Volledige transcriptie van Making & Breaking Points with Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti

00:04:11.159 --> 00:04:12.979 I think that's what you're picking up on. And certainly 72 00:04:13.039 --> 00:04:16.220 on the Iran war, on changing the relationship with Israel, 73 00:04:17.060 --> 00:04:19.790 on economic issues, there is a lot of overlap there. 74 00:04:20.149 --> 00:04:22.649 I think the thing you said, Crystal, that resonates the 75 00:04:22.689 --> 00:04:26.550 most with me is best faith, good faith. I think, 76 00:04:26.689 --> 00:04:29.290 and Sagar, maybe that's what I'm thinking of. It might 77 00:04:29.329 --> 00:04:32.060 not be a convergence of opinion. It's that it's a 78 00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:34.199 good faith discussion. Yeah. 79 00:04:34.259 --> 00:04:36.000 I mean, one of the things that we both really 80 00:04:36.040 --> 00:04:38.660 built our show around is like a rejection of cable 81 00:04:38.699 --> 00:04:41.920 news and just not only the format, but the very 82 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:44.379 way in which they want to increase division. And we 83 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:47.600 have plenty of division, which we showcase very openly and honestly, 84 00:04:47.639 --> 00:04:49.459 as you just pointed out, Crystal, about our woke one. 85 00:04:49.860 --> 00:04:52.680 point no debate. But in it, there was a good faith. 86 00:04:52.699 --> 00:04:54.379 I mean, Crystal heard me out and I heard her 87 00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:57.100 out and we gave our counterpoints and there was no 88 00:04:57.259 --> 00:05:00.339 like yelling or screaming at each other. I also whenever 89 00:05:00.360 --> 00:05:03.160 you're talking about convergence, I think that one of the 90 00:05:03.199 --> 00:05:07.110 things that really comes with respect is understanding. And so 91 00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:08.819 we've been doing this, you know, not just this show, 92 00:05:08.850 --> 00:05:10.829 but our previous iteration of the show for almost like 93 00:05:10.889 --> 00:05:11.699 seven or eight years now. 94 00:05:12.170 --> 00:05:14.540 What was that one, the rising? What was the first one? 95 00:05:14.579 --> 00:05:15.339 It was rising. 96 00:05:15.379 --> 00:05:16.180 That's it, rising, yeah. 97 00:05:16.259 --> 00:05:18.379 And one of the things that comes with that is 98 00:05:18.399 --> 00:05:21.899 you come to understand very deeply where other people are 99 00:05:21.939 --> 00:05:25.439 coming from. And it's really useful because it helps not 100 00:05:25.490 --> 00:05:28.050 only in your interactions politically, but like even in your 101 00:05:28.209 --> 00:05:30.970 everyday life. Like when you hear somebody say something, you 102 00:05:30.990 --> 00:05:33.009 can understand where previously it would have been like, what 103 00:05:33.050 --> 00:05:36.129 an idiot. You're like, okay, I see how you got 104 00:05:36.209 --> 00:05:39.240 to that conclusion because of the information you took in 105 00:05:39.300 --> 00:05:42.470 or your worldview is just fundamentally really different. my worldview 106 00:05:42.550 --> 00:05:44.670 and

there's a level of acceptance with that one of 107 00:05:44.689 --> 00:05:46.990 the best compliments that we both get you know if 108 00:05:47.029 --> 00:05:49.250 we're in public or something is like you really help 109 00:05:49.269 --> 00:05:51.750 my relationship with my dad you know you just help 110 00:05:51.769 --> 00:05:55.209 me understand like where my dad was coming from whenever 111 00:05:55.250 --> 00:05:57.569 he would rant about x y and z like i 112 00:05:57.680 --> 00:05:59.920 understood why and then or vice versa you know like 113 00:05:59.939 --> 00:06:02.100 help my relationship with my kid and like my kids 114 00:06:02.139 --> 00:06:04.560 really into dsa and like i don't understand you know 115 00:06:04.579 --> 00:06:06.459 what that is but when i hear crystal talk about 116 00:06:06.519 --> 00:06:09.040 it it's like okay like i i kind of start 117 00:06:09.079 --> 00:06:12.079 to make sense to me and so In that way, 118 00:06:12.459 --> 00:06:14.240 it's really edifying and part of the reason why I 119 00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:15.399 love doing the show. 120 00:06:15.540 --> 00:06:17.740 As you've come together, and now it's been, as you said, 121 00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:22.600 seven years, does it help you also identify the bad 122 00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:30.019 faith actors in our political and media hellscape? Has there 123 00:06:30.060 --> 00:06:33.540 been a way for you to discern, oh, these people 124 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:37.180 are performative, these people are bad faith, and do you 125 00:06:38.129 --> 00:06:40.550 Do you avoid that now, avoid those folks, or do 126 00:06:40.610 --> 00:06:42.129 you expose? Both. 127 00:06:42.300 --> 00:06:42.810 It's a mix. 128 00:06:42.889 --> 00:06:43.199 Yeah. 129 00:06:43.300 --> 00:06:45.939 I mean, definitely. That is certainly the case. And look, 130 00:06:46.139 --> 00:06:49.819 I have become less tolerant of a lot of pundits 131 00:06:49.860 --> 00:06:53.259 on the right. There are very few who are actually 132 00:06:53.300 --> 00:06:54.759 on the right that I would work with at this 133 00:06:54.819 --> 00:06:56.699 point because I just think there's so much lies and 134 00:06:56.750 --> 00:06:59.670 propaganda there that to deal with that on a daily 135 00:06:59.730 --> 00:07:03.509 basis would not be productive. If you're doing a debate... 136 00:07:03.639 --> 00:07:05.560 and you're having an engagement, you're trying to expose, that's 137 00:07:05.750 --> 00:07:08.870 one thing. But to work together with someone every day, 138 00:07:08.949 --> 00:07:12.870 as you know, is an entirely different relationship. So for example, 139 00:07:13.089 --> 00:07:15.069 in the wake of your John Fetterman interview, I don't 140 00:07:15.089 --> 00:07:16.709 think that is someone I could work with every day. 141 00:07:16.730 --> 00:07:19.699 I'm not sure John Fetterman is working with John Fetterman 142 00:07:19.740 --> 00:07:20.120 every day. 143 00:07:20.180 --> 00:07:22.560 Just bad faith arguments, a lack of an ability to 144 00:07:22.620 --> 00:07:25.899 really even grapple with the questions that you're asking, et cetera. 145 00:07:25.959 --> 00:07:28.480 But what has made it work with Sagar is We've 146 00:07:28.519 --> 00:07:33.089 had some very heated debates, very hot and over issues 147 00:07:33.129 --> 00:07:35.529 that we both care a lot about and I think 148 00:07:35.569 --> 00:07:39.050 are very consequential. What makes it work over the long 149 00:07:39.089 --> 00:07:42.290 term is that we're both capable of saying, you know what, 150 00:07:42.310 --> 00:07:43.610 I got it wrong there. You were right. 151 00:07:43.649 --> 00:07:44.269 You had a point. 152 00:07:44.689 --> 00:07:46.509 And I think over the long term, that's part of 153 00:07:46.550 --> 00:07:48.620 what has built the trust that enables it. 154 00:07:48.949 --> 00:07:52.149 I totally agree. And like, you know, vice versa, I think, 155 00:07:52.170 --> 00:07:53.680 you know, especially at the height of a lot of 156 00:07:54.100 --> 00:07:57.730 Pretty crazy moments, 2020 and others. There are not a 157 00:07:57.750 --> 00:08:00.269 lot of people I think who I could have stomached. 158 00:08:00.529 --> 00:08:02.250 But yeah, I mean, as Crystal said, it can get 159 00:08:02.290 --> 00:08:04.949 hot and that's fine. I actually think it's healthy. It's normal. 160 00:08:05.350 --> 00:08:07.930 It's reflective of literally the nature of the country. We're 161 00:08:07.949 --> 00:08:10.490 literally living through one of the most tumultuous times, I think, 162 00:08:10.589 --> 00:08:12.649 in modern American history. It's probably akin to the 1960s. 163 00:08:13.769 --> 00:08:15.149 in a lot of different ways. Or actually, maybe the 164 00:08:15.189 --> 00:08:16.949 70s is a better comparison. 165 00:08:17.569 --> 00:08:19.670 Here's what's sad. I think I'm the only one who's 166 00:08:19.730 --> 00:08:22.350 lived through both of those. So if you have any questions. 167 00:08:22.610 --> 00:08:24.100 That's true. I've only read about it, John. 168 00:08:24.569 --> 00:08:27.540 I am happy. I'm happy to tell you about it. Right. 169 00:08:27.560 --> 00:08:29.639 But I mean, John, since you were there, you know 170 00:08:29.800 --> 00:08:33.779 that that was a moment of very actually limited public debate. 171 00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:36.179 And in my opinion, one of the reasons why things 172 00:08:36.220 --> 00:08:39.470 went really wrong was because of the convergence of the 173 00:08:39.500 --> 00:08:42.090 mass media era. Like for me, this is honestly surreal 174 00:08:42.129 --> 00:08:44.529 to be able to talk to you because you were 175 00:08:44.590 --> 00:08:49.389 so instrumental for me as a kid who is growing 176 00:08:49.490 --> 00:08:53.309 up in Bush country, hearing these lies about the Iraq war. 177 00:08:53.690 --> 00:08:56.809 There is only one place that I could go to, 178 00:08:57.169 --> 00:09:00.509 to expose like this level of

hysteria and nonsense, which 179 00:09:00.549 --> 00:09:03.870 I just hear propagated All day long on all three 180 00:09:04.230 --> 00:09:06.330 cable networks. And that was at a time of total 181 00:09:06.389 --> 00:09:08.669 ubiquity in mass media, part of the reason that we 182 00:09:08.710 --> 00:09:10.730 got into the war that we did. And it went 183 00:09:10.769 --> 00:09:13.230 as long as we did. I think that the Iran 184 00:09:13.250 --> 00:09:15.700 war is, look, it's a disaster, but it is a 185 00:09:15.750 --> 00:09:19.120 hopeful story in that the poll numbers went south immediately. 186 00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:21.879 A huge amount of the American public is getting their 187 00:09:21.919 --> 00:09:25.379 information back. from sources or, you know, different from sources 188 00:09:25.419 --> 00:09:28.259 like us, many others who are out there who are 189 00:09:28.379 --> 00:09:31.059 able to expose the absolute holes in all of the 190 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:33.919 propaganda that the Pentagon or the White House is able 191 00:09:33.960 --> 00:09:36.259 to put out. And so, look, it's a disaster that 192 00:09:36.279 --> 00:09:38.559 we're in this, but it's actually a hopeful story that 193 00:09:38.600 --> 00:09:41.500 the public turned on it almost immediately. And so that 194 00:09:41.519 --> 00:09:43.610 we didn't have that edifice to prop it up that 195 00:09:43.620 --> 00:09:44.299 we did at that time. 196 00:09:44.399 --> 00:09:46.490 Well, let me ask you a question, because it brings 197 00:09:46.570 --> 00:09:49.490 up sort of the incentives of those systems that created that, 198 00:09:49.509 --> 00:09:51.820 because I think you're You make a nice point about 199 00:09:51.860 --> 00:09:54.980 the 60s and 70s being tumultuous in that same way. 200 00:09:56.580 --> 00:09:59.929 I think the Iran war has gone south in some ways. 201 00:10:00.009 --> 00:10:05.039 some ways because this administration doesn't respect us enough to 202 00:10:05.100 --> 00:10:08.059 lie to us. They kind of don't give a shit 203 00:10:08.740 --> 00:10:13.759 what we think. And in the 60s and 70s, the 204 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:18.600 lies were generally, you know, media has found a way, 205 00:10:18.620 --> 00:10:23.940 the incentives of it. to uh get weaponized bad faith 206 00:10:24.059 --> 00:10:29.559 actors weaponize it right uh the ubiquity of cable news 207 00:10:29.720 --> 00:10:33.179 was at first and tv in general in the 60s 208 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:36.870 and 70s politicians weren't quite sure what to do with 209 00:10:36.879 --> 00:10:40.230 tv and you remember the debate between kennedy and nixon 210 00:10:41.409 --> 00:10:43.669 uh and kennedy went out there and he understood that 211 00:10:43.690 --> 00:10:46.230 television is a visual medium and nixon was like i 212 00:10:46.250 --> 00:10:50.700 don't need makeup i look great And he got his 213 00:10:51.659 --> 00:10:54.220 ass kicked on the TV side. But if you listen 214 00:10:54.240

--> 00:10:57.919 to it on the radio, people thought Nixon won. Do 215 00:10:57.960 --> 00:11:02.840 you think it's, in some respects, the media has just, 216 00:11:04.379 --> 00:11:09.320 politics has figured out how to weaponize media. Is that 217 00:11:09.399 --> 00:11:11.950 fair to say? Like you just talked about all these 218 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:16.129 bad faith actors, right? They exist as part of a 219 00:11:16.230 --> 00:11:19.539 political ecosystem. As a way of, you know, Roger Ailes 220 00:11:19.570 --> 00:11:22.669 very famously said, I want to create something so that 221 00:11:22.690 --> 00:11:27.470 what happened to Nixon could never happen to another Republican president. 222 00:11:28.990 --> 00:11:33.590 You know, sometimes we separate media and politics. But isn't 223 00:11:33.629 --> 00:11:36.990 it true that in a lot of ways, there's a symbiosis? 224 00:11:37.470 --> 00:11:41.230 A lot of it's been co-opted by politics. And I'm 225 00:11:41.289 --> 00:11:43.149 curious what you think of that. And we can talk 226 00:11:43.190 --> 00:11:45.149 a little bit about breaking down those ecosystems. 227 00:11:45.350 --> 00:11:45.549 Yeah. 228 00:11:46.070 --> 00:11:48.169 I mean, I think it's a double-edged sword. On the 229 00:11:48.269 --> 00:11:52.049 one hand, absolutely. And the amount of propaganda, the amount 230 00:11:52.090 --> 00:11:54.850 of lies, you know, you go on Twitter now, X, 231 00:11:55.129 --> 00:11:57.759 and there's all these accounts that are just AI slop 232 00:11:57.799 --> 00:12:00.240 accounts feeding all kinds of nonsense. It makes it very 233 00:12:00.279 --> 00:12:02.879 difficult actually to sort out what's happening in the war, 234 00:12:02.940 --> 00:12:06.440 not to mention there's a total censorship lockdown on the U.S. 235 00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:09.470 as part of what is happening in the region. On 236 00:12:09.490 --> 00:12:11.529 the flip side of it, though, there's also a hopeful 237 00:12:11.590 --> 00:12:13.990 story there because in its best incarnation, you know, they 238 00:12:14.009 --> 00:12:16.049 haven't been able to cover up the horrors and genocide. 239 00:12:16.120 --> 00:12:18.820 People watch that in 4K themselves and they took their 240 00:12:18.940 --> 00:12:21.519 own moral opinion of what was happening there and it 241 00:12:21.580 --> 00:12:25.269 went directly against what the bipartisan elite consensus had been 242 00:12:25.350 --> 00:12:27.450 for years and years. I think you're right that it's 243 00:12:27.690 --> 00:12:30.350 insulting that they didn't even bother to lie to us 244 00:12:30.409 --> 00:12:33.259 this time before the war. I think it also reflects 245 00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:35.320 the fact that Donald Trump doesn't feel that he needs 246 00:12:35.379 --> 00:12:38.399 to go through the mechanisms of democracy. We just have 247 00:12:38.419 --> 00:12:41.799 to swallow whatever insanity he's going to do But I 248 00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:44.110 also think the fact that you have so many dissenting 249 00:12:44.179 --> 00:12:48.409 voices in new media that were critical from the beginning 250 00:12:48.470 --> 00:12:51.570 and able to expose the very thin level of propaganda 251 00:12:51.879 --> 00:12:53.679 that had been fed to us has also been a 252 00:12:53.720 --> 00:12:57.190 positive point. Now, I get concerned because there are also– 253 00:12:57.620 --> 00:13:00.759 Legacy media has its advantages. There was a real tradition 254 00:13:00.799 --> 00:13:05.840 and a firewall between opinion and the journalist part and 255 00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:08.639 the advertising, and those walls fall down in new media. 256 00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:10.840 But overall, I think when you look at those two 257 00:13:10.879 --> 00:13:14.679 stories in particular, you can see that it has helped 258 00:13:14.950 --> 00:13:20.669 to create a better atmosphere for small-D democratic understanding of 259 00:13:20.789 --> 00:13:23.159 what these wars and what this genocide actually are. 260 00:13:23.740 --> 00:13:26.299 I think that's a really important point. It's a double-edged sword, 261 00:13:26.340 --> 00:13:28.769 as Crystal said. I compare it to the invention of 262 00:13:28.809 --> 00:13:31.909 the printing press. I mean, that's how the internet— seriously, that's 263 00:13:31.929 --> 00:13:47.379 what the internet— But of course, nobody would say, well, yeah, 264 00:13:47.419 --> 00:13:49.200 the invention of the printing press was bad. It was 265 00:13:49.259 --> 00:13:52.070 just– it unleashed a new medium of debate. Much of 266 00:13:52.129 --> 00:13:55.730 it was propaganda, actually pornography, one of the original inventions 267 00:13:55.870 --> 00:13:59.049 of the printing press of mass distribution just like the internet. 268 00:13:59.370 --> 00:14:01.990 But what it demonstrated I think on a long enough 269 00:14:02.029 --> 00:14:04.769 timeline was a more– informed public. And that's the thing. 270 00:14:04.809 --> 00:14:07.370 We're working things out, as Crystal said. And this is 271 00:14:07.389 --> 00:14:09.570 where I think all of us can be upfront and honest. 272 00:14:09.710 --> 00:14:12.210 We are in a difficult position because we are people 273 00:14:12.269 --> 00:14:14.330 who do the news, but Crystal and I are also 274 00:14:14.450 --> 00:14:18.669 business owners. We co-own our company, but we set rules 275 00:14:18.789 --> 00:14:22.190 at the very beginning. We do not read ads, period, 276 00:14:22.269 --> 00:14:25.000 because we believe that if we did so, it could 277 00:14:25.029 --> 00:14:28.220 potentially compromise things in the future. Now, we know that 278 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:32.740 we have sacrificed a literally like multiple zeros of income. However, 279 00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:36.470 what we've decided instead was to build a more anti-fragile business. 280 00:14:36.779 --> 00:14:39.669 For example, like we have a premium subscription program. We 281 00:14:39.690 --> 00:14:42.190

