Volledige transcriptie van Christ's Descent into Hell: The Mysterious Three Days

00:02:39.841 Now, hades is a Greek term and it means like the realm of the dead, and it is pretty much the equivalent of what the Hebrews use, the term for Sheol. 00:02:39.841 --> 00:02:44.288 So Sheol and Hades for the most part seem pretty interchangeable. 00:02:44.288 --> 00:02:47.895 It's just obviously Hades is a Greek term. 00:02:47.895 --> 00:03:11.241 So in this understanding that Abraham's bosom, there's also this idea that Hades itself has two sections, one for the righteous and one for the wicked and one for the wicked. 00:03:11.241 --> 00:03:20.105 And this view also connects with Matthew, chapter 27, verses 52 to 53, which describes saints rising and appearing to many after Christ's resurrection, which is potentially a sign of their liberation and glorification. 00:03:21.989 --> 00:03:36.465 And the other view, the third and last view, is going to be that jesus, when he descended, he descended to tartarus and what he was doing there was proclaiming judgment over rebellious angels from noah's day. 00:03:36.465 --> 00:03:49.593 And this is kind of discussed or kind of like the term for it would be christus victor and it has a lot to do with Christ triumphing over evil and demonic powers. 00:03:49.593 --> 00:03:54.330 So, after going through all that, we're going to unpack it. 00:03:54.330 --> 00:03:57.439 And where would you like to start with, Kathryn? 00:03:57.439 --> 00:04:07.144 Do you want to go over the key scripture passages or you want to go immediately to the understandings of what those three terms mean hades, gehenna and tartarus? 00:04:08.586 --> 00:04:10.150 um either way you want to? 00:04:10.409 --> 00:04:11.491 okay, let's start there. 00:04:11.491 --> 00:04:13.903 Yeah, and then maybe we'll work our way back. 00:04:13.924 --> 00:04:27.754 Yeah, I will say like just going back to when you're talking about the creed and just I, it is uh pretty amazing how, like up, we would say the creed all the time. 00:04:27.754 --> 00:04:32.651 Like I grew up Catholic, so we would say the creed at every mass. 00:04:32.651 --> 00:04:47.187 And you know, even when I was younger and that would come up where he descended into hell, I did not know what that meant, like, and I you know it wasn't until I got older and became an adult and started kind of looking more into it, like what does that mean exactly? 00:04:47.187 --> 00:04:55.033 But it is interesting to go through these different views that we kind of were talking about last night. 00:04:55.033 --> 00:05:00.793 So yeah, we can always start with, like, the scripture readings if you want. 00:05:01.100 --> 00:05:03.788 Okay, we'll start there then Okay, we'll start there then Okay, okay. 00:05:03.788 --> 00:05:10.206 So if you wouldn't mind reading for me 1 Peter 3, verses 18 through 20. 00:05:10.226 --> 00:05:30.850 Okay, For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison because they formerly did not obey. 00:05:30.850 --> 00:05:48.444 When God's patience waited, in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons were brought safely through water, and then can you also read for us Ephesians 4, and this is going to be verses 8 through 10. 00:05:48.463 --> 00:05:49.004 Okay, great. 00:05:49.824 --> 00:05:50.185 Thank you. 00:06:15.221 --> 00:06:31.961 So, in Ephesians 4, from what I looked up for the Greek term, which I'm not even going to try to pronounce, but it literally translates that he led captivity, captive, and what this is is a poetic idiom and it emphasizes complete victory. 00:06:31.961 --> 00:06:38.293 So essentially, what it's saying is Christ himself captures the captors. 00:06:38.293 --> 00:06:56.127 Now, what is meant by the captors could be the death, demons or spiritual powers, and we're going to take a closer look at that view because that matches, um, like I said, the third concept of where christ went when he died, and that would have been tartarus. 00:06:56.127 --> 00:07:06.973 So, and this is acts, chapter 2, verses 27, it says for you will not abandon my soul to Hades or let your Holy one see corruption. 00:07:06.973 --> 00:07:11.127 Now, this is this hearkens back to David. 00:07:11.127 --> 00:07:24.567 In the Psalms, david is the original speaker, and then, in this context, in Acts, peter is the one who is basically rephrasing it, not rephrasing it, but I should say say, um, hearkening back to it. 00:07:24.567 --> 00:07:31.911 So when he says for you will not abandon my soul or let your holy one see corruption, so whose soul? 00:07:31.911 --> 00:07:33.060 And who's the holy one? 00:07:33.060 --> 00:07:41.423 It would be, from my understanding, it's christ in his soul and he is the holy one being described that's not going to see corruption. 00:07:42.326 --> 00:07:46.012 And and then in Acts, same chapter, but verse 31,. 00:07:46.012 --> 00:07:54.630 It says he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 00:07:54.630 --> 00:08:05.130 So the reason why I brought this up was because I wanted to just kind of think about what has meant that Christ was not abandoned to Hades. 00:08:05.130 --> 00:08:08.584 There's a couple of different ways we can look at this. 00:08:08.584 --> 00:08:19.641 I think is that maybe Christ did descend into Hades, meaning the realm of the dead, and we'll kind of unpack what that means a little bit in a little bit. 00:08:19.641 --> 00:08:25.754 So it could mean that he went there, but he wasn't abandoned there, he didn't remain there. 00:08:25.754 --> 00:08:29.951 Or it could potentially mean that he never went there. 00:08:29.951 --> 00:08:33.346 You know, he was not abandoned to Hades, he did not have to go there. 00:08:33.346 --> 00:08:41.697 This would closely align with the I

