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Better API docs, customer support lessons, and cannoli

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1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:02,980 -Hey, I'm Michael Dyrynda. -And I'm Jake Bennett. 2 00:00:03,900 --> 00:00:08,000 And welcome to episode 196 of the North Meet South podcast. 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:11,080 All right, folks, we are on another blitz. Um, 4 00:00:11,740 --> 00:00:16,259 my son is at a movie, and I have to go pick him up at some point. I don't know 5 00:00:16,260 --> 00:00:19,240 when that text is gonna come in, but when it does, I'm gonna have to, like... We're 6 00:00:19,240 --> 00:00:21,910 just gonna stop right where we're at, in the middle of talking, whatever we're 7 00:00:21,910 --> 00:00:22,860 talking about. So, 8 00:00:23,660 --> 00:00:27,040 let's get it in. In the meantime, Michael, how's the, uh, how's the World Cup 9 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:29,170 watching? You're, you're watching a lot of the World Cup stuff- 10 00:00:29,170 --> 00:00:29,900 -Yeah -... I think. Yeah? 11 00:00:29,900 --> 00:00:30,640 -Yeah. Well, look- -How's it going? 12 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:32,800 Yeah. Yeah, it's going really good. It's, um... 13 00:00:33,510 --> 00:00:38,660 I, I'm 39 now, so I have spent the majority of my life not following, not 14 00:00:38,660 --> 00:00:42,480 watching, not enjoying, thinking I would not enjoy soccer, you know, the world game 15 00:00:42,480 --> 00:00:43,680 -and all of that. -Right, right, right. 16 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:45,760 -But it wasn't until Eli started playing- -Mm 17 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:49,280 ... that I started to get into it. And, uh, especially now that we're into the 18 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:54,620 round of 32, it's, it's been exceptional. You know, the, the Canada game the other 19 00:00:54,620 --> 00:00:57,720 day was really good against South Afri- South Africa. Um, yeah. 20 00:00:57,720 --> 00:00:58,320 South Africa. 21 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,360 South Africa. We've, uh... We had the two, you know, the back-to-back penalty 22 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:05,770 -shootouts yesterday, where both- -Man, I- 23 00:01:05,770 --> 00:01:09,480 ... uh, the, uh, favorites went bye-bye. Like, no European teams. The 24 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,760 EU wants to have more European teams in the World Cup that, you know, clearly they 25 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:15,630 -weren't good enough to qualify. -Yep, yep. 26 00:01:15,630 --> 00:01:19,980 And now the first, first two European teams that played both got eliminated, so. 27 00:01:19,980 --> 00:01:21,820 Oh, man. 28 00:01:21,820 --> 00:01:25,840 Sorry to the Netherlands. Sorry to, uh, Germany. Too bad- 29 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:27,400 -Good day, mate. We'll see ya -... next time come out in four years. 30 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:30,300 -Yeah, yeah. I don't- -We'll be following, we'll be following 31 00:01:30,300 --> 00:01:33,290 -them on, uh, on- ... Saturday morning at- -You'll be- 32 00:01:33,290 --> 00:01:34,360 -By 5 AM- -... on the next flight 33 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:38,140 -... it'll be all over. -Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, I, um, I have not been 34 00:01:38,140 --> 00:01:40,280 watching as much as I would like to. 35 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:41,300 Um, 36 00:01:41,960 --> 00:01:46,740 but I've been... It's been enjoyable following you following it, and the other 37 00:01:46,740 --> 00:01:49,960 dudes that are in some of our chats, like, watching it and stuff. I don't know. 38 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:53,480 Like, I feel like I'm regretting the fact that I haven't watched as much, so I 39 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,100 should probably just start tuning in. That's the, that's the story here. 40 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,100 Yeah. I mean, the final 32 is where it's at. Even the 16 is, uh- 41 00:02:00,100 --> 00:02:02,080 -Okay -... is good gear. I didn't realize David 42 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,220 -Hampel was such a, a soccer- -I know 43 00:02:04,220 --> 00:02:05,220 -... you know, a soccer- -Same 44 00:02:05,220 --> 00:02:08,250 ... he's, like, running... He was real, real aggressive about it, too. You know, 45 00:02:08,250 --> 00:02:09,660 -he's just- -Oh, yeah, he was. Like, he knew what he 46 00:02:09,660 --> 00:02:11,220 -was talking about -... making hot shots about the US. I'm 47 00:02:11,220 --> 00:02:11,580 -like- -Yes 48 00:02:11,580 --> 00:02:15,070 ... "Come on, you guys. You... What's it like to lose to Turkey?" Like, uh, 49 00:02:15,740 --> 00:02:16,980 never lost to Turkey, couldn't tell you. 50 00:02:18,500 --> 00:02:20,269 -Uh, well, I- -Then he starts throwing out the excuses, 51 00:02:20,269 --> 00:02:22,380 "Oh, you played our B team. Well, boo hoo." 52 00:02:22,380 --> 00:02:24,340 -Well, that is true, though. That is true. -Excuses, excuses. 53 00:02:24,340 --> 00:02:27,020 I don't know a whole lot, but that is true. 54 00:02:27,020 --> 00:02:28,900 -Excuses. -And I mean, like, okay, so think about it 55 00:02:28,900 --> 00:02:32,300 this way, like, if you know you're advancing, you're not gonna play your best 56 00:02:32,300 --> 00:02:34,960 players. You don't wanna get injuries. You don't wanna get yellow cards. 57 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:35,950 -No. -You don't wanna get... Right? 58 00:02:35,950 --> 00:02:36,340 -No. -Come on. 59 00:02:36,340 --> 00:02:38,079 -That's, that's right. Yeah. -Who cares? 60 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:39,220 -It's all the excuses you want. -It's, it's, it wasn't- 61 00:02:39,220 --> 00:02:40,800 -I get it. I get it -... it was... it didn't even matter. Like, 62 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,680 so Turkey was going home, US was advancing. It didn't matter. So- 63 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:46,380 -Mm-hmm -... let the guys who made it to the World 64 00:02:46,380 --> 00:02:48,380 Cup, who, who typically don't get to play- 65 00:02:48,380 --> 00:02:49,769 -Yeah -... let them play. You know what I mean? 66 00:02:49,769 --> 00:02:50,980 -That's right. -We're trying to build- 67 00:02:50,980 --> 00:02:51,769 -Com- -... a program- 68 00:02:51,769 --> 00:02:52,680 -Do you know what? -... not just a team.
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69 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:56,100 Do you know what? Do you know what? Complacency is just nothing to worry 70 00:02:56,100 --> 00:02:59,380 about. Germany wasn't complacent. Uh, you know, 71 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,680 the Netherlands weren't complacent. Don't even worry about it. Just- 72 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:05,540 -No -... just cruise it. You just walk into a 73 00:03:05,540 --> 00:03:09,500 -win. You'll be fine, I'm sure. -That's right. That's right. So anyway, all 74 00:03:09,500 --> 00:03:12,820 right. Well, I need to start watching. Um, I have... You know what? I'll... The 75 00:03:12,820 --> 00:03:17,300 other thing that I've, uh, didn't realize is that I didn't realize that UFC has 76 00:03:17,300 --> 00:03:19,180 fights every Saturday night. I didn't know this. 77 00:03:20,020 --> 00:03:21,740 -Oh. -Um, and so I need to start watching those 78 00:03:21,740 --> 00:03:22,359 -more often. -Players who gotta beat the crap out of 79 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:22,700 each other. 80 00:03:23,380 --> 00:03:24,269 -I know. I know. -All the time. 81 00:03:24,269 --> 00:03:26,480 It's been, it's been fun, fun to watch that stuff. So, 82 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,900 -um, anyway, yeah. -Another thing before we get out of sports. 83 00:03:29,900 --> 00:03:30,580 Okay, let's hear it. 84 00:03:31,380 --> 00:03:33,400 Le- LeBron, he's out. He's gone. He's leaving the Lakers. 85 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,840 -LeBron Jahamas. Is he? Is he done? -LeBron, LeBron, he's done. They, the 86 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:38,920 -Lakers- -Did, have I told you this, have I told you 87 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:40,400 this inside joke that me and my son have? 88 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:41,480 -Mm-hmm. -So, like, there's so many- 89 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:43,140 -Mm-hmm -... foreign-sounding players now, you 90 00:03:43,140 --> 00:03:43,750 -know? Like, we have- -Right 91 00:03:43,750 --> 00:03:47,780 ... so many players from overseas and stuff. And so, um, 92 00:03:48,540 --> 00:03:52,160 to make, uh, LeBron James sound more like one of the foreign players, we call him 93 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:53,060 LeBron Jahamas. 