TRANSCRIPTIE 🔗
Gary D Stocker (00:01.317)
Welcome back to another really, really special episode of This Week in College Viability. Hi, everybody. Gary Stalker back in front of the blue Yeti microphone. Some people think I'm behind the microphone, but no, I'm in front of the microphone. And today we're doing the third in a series with John Nichols and Kate Colbert on Requiem for a College, the second edition of which came out on July 8th of this year. And it has is creating
a lot of feedback, a lot of interest throughout the publication industry and throughout higher education. John Nichols, thanks for making time to chat.
Jon (00:37.406)
Thanks for having me.
Gary D Stocker (00:38.683)
Kate Nichols, always a pleasure to have you on the show to talk about anything you want to, ma'am. But let's jump right into the questions. John, second edition, what has been the reaction? It's been out for a couple of months now. What's been the reaction?
Kate Colbert (00:43.288)
Kate Nichols.
Jon (00:54.41)
It's been really interesting to see the reactions. There have been emotional ones from people who have gone through small college closures or suspensions of operation who have thanked me for telling stories that were similar to their own. There have been people who have thanked me for drawing attention to the trend that's happening because people who are caught up in it are finally being seen.
and others who have said that the research component to the book helped them understand why it's happening and what the different financial forces are that are causing it.
Gary D Stocker (01:36.889)
And so it's been what, John, five years that you've been writing two different editions, two different versions of Requiem for a College. And then I know you share this in really both editions of the book, but share with the listeners, share with the listeners some of what you have learned writing about closures and about higher education in America in the last five or so years.
Jon (02:00.958)
Well, I think the main thing I've learned, and I repeat this several times in the book, is there's no such thing as an institution that's too good to fail or too loved to fail. When I look now at the arguments, including those from my own father, as readers will find out in the book, on the board of trustees on the day when the vote was taken to, whether or not to suspend operations, those who voted
Gary D Stocker (02:18.609)
You
Jon (02:28.7)
know who wanted to keep the college open, their arguments boil down to, we're good. What we do is good. Well, that may be, but if it's not generating revenue and if it's not something that is sustainable, it doesn't really matter how good you are or how much the alumni and the students and faculty and everybody involved love the institution. There were people on the board who voted to suspend that I know love.
Gary D Stocker (02:53.574)
Yeah.
Jon (02:58.078)
St. Joseph's College, but it was the only thing left on that particular day to do. So that's something I've definitely learned and that kind of in tandem with Kate's book, we have to have a new look at higher education, how it's delivered, how it is. We've had this four year residential model.
in a lot of ways for God knows how long. We now in year 2025 have to start looking at different ways to deliver our education. And we have to look at ways that don't include living somewhere for four years, that don't include necessarily being in a dorm. A lot of new opportunities that at the same time don't compromise the meaning of college.
Gary D Stocker (03:29.115)
Yeah.
Gary D Stocker (03:57.137)
And so that was kind of a question about college leaders, board members and those kinds of things. So what, you know, if there are John, if there are faculty and staff and even students listening to this podcast and based on your experiences at St. Joseph's College in Indiana, Rensselaer, Indiana, what guidance, John, would you provide them if they see similarities to what happened at St. Joseph's to their college?
Jon (04:23.781)
If it's faculty, staff, students, then I would say you have to demand transparency from the board members. And that is easier in certain situations than others. If it's a private college and most of these are, that's harder to get done. But there has to be a vehement demand that they be transparent about every single financial figure.
for again, if it's trustees and leadership, that warning that nobody's too loved to fail, that you have to have an honest look at things. And at the same time, you may have the time to change things around, but that has to be done judiciously. That means you can't necessarily change or excuse me, chase every shiny object. Yes, engineering degrees are in demand.
But do you have the infrastructure to offer such a degree before you launch a program? Do you have the capital to attract talent to teach in that program that's competitive with industry? mean, that leads to another point that I read in, there's a wonderful sub stack out there called Finding Equilibrium. It's by two economists and they write about higher education. They just had a post.
Gary D Stocker (05:22.065)
Yeah.