believe it was the first view that we had brought up that he entered into paradise only. 00:08:42.179 --> 00:08:42.299 Yeah. 00:08:42.399 --> 00:08:43.846 So he would not have gone to Hades. 00:08:44.701 --> 00:08:48.769 I'm guessing that would be more of like the reformed view, correct? 00:08:49.149 --> 00:08:49.630 That's correct. 00:08:49.772 --> 00:08:59.544 If um cause I know we're going to talk about a little bit later, cause that makes sense when they um, since they believe it to be like the suffering of Christ on the cross. 00:08:59.544 --> 00:09:05.514 Correct, yeah, After you know his last breath on the cross, he would have gone straight to heaven. 00:09:05.975 --> 00:09:06.216 Yeah. 00:09:06.216 --> 00:09:36.828 So when it talks about, for example, the Heidelberg Catechism briefly brings up in one of its answers that what is meant by in the Apostles Creed that he descended into hell, was that it's basically meaning the torment of his, meaning the torment of of his, basically the torment that he went through with his um crucifixion and the pain and anguish that he went through, so basically going to the depths of depths of hell, essentially in his body. 00:09:36.828 --> 00:09:39.355 And this goes right into what we were talking about. 00:09:39.355 --> 00:09:48.682 Next verse was um Luke 23, 43, when Jesus responds to the thief on the cross truly, I say to you today you will be with me in paradise. 00:09:48.682 --> 00:09:58.089 And then one last biblical passage we want to bring up is Revelation, chapter 1, 17 through 18. 00:09:58.089 --> 00:10:09.725 And it says when I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead, but he, meaning Christ, laid his right hand on me saying fear not, I am the first and the. 00:10:09.806 --> 00:10:29.924 So there's a distinction that is clearly being made between death and Hades, distinction that is clearly being made between death and Hades, and one is representing that Jesus has. 00:10:29.924 --> 00:10:32.890 Well, jesus has authority over both death and Hades. 00:10:32.890 --> 00:10:38.267 So he has authority over the state of death and over the realm of the dead. 00:10:38.267 --> 00:10:42.543 So Hades is basically the intermediate realm of the dead. 00:10:42.543 --> 00:10:52.761 Obviously, as I mentioned before, that's equivalent to Sheol and the Hebrew concept, and it is a temporary place and it's not necessarily a place of torment. 00:10:52.761 --> 00:11:00.985 So it's not a place of punishment or anything like that, it's just a holding place for the dead before the final judgment. 00:11:00.985 --> 00:11:07.721 So it's also associated with the grave or the underworld and not to be confused with the final judgment. 00:11:07.721 --> 00:11:24.643 And so this is where I wanted to kind of dive into subcategories under Hades, so one of them being that it's believed that Abraham's bosom is a part of Hades and it's a place of comfort and not punishment. 00:11:24.643 --> 00:11:31.312 And I've heard some people say that it is heaven, which I could see that being a plausible argument. 00:11:31.312 --> 00:11:33.195 Have you ever heard that, mm-mm? 00:11:33.654 --> 00:11:33.855 Yeah. 00:11:35.201 --> 00:11:42.394 No, that when someone's taken up to Abraham's side or Abraham's bosom, it is meaning that they're being taken up to heaven. 00:11:42.394 --> 00:11:43.134 Okay. 00:11:44.221 --> 00:11:46.568 Another category would be Tartarus. 00:11:46.568 --> 00:12:01.633 Now, Tartarus, from my understanding, is that it's actually a level in Hades, but the lowest level, Tartarus, is mentioned only in one place in the New Testament, which is 2 Peter 2, verses 4. 00:12:01.633 --> 00:12:04.826 Now, Tartarus is kind of a unique term. 00:12:04.826 --> 00:12:11.870 It's a Greek term and it's where God holds the rebellious angels in chains until judgment day. 00:12:11.870 --> 00:12:28.033 And it's not to be confused with just Hades in general, because from what I've looked up, it does sound like it's maybe a level in Hades, but it's also not to be confused with hell, which is Gehenna. 00:12:28.033 --> 00:12:33.886 So, and there's a couple passages that you know, if you wouldn't mind reading them for me both. 00:12:33.886 --> 00:12:38.471 Second, let's start with second Peter, chapter two, verses four. 00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:49.009 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment? 00:12:50.192 --> 00:12:51.886 Okay, and what translation do you have up? 00:12:52.460 --> 00:12:53.731 That's ESV. 00:12:54.176 --> 00:12:54.398 ESV. 00:12:54.398 --> 00:12:56.847 Yeah, esv is a common one I use too. 00:12:56.847 --> 00:13:08.326 So I'm glad you read from the ESV, because the translation I put in my notes are from the Lexham English Bible, because the translation I put in my notes are from the Lexham English Bible and I guess the actual Greek term is. 00:13:08.326 --> 00:13:21.268 So I'll just read you what the Lexham version says For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but held them captive in Tartarus with chains of darkness and handed them over to be kept for judgment and your version says hell. 00:13:21.268 --> 00:13:34.331 I browsed through a lot of different English translations and the majority of them do say hell, but when I looked it up, the more accurate translation is Tartarus and it probably shouldn't have been translated to be hell. 00:13:34.331 --> 00:13:37.863 Um, which is kind of interesting because you kind of noticed. 00:13:37.863 --> 00:13:40.453 Have you noticed that the same thing happens with Hades? 00:13:40.453 --> 00:13:41.177 Yeah. 00:13:41.337 --> 00:13:44.687 Sometimes it's it's hell and Hades are used interchangeably. 00:13:44.687 --> 00:13:45.068 Yeah. 00:13:45.068 --> 00:13:56.873 And I think from I don't know from my train of thought, like I found that really confusing, especially growing up, because I thought they were the same thing, but

it sounds like Hades and hell are not. 00:13:57.139 --> 00:13:58.683 Yeah, well, it makes sense. 00:13:58.683 --> 00:14:02.884 In regards to being in the apostles creed then too, like what did they really mean by hell? 00:14:03.066 --> 00:14:10.850 You know, yeah, so yeah, and then um, um, can you read the book of jude, chapter one, verse six, for me yes, and I'll read the. 00:14:11.251 --> 00:14:13.202 Do you want me to read the lexham sure version? 00:14:13.202 --> 00:14:13.844 Okay, I'm sorry. 00:14:13.844 --> 00:14:25.533 Um, in the angels who did not keep to their own domain but deserted their proper dwelling place, he has kept in eternal bonds under deep gloom for the judgment of the great day. 00:14:26.640 --> 00:14:34.625 Okay, next we'll jump to Gehenna and then, after we kind of talk about Gehenna, then we're going to kind of unpack these passages. 00:14:34.625 --> 00:14:38.734 So Gehenna the word basically is the. 00:14:38.734 --> 00:14:55.815 It's the final punishment place for the wicked and it is rooted in the Valley of Hinnom, which is a real location outside of Jerusalem, which was associated with idolatry and basically burning trash. 00:14:55.815 --> 00:15:03.669 So Gehenna symbolizes God's final judgment and it is the equivalent of hell. 00:15:03.669 --> 00:15:12.729 For what I would guess is that anytime the word Gehenna is used it's going to be translated hell into English, because I believe there are one and the same. 00:15:13.740 --> 00:15:21.087 But I think the issue is with some of the New Testament translations both Tartarus and Hades are also translated hell. 