five years. That's amazing. 00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:41.739 That's amazing. What are you going to do if you 00:34:41.739 --> 00:34:43.639 find someone really good that wants to connect 00:34:43.639 --> 00:34:46.280 with you? I will delete people who are kind of 00:34:46.280 --> 00:34:48.320 dead weight in my feed. I go through and prune 00:34:48.320 --> 00:34:50.760 that every now and then. I haven't hit mine yet. 00:34:50.980 --> 00:34:53.239 I haven't hit mine either. But it's good to know, 00:34:53.260 --> 00:34:55.320 Becca, we know that we're going to be cut off. 00:34:56.860 --> 00:34:58.599 And you know what's so annoying about that, just 00:34:58.599 --> 00:35:00.440 to go off on a little tangent, is like every 00:35:00.440 --> 00:35:02.699 time someone sends me a connection request and 00:35:02.699 --> 00:35:04.909 I'm maxed out, I have to be like. I'm sorry, 00:35:05.010 --> 00:35:06.969 I cannot accept your connection request. Unfortunately, 00:35:07.309 --> 00:35:10.690 LinkedIn limits me to 35. Can't they just automatically 00:35:10.690 --> 00:35:13.190 do that so I don't have to do that? Or worse, 00:35:13.289 --> 00:35:15.369 if I want to ignore the people, that's worse. 00:35:15.610 --> 00:35:18.210 Why am I in that situation? You cut me off. Can 00:35:18.210 --> 00:35:21.010 you please explain for me? You know what? Becca 00:35:21.010 --> 00:35:25.449 has some contacts at LinkedIn. No, no, no. I 00:35:25.449 --> 00:35:28.849 have a theory. LinkedIn hates its users. That's 00:35:28.849 --> 00:35:31.409 why Perry, this is my theory. And if you ask 00:35:31.409 --> 00:35:34.130 me or any of the content creators on LinkedIn, 00:35:34.170 --> 00:35:37.289 we've got like side chats going where we all 00:35:37.289 --> 00:35:39.630 come and gripe about X, Y, or Z. And the conclusion 00:35:39.630 --> 00:35:42.949 we always come to is LinkedIn hates its content 00:35:42.949 --> 00:35:46.409 creators. So here we are. I don't think I defend 00:35:46.409 --> 00:35:49.590 LinkedIn. I don't think that's true, but well, 00:35:49.670 --> 00:35:53.420 they are monetizing. not content creators. They 00:35:53.420 --> 00:35:56.679 are paying non -LinkedIn users to come to LinkedIn 00:35:56.679 --> 00:36:00.119 and use LinkedIn. Why not pay your content creators 00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:03.079 who have been here for years? Now, I fully agree 00:36:03.079 --> 00:36:05.519 with that. And I know this is a little far afield 00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:07.000 from what we were talking about initially, but 00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:12.599 I will say though they do not. do transactional 00:36:12.599 --> 00:36:15.960 stuff by paying people like me, I will say that 00:36:15.960 --> 00:36:18.059 I've enjoyed millions and millions and millions 00:36:18.059 --> 00:36:20.860 of dollars of revenue derived from my presence 00:36:20.860 --> 00:36:24.340 on this platform. So is it direct? No, but - 00:36:24.340 --> 00:36:28.820 Absolutely. But man, what a correlation. Absolutely. 00:36:29.219 --> 00:36:35.340 Yeah. I got some sweet brand sponsorships that 00:36:35.340 --> 00:36:37.579 are not worth millions of dollars in revenue. 