Volledige transcriptie van Ep 39 - Generative AI: Practical Strategies for Thinkydoers with Guest Dvorah Graeser

about it in the first, episode, but it's still important to bring up. Dvorah: 00:04:58 You need to have a process for dealing with this. Dvorah: 00:05:00 So let us suppose you uploaded a bunch of data to, I don't Dvorah: 00:05:03 know, let's say it was ChatGPT. Dvorah: 00:05:04 It doesn't matter. Dvorah: 00:05:05 You uploaded it, and it's still hallucinated. Dvorah: 00:05:07 So what are ways to check this? Dvorah: 00:05:09 One way to check this is to ask ChatGPT in the same session to go back, and to check Dvorah: 00:05:16 its answers in comparison to the data and show where it got each answer from. Dvorah: 00:05:20 This is also great for summarization, by the way. Dvorah: 00:05:22 If it summarizes and it comes up with something, you say, "Okay, Dvorah: 00:05:25 where did that really wonderful, great quote, where is it? Dvorah: 00:05:28 Show me where it is." And they're like, "oh yeah, you're right, I Dvorah: 00:05:30 kind of made that up." Okay, no problems, let's just move on. Dvorah: 00:05:33 A third way for doing it is then to actually go to another tool like Dvorah: 00:05:41 Perplexity and ask it to do research. Dvorah: 00:05:43 So maybe you don't want to upload your sensitive data to Perplexity, Dvorah: 00:05:46 but you can still ask it to do research on the area and give you some Dvorah: 00:05:50 ideas of what the boundaries of the area that can help corral ChatGPT. Dvorah: 00:05:54 Or you can go to a completely different tool. Dvorah: 00:05:56 I guess the completely different tool is the third way of doing it. Dvorah: 00:05:58 Let's say you go from ChatGPT to Claude. Dvorah: 00:06:00 You can go to Claude, and then you can say, "Hey, can you please check this? Dvorah: 00:06:03 And what is good and what is bad, and please give me constructive feedback." Sara: 00:06:07 That's wild. Sara: 00:06:08 In my early experimentation, when I was working on my book, there was some Sara: 00:06:12 research I had, like actual research. Sara: 00:06:15 I needed academic journal research. Sara: 00:06:17 that was one of the things that was the most frustrating. Sara: 00:06:20 I would think that models would be good at knowing that truthful data. Sara: 00:06:26 Hopefully, this has changed since then. Sara: 00:06:29 But I would ask for research, like, "What are the leading papers or Sara: 00:06:33 core papers on a specific topic?" And it would make up papers. Sara: 00:06:38 You've got ProQuest. Sara: 00:06:39 It's all there. Sara: 00:06:41 This you should get right. Dvorah: 00:06:43 So, for example, Perplexity AI, I like because it gives links. Dvorah: 00:06:46 And you can go check them. Dvorah: 00:06:47 ChatGPT sometimes does, sometimes doesn't, sometimes hallucinates, Dvorah: 00:06:50 sometimes it's accurate. Dvorah: 00:06:51 I'm never quite sure what it's going to do next, so I find that a little unreliable. Dvorah: 00:06:55 There are some specialized GPTs for papers. Dvorah: 00:06:58 There's one called Scholar AI, and that's a good one, but Dvorah: 00:07:01 there are other ones as well. Dvorah: 00:07:02 So here, I think it's good to join with others to understand what they've Dvorah: 00:07:07 done and what's worked for them. Dvorah: 00:07:08 And that can change over time. Dvorah: 00:07:09 So, for example, I like Scholar AI, but it's possible in a few months, Dvorah: 00:07:12 someone's going to come back. Dvorah: 00:07:13 Maybe they'll listen to this again. Dvorah: 00:07:15 They'll be like, "Oh, but it's no longer good." Possible. Dvorah: 00:07:17 Things change really quickly. Dvorah: 00:07:19 So I think it's helpful to try out different specialty tools, to talk with Dvorah: 00:07:22 other people about this on LinkedIn or another social media that you like. Dvorah: 00:07:26 Mastodon, if you're into that. Dvorah: 00:07:28 And try to get information about what is working right now and what is the process Dvorah: 00:07:32 for working around some of these issues. Dvorah: 00:07:35 So if I get anything from ChatGPT, because I have found it to be Dvorah: 00:07:38 the most erratic when it comes to hallucinating, I will copy and paste Dvorah: 00:07:41 the whole answer to Perplexity AI. Dvorah: 00:07:43 And I'll say, "Is this