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:41.667 So it kind of gives us a little bit more of a misunderstood view of a lot of other topics, I think, because I see how it kind of blurred my view in some of these different passages, because if it's not really hell, then that kind of changes the overall meaning of the text, right? 00:15:41.667 --> 00:15:51.102 So, going back to 2 Peter, 2, verse 4, about that, god did not spare the angels who sinned. 00:15:51.102 --> 00:15:54.110 This is supposedly believed to be. 00:15:54.110 --> 00:16:11.897 The angels who sinned are the fallen angels that are referenced in Genesis 6, the ones that basically intermingled with human women, and then, obviously, in Jude 1, 6, the angels that did not keep their own domain but desired their own proper dwelling place. 00:16:11.897 --> 00:16:15.129 God kept them in eternal bonds. 00:16:15.129 --> 00:16:24.270 So there's this idea that they've been put into Tartarus, which is a place that's like the lowest abyss of Hades, and that they're kept in chains there. 00:16:24.270 --> 00:16:25.538 Right, is that what you are're kept in chains there? 00:16:25.538 --> 00:16:25.659 Right? 00:16:25.659 --> 00:16:27.948 Is that what you are taking from it? 00:16:27.948 --> 00:16:29.033 Yeah, okay. 00:16:30.318 --> 00:16:31.666 Yeah, it almost makes me wonder. 00:16:31.666 --> 00:16:37.823 So the judgment day, so do you? 00:16:37.823 --> 00:16:42.071 Do you think that would be when he descended into hell? 00:16:42.071 --> 00:16:51.268 That was their judgment day, or is it still going to be later on? 00:16:51.268 --> 00:16:53.038 For that judgment day. 00:16:53.038 --> 00:16:56.840 Because even if he here's, just what I'm thinking. 00:16:57.062 --> 00:16:58.000 Here's just what I'm thinking right now. 00:16:58.000 --> 00:16:59.065 I just thought of this right now. 00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:08.154 So say he descended to Hades and Tartarus, is that how you say it, tartarus? 00:17:08.299 --> 00:17:13.645 Well, yeah, it would make sense that if he descended into Hades and Tartarus, Is a part of Hades. 00:17:13.645 --> 00:17:20.594 It is essentially or I should say potentially a part of Hades, but the lowest part yeah. 00:17:20.594 --> 00:17:22.667 And not the same as Abraham's bosom. 00:17:22.667 --> 00:17:26.469 So I mean, but obviously it's the same place. 00:17:27.180 --> 00:17:41.232 It makes me think that Jesus descended there to proclaim the good news, proclaim his gospel liberating the souls in Hades that are in Abraham's bosom. 00:17:41.232 --> 00:17:53.731 So all those, uh, the um people of the old Testament who are in Abraham's bosom, but then also declaring judgment on the angels and Tartarus. 00:17:53.731 --> 00:17:59.869 But yeah, it is really interesting to think about those two ideas possibly being together. 00:18:00.612 --> 00:18:05.432 Yeah, cause I didn't think that they were um, I didn't think that they were mutually exclusive. 00:18:05.432 --> 00:18:06.619 You know, I didn't think that they were mutually exclusive. 00:18:06.619 --> 00:18:26.403 I didn't think that the idea that he went and descended into Abraham's bosom, a part of Hades, and I think that this kind of closely is kind of tied with let me see if I can find it in my notes closely is kind of tied with, um, let me see if I can find it in my notes. 00:18:26.403 --> 00:18:32.069 Um, yeah, matthew, chapter 27, verses uh, 52, 52 versus 53. 00:18:32.069 --> 00:18:34.333 Let me get that, see if I can get that pulled up. 00:18:34.333 --> 00:18:45.191 It says the tombs also were opened and many bodies of the saints who had had fallen asleep were raised and coming out of the tombs. 00:18:45.191 --> 00:18:49.005 After his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. 00:18:49.005 --> 00:19:02.497 Now I feel like anytime that that's read in a lot of churches or just I feel like it's glossed over, um, because to me that sounds like a resurrection, right, like it's glossed over because to me that sounds like a resurrection, right? 00:19:02.517 --> 00:19:09.200 Yeah, so they're coming out of their tombs at the same time he is coming out of his tomb, or shortly thereafter. 00:19:09.220 --> 00:19:13.461 Is it or I thought it was when the curtain of the temple is torn in two. 00:19:13.461 --> 00:19:17.384 So wouldn't that be right after his crucifixion, right after he died? 00:19:17.544

--> 00:19:22.027 That's what I thought, but in verse 53, it says and coming out of the tombs. 00:19:22.027 --> 00:19:26.689 After his resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. 00:19:27.009 --> 00:19:28.549 Oh yeah, I didn't catch that. 00:19:28.549 --> 00:19:35.452 Yeah, so there's this idea, so he went to liberate those souls like he went to deliver them out. 00:19:35.452 --> 00:19:42.439 Yeah, I guess the question would be because so Hades is a? 00:19:42.459 --> 00:19:43.602 place for the soul, right, and not the body, correct. 00:19:43.602 --> 00:19:54.597 So if people are coming out of the grave and it does use the term body, which I found like an interesting, you know note, because, let's see, it says and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 00:19:54.597 --> 00:20:02.095 So they're raised, there's a resurrection, and I feel like that's not something that's ever really brought up. 00:20:02.095 --> 00:20:03.377 I never hear anyone talk about it. 00:20:04.441 --> 00:20:06.566 And so I thought that that was interesting. 00:20:06.566 --> 00:20:09.580 So what this could be is maybe a first resurrection. 00:20:09.580 --> 00:20:29.282 I think could be correlated to the book of Revelation where you know how there's like 12,000, or is it 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel that are saved, so that would be the 144,000. 00:20:29.282 --> 00:20:40.204 So I think when we read the book of Revelation it's often those people who are premillennialists will see everything that happens in Revelation being in the future. 00:20:40.204 --> 00:20:42.766 But obviously, as we talked about last, night. 00:20:42.786 --> 00:20:49.026 So you think possibly the 144,000 are the people of the Old Testament that were resurrected when Christ was resurrected. 00:20:49.026 --> 00:20:51.140 Yes, that's interesting yeah, yeah. 00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:54.415 I've never heard anyone bring that up and maybe I'm grasping at straws here. 00:20:54.616 --> 00:20:55.397 Wow. 00:20:55.397 --> 00:20:58.522 But isn't that kind of an interesting thought though. 00:20:58.702 --> 00:21:03.069 I mean I just don't understand how else we can explain this passage. 00:21:03.069 --> 00:21:08.768 I mean it doesn't use the term 144,000, but it does talk about in the book of Revelation. 00:21:08.768 --> 00:21:29.968 Because if we look at the language which John uses in Revelation, some of the stuff I think could have already come to pass, some of the stuff is going to happen soon because he uses the term these things will soon take place. 00:21:29.968 --> 00:21:49.500 So maybe not like, let's go to to, uh, you brought it up before but um, the dragon, uh, waging war on the woman, and the woman actually is supposed to represent Israel. 00:21:49.540 --> 00:22:04.569 Now I think that who's to say that the, the waging of war on the woman, didn't happen right away, which was the um, which was the persecution and execution of the saints in the early days of