94 00:03:53,940 --> 00:03:54,900 So, you know. 95 00:03:55,820 --> 00:03:58,920 -LeBron Jahamas. Yeah, he's, uh- -LeBron Jahamas 96 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:02,440 -... gone, goneski. -Okay, so is he done, done, retired? Like, 97 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:04,120 -he's done? -No, no, no, no, he's just leaving the 98 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:05,800 -Lakers. -Oh, where's he going? 99 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:08,820 Don't know where he's going. Don't know. Could be the Heat, could be the Cavs, 100 00:04:08,820 --> 00:04:12,560 could be the Warriors. It'd be funny if he ends up at the Warriors, but, uh, yeah. 101 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:17,200 Well, you know what? So, uh, Dusty May, who led Michigan, 102 00:04:18,100 --> 00:04:22,440 the University of Michigan, to a national title in basketball last year, which I was 103 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:26,000 privileged to be able to go watch. It was super cool. So it was in Indianapolis, 104 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:27,530 which is, like, a three-hour drive from us, 105 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:32,020 and all the Arizona, uh, fans were offloading their tickets 'cause they were 106 00:04:32,020 --> 00:04:36,160 like, their team lost, and they were supposed to win, and Michigan just 107 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,620 destroyed them. So people were offloading the tickets, so we got cheap tickets and 108 00:04:39,620 --> 00:04:43,000 got to go watch Michigan win the national championship, but he is leaving Michigan 109 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,860 -and going to coach the Mavs. -Yeah, I saw that. He got picked up by the 110 00:04:46,860 --> 00:04:47,610 -Mavs. -That's pretty cool. 111 00:04:47,610 --> 00:04:48,200 -So good on him. -Yeah. 112 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:49,900 -Yeah. -I mean, good on him. It sucks for us. 113 00:04:49,900 --> 00:04:52,020 Like, I really would've loved to have him for a few more years, but, 114 00:04:52,700 --> 00:04:53,130 -um- -Hey, if you can get a- 115 00:04:53,130 --> 00:04:56,960 -... they won the... Totally -... get a NBA team, like, not- 116 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:59,380 -I, I get it -... not everyone can be the head coach of 117 00:04:59,380 --> 00:05:02,580 UConn and turn down the Los Angeles Lakers, you know? But, um- 118 00:05:02,580 --> 00:05:04,680 -Sure. Right, right, right. So- -Someone had to- 119 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:06,800 -I mean, it's- -... go on and coach the Mavs. Sure. 120 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,460 -Yes, yes. So- -They only made, only made a generational 121 00:05:09,460 --> 00:05:14,620 whiff trading Luka for Anthony Davis, who's, who's now injured in Washington. 122 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:17,930 -Sure. Go and, go and coach the Mavs- -Yeah 123 00:05:17,930 --> 00:05:20,140 -... I guess. -That was a, that was a rough one, Luka 124 00:05:20,140 --> 00:05:23,560 leaving. That was a rough one. But, uh... And now LeBron Jahamas is leaving the 125 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,700 Lakers, where, you know? So I don't know. I didn't, I don't follow- 126 00:05:26,700 --> 00:05:27,960 -Yeah -... the basketball stuff too closely 127 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,480 -either. My family- -Austin Reaves resigned with the Lakers 128 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:31,730 -... is a big football team. -There was like, "Oh, we're gonna-" 129 00:05:31,730 --> 00:05:33,880 -We're a big football family, so- -"He's gonna go on the Super Max" 130 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:34,760 -... that's why -... you know? 131 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:36,780 -Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. -Austin's gonna leave the Lakers. He's 132 00:05:36,780 --> 00:05:42,020 gonna get a $250 million four-year Super Max deal somewhere. No, he took a cut. 185 133 00:05:42,020 --> 00:05:46,400 million to stay in the La- stay with the Lakers. So LeBron's gone. We got that 134 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:47,370 mammoth frigging 135 00:05:48,140 -->
00:05:51,180 disaster of a contract off the books finally, 'cause he's not gonna take a pay 136 00:05:51,180 --> 00:05:52,460 -cut. So- -Yep 137 00:05:52,460 --> 00:05:54,280 ... maybe we'll build some pieces around Luka now. 138 00:05:54,900 --> 00:05:56,360 -There you go. That'd be great. -It's clear- 139 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:57,410 -I'd love to see the Lakers- -You know, the ownership- 140 00:05:57,410 --> 00:06:00,560 ... have another, like, sort of a big, a big, uh, rally. You know, it was really 141 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:01,540 -fun when- -Yeah 142 00:06:01,540 --> 00:06:06,020 ... Kobe was there, and, and, uh, that was, that was a fun time to be watching 143 00:06:06,020 --> 00:06:08,520 -the Lakers, so. -Yeah. It's good to see that they're 144 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,580 finally building around the, you know, the future. LeBron- 145 00:06:11,580 --> 00:06:13,580 -Mm-hmm -... you know, LeBron, 41, greatest 146 00:06:13,580 --> 00:06:17,160 41-year-old to ever play the game. Only 41-year-old to ever play the game, 147 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:18,960 whatever, whatever the stupid stats are. 148 00:06:20,510 --> 00:06:24,530 He was getting paid like a guy that had been a, you know, 20-year superstar, which 149 00:06:24,530 --> 00:06:27,410 is, which is great for him, terrible for the organization. So, 150 00:06:28,750 --> 00:06:31,370 -we'll see what happens now. -Yep. Peace out, LeBron. 151 00:06:31,370 --> 00:06:32,090 -Got some pizzas. -LeBron James. 152 00:06:32,090 --> 00:06:32,890 -Yeah. -Peace out. 153 00:06:32,890 --> 00:06:34,140 What do we got? What are we gonna talk about? 154 00:06:34,850 --> 00:06:38,700 Um, you know what? Let me think about this for a second. We have been... 155 00:06:40,790 --> 00:06:42,930 Trying to think what we've been talk- what we've been doing recently. 156 00:06:43,610 --> 00:06:44,350 Um, 157 00:06:46,130 --> 00:06:49,650 I will say that, you know, we talked about our whole thing with permissions a while 158 00:06:49,650 --> 00:06:52,350 back, like, and how we were switching everything over to, like, a different 159 00:06:52,350 --> 00:06:52,710 structure, 160 00:06:53,310 --> 00:06:58,150 and I will say it has been unreal, like, how nice and flexible it has become. 161 00:06:58,770 --> 00:07:04,450 So the big mistake that we made, and is a mistake that I would encourage you not to 162 00:07:04,450 --> 00:07:05,630 repeat, is 163 00:07:06,410 --> 00:07:07,890 we used roles for everything. 164 00:07:08,610 --> 00:07:09,710 -Mm-hmm. -Which is fine 165 00:07:10,670 --> 00:07:11,350 to an extent, 166 00:07:12,130 --> 00:07:12,530 um, 167 00:07:13,330 --> 00:07:19,340 but it's just, it, long term, it's not super manageable. Um, and so especially if 168 00:07:19,340 --> 00:07:21,190 you're dealing with a lot of users and things like that. So 169 00:07:21,790 --> 00:07:23,130 my encouragement would be to 170 00:07:24,310 --> 00:07:26,810 move, um, your, 171 00:07:29,150 --> 00:07:34,430 move your management of roles and users that belong to those roles outside of the 172 00:07:34,430 --> 00:07:35,030 application 173 00:07:35,690 --> 00:07:35,930 layer. 174 00:07:36,590 --> 00:07:41,029 So what we did is we put all the permissions in the application, but then 175 00:07:41,030 --> 00:07:46,150 we said the roles that get those a- those permissions and the users that get those 176 00:07:46,150 --> 00:07:49,640 roles are managed outside of the application, 177 00:07:50,530 --> 00:07:54,590 which is a bit of a trick, but we figured out a way for ourselves to do it. Um, or, 178 00:07:54,590 --> 00:07:55,630 I mean, I guess if... 179 00:07:58,090 --> 00:08:00,870 The trick is just you need to have a good way to be able to manage that, where you 180 00:08:00,870 --> 00:08:04,290 can associate roles with users and multiple permissions with roles very 181 00:08:04,290 --> 00:08:07,650 easily without having to do code changes. That's probably the better, the better 182 00:08:07,650 --> 00:08:08,300 -sort of- -Yeah 183 00:08:08,300 --> 00:08:12,650 ... piece of advice there. Um, make it super easy to associate any permissions 184 00:08:12,650 --> 00:08:17,250 you want with any role you want. Make it easy to create roles com- like, completely 185 00:08:17,250 --> 00:08:22,170 free, and then make it super easy to associate users with roles. That's it. 186 00:08:22,170 --> 00:08:27,650 That's, that's, like, the tagline here. Um, and it has just been so much better 187 00:08:27,650 --> 00:08:33,110 that we don't have to invoke code changes in order to do anything. Any permission 188 00:08:33,110 --> 00:08:37,510 that anybody wants, anything you can do in our application, super easy to give it to 189 00:08:37,510 --> 00:08:38,790 anyone. It's wonderful. 190 00:08:39,430 --> 00:08:41,910 The other thing that we did that was freaking amazing 191 00:08:42,530 --> 00:08:48,850 is we did permission leases, which is somebody gets a permission temporarily. So 192 00:08:48,850 --> 00:08:49,560 -they get a temper- -Mm-hmm 193 00:08:49,560 --> 00:08:51,650 ... a permission for a period of time, 194 00:08:52,250 --> 00:08:56,270 and then it auto-expires. So you don't have to remember to go expire it after the 195 00:08:56,270 --> 00:09:01,209 fact, you just, it auto-expires. And then the last thing we did is we did delegated 196 00:09:01,209 --> 00:09:04,990 management of users. So if there's a person who manages 10 users, 197 00:09:05,930 --> 00:09:07,250 and they're gonna be stepping out for the month, 198 00:09:08,150 --> 00:09:12,570 somebody needs to be able to manage those users. And so somebody can delegate their 199 00:09:12,570 --> 00:09:16,970 permissions to another user, delegate their direct reports to another person. 200 00:09:16,970 --> 00:09:18,200 -And so that person basically- -Mm-hmm 201 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,590 ... is not imitating them, 'cause that's the problem. If you imitate a