have YouTube revenue. You know, we have like dynamic ads, 282 00:14:42.210 --> 00:14:44.289 which are not ads that we read, which we have 283 00:14:44.350 --> 00:14:46.889 no negotiation with. or interesting, but it took a level 284 00:14:46.929 --> 00:14:50.429 of intentionality. However, though, there's no reason that we had 285 00:14:50.470 --> 00:14:52.970 to do that. If we wanted to read Manscaped as- And. 286 00:14:52.929 --> 00:14:54.210 Most people are not doing that. 287 00:14:54.230 --> 00:14:54.450 Exactly. 288 00:14:54.490 --> 00:14:55.570 And are not going to do that. 289 00:14:55.669 --> 00:14:55.750 Yeah. 290 00:14:55.789 --> 00:14:57.470 And most people are not doing that and are much 291 00:14:57.529 --> 00:14:59.110 richer than us as a result. 292 00:14:59.610 --> 00:15:01.509 But we believe in the long run it'll work out. 293 00:15:01.529 --> 00:15:04.659 You're starting to make me sweat, and it's why I 294 00:15:05.019 --> 00:15:16.029 look to quince to create a new wardrobe. Hey, folks, 295 00:15:16.129 --> 00:15:19.899 I know you're trying to figure out ways to skip 296 00:15:19.940 --> 00:15:23.120 through these little ad reads here. I get that. I know. 297 00:15:23.220 --> 00:15:24.740 I know what you're doing. I know you're looking into 298 00:15:24.779 --> 00:15:28.990 that Spotify thing. Yeah, listen, I'm not blind, you bastards. 299 00:15:29.610 --> 00:15:31.450 And to be honest with you, I'm not crazy about 300 00:15:31.490 --> 00:15:34.570 reading them in the first place, generally, except for this one, 301 00:15:35.590 --> 00:15:37.990 Ground News. You know, I'm always going to go to 302 00:15:38.029 --> 00:15:43.379 bat for the Ground News. Ground News, because it's, I 303 00:15:43.419 --> 00:15:46.120 hate the news. I hate what it's doing to me emotionally. 304 00:15:46.980 --> 00:15:49.259 I hate that you don't really know where the information 305 00:15:49.299 --> 00:15:51.639 is coming from. Sometimes you don't know how it's being 306 00:15:51.659 --> 00:15:56.419 manipulated and it adds to the creeping fog of sadness 307 00:15:56.779 --> 00:15:58.820 that grows. But I have to keep up. I have 308 00:15:58.840 --> 00:16:00.679 to understand what's going on in the world. And that's 309 00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:03.909 why Ground News, they've got a website. It's an app. 310 00:16:04.190 --> 00:16:06.769 You can see how different news outlets will frame the 311 00:16:06.850 --> 00:16:10.950 same story. They've got a blind spot feed so you 312 00:16:10.970 --> 00:16:14.980 can challenge yourself about your news consumption. To get the 313 00:16:15.019 --> 00:16:19.340 same unlimited access to the Vantage subscription, go to groundnews.com 314 00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:23.240 slash Stuart and subscribe to get 40% off. Discount only 315 00:16:23.259 --> 00:16:27.080 available for a limited time. That's groundnews.com slash Stuart or 316 00:16:27.159 --> 00:16:35.159 scan the QR code on screen. But Sagar, so this 317 00:16:35.399 --> 00:16:39.860 is really interesting to me because we're talking about media independence. 318 00:16:40.860 --> 00:16:43.679 And when you think of independence, I think writ large, 319 00:16:43.700 --> 00:16:46.379 you think of it as media independence from corporate interest. 320 00:16:47.080 --> 00:16:51.440 We're not owned by Universal or GE or any of 321 00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:56.299 these things. But independence is also, are you independent from 322 00:16:56.330 --> 00:17:02.009 a political motivation? Yes. That's another form of independence. And 323 00:17:02.049 --> 00:17:04.809 a lot of people, I think, are captured by that. 324 00:17:05.329 --> 00:17:08.910 But the third avenue of independence, and I wonder about 325 00:17:08.950 --> 00:17:13.750 this for you, is What are your incentives to the audience? 326 00:17:15.109 --> 00:17:17.210 You know, when you say we have a subscription model 327 00:17:17.230 --> 00:17:21.089 and all that, and do the incentives of, look, we 328 00:17:21.150 --> 00:17:24.819 all know in an attention economy, what sells the most 329 00:17:24.920 --> 00:17:30.079 is probably outrage, anger, and those things. So how do 330 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:35.759 you and your model avoid being captured by the rage 331 00:17:35.829 --> 00:17:39.769 of the townspeople? You know, how do you avoid pitchforks 332 00:17:40.029 --> 00:17:40.569 and torches? 333 00:17:41.220 --> 00:17:43.380 Well, that's why we're really blessed. Honestly, it's a right 334 00:17:43.420 --> 00:17:46.319 left show. So, you know, at any given time, a 335 00:17:46.619 --> 00:17:49.819 decent portion of the audience is mad. So that's actually 336 00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:50.720 built into. 337 00:17:50.740 --> 00:17:51.359 It works well. 338 00:17:51.640 --> 00:17:52.619 It works really well. 339 00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:54.680 We're going to be hated no matter what by some portion. 340 00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:57.720 We are very often hated by our own pain. We 341 00:17:57.740 --> 00:18:00.539 might have one of the most ignominious honors of being 342 00:18:00.660 --> 00:18:03.220 often hated by the people who pay us. But that's 343 00:18:03.289 --> 00:18:06.329 built in, as I said. So at various different times, 344 00:18:06.490 --> 00:18:09.349 we've gone through these types of events before. People are 345 00:18:09.369 --> 00:18:11.569 mad that you said X, Y or Z. But because 346 00:18:11.609 --> 00:18:14.710 of our political independence and the right left kind of 347 00:18:14.769 --> 00:18:17.990 dynamic that is baked in to the heart of the program, 348 00:18:18.329 --> 00:18:20.670 it means that there are always new people who also 349 00:18:20.730 --> 00:18:23.390 show up. That's one of the things where a lot 350 00:18:23.410 --> 00:18:25.230 of the and you actually can see this. There's a 351 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:27.940 lot of articles about MAGA media and how it's collapsing 352 00:18:28.420 --> 00:18:31.900 as enthusiasm in MAGA

and the project with Donald Trump, 353 00:18:31.960 --> 00:18:34.779 especially with younger men, starts to go down. People who 354 00:18:34.839 --> 00:18:37.700 went all in on just Trump alone or on right 355 00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:41.410 wing supporters. so-called media are seeing a dramatic reduction in 356 00:18:41.430 --> 00:18:44.069 their overall revenue and views, because that's just not really 357 00:18:44.089 --> 00:18:46.269 what people want to hear right now. That is just 358 00:18:46.329 --> 00:18:48.670 not something that could ever happen to us, because Crystal 359 00:18:48.690 --> 00:18:52.250 would always represent a side of somebody who's critical of MAGA, right? 360 00:18:52.450 --> 00:18:55.410 I mean, even I am, obviously, as well, but vice versa, 361 00:18:55.450 --> 00:18:58.730 let's say whenever Joe Biden was president. And so we're 362 00:18:58.849 --> 00:19:02.269 very lucky, honestly, in the way that we designed everything. 363 00:19:02.390 --> 00:19:05.170 But what you're laying out is a very real problem. 364 00:19:05.250 --> 00:19:08.670 And it explains grifterism, which is basically people who have 365 00:19:08.690 --> 00:19:13.150 to continue it going, manufacture and create new type of 366 00:19:13.190 --> 00:19:17.150 controversies purely for an economic incentive, which isn't enough of 367 00:19:17.190 --> 00:19:18.230 a cancer that we have today. 368 00:19:18.589 --> 00:19:18.829 Yeah. 369 00:19:18.890 --> 00:19:21.380 I mean, audience capture is very real. You can kind of, 370 00:19:21.430 --> 00:19:23.759 if you're watching channels closely, you can tell who's just 371 00:19:23.779 --> 00:19:26.099 catering to their audience and what they think, you know, 372 00:19:26.140 --> 00:19:30.319 an algorithm wants them to produce. But I also want 373 00:19:30.339 --> 00:19:32.839 to say with regard to the fury and the pitchforks, 374 00:19:32.859 --> 00:19:35.200 like I think people have good reason to be furious 375 00:19:35.240 --> 00:19:38.230 right now. I think both on an economic level, you know, 376 00:19:38.250 --> 00:19:40.430 we've been thrust into this war that basically no one 377 00:19:40.490 --> 00:19:43.559 wanted that is devastating for the global economy. It's first 378 00:19:43.579 --> 00:19:47.450 and foremost devastating for Iranians, and Iranian civilians. We have 379 00:19:48.210 --> 00:19:51.519 had our taxpayer dollars used to fund a genocide that, again, 380 00:19:51.559 --> 00:19:55.119 the public has vociferously turned against. And we have a 381 00:19:55.160 --> 00:19:58.460 system that is rigged by an oligarch class. So I 382 00:19:58.500 --> 00:20:01.279 think talking about those things, the way that the AI 383 00:20:01.400 --> 00:20:06.019 oligarchs literally want to take everyone's jobs... Yeah, people should 384 00:20:06.059 --> 00:20:09.339 get angry about that. Those are things that should infuriate you. 385 00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:11.660 And so we don't shy away from that. You know, 386 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:13.890 I think to be informed right now is to be 387 00:20:14.029 --> 00:20:15.930 angry and furious about the state of affairs. 388 00:20:16.670 --> 00:20:19.490 Let me ask you, because it's, you know, it's such 389 00:20:19.529 --> 00:20:22.190 an interesting thing to point out how many real things 390 00:20:22.230 --> 00:20:26.250 there are that can shock the conscience of people. And yet, 391 00:20:27.250 --> 00:20:29.990 I think if I'm being fair about where the real 392 00:20:30.210 --> 00:20:32.950 energy of the debate is right now, It's whether or 393 00:20:32.990 --> 00:20:36.539 not Ennis Cantor is going to get drafted into the WNBA. 394 00:20:37.099 --> 00:20:42.519 Like the real outrage in this country and culture doesn't 395 00:20:42.579 --> 00:20:49.160 seem to be about those very real points you just articulated, Kristen. 396 00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:51.349 And to me, Sagar may have a different take on this, 397 00:20:51.410 --> 00:20:53.650 but to me, it's very obvious what's going on here. 398 00:20:54.210 --> 00:20:57.890 Trump's approval is in the toilet. His war is a disaster. 399 00:20:57.910 --> 00:21:01.799 The economic numbers are trashed. People are furious. 400 00:21:02.299 --> 00:21:05.299 I think it's the greatest economy this country's ever had. 401 00:21:05.339 --> 00:21:06.259 I forgot about that. 402 00:21:06.359 --> 00:21:06.599 Yes. 403 00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:11.670 According to Fox News. Absolutely. And Republicans are facing what 404 00:21:11.710 --> 00:21:15.170 is likely to be a landslide defeat in the midterms. 405 00:21:15.529 --> 00:21:17.230 So what are they doing? They're going back to the 406 00:21:17.269 --> 00:21:20.829 culture war bag of tricks. Here's a shiny object. that 407 00:21:20.890 --> 00:21:23.430 I can tangle over at Fox News to get our 408 00:21:23.569 --> 00:21:26.170 own base back in line. But I actually don't think 409 00:21:26.210 --> 00:21:29.930 that that's what's driving, for example, the electoral results that 410 00:21:29.950 --> 00:21:32.539 we're seeing in Democratic primaries across the country and likely 411 00:21:32.579 --> 00:21:34.799 to see in the general election in the fall. There, 412 00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:38.200 to me, the number one issue is very likely the economy, 413 00:21:38.220 --> 00:21:40.279 but it's also horror at a foreign policy that is 414 00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:42.359 both expensive and deeply immoral. 415 00:21:43.240 --> 00:21:45.839 Yeah, John, I would push back a bit. I agree 416 00:21:45.859 --> 00:21:46.319 with you. 417 00:21:46.599 --> 00:21:46.839 What? 418 00:21:46.900 --> 00:21:47.660 How dare you, sir? 419 00:21:48.099 --> 00:21:52.089 Well, I just think it's reflective maybe of a cable 420 00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:55.589 news bias because you're right. I believe the WNBA was 421 00:21:55.630 --> 00:22:00.430 the second most mentioned topic on Fox News this week. 422 00:22:00.730 --> 00:22:03.609 And that's

probably true of the 65 plus crowd if 423 00:22:03.670 --> 00:22:05.970 I were to go and ask them. However, the segments 424 00:22:06.039 --> 00:22:09.079 that perform best on our channel are things about the 425 00:22:09.099 --> 00:22:15.390 housing crisis, are about flock cameras. data centers, AI displacement 426 00:22:15.490 --> 00:22:18.829 and job loss, foreign policy. I mean, I never thought 427 00:22:18.910 --> 00:22:21.069 I would have my dream job of being able to 428 00:22:21.130 --> 00:22:23.990 speak to guys like Professor John Mearsheimer, who was my 429 00:22:24.099 --> 00:22:26.920 literal idol, for over like an hour and a half 430 00:22:27.019 --> 00:22:29.920 and have him describe like great power politics and the 431 00:22:29.980 --> 00:22:33.599 Iran war and watch millions of people want to engage 432 00:22:33.940 --> 00:22:37.690 with that type of content. And so I do think like, look, 433 00:22:37.869 --> 00:22:41.150 are we amusing ourselves to death? Empirically, yes. I mean, 434 00:22:41.230 --> 00:22:43.750 not just in terms of sports, but with gambling and 435 00:22:43.769 --> 00:22:46.150 many of the other vices which are exploding in our 436 00:22:46.190 --> 00:22:49.609 current society. However, what we always also point out on 437 00:22:49.630 --> 00:22:53.960 the show, that is derivative of real problems like housing, 438 00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:57.059 which is the one I would say we see the 439 00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:00.380 most consistent rage in terms of not just our audience, 440 00:23:00.420 --> 00:23:05.309 but in our demographic. And it is downstream of so 441 00:23:05.349 --> 00:23:09.029 many of the other problems that we face as a society. 442 00:23:09.130 --> 00:23:10.509 And so- Can I also- Yeah, go ahead. 443 00:23:10.849 --> 00:23:12.809 Can I also just say, John, that I think, too, 444 00:23:13.490 --> 00:23:15.269 the revelation– this will feel like a bit of a 445 00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:18.279 left turn– but the revelations in the Epstein files of 446 00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:21.960 the way that this powerful elite actually has this incredible 447 00:23:22.099 --> 00:23:25.519 class solidarity and the way that they operate– I think 448 00:23:25.579 --> 00:23:28.819 it's blown some of the lid off of this idea that, 449 00:23:28.859 --> 00:23:31.140 you know, what we should really be focused on is 450 00:23:31.569 --> 00:23:35.430 trans people or these culture war debates, because we've been 451 00:23:35.470 --> 00:23:38.750 able to see the way the powerful actually work in 452 00:23:38.789 --> 00:23:41.690 the world and the view that they have of the 453 00:23:41.750 --> 00:23:44.289 rest of us. And so I think that that has 454 00:23:44.329 --> 00:23:47.529 been a very educational and illuminating experience for people as 455 00:23:47.609 --> 00:23:50.339 well as they process some of these like new red 456 00:23:50.380 --> 00:23:53.650 meat culture war debates that are thrown into the mix. Yeah. 457 00:23:53.670 --> 00:23:55.569 It's just hard to imagine, you know, when we talk 458 00:23:55.589 --> 00:23:58.529 about and the importance of it, all these things that 459 00:23:58.549 --> 00:24:01.670 you're bringing up are, are truly important. And yet there's 460 00:24:01.710 --> 00:24:07.130 been no accountability for, for any of it. Correct. And 461 00:24:07.529 --> 00:24:12.410 it seems like what there is accountability for either legislatively 462 00:24:12.450 --> 00:24:18.099 or otherwise are culture war issues that like, I'll give 463 00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:21.660 you an example, you know, the save act being, uh, 464 00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:25.410 you know, uh, at the forefront of so much of 465 00:24:25.450 --> 00:24:28.690 the problems that were going on in the Senate right now. 466 00:24:28.769 --> 00:24:32.190 And the liberals, they don't want, they want illegals who 467 00:24:32.230 --> 00:24:35.589 are voting in millions of numbers, not to, you know, 468 00:24:36.009 --> 00:24:39.450 show an ID, you know, just utter nonsense that gets 469 00:24:39.490 --> 00:24:42.640 thrown out there or the trans debate as being at 470 00:24:42.680 --> 00:24:45.960 the forefront of what's in everybody's minds about the debt, 471 00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:51.180 like nuance is utterly removed through the process of our 472 00:24:51.240 --> 00:24:54.630 media and our politics. Yet the things that you talk 473 00:24:54.670 --> 00:25:00.059 about that are facing Americans or are making them question 474 00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:05.490 the legitimacy of our institutions are never addressed, seemingly with 475 00:25:05.529 --> 00:25:07.309 no accountability. Yeah. 476 00:25:07.369 --> 00:25:08.910 I mean, that's kind of the core of our show. 477 00:25:09.069 --> 00:25:09.490 Go ahead. 478 00:25:09.509 --> 00:25:11.930 Can I give you another example of that, John, which 479 00:25:12.009 --> 00:25:14.180 is very much top of news cycle right now? So 480 00:25:14.200 --> 00:25:17.599 there's this whole controversy about Hassan Piker and whether or 481 00:25:17.619 --> 00:25:21.200 not candidates should associate with him. And Abdullah Syed famously 482 00:25:21.220 --> 00:25:23.740 had a rally with him. So he's being targeted right 483 00:25:23.779 --> 00:25:25.990 now is like, how dare you associate with this guy 484 00:25:26.029 --> 00:25:28.950 who said all these terrible things? The clip that they 485 00:25:29.089 --> 00:25:31.930 usually point to is where he says that we, quote unquote, 486 00:25:31.990 --> 00:25:35.000 deserve 9-11. He's talking about the concept of blowback and 487 00:25:35.119 --> 00:25:39.079 for which he has since apologized. Meanwhile, Abdul El-Sayed is 488 00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:43.579 running against a guy who literally was in Congress after 9-11, 489 00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:49.319 who authorized the Iraq war, who supported mass surveillance. Who 490 00:25:49.339 --> 00:25:54.319 defended torture. But that guy is fine. But associating

with 491 00:25:54.359 --> 00:25:57.910 someone who said something that was edgy one time, that's 492 00:25:58.029 --> 00:26:01.109 what's out of bounds. That's what should be off limits. 493 00:26:01.589 --> 00:26:03.829 That's not just me, but I think most people. 494 00:26:04.170 --> 00:26:10.119 J.D. Vance's spiritual advisor, you know, the preacher that J.D. 495 00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:13.680 Vance considers one of his sort of spiritual advisors, talks 496 00:26:13.759 --> 00:26:18.259 about male dominion. You know, there are all kinds of 497 00:26:18.339 --> 00:26:22.140 extremes involved. In terms of association, I remember with Obama, 498 00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:23.279 you know. Yeah, go ahead. 499 00:26:23.380 --> 00:26:27.039 Just think about, though, the contrast between Hassan Peker said 500 00:26:27.099 --> 00:26:30.700 a thing in response to 9-11 versus this guy actually 501 00:26:30.759 --> 00:26:35.690 was in power and was involved in the horrific lies 502 00:26:35.730 --> 00:26:37.829 leading up to that war, the authorization of the war, 503 00:26:38.109 --> 00:26:42.470 the torture, the murder of Iraqi civilians. And so when 504 00:26:42.509 --> 00:26:46.170 you talk about accountability, where is the accountability for that? 505 00:26:46.589 --> 00:26:49.289 Where is the moral weight on that? Versus, I mean, 506 00:26:49.329 --> 00:26:51.630 many of these guys that were villains on your show 507 00:26:52.009 --> 00:26:54.319 when you were covering the Iraq war are still around 508 00:26:54.380 --> 00:26:58.339 today to propagandize us and push us in the Iran war. 509 00:26:58.680 --> 00:27:01.000 So I think that lack of accountability you point to 510 00:27:01.460 --> 00:27:04.480 is a big failing in our society. And in my opinion, 511 00:27:04.579 --> 00:27:07.920 it has to be corrected. in the next administration. People 512 00:27:08.180 --> 00:27:10.839 have to go to prison for the crimes that were committed, 513 00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:14.240 whether it's rogue ICE agents, whether it's insider trading within 514 00:27:14.299 --> 00:27:18.049 this regime. That has to happen for us to reestablish 515 00:27:18.190 --> 00:27:19.809 anything approaching a healthy society. 516 00:27:19.890 --> 00:27:22.910 And I will say, John, for me, I know I'm 517 00:27:23.130 --> 00:27:26.210 with two liberals here, so I'm trying to pick my 518 00:27:26.349 --> 00:27:30.069 battles carefully. Sorry, a leftist and a liberal, a leftist 519 00:27:30.210 --> 00:27:32.549 and a liberal. And I'm going to have to fact, 520 00:27:32.569 --> 00:27:34.130 I'm going to have to check on that J.D. Vance 521 00:27:34.150 --> 00:27:35.930 spiritual advisor one. 522 00:27:35.950 --> 00:27:37.269 Hegseth spiritual advisor. 523 00:27:37.309 --> 00:27:39.549 I was going to say, I was like, I'm fairly 524 00:27:39.589 --> 00:27:40.599 certain that's not true. 525 00:27:40.670 --> 00:27:43.420 That was Hegseth, but J.D. Vance was Peter Thiel. 526 00:27:44.059 --> 00:27:44.380 Okay. 527 00:27:44.420 --> 00:27:48.920 Like when asked by Ross Dutat, should human beings continue 528 00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:49.539 to exist? 529 00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:50.500 Long pause. 530 00:27:50.519 --> 00:27:52.720 Paused for like eight seconds to be like, I don't 531 00:27:52.769 --> 00:27:58.450 know about humans. And like has unbelievably, you know, this, 532 00:27:58.490 --> 00:28:00.549 the other people that are in those, my point being, 533 00:28:01.240 --> 00:28:06.140 Guilt by association, which is often thrown in Democrats' faces, 534 00:28:06.200 --> 00:28:10.930 whether it was Obama's spiritual advisor, can be thrown into 535 00:28:10.970 --> 00:28:12.890 the right's faces, but it never seems to be done 536 00:28:12.910 --> 00:28:13.589 in that way. That's fair. 537 00:28:13.609 --> 00:28:15.630 What was it? Pastor Wright. Is that right? Pastor Wright? 538 00:28:16.190 --> 00:28:16.950 Now that I think about it. 539 00:28:16.970 --> 00:28:17.170 Yes. 540 00:28:17.210 --> 00:28:19.170 Oh, with Obama you're talking about? 541 00:28:19.210 --> 00:28:20.089 Yeah. God. 542 00:28:20.210 --> 00:28:20.569 Yeah. 543 00:28:20.759 --> 00:28:24.660 Anyway, I think the vein I'm picking up on, and 544 00:28:24.680 --> 00:28:26.740 this is where I'm, I mean, I would say this 545 00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:29.559 is like the great disappointment, political disappointment of my life. 546 00:28:30.150 --> 00:28:35.009 as I said, was I was inspired to get involved 547 00:28:35.049 --> 00:28:36.390 in politics because of Iraq. 548 00:28:37.349 --> 00:28:37.670 And the. 549 00:28:40.230 --> 00:28:43.420 Centerpiece of the 2024 campaign, and it's fair for people 550 00:28:43.460 --> 00:28:47.099 to say that you were fooled, was no more foreign wars. 551 00:28:47.140 --> 00:28:49.279 I mean, the vice president, as you said, wrote an 552 00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:53.500 op-ed endorsing Trump, Trump's best legacy, no new wars. Stephen 553 00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:56.440 Miller famously said, Kamala will send your sons to war. 554 00:28:56.910 --> 00:29:00.420 a significant contingent in the 2024 campaign, was we are 555 00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:04.539 not going to war with Iran. And so to live 556 00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:10.140 in a reality where Trump dastardly and disgracefully attacks Iran 557 00:29:10.839 --> 00:29:17.980 under the cover of negotiations twice, kills 168 schoolgirls, delivers 558 00:29:18.019 --> 00:29:21.400 the greatest strategic disaster to the United States, potentially either 559 00:29:21.460 --> 00:29:23.579 since Vietnam or eclipsing it, if you talk to one 560 00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:26.809 of our guests, Professor Robert Pape, to live in that 561 00:29:26.849 --> 00:29:29.599 reality with those people who I really did trust. And 562 00:29:29.619 --> 00:29:31.700 I'm saying this on a personal level. I know many 563 00:29:31.740 --> 00:29:33.900 of them. I came up in politics kind of in 564 00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:37.670 the