Jon (05:45.766)
about five myths of higher education. And one of them is that if we adopt a corporate model, we'll make it. Well, that in and of itself isn't going to save you. And they go on to explain it's not the the I'm using my words here. The corporate model isn't the one true ring of power from Lord of the Rings. If you look at the corporate sector, 20 percent of businesses fail. In the beginning, that they also I'm using their figures here from the post.
that 70 to 90 percent of mergers of long-standing companies fail, that all these product rollouts that are costly and they end up failing. So there's a lot of failure in the corporate model. So that doesn't necessarily mean you're automatically going to be saved if you adopt this profit-centered model. You also have to be aware, I would say, of what
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comes with it, the unintended consequences, because, for example,
Gary D Stocker (06:20.56)
Yeah.
Kate Colbert (06:28.59)
you
Gary D Stocker (06:29.773)
Yeah.
Jon (06:42.041)
if you start treating everyone there as a fungible employee, well, that has consequences. As a member of Gen X, I can quote the movie Office Space to you and say that that attitude is gonna make someone work just hard enough not to get fired. And is that who you want in the classroom? Is that who you want? Most importantly, working student support staff.
Gary D Stocker (06:52.977)
You
Kate Colbert (06:53.646)
Thank
Gary D Stocker (06:59.441)
You
Jon (07:08.873)
for who are points of contact with your customer base. Is that what you want? So there's a lot that needs to be considered, including what we call ethical shutdown. If it starts to look like that things are heading in a bad direction, in addition to trying to figure out what you can do to turn it around, you have to do what Paul Langto did at presentation college and figure out also what
how much money and time we need to shut down ethically if we have to. And that means paying out the best possible severance to all employees, give enough teach outs to all our students, and just have time rather than it being abrupt. Dr. Malik Khoury said something, as Kate likes to say, he's eminently quotable, and a lot of times he is, he really is. And he said,
Kate Colbert (08:04.046)
He is. He really is.
Gary D Stocker (08:04.489)
I didn't mean to that.
Jon (08:08.179)
Closures aren't sudden, they're decades in the making. That's something I have in Requiem for College. This was decades in the making. So it needs to be looked at also for the sort of doomsday scenario. If it has to happen, how can we do it in the most painless way possible?
Gary D Stocker (08:17.083)
Yeah.
Gary D Stocker (08:28.633)
And John, were quite gracious in Requiem. You both quoted me and cited my work many, many times in the book, and I'm touched, I'll be honest with you. But more importantly, my family has asked who is going to be playing my role in the movie version of Requiem for College?
Jon (08:48.271)
Okay, I've actually given a lot of thought to this probably more than I probably should have but it's been fun. So my choice honestly is Ed Harris. And I'll tell you why. Because of the film The Truman Show. Because of how much time you see him in the different shots staring up at screens. He's analyzing things. He's taking everything in trying to figure out what the next...
Kate Colbert (08:55.054)
you
Jon (09:16.403)
move is for this production company filming Jim Carrey's life. And I just sort of see you, I mean, I don't know what your home office looks like, Gary, but I see this kind of NORAD vision of all these screens and all this data. And you're just watching it all. And you're saying, okay, they're in trouble. they might make it. who you kidding? You're screwed. and just kind of knowing everything before it happens.
Gary D Stocker (09:30.479)
Hahaha!
Kate Colbert (09:41.664)
This is hilarious. This is so perfect.
Jon (09:46.546)
And a lot of times not able to say anything due to legal matters, but that's what I see anyway. Yeah.
Kate Colbert (09:52.779)
my God, that genre is so perfect.
Gary D Stocker (09:53.025)
You know, know, Kate, yeah, you know, Kate, this question for you real quickly is I liked higher education, NORAD. I'm thinking I'm going to steal that. What do you think? So, John, in Requiem, you really write that it is, the book is a love letter to St. Joseph College. It is a reckoning that its destroyers are due.
Jon (09:54.601)
thanks. Thank you.
Jon (10:03.699)
Please.
Kate Colbert (10:04.334)
love it.
Gary D Stocker (10:20.675)
and a warning to other small struggling colleges. So really it's a book for three audiences. Can you briefly characterize how the book addresses each of those three audiences?