person, 202 00:09:21,590 --> 00:09:24,830 every action you do looks like that other person did it, and that's not what we were 203 00:09:24,830 --> 00:09:28,990 after. We were after saying, "No, you can do the things that they could do," but it 204 00:09:28,990 --> 00:09:33,810 still tags it as you that did it. And so that's a delegated permission or delegated 205 00:09:33,810 --> 00:09:36,300 management of users. And so those three things together, 206 00:09:36,910 --> 00:09:39,930 that was the magic, and it's been awesome. It's been working across all of our 207 00:09:39,930 --> 00:09:43,899 applications. And, uh, I would say that if anybody has any questions on any of that, 208 00:09:44,530 --> 00:09:47,650 please reach out to me. I'd love to share with you how we did it. But that has been 209 00:09:47,650 --> 00:09:51,350 a big, huge thing. And every time I run into these permission things, which I've 210 00:09:51,350 --> 00:09:55,890 had a lot of them recently, lots of restructuring, it's just no problem. You 211 00:09:55,890 --> 00:09:59,870 just manage it super simply, and it's been really, really good. So that's been 212 00:09:59,870 --> 00:10:01,790 wonderful. And then, um, 213 00:10:02,610 --> 00:10:07,510 the other things that we're working on is integration of Apple Pay and Google Pay 214 00:10:07,510 --> 00:10:09,090 -into some of our- -Yeah 215 00:10:09,090 --> 00:10:12,670 ... stuff. And so I'm excited about that. I think it's gonna help a lot, 216 00:10:13,330 --> 00:10:17,730 um, with people getting onboarded, uh, and, and getting their payments up really 217 00:10:17,730 --> 00:10:22,330 quickly. And then the last, last thing that we've been working on is automated 218 00:10:22,330 --> 00:10:24,350 texting conversations. And so 219 00:10:25,010 --> 00:10:28,590 what I'll say about this, the things that I've learned about this, is that if you 220 00:10:28,590 --> 00:10:32,450 are texting back and forth with a user and you want to give them options to do 221 00:10:32,450 --> 00:10:36,410 something, don't make them type in words, right? So if you have multiple actions 222 00:10:36,410 --> 00:10:39,790 they can take, don't make them type in words. Give them numbers 223 00:10:40,749 --> 00:10:41,490 as options. 224 00:10:42,150 --> 00:10:43,120 So, for example, 225 00:10:43,810 --> 00:10:47,240 they text the word "pay." We look up their account, and we say, 226 00:10:48,450 --> 00:10:53,550 "Hey, looks like your most per- recent payment was for $200, ending in this, you 227 00:10:53,550 --> 00:10:55,370 know, for this Visa ending in 4242. 228 00:10:56,350 --> 00:11:01,450 Do you want to, one, repeat that payment, two, change the amount, three, change the 229 00:11:01,450 --> 00:11:03,310 payment method, or four, cancel?" 230 00:11:03,930 --> 00:11:06,050 -Mm-hmm. -'Cause otherwise, it's literally 231 00:11:06,050 --> 00:11:09,470 impossible for them. You had to type in confirm, or if you didn't- 232 00:11:09,470 --> 00:11:10,990 -Yeah -... type confirm, then you need to type in 233 00:11:10,990 --> 00:11:15,030 a number value that is the new amount that you want, but you have to explain all 234 00:11:15,030 --> 00:11:20,090 this in that text, and it's just, it's terrible. And so giving them number 235 00:11:20,090 --> 00:11:24,190 options, number one, makes it way easier to parse their responses, what they're 236 00:11:24,190 --> 00:11:25,350 trying to accomplish. 237 00:11:25,970 --> 00:11:30,570 But then, two, it gives you the ability to be able to provide more options much more 238 00:11:30,570 --> 00:11:35,150 clearly than you could if you were just using, you know, reply with this special 239 00:11:35,150 --> 00:11:36,319 -keyword, uh- -Yeah 240 00:11:36,319 --> 00:11:41,850 ... which gets really tricky. And so, um, that's been a huge benefit for us as well. 241 00:11:41,850 --> 00:11:45,170 And I know we're only at, like, 12 minutes. I've gotta go in, like, three 242 00:11:45,170 --> 00:11:48,250 minutes. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna let you tell me what we're working on, so what 243 00:11:48,250 --> 00:11:49,530 you're working on. So hit me. What do you got? 244 00:11:50,550 --> 00:11:54,930 Uh, well, we are going through this, uh, uplift project at the moment for our 245 00:11:55,690 --> 00:11:56,670 lender submission 246 00:11:57,510 --> 00:12:01,030 stuff, which has been an interesting experience. We've actually got a 247 00:12:01,030 --> 00:12:01,770 contractor in. 248 00:12:02,410 --> 00:12:04,010 The funny part about that is that 249 00:12:04,650 --> 00:12:08,630 the contractor that we've got in was my boss when I was working in an agency, 250 00:12:08,630 --> 00:12:12,410 like, 10 years ago. So now he works for me, which is wonderful, um, which, which 251 00:12:12,410 --> 00:12:16,570 we've joked about a few times. But, um, we've been just doing this uplift, you 252 00:12:16,570 --> 00:12:22,070 know, um, onboarding new lenders or lenders that have been on our panel for a 253 00:12:22,070 --> 00:12:25,050 long time that we've now actually started to build our integrations. 254 00:12:25,710 --> 00:12:29,962 The, um, the documentation is varied amongst them. Sometimes they provide 255 00:12:29,962 --> 00:12:30,422 really good 256 00:12:31,162 --> 00:12:35,822 JSON API docs or Swagger docs or whatever. The trickier bit is around whether or not 257 00:12:35,822 --> 00:12:40,222 there's contextual documentation, like actual prose that says, you know, "You 258 00:12:40,222 --> 00:12:43,801 need to send this in these circumstances," or, "When we ask for this," or, "When 259 00:12:43,802 --> 00:12:44,762 this error happens." You know, 260 00:12:45,362 --> 00:12:45,802 to have 261 00:12:46,402 --> 00:12:50,122 that kind of documentation, which I've seen from a couple of lenders, is really, 262 00:12:50,122 --> 00:12:52,632 really helpful. Um, and, and I suppose that 263 00:12:53,602 --> 00:12:56,902 more
broadly, like if you're writing API docs, if you're doing scramble 264 00:12:56,902 --> 00:12:59,012 -documentation, for example- -Mm-hmm. Yep 265 00:12:59,012 --> 00:13:00,162 ... put in the extra effort, 266 00:13:00,882 --> 00:13:05,022 I think wherever possible, especially if the docs are gonna be consumed publicly, 267 00:13:05,022 --> 00:13:09,032 to put in as much context and information around that, 268 00:13:10,102 --> 00:13:13,442 those scramble docs as you can. Whatever that document-- Whatever shape that 269 00:13:13,442 --> 00:13:17,582 documentation takes, provide context. Don't just provide a list of keys and 270 00:13:17,582 --> 00:13:18,022 values. 271 00:13:18,762 --> 00:13:23,102 I think that's very unhelpful, both from a consumer perspective and also for, like 272 00:13:23,102 --> 00:13:24,422 anyone that has to support that. 273 00:13:25,222 --> 00:13:26,142 So, um, 274 00:13:26,802 --> 00:13:29,462 that's been really good. It's been really interesting, as I said, looking at the 275 00:13:29,462 --> 00:13:34,122 varying degrees of, of quality. You know, one, one lender that I'm working with at 276 00:13:34,122 --> 00:13:37,702 the moment, we get the full documentation, we get the Swagger docs, we get the 277 00:13:37,702 --> 00:13:38,522 contextual docs. 278 00:13:39,382 --> 00:13:40,342 Very simple to go, 279 00:13:40,992 --> 00:13:41,302 "Hey, 280 00:13:42,262 --> 00:13:46,462 AI," you know, "Claude, here's the docs. Go and, like, build out the DTOs and the 281 00:13:46,462 --> 00:13:47,062 enums for me." 282 00:13:47,862 --> 00:13:51,042 And then we have to go through and, like, map our internal data structures onto the 283 00:13:51,042 --> 00:13:52,612 external docs, but that's, 284 00:13:53,282 --> 00:13:56,762 that's an easier process when you've got everything already in place. So, 285 00:13:57,642 --> 00:14:02,262 uh, very helpful having that because Claude very good at reading JSON spec and 286 00:14:02,262 --> 00:14:05,582 figuring out how to convert that into a, into a PHP DTO. So, 287 00:14:07,102 --> 00:14:08,802 that has been the main thing. We're-- We've, um, 288 00:14:09,542 --> 00:14:10,902 we departed our offshore team, 289 00:14:11,562 --> 00:14:14,822 uh, probably about a month ago now, six weeks ago. And so- 290 00:14:14,822 --> 00:14:15,012 Okay 291 00:14:16,002 --> 00:14:18,682 ... um, you know, we finally got to the point where we could bring on another 292 00:14:18,682 --> 00:14:22,892 developer locally who's picked up, you know, some, some of that work. So they're 293 00:14:22,892 --> 00:14:25,762 an intermediate developer, but they've, they've done an ex... Like, they've had an 294 00:14:25,762 --> 00:14:29,202 exceptional start. They ask really thoughtful questions. They've, like, 295 00:14:29,202 --> 00:14:32,002 they've been developing for 17 years or something like that, but they've come on, 296 00:14:32,642 --> 00:14:36,302 uh, from an agency background, so they