same cohort. It has been the greatest betrayal of 565 00:29:37.750 --> 00:29:41.640 my lifetime. And I think what's really disappointing is how 566 00:29:41.740 --> 00:29:46.480 much of it is clearly BS in that I believed 567 00:29:46.599 --> 00:29:50.220 that the voters believed that the wars were bad. And 568 00:29:50.339 --> 00:29:54.430 so to live in a reality where Thomas Massey loses 569 00:29:54.490 --> 00:29:58.930 his House primary purely because of AIPAC and pro-Israel money 570 00:29:59.609 --> 00:30:02.289 and a boomer Republican base, who if you'd pull. 571 00:30:02.109 --> 00:30:05.190 Them under- Well, and that Trump, I mean, let's not 572 00:30:05.470 --> 00:30:05.910 deny- Yeah. 573 00:30:05.970 --> 00:30:09.150 And Trump, right, of course, 100%. Right, those two together, 574 00:30:09.230 --> 00:30:10.650 like those two forces together. 575 00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:12.799 Sagar, I want to ask you a question, and I 576 00:30:12.819 --> 00:30:15.779 mean this, and this is for Crystal too. The dynamic 577 00:30:15.819 --> 00:30:22.140 that you're describing is a politics that distorts reality, that 578 00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:29.509 creates an impression, and then makes policy choices to- To 579 00:30:29.569 --> 00:30:34.089 ameliorate the damage of this false reality. And you're saying 580 00:30:34.130 --> 00:30:39.549 that your dividing line for that was Iraq and now Iran. 581 00:30:40.450 --> 00:30:43.309 I think maybe the disconnect here for whatever you would 582 00:30:43.349 --> 00:30:45.470 call liberals or the left or any of those things 583 00:30:46.230 --> 00:30:50.930 is that the entirety of Trump's operation has been that. 584 00:30:51.990 --> 00:30:53.309 Is a con is what you're saying. 585 00:30:54.009 --> 00:30:57.150 That's right. Has been the same dynamic you're describing that 586 00:30:57.190 --> 00:31:00.329 has disappointed you in Iraq and Iran. I would say 587 00:31:00.369 --> 00:31:04.269 has disappointed me when you say the Haitian community is 588 00:31:04.390 --> 00:31:09.369 eating cats and dogs. Well, that's the same immigration-wise as 589 00:31:09.849 --> 00:31:14.150 Saddam Hussein is using these aluminum tubes to enrich uranium, 590 00:31:14.230 --> 00:31:16.140 and that's why we have to go in there. In 591 00:31:16.180 --> 00:31:20.019 other words, the reason that has been given for so 592 00:31:20.099 --> 00:31:23.559 many of these policy decisions that I would disagree with 593 00:31:24.150 --> 00:31:26.130 is also a distortion of reality. 594 00:31:26.210 --> 00:31:27.470 I think that's entirely fair, John. 595 00:31:27.670 --> 00:31:30.920 So I find it interesting that somehow Iran, it's like 596 00:31:30.940 --> 00:31:34.460 the whole Tucker Carlson of it. I've had enough. Really? 597 00:31:35.220 --> 00:31:37.519 Because it looks to me like it's the same shit 598 00:31:37.579 --> 00:31:39.329 that's been happening from day one. 599 00:31:39.569 --> 00:31:43.109 I think that's entirely fair, again, to take a step back. 600 00:31:43.150 --> 00:31:46.849 And I can only, from my perspective, like the Haitian thing. Yeah, 601 00:31:46.990 --> 00:31:49.230 it was a lie. The truth is a lot of 602 00:31:49.309 --> 00:31:52.890 us sat and swallowed it because we wanted less immigration. 603 00:31:52.950 --> 00:31:55.609 And we're like, OK, well, I mean, this highlights a 604 00:31:55.690 --> 00:31:58.099 topic and an issue which we can fight on. We 605 00:31:58.119 --> 00:32:00.420 can put the left on the back foot because they 606 00:32:00.460 --> 00:32:03.559 want mass amnesty and we don't. And that was a 607 00:32:03.579 --> 00:32:06.980 tactical political decision that people in politics make. all the time. 608 00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:09.480 But I'm not even sure they want mass amnesty. I 609 00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:11.460 even think that's a red herring. Fair. I don't know 610 00:32:11.500 --> 00:32:14.089 that they do want mass amnesty, but we don't have 611 00:32:14.119 --> 00:32:17.990 a politics in this country that's functional enough or literate 612 00:32:18.049 --> 00:32:21.920 enough to have an actual conversation about what immigration in 613 00:32:21.980 --> 00:32:23.039 this country should look like. 614 00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:25.619 I think that, again, I totally take your point. And 615 00:32:25.660 --> 00:32:27.369 this is where this is the most common. 616 00:32:27.549 --> 00:32:29.049 Look at me. Look at me. 617 00:32:29.069 --> 00:32:33.349 Come on. My parents are loving this. My parents are 618 00:32:33.369 --> 00:32:36.049 loving this. Me being put in my place. But I 619 00:32:36.109 --> 00:32:38.690 do think like with the Iran thing, and again, I 620 00:32:38.710 --> 00:32:41.640 can explain it from my perspective, which was these were 621 00:32:41.700 --> 00:32:45.180 people whose entire careers literally were kind of built on 622 00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:49.079 opposition to the neoconservative agenda. And did we know Trump 623 00:32:49.400 --> 00:32:52.859 is a liar. A con often says various different things. 624 00:32:53.059 --> 00:32:53.579 Absolutely. 625 00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:56.119 Many of us knew that or would say it in private. 626 00:32:56.400 --> 00:32:58.049 What we also knew is that in his first term, 627 00:32:58.069 --> 00:33:00.230 he was incredibly deferential to a lot of his staff. 628 00:33:00.589 --> 00:33:02.509 A lot of the people we were hiring, he was hiring. 629 00:33:02.650 --> 00:33:04.509 I knew for a fact, you know, at the very 630 00:33:04.549 --> 00:33:06.890 least had a genuine belief we shouldn't go. to war 631 00:33:06.930 --> 00:33:11.039 with Iran. But what was extremely blackpilling, to use an 632 00:33:11.160 --> 00:33:15.160 online term, was to see those same people have to 633 00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:19.299 defend the war and in some cases use Iraq rhetoric. 634 00:33:19.339 --> 00:33:22.279 I mean, I remember the vice president, who I'd seen 635 00:33:22.359 --> 00:33:26.200 give

lectures against the war with Iran or against neoconservatism. 636 00:33:26.660 --> 00:33:28.089 He was in the Oval. It was in the middle 637 00:33:28.109 --> 00:33:29.609 of the Iran war. And he's like, it's like a 638 00:33:29.670 --> 00:33:32.230 suicide bomber. We're not going to wait till the suicide 639 00:33:32.269 --> 00:33:34.509 bomb goes off to disarm it. 640 00:33:34.509 --> 00:33:36.349 And I was like, oh my We don't want the 641 00:33:36.390 --> 00:33:37.960 smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud. 642 00:33:37.980 --> 00:33:43.069 It's Condoleezza Rice all over again. I actually couldn't believe it. 643 00:33:43.150 --> 00:33:46.220 And then- You know, Mark Thiessen is back on my 644 00:33:46.259 --> 00:33:49.400 television screen and Ari Fleischer is back on my television 645 00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:53.190 screen and the same liars like who are justifying this. 646 00:33:53.450 --> 00:33:56.930 And to watch that happen, like I would say, fine, 647 00:33:57.069 --> 00:33:59.609 I was fooled. I didn't think it would. I thought 648 00:33:59.809 --> 00:34:02.910 that the lesson was learned. And there's a major mea 649 00:34:02.950 --> 00:34:06.269 culpa that has had and has to be had by 650 00:34:06.289 --> 00:34:08.750 people who thought that it would be different and said so. 651 00:34:09.639 --> 00:34:11.260 So that's kind of where I am currently. 652 00:34:11.460 --> 00:34:14.119 Crystal, what do you think of that? Because it's hard 653 00:34:14.199 --> 00:34:16.449 for me to hear a mea culpa about an Iran 654 00:34:16.469 --> 00:34:20.349 war when the entire regime is that. There's an inevitability 655 00:34:20.769 --> 00:34:24.050 to the reality distortion field and the actions that they 656 00:34:24.090 --> 00:34:26.650 take based on a reality that they are creating. 657 00:34:27.369 --> 00:34:27.570 Yeah. 658 00:34:27.980 --> 00:34:30.139 Well, this is something Sagar and I have had it 659 00:34:30.579 --> 00:34:32.500 over on our show quite a lot and have sorted 660 00:34:32.519 --> 00:34:35.929 through in many conversations. And I've certainly had my I 661 00:34:35.949 --> 00:34:38.320 told you so's. And in fairness to Sagar. 662 00:34:38.340 --> 00:34:40.050 It's not even an I told you. I don't mean 663 00:34:40.090 --> 00:34:41.789 it that way. Honestly, it's not that. 664 00:34:41.989 --> 00:34:43.889 No, I get what you're saying, though. And I think 665 00:34:44.010 --> 00:34:47.730 one of the biggest differences in my view going into 666 00:34:47.769 --> 00:34:50.570 Trump 2.0 and Sagar's view, apart from the fact that 667 00:34:50.610 --> 00:34:53.050 we have different ideologies and so we have different things 668 00:34:53.090 --> 00:34:55.809 that we consider to be good or bad, specifically on 669 00:34:55.849 --> 00:35:00.460 immigration in particular. But Sagar's view was that there were 670 00:35:00.519 --> 00:35:03.219 institutional constraints the first time and there will be some 671 00:35:03.260 --> 00:35:04.809 institutional constraints this time. 672 00:35:04.989 --> 00:35:05.289 That's true. 673 00:35:14.519 --> 00:35:16.800 Whether it was the Supreme Court taking control of the 674 00:35:16.840 --> 00:35:18.900 Supreme Court and then the Supreme Court giving Trump a 675 00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:21.260 green light to commit whatever crimes in office that he 676 00:35:21.340 --> 00:35:24.329 wants to, whether it was the mass loyalty test and 677 00:35:24.429 --> 00:35:27.789 fealty that he demanded and demanded that people back up 678 00:35:27.829 --> 00:35:32.139 his 2020 election stolen lies. I looked at that and said, no, 679 00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:34.739 this is going to be gloves off. It is going 680 00:35:34.780 --> 00:35:38.340 to be a most maximalist version of what he would 681 00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:41.340 want to do, of what his id is. And it's 682 00:35:41.380 --> 00:35:44.219 going to be horrifying. Now, even I don't think could 683 00:35:44.260 --> 00:35:49.469 have anticipated all of the Doge and Seacott and murdering 684 00:35:49.590 --> 00:35:53.349 random fishermen in the Caribbean. I could have anticipated and 685 00:35:53.369 --> 00:35:57.150 did anticipate the Iran war. But those were, I think, 686 00:35:57.230 --> 00:35:59.929 two of the very different frames that we had coming 687 00:35:59.989 --> 00:36:02.429 into this. And, you know, for me, I'm very much 688 00:36:02.530 --> 00:36:07.159 caught between people who now are seeing some of the problems. 689 00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:10.989 I want to say, great, come along. But I agree 690 00:36:11.030 --> 00:36:14.650 with you that there has to be some reckoning with, okay, 691 00:36:15.420 --> 00:36:17.550 How did you get it wrong? And again, I think 692 00:36:17.590 --> 00:36:19.469 Sagar has actually done this, but how did you get 693 00:36:19.510 --> 00:36:21.110 it wrong? How did you end up in this place? 694 00:36:21.670 --> 00:36:24.630 And what are we doing going forward? Because if you're 695 00:36:24.670 --> 00:36:27.369 now just all of a sudden pretending like you had 696 00:36:27.389 --> 00:36:30.260 nothing to do with his rise, if you aren't reckoning 697 00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:34.800 with the other lies and horrors that unfolded during Trump 1.0 698 00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:37.239 and in the offseason and in the buildup to Iran, 699 00:36:37.659 --> 00:36:40.159 then it's going to be very difficult to have any 700 00:36:40.199 --> 00:36:43.639 sort of like coming together or certainly a coalition formed 701 00:36:43.690 --> 00:36:44.250 around that group. 702 00:36:51.670 --> 00:36:57.550 I only eat food now that afterwards I can swim 703 00:36:57.809 --> 00:37:02.650 in the bowl that I ate it in. Can you 704 00:37:02.690 --> 00:37:04.969 imagine if your cereal bowl was literally big enough you 705 00:37:05.010 --> 00:37:08.960 could eat your cereal and then go for a quick dip? Oh, oh, 706 00:37:09.059 --> 00:37:12.059 the time I would save. But I got to tell you, 707

00:37:12.699 --> 00:37:18.150 this magic spoon, man, it's healthy food. Cereal. Imagine that. Cereal, 708 00:37:18.449 --> 00:37:21.929 but healthy. It's Magic Spoon, changing the game. They got 709 00:37:21.929 --> 00:37:25.750 13 grams of protein, for those of you going through 710 00:37:25.769 --> 00:37:28.769 the change of life, as I am, where you get 711 00:37:28.809 --> 00:37:31.550 the old sarcopenias. As they come in, you got to 712 00:37:31.610 --> 00:37:33.750 get that muscle up. You got to get that protein. 713 00:37:34.389 --> 00:37:37.130 Zero sugar, by the way. Five grams of net carbs 714 00:37:37.170 --> 00:37:40.289 per serving. That's low. So you got a lot of protein, 715 00:37:40.530 --> 00:37:44.449 no sugar, and not that many carbs there. Great breakfast. 716 00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:49.719 Late night snack. post-workout fuel, wake up in the middle 717 00:37:49.780 --> 00:37:52.940 of the night weeping. It's a great time to console yourself. 718 00:37:53.780 --> 00:37:56.079 They got granola. They got snack bars. Come on, man. 719 00:37:56.579 --> 00:37:59.789 Don't make me beg. Look for Magic Spoon on Amazon 720 00:37:59.829 --> 00:38:02.449 or at your nearest grocery store. And there are plant-based 721 00:38:02.489 --> 00:38:04.869 versions of the cereal too. Even vegans get to feel 722 00:38:04.889 --> 00:38:07.550 like they had a childhood. You'll find vegan options at 723 00:38:07.570 --> 00:38:12.030 Whole Foods or get $ 5 off your next order at magicspoon.com 724 00:38:12.050 --> 00:38:24.119 slash TWS. That's magicspoon.com slash TWS. for $ 5 off. My 725 00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:30.579 concern is that this awakening is actually just strategic again. 726 00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:31.400 What do you mean by that? 727 00:38:32.380 --> 00:38:37.480 So, all right, let's go to the photograph in the 728 00:38:37.559 --> 00:38:42.019 Cracker Barrel, the Thomas Massey, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Tucker Carlson 729 00:38:42.099 --> 00:38:47.000 photo of the diaspora, the Republican diaspora, the Those that 730 00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:50.159 have woken and the Iran war, and now they sit 731 00:38:50.199 --> 00:38:53.199 in this room and they're going to come up with the, 732 00:38:53.340 --> 00:38:55.900 it's not, this is the real make America great again. 733 00:38:55.960 --> 00:39:00.219 That was fake. That we, we enabled it. We worked 734 00:39:00.280 --> 00:39:06.989 our asses off to, uh, amplify the lying to, uh, 735 00:39:07.030 --> 00:39:10.219 to help create a reality distortion field that has given 736 00:39:10.300 --> 00:39:14.789 us all of these bad outcomes from, uh, invading Iran 737 00:39:14.809 --> 00:39:18.869 and To a shitty reflecting pool because they're all one 738 00:39:18.889 --> 00:39:21.710 in the same. They're part of the same process, quite frankly. 739 00:39:22.690 --> 00:39:26.250 It's all the same. Great. It's the real great replacement theory. 740 00:39:27.369 --> 00:39:29.969 Let's take all the partisans and