Jon (10:33.673)
Well, I think the first thing is that when it first happened, meaning the suspension of operations, the end of St. Joseph's College as we knew it, there was, as I expressed in the book, a lot of anger, obviously. And what I came to find by researching the facts was the anger was in many ways misdirected. And there were a few...
people, the chairman of the board of trustees, the vice chairman, and a couple other players that were singled out as the bad guys, so to speak. And that simply wasn't true. This was a failure with many fathers. This was involving, I said earlier, people from over decades. So I wanted to sort of do justice to that and broaden the light.
phrase makes any sense rather than focusing a spotlight on just a couple people take a look at how many hands there were in this failure and this inability to see a lot of signs and symptoms until it was absolutely too late so and make people sort of realize that that there's plenty of blame to go around and that I could get this message out there the story out there
Gary D Stocker (11:35.217)
Hmm.
Jon (11:58.654)
to help other people, I hope, as I mentioned, all these other colleges and all the other people, all the individual lives who have been affected by the aftershocks of this trend, and make them feel seen and to draw attention to their plight and the students who we know from the data that about 50 % of the students who go through a college closure don't complete.
their degree. And that's an important point for us to take a look at that the whole reason higher ed exists. Those people aren't getting the care and attention that they need. And they are innocent victims in the poor planning or sometimes just the economics, natural economics of these closing institutions. that's, I just wanted to sort of raise a warning.
to show everyone what's happening, why it's happening, and for those who still have time to change course, hopefully. And at the same time, I have a section towards the end of the book that we can't lose sight of what college means and to try to
be keep that meaning, that core meaning, while at the same time adapt for the 21st century.
Gary D Stocker (13:23.459)
And Kate Colbert, you're the founder of Silver Tree Communications and you spend a lot of time interacting with higher education leaders. In your experience, how have John's books, really the Requiem, both editions, how John's books impacted their thinking?
Kate Colbert (13:43.331)
So here's the truth. John's book, especially the second edition of Requiem for a College, is a lot like Fifty Shades of Grey in that... Let me finish this. In that a lot of people are reading it, but very few people will admit that they can relate to it. So John's going to forgive me. You can tell I can already hear John like, John's coming out of his shoes. So John's going to forgive me this comparison because it's actually complimentary.
Gary D Stocker (13:50.769)
You
Jon (13:50.781)
Whoa, whoa, hey.
Gary D Stocker (14:01.488)
interesting.
Jon (14:01.641)
That's awesome. That's great.
Gary D Stocker (14:05.755)
He's laughing.
Kate Colbert (14:12.47)
Obviously, John is a brilliant writer and the Fifty Shades books were so horribly written that I was actually convinced that my master's degree in comparative literature was going to get rescinded if anybody found out I had read them. Right. So but in seriousness, the similarity is in the shame, the secrecy, the refusal to admit that what is happening all around you might have something to do with you personally. Right. So college closures aren't a dirty little secret. Right. They're an ugly
Gary D Stocker (14:21.889)
Hahaha!
Kate Colbert (14:41.78)
obvious trend that nobody likes to talk about and nobody likes to look at. And I had a university president recently tell me, quote, no president wants to close a college. And he's right. But the way in which he tried to then immediately shut down the conversation because it's uncomfortable to think about your beloved college closing. And when you're one of the leaders, the very possibility of closure is a reflection of your own leadership failures.
That showed me that he lacked the moral courage to confront difficult realities. And I think that's what's happening in leadership and higher ed right now. We've actually talked to some consultants who specialize in college closures. And they tell me that the mere presence of their company's name on an invoice that gets processed by a client university's business office can set off a big rumor mill among the staff and faculty about whether the sky is falling. Like, my gosh.
The board just hired that college closure expert. What does that mean? Right. And holy cow, the president is reading what Requiem for a College by Jonathan Nichols. Should we be worried? Are we shutting down? Is it the debt? Is it the deferred maintenance? Should we find new jobs now or do we risk going down with the ship? Right. And because college and university presidents, by and large, prefer smooth waters and blissfully ignorant
employees, they pretend, or at least publicly, that the college closure trend is not happening.
Gary D Stocker (15:49.009)
fascinating.
Kate Colbert (16:01.408)
or at the very least that while we're not like those other colleges, we're fine. And as I've heard you say, Gary, the common refrain is often, we're fine, we're fine, we're fine, we're closing. Right? And that's exactly what happened at St. Joseph's College for John. That's what happened at Cardinal Stritch University, my husband's alma mater. So this is a real challenge for the higher education industry right now, that there are books like John's and like mine.
Jon (16:13.161)
Yes.