ask really good questions. They, they, you 297 00:14:36,302 --> 00:14:39,061 know, do the research. They go and look at things before they come and ask you for 298 00:14:39,062 --> 00:14:41,742 help, which has been, uh, very pleasing 299 00:14:42,522 --> 00:14:46,122 as a new starter, and they've, like, hit the ground running, doing all kinds of, of 300 00:14:46,122 --> 00:14:49,822 wonderful things. But in light of the offshore team being 301 00:14:50,482 --> 00:14:52,112 -departed from, from our world- -Yeah 302 00:14:52,112 --> 00:14:53,272 ... it means that 303 00:14:53,942 --> 00:14:58,662 the rest of the team is now picking up the IT helpdesk. And when I say IT helpdesk, 304 00:14:58,662 --> 00:15:02,082 it's like support of, of our main application. It's not like, "My printer's 305 00:15:02,082 --> 00:15:06,842 not working" helpdesk. It's specifically the application stuff. And so that's been, 306 00:15:06,842 --> 00:15:07,022 um, 307 00:15:07,662 --> 00:15:08,522 an interesting, 308 00:15:09,422 --> 00:15:09,602 uh, 309 00:15:10,422 --> 00:15:10,822 eye-opener, 310 00:15:11,562 --> 00:15:13,522 um, to, to look at that process and kind of figure out, you know, where people- 311 00:15:13,522 --> 00:15:17,662 So your software dev team is now picking up IT tickets, basically? Okay. 312 00:15:17,662 --> 00:15:23,242 Yeah. Yep. So, you know, this-- I, I went here, I got a, I got a 500 error or- 313 00:15:23,242 --> 00:15:24,542 -Yeah, yeah -... you know, this process doesn't work 314 00:15:24,542 --> 00:15:27,202 with that kind of stuff. So, um, I-- 315 00:15:28,722 --> 00:15:32,862 W- it was kind of picked up ad hoc by a couple of the other guys for the first few 316 00:15:32,862 --> 00:15:37,042 weeks, and then we, we spun the wheel to see, you know, who's- 317 00:15:37,042 --> 00:15:38,542 -Mm-hmm. Yeah. Who's next -... who's gonna do it to, like, figure 318 00:15:38,542 --> 00:15:38,692 -out- -Yeah 319 00:15:38,692 --> 00:15:41,662 ... what the, the schedule would be. And of course, I drew the short straw, so I 320 00:15:41,662 --> 00:15:43,022 got the first, first two weeks. 321 00:15:43,782 --> 00:15:44,942 And, uh, it's been good. I've had to do some front end- 322 00:15:44,942 --> 00:15:47,492 So you're doing it, like, two weeks at a time? The two weeks at a time. 323 00:15:47,492 --> 00:15:49,502 -Two weeks at a time, yeah. -And now are you-- Is that your only 324 00:15:49,502 --> 00:15:52,242 responsibility during that two weeks, is to answer tickets, or do you have other 325 00:15:52,242 --> 00:15:52,962 small features and stuff you're working on? 326 00:15:52,962 --> 00:15:56,702 Yeah, primarily, yeah, primarily it's that. There's also, like, any BAU tasks, 327 00:15:56,702 --> 00:16:01,522 so business as usual tasks that come up, you know, fixing things, miscellaneous bug 328 00:16:01,522 --> 00:16:04,922 fixes, et cetera, et cetera, that get raised by the, the product team and, and 329 00:16:04,922
--> 00:16:07,722 things like that. So there's no new feature work, and then I've... I'm, like, 330 00:16:07,722 --> 00:16:11,362 working on these lender integrations in the background as well between tickets. 331 00:16:11,362 --> 00:16:11,582 Um, 332 00:16:12,522 --> 00:16:15,682 but it's, it's the kind of thing that, like, I'll check it in the morning, I'll 333 00:16:15,682 --> 00:16:19,402 check it after lunch, I'll check it at the end of the day. It's not, like, a 334 00:16:19,402 --> 00:16:21,062 -full-time thing. There's- -Okay 335 00:16:21,062 --> 00:16:24,362 ... w- there's, there's, like... There's been a recurring issue that is, like, we 336 00:16:24,362 --> 00:16:26,802 know that it's an issue, but we can't really do anything about it 'cause we're 337 00:16:26,802 --> 00:16:28,582 -waiting on some other thing to- -Sure 338 00:16:28,582 --> 00:16:31,902 ... happen, like, at, at a business, like, at a board level for them to decide what, 339 00:16:31,902 --> 00:16:33,702 -what we're going to do. -Yeah. 340 00:16:33,702 --> 00:16:39,002 Um, so the, you know, so we get, like, 15 tickets a day that's like, "Couldn't do 341 00:16:39,002 --> 00:16:44,042 this because this related record was missing." So I went through and sent, sent 342 00:16:44,042 --> 00:16:48,162 the PR this morning to, quote-unquote, "fix that," which is basically, "If this 343 00:16:48,162 --> 00:16:53,582 is the exception, report it. Uh, don't report it. Log a warning and, like, don't 344 00:16:53,582 --> 00:16:56,102 report it in the, in the queue failing handler that we've got." 345 00:16:56,102 --> 00:16:57,662 -Yeah. -So that goes into the ticket systems. 346 00:16:57,662 --> 00:16:59,002 Like, we, we know it's a thing. 347 00:16:59,842 --> 00:17:02,882 There's not actually anything that we can do about it. There is a manual business 348 00:17:02,882 --> 00:17:07,242 process in place to circumvent this particular issue anyway, and has always 349 00:17:07,242 --> 00:17:12,582 been there. Um, so, like, just, just make this useless ticket go away. So that was 350 00:17:12,582 --> 00:17:14,842 -good fun. -Now, does your-- Does every time there's 351 00:17:14,842 --> 00:17:18,042 an error in your application, does it automatically create a ticket? 352 00:17:20,202 --> 00:17:24,642 No. So the tickets that are created are only from failing queue jobs. 353 00:17:24,642 --> 00:17:24,842 Okay. 354 00:17:25,742 --> 00:17:29,202 So we've got, like, in our app service provider, there's a queue dot op failing 355 00:17:29,882 --> 00:17:33,602 with a job failed event, like closure, and we go through there and it's like, if 356 00:17:33,602 --> 00:17:35,152 we're in, in, uh, in production, 357 00:17:35,962 --> 00:17:40,282 then go and, like, pull the information together and then log a helpdesk ticket. 358 00:17:41,022 --> 00:17:41,912 -Because the, uh- -Okay. Nice 359 00:17:41,912 --> 00:17:44,722 ... the queue failing ones can be a little bit more obscure, 360 00:17:46,042 --> 00:17:47,922 uh, in terms of, like, they're hidden 361 00:17:48,722 --> 00:17:50,902 if you're not looking for those things. Um- 362 00:17:50,902 --> 00:17:52,462 -Hmm -... and it's the kind of things that are 363 00:17:52,462 --> 00:17:52,732 like, 364 00:17:53,422 --> 00:17:58,662 we create folders in Box, like a folder hierarchy when we create a, a new, um, 365 00:17:58,662 --> 00:18:00,182 person in our CRM, 366 00:18:00,842 --> 00:18:03,892 and sometimes that fails. Like, sometimes Box goes down, and we don't- 367 00:18:03,892 --> 00:18:05,962 -Yeah -... have any visibility over that because 368 00:18:05,962 --> 00:18:08,782 this is, like, creating this happens in the background, and sometimes Box just 369 00:18:08,782 --> 00:18:12,422 goes down and we've got to go figure out, like, is it our issue? Is it their issue? 370 00:18:12,422 --> 00:18:14,642 -Have they logged a report? -Right. It's nothing anybody can report. 371 00:18:14,642 --> 00:18:15,522 -Do we need to communicate? -Yeah. 372 00:18:15,522 --> 00:18:15,942 -Yeah. -Yeah. 373 00:18:17,462 --> 00:18:21,982 Um, so tho- those kinds of things go in there. Um, and then there's also-- So 374 00:18:21,982 --> 00:18:26,082 there's the automated tickets, then there's also, um, we've got, like, level 375 00:18:26,082 --> 00:18:30,702 two support for the business side of things, which is, like, our, our users, 376 00:18:30,702 --> 00:18:35,202 our internal users, our external users reporting bugs. Um, you know, this doesn't 377 00:18:35,202 --> 00:18:38,702 work, et cetera, et cetera. Our level two person will go through and they'll, like, 378 00:18:38,702 --> 00:18:42,732 figure out is this a training thing? Is this an actual bug? Et cetera, et cetera. 379 00:18:42,732 --> 00:18:46,802 And then they log tickets. So that acts as, like, the funnel between the business 380 00:18:46,802 --> 00:18:49,802 and the engineering team to, to resolve those kinds of things. So- 381 00:18:51,146 --> 00:18:54,196 It's, it's funny the kinds of things that, that crop up. 382 00:18:54,196 --> 00:18:55,966 -Mm-hmm. -Like there was an issue with our Google 383 00:18:55,966 --> 00:18:56,446 address 384 00:18:57,306 --> 00:18:57,986 autocomplete 385 00:18:58,766 --> 00:18:59,476 -stuff. -Hmm. Okay. 386 00:18:59,476 --> 00:19:00,306 -Like if- -Yeah 387 00:19:00,306 --> 00:19:03,606 ... the way that we're doing it is that we've got like the Google address lookup 388 00:19:03,606 --> 00:19:07,076 is wrapped in a Mui component. So we're using Mui- 389 00:19:07,076 --> 00:19:09,826 -Okay -... which is the material UI framework for 390 00:19:09,826 --> 00:19:10,036 our front end. 391 00:19:10,916 --> 00:19:12,466 -Okay, gotcha. -Um, so 'cause they've got some good React 392 00:19:12,466 --> 00:19:14,696 support and all the front end's built in React. So we're using that, 393 00:19:15,626 --> 00:19:19,946 and the way that we had set it up was that if