replace them with ideal law. 741 00:39:30.590 --> 00:39:33.150 because partisans are part of the game ideologues are a 742 00:39:33.150 --> 00:39:36.840 whole different version and now what they've done is they've 743 00:39:36.929 --> 00:39:42.400 created a little isolated group that can say oh no 744 00:39:43.539 --> 00:39:47.559 we didn't go along with it so whoever kind of 745 00:39:47.699 --> 00:39:52.570 rises up to next lead MAGA that group can bless 746 00:39:53.449 --> 00:39:59.360 and provide cover to, to say, oh no, these guys 747 00:39:59.539 --> 00:40:02.539 have it right now. This is the real MAGA and 748 00:40:02.579 --> 00:40:05.719 we'll provide cover. And I don't think any of it 749 00:40:05.800 --> 00:40:09.510 is an intentional. I think the entirety of the design 750 00:40:09.550 --> 00:40:12.170 of this, and it's not just the last 10 years, 751 00:40:12.230 --> 00:40:13.469 it's the last 50 or 60 years. 752 00:40:13.530 --> 00:40:17.949 So, I mean, obviously a very cynical interpretation. And I 753 00:40:18.010 --> 00:40:18.869 know some of the people. 754 00:40:19.969 --> 00:40:23.889 Please tell me why I shouldn't be cynical about that interpretation. 755 00:40:23.909 --> 00:40:27.090 Please tell me why these bad faith actors are suddenly 756 00:40:27.260 --> 00:40:28.239 acting in good faith. 757 00:40:28.619 --> 00:40:30.920 You have every right to think that. I don't think 758 00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:34.519 that there's nearly the incentive that you necessarily are. Like 759 00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:36.880 you have people who all lost their elections and are 760 00:40:36.920 --> 00:40:39.909 not exactly like, well, let's say Marjorie Taylor Greene's and 761 00:40:39.969 --> 00:40:43.139 Thomas Massey's case, like actually lost their entire careers. Or 762 00:40:43.320 --> 00:40:45.690 Joe Kent, for example, who I know personally. 763 00:40:45.969 --> 00:40:48.090 I don't think they're the progenitors of it. I think 764 00:40:48.170 --> 00:40:51.110 Tucker is. I think he's the one who has to be, 765 00:40:51.469 --> 00:40:54.590 it's very telling. He said, I couldn't believe how little 766 00:40:54.670 --> 00:40:57.840 influence I have. His whole thing is I have to 767 00:40:57.880 --> 00:40:59.940 be in proximity to power. 768 00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:02.780 I see, look, I've known Tucker for a long time. 769 00:41:03.500 --> 00:41:06.599 I just don't really agree with that analysis, having spoken 770 00:41:06.639 --> 00:41:10.010 to him. I would say that he does feel genuinely 771 00:41:10.050 --> 00:41:12.750 burned by Donald Trump, not just with Iran, but actually 772 00:41:13.110 --> 00:41:14.530 With a lot more. I know you're skeptical. 773 00:41:14.590 --> 00:41:17.360 Well, I mean, how are you burned by a guy 774 00:41:17.489 --> 00:41:20.420 that 10 years ago you said, this man is corrupt 775 00:41:20.440 --> 00:41:22.599 to the core and I hate him? Sure. How are 776 00:41:22.639 --> 00:41:23.380 you burned by that? 777 00:41:23.460 --> 00:41:25.179 I mean, the vice president said that as well. 778 00:41:25.260 --> 00:41:25.460 Right. 779 00:41:25.480 --> 00:41:26.639 I think, right, people can change. 780 00:41:26.820 --> 00:41:32.280 And is also a cynical, cynical person manipulating himself into 781 00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:35.260 the halls of power. You can't convince me otherwise because 782 00:41:35.519 --> 00:41:37.019 I've seen no evidence of it. 783 00:41:37.420 --> 00:41:37.579 Sure. 784 00:41:37.719 --> 00:41:39.539 Let's take the vice president out because you're right. He's 785 00:41:39.559 --> 00:41:41.400 literally the vice president. So he had something to gain. 786 00:41:41.599 --> 00:41:45.550 I don't see necessarily the same Tucker gain. I guess 787 00:41:45.570 --> 00:41:48.110 whenever it comes to the third party or let's even 788 00:41:48.130 --> 00:41:51.869 take the Trump criticism, I again think it's genuine. It 789 00:41:52.130 --> 00:41:57.280 has lost him any like genuine friendships. cachet, I think, 790 00:41:57.340 --> 00:41:59.639 in terms of his ability to project power in a 791 00:41:59.639 --> 00:42:02.079 Republican party. I mean, I'm not sure if you've seen 792 00:42:02.119 --> 00:42:05.000 some of the approval polling on Tucker, like after Trump 793 00:42:05.019 --> 00:42:05.690 attacked him. 794 00:42:05.699 --> 00:42:07.059 Did they do approval. 795 00:42:06.599 --> 00:42:10.179 Polling on pundits? Yes, they did, because they were testing 796 00:42:10.219 --> 00:42:13.590 this exact theory of what you're discussing, which is like, hey, 797 00:42:13.650 --> 00:42:17.789 does Tucker independently have juice amongst Republicans without Trump? And 798 00:42:17.829 --> 00:42:21.250 his net negatives went much higher. Obviously, he's independent on 799 00:42:21.309 --> 00:42:23.630 his show, like in terms of his, like, you know, 800 00:42:23.730 --> 00:42:26.590 away from partisanship or his own economic situation. 801 00:42:26.630 --> 00:42:29.449 But Sagar, the same could be said about Republicans who 802 00:42:29.809 --> 00:42:32.949 were apostate about the Iraq war. In other words, people 803 00:42:33.010 --> 00:42:36.400 look to the future. And he's always been a guy 804 00:42:36.679 --> 00:42:40.300 that has looked to what's in it. Look, explain to 805 00:42:40.340 --> 00:42:43.300 me a guy who says, I'm all about liberty and 806 00:42:43.360 --> 00:42:45.659 America and make America great again. And you know who's 807 00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:53.400 really a great leader? Putin. There's an incoherence to this 808 00:42:53.559 --> 00:42:56.280 that has to be cynical because it's incoherent. 809 00:42:56.719 --> 00:43:00.320 I understand how you get there. But again, but it's like, 810 00:43:00.530 --> 00:43:02.150 and this is kind of like we were, because I 811 00:43:02.190 --> 00:43:04.829 work with Crystal, like I could see your brain pathways 812 00:43:05.530 --> 00:43:08.050 and how you get there. So I'll explain the

way 813 00:43:08.090 --> 00:43:10.130 that we would get there. And the way we would 814 00:43:10.150 --> 00:43:13.489 get there is like Tucker, or not even just Tucker, 815 00:43:13.510 --> 00:43:15.449 a lot of MAGA, and you're talking about Putin, I 816 00:43:15.489 --> 00:43:17.510 assume in terms of like the war in Ukraine or 817 00:43:17.969 --> 00:43:20.650 admiration or whatever for the Russian system. Some of which, 818 00:43:20.710 --> 00:43:22.469 by the way, I do think goes too far. but 819 00:43:22.610 --> 00:43:24.110 a lot of it is about a rejection. 820 00:43:24.130 --> 00:43:24.650 Some of which? 821 00:43:25.030 --> 00:43:27.769 No, I'm saying in terms of people who are like, oh, 822 00:43:27.849 --> 00:43:31.949 Russia is this pinnacle of Western greatness. And it's like, well, 823 00:43:32.030 --> 00:43:34.369 just look at their demographics and their economy. That's not 824 00:43:34.530 --> 00:43:37.900 exactly true. But the point that I think where it 825 00:43:38.019 --> 00:43:41.659 came from, again, just to try to explain this, is 826 00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:47.639 a lot of the original 2016 energy in particular was 827 00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:52.670 a Buchananite rejection of globalism. And In particular, I think 828 00:43:52.710 --> 00:43:55.480 what people tried to see in Putin or slash like 829 00:43:55.960 --> 00:43:59.679 admiration or whatever of Putin or the Russian system was 830 00:43:59.760 --> 00:44:03.760 somebody who stands athwart like the neoliberal West, right? So 831 00:44:03.800 --> 00:44:06.119 if I were to look at it through that frame, 832 00:44:06.599 --> 00:44:08.610 it's a little bit different. Like, I don't think it 833 00:44:08.710 --> 00:44:12.530 is necessarily as incongruent as you're thinking, because if you're 834 00:44:12.650 --> 00:44:16.389 a nationalist and your primary view of the world is 835 00:44:16.409 --> 00:44:19.030 that sovereignty itself is one of the things you should 836 00:44:19.090 --> 00:44:22.420 promote and not just promote, but to cherish and to 837 00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:25.119 hold dear as much as possible, then you're going to 838 00:44:25.199 --> 00:44:29.179 look at different countries which have rejected a Western global 839 00:44:29.239 --> 00:44:33.139 hegemon and say, oh, that's admirable, I guess, in a sense. Again, 840 00:44:33.219 --> 00:44:35.389 I'm not saying I agree with this, but I'm trying 841 00:44:35.409 --> 00:44:37.409 to explain how somebody would get there. 842 00:44:37.429 --> 00:44:41.889 Yeah. Well, Crystal, let me ask you, because this gets 843 00:44:41.949 --> 00:44:44.190 us into a whole other thing, but maybe this is 844 00:44:44.230 --> 00:44:48.409 the distinction between left-wing and right-wing populism. Because I always 845 00:44:48.429 --> 00:44:51.409 think of populism through a much more economic lens, but 846 00:44:51.449 --> 00:44:54.269 there really is a nationalist lens that you have to 847 00:44:54.289 --> 00:44:59.010 look through it as well. And the thing that's interesting 848 00:44:59.070 --> 00:45:03.000 about the right-wing populism is, and again, I view it 849 00:45:03.059 --> 00:45:08.519 as cynical. It's the Bannon theory of power. I'm going 850 00:45:08.539 --> 00:45:11.960 to combine left-wing economic populism because I think that gives 851 00:45:12.019 --> 00:45:14.639 me a large group of people to pull from. And 852 00:45:14.679 --> 00:45:18.750 I'm going to combine it with right wing, we must 853 00:45:18.849 --> 00:45:26.250 protect white Anglo-Saxon culture and Western civilization, which is their, 854 00:45:26.309 --> 00:45:35.780 I guess, sort of euphemism for that homogeneity. I think 855 00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:41.739 the second part of that, the white homogeneity is more 856 00:45:41.780 --> 00:45:45.460 important to them than the economic populism. And the reason 857 00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:48.139 that I think that is because They didn't tell their 858 00:45:48.199 --> 00:45:53.239 judges to be economic populists like every Supreme Court decision 859 00:45:53.280 --> 00:45:58.739 that comes down basically favors corporate interest rather than workers interest. 860 00:45:58.900 --> 00:46:02.360 The economic part of it, at least, you know, putting 861 00:46:02.380 --> 00:46:05.320 the voters aside, but in the expression of right wing 862 00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:07.739 populism in Trump and I would say other right wing 863 00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:11.920 populist leaders around the world. The economic part is basically fake. 864 00:46:12.039 --> 00:46:15.239 I mean, this has been an incredible administration for billionaires 865 00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:17.960 in the oligarch class. They've never made more money or 866 00:46:18.300 --> 00:46:22.050 had more power or been deregulated. They're getting everything they want. 867 00:46:22.469 --> 00:46:24.849 And that's part of why it was easier for Trump 868 00:46:25.349 --> 00:46:27.530 to take over the Republican Party than it has been 869 00:46:27.570 --> 00:46:29.829 for the left to. to take over the Democratic Party 870 00:46:29.869 --> 00:46:34.420 because the left-wing populism, that class dynamic you're talking about, 871 00:46:34.880 --> 00:46:38.579 that is the whole thing, right? It is, in populism, 872 00:46:38.599 --> 00:46:41.239 you're basically doing the people versus who is the villain. 873 00:46:41.679 --> 00:46:44.320 For the left, the villain is the billionaires, it's the trillionaires, 874 00:46:44.380 --> 00:46:47.239 it's the Epstein class, it's the oligarchs. For the right, 875 00:46:47.780 --> 00:46:50.909 it's typically, you know, to frame it, I think you're 876 00:46:50.949 --> 00:46:52.849 right in your framing. There's usually a lot of, you know, 877 00:46:52.889 --> 00:46:56.260 scapegoating of various minority groups, right? And so you can 878 00:46:56.579 --> 00:47:00.110 use a sort of sloppilist, faux populist rhetoric when it 879 00:47:00.139 --> 00:47:02.969 comes to the

economics. But that has all been cast aside. 880 00:47:03.030 --> 00:47:04.769 And in Trump 1.0, it was as well. I mean, 881 00:47:04.789 --> 00:47:08.210 their biggest economic accomplishment was this big tax cut for 882 00:47:08.250 --> 00:47:11.699 the rich that was cooked up by the Heritage Foundation 883 00:47:11.739 --> 00:47:15.150 and Paul Ryan. So I think that is an important 884 00:47:15.210 --> 00:47:19.130 distinction here. And I think that's increasingly becoming clear to 885 00:47:19.409 --> 00:47:22.369 many Americans, which is why Trump's approval rating on the 886 00:47:22.429 --> 00:47:25.800 economy is in the toilet, why there is such disgust 887 00:47:25.840 --> 00:47:29.780 with him, why you see this real rise of left-wing 888 00:47:29.940 --> 00:47:34.380 populist candidates who are overcoming a lot of money and 889 00:47:34.639 --> 00:47:38.989 establishment rejection of them and attempts to smear and demagogue 890 00:47:39.030 --> 00:47:42.380 against them. But they're able to succeed anyway because the 891 00:47:42.719 --> 00:47:45.519 establishment has lost so much credibility with the Democratic base, 892 00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:49.110 and also because these economic and oligarchic forces have become 893 00:47:49.190 --> 00:47:52.090 so abundantly apparent to so many Americans. 894 00:47:52.510 --> 00:47:55.469 Yeah, John, and I think, look, again, I hear your critique. 895 00:47:57.369 --> 00:48:02.190 By the way, Sagar, your way of dealing with me 896 00:48:02.210 --> 00:48:05.010 is exactly how now I'm going to go home and 897 00:48:05.050 --> 00:48:08.559 deal with people in my family. I hear what you're saying. 898 00:48:08.780 --> 00:48:09.019 Right. 899 00:48:09.860 --> 00:48:10.880 I see how you got there. 900 00:48:10.900 --> 00:48:12.579 I see how you got there. 901 00:48:13.059 --> 00:48:15.340 Because I spend my time with Crystal and, you know. 902 00:48:15.380 --> 00:48:18.780 I've been in that way, Mo, and I understand it's 903 00:48:18.800 --> 00:48:19.960 taken you. Right. 904 00:48:20.360 --> 00:48:21.719 You took one route, we're taking another. 905 00:48:21.780 --> 00:48:22.239 Exactly. 906 00:48:22.300 --> 00:48:25.280 If you were to take my route, my preferred route. So, 907 00:48:25.719 --> 00:48:28.610 you know, you're impugning, or not impugning, you're imbuing kind 908 00:48:28.650 --> 00:48:32.670 of an ideology of just in your original analysis there. 909 00:48:33.480 --> 00:48:38.119 about economics and about white identity politics. But I actually think, 910 00:48:38.380 --> 00:48:41.139 and I would take it further, is it's actually worse. 911 00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:44.780 It's really just about Trump. And I think it really 912 00:48:44.820 --> 00:48:47.909 took the Iran war to fully kick that in for me, 913 00:48:48.469 --> 00:48:52.510 is that the voters fundamentally, they just really like Trump. 914 00:48:53.070 --> 00:48:56.309 And it's actually not as much about policy or any 915 00:48:56.329 --> 00:48:59.130 of the things that you might type of think. I 916 00:48:59.389 --> 00:49:02.510 really hit home for me. When I talk to some 917 00:49:02.530 --> 00:49:05.360 of these people still all on board the Trump train, 918 00:49:05.780 --> 00:49:08.179 especially the older voters, they really just love how he 919 00:49:08.199 --> 00:49:10.619 drives people like you crazy. And that's actually just all 920 00:49:10.659 --> 00:49:10.880 it is. 921 00:49:10.900 --> 00:49:15.989 That may be the saddest thing I've ever heard. 922 00:49:16.449 --> 00:49:18.980 But it's true. It is kind of empirically true. is 923 00:49:19.039 --> 00:49:22.519 what you see is like liberal cultural rejection of Trump. 924 00:49:22.880 --> 00:49:23.960 He hates the right people. 925 00:49:24.159 --> 00:49:27.440 Or no, he's hated by the right people. That's actually 926 00:49:27.460 --> 00:49:27.960 what it's about. 927 00:49:28.019 --> 00:49:28.280 All right. 928 00:49:28.380 --> 00:49:30.880 And so that's the truth, I think, at the beating 929 00:49:30.940 --> 00:49:33.219 heart of a lot of the remaining MAGA coalition. 930 00:49:33.239 --> 00:49:36.360 So if we start to like him, they'll abandon him? 931 00:49:36.570 --> 00:49:39.369 I don't know about that. The damage has probably been done, 932 00:49:39.510 --> 00:49:42.230 but I don't know if they would cling- necessarily as 933 00:49:42.250 --> 00:49:45.130 hard as you think. But this is where, though, to 934 00:49:45.190 --> 00:49:48.349 kind of break my own analysis, the one thing that 935 00:49:48.389 --> 00:49:53.079 does appear to quote unquote Trump that is the economic situation, 936 00:49:53.420 --> 00:49:55.659 which is a validation, I think, of the economic framework 937 00:49:55.699 --> 00:49:58.159 of what you're talking about. For the very first time, 938 00:49:58.659 --> 00:50:01.349 we see Trump's net approval rating or approval rating with 939 00:50:01.389 --> 00:50:04.409 Republicans on the economy as began to dip down as 940 00:50:04.449 --> 00:50:06.829 a result, both of the way that the tariffs were 941 00:50:06.869 --> 00:50:09.940 handled and because of the Iran war and $ 4 gasoline. 942 00:50:10.199 --> 00:50:13.079 That is beginning to pierce what I would say is 943 00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:15.639 the cultural veneer. And it already has, you know, definitely 944 00:50:15.960 --> 00:50:17.780 for a lot of, let's say, the younger men or 945 00:50:17.840 --> 00:50:20.800 voters who went along with Trump in 2024. 946 00:50:20.800 --> 00:50:24.469 But I'd rather talk about the designers of this program 947 00:50:25.170 --> 00:50:29.050 than those that have to live through it. I think 948 00:50:29.090 --> 00:50:34.710 I'm talking more about the designers, that the project 2025 949 00:50:34.940 --> 00:50:41.789 designers there is a christian nationalist bent to it that 950 00:50:42.010 --> 00:50:46.449 i think is the driving force of it and everything 951 00:50:46.610 -->