00:36:37.659 --> 00:36:41.889 We'll pay you $40 per post. No, my floor price 00:36:41.889 --> 00:36:45.070 now, I've become very a stickler on it. I'm like, 00:36:45.090 --> 00:36:46.969 look, if LinkedIn's not going to pay me, you 00:36:46.969 --> 00:36:52.730 are. All right. Now that we're getting close 00:36:52.730 --> 00:36:55.610 to time, we have to go to our rapid fire questions, 00:36:55.889 --> 00:36:59.530 Brooke, which are my favorite part of the show 00:36:59.530 --> 00:37:02.130 because we ask the same questions to everybody, 00:37:02.230 --> 00:37:04.550 but we're doing a different format. Than we used 00:37:04.550 --> 00:37:06.329 to. So I'm going to ask you the same questions 00:37:06.329 --> 00:37:08.570 I ask everybody. And then Perry is going to come 00:37:08.570 --> 00:37:11.849 in with a new unhinged. Great. We all have to 00:37:11.849 --> 00:37:13.269 answer a question that I don't even know what 00:37:13.269 --> 00:37:15.710 the question is. So I'm excited to hear it, but 00:37:15.710 --> 00:37:17.750 we're going to start with the easy ones. So Brooke, 00:37:17.849 --> 00:37:20.829 you get to erase one corporate buzzword from 00:37:20.829 --> 00:37:24.710 existence. What is it? My God, that's such a 00:37:24.710 --> 00:37:28.230 good question. Let's circle back. Ooh, nice. 00:37:29.360 --> 00:37:32.320 Okay. Well, let's circle back on that one. You're 00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:35.400 about to give a presentation in front of 50 ,000 00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:39.320 people, like a stadium style. What song do you 00:37:39.320 --> 00:37:45.579 walk to the stage on? Let's see. I would probably 00:37:45.579 --> 00:37:50.400 do the killer song. Mr. Brightside. Nice. All 00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:56.550 right. You're Mr. Brightside. Mrs. Brightside. 00:37:56.690 --> 00:37:59.230 You're Mrs. Brightside. If you had to do a TED 00:37:59.230 --> 00:38:03.730 Talk, Mrs. Brightside, on anything but recruiting, 00:38:03.889 --> 00:38:06.530 marketing, communications, whatever, what would 00:38:06.530 --> 00:38:14.170 your topic be? I would talk about how to raise 00:38:14.170 --> 00:38:17.769 resilient children, because I think that is so 00:38:17.769 --> 00:38:22.409 important. And I think that how to not helicopter 00:38:22.409 --> 00:38:26.940 parent and how to you know, have give children 00:38:26.940 --> 00:38:30.619 the right values. I mean, I would have to do 00:38:30.619 --> 00:38:32.059 a lot of research to do that. I was going to 00:38:32.059 --> 00:38:34.079 say, I mean, are you

already an expert? Can you 00:38:34.079 --> 00:38:39.639 give us? I'm not at all, but I want to have Brazilian 00:38:39.639 --> 00:38:44.780 children. So I love it. All right. And this fun, 00:38:44.860 --> 00:38:48.320 my final question, you get to only use one emoji 00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:51.820 for the rest of your life. Which one? I mean, 00:38:51.880 --> 00:38:55.539 I would probably do, um, I would do the one where 00:38:55.539 --> 00:38:59.760 the, the head is like cracking like an egg and 00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:03.099 like melting. Oh, the melty face. Yeah. Melty 00:39:03.099 --> 00:39:06.420 face. Number one. Yeah. We all love the melty. 00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:08.599 Yeah. I think a lot of us are using that far 00:39:08.599 --> 00:39:10.940 too often these days, but it's like, it can mean 00:39:10.940 --> 00:39:15.519 so much. You can good day, bad day. I'm embarrassed. 00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:20.179 I'm ashamed. I hate this. I hate my life. Anyway. 