there was only a single-- Like if you 394 00:19:19,946 --> 00:19:24,286 type your full address before, you know, the debounce and you get the, the result 395 00:19:24,286 --> 00:19:27,106 set back, and there was only one result that came back, 396 00:19:28,086 --> 00:19:32,926 it just wouldn't show any results. Um, which was, which was an interesting bug to 397 00:19:32,926 --> 00:19:33,926 find because 398 00:19:34,646 --> 00:19:38,406 by all accounts, it has been there since this address autocomplete functionality 399 00:19:38,406 --> 00:19:39,786 was put into the platform. 400 00:19:41,266 --> 00:19:44,476 And like no one's reported it, or it's been like an anecdotal- 401 00:19:44,476 --> 00:19:46,166 -Yeah -... report. Like, "Oh, such and such said 402 00:19:46,166 --> 00:19:49,186 this didn't work," but then someone went to try it and it was there. 403 00:19:49,186 --> 00:19:51,366 It's so hard. It's so hard to find those things, man. It's like, 404 00:19:52,026 --> 00:19:55,306 it's like you have to rely on a user to report it enough times that it actually 405 00:19:55,306 --> 00:19:57,926 becomes like a, "Oh, oh, that actually is a real thing." 406 00:19:57,926 --> 00:19:59,786 -Yeah. -Or like, you know, we had something that 407 00:19:59,786 --> 00:20:03,666 had worked perfectly forever, like since it was... Like it was the saved payment 408 00:20:03,666 --> 00:20:07,126 methods, like they would sync down from the payment provider and sync down the 409 00:20:07,126 --> 00:20:10,806 saved payment methods. Worked perfectly for years, years and years and years. 410 00:20:10,806 --> 00:20:12,706 -Yeah. -And so when people were like these, like 411 00:20:12,706 --> 00:20:15,606 this person called in and asked if they could remove, we could remove the saved 412 00:20:15,606 --> 00:20:18,366 payment methods. Can we do that? Like, yeah, sure. So we removed it. They're 413 00:20:18,366 --> 00:20:21,036 like, they logged in, they said it's still there. I'm like, "I'm looking at the rep- 414 00:20:21,036 --> 00:20:24,206 response from the payment provider. It's not ha- it's not there. Like there's 415 00:20:24,206 --> 00:20:25,276 -nothing there." -Yeah. 416 00:20:25,276 --> 00:20:29,846 And they're like, "Well, I'm saying there is." And I'm like, "Okay." So like I went 417 00:20:29,846 --> 00:20:33,266 to the banking team, I'm like, "Hey, I need you to go remove this." So they're 418 00:20:33,266 --> 00:20:36,806 like, "I'm showing you, like it's removed." I'm like, "Great." So I go back 419 00:20:36,806 --> 00:20:39,886 and I'm like, "Okay, sync the saved payment methods," and it's still there. 420 00:20:39,886 --> 00:20:45,286 And I'm like, "What the heck?" And so what ended up happening is like we missed, in 421 00:20:45,286 --> 00:20:47,466 one pull request, I'm sure it was Claude, 422 00:20:48,186 --> 00:20:51,306 decided that there was a plural that should have been singular, 'cause there 423 00:20:51,306 --> 00:20:52,236 -was only a single- -Right 424 00:20:52,236 --> 00:20:55,446 ... filter being applied. So why would you make that a plural like thing? 425 00:20:55,446 --> 00:20:57,046 -Mm-hmm. -And so it removed an S. 426 00:20:57,906 --> 00:21:00,966 -Ah. -Account filters. And it would... They, it 427 00:21:00,966 --> 00:21:03,266 changed it to account filter because we were only- 428 00:21:03,266 --> 00:21:05,586 -Right -... do- returning active, but account 429 00:21:05,586 --> 00:21:08,636 filters was the correct word you needed to use. 430 00:21:08,636 --> 00:21:10,386 -Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. -And so it just stopped working. It was 431 00:21:10,386 --> 00:21:11,026 -returning- -But it's still working 432 00:21:11,026 --> 00:21:12,126 -... all payment methods regard- -Right 433 00:21:12,126 --> 00:21:14,966 ... regardless of if you had re- removed them, deleted them, retired them. But 434 00:21:14,966 --> 00:21:18,426 yeah, it's like so hard for those sorts of things. Like the point you were making, 435 00:21:18,426 --> 00:21:18,586 like 436 00:21:19,426 --> 00:21:22,626 ap- apparently this has been happening since we released it. Like, you know what 437 00:21:22,626 --> 00:21:22,806 -I mean? -Yeah. 438 00:21:22,806 --> 00:21:25,516 -Since it was ever even in place. -Yeah. 439 00:21:25,516 --> 00:21:27,026 -So, yeah. -And it's like those address lookup things 440 00:21:27,026 --> 00:21:32,086 are very interesting because most people, I would say, are very slow to type. 441 00:21:33,306 --> 00:21:37,326 So they would type like number, street name, street type, and then they would 442 00:21:37,326 --> 00:21:40,206 stop at that point, and you would get a list of multiple results, and then you 443 00:21:40,206 --> 00:21:43,906 would often, 'cause, you know, Google, Google's, uh, address lookup is pretty 444 00:21:43,906 --> 00:21:45,446 good, you would get the one you wanted and you'd click on it- 445 00:21:45,446 --> 00:21:47,206 -Yeah, it's pretty quick -... and it'd be no problem. But if you 446 00:21:47,206 --> 00:21:48,946 type quickly or it's like- 447 00:21:49,586 --> 00:21:50,766 -Autofill -... uh, yeah, autofill. 448 00:21:50,766 --> 00:21:53,666 If it's like a saved profile with one password or something, yeah. 449 00:21:53,666 --> 00:21:57,186 Right. If you, yeah, if you autofill it, um, or you copy paste it, you know, you've 450 00:21:57,186 --> 00:21:59,106 -got an email from a, a client- -Yeah 451 00:21:59,106 --> 00:21:59,896 -... with their address in it- -Yeah 452 00:21:59,896 --> 00:22:02,906 ... and you copy paste it, and then you paste it in there, and you get an exact 453 00:22:02,906 --> 00:22:04,226 match. Well, it just didn't show. 454 00:22:05,126 --> 00:22:08,326 And I'm like, "Well, I don't know. I can't reproduce it. Like it's working," and 455 00:22:08,326 --> 00:22:11,926 then it's going, hang on. There is definitely a result coming back from the 456 00:22:11,926 --> 00:22:13,495 -API. I can
see it- -Yeah 457 00:22:13,495 --> 00:22:16,766 ... in the inspector, like there is one record there. So it gives you something to 458 00:22:16,766 --> 00:22:21,046 kind of pull on that thread. You go, "Hey, Claude, if there's only one result, 459 00:22:22,066 --> 00:22:25,466 I can see it coming back from the API, but it is not being set." And what it ended 460 00:22:25,466 --> 00:22:26,456 up being was like 461 00:22:27,666 --> 00:22:31,046 the m- the material components like default filter 462 00:22:32,186 --> 00:22:35,066 would look for an exact match or something, and because it was not there, 463 00:22:35,066 --> 00:22:38,405 it would just like scrub it from the list, and so you'd end up with no results, so. 464 00:22:39,906 --> 00:22:43,186 It's just, it's just funny the, the kind of things that turn up that's like, as I 465 00:22:43,186 --> 00:22:44,986 said, if it's anecdotally reported like, 466 00:22:45,666 --> 00:22:46,106 uh, a, 467 00:22:46,726 --> 00:22:51,106 um, what do they call them? BSM, a business sales manager, whatever they are 468 00:22:51,106 --> 00:22:51,946 -that like- -Hmm, okay 469 00:22:51,946 --> 00:22:54,846 ... con- you know, that they're responsible for a number of brokers in 470 00:22:54,846 --> 00:22:58,866 their portfolio, for example. They hear about it anecdotally, like this one person 471 00:22:58,866 --> 00:23:01,606 was reporting it, but they, they can't do anything or they don't chase it up or 472 00:23:01,606 --> 00:23:01,926 -they don't- -Right 473 00:23:01,926 --> 00:23:02,846 -... follow it up or whatever. -Yeah. 474 00:23:02,846 --> 00:23:04,246 And then, you know, eventually, 475 00:23:05,566 --> 00:23:07,146 um, you know, it was announced, "Hey," 476 00:23:08,006 --> 00:23:12,345 Michael was on, on helpdesk this week, so this BSM was then straight to me and, you 477 00:23:12,345 --> 00:23:15,766 know, and it's like, "Hey, can I just escalate this?" I'm like, "Can't escalate 478 00:23:15,766 --> 00:23:18,566 a ticket that doesn't exist." Like if there is no ticket log for this- ... 479 00:23:18,566 --> 00:23:20,176 -there's, there's no- -Yeah 480 00:23:20,176 --> 00:23:23,306 ... like don't just come to me with a problem. I'm like, "Where did they enter 481 00:23:23,306 --> 00:23:26,415 it? What did they type? What was the address that didn't work? Like please, any 482 00:23:26,415 --> 00:23:27,406 information would be helpful so I can open a ticket." 483 00:23:27,406 --> 00:23:30,766 You're the favorite IT guy. Everybody loves when the IT guy says that, when 484 00:23:30,766 --> 00:23:31,286 -you're like- -Yeah, yeah 485 00:23:31,286 --> 00:23:32,596 ... "Nope, sorry, I can't do anything about it." 486 00:23:32,596 --> 00:23:33,826 -And like, and like- -"You gotta write all this stuff up." 487 00:23:34,666 --> 00:23:37,086 I've, uh, I've been here four and a half years and I've never had to do any of the 488 00:23:37,086 --> 00:23:39,766 helpdesk stuff, so I'm like,