the church. 00:22:04.569 --> 00:22:08.684 So you know, like the timeline's important here. 00:22:08.684 --> 00:22:21.416 So I don't want to get too sloppy with the timeline, but it is a potential that I could see Because, like I said, I think that not everything that John talks about is necessarily always in the future. 00:22:21.416 --> 00:22:26.255 It could maybe be a little bit, you know, past, present and future maybe. 00:22:26.556 --> 00:22:26.756 Mm-hmm. 00:22:27.900 --> 00:22:37.198 Okay, so moving on from that, yeah, so what you had talked about earlier and I'm trying to think of what it was, it sounded similar to what. 00:22:37.198 --> 00:22:46.079 When you quoted 1 Peter 3, verses 18 through 20, it made me think of that passage and I'll just repeat it here again. 00:22:46.079 --> 00:23:12.026 It says in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison because they formally did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is eight, persons were brought safely through the water. 00:23:12.026 --> 00:23:29.582 So I want to kind of fixate a little bit here on and proclaim to the spirits in prison because you had made a comment about when Christ goes to Hades that he's either preaching the gospel, which that's a view that's held, or it's proclamation. 00:23:29.582 --> 00:23:38.538 So it's not necessarily preaching the gospel like trying to convince them, but it's maybe like a declaration statement. 00:23:38.538 --> 00:23:38.838 Yeah. 00:23:39.118 --> 00:23:39.819 Could you see that? 00:23:39.819 --> 00:23:40.240 Mm-hmm. 00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:49.030 So it looks like the Greek word used for proclamation is chariso, which typically means to announce or to herald. 00:23:49.030 --> 00:23:56.623 It doesn't necessarily necessitate that it means to evangelize. 00:23:56.623 --> 00:23:57.925 So I guess, what are we to make of this? 00:23:57.925 --> 00:24:01.395 What kind of proclamation is he making? 00:24:01.395 --> 00:24:18.791 It could be a declaration of his victory, or it could be his declaration of victory to the righteous that are in Abraham's bosom, or it could also be a declaration or I'm sorry, a judgment being made on the wicked the wicked spirits. 00:24:22.723 --> 00:24:27.480 So what is your take on it All the? 00:24:27.500 --> 00:24:31.568 above, you know, could potentially be both. 00:24:31.568 --> 00:24:40.930 Yeah, he descended in the Hades and he proclaimed victory over the death and Satan and his enemies. 00:24:40.930 --> 00:25:03.619 And it also could be a proclamation of judgment to the fallen angels that are in Tartarus, because, as we know, the proclamation if we take the view that the proclamation is being made to the fallen angels, we know that that proclamation isn't the gospel being preached and trying to convince them to repent. 00:25:03.619 --> 00:25:27.275 Because not only the book of Enoch aside, that says there's no repentance for the fallen angels,

that God's not going to offer that to them, the New Testament, actually, you know, apocryphal books aside note that there's no salvation for the fallen angels yeah. 00:25:29.941 --> 00:25:43.575 It almost makes me wonder, and you can cut this part out if you want to Like. 00:25:43.575 --> 00:26:03.569 This is the start of the heavenly kingdom, with his resurrection and him bringing the saints to heaven with him, and then also declaring that those fallen angels be judged and sent to hell, so no longer being in that Tartarus state but being in hell, so no longer being in that Tartarus state, but being in hell. 00:26:03.569 --> 00:26:15.963 So he's establishing both heaven and hell when it comes to those who were on the earth at one point before his death and resurrection. 00:26:16.546 --> 00:26:17.387 Say that last part again. 00:26:19.076 --> 00:26:19.417 Obviously. 00:26:19.417 --> 00:26:20.923 I know he created heaven and earth. 00:26:20.923 --> 00:26:34.309 It's almost like he's establishing, he's starting to establish, the souls that are going to be in heaven with him when he's resurrected. 00:26:34.309 --> 00:26:48.150 Yeah, so those who are in Abraham's bosom from the Old Testament, so those who are in Abraham's bosom from the Old Testament, and then also declaring that the fallen angels shall be sent to hell and no longer in that Tartarus state. 00:26:51.175 --> 00:26:52.439 I don't know. 00:26:52.439 --> 00:26:53.079 Just a thought. 00:26:53.079 --> 00:27:00.002 Yeah, the timeline is a little tricky here because I could see that I could see that he's pronouncing judgment on them. 00:27:00.002 --> 00:27:09.419 Timeline's a little tricky here because I could see that I could see that he's pronouncing judgment on them and then so he's pronouncing judgment on them and then essentially is sending them to hell. 00:27:09.439 --> 00:27:13.266 I mean that also explains he has the keys to death and Hades. 00:27:13.266 --> 00:27:13.967 You know. 00:27:14.647 --> 00:27:21.287 Yeah, yeah, because if Tartarus is a part of Hades, obviously he has the key to that. 00:27:21.287 --> 00:27:34.383 Yeah, so it could be him potentially unlocking it and sending them to where their final destination would be. 00:27:34.383 --> 00:27:44.019 So Jude 1, verse 6, near the end of the passage, it says he has kept them in eternal bonds under deep gloom for the judgment of the great day. 00:27:44.019 --> 00:27:48.066 So that great day could be the final judgment. 00:27:48.066 --> 00:27:52.758 So I think more. 00:27:52.758 --> 00:28:19.463 I would think that they could be judged along with humanity on the last day, or they could be judged right away when he you know, if he descends into Hades, because obviously there's some something happening here right, like people are rising out of their graves and so so they're no longer held in that state. 00:28:19.463 --> 00:28:32.704 So they're no longer held in that state, and I'd be really curious to know if all of Hades is under