Kate Colbert (16:28.984)
that shine bright lights on the risks and the future disasters in our industry, but the leaders capable of mitigating those problems, those risks and those future disasters in our industry, they're afraid to talk about it. But if you could show me a leadership team at a small private liberal arts college doing a book club on Requiem for a College, I will show you a school that's open-eyed enough, that's smart enough and humble enough.
Gary D Stocker (16:50.363)
Ha ha.
Kate Colbert (16:55.266)
that they might actually innovate their way into another 20 years in business. So it's my hope that conversations like the one that we're having right now will remind college and university leaders that they must be reading Requiem for a College and Heeding its Lessons. And by the way, as John's publisher, it's okay to read the Kindle edition where it's easier to hide it from your students and your colleagues. So if it's laying on your desk, nobody will know it's in your Kindle device.
Jon (17:17.321)
You
Jon (17:21.673)
you
Kate Colbert (17:21.934)
So that's fine by the Kindle Edition, but by God, please read it because you need to.
Gary D Stocker (17:28.081)
And I guess my next question, Kate, kind of ties in with that. Again, I'm looking for an opinion here. Does this book serve more as a historical reference as to what happened at St. Joseph's College in Indiana, in Mississauga, Indiana, or is it more of a warning for struggling colleges in general, specifically, but struggling colleges in general?
Kate Colbert (17:51.757)
You know, it's both, as they say, past is prologue. And I think there's a reason why people were clamoring for John to write this second edition, because they had heard the St. Joe story when he wrote the first edition of this book and when he first told it. And they knew they needed a roadmap for how to save their school. It's what John delivered this time, though, is really interesting, right? It's a sneak peek into what causes colleges to fail. And so the book is also, I think,
really heartbreaking and entertaining. It's a memoir that reads like fiction, right? Equal parts, historical, mystery, suspense, horror, dystopian, right? And what I hope for and what I strongly encourage is that everyone who works for private liberal arts college in the United States where the enrollment is less than 10,000 students, but especially for those of you who have fewer than 5,000 students, regardless of your role at that institution, I hope you will read Requiem for a College because if you can better understand what kills colleges,
Gary D Stocker (18:27.973)
Hahaha
Jon (18:28.841)
Wow.
Jon (18:41.777)
Mm-hmm.
Kate Colbert (18:49.612)
you stand a better chance of saving yours, or at least keeping it on life support long enough to find a new job for yourself and new college homes for your students. And by the way, it is perfectly fine to say, I don't think this book is about my institution or my subset of colleges, but I think I'd find it interesting to learn about those well-intentioned fools who killed all those other colleges. And by the way, you're going to learn a lot by reading it.
Gary D Stocker (19:10.973)
Hahaha
Gary D Stocker (19:16.923)
So John Nichols, an exceptional writer, and the more I speak with you, an exceptional speaker on higher education. What's next, sir? What's next for you?
Jon (19:28.389)
I have given that a lot of thought and I'm really not sure. I have been doing Requiem for a College for so long that I genuinely don't know what comes next. I have a few ideas. A lot of me for a long time was saying, I don't want to write about higher education again. I just really don't want to. I got to do something else. My brain's fried.
However, I do have a slight inspiration to work with a couple of colleagues on a book possibly about how to revitalize gen ed education to make them attractive at the college level, to make them different, meaningfully different. I love that tagline that Kate Colbert has at the bottom of her emails, be meaningfully different. And I think every college, every small college, any college anywhere should take that in
Gary D Stocker (20:06.737)
Interesting.
Kate Colbert (20:15.591)
You
Jon (20:25.267)
Considering how they're going to change for the 21st century. Yes, you need to set yourself apart and you need to be having an ear to the market and be fiscally minded, but how are you going to be meaningfully different? That's a great question. So I think if we can make general education meaningfully different from, so that students don't feel like they are repeating a few things that they did in high school, then
Gary D Stocker (20:52.101)
Yeah.
Jon (20:52.893)
then we can level them up and then maybe get them excited about classes that are compulsory. So I've got a few colleagues working on that with me. Maybe one day that'll be what I eventually get out next.
Gary D Stocker (21:06.097)
Very cool. Well, I will be one of the first ones to pre-order that sucker because you're such a talented writer. So one question for both of you and Kate, I'm to start with you and let's jump ahead to the summer of 2028. And Lord knows what's going to happen in this industry in intervening years. what, again, looking for an opinion, what do you expect, what impact you expect
this book to have in the next two to five years?