"I don't know what the actual process is here." 489 00:23:39,766 --> 00:23:40,756 -Yeah. -"I want to help you." 490 00:23:40,756 --> 00:23:42,706 -Yeah. -"But also I don't wanna do something that 491 00:23:42,706 --> 00:23:43,826 like the next person-" 492 00:23:44,586 --> 00:23:46,165 -Right -... "that does this is now going, 'Well, 493 00:23:46,166 --> 00:23:48,246 hang on. We're not, that's not the process. I shouldn't,'" you know? 494 00:23:48,246 --> 00:23:51,086 -Yeah, yeah. -So I was like, "Just if there's a ticket-" 495 00:23:51,086 --> 00:23:53,286 Put a ticket in. Yeah. Yeah, put a ticket 496 00:23:53,286 --> 00:23:54,326 -in. -There, there, there is a whole process for 497 00:23:54,326 --> 00:23:57,666 this that has never changed. It's like create the ticket. If it's like urgent, 498 00:23:57,666 --> 00:23:58,796 urgent, the sky is falling, 499 00:23:59,526 --> 00:24:02,186 then there's a process for escalation and there's a channel in Slack that you 500 00:24:02,186 --> 00:24:05,226 escalate, et cetera. So anyway, I was like, none of this had happened, and it's 501 00:24:05,226 --> 00:24:08,716 like it's only work, it's only broken sometimes and no one can tell me when. I'm 502 00:24:08,716 --> 00:24:12,866 like, it's not, the platform is not working. It's this one aspect of this one 503 00:24:12,866 --> 00:24:15,165 part of the thing is not working in some situations- 504 00:24:15,166 --> 00:24:16,946 -Yeah -... that you can't explain to me. So I'm 505 00:24:16,946 --> 00:24:17,396 like, I'm not, 506 00:24:18,206 --> 00:24:20,936 I'm not gonna spend a day trying to figure out what's going on. Provide me with some 507 00:24:20,936 --> 00:24:21,696 -details. -Yeah. The thing is, 508 00:24:22,326 --> 00:24:24,566 the thing is with that too is like whenever you make an exception, 509 00:24:25,206 --> 00:24:28,786 inevitably that person will now only ever talk to you- 510 00:24:28,786 --> 00:24:30,346 -Mm-hmm -... and they'll never put in the ticket. I 511 00:24:30,346 --> 00:24:31,466 -have a lady who does that. -Yeah. 512 00:24:31,466 --> 00:24:34,606 It's like, I think it's, I think it doesn't matter what her name is, but it's 513 00:24:34,606 --> 00:24:37,786 the same person, and every time she has a question or problem, she doesn't ever put 514 00:24:37,786 --> 00:24:40,256 -in the ticket. She just asks me directly. -Yeah. 515 00:24:40,256 --> 00:24:40,786 -And it's like- -Yeah 516 00:24:41,426 --> 00:24:44,746 ... I should just start being like, "No, you have to put a ticket in. Whoever's 517 00:24:44,746 --> 00:24:46,936 handling those will handle it." But like I'm not gonna sit here answering these 518 00:24:46,936 --> 00:24:48,105 -random questions. -Yeah. And it gets to the point that it's 519 00:24:48,106 --> 00:24:50,306 been like two years, five years, six years. 520 00:24:50,306 --> 00:24:51,786 -Yeah, yeah. -It's like it's too late now. You can't, 521 00:24:51,786 --> 00:24:52,346 you can't
say anymore, "Well, this is not the process." 522 00:24:52,346 --> 00:24:53,186 And honestly, I don't-- 523 00:24:54,026 --> 00:24:56,686 Yeah, it has gotten to the point too where I do not feel bad not answering her for 524 00:24:56,686 --> 00:24:59,220 like three days. It's like, well- You're gonna have to wait. 525 00:24:59,220 --> 00:25:00,390 -Yeah. -Like, I got other stuff I'm working on. 526 00:25:00,390 --> 00:25:01,540 -Like, you texted the- -Yeah, it was urgent. They had to bang on 527 00:25:01,540 --> 00:25:03,390 -some doors -... you texted, yeah, you messaged... 528 00:25:03,390 --> 00:25:07,010 Right. You messaged one of the most busy people in this department, and so you're 529 00:25:07,010 --> 00:25:07,950 -just gonna have to wait. -Mm-hmm. 530 00:25:07,950 --> 00:25:10,649 Like, or, or I'm gonna... If it's really important, you'll have to report it to 531 00:25:10,650 --> 00:25:13,350 your manager, and then they can put the ticket in or whatever. So anyway, doesn't 532 00:25:13,350 --> 00:25:13,650 -matter. -Yeah. 533 00:25:13,650 --> 00:25:15,360 -But- -So, you know, that's a, that's- 534 00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:17,710 -But, uh, yeah -... an interesting thing. I do-- My, my 535 00:25:17,710 --> 00:25:22,140 previous employer, when I started there, the first, I think, two weeks, 536 00:25:22,790 --> 00:25:26,430 I was on the phones. Like, I was talking to customers of the platform, 537 00:25:27,690 --> 00:25:28,110 s- which 538 00:25:28,830 --> 00:25:31,770 I think is, um, an underrated 539 00:25:33,570 --> 00:25:34,510 thing to do 540 00:25:35,310 --> 00:25:37,740 in businesses where you've got, like, external customers- 541 00:25:37,740 --> 00:25:39,860 -That's an insanely important- -... where they can actually contact you. 542 00:25:39,860 --> 00:25:41,490 -Yeah. -Whether it's, like, whether it's on the 543 00:25:41,490 --> 00:25:44,350 phones or if it's through, you know, a 544 00:25:45,110 --> 00:25:48,490 chat, if you've got support chat or a ticketing system, whatever. I think 545 00:25:49,210 --> 00:25:50,390 it's, it's a really 546 00:25:51,010 --> 00:25:51,990 valuable way 547 00:25:52,830 --> 00:25:57,530 to interact with real users of your platform and seeing the kinds of issues 548 00:25:57,530 --> 00:26:00,590 that they're coming up against, because it makes you much more considerate 549 00:26:01,450 --> 00:26:02,530 of what 550 00:26:03,570 --> 00:26:07,230 the people, the consumers of your application, and also the people that are 551 00:26:07,230 --> 00:26:11,070 supporting those users internal to your organization, like, the kinds of things 552 00:26:11,070 --> 00:26:12,550 that they face day to day. 553 00:26:13,670 --> 00:26:16,710 'Cause they might just consider it to be, like, a business as usual thing. "Oh, 554 00:26:16,710 --> 00:26:20,010 yeah, this person has caught up with this problem again," and it's like, "This is, 555 00:26:20,010 --> 00:26:23,570 this is the process we go through to fix it." It's like, well, how do we stop that 556 00:26:23,570 --> 00:26:24,170 kind of call from coming through in the first place? 557 00:26:24,170 --> 00:26:27,600 Yeah. Is that kind of-- 'Cause that's the question, like, when you say BAU, business 558 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,870 as usual, is that just like, "Hey, these are errors that happen occasionally that 559 00:26:30,870 --> 00:26:34,170 need to have manual intervention, but there's a solution, like, guide for how we 560 00:26:34,170 --> 00:26:35,010 -solve this problem." -Yeah. 561 00:26:35,010 --> 00:26:37,590 It's just not something that's worth solving automatically or- 562 00:26:37,590 --> 00:26:38,910 -Yeah -... unable to solve automatically? Okay, 563 00:26:38,910 --> 00:26:41,270 -gotcha. -But, but, like, sometimes those things, 564 00:26:41,270 --> 00:26:44,220 like, come up from the frontline people who then speak to the- 565 00:26:44,220 --> 00:26:45,800 -Yeah -... level two person, and they figure out, 566 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:50,290 "Oh, yeah, this is the, the process to, to do that." And so it stops at that level 567 00:26:50,290 --> 00:26:53,490 two support person. It's like, well, we could fix this properly so that this 568 00:26:53,490 --> 00:26:55,110 doesn't happen at all, rather than you having- 569 00:26:55,110 --> 00:26:56,550 -Yeah -... to go through these three manual steps 570 00:26:56,550 --> 00:26:58,470 -every time. -We just eliminate the problem, yeah, all 571 00:26:58,470 --> 00:26:59,030 -together. -Yeah. 572 00:26:59,850 --> 00:27:01,740 Which is, yeah, I, I think 573 00:27:02,590 --> 00:27:05,540 sometimes we can get a bit ahead of ourselves, 574 00:27:06,230 --> 00:27:06,530 um, 575 00:27:07,150 --> 00:27:09,910 as engineers and be like, "I don't have to talk to the customers." I'm like, no, I 576 00:27:09,910 --> 00:27:14,209 think, I think it's valuable, and I think it's been a very long time coming that, 577 00:27:14,210 --> 00:27:18,170 that this rotation has come in, and I think we will be better as a team for it. 578 00:27:18,170 --> 00:27:19,250 -Because sometimes- -Absolutely 579 00:27:19,890 --> 00:27:22,550 ... some of us, like myself included, we'd be like, "Oh, no, I don't." 580 00:27:23,690 --> 00:27:27,650 I mean, I don't typically touch any of the, the customer facing stuff. A lot of 581 00:27:27,650 --> 00:27:32,350 mine is, is integration work and back end and things like that. So I don't, I don't 582 00:27:32,350 --> 00:27:36,850 have lots of hands-on. And, like, within the first two days of doing this, I've 583 00:27:36,850 --> 00:27:40,429 already been submitting PRs and, and changing the front end, which is 584 00:27:41,230 --> 00:27:45,130 wildly inappropriate, I think, 'cause there's a good chance I break it 'cause I 585 00:27:45,130 --> 00:27:48,190 don't understand it enough to, to make changes to it. But Claude said it was 586 00:27:48,190 --> 00:27:51,850 fine, and
someone signed off on the PR, so I'm sure it's, it's fine. 587 00:27:53,050 --> 00:27:57,010 That's funny. We, um... It's like what you said was about it being, like, 588 00:27:57,010 --> 00:28:00,310 underrated. I do agree, and, like, we're right now working on sort of, 589 00:28:01,110 --> 00:28:01,430 um, 590 00:28:02,170 --> 00:28:07,690 your ability to be able to tier in your job title, in your job role, being able 591 00:28:07,690 --> 00:28:09,790 to, like, get like tier one, tier two, tier three, whatever. 592 00:28:09,790 --> 00:28:10,770 -Mm-hmm. -And, um, 593 00:28:11,570 --> 00:28:14,810 one of the requirements I'm looking at adding back in that we've previously had 594 00:28:14,810 --> 00:28:20,110 in there is to, like, certify for a role in another department. So basically, each 595 00:28:20,110 --> 00:28:24,270 department has a list of, like, you have to know how to do these things in order to 596 00:28:24,270 --> 00:28:27,300 be able to certify that you know how to do this job function. 597 00:28:27,300 --> 00:28:30,330 -Mm-hmm. -And so basically, it's for my team 598 00:28:30,330 --> 00:28:35,209 members, it would say you need to spend enough time in that department that you 599 00:28:35,210 --> 00:28:38,399 can actually go through and certify for that role. 600 00:28:38,399 --> 00:28:39,670 -Yeah. -And so you're gonna know literally 601 00:28:39,670 --> 00:28:42,270 everything that that team does. You're gonna sit in, like, almost like you're a 602 00:28:42,270 --> 00:28:45,790 new hire in that group for probably a week, and you're gonna go through, and 603 00:28:45,790 --> 00:28:46,550 you're gonna at least... 