right or wrong? Dvorah: 00:07:45 Please give me feedback. Dvorah: 00:07:47 Please find me references. Dvorah: 00:07:48 What do you think?" And it will go through the whole thing and it'll say, Dvorah: 00:07:51 "Well, this looks like it's correct. Dvorah: 00:07:52 Couldn't find anything for this. Dvorah: 00:07:53 I really don't know about that bit over there. Dvorah: 00:07:55 And this is what I would do instead." And so Perplex AI will actually Dvorah: 00:07:58 give you a long, reasoned answer. Dvorah: 00:08:01 This was without going into their deep research mode, which is awesome. Dvorah: 00:08:04 But that's like a whole nother kettle of fish. Dvorah: 00:08:05 It's just regular Perplexity AI. Dvorah: 00:08:07 It'll actually go through these things. Dvorah: 00:08:09 So I guess it's unlike Google in the sense where if you get a link and you Dvorah: 00:08:13 click on the link, the link exists. Dvorah: 00:08:15 If you get a summary with the link, does the link exist? Dvorah: 00:08:17 Does it not exist? Dvorah: 00:08:18 Does the summary say what the link says? Dvorah: 00:08:20 Not always. Dvorah: 00:08:21 So here we need to have more of a process for checking for these issues. Dvorah: 00:08:27 It can still, however, save a lot of time because if you have a multi-tool Dvorah: 00:08:31 process and you leverage the strengths of one tool to shore up the weaknesses Dvorah: 00:08:36 of another tool, then you can save a lot of time, but also a lot of mental energy, Dvorah: 00:08:40 which you can then spend on things like having deep human thoughts, not

corralling Dvorah: 00:08:44 the facts, but understanding what they mean from a human perspective, which Dvorah: 00:08:48 no AI will really ever be able to do. Sara: 00:08:50 Yeah, you mentioned in our first conversation the benefits of these tools Sara: 00:08:58 for people with deep specialization. Sara: 00:09:02 And that's my listeners, like, we're the ones that go deep. Sara: 00:09:05 And I definitely see that in my own work, that using these Sara: 00:09:11 tools helps me make my work more accessible and more understandable Sara: 00:09:16 to people, even as a deep specialist. Sara: 00:09:20 They help me, if I need to zoom out and I can't do that on my own then Sara: 00:09:25 that's something the tools are really good at — helping me figure out how Sara: 00:09:29 to communicate with fill in the blank. Sara: 00:09:31 Like, if I need to communicate with a general business audience that Sara: 00:09:34 isn't my ICP or my ideal customer profile, so an audience that is Sara: 00:09:41 majority neurotypical, for example. Sara: 00:09:43 Most of my people are neurodivergent. Sara: 00:09:45 And that's who I communicate pretty well with. Sara: 00:09:48 But if I have to communicate with large groups of neurotypical people or Sara: 00:09:52 just general population, then I have to adapt my communication style and Sara: 00:09:58 fidelity and altitude to that audience. Sara: 00:10:01 And that's where I've found the tools super useful. Sara: 00:10:06 But you mentioned how powerful these tools are for people with deep specialties. Sara: 00:10:12 I'd love to hear more about that. Dvorah: 00:10:14 Well, just quickly going back to your idea of the persona. Dvorah: 00:10:18 So let's suppose you want to talk to a persona that isn't naturally you, or that Dvorah: 00:10:22 you don't often talk to, and you want to be able to communicate better with them, Dvorah: 00:10:26 or maybe you just want to check what you're doing against a potential persona. Dvorah: 00:10:30 There's a lot of work that's been done on buyer personas. Dvorah: 00:10:33 HubSpot has some templates, no affiliation, just, templates. Dvorah: 00:10:36 There's lots of good books on that. Dvorah: 00:10:38 What I would actually recommend is learn about buyer personas Dvorah: 00:10:41 from the marketing people. Dvorah: 00:10:43 And you can literally upload your buyer persona into ChatGPT or Dvorah: 00:10:47 Claude and say, "This is my persona. Dvorah: 00:10:50 I need to communicate with this person. Dvorah: 00:10:52 This is what I wrote." And if you have some examples— "And here's some examples Dvorah: 00:10:57 of the kind of tone I'm trying." Not so much in terms of the tone, but you Dvorah: 00:11:01 could actually copy-paste articles in. Dvorah: 