00:50:51.889 else is strategic and intentional about how do we get 952 00:50:51.949 --> 00:50:55.989 there how do we get to the power how do 953 00:50:56.030 --> 00:51:00.929 we get to control everything when our ultimate goal is that. 954 00:51:01.670 --> 00:51:04.260 So I actually see, I think it's much more economic. 955 00:51:04.880 --> 00:51:08.139 And even Project 2025 itself is kind of a complicated story, right? 956 00:51:08.179 --> 00:51:11.559 Because Project 2025 was written by the Heritage Foundation. It 957 00:51:11.579 --> 00:51:15.050 was explicitly disavowed by Donald Trump. on the campaign trail 958 00:51:15.119 --> 00:51:16.449 who was like, I have nothing to do. 959 00:51:16.550 --> 00:51:17.150 Oh, oh. 960 00:51:17.369 --> 00:51:18.750 No, I'm not saying it was real. 961 00:51:18.889 --> 00:51:19.510 Come on, man. 962 00:51:19.730 --> 00:51:22.750 I'm saying he did devout it, correct? Like he did. 963 00:51:22.909 --> 00:51:26.690 But cynically. Yeah. He didn't disavow it. He gave it 964 00:51:26.789 --> 00:51:30.590 plausible deniability as he does it. That's my point. Okay. 965 00:51:30.710 --> 00:51:34.449 Is when you act like, wow, this Iran thing really 966 00:51:34.550 --> 00:51:38.610 caught me off guard. And then you tell me with earnestness, 967 00:51:39.090 --> 00:51:41.150 oh no, he disavowed 2025. He did nothing of the 968 00:51:41.170 --> 00:51:45.210 kind he in no way wanted to deal with the 969 00:51:45.289 --> 00:51:50.349 particulars of it because he knew how politically damaging it was. Right. No, no. 970 00:51:50.409 --> 00:51:52.710 I'm actually, I was about to get there. So I 971 00:51:52.710 --> 00:51:56.090 was saying he disavowed it only then to hire many 972 00:51:56.110 --> 00:51:59.380 of the people who were signatories of Project 2025. So 973 00:51:59.679 --> 00:52:03.019 there wasn't an acknowledgement going into the campaign that this 974 00:52:03.099 --> 00:52:06.400 is politically damaging, this type of product, the Heritage Foundation, 975 00:52:06.449 --> 00:52:09.269 et cetera. But then that became the general policy, at 976 00:52:09.309 --> 00:52:11.719 least in some areas. It's been kind of complicated because 977 00:52:11.780 --> 00:52:14.300 a lot of it is just Trump himself deciding what 978 00:52:14.320 --> 00:52:16.880 the tariff rate on China should be whenever he wakes 979 00:52:16.920 --> 00:52:18.719 up in the morning. I'm not joking. That's actually how 980 00:52:18.739 --> 00:52:19.039 it works. 981 00:52:19.639 --> 00:52:22.019 I liked when he did, he didn't like a conversation 982 00:52:22.059 --> 00:52:26.340 he had in Switzerland and he was like 50% on chocolate. Right. Yeah. 983 00:52:26.340 --> 00:52:28.699 50% on chocolate and watches for the watch community. That 984 00:52:28.739 --> 00:52:32.860 was devastating as a member of that. So like when 985 00:52:32.880 --> 00:52:35.619 we talk about the designers, I don't know if it's 986 00:52:35.679 --> 00:52:38.559 as intentional though, as you say, I do think all 987 00:52:38.619 --> 00:52:44.469 political coalitions have people who are insider organizations in Washington 988 00:52:44.489 --> 00:52:46.429 who are jockeying for power. That's literally the job of 989 00:52:46.449 --> 00:52:50.349 the Heritage Foundation or of these neoconservative think tanks. So 990 00:52:50.369 --> 00:52:52.329 you're saying what you're talking about, how you think the 991 00:52:52.369 --> 00:52:55.150 Iran war came out of nowhere, that's kind of a 992 00:52:55.420 --> 00:52:58.320 foolish thought. But it's just really hard for somebody who 993 00:52:58.679 --> 00:53:01.800 lives in the town, knows some of the most senior 994 00:53:01.820 --> 00:53:04.539 appointees or some of the people who were there, who 995 00:53:04.579 --> 00:53:08.250 in private and in public are spoke against war with Iran, 996 00:53:08.289 --> 00:53:10.599 made good cases against war with Iran, why we should 997 00:53:10.619 --> 00:53:13.539 disengage from the Middle East. To say that that was 998 00:53:13.679 --> 00:53:18.119 disingenuous the whole time, I'm still just having a hard 999 00:53:18.179 --> 00:53:18.539 time with it. 1000 00:53:18.539 --> 00:53:21.829 No, what I'm saying is not that it was disingenuous. 1001 00:53:22.269 --> 00:53:25.769 And I'll ask you this, Crystal. The idea wasn't that 1002 00:53:25.849 --> 00:53:29.309 they really didn't believe they would go into Iran. My 1003 00:53:29.389 --> 00:53:33.750 point is that all these other policy decisions... that have 1004 00:53:33.789 --> 00:53:36.630 gone along with the intentional design of moving us more 1005 00:53:36.690 --> 00:53:45.019 towards this intentional heritage American version, non-credal America of a 1006 00:53:45.099 --> 00:53:48.679 people who belong here more than other people, who are 1007 00:53:48.780 --> 00:53:53.659 more American than other people, real America. That's all been 1008 00:53:53.760 --> 00:54:01.409 driven by a very intentional planning group that is trying 1009 00:54:01.469 --> 00:54:05.389 to figure out ways to maximize their power, and in 1010 00:54:05.550 --> 00:54:11.639 doing so, have created this group that is manufacturing a 1011 00:54:11.739 --> 00:54:15.199 reality to get them to do that. Now, the Iran war, 1012 00:54:15.239 --> 00:54:18.199 whether it fits into that framing or not, that's the 1013 00:54:18.260 --> 00:54:22.079 reality of it. It's a cynical manipulation to get to 1014 00:54:22.119 --> 00:54:26.289 a certain goal. And my problem is, and Crystal, I'm 1015 00:54:26.309 --> 00:54:30.730 going to ask you this, Is it your problem as 1016 00:54:30.789 --> 00:54:33.650 well that you look at this sudden, like, I can't 1017 00:54:33.710 --> 00:54:37.539 believe the tiger ate my face when the rest of 1018 00:54:37.619 --> 00:54:42.500 us have been faced with this cynical manipulation of policy 1019 00:54:42.559 --> 00:54:46.059 the whole time? Yeah. Whether it got them the results

1020 00:54:46.099 --> 00:54:48.789 they wanted on immigration, but not the result they wanted 1021 00:54:48.829 --> 00:54:48.989 on Iran. 1022 00:54:50.530 --> 00:54:53.150 Yeah. I mean, at the risk of getting up on soccer, 1023 00:54:53.190 --> 00:54:53.989 I feel very. 1024 00:54:54.010 --> 00:54:56.210 And by the way, and then we'll talk about how 1025 00:54:56.230 --> 00:54:56.889 the left sucks. 1026 00:54:57.130 --> 00:54:59.829 So, OK, we'll do that in a moment. But no, 1027 00:54:59.909 --> 00:55:02.469 I mean, look, I look at the track record from 1028 00:55:02.510 --> 00:55:06.000 Trump 1.0. I look at J.D. Vance's speech, to your point, 1029 00:55:06.099 --> 00:55:10.320 about the like heritage American Christian nationalist vision for the country. 1030 00:55:10.659 --> 00:55:13.880 His speech at the RNC where he laid down an 1031 00:55:13.940 --> 00:55:17.519 explicitly blood and soil consumption conception said that. America is 1032 00:55:17.579 --> 00:55:21.300 not an idea. And then you look at Stephen Miller, 1033 00:55:21.510 --> 00:55:23.489 who is so powerful that he's been called the prime 1034 00:55:23.530 --> 00:55:27.309 minister within the administration. And this guy is a diehard 1035 00:55:27.489 --> 00:55:31.630 ideologue who loves to Nazi post on Maine. You know, 1036 00:55:31.730 --> 00:55:35.949 there is no doubt what his priorities are. And so far, 1037 00:55:36.369 --> 00:55:38.929 as Trump even has said, like, oh, this guy would 1038 00:55:38.949 --> 00:55:40.690 like there to just be 100 million people in the 1039 00:55:40.730 --> 00:55:42.590 country that all look like him. So it's not a 1040 00:55:42.630 --> 00:55:45.690 secret what his priorities are. And he's been given a 1041 00:55:45.809 --> 00:55:49.289 free hand. in order to execute that sort of policy. 1042 00:55:49.570 --> 00:55:51.150 So I think you have that strain. And then I 1043 00:55:51.190 --> 00:55:54.750 think you have a Trump is just the most self-dealing 1044 00:55:54.829 --> 00:55:59.519 corrupt person on the entire planet, who also has Kushner 1045 00:55:59.679 --> 00:56:03.159 and Witkoff and these other characters who are also focused 1046 00:56:03.360 --> 00:56:07.440 on looting and self-dealing as the other primary impetus within 1047 00:56:07.480 --> 00:56:09.679 the administration. And I think when you put all of 1048 00:56:09.739 --> 00:56:12.940 that together, and also Trump's desire to be this big 1049 00:56:13.000 --> 00:56:17.019 man in history, and he wants this world-changing legacy, whether 1050 00:56:17.059 --> 00:56:18.840 that is for good or for ill. I think that's 1051 00:56:18.880 --> 00:56:22.030 part of what explains the Iran war in particular. But 1052 00:56:22.070 --> 00:56:25.849 when you put the ideologues together with the self-dealing together 1053 00:56:25.909 --> 00:56:29.070 with the total lack of any guardrails on this train 1054 00:56:29.110 --> 00:56:32.190 at this point, that's how you end up with this situation. 1055 00:56:32.269 --> 00:56:34.050 And yes, to your point, I mean, not only was 1056 00:56:34.150 --> 00:56:36.130 it predictable, it was predicted. 1057 00:56:42.929 --> 00:56:45.300 Mint Mobile. And it's important that you throw in the 1058 00:56:45.360 --> 00:56:49.239 mobile there. There's Mint. We all know what that's about. 1059 00:56:49.860 --> 00:56:53.739 But Mint Mobile, what we're talking about here is a 1060 00:56:53.840 --> 00:56:59.630 phone company that's delivering you their product for less than 1061 00:56:59.670 --> 00:57:02.090 what other phone companies are doing. I don't know what 1062 00:57:02.130 --> 00:57:04.170 you want out of a phone company. What I want 1063 00:57:04.210 --> 00:57:06.130 out of a phone company is deliver me a good 1064 00:57:06.210 --> 00:57:10.780 product for less and don't bother me. Mint Mobile plan, 1065 00:57:10.780 --> 00:57:18.059 15 bucks a month, 15 bucks. A month. What is it? 1066 00:57:18.059 --> 00:57:18.519 1992? 1067 00:57:18.519 --> 00:57:21.480 15 bucks a month. High-speed data, unlimited talk and text 1068 00:57:21.500 --> 00:57:24.460 delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You want to 1069 00:57:24.500 --> 00:57:26.869 bring your current phone and your current number? Do it. 1070 00:57:28.889 --> 00:57:31.730 Get rid of your overpriced wireless with Mint Mobile. It's 1071 00:57:31.789 --> 00:57:35.510 not diabolical. It's just good value. Get your new wireless 1072 00:57:35.550 --> 00:57:37.789 plan for just 15 bucks a month. Go to mintmobile.com 1073 00:57:37.809 --> 00:57:43.739 slash TWS. That's mintmobile.com slash TWS. Get your wireless bill 1074 00:57:43.760 --> 00:57:49.699 to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com slash TWS. That's it. 1075 00:57:50.280 --> 00:57:53.800 There's no catch. Upfront payments of $ 45 for three months, 1076 00:57:53.800 --> 00:57:58.449 $ 90 for six months, or $ 180 for 12 months. Plan required. 1077 00:57:58.449 --> 00:58:01.269 $ 15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan 1078 00:58:01.289 --> 00:58:04.250 term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes. May slow when network 1079 00:58:04.289 --> 00:58:09.699 is busy. Includes up to 20 gigabyte hotspot. Capable device required. Availability, speed, 1080 00:58:09.800 --> 00:58:14.690 and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com. I really hope they speed 1081 00:58:14.750 --> 00:58:22.550 that up. So given all that, and I think that's 1082 00:58:22.969 --> 00:58:26.739 a summation that I would not disagree with, why is 1083 00:58:26.820 --> 00:58:29.860 it that the Democrats are having such a difficult time? 1084 00:58:30.420 --> 00:58:33.139 They don't control anything. They don't control the Senate. They 1085 00:58:33.159 --> 00:58:35.219 don't control the Congress. They don't control the court. They 1086 00:58:35.239 --> 00:58:39.050 don't control the White House. So what is it about 1087 00:58:39.139 --> 00:58:44.260 the way that Democrats have governed that has allowed this, 1088

00:58:45.320 --> 00:58:49.300 in my mind, cynical and corrupt experiment to take such hold. 1089 00:58:49.780 --> 00:58:53.880 And when will accountability come for that? Because I don't 1090 00:58:53.940 --> 00:58:56.590 think that Trump arose for no reason. 1091 00:58:56.739 --> 00:58:57.030 Agreed. 1092 00:58:57.119 --> 00:59:01.309 I think people were dissatisfied with a government that did 1093 00:59:01.369 --> 00:59:04.170 not seem to be responsive to the needs of the 1094 00:59:04.230 --> 00:59:05.989 people and was at a remove. 1095 00:59:07.030 --> 00:59:09.730 Yes, I agree. And I think what we've seen at 1096 00:59:09.769 --> 00:59:14.820 this point is a sort of limp status quo decorum 1097 00:59:14.909 --> 00:59:18.690 obsessed liberalism. is not going to be sufficient to fight 1098 00:59:18.750 --> 00:59:21.429 what I see as rising forces of fascism in the country. 1099 00:59:21.489 --> 00:59:23.710 They weren't historically. You know, when we had a previous 1100 00:59:24.170 --> 00:59:27.090 rise of a fascist movement in this country, it took FDR, 1101 00:59:27.130 --> 00:59:29.480 it took the New Deal coalition, a sort of experiment 1102 00:59:29.500 --> 00:59:31.940 in social democracy here in the U.S. 1103 00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:38.300 Forget about rising fascism, though. How about just like rural broadband? Like, 1104 00:59:38.400 --> 00:59:40.400 I'm not even talking about a party that is not 1105 00:59:40.539 --> 00:59:44.070 up to the task of fighting the Nazis. I'm talking 1106 00:59:44.119 --> 00:59:46.269 about a party that is not up to the task 1107 00:59:47.110 --> 00:59:53.449 Of competently governing and easing the difficulties that people are 1108 00:59:53.469 --> 00:59:56.030 facing in their day-to-day lives, not being responsive to their needs. 1109 00:59:57.219 --> 00:59:58.219 See, I would pick up on that. 1110 00:59:58.300 --> 01:00:03.199 Not only not responsive to their needs, but actively gaslighting 1111 01:00:03.239 --> 01:00:06.019 them about their needs. I mean, we could go back 1112 01:00:06.119 --> 01:00:10.130 to the financial crisis and the response to that, which 1113 01:00:10.210 --> 01:00:14.469 was too little, where there was zero accountability to Wall 1114 01:00:14.489 --> 01:00:19.550 Street criminals. where homeowners were completely screwed. And you can 1115 01:00:19.630 --> 01:00:23.809 see the seeds of that dissatisfaction. And now we've got 1116 01:00:23.949 --> 01:00:27.000 two generations, millennials and Zoomers, and soon it'll be Gen 1117 01:00:27.059 --> 01:00:29.139 Alpha as well, who are being shut down of the 1118 01:00:29.199 --> 01:00:32.929 American dream, who can't aspire to buy a house. who 1119 01:00:33.010 --> 01:00:34.969 see education costs, you know, they're told to go get 1120 01:00:34.989 --> 01:00:37.809 a college degree. That college degree is wildly expensive. They're 1121 01:00:37.829 --> 01:00:39.489 saddled with debt and then they can't get a good 1122 01:00:39.510

--> 01:00:41.789 job out of it. A bunch of AI oligarchs are 1123 01:00:41.809 --> 01:00:44.269 telling them they're going to take their jobs anyway. And 1124 01:00:44.289 --> 01:00:48.590 there has been a wildly insufficient at best response from 1125 01:00:48.670 --> 01:00:52.510 the Democratic Party establishment who have been more interested in 1126 01:00:52.590 --> 01:00:55.869 palliative care for America and the working class of America 1127 01:00:55.909 --> 01:00:57.530 in particular than Wait. 1128 01:00:57.550 --> 01:01:00.349 They put us in hospice? 1129 01:01:00.510 --> 01:01:03.659 Pretty much, and governing effectively. And so, you know, one 1130 01:01:03.679 --> 01:01:06.760 of the things that we've seen in the small pilot 1131 01:01:06.800 --> 01:01:10.030 experiment of Zoran Mamdani in New York City, where, look, 1132 01:01:10.070 --> 01:01:11.949 you're the mayor of a city, it's a big city, 1133 01:01:11.989 --> 01:01:14.429 but you've got limited powers. is I do think you 1134 01:01:14.489 --> 01:01:17.070 see a different approach to governance where there's a real 1135 01:01:17.130 --> 01:01:19.420 commitment to, no, we're going to make promises. We're going 1136 01:01:19.440 --> 01:01:21.579 to deliver on those promises. People are going to feel 1137 01:01:21.619 --> 01:01:24.000 the impact of government in a positive way. I'm sure 1138 01:01:24.019 --> 01:01:26.340 you probably saw the story. Someone posted a picture of 1139 01:01:26.380 --> 01:01:28.659 a pothole on, I think it was Instagram. And by 1140 01:01:28.679 --> 01:01:30.199 the end of the day, he had come and filled 1141 01:01:30.239 --> 01:01:33.550 that pothole. It's something small, but it makes people feel like, oh, 1142 01:01:34.010 --> 01:01:37.070 the tax dollars that I'm paying, the government that I elected, 1143 01:01:37.489 --> 01:01:39.869 they actually are trying to make my life better in 1144 01:01:39.889 --> 01:01:42.829 a way that materially improves my quality of life. And 1145 01:01:42.889 --> 01:01:46.159 Democrats have become completely divorced from that. And then, you know, 1146 01:01:46.179 --> 01:01:47.940 the other part of this, of course, hangs over all 1147 01:01:47.960 --> 01:01:49.739 of it is money and politics. And this is really 1148 01:01:49.780 --> 01:01:52.039 the root cause of so much of it, where they 1149 01:01:52.219 --> 01:01:56.429 are beholden to corporations. They're beholden to special interests, whether 1150 01:01:56.510 --> 01:02:00.050 it's APAC or big tech, et cetera, that keeps them 1151 01:02:00.250 --> 01:02:02.829 at odds with the needs and the desires of the 1152 01:02:02.869 --> 01:02:05.269 American people. And so that's why I've been so heartened 1153 01:02:05.469 --> 01:02:08.260 to see this reckoning that is happening between the Democratic 1154 01:02:08.340 --> 01:02:10.739 base and the Democratic establishment in the party. 1155 01:02:11.570 --> 01:02:15.809 Sagar, how do you see the left now? Do you 1156 01:02:15.869 --> 01:02:17.929 buy into the framing? There's a lot of talk about 1157 01:02:18.610 --> 01:02:22.239 now they're socialists, and very rarely does anyone ever talk 1158 01:02:22.300 --> 01:02:26.739 about what socialism is. It's just a word, and no 1159 01:02:26.800 --> 01:02:30.980 one really describes in terms of specific policy what's socialist 1160 01:02:32.239 --> 01:02:35.280 about it. How do you see the left? What would 1161 01:02:35.320 --> 01:02:41.039 be your greatest criticism of them, and what would be 1162 01:02:41.980 --> 01:02:45.760 you're fixed to that? How could you see them recovering 1163 01:02:45.800 --> 01:02:46.099 from that? 1164 01:02:46.280 --> 01:02:48.780 So, I mean, look, I do not speak for the right. 1165 01:02:49.019 --> 01:02:51.480 So I'm a very unique person. I don't really care 1166 01:02:51.519 --> 01:02:53.800 about Hassan Piker. I did an event with him. He 1167 01:02:53.840 --> 01:02:56.280 was fine. We were perfectly cordial. I actually think he's 1168 01:02:56.480 --> 01:02:59.019 not nearly as radical as a lot of people think 1169 01:02:59.059 --> 01:03:01.119 that he is. And so I don't know if I'm 1170 01:03:01.139 --> 01:03:04.360 the best person to answer, but from my perspective, here's 1171 01:03:04.380 --> 01:03:07.630 what I would say, is that fundamentally- What I think, 1172 01:03:07.670 --> 01:03:09.710 you know, you guys talked about, you know, there's been 1173 01:03:09.730 --> 01:03:11.449 a lot of like, oh, cultural issues and all of 1174 01:03:11.469 --> 01:03:14.090 that are nonsense. At the end of the day, there's 1175 01:03:14.130 --> 01:03:19.289 only one movement in recent history that won households under $ 100, 000. 1176 01:03:18.650 --> 01:03:22.090 That was Donald Trump in the 2024 campaign, which he 1177 01:03:22.110 --> 01:03:26.250 won the popular vote. The DSA and leftists is predominantly 1178 01:03:26.269 --> 01:03:30.489 a coalition of downwardly mobile white liberals. A lot of 1179 01:03:30.630 --> 01:03:33.250 people who don't have a four-year college degree find the 1180 01:03:33.309 --> 01:03:36.190 movement distasteful or distrust. And we saw that just what 1181 01:03:36.210 --> 01:03:40.110 happened in the Abdul El-Sayed campaign in the primary election 1182 01:03:40.190 --> 01:03:44.250 where you had older black voters or traditional political constituency 1183 01:03:44.630 --> 01:03:47.269 and households that don't have four-year college did not vote 1184 01:03:47.289 --> 01:03:49.130 for him. So a lot of. 1185 01:03:49.130 --> 01:03:51.929 This- Still vote. I mean, that was a democratic primary, 1186 01:03:51.969 --> 01:03:52.469 but go ahead. 1187 01:03:52.730 --> 01:03:55.869 Right, but that's emblematic also in the general election results 1188 01:03:55.889 --> 01:03:58.710 of 2024. So if we try to transpose those two things, 1189 01:03:58.889 --> 01:04:01.570 the most likely predictor of what your politics are in 1190 01:04:01.590 --> 01:04:04.320