the rule or dominion of the devil or if it's just the part of, maybe, tartarus. 00:28:32.704 --> 00:28:33.767 I don't know. 00:28:34.769 --> 00:28:38.844 Maybe, maybe it was until Christ died. 00:28:38.864 --> 00:28:40.086 That's what I mean, yeah. 00:28:40.255 --> 00:29:23.714 And then he claimed victory, yeah yeah I can see how in first peter too, like we didn't really talk about this too much, but the um parallel this is what we heard last night when we watched that video when and saint aug Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas agree with this, but like the parallel between like the flood and Noah's family being rescued on the ark and being saved and that correlation with our baptism, just about how we're united with Christ's death and his resurrection, I can see why that thought is also Advocated for how we're united with Christ's death and his resurrection. 00:29:24.098 --> 00:29:25.454 I can see why that thought is also Advocated for yeah. 00:29:26.556 --> 00:29:39.601 Well, yeah, there are kind of some correlations being made there, because I believe it's the Olivet Discourse Jesus is mentioning, you know, so as in the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man. 00:29:39.601 --> 00:29:49.567 So I mean you have that being stated, and then also too, in Matthew chapter 16, because I think the Olivet Discourse is Matthew 18. 00:29:49.567 --> 00:29:58.157 Matthew, chapter 16, when Jesus is speaking to you know he's talking to the disciples, and then Peter obviously is the one who answers. 00:29:58.157 --> 00:30:00.781 First, about who do people say that I am? 00:30:00.781 --> 00:30:04.667 Peter responds with you know, you are the Christ, the son of the living God. 00:30:05.349 --> 00:30:11.759 And then Jesus makes this statement you know, blessed are you, simon Barjona, for flesh and blood hasn't revealed this to you, but my father in heaven. 00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:19.000 And then you know he makes a note that the gates of Hades will not conquer the church. 00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:36.465 You know, as me and Corey kind of discussed in another, one of our episodes is that the Gentile world at that time they believed where Christ was at, like the Mount Hermon area, that they believed that that was a gateway to the underworld. 00:30:36.465 --> 00:30:40.204 So it's kind of interesting to see all the correlations there. 00:30:40.204 --> 00:30:41.031 Yeah, to the underworld. 00:30:40.911 --> 00:31:03.823 So it's kind of interesting to see all the correlations there, there's not a lot of unity of thought as into what's the correct view if that makes sense where I feel like a lot of different theologians throughout history, whether it's early church fathers or reformers, seem to be a little bit more I don't want to say all over the place, but a little bit more of like have their own interpretations of this, yeah, like this could be a possibility of what it means. 00:31:04.505 --> 00:31:09.887 Yeah, so Irenaeus thought that when Jesus died that he preached to the righteous dead. 00:31:09.887 --> 00:31:15.186 Tertullian also affirmed this that there's a literal descent into hell. 00:31:15.186 --> 00:31:28.010 His descent into hell, like his death, burial, burial resurrection, and his descent into hell or Hades, like those views are all kind of connected to the doctrine of the atonement. 00:31:28.010 --> 00:31:34.327 Now, we're not going to go too deep down that path of the atonement, but I figured we would briefly touch on it here. 00:31:34.327 --> 00:31:40.386 But it is connected, right, Because it's like what was the purpose of what he was doing when he died? 00:31:40.386 --> 00:31:46.787 Is it connected to his atoning work on the cross, or like, or his mission for why he came? 00:31:46.787 --> 00:31:47.709 Yeah right. 00:31:48.976 --> 00:31:52.759 So origin, for example, he believed into accepting Jesus as a ransom. 00:31:52.759 --> 00:32:11.088 And then Gregory of Nysa he expanded upon Origen's view that Christ basically tricked Satan. 00:32:11.088 --> 00:32:15.080 And that's the thing it's like. 00:32:15.080 --> 00:32:16.855 How did he trick Satan? 00:32:16.855 --> 00:32:21.146 Do you think that the devil knew that Jesus was divine? 00:32:21.146 --> 00:32:25.487 Or do you think that he just thought that God became incarnate? 00:32:25.487 --> 00:32:31.459 And because there's a whole concept that he emptied himself, right, the concept of kenosis? 00:32:31.459 --> 00:32:33.645 Like he was made lower than the angels. 00:32:33.645 --> 00:32:34.858 Jesus emptied himself. 00:32:35.662 --> 00:32:47.550 Yeah, I mean, maybe in a way I mean I don't necessarily agree with that like how he tricked Satan, but maybe in a way Satan did think that he could like defeat Jesus. 00:32:47.550 --> 00:32:54.940 You know, maybe that was his like thought of him being here on earth, like, oh, he's weakened, I'm going to get him, you know. 00:32:55.280 --> 00:32:55.521 Yeah. 00:32:56.895 --> 00:33:02.906 But yeah, I don't know, like did he know that he was divine, even though he lowered himself? 00:33:02.906 --> 00:33:05.563 Maybe he thought he didn't bring his divinity with him? 00:33:05.563 --> 00:33:06.105 I don't know. 00:33:06.695 --> 00:33:11.480 Yeah, like there's a lot of from my end. 00:33:11.480 --> 00:33:23.775 There's a lot of interesting little pieces, parts to when Christ and his ministry is going around, pieces parts to when Christ and his ministry is going around. 00:33:24.316 --> 00:33:33.084 Like the demons recognize them, right, because you know, like the Gadarene demoniac basically says what do we have to do with you, jesus, son of God? 00:33:33.084 --> 00:33:35.603 Have you come to torment us before the time? 00:33:35.603 --> 00:33:45.079 And so it's like they recognized him as the son of God, right, and so it's like they they recognized him as the son of god, right? 00:33:45.079 --> 00:34:05.775 And but like there does seem to be some mystery um around why christ did some of the things that