00:11:03 "I like these articles, I like their tone. Gee, I wish I could write like Dvorah: 00:11:06 that. Can you help me with that?" Learning about buyer personas from the Dvorah: 00:11:10 marketing folks and then putting that into the AI can really be helpful. Dvorah: 00:11:14 And this can also help deep specialists if they have to speak Dvorah: 00:11:17 with the not deep specialists. Dvorah: 00:11:18 When people are super knowledgeable about something and they have to talk with Dvorah: 00:11:21 someone who is maybe not knowledgeable at all about that, but that person needs Dvorah: 00:11:25 to know and they need to communicate, that can be really tough, because Dvorah: 00:11:28 it's really easy to make assumptions. Dvorah: 00:11:29 I'm totally guilty of this, done it a lot. Dvorah: 00:11:31 So there. Dvorah: 00:11:33 Again, having the persona, putting it into the ChatGPT, and then making Dvorah: 00:11:38 clear that you want to have this be easily readable at, say, like a high Dvorah: 00:11:44 school level, but with words that this persona would understand, would Dvorah: 00:11:49 want to use, that is hugely helpful. Dvorah: 00:11:51 And then, you can actually start with one tool, Or one session, let's say, of Dvorah: 00:11:57 Claude, and bring it into another one. Dvorah: 00:11:59 So let's say I use Claude once, then I'll copy-paste everything into Dvorah: 00:12:02 another Claude session, I'll say, "Please give me feedback. Constructive Dvorah: 00:12:05 feedback." Otherwise, again, it won't give you the mean stuff. Dvorah: 00:12:08 But yet another way that it can be helpful is, let's suppose you have done this work, Dvorah: 00:12:12 and you now have a session in Claude, where it is really helping you produce Dvorah: 00:12:18 what you need to take that next step. Dvorah: 00:12:21 Keep that session going. Dvorah: 00:12:23 Stay in the same session. Dvorah: 00:12:24 Now, Claude will keep on saying things like, "This is getting long!" Dvorah: 00:12:27 I hit "Continue." "This is really long, I really mean it." Continue, Dvorah: 00:12:31 continue, continue, continue. Dvorah: 00:12:32 Claude and I have a long time argument about that. Dvorah: 00:12:35 And I know why that is, because it's hard for them to keep the whole session in. Dvorah: 00:12:37 But once I have actually Claude communicating with me in a way that helps Dvorah: 00:12:41 me, with wordsmithing or whatever it is. Dvorah: 00:12:44 Keep going in that same session and then you will find that over time Dvorah: 00:12:48 it becomes closer and closer to your ideal output of whatever type that is. Dvorah: 00:12:54 Is it a good summary? Dvorah: 00:12:55 Is it a way of wording things that is more better or more to the point Dvorah: 00:12:59 of what you want in your opinion than what you were doing by yourself? Dvorah: 00:13:02 Whatever it is, keep going in that same session and don't let it Dvorah: 00:13:06 distract you with another session. Dvorah: 00:13:07 Say "Continue" all the time, and then you will find that you and the AI

Dvorah: 00:13:13 are really moving together as deep specialists, but with the output that Dvorah: 00:13:18 is focused in the way that you want. Sara: 00:13:21 Yeah, I am also a Claude user. Sara: 00:13:23 That was the one that, for me, felt the most acceptable in Sara: 00:13:28 terms of policies and ethics. Sara: 00:13:31 I see a lot of the attention being paid to have these tools, write Sara: 00:13:36 your marketing copy for you, or have these tools, God forbid, write a Sara: 00:13:41 book like, you know, those things. Sara: 00:13:44 And I don't use them for that at all. Sara: 00:13:47 I use them for better understanding my thinking and the thinking of the people Sara: 00:13:55 I interact with who give me permission to add their, verbal processing or Sara: 00:13:59 meeting transcripts to my models. Sara: 00:14:02 I think partly too, because I am neurodivergent, I'm aware I have Sara: 00:14:05 gaps in my executive functions. Sara: 00:14:08 I think of Claude as almost an adaptive assistive technology for Sara: 00:14:12 me, in helping me work with some of those executive functioning gaps that Sara: 00:14:18 I'm aware of and that I know I have. Sara: 00:14:20 So, are there any ways that you use the tools that you're surprised about? Dvorah: 