this country is whether you have four-year college degree or not. 1191 01:04:05.159 --> 01:04:08.050 And if for your college degree is also correlated highly 1192 01:04:08.090 --> 01:04:12.530 with income, the Democratic Party, while may having economic positions 1193 01:04:12.849 --> 01:04:16.210 that supposedly benefit the working class, is not convinced the 1194 01:04:16.250 --> 01:04:19.800 working class. Yes, that's just empirically true. And so that's 1195 01:04:19.860 --> 01:04:23.260 kind of like my criticism, if you will, if it's, 1196 01:04:23.659 --> 01:04:25.619 you know, Crystal gave her speech, so I'll give my 1197 01:04:25.659 --> 01:04:28.619 worst case scenario. you know, my worst faith interpretation would 1198 01:04:28.659 --> 01:04:32.679 be it's class cosplay. I mean, fundamentally it is, um, 1199 01:04:33.119 --> 01:04:37.650 cosplay of dressing up, you know, said, you know, basically 1200 01:04:37.750 --> 01:04:40.769 woke one type policy and or rhetoric. 1201 01:04:40.349 --> 01:04:43.690 To explain that what is, yeah, this is a whole thing, right? 1202 01:04:43.710 --> 01:04:46.070 I mean, also let, let, let's be fair. Like, I mean, 1203 01:04:46.250 --> 01:04:47.989 Trump is the one who puts on the apron and 1204 01:04:48.030 --> 01:04:51.019 sits in the McDonald's wing. Like, talk about cosplay. Like, 1205 01:04:51.059 --> 01:04:52.260 you know, how many times can you hear? 1206 01:04:52.320 --> 01:04:53.880 Depends what type of cosplay we're cosplaying. 1207 01:04:53.900 --> 01:04:55.800 He's a blue collar billionaire. And you're like, yeah, I 1208 01:04:55.820 --> 01:04:56.519 don't think that's a thing. 1209 01:04:56.539 --> 01:05:00.030 He's cosplaying Norman Rockwell America, obviously, which is, you know, 1210 01:05:00.510 --> 01:05:01.190 highly effective. 1211 01:05:01.369 --> 01:05:01.630 All right. 1212 01:05:01.670 --> 01:05:03.170 So you have to grapple with that if you want 1213 01:05:03.190 --> 01:05:07.030 to win in America's in an American politics today. And so. 1214 01:05:07.710 --> 01:05:07.909 Yeah. 1215 01:05:07.989 --> 01:05:09.630 I mean, I think, and we're talking to the whole 1216 01:05:09.650 --> 01:05:10.730 woke one debate. 1217 01:05:11.389 --> 01:05:13.550 Yeah. Tell me what you mean by that, because I'm not. 1218 01:05:13.489 --> 01:05:16.909 Sure I understand. AOC recently went on television and she said, quote, 1219 01:05:16.949 --> 01:05:19.269 woke one was crazy. And it was in relation to 1220 01:05:19.349 --> 01:05:22.519 Francesca Hong, who's a DSA candidate who is very likely 1221 01:05:22.579 --> 01:05:25.579 to win, I think tonight was primary in Wisconsin in 1222 01:05:25.599 --> 01:05:28.599 the gubernatorial election in which I don't have the exact 1223 01:05:28.639 --> 01:05:30.880 tweet in front of me had said something along the 1224 01:05:30.920 --> 01:05:34.190 lines of critical of Thanksgiving and She gives an interview 1225 01:05:34.550 --> 01:05:37.110 in which they said, so do you want to cancel Thanksgiving? 1226 01:05:37.429 --> 01:05:40.590 And gives a word salad level of an answer. Okay. 1227 01:05:40.869 --> 01:05:43.730 Might seem nonsensical. John, you and I both know that 1228 01:05:43.769 --> 01:05:46.429 in this country, that is not exactly how you're going 1229 01:05:46.449 --> 01:05:49.489 to appeal, quote unquote, to the very working class that 1230 01:05:49.530 --> 01:05:50.510 we're talking about here. 1231 01:05:50.590 --> 01:05:51.429 My favorite holiday. 1232 01:05:51.489 --> 01:05:51.679 Yeah. 1233 01:05:51.760 --> 01:05:55.139 It's most people's favorite holiday. It's most normal people's favorite holiday. 1234 01:05:55.219 --> 01:05:59.059 And so that comes across as deeply disconnected and obsessed 1235 01:05:59.179 --> 01:06:01.989 with you know, what some activist is either going to 1236 01:06:02.050 --> 01:06:05.829 say towards you or your genuine belief that Thanksgiving or 1237 01:06:06.010 --> 01:06:08.269 just like white society, which she's also talked a lot 1238 01:06:08.289 --> 01:06:11.969 about her own like biracial son and potentially being ashamed 1239 01:06:11.989 --> 01:06:15.329 of that, like that is deeply off-putting, I think, to 1240 01:06:15.510 --> 01:06:18.150 a lot of people. And so that is where like 1241 01:06:18.210 --> 01:06:20.349 to the extent that I have a critique, I guess, 1242 01:06:20.530 --> 01:06:23.489 is they're saying, oh, woke one was crazy. And it's like, no, 1243 01:06:23.510 --> 01:06:25.530 but you still believe many of the things that woke 1244 01:06:25.679 --> 01:06:26.760 one consisted of. 1245 01:06:27.050 --> 01:06:29.389 She's still saying that now? No, no, no. 1246 01:06:29.489 --> 01:06:32.949 What I'm saying is AOC had said Woke One was crazy. 1247 01:06:33.130 --> 01:06:35.190 As in the rhetoric that we use, there was an 1248 01:06:35.349 --> 01:06:36.130 Overton window. 1249 01:06:36.670 --> 01:06:38.309 Oh, okay. All right. I see what you're saying. 1250 01:06:38.349 --> 01:06:40.659 And she made it clear that much of the rhetoric 1251 01:06:40.739 --> 01:06:44.639 that was used from 2020 was bad, right? And I'm like, okay, 1252 01:06:44.679 --> 01:06:47.699 that's fine. But- you know, kind of, John, as you're saying, 1253 01:06:48.099 --> 01:06:51.280 if the rhetoric was bad, well, what about the idea? Like, 1254 01:06:51.300 --> 01:06:54.280 do you still believe like in defund the police? Zoran 1255 01:06:54.449 --> 01:06:57.309 had explicitly apologized to the cops and said, no, I'm 1256 01:06:57.349 --> 01:06:58.130 sorry I said that. 1257 01:06:58.469 --> 01:06:58.670 Right. 1258 01:06:58.730 --> 01:07:00.969 And so, OK, that's fine, you know, for people like me. 1259 01:07:01.170 --> 01:07:03.329 But isn't on the flip side of that, isn't going 1260 01:07:03.369 --> 01:07:06.789 through people's old tweets, isn't that what the right hated about? 1261 01:07:06.829 --> 01:07:07.690 Absolutely fair. 1262 01:07:08.070 -->

01:07:08.349 Fair. 1263 01:07:08.449 --> 01:07:10.900 You're right. It's part of cancel culture. And it has 1264 01:07:10.940 --> 01:07:15.000 the right Embrace cancel culture, yes, especially whenever it comes 1265 01:07:15.019 --> 01:07:17.550 to anti-Semitism and all of this. 1266 01:07:17.800 --> 01:07:18.469 Or Bud Light. 1267 01:07:18.570 --> 01:07:19.449 Or Bud Light, sure. 1268 01:07:19.469 --> 01:07:22.929 But yeah, I get what you're saying. Is so much 1269 01:07:23.050 --> 01:07:28.170 of woke now or cancel culture or anything also just 1270 01:07:28.789 --> 01:07:35.590 the ubiquity of social media, meaning we've democratized criticism. So 1271 01:07:35.829 --> 01:07:40.530 social media makes its money on outrage, conflict, all those things. 1272 01:07:42.039 --> 01:07:47.380 different things, isn't it just a reflection of there is 1273 01:07:47.440 --> 01:07:51.300 no such thing as a non-cancel culture because everything that 1274 01:07:51.340 --> 01:07:55.989 you say, somebody will try and seek advantage of it 1275 01:07:56.550 --> 01:08:00.909 and highlight it and amplify it to help them do that. 1276 01:08:00.969 --> 01:08:01.349 Certainly. 1277 01:08:01.489 --> 01:08:06.210 And I also don't understand how, you know, the idea that, well, 1278 01:08:06.349 --> 01:08:09.460 she said Thanksgiving should be canceled, so she's crazy, but 1279 01:08:09.679 --> 01:08:13.239 he said Trump won the 2020 election. That's fine. 1280 01:08:13.440 --> 01:08:13.639 Right. 1281 01:08:13.800 --> 01:08:15.019 We're all just going to go along with it. 1282 01:08:15.019 --> 01:08:16.720 Is it fine, though? Well, no, but I'm saying I 1283 01:08:16.760 --> 01:08:19.619 think I think people who say that get plenty of criticism, though. 1284 01:08:19.699 --> 01:08:21.340 I don't think it's fine. I don't think that's true. 1285 01:08:21.380 --> 01:08:24.079 But they get criticism, but there's no accountability. It's not 1286 01:08:24.119 --> 01:08:26.979 like they don't still get confirmed by the Senate. OK, 1287 01:08:27.039 --> 01:08:29.090 it's not that they get. They can sit in a 1288 01:08:29.170 --> 01:08:29.989 confirmation here. 1289 01:08:30.010 --> 01:08:33.649 For example, Mike Rogers is an election denier. And I 1290 01:08:33.829 --> 01:08:35.729 haven't seen all the hand-wringing about like, oh, my God, 1291 01:08:35.770 --> 01:08:37.890 is he going to be able to win and win 1292 01:08:37.909 --> 01:08:40.510 over moderate voters because he's such an extremist on this? 1293 01:08:40.729 --> 01:08:43.069 See, I'm not sure that's true. I see that story 1294 01:08:43.130 --> 01:08:43.930 like two days ago. 1295 01:08:43.949 --> 01:08:46.850 What I've heard is all about how extreme Abdul is because, oh, 1296 01:08:46.880 --> 01:08:49.380 my God, he hung out with Hassan Piker. How dare he? 1297 01:08:49.880 --> 01:08:54.000 versus Mike Rogers, who actually holds these views himself and 1298 01:08:54.140 --> 01:08:57.090 has expressed them multiple

times, that's not framed as being 1299 01:08:57.170 --> 01:08:59.649 too extreme for a moderate voter. 1300 01:08:59.750 --> 01:09:02.930 But I'm sure he doesn't actually hold those views. Again, 1301 01:09:02.949 --> 01:09:06.239 it's cynical. He doesn't actually hold them. I'm sure he's 1302 01:09:06.260 --> 01:09:07.100 not an idiot. Right. 1303 01:09:07.199 --> 01:09:08.850 But it doesn't really matter at the end of the 1304 01:09:08.890 --> 01:09:11.310 day whether he believes it in his heart of hearts 1305 01:09:11.710 --> 01:09:14.210 or whether it's a cynical posture. He's going to act 1306 01:09:14.250 --> 01:09:16.250 and behave in the same way because he's going to 1307 01:09:16.289 --> 01:09:18.869 be a rubber stamp for Donald Trump at the end 1308 01:09:18.890 --> 01:09:21.729 of the day. So, no, I think woke is, you know, 1309 01:09:21.750 --> 01:09:24.760 and especially the current iteration of woke coming from the 1310 01:09:24.779 --> 01:09:25.439 Trump administration. 1311 01:09:25.479 --> 01:09:28.539 Now, what's the current? So what's if that's woke point one, 1312 01:09:28.560 --> 01:09:29.380 what's woke point two? 1313 01:09:29.920 --> 01:09:32.220 Well, that's, I think, up for debate. But currently we're 1314 01:09:32.260 --> 01:09:35.979 living through a Trump regime that wants to crush any 1315 01:09:36.039 --> 01:09:38.859 sort of dissent. The place where they've come down the 1316 01:09:38.899 --> 01:09:41.539 hardest is on any sort of criticism of Israel, which 1317 01:09:41.579 --> 01:09:44.560 is characterized as being anti-Semitic. And they've used it as 1318 01:09:44.600 --> 01:09:49.890 an excuse to jail, to crush protests, to deport. And 1319 01:09:50.270 --> 01:09:54.369 as part of their NSPM 7 project, they also use 1320 01:09:54.409 --> 01:09:57.590 that to label you as effectively a terrorist and subject 1321 01:09:57.630 --> 01:10:01.149 to potential government action and surveillance. So it goes far 1322 01:10:01.189 --> 01:10:05.640 beyond some like social media cancellation campaign at this point. 1323 01:10:06.039 --> 01:10:09.220 And I think really does expose how at its core, 1324 01:10:09.359 --> 01:10:13.420 this is really about controlling the bounds of debate, about 1325 01:10:13.859 --> 01:10:18.920 scaring people into compliance, you know, against an unpopular policy 1326 01:10:19.319 --> 01:10:21.880 and about maintaining power. So I think that's the way 1327 01:10:21.899 --> 01:10:23.520 that it's really been deployed by Trump. 1328 01:10:23.560 --> 01:10:25.529 Does that sound like woke 2.0 to you, Sagar? 1329 01:10:25.689 --> 01:10:30.859 It's this is the difficulty. I accept Crystal's entire critique 1330 01:10:31.100 --> 01:10:35.579 as that is the definition of woke. I've described the anti-Semitism, 1331 01:10:36.119 --> 01:10:39.760 you know, freak out in the administration as like Ibrahim X. 1332 01:10:39.800 --> 01:10:44.539 Kendi's dream come true, like going after, you know, universities 1333 01:10:44.579 --> 01:10:49.390 and saying you're not sufficiently and not anti-anti-Semitic enough. I 1334 01:10:49.399 --> 01:10:51.550 think it's outrageous. I think it's obviously a violation and 1335 01:10:51.569 --> 01:10:54.829 all of that of free speech. Woke 2.0 is what 1336 01:10:55.029 --> 01:10:58.430 I think is, you know, for example, Abdul El-Sayed, the 1337 01:10:58.470 --> 01:11:02.140 candidate in Michigan, literally claimed that he'd never said defund 1338 01:11:02.159 --> 01:11:05.060 the police. He did say it. He lied about that. Now, 1339 01:11:05.220 --> 01:11:08.300 that's an important thing. Okay, but John, he said it, 1340 01:11:08.399 --> 01:11:10.399 and he lied that he didn't say it. He deleted 1341 01:11:10.439 --> 01:11:12.739 his tweet, and that's fine. That may not be objectionable 1342 01:11:12.800 --> 01:11:14.689 to you, but it certainly is objectionable. 1343 01:11:14.890 --> 01:11:17.409 We've all lived through the campaign ads of guys on 1344 01:11:17.430 --> 01:11:20.050 the left having to walk with police and go like... 1345 01:11:20.449 --> 01:11:22.149 It's actually, they're quite nice. 1346 01:11:22.449 --> 01:11:25.329 Well, I actually think that's healthy and good because it 1347 01:11:25.529 --> 01:11:28.460 establishes good norms in society as opposed to, you know, 1348 01:11:28.500 --> 01:11:30.500 like wanting to defund and or ban police. 1349 01:11:30.659 --> 01:11:35.659 Well, that's, I never understood why progressives reject safety, public 1350 01:11:35.720 --> 01:11:39.939 safety as a non-progressive value. I always look at it 1351 01:11:40.060 --> 01:11:45.850 as don't people in the most economically devastated areas deserve 1352 01:11:45.890 --> 01:11:50.239 the same level of law and order that people in 1353 01:11:50.279 --> 01:11:55.600 Beverly Hills enjoy. I never understood why you would hold 1354 01:11:55.619 --> 01:11:58.939 back on that. But Tucker, the anti-Semitism thing is kind 1355 01:11:58.979 --> 01:12:03.159 of interesting to me as someone who's received pretty good 1356 01:12:03.220 --> 01:12:06.539 anti-Semitic stuff and been accused of being it myself. You know, 1357 01:12:06.579 --> 01:12:09.180 if you look at the Twitter feed, I'll always get like, 1358 01:12:09.220 --> 01:12:12.520 you're a dirty Jew, along with you're a capo. Like, 1359 01:12:13.029 --> 01:12:16.750 you get it all. I'm interested on the right, this 1360 01:12:16.869 --> 01:12:21.899 idea of you know, they fight anti-Semitism when very clearly 1361 01:12:22.220 --> 01:12:27.020 they hire people. You know, there's the Republican, young Republican 1362 01:12:27.060 --> 01:12:29.989 club in New York where they go through their chat 1363 01:12:30.029 --> 01:12:35.510 history and it's just vile, like flat out anti-Semitism. Or J.D. 1364 01:12:35.550 --> 01:12:39.470 Vance will say, look, the Nazi jokes, who doesn't like 1365 01:12:39.590 --> 01:12:42.560 to have a Nazi joke? I don't think we

should 1366 01:12:42.600 --> 01:12:47.770 hold that against people. While basically forcing universities to pay 1367 01:12:47.810 --> 01:12:51.939 them millions and millions of dollars it's again can you 1368 01:12:52.100 --> 01:12:57.159 understand why the whole thing feels cynical. 1369 01:12:57.159 --> 01:12:59.119 Sure yeah and you're right because it is cynical because 1370 01:12:59.149 --> 01:13:01.550 it's not about anti-semitism it's about israel that's what it's 1371 01:13:01.590 --> 01:13:03.630 about it's about the unholy alliance but. 1372 01:13:03.590 --> 01:13:07.390 Can't you understand now how writ large the whole operation 1373 01:13:07.470 --> 01:13:09.720 seems cynical Yeah, but. 1374 01:13:09.699 --> 01:13:11.439 I would say that a lot of Democratic stuff is 1375 01:13:11.500 --> 01:13:12.479 just as cynical, right? 1376 01:13:12.579 --> 01:13:16.750 And so then– Very well be, but you'd have to 1377 01:13:16.829 --> 01:13:19.729 tell me those– you'd have to make those points to 1378 01:13:19.770 --> 01:13:22.210 me as well. I could tell you what's cynical and 1379 01:13:22.250 --> 01:13:25.289 what's not, but I don't hear a lot of specificity 1380 01:13:25.430 --> 01:13:26.789 in the criticism. 1381 01:13:26.789 --> 01:13:29.989 100% fair. How much time do we have? I think– 1382 01:13:30.789 --> 01:13:31.310 Not much. 1383 01:13:31.350 --> 01:13:32.229 You're busy people. 1384 01:13:32.270 --> 01:13:34.369 Yeah, I think to your I do want to pick 1385 01:13:34.409 --> 01:13:35.350 up on the anti-Semitism. 1386 01:13:35.470 --> 01:13:35.689 Sure. 1387 01:13:35.710 --> 01:13:37.970 Just because I do want people to I want this 1388 01:13:38.029 --> 01:13:42.239 to be emphasized is it does expose the lie at 1389 01:13:42.279 --> 01:13:44.239 the heart of it. As you just said, that any 1390 01:13:44.260 --> 01:13:48.079 of this is really about anti-Semitism or any genuine concern. 1391 01:13:48.520 --> 01:13:52.859 It's about Israel. And it is just the pro-Israel alliance 1392 01:13:53.359 --> 01:13:57.029 with the Trump administration. And, you know, Chris, you eloquently 1393 01:13:57.510 --> 01:14:00.380 talked about woke 2.0. and how it's about power. I 1394 01:14:00.399 --> 01:14:04.430 think Woke 1.0 was also about power, cultural takeover in 1395 01:14:04.470 --> 01:14:07.310 order to defend an unpopular policy. So I think they 1396 01:14:07.329 --> 01:14:09.689 both have two things in common. And in both cases, 1397 01:14:09.890 --> 01:14:12.829 I think both are genuinely not about what they allegedly 1398 01:14:12.869 --> 01:14:16.350 were supposed to be, anti-Semitism and or racism. I think 1399 01:14:16.390 --> 01:14:19.069 both are about cultural power, who gets to have said 1400 01:14:19.109 --> 01:14:21.909 power in our society. Again, I would say I would 1401 01:14:22.130 --> 01:14:25.510 never have predicted it, John. And perhaps that's the dupe 1402 01:14:26.210 --> 01:14:28.020 in me, but You know, how can you come