he did when it came to he would warn the demons, basically, to not declare who he was yeah and then he would even warn people, he would heal, and then he would make a statement of like you know, don't tell people who I am, unless something worse will fall upon you. 00:34:05.815 --> 00:34:07.903 You know, if you do something worse will fall upon you. 00:34:07.903 --> 00:34:08.324 Yeah. 00:34:08.324 --> 00:34:10.983 Like why the secret? 00:34:10.983 --> 00:34:11.724 You know what I mean. 00:34:12.556 --> 00:34:25.923 Well, and I think we're going to get into that later right, in regards to why he, what are the possibility or what are the reasons for why he did that, here's some possible reasons, given when I looked it up. 00:34:26.114 --> 00:34:30.085 So it could be a timing thing because his hour had not yet come. 00:34:30.085 --> 00:34:43.121 It could be to avoid any sort of confrontation with the authorities before he has to be betrayed in the garden of Gethsemane by Judas. 00:34:43.121 --> 00:34:46.688 You know, maybe it was a little bit of that Like it. 00:34:46.688 --> 00:34:55.262 It was to avoid having the, the, the Pharisees and Sadducees rise up against Jesus early and take it. 00:34:55.572 --> 00:35:39.639 Obviously, god has control over that stuff, yeah, but it is interesting to note that he is warning them not to declare who he was and the last possible reason why he did it could potentially be it's a strategic move on his part and he's trying to intentionally be deceptive, where he is concealing himself and his true identity from the devil, which would fall in, fall in that line of a little bit more of origin and um Gregory of Nyssa's viewpoint that the devil was tricked into accepting Christ and then, since Christ and his divinity, it's like he swallowed up death and death could not contain him. 00:35:40.260 --> 00:35:41.693 Yeah, I thought it was interesting. 00:35:41.693 --> 00:35:58.302 When I was looking into this part too, I looked I found a quote by Athanasius actually, and his what he said, and this is a quote Jesus silenced the demons because he did not wish that the truth should proceed from an unclean mouth. 00:35:58.302 --> 00:36:03.480 So that's kind of that was his thoughts on why he silenced the demons. 00:36:03.659 --> 00:36:10.318 OK, yeah, which could potentially be, but it also doesn't explain why he would tell people that he healed. 00:36:10.318 --> 00:36:12.242 To the Correct, yeah. 00:36:12.369 --> 00:36:16.338 Because he told people also not to. 00:36:16.338 --> 00:36:17.481 And it could be. 00:36:17.481 --> 00:36:29.070 He didn't want a big crowd around him at all times, following him and bringing attention to him, causing an uprise, because obviously that's not what he was intending. 00:36:29.070 --> 00:36:35.795 He wasn't to start a war, that type of war that a lot of them thought he was there to do. 00:36:36.416 --> 00:36:49.903 Oh yeah, there's times when Jesus disrupted the Pharisees and Sadducees so much

that they were trying to take hold of him, whether to try to stone him or throw him off a cliff, or whatever their intentions were. 00:36:49.903 --> 00:36:53.340 It sounded like that they were trying to capture him and he would escape. 00:36:53.539 --> 00:36:53.740 Yeah. 00:36:54.431 --> 00:36:58.840 So maybe it could have been trying to avoid those type of uh scenarios. 00:36:58.840 --> 00:37:03.349 Um, so that's, that's the thing with the atonement. 00:37:03.349 --> 00:37:28.603 The atonement's very interesting because some of these atonement uh concepts that are kind of tied to, um, you know, like christus, victor, victor is the concept that obviously he had defeated over death, you know his cosmic triumph over the demonic powers, and that's kind of more closely associated with the proclamation to the fallen angels. 00:37:28.603 --> 00:37:34.641 I don't think it's exclusively so, but I mean, it does seem like it's very closely connected to that. 00:37:34.641 --> 00:37:34.981 Yeah. 00:37:44.090 --> 00:38:15.146 I guess, with all three different possible potentialities, I guess I could see all three of them being possible, because even the paradise-only view if Jesus says today, you will be with me in paradise, to the thief on the cross right, if Jesus says today, you will be with me in paradise, to the thief on the cross right, like I said, it goes back to a timeline thing, because it's like that doesn't necessarily necessitate that he didn't descend into Hades, but then also, immediately after making his proclamation and then ascending, his spirit ascending into heaven, because in the afterworld, who's to say how time works? 00:38:15.710 --> 00:38:19.260 Yeah, I mean, you know, here on earth, to us it was three days. 00:38:19.601 --> 00:38:19.842 Yeah. 00:38:20.030 --> 00:38:34.318 Or you know to people that lived back then when they but yeah, so that's three days, but like in the afterworld or in the afterlife who's to say how time works exactly so he could have very well been in heaven with him that day. 00:38:34.318 --> 00:38:34.981 You know? 00:38:36.909 --> 00:38:40.282 Yeah, I think so, and I think that, like I said, today, you'll be with me in paradise. 00:38:40.282 --> 00:38:51.105 He could be referencing his divinity too, like that's another potential um uh reasoning where it's like it doesn't necessarily like. 00:38:51.105 --> 00:39:05.311 I favor the idea that, obviously, that he went to heaven right away, but I could also see the idea that, well, how do we explain those people who resurrected? 00:39:05.311 --> 00:39:07.155 Like I said, that gets glossed over all the time. 00:39:07.155 --> 00:39:23.032 I feel like no one talks about it, but I feel like it's pretty big news when people start rising out of the graves and how many people it doesn't really say yeah, but I mean that that 00:39:23.052 --> 00:39:24.876 would fall in line with hey, is that a first potential resurrection? 00:39:24.876 --> 00:39:52.451 Yeah, going off of the

other ideas of the atonement, um, because I could see how origin and gregory of nysa, um, their view of like tricking Satan, and you know about the ransom view, I could see that being directly tied to his descent into hell, right, so I didn't want to leave out that, those views of the like or that view of the atonement, so the other one actually kind of reverses it. 00:39:52.451 --> 00:39:55.092 The reformed view is, I find, very fascinating, of course. 00:39:55.092 --> 00:40:11.202 So Calvin, for example, he believed that the descent into hell that's referenced in the Apostles' Creed means suffering God's wrath, not necessarily, not really a location that Christ himself went to. 00:40:11.202 --> 00:40:18.806 And then Luther seems like he affirmed the descent into hell, but he seems a little bit more vague as to like it's a little bit more of a mystery. 00:40:18.806 --> 00:40:24.695 We don't really know, because right, because it is a little bit more speculative. 00:40:24.715 --> 00:40:25.456 I can't say that. 00:40:25.456 --> 00:40:27.702 You know, it doesn't seem like anyone knows for sure. 00:40:27.702 --> 00:41:01.119 We're just given these glimpses into what the Bible says about what Christ did, and so the penal substitutionary atonement view is kind of derived from Anselm's view, because Anselm actually he rejected the ransom to Satan theory and he proposed a new theory is that basically Christ when he died on the cross it was restoring divine honor and the Reformers kind of built upon his view. 00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:03.456 So the ransom that was paid was not to the devil. 