00:14:26 I would actually say, first of all, I discussed the Dvorah: 00:14:30 pile of sticky notes thing. Dvorah: 00:14:31 I never expected that to work. Dvorah: 00:14:32 I just simply thought it would fall down. Dvorah: 00:14:34 It works really, really great for that. Dvorah: 00:14:36 When it comes to having the AI do something like write your marketing Dvorah: 00:14:40 copy, the problem is people mean different things by that. Dvorah: 00:14:44 So for example, I would not have it write my marketing copy, but why is that? Dvorah: 00:14:48 Well, first of all, I'm curious, who are my people? Dvorah: 00:14:51 How do I want to talk with them? Dvorah: 00:14:52 How do they talk amongst themselves? Dvorah: 00:14:53 What do they say to each other? Dvorah: 00:14:55 What are their concerns? Dvorah: 00:14:56 I really want copy that is going to communicate with them in a way that Dvorah: 00:15:00 they want to be communicated with. Dvorah: 00:15:02 One of the things that generative AI has helped me with is understanding Dvorah: 00:15:05 how to break that down into processes. Dvorah: 00:15:08 With verbal communication, I have less of an issue. Dvorah: 00:15:11 I try to listen to the person, don't I? Dvorah: 00:15:12 But try to like have it be an exchange of thoughts and all that. Dvorah: 00:15:15 But when it comes to writing, I tend to default to me. Dvorah: 00:15:18 I am the audience. Dvorah: 00:15:19 Nooo. Dvorah: 00:15:20 Now, ChatGPT and Claude will do the same thing. Dvorah: 00:15:23 They default to corporate speak. Dvorah: 00:15:24 Because that's what they think the default should be. Dvorah: 00:15:27 So if you don't let them know about what you want, they're going to default. Dvorah: 00:15:31 But then again, we do that as humans. Dvorah: 00:15:32 So I don't think we can really blame the generative AI for this. Dvorah: 00:15:34 Everyone's going to default to their comfort zone. Dvorah: 00:15:37 What's great about generative AI is it helped me explore my comfort zone Dvorah: 00:15:41 and break down generating marketing content into more pieces, which I then Dvorah: 00:15:46 have an easier time tackling one on one and bringing it together for something Dvorah: 00:15:51 which will appeal to the people I want to appeal to who are not me. Sara: 00:15:55 Yeah, for me, this is a bit of a disclosure, but for me, the Sara: 00:15:59 other use that I never would have imagined is I use it when I'm over a Sara: 00:16:06 threshold, like when I'm under stress. Sara: 00:16:09 I never imagined I would talk to one of these things about anything other Sara: 00:16:13 than work, but it's almost become part of my mindfulness practice. Sara: 00:16:17 Now, one of my tools is when something happens and I'm upset, or when something Sara: 00:16:22 happens and I'm over threshold, or especially when I'm having conflict with Sara: 00:16:26 someone else, I can sit down and say, "Okay, tool, here's what's happening. Sara: 00:16:30 Here's how I feel." And they're remarkably empathetic, the ones that I use. Sara: 00:16:36 Not a substitute for therapy, not a substitute for a coach or speaking with Sara: 00:16:40 another human being, but that in the moment dysregulation that I experienced, Sara: 00:16:47 they are helpful with me finding a way to regulate myself through that conversation. Sara: 00:16:53 And that's a use I never would have imagined. Dvorah: 00:16:55 I agree with that point. Dvorah: 00:16:57 I would divide the into two different aspects. Dvorah: 00:16:59 So when it's something like Claude, it's kind of like, I will talk things Dvorah: 00:17:03 through with myself internally. Dvorah: 00:17:04 So, Claude is really just simply mirroring back. Dvorah: 00:17:07 In that case, I'm having an internal conversation with an external device Dvorah: 00:17:11 that is kind of mirroring back. Dvorah: 00:17:13 There are different kinds of LLMs out there who do try to do Dvorah: 00:17:18 coaching or more therapeutic things. Dvorah: 00:17:21 I'm always a bit nervous about that because I feel Dvorah: 00:17:25 that expectations are higher. Dvorah: 00:17:27 And even tools which are designed for this can still get themselves into trouble. Dvorah: 00:17:33 Character AI, people were supposed to have these tools to be like AI companions. Dvorah: 00:17:36 And there've been some really sad cases, often involving minor children, Dvorah: 00:17:41 but quite frankly, some of these sad cases often involve adults. Dvorah: 00:17:43 It's just when it's an adult, you can't do