Jon (21:11.081)
Thanks.
Kate Colbert (21:21.454)
I'm
Jon (21:24.723)
Ahem.
Kate Colbert (21:33.529)
Yeah, I think it's going to be profound. And I think the reaction to the book is going to be sort of a slow, consistent burn, as it were. Post-secondary education enrollment rates are currently still lower than pre-pandemic levels. So for all the people who are writing articles about, higher education is just fine, enrollments are higher this year, but nobody wants to peel back the onion and talk about where we were in 2019.
the higher education is still struggling. And by the way, a strong labor market right now has fewer people feeling like they need to go to college. And so add to that the fact that we simply don't have enough 18 year olds to fill all those empty college classrooms, thanks to Gen Xers like me who didn't have kids. And it's really clear that
Jon (22:09.159)
Mm-hmm.
Kate Colbert (22:19.49)
than you, right? I know, like all this dinks, all the dual income, no kids kind of folks, right? You know, I mean, it's really clear that that small colleges with fragile financials and those that lack unique offerings, I did not pay John to sing the praises of my company's tagline, be meaningfully different. But thank you for that. But if you are not meaningfully different, if you do not have unique offerings, if there's not something about going to college A that is specifically
meaningfully different from going to college B, why will people choose it? so modern learners are going to these institutions that are not appealing to modern learners and what they're looking for, they're going to struggle. So I think college closures typically come in waves, right? We saw like a really horrible year about a year ago for closures. And then things get a little bit quieter and more waves are coming. So when Derek Newton, higher education contributor for Forbes, reviewed the book that I wrote,
with Joe Salustio in 2022. He said something powerful that I think actually applies equally to Requiem for College by Jonathan Nichols. He said, quote, The authors are likely right about one thing. Higher education is at or near an inflection point. It does feel as though something is going to break soon. And he was right. He also said, and I think this also applies to John's book as well, quote, A decade hence, we will either say it was all right there in this book.
or this is why we thought that way at the time, either way, we will be returning to it and probably more than once." I've read John's books multiple times, and I know you have too, Gary. When the next wave of college closures happens, presidents and boards will be quoting this book. Trust me on this. Higher education consultants are going to be teaching from it and hopefully paying John a licensing fee for that. Of course, John will get to
Jon (23:43.549)
and
Kate Colbert (24:10.478)
is going to get asked this ridiculous question. People are going to say to him, why didn't you warn us? And he's going to say, I did. So three years from now, those of you who have read this book will have a leg up on those of you who don't, and you have been warned.
Jon (24:17.174)
Thank
Gary D Stocker (24:27.149)
And John Nichols, you lived it. You lived the trauma of a college closing on short notice and you've written two books about it. Three years from now, what impact do you want the book to have on this industry, on this business?
Jon (24:43.973)
If nothing else, I hope it starts conversations. I hope it gets people talking about what's happening because while I did cover a number of factors that Kate mentioned in Requiem for College, did talk about, for example, the enrollment cliff that she just said, but there are other things we're dealing with right now that didn't, there just wasn't the space for artificial intelligence.
That is changing a lot. And let me tell you, as someone in the classroom, it's changing a lot. There are new federal policies, executive orders that are creating pressures that will, we don't know, you set the date of 2028 of what things will look like. So add all those into the whole.
a slew of things I mentioned in Requiem for a College that are bearing down on small colleges and there's even more to consider. by 2028, my gosh, I can't imagine. So yesterday was too late to start talking. So I hope it gets people started talking right now about what to do and how to look at the problem.
Kate Colbert (25:58.807)
Yeah.
Gary D Stocker (26:07.035)
So John, again, excellent writer for those of you listening to the podcast, take the guidance. Podcasts always promote things. This is a book that makes a difference. And it's not just about the industry. It's about somebody who went through what too many others have gone through since then, and almost certainly what too many others will go through in the coming months and years. By the book Requiem for a College, second edition, John Nichols is the author and has been my guest today. John, always a pleasure.
Jon (26:36.829)
Thank you so much, Gary.
Gary D Stocker (26:38.299)
Kate Colbert again, I would talk to you any day of the week because you are profound with all the knowledge that you can provide to this industry. So thanks to both of you. And my name is Gary Stocker with College Viability. This has been a very special episode of this week in College Viability. Thanks as always for making time to listen.