00:41:03.456 --> 00:41:04.641 In this view it kind of flips it. 00:41:04.641 --> 00:41:11.597 The ransom was paid to God, right, and with penal substitution or atonement. 00:41:11.597 --> 00:41:15.291 This is kind of closely related to Yom Kippur, which we watched a video on last night. 00:41:15.291 --> 00:41:16.353 Did you have anything that you wanted to closely related to Yom Kippur, which we watched a video on last night? 00:41:16.353 --> 00:41:21.371 Did you have anything that you wanted to bring up about Yom Kippur, anything that you found interesting about it? 00:41:22.414 --> 00:41:46.159 Maybe just what I talked to you about just before we started the episode, but to think about, like Jesus, representing both goats in that sacrifice in the Old Testament, a sacrifice of the unblemished, perfect lamb to God and then the goat that was. 00:41:46.159 --> 00:42:03.161 They transferred the sins of the people onto the one goat that they sent out into outside of the camp into the desert to wander and then would eventually just die yeah because that Sproul has a really interesting video about the. 00:42:03.362 --> 00:42:08.219 I think it's just called the Curse Motif in I think it's the Book of Leviticus, I believe. 00:42:08.219 --> 00:42:12.952 But basically on Yom Kippur, on the, I think it's the Day of the Atonement. 00:42:12.952 --> 00:42:25.822 Now there's some biblical evidence to to kind of back back this theory up about penal substitutionary atonement and I'll say this is that he who knew no sin became sin, that we might become the righteousness of God. 00:42:25.822 --> 00:42:28.755 So you hear, you have that transference, you have that imputation. 00:42:28.755 --> 00:42:30.119 That's one. 00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:44.005 Two, you have, um, the idea, uh, I think it's Paul talks about this and he harkens back to the Old Testament about there being the passage that cursed is anyone who hangs on a tree. 00:42:44.005 --> 00:42:53.802 And then obviously Christ hung on a tree and you know there's that passage that Christ came to give himself as a ransom for many. 00:42:54.992 --> 00:43:08.673 So there's that ransom type language being yeah, it is interesting how Calvin kind of went off the satisfaction theory, because I'm pretty sure that's what I mean. 00:43:08.673 --> 00:43:12.606 That's mostly what the Catholic Church holds to is the satisfactory theory. 00:43:12.699 --> 00:43:16.184 That's the thing I think that to is the satisfactory theory. 00:43:16.204 --> 00:43:17.085 That's the thing. 00:43:17.106 --> 00:43:23.094 I think that, but it's almost like Calvin kind of extended it into more of the penal substitution. 00:43:23.094 --> 00:43:25.137 Yeah, so they would hold to a satisfaction theory. 00:43:25.137 --> 00:43:27.523 So both are satisfaction theories right. 00:43:37.070 --> 00:43:44.246 I think the difference, from what I can tell the difference would be for penal substitutionary atonement is the fact that it is um it's a ransom being paid to god and it is more of um god's wrath being poured out on christ. 00:43:44.246 --> 00:44:10.985 So basically he pays the penalty due to our sins, which I think from a catholic perspective I mean obviously the catholic church would hold that um, that that obviously Christ did pay for sins on the cross right, he died for people's sins, but where they would deviate would be that they don't think that it's God's wrath being poured out on God, the Son from God, the Father right. 00:44:12.369 --> 00:44:31.641 Obviously, scripture does repeatedly talk about God's wrath towards the wicked, and I guess the idea would be how do you placate that, if I'm using that term correctly, how do you level that right? 00:44:31.641 --> 00:44:48.168 Level that right Like if God is angry with the wicked and no wickedness can enter into his domain, his territory, into heaven where he resides, full satisfaction has to be made. 00:44:48.168 --> 00:44:48.710 Yeah. 00:44:49.030 --> 00:44:52.300 So both parties would agree that satisfaction has to be made one way or the other. 00:44:52.300 --> 00:45:12.324 But in more of the penal substitutionary atonement is that there's that double imputation where Christ, he takes all of the sins, all of our burdens, he takes all of that on himself and then he transfers and gives us his righteousness. 00:45:12.324 --> 00:45:21.182 So that's a double

imputation view and one that I think that people think is primarily an innovation that came with the Reformation. 00:45:21.182 --> 00:45:45.623 But I don't really see it that way, because Augustine, in one of his works, basically says the same thing and which I found to be really kind of fascinating, because it's like sometimes in theology, which I found to be really kind of fascinating, because it's like sometimes in theology, there's a lot of things that aren't necessarily new but just kind of reworded or built upon. 00:45:45.623 --> 00:45:47.670 Right, because with Jehovah's Witnesses, their non-Trinitarianism is not anything new. 00:45:48.269 --> 00:45:50.277 Arius talked about it first. 00:45:50.277 --> 00:46:06.804 So some of these, whether it's good theology or bad theology, sometimes they have ancient origins, but yeah, so there was a little bit of kind of we were talking a little bit earlier and I wanted to get a little bit more of your take on it. 00:46:06.804 --> 00:46:19.969 So with Yom Kippur you have the sins of the people being transferred to the goat and, from what you remember, it's not the goat that's sacrificed, right, it's the goat that's actually sent out into the wilderness. 00:46:19.969 --> 00:46:21.315 I'm pretty sure it's the one that's sent out. 00:46:21.315 --> 00:46:22.599 Okay, yeah. 00:46:23.570 --> 00:46:25.257 Because I kind of missed that part of the video. 00:46:27.251 --> 00:46:39.918 So the goat you think both goats kind of represent two different roles that Jesus does In the theory that you're bringing up in regards to Penal substitutionary atonement. 00:46:39.918 --> 00:46:41.536 Yeah, but what did you call it Double? 00:46:42.851 --> 00:46:47.402 I think double imputation is probably a part of penal substitutionary atonement. 00:46:47.530 --> 00:46:49.478 That's kind of what that reminds me of. 00:46:49.478 --> 00:46:53.059 That would make sense if he were to represent both goats. 00:46:53.059 --> 00:46:53.882 Yeah, yeah. 00:46:54.510 --> 00:46:55.974 Right if he were to represent both goats. 00:46:55.974 --> 00:47:06.782 Yeah, yeah, right, yeah, because what's kind of crazy about Yom Kippur and the language that's being used is that there was one goat that was for the Lord and one for Azazel. 00:47:06.782 --> 00:47:10.152 The only other time I've read it, I read the name. 00:47:10.152 --> 00:47:12.940 Azazel was in the Book of Enoch, and it's a fallen angel. 