604 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:47,930 I'm trying to figure out, 605 00:28:48,910 --> 00:28:52,710 do I actually care that they can do it? Do I need to prove that the person can do 606 00:28:52,710 --> 00:28:53,420 -it? -Mm-hmm. 607 00:28:53,420 --> 00:28:56,770 Or do I just care more that they kind of know what they're doing and can speak 608 00:28:56,770 --> 00:28:57,520 -intelligently- -Yeah 609 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,540 ... about each of the processes? I think probably that's more important. 610 00:29:00,540 --> 00:29:01,860 -Yeah. -I don't actually want them to sit down and 611 00:29:01,860 --> 00:29:06,030 do the work and be proficient and, and be able to say, like, "Well, I can get X 612 00:29:06,030 --> 00:29:09,210 number of tasks done in, in this amount of time." I don't care about that. 613 00:29:09,210 --> 00:29:10,450 -Mm-hmm. -I just want them to know that when 614 00:29:10,450 --> 00:29:14,490 something breaks, they have a clue what that team is talking about. Or if a 615 00:29:14,490 --> 00:29:17,929 process is broken, they know which leader to go talk to, to figure out who- 616 00:29:17,929 --> 00:29:20,249 -Yeah -... who, you know, what's wrong. And so, 617 00:29:20,249 --> 00:29:24,490 um, yeah, I'm, I'm working on that because I do think you're right. Like, we... 618 00:29:25,450 --> 00:29:27,630 Sometimes we just kinda hole up in our little, 619 00:29:28,490 --> 00:29:33,220 uh, offices and, uh, don't really have to interact with those outside, uh, you know, 620 00:29:33,220 --> 00:29:33,580 -the people- -Yeah 621 00:29:33,580 --> 00:29:36,970 ... who are actually using the problems or the applications. And so there's a lot of 622 00:29:36,970 --> 00:29:40,570 things that are, like, efficiencies that could be built in, that if a developer- 623 00:29:40,570 --> 00:29:41,710 -Mm-hmm -... sat down for 10 minutes, they'd be 624 00:29:41,710 --> 00:29:44,180 like, "Oh, we could fix that real quick." Like, "No problem." 625 00:29:44,180 --> 00:29:44,810 -Yeah. -And so- 626 00:29:44,810 --> 00:29:46,330 -Yeah -... uh, I think a lot of efficiency 627 00:29:46,330 --> 00:29:48,500 -improvements and, uh, a lot of- -And a lot of the time we don't know that 628 00:29:48,500 --> 00:29:50,910 ... better understanding too. Right. Exactly. That's the thing. 629 00:29:50,910 --> 00:29:52,200 -'Cause, like, we don't see it ourselves. -Yeah. 'Cause they don't hand it up. 630 00:29:53,070 --> 00:29:56,230 They've, like, found a way to work around it. They're like, "Well, this is just what 631 00:29:56,230 --> 00:29:58,370 we do when that happens," and, and, you know. 632 00:29:59,010 --> 00:30:02,350 And that, that last job where I started, like, my first two week was answering 633 00:30:02,350 --> 00:30:02,890 phones. 634 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,750 -Yeah. -I was still in the support queue. Like, if 635 00:30:05,750 --> 00:30:09,690 there was a, an influx of calls or someone was off sick, my phone would still 636 00:30:09,690 --> 00:30:10,050 ring 637 00:30:10,870 --> 00:30:14,750 in those situations to, to help out, you know, 'cause it was a, it was an all hands 638 00:30:14,750 --> 00:30:16,470 on deck situation at that point. So 639 00:30:17,570 --> 00:30:19,310 yeah, it's, um, it's definitely interesting, 640 00:30:19,990 --> 00:30:20,240 -um- -Yeah 641 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:21,980 ... and it's, and it's valuable. And, and 642 00:30:22,790 --> 00:30:26,530 as you said, getting into a department and understanding what they're doing, you may 643 00:30:26,530 --> 00:30:29,030 become the, the point of contact for, like, that area- 644 00:30:29,030 --> 00:30:30,490 -That's right -... of the, the software 645 00:30:31,170 --> 00:30:35,310 that, that, you know, you're the bridge between the engineering team and that, 646 00:30:35,310 --> 00:30:39,150 that business unit if something c- happens. And then, you know, sometimes you 647 00:30:39,150 --> 00:30:42,030 could speak more intelligently to the problem that they're facing from an 648 00:30:42,030 --> 00:30:43,449 -engineering perspective. -Yeah. 649 00:30:43,450 --> 00:30:46,460 But you understand what they're facing because you've seen it from the other side 650 00:30:46,460 --> 00:30:50,050 -of the, of the coin as well, so. -Yeah. And I
actually have-- We've seen 651 00:30:50,050 --> 00:30:52,020 -that play out as well. -Um, yeah, our, our current organization is 652 00:30:52,020 --> 00:30:56,130 very good at, um, we do this thing, like, every three months called Leading Teams, 653 00:30:56,130 --> 00:30:56,910 which is like a, 654 00:30:57,570 --> 00:31:01,970 it's, it's an all-in where we sit down and we would, we would do, um, 655 00:31:02,930 --> 00:31:03,870 kind of like 656 00:31:05,146 --> 00:31:06,866 I don't wanna say, um, 657 00:31:07,826 --> 00:31:11,746 team building exercises, but it's like about, about building rapport and, and 658 00:31:11,746 --> 00:31:14,086 getting to know people that you don't really know 659 00:31:14,726 --> 00:31:17,206 day to day, like that I don't have much engagement with. But it- 660 00:31:17,206 --> 00:31:18,906 -Mm-hmm -... but you sit down and you get grouped 661 00:31:18,906 --> 00:31:21,946 up with people that you wouldn't normally talk with, and you would talk about, you 662 00:31:21,946 --> 00:31:25,286 know, what's going on in your life, what are you excited about, what, you know, 663 00:31:25,286 --> 00:31:28,906 what's challenging you at work, so that everyone kind of gets to know each other a 664 00:31:28,906 --> 00:31:33,546 bit more than just a name in Slack. And it's, it's... the idea being that, like, 665 00:31:33,546 --> 00:31:34,086 you build, 666 00:31:34,766 --> 00:31:40,266 um, high-performing teams around trust and communication and things like that. If, 667 00:31:40,266 --> 00:31:44,226 if I can see that, you know, Jake's tired, well, I can understand why, because, you 668 00:31:44,226 --> 00:31:45,216 -know, he's just had a baby- -Yeah 669 00:31:45,216 --> 00:31:47,766 ... or whatever else, you know, that kind of thing, that you kind of put yourself in 670 00:31:47,766 --> 00:31:48,646 their shoes, and you get 671 00:31:49,306 --> 00:31:53,506 a much more cohesive and, and, you know, high-performing team out of it across the 672 00:31:53,506 --> 00:31:55,366 board when you know that people are, 673 00:31:56,046 --> 00:32:00,746 um, speaking with each other beyond just, you know, punching cards and, and doing 674 00:32:00,746 --> 00:32:01,366 the job, so. 675 00:32:02,266 --> 00:32:04,866 Okay. One, one other thing that we've actually just been working on that goes, 676 00:32:04,866 --> 00:32:08,066 goes right along with what you're talking about, which is that people are more than 677 00:32:08,066 --> 00:32:11,126 the sum of their productivity at work, right? They, they... obviously, there's a 678 00:32:11,126 --> 00:32:14,846 lot of stuff going on outside of the walls of the building that they work in or if 679 00:32:14,846 --> 00:32:18,006 they work remote, right? So something we've been doing for, like, the last five 680 00:32:18,006 --> 00:32:20,566 years, which has been very interesting, is we do these weekly reports. 681 00:32:21,246 --> 00:32:23,466 -Mm-hmm. -And so on Friday,
a bunch of people do 682 00:32:23,466 --> 00:32:26,546 these, right, check-ins, but it's not just like, "Hey, what was your productivity?" 683 00:32:26,546 --> 00:32:29,846 It is like, "What is your stress?" And there's like... you ever seen those little 684 00:32:29,846 --> 00:32:34,506 pain charts that they use for kids where it's, like, the sad face, and then... You 685 00:32:34,506 --> 00:32:35,926 know what I mean? Or it's like, it starts out with, like- 686 00:32:35,926 --> 00:32:37,646 -Mm -... a pain level of zero. It has a green 687 00:32:37,646 --> 00:32:37,896 -face- -Mm 688 00:32:37,896 --> 00:32:38,656 -... with a little hi- -Mm-hmm 689 00:32:38,656 --> 00:32:39,626 -... happy kid. -Yeah. 690 00:32:39,626 --> 00:32:43,056 And then it's, like, the li- yellow, and then it goes all the way to the red. 691 00:32:43,056 --> 00:32:44,206 -Right, yeah. -And so you have the kid that point at, 692 00:32:44,206 --> 00:32:48,086 like, which face are you feeling right now, right? So they have a hard time 693 00:32:48,086 --> 00:32:51,066 associating, like, a word with it, but they know just looking at the picture, 694 00:32:51,066 --> 00:32:52,165 -that's how I'm feeling right now. -Yeah. 695 00:32:52,166 --> 00:32:52,926 -Right? -Yeah. 696 00:32:52,926 --> 00:32:56,866 And so instead of it being like a, "How was your stress this week?" and it being 697 00:32:56,866 --> 00:33:00,766 like low, uh, a little bit, like, it just uses the faces. 698 00:33:00,766 --> 00:33:01,966 -Mm-hmm. -It says like green. 699 00:33:01,966 --> 00:33:03,466 -Mm-hmm. -You know, I'm, like, low stress. I'm doing 700 00:33:03,466 --> 00:33:04,165 -good. -Yeah. 701 00:33:04,166 --> 00:33:08,146 Or a little bit less green, yellow, orange, red. And so they can report like, 702 00:33:08,146 --> 00:33:11,486 "Here's what my stress was," and then they can say what it, what it is. They can 703 00:33:11,486 --> 00:33:14,926 say, "How much my workload and how that was." And I'm trying to remember what the 704 00:33:14,926 --> 00:33:15,505 other one is. 705 00:33:16,106 --> 00:33:18,556 -Um, I think it's personal. Personal- -Yeah 706 00:33:18,556 --> 00:33:21,926 ... stress, workload. And then they talk about-- They, they have an opportunity to 707 00:33:21,926 --> 00:33:24,366 talk about each of those. And then there's what was the high for the week, what was 708 00:33:24,366 --> 00:33:26,026 the low for the week. Those are the questions. 