up 1403 01:14:28.060 --> 01:14:30.199 with people who've been talking about free speech for 10 1404 01:14:30.199 --> 01:14:33.479 years only to then, when they have power, deport people 1405 01:14:33.520 --> 01:14:35.649 for what they have said? I would not have predicted that, never, 1406 01:14:35.770 --> 01:14:37.710 in a million years. And so I do have to 1407 01:14:37.750 --> 01:14:40.609 be forced to accept some of your own criticism of 1408 01:14:40.649 --> 01:14:41.130 what you're saying. 1409 01:14:41.310 --> 01:14:46.409 I'm just saying, like Donald Trump said to Zuckerberg, Mark Zuckerberg, 1410 01:14:48.029 --> 01:14:51.689 Zuckerbucks is what threw the election. And so if he 1411 01:14:51.729 --> 01:14:54.560 tries that again, I'm going to put him in jail. Mm-hmm. 1412 01:14:57.060 --> 01:14:59.859 I said that to Elon Musk. I said, so you 1413 01:14:59.920 --> 01:15:04.060 said free speech is your line. You're supporting a guy 1414 01:15:04.359 --> 01:15:08.720 who's literally threatened to jail somebody if they exercise their 1415 01:15:08.739 --> 01:15:12.840 free speech while you're, as a social media mogul, doing 1416 01:15:13.060 --> 01:15:17.579 far more direct electioneering, giving away a million dollars here, 1417 01:15:18.000 --> 01:15:23.340 setting up an algorithm that favors conservative content. How can 1418 01:15:23.380 --> 01:15:26.600 you justify that? And he says, oh, Trump has just 1419 01:15:27.000 --> 01:15:32.390 That's just talk. So I guess my point is, you 1420 01:15:32.430 --> 01:15:34.750 see the clues you want to see, Crystal, and the 1421 01:15:34.789 --> 01:15:38.640 same could be said from the left. If somebody was saying, yeah, man, 1422 01:15:38.729 --> 01:15:41.579 I'm going to open all the borders, and then that's 1423 01:15:41.619 --> 01:15:45.439 what happens. And you say, when you say, well, they 1424 01:15:45.460 --> 01:15:48.350 said it. How can you pretend that they didn't? 1425 01:15:50.810 --> 01:15:54.989 Well, yeah, I mean, I think to me, it's not 1426 01:15:55.029 --> 01:15:57.609 just about listening to the rhetoric. It's also looking at 1427 01:15:57.710 --> 01:16:01.750 the actions. And, you know, I mean, look, it's no 1428 01:16:01.789 --> 01:16:04.390 secret Trump behaves like an authoritarian. He does it in 1429 01:16:04.449 --> 01:16:07.090 his business. He did it in Trump 1.0. You want 1430 01:16:07.109 --> 01:16:10.369 to just shoot protesters in the knees. That's hardly pro 1431 01:16:10.430 --> 01:16:14.470 First Amendment, pro free speech type of activity. And on 1432 01:16:14.710 --> 01:16:18.069 anti-Semitism specifically, I mean, there's always been even at the 1433 01:16:18.090 --> 01:16:21.270 height of, oh, we're pro free speech, etc., there's always 1434 01:16:21.310 --> 01:16:23.960 been a carve out for Israel. I mean, just look 1435 01:16:24.000 --> 01:16:27.000 at these anti-BDS laws across the country. Look at the 1436 01:16:27.039 --> 01:16:31.399 number of professors who had their careers attacked by free 1437 01:16:31.439 --> 01:16:34.859 speech maven Barry Weiss as one example. So there's always 1438 01:16:34.899 --> 01:16:38.829 been a carve out there because it's about protecting Israel. 1439 01:16:38.869 --> 01:16:42.149 And it's also about a lot of the influence they've 1440 01:16:42.170 --> 01:16:44.909 successfully been able to wield, which is not unique to 1441 01:16:44.930 --> 01:16:47.149 the Israel lobby, but is very central to the way 1442 01:16:47.170 --> 01:16:48.729 that our politics ultimately operate. 1443 01:16:49.010 --> 01:16:49.600 I totally agree. 1444 01:16:49.770 --> 01:16:51.220 Sagar, you were going to say something. I'm sorry. I 1445 01:16:51.239 --> 01:16:51.600 cut you off. 1446 01:16:51.939 --> 01:16:53.319 Oh, I honestly, I don't even remember. 1447 01:16:56.439 --> 01:16:58.359 That's a perfect place to stop. 1448 01:16:59.420 --> 01:17:02.590 Hold on, John. If I don't say that my husband, 1449 01:17:02.649 --> 01:17:04.789 Kyle Kalinsky, wants you to run for president and is 1450 01:17:04.810 --> 01:17:06.869 your biggest booster, then he's going to divorce me. So 1451 01:17:06.890 --> 01:17:07.569 I have to put that out there. 1452 01:17:07.609 --> 01:17:12.840 Oh, dear God. Don't let the divorce. I so want 1453 01:17:12.880 --> 01:17:15.520 you two to work out, but I don't want to. 1454 01:17:17.380 --> 01:17:18.880 Come on, the country needs. 1455 01:17:18.739 --> 01:17:22.779 You, John. Do you guys talk about, in your mind, 1456 01:17:23.539 --> 01:17:28.500 is there a leader that you think could arise that 1457 01:17:28.600 --> 01:17:33.439 could put behind us this weaponized environment we currently live in, 1458 01:17:34.039 --> 01:17:39.000 run on a platform of sane policy, competently executed? Do 1459 01:17:39.479 --> 01:17:43.060 you think they could do that? And is there someone 1460 01:17:43.119 --> 01:17:46.369 out there that you view as having that potential? 1461 01:17:46.859 --> 01:17:49.199 Yes, I think you could do that, John. Yes, I 1462 01:17:49.239 --> 01:17:52.739 think you could do that. Well, no, I was just 1463 01:17:52.760 --> 01:17:54.920 going to say there is an agenda for the taking 1464 01:17:55.159 --> 01:17:56.920 for someone. I don't know who that someone is. 1465 01:17:57.140 --> 01:17:59.430 No question. Certainly on the left, it's wide open. 1466 01:17:59.510 --> 01:18:02.170 There is an agenda for the taking that is about 1467 01:18:02.409 --> 01:18:05.970 economic populism. Yes, it's about pushing back against the tech oligarchs, 1468 01:18:06.350 --> 01:18:08.869 fighting back against these data centers that are taking over 1469 01:18:08.930 --> 01:18:13.460 communities and which are hated by left, right, center, doesn't matter. 1470 01:18:13.920 --> 01:18:18.159 About a foreign policy, which is about investing in America 1471 01:18:18.199 --> 01:18:22.220 rather than fighting these oligarchs horrific, immoral foreign wars

and 1472 01:18:22.300 --> 01:18:26.520 backstopping a genocide. To me, there is a broad FDR-style 1473 01:18:26.600 --> 01:18:30.560 coalition that is there for the taking if you have 1474 01:18:30.920 --> 01:18:34.060 the right person who has credibility in expressing those values 1475 01:18:34.100 --> 01:18:34.720 in the right way. 1476 01:18:35.199 --> 01:18:36.460 Sagar? 1477 01:18:37.149 --> 01:18:39.659 I don't know about a specific person. I do have 1478 01:18:39.729 --> 01:18:42.810 a general kind of theory. I love to read history books, 1479 01:18:43.310 --> 01:18:45.279 is that we talked about the 60s and the 70s. 1480 01:18:46.270 --> 01:18:48.239 And one of the most unique parts of Jimmy Carter's 1481 01:18:48.319 --> 01:18:50.420 rise is that if you had gone a few years before, 1482 01:18:50.659 --> 01:18:52.939 nobody would have predicted that somebody like him could have 1483 01:18:52.960 --> 01:18:55.520 been elected. Now, let's ignore how he actually governed and 1484 01:18:55.720 --> 01:18:58.279 kind of the promise of Carter itself. 1485 01:18:58.390 --> 01:19:00.609 It was an oil shock. All right. 1486 01:19:00.670 --> 01:19:01.170 Yeah, sure. 1487 01:19:01.289 --> 01:19:05.529 It wasn't just oil. But I do think a really 1488 01:19:05.609 --> 01:19:09.119 interesting idea is is that the Trump era began with 1489 01:19:09.140 --> 01:19:13.300 the escalator. The celebrity politics era began with Obama. That 1490 01:19:13.319 --> 01:19:18.199 we've now lived with 20-so years of celebrity politics. That 1491 01:19:18.239 --> 01:19:20.840 an inevitable swing back would be to the type of 1492 01:19:20.880 --> 01:19:22.100 thing you're talking about. 1493 01:19:22.119 --> 01:19:22.720 An executive. 1494 01:19:22.960 --> 01:19:27.449 An executive, a level of seriousness, an anti-charisma, a level 1495 01:19:27.510 --> 01:19:34.250 of nerdishness, almost, in the way that Carter's sheer moral impeachability... 1496 01:19:33.899 --> 01:19:38.739 was so important to the country in a post-Watergate, post-Nixon, 1497 01:19:39.119 --> 01:19:41.239 post-LBJ environment. 1498 01:19:41.399 --> 01:19:42.979 Governor of Iowa type dude. 1499 01:19:43.119 --> 01:19:47.270 Exactly. But with the right politics. So that's the key. 1500 01:19:47.279 --> 01:19:49.470 The key to those two things is many of what 1501 01:19:49.670 --> 01:19:50.289 Crystal just said. 1502 01:19:50.369 --> 01:19:53.149 And the right ability to communicate those politics. I think 1503 01:19:53.170 --> 01:19:54.609 there might be some people that exist without that. 1504 01:19:54.729 --> 01:19:57.229 If you put those together, the country is desperate for 1505 01:19:57.630 --> 01:19:58.409 genuine leadership. 1506 01:19:58.489 --> 01:19:58.989 Desperate. 1507 01:19:59.010 --> 01:19:59.590 That's what I think. 1508 01:19:59.810 --> 01:20:01.579 So thirsty. Final question. 1509 01:20:02.979 --> 01:20:03.220 Trump? 1510 01:20:04.310 --> 01:20:08.609 Famously chose the escalator,

which to me is maybe the 1511 01:20:08.689 --> 01:20:15.920 least authoritative mode of transportation there is. It's literally, it's 1512 01:20:15.979 --> 01:20:18.619 gravity and you don't even have to move your legs. 1513 01:20:18.920 --> 01:20:19.800 But it's cinematic. 1514 01:20:20.300 --> 01:20:24.529 Yeah. You just, you're heading down. What would be, for 1515 01:20:24.590 --> 01:20:27.109 our next great leader, what would be the mode of 1516 01:20:27.189 --> 01:20:33.500 conveyance that they could choose? Would it be people mover? Chariot. 1517 01:20:33.720 --> 01:20:33.920 What? 1518 01:20:34.729 --> 01:20:35.159 Anything? 1519 01:20:35.550 --> 01:20:38.090 They should announce it on Breaking Points. Breaking Points. 1520 01:20:38.170 --> 01:20:38.949 The Segway. 1521 01:20:40.289 --> 01:20:41.090 Majestic. 1522 01:20:41.569 --> 01:20:47.069 The final plug. The final damn plug. I can't thank 1523 01:20:47.100 --> 01:20:50.640 you guys enough. Crystal Ball and Sagar and Jetty of 1524 01:20:50.720 --> 01:20:52.840 Breaking Points. Please check out the show because it is, 1525 01:20:53.600 --> 01:20:59.050 and I don't say this lightly, good faith. Good faith 1526 01:20:59.119 --> 01:21:02.500 conversation that You may not agree with some of it. 1527 01:21:02.640 --> 01:21:07.390 You may have arguments, but it never feels cynical. It 1528 01:21:07.439 --> 01:21:11.529 never feels manipulated. And it never feels performative. 1529 01:21:12.109 --> 01:21:13.270 That's extremely kind, John. 1530 01:21:13.470 --> 01:21:16.350 And I really do appreciate that for the both of you. 1531 01:21:16.569 --> 01:21:18.060 It's not an easy trick to pull. 1532 01:21:18.159 --> 01:21:19.279 Thank you. Thank you very much. 1533 01:21:19.300 --> 01:21:21.100 It means a lot coming from you, John. Thank you 1534 01:21:21.140 --> 01:21:21.520 so much. 1535 01:21:21.720 --> 01:21:24.979 My last plug, my parents... adore you i love them 1536 01:21:25.100 --> 01:21:27.340 i think my mom met you in an airport once 1537 01:21:27.619 --> 01:21:29.859 and so wait for real yes she said you were 1538 01:21:29.899 --> 01:21:32.840 extremely kind to her uh so thank you and i 1539 01:21:32.880 --> 01:21:34.819 was in the front row at the rally to restore 1540 01:21:34.859 --> 01:21:39.789 sanity at age 18 while i was did it work 1541 01:21:39.810 --> 01:21:40.090 but i. 1542 01:21:40.050 --> 01:21:42.770 Was there i was there uh thank you guys both 1543 01:21:42.810 --> 01:21:53.430 for being with us yeah thank you Folks, I am 1544 01:21:53.470 --> 01:21:56.960 nothing if not a generator of ideas that may never work. Obviously, 1545 01:21:57.000 --> 01:21:58.739 we've talked a little bit on this show about the crumple, 1546 01:21:59.159 --> 01:22:01.319 which is the portable dog bed that you throw on 1547 01:22:01.340 --> 01:22:05.239 the ground that makes a different topographical shape each time 1548 01:22:05.260 --> 01:22:07.100 you do it. Think of it as the way your 1549 01:22:07.119 --> 01:22:10.930 dog likes to sit on your coat, although officially a 1550 01:22:10.970 --> 01:22:16.369 more dog-appropriate blanket-type thing hasn't come into production or fruition yet. 1551 01:22:16.770 --> 01:22:18.869 But this Shopify thing, if you've got an idea, if 1552 01:22:18.890 --> 01:22:21.579 you're somebody... that always thinks, oh, you know, it would 1553 01:22:21.619 --> 01:22:24.199 be a great business. This is the thing that makes 1554 01:22:24.270 --> 01:22:26.609 it work. It makes it ready to go from day one. 1555 01:22:26.670 --> 01:22:27.869 And I don't know how they did it. I think 1556 01:22:27.909 --> 01:22:30.810 with zeros and ones, I don't know how this works, 1557 01:22:31.710 --> 01:22:33.510 to be honest with you. I don't know how computers 1558 01:22:33.529 --> 01:22:37.430 work in general or apps work. Zeros and ones, and 1559 01:22:37.449 --> 01:22:39.390 then you feed it into a box where I guess 1560 01:22:39.569 --> 01:22:42.170 eight brilliant gerbils live and they do the rest of 1561 01:22:42.210 --> 01:22:45.090 the work. I have no idea. It's easy to design 1562 01:22:45.130 --> 01:22:47.279 your shop. It's easy to get paid. They handle the 1563 01:22:47.300 --> 01:22:50.619 checkout process. You might think to yourself, like, oh, how 1564 01:22:50.930 --> 01:22:53.439 are they going to complete their purchase? Shopify handles it. 1565 01:22:54.210 --> 01:22:56.550 Gets them to come back as repeat customers. Setup and 1566 01:22:56.590 --> 01:23:00.829 checkout are all handled. So get Shopify, for God's sakes. 1567 01:23:01.090 --> 01:23:05.250 With Shopify, nothing stands between your idea and a real business. 1568 01:23:05.630 --> 01:23:09.359 So go make it one. Start your free trial at Shopify.com 1569 01:23:09.640 --> 01:23:14.880 slash TWS. Start your free trial at Shopify.com slash TWS. 1570 01:23:19.859 --> 01:23:25.779 You can so tell Sager's parents do not agree with him, 1571 01:23:26.020 --> 01:23:34.470 but he's learned the gentle art of accepting his parents' wrongness, 1572 01:23:35.109 --> 01:23:37.430 but dealing with them in a kind way. Like, I 1573 01:23:37.489 --> 01:23:39.069 can't tell you how many times he said to me, like, 1574 01:23:40.409 --> 01:23:43.720 I see how you got there. Well, certainly I can 1575 01:23:43.880 --> 01:23:47.819 understand that. Why you might think that. But like that 1576 01:23:47.899 --> 01:23:51.399 is a guy trying to get through the weekend he 1577 01:23:51.470 --> 01:23:52.430 is spending at home. 1578 01:23:52.439 --> 01:23:56.409 I'm going to steal some of those like rhetorical flourishes. 1579 01:23:56.609 --> 01:23:59.409 Yeah, that's he has the patience. First of all, it 1580 01:23:59.430 --> 01:24:00.810 was saying like just I. 1581 01:24:00.989 --> 01:24:01.590 Fantastic. 1582 01:24:02.640 --> 01:24:05.479 Really admirable what he does. What they both do, but 1583 01:24:05.510 --> 01:24:07.310 what he did in this conversation,

because it was a 1584 01:24:07.329 --> 01:24:08.189 bit of two-on-one. 1585 01:24:08.310 --> 01:24:11.609 So shout out to Sagar. I did feel bad on that. 1586 01:24:11.750 --> 01:24:13.630 There was a certain point. But when he would say, like, 1587 01:24:13.710 --> 01:24:14.810 it's not cynical, and I'd be. 1588 01:24:14.789 --> 01:24:16.449 Like, come on! 1589 01:24:16.529 --> 01:24:17.609 God! Sagar! 1590 01:24:17.659 --> 01:24:18.659 Help yourself, yeah. 1591 01:24:18.920 --> 01:24:20.020 How can it not be cynical? 1592 01:24:20.840 --> 01:24:23.979 When he said, they love how much it drives you crazy, 1593 01:24:24.840 --> 01:24:28.279 that really hit me. Because I was like, so that's 1594 01:24:28.319 --> 01:24:31.189 why my family behaves this way in the group chat. 1595 01:24:31.909 --> 01:24:32.470 Really? 1596 01:24:32.789 --> 01:24:35.949 Last week, I left the group chat because the memes, the, 1597 01:24:35.970 --> 01:24:38.069 you know, the Fauci shit. Oh, my God. It just 1598 01:24:38.090 --> 01:24:41.189 like surged. And I was like, I'm out. I can't. 1599 01:24:41.380 --> 01:24:41.600 Right. 1600 01:24:41.909 --> 01:24:44.340 I mean, I've highly suspected for years that this was 1601 01:24:44.399 --> 01:24:46.500 all just to own the libs. And just for that 1602 01:24:46.520 --> 01:24:49.899 to be confirmed in that moment was gratifying, but also 1603 01:24:49.939 --> 01:24:52.359 really upsetting. Right. 1604 01:24:52.600 --> 01:24:56.579 But it's also in some ways it's verified my decision 1605 01:24:56.960 --> 01:25:01.439 to never join group chats. Oh, yeah. I do not have. 1606 01:25:01.989 --> 01:25:05.289 There are no long straight, the largest group chat I 1607 01:25:05.329 --> 01:25:08.449 have is literally with the guys that I play music with. 1608 01:25:08.949 --> 01:25:09.289 Okay. 1609 01:25:09.310 --> 01:25:10.210 That's a reasonable number. 1610 01:25:10.229 --> 01:25:14.050 There's four of us. Yeah. And the only discussions are, 1611 01:25:14.390 --> 01:25:16.430 the discussions are always like Tuesday night. 1612 01:25:17.649 --> 01:25:18.800 And then it's a bunch of thumbs ups. 1613 01:25:19.229 --> 01:25:23.119 What about Wednesday? Right. Can't, you know, it's that there's 1614 01:25:23.159 --> 01:25:26.359 not a lot of, you know, fuck COVID, like none 1615 01:25:26.380 --> 01:25:26.939 of that stuff. 1616 01:25:27.119 --> 01:25:28.039 I see where you're coming from. 1617 01:25:28.279 --> 01:25:32.279 That's exactly right. Brittany, what do we got on this, 1618 01:25:32.460 --> 01:25:33.800 our final episode of the summer? 1619 01:25:34.319 --> 01:25:37.399 I know, how sad. Okay, John, do you think the 1620 01:25:37.439 --> 01:25:39.649 White House press corps is cool with taking a bullet 1621 01:25:39.729 --> 01:25:41.449 or a surface-to-air missile for Trump? 1622 01:25:41.909 --> 01:25:47.489 Absolutely. Of course, they would say to themselves, if we 1623 01:25:47.550 --> 01:25:52.670 can be the decoy, if sir, if killing us makes 1624 01:25:52.850 --> 01:25:56.930 you safe- However that would be, do you want one 1625 01:25:56.949 --> 01:25:59.210 of us to put on the Trump wig? Do you 1626 01:25:59.250 --> 01:26:01.819 want us to put on the red tie and do that? 1627 01:26:02.520 --> 01:26:07.159 I'll jump in front of the catering cart myself, sir. 1628 01:26:07.560 --> 01:26:09.779 Whatever it is you want us to do, sir, do 1629 01:26:09.800 --> 01:26:12.500 you want us to taste your food to make sure 1630 01:26:12.539 --> 01:26:16.159 that it is in no way contaminated? Although now with 1631 01:26:16.220 --> 01:26:20.970 Kennedy running HHS, you don't know if it's contaminated because 1632 01:26:21.010 --> 01:26:24.949 of a foreign act of, assassination, or there's just diarrhea 1633 01:26:24.989 --> 01:26:26.989 parasites and everything. 1634 01:26:27.090 --> 01:26:28.720 Yeah, that was- Common misconception. 1635 01:26:28.850 --> 01:26:31.279 That was a wild story. Although, Kayla Collins, again, because 1636 01:26:31.319 --> 01:26:33.600 Kayla Collins, she does her research, she says, you know, 1637 01:26:33.619 --> 01:26:39.060 that is not unprecedented that a president has had to 1638 01:26:39.220 --> 01:26:43.159 change plans based on a certain threat. And it wasn't 1639 01:26:43.220 --> 01:26:47.319 until afterwards that it was explained- to the people who 1640 01:26:47.380 --> 01:26:52.449 remained on the targeted conveyance. Hey, by the way, just 1641 01:26:52.470 --> 01:26:54.529 wanted to let you guys know now that we're here safely, 1642 01:26:55.909 --> 01:26:58.210 there were a lot of lasers being pointed and we 1643 01:26:58.250 --> 01:26:59.649 weren't sure which one was. 1644 01:27:00.689 --> 01:27:04.199 It's so fucking crazy. Also the irony of it being 1645 01:27:04.239 --> 01:27:05.500 a catering truck. 1646 01:27:05.920 --> 01:27:08.300 It's just like what's always in the movies too. They're like, 1647 01:27:08.340 --> 01:27:09.539 how do we get you out of here? And then 1648 01:27:09.560 --> 01:27:11.500 there's like a little catering cart and you're like, oh, 1649 01:27:11.560 --> 01:27:12.579 it's perfect. 1650 01:27:12.899 --> 01:27:15.069 Here's the question. did he have to put on the 1651 01:27:15.130 --> 01:27:16.310 cater waiter outfit? 1652 01:27:17.329 --> 01:27:19.529 He had a disguise. He dressed as a bellhop. 1653 01:27:20.649 --> 01:27:22.529 Actually, here's what they did. They brought him in on 1654 01:27:22.609 --> 01:27:25.199 the big table and it had the little cloche on it. 1655 01:27:25.470 --> 01:27:27.409 And then they pulled it in. They got the table 1656 01:27:27.729 --> 01:27:29.869 to the safe location and then they lifted the cloche. 1657 01:27:30.170 --> 01:27:32.220 Are you okay now, Mr. President? And then put it 1658 01:27:32.229 --> 01:27:32.800 back down. 1659 01:27:33.189 --> 01:27:35.619 It's just such a screwball comedy. It's perfect. 1660 01:27:35.720 --> 01:27:37.920 Isn't it? It's very, it's