00:39:20.510 --> 00:39:23.070 carry on perry time for some unhinged madness 00:39:23.070 --> 00:39:26.530 all right brand new question i cooked up today 00:39:26.530 --> 00:39:29.769 um all right a lot of these have to do with cash 00:39:29.769 --> 00:39:31.869 like what would you do for cash basically so 00:39:31.869 --> 00:39:35.050 brooke you are given an opportunity to pocket 00:39:35.050 --> 00:39:38.489 20 million free and clear interest -free tax 00:39:38.489 --> 00:39:42.889 -free today 20 million dollars okay that's that's 00:39:42.889 --> 00:39:44.710 walking that's right riding off into the sunset 00:39:44.710 --> 00:39:47.360 money All you have to do in exchange for that 00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:49.739 is take one bunny rabbit and throw it into a 00:39:49.739 --> 00:39:53.920 wood chipper. Do you throw the bunny into the 00:39:53.920 --> 00:39:56.320 wood chipper and take the $20 million? No, I 00:39:56.320 --> 00:40:00.320 would never kill an animal or hurt an animal. 00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:03.000 One bunny into the wood chipper. It's over instantly. 00:40:03.380 --> 00:40:06.400 I don't think I could do it. Okay. You're saying 00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:10.079 no? $20 million. I'm taking this $20 million 00:40:10.079 --> 00:40:12.420 right back. You have a few more seconds. What 00:40:12.420 --> 00:40:15.719 about $100 million? I just, I don't, I don't, 00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:18.900 I don't like violence. I'm not asking you to 00:40:18.900 --> 00:40:20.760 like violence. I'm asking you, would you pay 00:40:20.760 --> 00:40:24.159 $20 million? I honestly don't think I would because 00:40:24.159 --> 00:40:26.860 I would have to live with myself every day of 00:40:26.860 --> 00:40:29.820 hurting an animal. And that's not the right way 00:40:29.820 --> 00:40:33.559 to make money. Now, how about a frog? I mean, 00:40:33.579 --> 00:40:36.099 again, it's, I don't, I don't like these questions. 00:40:38.090 --> 00:40:40.809 I don't want to promote animals or people. I 00:40:40.809 --> 00:40:45.090 promote kindness. What about a frog? 20 million, 00:40:45.250 --> 00:40:49.250 one frog. I cannot see myself like literally 00:40:49.250 --> 00:40:52.429 intentionally killing a human or an animal in 00:40:52.429 --> 00:40:54.630 any way. Okay. What about a spider? The last 00:40:54.630 --> 00:41:00.059 one. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, spiders, I would take 00:41:00.059 --> 00:41:03.099 them back. These are really strange questions. 00:41:04.019 --> 00:41:07.219 Unhinged. Perry, it's really unhinged. I just 00:41:07.219 --> 00:41:09.280 thought of it. The reason I'm going back on that 00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:11.940 is because when I see a spider, I take a piece 00:41:11.940 --> 00:41:14.739 of Kleenex and then I flush it, you know, wash 00:41:14.739 --> 00:41:17.099 it down the throat. I just scream and then somebody 00:41:17.099 --> 00:41:20.059 comes and kills it for me. I'll tell you the 00:41:20.059 --> 00:41:21.539 other one I thought of today that I think is 00:41:21.539 --> 00:41:25.619 less sort of insane. Would you take $20 million, 00:41:25.940 --> 00:41:30.139 Brooke, except every time you laugh from now 00:41:30.139 --> 00:41:32.900 on, you laugh exactly like a donkey. As loud 00:41:32.900 --> 00:41:37.579 as a donkey. Totally fine. Totally fine. That's 00:41:37.579 --> 00:41:48.340 funny. Oh, my God. She is so rich. She just has 00:41:48.340 --> 00:41:53.469 this weird. Laugh. Yeah, but look at her jewelry. 00:41:53.730 --> 00:42:00.050 Look at her clothes. Who's the donkey now? Look 00:42:00.050 --> 00:42:02.550 at all our homes. What about you, Perry? Would 00:42:02.550 --> 00:42:06.289 you kill a bunny? I think I would. I'm sorry 00:42:06.289 --> 00:42:08.949 to say. For $20 million, I think I would. And 00:42:08.949 --> 00:42:11.750 I say that because I've shot animals like a brown 00:42:11.750 --> 00:42:14.809 dog in my yard. I think I would do it. I'd be 00:42:14.809 --> 00:42:17.760 very unhappy, very sad with myself. I would not 00:42:17.760 --> 00:42:19.780 like anything about it, but I would like all 00:42:19.780 --> 00:42:22.539 the things I could do with $20 million. Here's 00:42:22.539 --> 00:42:24.539 the thing. A lot of people, bunnies are a nuisance. 