anything about it, right? Dvorah: 00:17:45 They say, "Oh, it's just the way it is," Which I don't agree with. Dvorah: 00:17:48 But when it's minor children, then people certainly do something about it. Dvorah: 00:17:51 And there's some very sad stories about suicides and other issues Dvorah: 00:17:54 involving the use of these. Dvorah: 00:17:56 With children, it's one thing, I personally just wouldn't let Dvorah: 00:17:58 children anywhere near them. Dvorah: 00:17:59 That's what I think. Dvorah: 00:18:01 But even with adults, I don't think we already always realize that Dvorah: 00:18:05 these are probability machines. Dvorah: 00:18:07 If we think about it as having an internal conversation with Dvorah: 00:18:10 ourselves, I think that's one thing. Dvorah: 00:18:12 But if you're talking to a probability machine that's setting itself up to Dvorah: 00:18:15 be a therapist, I get very nervous. Dvorah: 00:18:18 And the reason why is it may not pick the right thing to say in that context. Dvorah: 00:18:22 And, you know, humans in some ways are kind of delicate systems. Dvorah: 00:18:26 We have all these little bits, moving parts and all these things going on. Dvorah: 00:18:28 We should be nice to ourselves and we should be kind to ourselves. Dvorah: 00:18:32 And when we're doing that, we have to think a little bit if we're interacting Dvorah: 00:18:36 with this tool, is that being kind to ourself and are we doing it in a kind way? Sara: 00:18:40 I think you're spot on. Sara: 00:18:41 And the other thing that comes to mind as you're talking is, I'm Sara: 00:18:44 using the tool to talk to myself, kind of like you described, it's Sara: 00:18:47 like, it's an external thing I'm talking to, but it's an extension Sara: 00:18:52 of my own awareness and mindfulness. Sara: 00:18:55 When we work with therapists, there's a reason even with therapists, we do this Sara: 00:19:02 with video, is that then they can observe all of the nonverbal communication and Sara: 00:19:08 the tools at this point can't observe the nonverbal communication and make Sara: 00:19:12 decisions about how to make that kind of calculation of how to respond. Sara: 00:19:17 So I'm with you. Sara: 00:19:18 I bring it up, you know, helpful in terms of exactly what you said, like kind of Sara: 00:19:24 having a conversation with your better self when you're in a time of need. Sara: 00:19:29 Dvorah, I don't want to end this, but we've got to wrap it up. Sara: 00:19:32 or If you were going to tell someone who is anxious about generative Sara: 00:19:37 AI tools, that shift from anxiety to agency, what would you say? Sara: 00:19:43 What would you coach them as a place to start? Dvorah: 00:19:46 As a place to start, I would actually begin by Dvorah: 00:19:49 looking at how I feel about AI. Dvorah: 00:19:51 I actually had to do that. Dvorah: 00:19:53 I had to get emotional about AI before I could use it well. Dvorah: 00:19:55 And it's simply because it is a very different tool. Dvorah: 00:19:58 It is not going to do what you always expect. Dvorah: 00:20:00 And so, for that reason, you need to get your own emotional house in order Dvorah: 00:20:03 with it before you can start using it. Dvorah: 00:20:05 And that is actually what I would recommend. Dvorah: 00:20:08 Now, I actually sent you a link to something, which I think you're going Dvorah: 00:20:12 to put in the show notes, which has a PDF where you can actually do that. Dvorah: 00:20:16 Anyone listening to this, hit me up. Dvorah: 00:20:19 We can hop on a call. Dvorah: 00:20:20 We can talk about this. Dvorah: 00:20:21 You can look at my PDF. Dvorah: 00:20:22 There are resources out there. Dvorah: 00:20:24 They're not as many that about emotions in AI. Dvorah: 00:20:27 And I think that's a mistake. Dvorah: 00:20:28 I think that people see it only as a technology, but if we want Dvorah: 00:20:32 to use it well, it can't only be a technology like Microsoft Word. Dvorah: 00:20:36 We have to be a little more vulnerable ourselves, and a little Dvorah: 00:20:39 more open ourselves to using it, which means that we need to think