very Clouseau. 1661 01:27:38.409 --> 01:27:42.189 I also love him saying, if I go, you go afterwards. 1662 01:27:42.369 --> 01:27:44.989 And it's like, actually, not the case. 1663 01:27:45.090 --> 01:27:48.130 Actually, that was if they go, they go. 1664 01:27:48.750 --> 01:27:51.340 If I go, I go, you say. 1665 01:27:51.439 --> 01:27:54.479 Right. If I go, I go, and you don't go. 1666 01:27:55.300 --> 01:27:56.220 You go, bye-bye. 1667 01:27:56.239 --> 01:28:00.199 Yeah, you go, bye-bye. That's for sure. What else they got? 1668 01:28:00.659 --> 01:28:04.399 All right. John, whose weave is better, Trump or Fetterman? 1669 01:28:05.560 --> 01:28:11.359 Oh, whose weaves? Well, we've. Well, yeah, I was going 1670 01:28:11.380 --> 01:28:15.439 to say Fetterman. No, I mean, Fetterman, I think, gave 1671 01:28:15.539 --> 01:28:20.090 up on whatever hairstyle. Trump, at least, is experimenting. That's 1672 01:28:20.149 --> 01:28:22.670 kind of what I dig about him. Like with Trump, 1673 01:28:22.970 --> 01:28:25.050 you literally could imagine like, where was he this morning? 1674 01:28:25.170 --> 01:28:27.649 And somebody be like, I think the beauty parlor. Like 1675 01:28:27.989 --> 01:28:30.630 he's because he's got a hairdo now. That's like like 1676 01:28:30.670 --> 01:28:33.789 when my you know, when I was younger, all the 1677 01:28:33.909 --> 01:28:37.289 old ladies would go to this guy, Joe. It was 1678 01:28:37.310 --> 01:28:39.529 the beauty parlor. And Joe would be at the beauty 1679 01:28:39.569 --> 01:28:41.729 parlor and he would take care of the ladies. And 1680 01:28:41.869 --> 01:28:45.560 he's got that. I imagine Trump sitting under that little 1681 01:28:45.640 --> 01:28:48.689 dome after getting his thing up and just coming out 1682 01:28:48.720 --> 01:28:52.380 and going like, oh my God, wait till I play bridge. 1683 01:28:56.119 --> 01:28:59.420 Trump is the master of the weave because he's in 1684 01:28:59.460 --> 01:29:03.039 control of it. Fetterman, unfortunately, I think, look, to be 1685 01:29:03.100 --> 01:29:06.100 fair to him, like he had a stroke. I do 1686 01:29:06.159 --> 01:29:09.760 think that creates processing issues. I don't think it's a 1687 01:29:10.399 --> 01:29:14.470 great environment for him in long form necessarily. I don't 1688 01:29:14.510 --> 01:29:16.170 want to lay all of it on that because I 1689 01:29:16.229 --> 01:29:17.949 don't think all of it should be laid on that. 1690 01:29:18.390 --> 01:29:25.850 But I definitely think he may have a more thoughtful 1691 01:29:25.909 --> 01:29:29.850 mode of communicating that we are not necessarily privy to. 1692 01:29:30.380 --> 01:29:33.239 If that would be... Is that the nicest way. 1693 01:29:33.159 --> 01:29:33.619 To say it? 1694 01:29:34.039 --> 01:29:35.470 I would say it's too generous. 1695 01:29:35.810 --> 01:29:41.609 I'm not suggesting that the opinions should not be criticized 1696 01:29:42.449 --> 01:29:47.470 and looked at with astonishment,

because I do think they 1697 01:29:47.510 --> 01:29:50.770 are his real opinions. I just think... I don't know 1698 01:29:50.829 --> 01:29:54.739 if that was necessarily his best at defending them. That's all. 1699 01:29:55.319 --> 01:29:55.939 That's all I'm saying. 1700 01:29:55.960 --> 01:29:58.300 I haven't seen better, and I did look around quite 1701 01:29:58.340 --> 01:29:58.680 a bit. 1702 01:29:58.960 --> 01:29:59.180 So. 1703 01:30:01.260 --> 01:30:04.479 I haven't seen him articulate the point better than he did. 1704 01:30:05.619 --> 01:30:08.409 I actually think he's taking, I think Fetterman is taking 1705 01:30:08.569 --> 01:30:10.930 like some of Trump's playbook where it's like when he's 1706 01:30:10.970 --> 01:30:14.109 talking to some of the media, just like completely throwing 1707 01:30:14.170 --> 01:30:16.649 lobs back. Like when, I think it was Dropsite, like 1708 01:30:16.770 --> 01:30:19.390 caught him in the hallway and was asking him questions 1709 01:30:19.449 --> 01:30:21.449 about Israel. And he was like, who do you work for? 1710 01:30:21.489 --> 01:30:23.390 Like that's not a real organization. 1711 01:30:24.069 --> 01:30:26.149 You know what? Yeah. I'm giving him too much credit. 1712 01:30:27.020 --> 01:30:27.569 I'm probably. 1713 01:30:28.069 --> 01:30:31.729 But I think that's like a, He's, you know, copying 1714 01:30:31.810 --> 01:30:33.829 Trump a little bit. Like I see there's some tendencies there, 1715 01:30:33.850 --> 01:30:34.229 but yeah. 1716 01:30:35.109 --> 01:30:38.489 I think it's because in the conversation, like I did 1717 01:30:38.529 --> 01:30:42.020 get to a place where I felt bad. I know that's, 1718 01:30:42.039 --> 01:30:47.420 he's a senator. There's no amount of having that, you know, 1719 01:30:47.579 --> 01:30:53.470 but having diminished ability, but having power not be diminished, 1720 01:30:53.810 --> 01:30:56.810 that's a scary place for people to be. But it's 1721 01:30:56.850 --> 01:31:00.479 hard not to, on a human level, have a conversation 1722 01:31:00.539 --> 01:31:05.119 at that length with somebody in that situation where you 1723 01:31:05.189 --> 01:31:09.930 don't go like, oh, I, it's like, I have to not, 1724 01:31:10.229 --> 01:31:12.449 let me just not be. Yeah. 1725 01:31:13.210 --> 01:31:14.649 I think that you have to, yeah. I think it's 1726 01:31:14.670 --> 01:31:16.949 really good to like hold space for that kind of empathy. 1727 01:31:17.989 --> 01:31:21.069 But I don't. I've never used, I've never heard hold 1728 01:31:21.090 --> 01:31:24.970 space used before in a non- Um. 1729 01:31:25.409 --> 01:31:28.869 But I don't, I don't know that it's warranted necessarily. 1730 01:31:28.989 --> 01:31:32.350 I agree. And, and the reason why it's not warranted 1731 01:31:32.810 --> 01:31:36.310 is the amount of power that the individual wields in 1732 01:31:36.350 --> 01:31:40.840 the same way for, uh, Mitch McConnell, where you can 1733 01:31:40.880 --> 01:31:45.319

go like, wow, that must suck to be infirmed to 1734 01:31:45.340 --> 01:31:49.550 the point where you literally can't be filmed saying you're okay. 1735 01:31:50.590 --> 01:31:54.739 And then also think to yourself, Fuck that guy for 1736 01:31:54.800 --> 01:31:56.039 still having that much power. 1737 01:31:56.039 --> 01:31:58.039 100%. 1738 01:31:58.140 --> 01:32:01.840 I feel better. Thank you for helping me work through this. 1739 01:32:02.100 --> 01:32:06.359 I was feeling guilty. You shouldn't. I can't think that 1740 01:32:06.399 --> 01:32:09.130 I was feeling a bit guilty. That's all. No. All right. 1741 01:32:09.310 --> 01:32:09.770 What's final? 1742 01:32:10.069 --> 01:32:13.770 Resolved. Last one. John, please settle this for me and 1743 01:32:13.810 --> 01:32:14.130 my wife. 1744 01:32:14.390 --> 01:32:16.689 Done. I can do that. No problem. 1745 01:32:17.869 --> 01:32:20.949 McDonald's fries or Burger King onion rings? 1746 01:32:22.010 --> 01:32:28.630 McDonald's fries. Yeah. Why would anybody even... Yeah. Why would 1747 01:32:28.649 --> 01:32:32.640 someone throw that even into the... The Burger King onion 1748 01:32:32.680 --> 01:32:35.020 ring is not... I don't believe is in the same 1749 01:32:35.079 --> 01:32:43.270 weight class. That's like Manchester City or somebody... The Galaxy. 1750 01:32:44.050 --> 01:32:44.750 It's not even. 1751 01:32:45.489 --> 01:32:47.729 They can do a friendly every now and again, but 1752 01:32:47.750 --> 01:32:48.930 they shouldn't be competing. 1753 01:32:49.029 --> 01:32:52.670 Thank you, Jillian. A friendly. They can play. And you 1754 01:32:52.689 --> 01:32:55.529 know what? We'll even pretend that we're going to referee it. 1755 01:32:57.350 --> 01:33:00.560 But we all know what the real situation is. Now, 1756 01:33:02.060 --> 01:33:07.920 the McDonald's fry, I will say this. My view on 1757 01:33:07.960 --> 01:33:14.460 the size of McDonald's fry has changed over the years since. 1758 01:33:14.890 --> 01:33:17.470 In the old days, if you would supersize a fry 1759 01:33:17.489 --> 01:33:22.270 or get me the largest container of fries that they 1760 01:33:22.310 --> 01:33:25.789 will allow me to take out of the restaurant. Do 1761 01:33:25.829 --> 01:33:29.380 you have, I'm sorry, do you have bucket-o-fry? May I 1762 01:33:29.439 --> 01:33:33.159 have a bucket? How about this? I'll hold my arms 1763 01:33:33.199 --> 01:33:37.260 like this and you load it with fry. And I 1764 01:33:37.279 --> 01:33:39.439 will walk out with, oh, you know what I'll have? 1765 01:33:39.680 --> 01:33:44.890 The sack-o-fries. Like a little Santa sack. Filled with fries. 1766 01:33:47.029 --> 01:33:51.590 As I have gotten older, I can actually feel the 1767 01:33:51.670 --> 01:33:56.010 amount of salt enter my body and slowly begin to 1768 01:33:56.109 --> 01:34:02.550 change the chemical makeup of what I'm experiencing. And I 1769 01:34:02.670 --> 01:34:04.939 can't do it. Oh, that sucks. 1770 01:34:05.020 -->

01:34:06.180 Just to know that that's coming. 1771 01:34:06.810 --> 01:34:09.800 Yeah. Nothing hits like a medium french fry and a 1772 01:34:09.840 --> 01:34:10.600 medium Diet. 1773 01:34:10.420 --> 01:34:13.420 Coke, though. Oh, but now you say medium french fry. 1774 01:34:13.850 --> 01:34:17.430 That is a respectable amount of fry. But the large fry, 1775 01:34:18.010 --> 01:34:21.109 three quarters of the way through, I think to myself, 1776 01:34:21.569 --> 01:34:24.609 I believe I'm having a pulmonary embolism. 1777 01:34:25.069 --> 01:34:28.949 I'll eat a bucket of fries for the both of us, John. 1778 01:34:29.130 --> 01:34:30.630 And I miss it. You know what I've taken to 1779 01:34:30.689 --> 01:34:36.670 doing at times? You get the fries and you do this. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1780 01:34:36.949 --> 01:34:38.140 I get the fries and I do this. 1781 01:34:38.149 --> 01:34:44.340 I have to clear out. whatever, whatever they put on. 1782 01:34:44.359 --> 01:34:44.680 That's dark. 1783 01:34:45.039 --> 01:34:47.199 Wait, have you had a Burger King onion ring? 1784 01:34:48.310 --> 01:34:52.350 Oh, sure. Okay. Oh, listen, I've traveled. Is that what 1785 01:34:52.369 --> 01:34:53.010 you're asking me? 1786 01:34:53.229 --> 01:34:54.989 Has he traveled the world? Of course he has. 1787 01:34:55.130 --> 01:34:57.710 Am I a bon vivant? Am I a sophisticate? Of 1788 01:34:57.770 --> 01:35:00.640 course I've had the, and I've, by the way, I've 1789 01:35:00.699 --> 01:35:04.840 even had when they try shit, like let's do cheesy tots. 1790 01:35:05.380 --> 01:35:09.399 Like when they, they'll introduce new fried items or things 1791 01:35:09.439 --> 01:35:10.539 like that. I'll try them all. 1792 01:35:10.850 --> 01:35:11.489 Why not? 1793 01:35:11.630 --> 01:35:17.600 I'll try the Cinnabon with the little frosting in the 1794 01:35:17.659 --> 01:35:18.149 center of it. 1795 01:35:18.180 --> 01:35:18.880 Yeah, fuck yeah. 1796 01:35:19.180 --> 01:35:22.119 Fucking Taco Bell tried to throw out a chocolate empanada 1797 01:35:22.539 --> 01:35:23.199 for a little while. 1798 01:35:23.579 --> 01:35:25.199 Yeah, sort of like a Choco Taco. 1799 01:35:25.760 --> 01:35:26.380 Thank you, Julie. 1800 01:35:26.890 --> 01:35:29.710 I always wondered who those advertisements worked on. 1801 01:35:30.109 --> 01:35:31.590 You're looking at him. 1802 01:35:31.609 --> 01:35:37.750 Me? I'll try them all. But I am always searching 1803 01:35:37.850 --> 01:35:41.829 for the perfection of In my old days when I 1804 01:35:41.909 --> 01:35:48.119 ate bread meat, the McDonald's cheeseburger, a large fry, Coke, 1805 01:35:49.000 --> 01:35:59.649 and an apple pie. That was the quintessential American lab made. 1806 01:35:59.859 --> 01:36:03.250 I'm sure it was made in the same lab where 1807 01:36:03.270 --> 01:36:06.689 you made creepy crawlies, where you poured the stuff into 1808 01:36:06.729 --> 01:36:08.810 the thing and then you heated it up and out 1809 01:36:08.869 --> 01:36:11.359 came a worm. I'm sure it was the same lab. 1810 01:36:11.920 --> 01:36:17.750 The 60s and 70s were nothing if not monosodium glutamate 1811 01:36:17.770 --> 01:36:19.010 and whatever else they could throw in there. 1812 01:36:20.510 --> 01:36:21.409 They figured it out. 1813 01:36:22.069 --> 01:36:26.050 So good. All right. Well, that's all for us. And 1814 01:36:26.090 --> 01:36:29.180 this is it. The show, we are done until, do 1815 01:36:29.199 --> 01:36:30.779 you know when the next one is? September? 1816 01:36:30.960 --> 01:36:31.140 Yes. 1817 01:36:31.159 --> 01:36:32.739 September 10th. Thursday. 1818 01:36:32.779 --> 01:36:34.180 We'll be out on a Thursday that week. 1819 01:36:34.260 --> 01:36:35.680 Switching it up. 1820 01:36:35.819 --> 01:36:39.020 We're switching it up September 10th. To all the people 1821 01:36:39.060 --> 01:36:41.970 that have been listening, throughout the year. Thank you all 1822 01:36:42.010 --> 01:36:45.800 so much for doing so. We're excited to come back 1823 01:36:45.850 --> 01:36:53.479 in September and infuriate you even further. As always, we 1824 01:36:53.520 --> 01:36:57.039 could not do it without our exceptional team. And we 1825 01:36:57.079 --> 01:37:00.189 have added a new team member, I would like to say. 1826 01:37:00.930 --> 01:37:03.350 A new associate producer by the name of Rebecca Rotenberg. 1827 01:37:03.390 --> 01:37:06.789 She'll be joining us, doing a wonderful job. But our producer, 1828 01:37:06.829 --> 01:37:10.010 Brittany Mamedovic, our producer, Jillian Spierk, Our video editor and engineer, 1829 01:37:10.069 --> 01:37:15.149 Rob Vitolo, who made a headroom call today that I 1830 01:37:15.189 --> 01:37:16.989 thought was well worth it. I got a little lax 1831 01:37:18.350 --> 01:37:21.069 and I came in hot with a shit ton of headroom. 1832 01:37:22.079 --> 01:37:25.079 And Rob said, not on my watch, my friend. Not 1833 01:37:25.100 --> 01:37:28.680 going to happen. Audio editor and engineer, Nicole Boyce. Associate producer, 1834 01:37:28.720 --> 01:37:31.500 Rebecca Rodenberg, as we mentioned earlier. And our executive producers, 1835 01:37:31.520 --> 01:37:33.699 Chris McShane and Katie Gray. Thank you guys so much. 1836 01:37:33.779 --> 01:37:43.449 And we shall see you in September. The weekly show 1837 01:37:43.470 --> 01:37:46.699 with Jon Stewart is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced 1838 01:37:46.739 --> 01:38:03.140 by Paramount Audio and Busboy Productions. Paramount Podcasts.