00:42:24.980 --> 00:42:28.000 My neighbor just told me that he traps squirrels 00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:30.280 and takes them off and drops them 30 miles away 00:42:30.280 --> 00:42:31.840 because he doesn't want to kill them. But in 00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:33.860 the county I live in, if you trap a squirrel, 00:42:34.059 --> 00:42:36.719 you have to kill it. That's the rule. I live 00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:39.360 in southern New Hampshire. All of my neighbors, 00:42:39.460 --> 00:42:41.940 for real, are killing squirrels, bunnies, chipmunks. 00:42:41.940 --> 00:42:45.070 It's really dark. Every day. you guys said this 00:42:45.070 --> 00:42:47.429 podcast was called under embargo not talking 00:42:47.429 --> 00:42:50.409 about killing animals i warned you that was

unhinged 00:42:50.409 --> 00:42:54.269 that's all perry sign up for no note for the 00:42:54.269 --> 00:42:58.070 future no murder questions perry yes but that's 00:42:58.070 --> 00:43:01.050 gonna be like would you rather like well but 00:43:01.050 --> 00:43:02.869 we have time to give you one of the original 00:43:02.869 --> 00:43:04.650 ones which was would you rather have hiccups 00:43:04.650 --> 00:43:06.829 first but how what was the question would you 00:43:06.829 --> 00:43:09.849 rather have hiccups for six months or chop up 00:43:09.849 --> 00:43:13.070 your own pinky i would have hiccups for six months 00:43:13.070 --> 00:43:16.170 um Guess what Becca would do? Speaking of chopping, 00:43:16.210 --> 00:43:18.010 you said chopping off my own finger. No, she 00:43:18.010 --> 00:43:20.789 would have hiccups. Oh, wait, I would not have 00:43:20.789 --> 00:43:22.389 hiccups. Yeah, Becca would chop off her finger. 00:43:22.829 --> 00:43:25.710 I watched a show last night, a new Netflix show, 00:43:25.909 --> 00:43:32.210 and that was a punishment. What's the show? It's 00:43:32.210 --> 00:43:34.849 called Under Embargo. It's called Under Embargo. 00:43:34.929 --> 00:43:37.590 No, it's called Black Rabbit. It's with Jason 00:43:37.590 --> 00:43:39.869 Bateman. Oh, right. Is it good? I heard it's 00:43:39.869 --> 00:43:43.360 good. Black Rabbit? It's really great to watch 00:43:43.360 --> 00:43:45.739 right before bed if you're like a comms pro or 00:43:45.739 --> 00:43:48.500 recruiter and you just want to like, you know, 00:43:48.519 --> 00:43:50.960 take a load off. You're like at the edge of your 00:43:50.960 --> 00:43:54.659 seat. It's how I unwind every night with a little 00:43:54.659 --> 00:43:58.639 anxiety inducing. True crime. Well, you need 00:43:58.639 --> 00:44:01.440 to, right? It's the only way you can like normalize. 00:44:01.579 --> 00:44:04.639 Yes. So to recap for our listeners at home, Brooke 00:44:04.639 --> 00:44:06.480 would throw a rabbit into a wood chipper. Thank 00:44:06.480 --> 00:44:11.309 you. And she loves murder shows before bed. Thank 00:44:11.309 --> 00:44:14.489 you for coming to this show. I do like true crime. 00:44:14.650 --> 00:44:16.590 I don't know what that says about me. I think 00:44:16.590 --> 00:44:18.769 it says you're normal. My kid asked me one day 00:44:18.769 --> 00:44:20.329 in the car because we listened to like podcasts. 