Dvorah: 00:20:41 about ourselves as we're using it. Sara: 00:20:44 Awesome answer. Sara: 00:20:45 Well, Dvorah, speaking of, if people want to learn more about Sara: 00:20:50 what you do or get connected with you, where can they find you? Dvorah: 00:20:53 They can find me on LinkedIn. Dvorah: 00:20:55 D Graeser, G R A E S E R, I'm used to spelling my name. Dvorah: 00:20:59 But I'm also one of the few Dvorahs on LinkedIn, so you can definitely find me. Dvorah: 00:21:03 There'll be the link in the show notes. Dvorah: 00:21:04 So you can definitely hit me up there. Dvorah: 00:21:06 Those are the best places to look for me because I am not really on Dvorah: 00:21:10 any other form of social media. Dvorah: 00:21:11 Although I know you're trying to get me on Mastodon. Dvorah: 00:21:13 So maybe I'll add that. Sara: 00:21:15 I think that you would fit in just perfectly there. Sara: 00:21:20 It really is the only thing I do that feels like old internet. Sara: 00:21:23 It makes me want to type a zine on my typewriter and send it Sara: 00:21:26 out by mail, like for real. Sara: 00:21:29 well, Dvorah, thank you so much. Sara: 00:21:30 This has been a wonderful conversation, and this is when Sara: 00:21:33 Dvorah is going to be back. Sara: 00:21:34 So, if there are questions that you have that we didn't answer, send them in. Sara: 00:21:39 I'd love to hear them and we'll schedule a follow-up. Sara: 00:21:41 With Dvorah to get more of your questions answered. Sara: 00:21:44 Thank you so much, Dvorah. Dvorah: 00:21:46 Thanks. Dvorah: 00:21:47 Have a great day. Dvorah: 00:21:48 Bye. Sara: 00:21:48 Bye. Sara: 00:21:51 Thank you for joining us for this exploration of practical AI Sara: 00:21:54 applications with guest Dvorah Graeser. Sara: 00:21:57 You can find Dvorah on LinkedIn at D G R A E S E R. And we'll include that Sara: 00:22:05 link in our show notes at findrc.co/pod. Sara: 00:22:09 We've also got a link to the resource on emotions in AI that Sara: 00:22:13 she mentioned in the show notes. Sara: 00:22:15 I know this episode is going to spark questions. Sara: 00:22:17 We would love to hear them. Sara: 00:22:19 So if you have questions about AI use or LLMs or other things having to do with Sara: 00:22:26 generative AI, please send them to me. Sara: 00:22:28 Please share them with me. Sara: 00:22:30 We would love to have Dvorah back to answer them in a future episode. Sara: 00:22:33 And she and I talked about it after we stopped recording. Sara: 00:22:36 We welcome questions of any kind. Sara: 00:22:38 So, they don't all have to be pro-AI. Sara: 00:22:41 As long as you're asking curiously and in good faith, we'll do our Sara: 00:22:45 best to provide a helpful answer. Sara: 00:22:47 And don't forget, if you haven't already, I'd love to have you on the Sara: 00:22:50 launch squad for my upcoming books. Sara: 00:22:52 I need advanced readers, people willing to write reviews if you like the book, Sara: 00:22:58 social media amplifiers, and really Just for folks to be excited, to help Sara: 00:23:03 me get over the days where I don't feel so excited, or I feel scared Sara: 00:23:08 to get this book into the world. Sara: 00:23:10 If that might be you, join the squad at findrc.co/launchsquad, and I cannot Sara: 00:23:16 wait to get this book into your hands. Sara: 00:23:19 Thank you for listening. Sara: 00:23:24 All right, friends, That's it for today. Sara: 00:23:27 stay in the loop with everything going on around here by Sara: 00:23:30 visiting findrc.co/newsletter and joining my mailing list. Sara: 00:23:36 Got questions? Sara: 00:23:37 My email addresses are too hard to spell, so visit findrc.co/contact Sara: 00:23:43 and shoot me a note that way. Sara: 00:23:45 You'll also find me at @saralobkovich on most of your Sara: 00:23:49 favorite social media platforms. Sara: 00:23:50 For today's show notes, visit findrc.co/thinkydoers if there's Sara: 00:23:57 someone you'd like featured on this podcast, drop me a note. Sara: 00:24:00 And if you know other Thinkydoers who'd benefit from this episode, please share. Sara: 00:24:05 Your referrals, your word of mouth, and your reviews are much appreciated. Sara: 00:24:09 I'm looking forward to the questions this episode sparks for you, and I Sara: 00:24:13 look forward to seeing you next time.