00:47:16.034 --> 00:47:43.003 I think he's actually cast out into a desert place, which, um would be make sense, which would be tartarus and also, too, the whole um on yom kippur, when they would send the goat out with the sins of the people, like obviously sent it outside the camp, they would put them into the desert and then they obviously would probably eventually die from heat or starvation or whatever. 00:47:43.003 --> 00:48:08.119 I want to fixate on or focus on that a little bit desert, that it's a representation of Christ being almost like abandoned on the cross, because obviously with penal substitutionary atonement, a big verse, I think, is where Jesus says on the cross my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? 00:48:08.119 --> 00:48:12.059 This harkens back to the book of the Psalms where. 00:48:12.139 --> 00:48:17.000 David quotes this, and I don't think Jesus is necessarily just quoting. 00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:22.851 I think that David is prophesying that this is what Jesus is going to say I'm sure. 00:48:22.851 --> 00:48:24.619 Obviously Jesus would know that. 00:48:24.619 --> 00:48:32.184 So there's that idea that he was almost forsaken because he bore the sins of the people. 00:48:32.184 --> 00:48:40.583 God's wrath is being poured out on him so in a way it's I don't want to say abandoned, but forsaken temporarily. 00:48:40.583 --> 00:48:40.862 Yeah. 00:48:43.150 --> 00:48:57.085 And I also could see the goat being sent out into the desert could also be representative of Christ when he dies descending into Hades, of Christ when he dies descending into Hades. 00:48:57.085 --> 00:49:08.677 And since, like I said, the desert place that Azazel is sent to, they describe it in the book of Enoch as like a desert place in the abyss I think there's a connection there. 00:49:08.789 --> 00:49:10.036 It's basically what I'm getting at. 00:49:10.036 --> 00:49:11.331 No, I could see that. 00:49:11.552 --> 00:49:11.851 Yeah, definitely. 00:49:11.851 --> 00:49:12.413 Oh, I could see that. 00:49:12.413 --> 00:49:13.434 Yeah, definitely. 00:49:13.434 --> 00:49:41.949 So it's not that the other goat or other lamb is necessarily, it's obviously not sacrificed to Azazel, and some actually hypothesize that Azazel is just a place meaning like the desert, not really meaning to be a specific person or demon, but yeah, I did find those connections kind of interesting, how they all kind of tie together. 00:49:44.969 --> 00:50:02.699 So when it comes to the satisfactions theory, I think we can both agree like Jesus, through His obedience, made a complete and sufficient sacrifice for humanity's disobedience to God, which then balanced out the injustice that was caused by sin at the start of humanity, yeah, at the fall. 00:50:04.021 --> 00:50:20.059 So yeah, now that we've kind of unpacked a little bit of this I mean, it's a lot to absorb and there's a lot of potentialities here I thought it was worth mentioning that all three not all three are necessarily mutually exclusive. 00:50:20.059 --> 00:50:30.000 I would say that the ones that are most opposed to each other are probably that he ascended into heaven right away and that he was only in heaven when he died. 00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:33.514 I would think that that would conflict with the other two views. 00:50:33.514 --> 00:51:10.925 But, like we talked about, obviously, the time frame there and how time works, I don't know if it works differently or it's the exact same in the afterlife, but yeah, so there's, after bringing up the scriptures and what

some of the early church fathers have mentioned, I think it's given us a lot to digest and I think, in summary though I think what it can, it kind of goes back to that revelation passage right, that Christ has like dominion and he has authority, which what the keys kind of represent a little bit of of that, he has the keys of death and Hades. 00:51:10.925 --> 00:51:11.489 Yeah. 00:51:11.610 --> 00:51:21.643 And it's really important to kind of know which actual version of the word is being used, because some of these translations aren't necessarily the most accurate. 00:51:21.643 --> 00:51:29.143 Not that they're bad translations, necessarily, but like some of those small terms could make a big difference. 00:51:29.143 --> 00:51:34.541 Right, like when we talk about you, know I'm with you, even until the end of the age. 00:51:34.541 --> 00:51:37.929 When we talk about you, know I'm with you even until the end of the age. 00:51:37.929 --> 00:51:48.025 Anytime the word age is used in the New Testament I think it was maybe in the King James Version they would always use the world the end of the world, and the end of the age and the end of the world might not necessarily be the same thing. 00:51:49.030 --> 00:51:52.739 So was there anything else you kind of wanted to touch on before we close? 00:51:53.141 --> 00:51:55.498 No, no, I think we went over quite a bit. 00:51:56.230 --> 00:51:56.550 Awesome. 00:51:56.550 --> 00:51:59.577 Well, thanks again for coming on, Katie I mean. 00:51:59.577 --> 00:52:05.478 I think next topic we're going to discuss is, I think the Philly Oakway is the one I'm leaning towards. 00:52:06.019 --> 00:52:20.942 So we'll probably have an episode on that soon, because it is an important doctrine and one that separates Eastern Christians from Western Christians, and one I think that the East particularly has harsh sentiments against the West about. 00:52:20.942 --> 00:52:24.639 So we're going to maybe look at in our next episode together. 00:52:24.639 --> 00:52:39.061 We're going to look at if any of the early church fathers like what views they held on the filioque and what scriptural grounds can be found and maybe a little bit of what the Orthodox view is. 00:52:39.061 --> 00:52:40.184 Obviously. 00:52:40.184 --> 00:52:43.199 So we'll dive deeper into that. 00:52:43.199 --> 00:52:45.927 And well, thanks again for coming on. 00:52:45.927 --> 00:52:46.429 Yeah, thank you. 00:52:46.489 --> 00:52:47.351 I really appreciate it. 00:52:47.351 --> 00:52:48.494 You're welcome. 00:52:49.036 --> 00:52:49.998 Yeah, no problem. 00:52:50.159 --> 00:52:50.940 Looking forward to it. 00:52:51.240 --> 00:52:51.782 Yeah, me too. 00:52:51.782 --> 00:53:06.240 I think that that will be one that you're you'll particularly be interested in hopefully have a little bit more to say it's okay, I kind of threw, I kind of sprung this on you a little bit last minute that's okay yeah, I appreciate you joining me today to talk about it. 00:53:06.240 --> 00:53:09.059 You're welcome, all right, we'll see you next time, all right, bye.