00:44:20.409 --> 00:44:23.750 He's like, mom, if I like murder shows, does 00:44:23.750 --> 00:44:25.989 that mean I'm going to be a murderer? And I was 00:44:25.989 --> 00:44:29.030 like, it does not because I love murder shows 00:44:29.030 --> 00:44:31.989 and I would not kill a bunny. So there you go. 00:44:32.110 --> 00:44:34.090 I was just going to say, Perry, do you like true 00:44:34.090 --> 00:44:38.000 crime? Do you mean the show? oh just true crime 00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:40.519 shows yeah i like that okay because you would 00:44:40.519 --> 00:44:42.280 kill a bunny so we're just trying to figure out 00:44:42.280 --> 00:44:45.420 the profile i mean reluctantly but yes i mean 00:44:45.420 --> 00:44:48.360 yeah he's not going to celebrate it the wood 00:44:48.360 --> 00:44:52.199 chipper part really makes it instantaneous that's 00:44:52.199 --> 00:44:54.699 the thing that's good about it there's nothing 00:44:54.699 --> 00:44:58.800 good about it honestly all right well brooke 00:44:58.800 --> 00:45:01.900 i'm gonna give you an opportunity to share anything 00:45:01.900 --> 00:45:04.199 you would like with our listeners or with us 00:45:04.199 --> 00:45:06.519 or whatever. Is there anything that you would 00:45:06.519 --> 00:45:09.940 like to share? I mean, I could share a lot of 00:45:09.940 --> 00:45:14.960 things. One, I don't kill animals. I think what 00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:18.179 I would want to share is that it has been a really 00:45:18.179 --> 00:45:21.420 frustrating job market for comms people for quite 00:45:21.420 --> 00:45:24.679 some time. And I can see that and I hear that. 00:45:24.820 --> 00:45:28.840 And I do believe it's getting better. and i do 00:45:28.840 --> 00:45:30.460 believe more opportunities are being created 00:45:30.460 --> 00:45:33.739 and i do believe we are on an upward swing i'm 00:45:33.739 --> 00:45:36.019 very direct but i'm also optimistic and i i do 00:45:36.019 --> 00:45:38.699 think things are getting better i love the optimism 00:45:38.699 --> 00:45:43.760 how can how can people find you brooke um a great 00:45:43.760 --> 00:45:47.099 way to find me becca is on linkedin um under 00:45:47.099 --> 00:45:49.500 uh brooke krueger and then you can also learn 00:45:49.500 --> 00:45:51.500 more about my company casey partners on my website 00:45:51.500 --> 00:45:55.840 which is www .kc -partners .com And I'll give 00:45:55.840 --> 00:45:57.960 you the endorsement that Brooke knows everybody 00:45:57.960 --> 00:46:00.400 because anytime I ask anyone if they know Brooke, 00:46:00.440 --> 00:46:02.059 they're like, yeah, obviously I know Brooke. 00:46:02.139 --> 00:46:04.159 So there you go. If you're in the comms world, 00:46:04.260 --> 00:46:08.719 get on Brooke's radar. Perry, any final thoughts? 00:46:09.420 --> 00:46:11.280 I'm just really disappointed in Brooke's choice 00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:15.139 to kill rabbits. That's it. That's going to be 00:46:15.139 --> 00:46:17.900 like, that's going to be like. We promise that 00:46:17.900 --> 00:46:23.070 won't be the clip, Brooke. Brooke Kruger, recruiter, 00:46:23.170 --> 00:46:27.250 kills bunnies, bunny killer. BK, bunny killer. 00:46:28.070 --> 00:46:33.170 Brooke Kruger or Freddy Kruger? Am I right? Sorry, 00:46:33.289 --> 00:46:36.829 Brooke. We really brought your crazy level to 00:46:36.829 --> 00:46:38.809 a whole new one today. This is good. You guys 00:46:38.809 --> 00:46:41.869 got me out of my head for the past hour, so I 00:46:41.869 --> 00:46:43.969 love it. We had a blast. It was great. It really 00:46:43.969 --> 00:46:45.989 was fascinating to hear about what your world 00:46:45.989 --> 00:46:47.710 is like and how it relates to ours. It's really 00:46:47.710 --> 00:46:50.190 a fascinating time. Yes. Thank you for coming, 00:46:50.269 --> 00:46:51.349 Brooke. Thanks a lot.