709 00:33:27,006 --> 00:33:30,636 And so the only fill in the blank sort of things that they ha- that are required are 710 00:33:30,636 --> 00:33:34,606 the high and the low, and then they, they submit that. And then what we do is, as a 711 00:33:34,606 --> 00:33:38,526 leadership team, like the entire, like all the chiefs, all the directors meet 712 00:33:38,526 --> 00:33:42,766 every Monday, and anybody who is orange or below on any of those measures, we look 713 00:33:42,766 --> 00:33:45,136 at their, their high-low report and see like- 714 00:33:45,136 --> 00:33:46,146 -Mm -... how are things going for that person? 715 00:33:46,146 --> 00:33:50,226 Is there anything we can do to help that person? Whatever. Um, but those aggregate 716 00:33:50,226 --> 00:33:53,226 reports is what we're building right now, which has been pretty cool. So being able 717 00:33:53,226 --> 00:33:56,306 to see like, "Hey, what's the trend line for this department? How are they feeling? 718 00:33:56,306 --> 00:33:59,035 Is stress, like overall for that entire team?" 719 00:33:59,035 --> 00:34:01,286 -Mm. -Like, is the entire team sort of feeling a 720 00:34:01,286 --> 00:34:04,226 certain thing? And then we can do sentiment analysis on like, let's look at 721 00:34:04,226 --> 00:34:07,166 all the, an aggregate of their reports. Hey, Claude, like... Or not Claude, we 722 00:34:07,166 --> 00:34:11,076 don't use Claude for this, but our internal AI tool. Uh, hey- 723 00:34:11,076 --> 00:34:14,146 -Yeah -... tell me, summarize the, the sentiment 724 00:34:14,146 --> 00:34:16,516 of these people here, right? What are we feeling about this? 725 00:34:16,516 --> 00:34:18,726 -Mm-hmm. -And so, um, that's been pretty cool. But, 726 00:34:18,726 --> 00:34:23,035 um, yeah, to, to speak to the point that you're making, which is, you know, it's... 727 00:34:23,035 --> 00:34:26,026 Most of the time, the people who they're filling those reports out, it's, it's 728 00:34:26,026 --> 00:34:29,426 hardly ever work stuff. I mean, I would say probably half the time it's work, and 729 00:34:29,426 --> 00:34:33,906 other times it's like, "My dog is having surgery because whatever, whatever," or, 730 00:34:33,906 --> 00:34:37,506 you know, "My kid got sick this week, and like, I had to take a day off work. I'm 731 00:34:37,506 --> 00:34:38,346 -feeling behind." -Mm. 732 00:34:38,346 --> 00:34:40,846 And we can be like, "Hey, manager, can you, like, jump in and help them with 733 00:34:40,846 --> 00:34:42,956 their work because they, you know, they had a sick kid this week?" 734 00:34:42,956 --> 00:34:43,726 -Yeah. -And stuff that- 735 00:34:43,726 --> 00:34:44,726 -Yeah -... you just would never know about 736 00:34:44,726 --> 00:34:46,315 -otherwise. And so, yeah, it's- -Yeah 737 00:34:46,315 --> 00:34:49,086 -... it's been pretty cool to do that. -Yeah, it's the kind of thing that, you 738 00:34:49,146 --> 00:34:52,506 know, you work with these people all the time, but they're like work personality, 739 00:34:52,506 --> 00:34:54,186 -and that's all you see. But- -Yeah 740 00:34:54,186 --> 00:34:55,136 ... knowing, you know, 741 00:34:55,786 --> 00:34:58,506 knowing that someone's unwell, you just pick up the phone and you can text them. 742 00:34:58,506 --> 00:35:01,186 You know, if something, if they're not at work or if, like, someone's sick or 743 00:35:01,186 --> 00:35:03,815 someone, you know, something's happened, you can just pick up a phone and say, 744
00:35:03,815 --> 00:35:04,026 "Hey, 745 00:35:05,486 --> 00:35:08,006 don't need to tell me what's going on, but I heard that, you know, you're not gonna 746 00:35:08,006 --> 00:35:11,456 be there or stuff's tough. Hope everything's okay." 747 00:35:11,456 --> 00:35:12,926 -Yeah, yeah. -Like, just, just the human connection 748 00:35:12,926 --> 00:35:14,086 beyond just, um, 749 00:35:14,986 --> 00:35:15,526 the work thing 750 00:35:16,266 --> 00:35:18,586 -is really cool. -You got it. You got it. All right, man, 751 00:35:18,586 --> 00:35:22,746 what else do we got here? Am I... I was gonna say that, uh, I, you know, my, that 752 00:35:22,746 --> 00:35:26,945 three minutes lasted about 25 minutes, but my, uh- 753 00:35:26,945 --> 00:35:28,126 -You got extra time -... my son was, 754 00:35:28,626 --> 00:35:32,586 he was... Yeah, I got extra time. He was at the theater and was like... I asked him 755 00:35:32,586 --> 00:35:34,966 before we started our podcast, I was like, "Hey, what time are you gonna need 756 00:35:34,966 --> 00:35:37,106 to be picked up?" He's like, "I don't know." I'm like, "How far are you along in 757 00:35:37,106 --> 00:35:40,346 the movie?" He's like, "I don't know." I'm like, "Okay. Well, the runtime for 758 00:35:40,346 --> 00:35:43,906 this movie is like an hour and 45," and he's, was supposed to be there at 8:00, 759 00:35:43,906 --> 00:35:47,306 but the previews take a half hour, so like, I should be good until like 10:20, 760 00:35:47,306 --> 00:35:47,476 you know? 761 00:35:48,226 --> 00:35:51,996 Well, then he texted at like, you know, 5:00 till 10:00, was like, "Hey, I need to 762 00:35:51,996 --> 00:35:53,726 be picked up." Like, oh, of course you do. 763 00:35:54,366 --> 00:35:57,246 And so anyway, I was like, "I'll come get you in a couple minutes." My wife was 764 00:35:57,246 --> 00:36:00,826 like, "I'll go get him." So anyway, thank you to my wonderful wife who went and got 765 00:36:00,826 --> 00:36:00,986 him 766 00:36:01,666 --> 00:36:05,086 -late at night so that I didn't have to- -Things for me to look forward to, I guess 767 00:36:05,086 --> 00:36:07,286 ... and I could stay. Yeah, exactly. Dude, it's, it's crazy. Like, we're trying to 768 00:36:07,286 --> 00:36:09,666 figure out, like, curfew times and stuff. Like, you're thankful that they have 769 00:36:09,666 --> 00:36:12,746 friends to go hang out with. They're good kids. I know the kids that he's hanging 770 00:36:12,746 --> 00:36:13,936 -out with. But it is- -Yeah 771 00:36:13,936 --> 00:36:17,046 ... like trying to balance like, okay, what is a reasonable time to be home, you 772 00:36:17,046 --> 00:36:17,886 -know? -Yeah. 773 00:36:17,886 --> 00:36:20,946 -Um, you know, and he's like, he's 15. -And balancing against like what time the 774 00:36:20,946 --> 00:36:23,826 other kids are going to be home and things like that as well. 775 00:36:23,826 --> 00:36:24,966 -Totally. Yeah. -Like we don't want to be the one that's 776 00:36:24,966 --> 00:36:28,446 -always too early, but also... Yeah. -Right. But he does tend to hang out with 777 00:36:28,446 --> 00:36:31,026 kids who are a little bit older, so like the other kids have their licenses, so 778 00:36:31,026 --> 00:36:32,776 like they can get home whenever they want, and he doesn't. 779 00:36:32,776 --> 00:36:34,246 -Mm-hmm. Yeah. -And so we have to run to pick him up and 780 00:36:34,246 --> 00:36:34,716 stuff. So it's like, 781 00:36:35,726 --> 00:36:37,826 it's, uh, yeah, it's, it's, um, 782 00:36:38,786 --> 00:36:41,986 it is good. I mean, like, you want him to go be with friends. You don't want him to 783 00:36:41,986 --> 00:36:44,146 just be sitting at home bored by themselves. 784 00:36:44,146 --> 00:36:45,286 -Mm-hmm. -But it's just- 785 00:36:45,286 --> 00:36:46,766 -Mm-hmm -... you know, we're in this weird spot 786 00:36:46,766 --> 00:36:49,606 right now where he's doing that and he's out with friends, but like he doesn't have 787 00:36:49,606 --> 00:36:51,226 -his license yet. So- -Yeah 788 00:36:51,226 --> 00:36:53,666 ... four months he'll have his license, and it'll be a little bit easier for him 789 00:36:53,666 --> 00:36:56,286 to be able to get around. But then you have to worry about is he being safe? Is 790 00:36:56,286 --> 00:36:58,326 -it whatever? All those things and stuff. -Yeah, he's driving. He's gonna get pulled 791 00:36:58,326 --> 00:36:59,645 -over, all this kind of stuff. -You got it. 792 00:36:59,646 --> 00:37:00,706 -Crazy. -You got it. 793 00:37:00,706 --> 00:37:02,806 -Crazy times. Um- -And he likes fast cars, so you know. 794 00:37:04,666 --> 00:37:07,306 He can get, he can have a fast car when he can buy his own. Um- 795 00:37:07,306 --> 00:37:08,786 That is correct 796 00:37:10,742 --> 00:37:12,652 -One last thing. I am leaving for Boston- -Okay, let's hear it 797 00:37:12,652 --> 00:37:13,502 -... for Laracon US- -Yes 798 00:37:13,502 --> 00:37:15,292 ... in 24 days. 799 00:37:16,242 --> 00:37:21,002 I have sussed out what I, as an Australian, believe will be good coffee. 800 00:37:22,242 --> 00:37:25,602 I've got a number... I sent a few of these recommendations to Gen Z Abby, 801 00:37:26,202 --> 00:37:29,921 uh, or Gen Zed Abby, 'cause we don't say Z in Australia. Um- 802 00:37:29,922 --> 00:37:33,862 -Okay, Gen Zed. -But Gen Zed. Uh, so I've sussed out a 803 00:37:33,862 --> 00:37:37,602 couple of places that I think will be good coffee. Uh, donuts are apparently a very 804 00:37:37,602 --> 00:37:39,172 -big thing in Boston- -Oh, boy 805 00:37:39,172 --> 00:37:41,042 ... so I've sussed out a few donut places. 806 00:37:41,042 --> 00:37:45,322 -Boston Cream. Boston Cream donuts, yeah. -Yep. And, uh, a friend of mine who is a 807 00:37:45,322 --> 00:37:50,402 big Boston man, loves the, uh, Celtics, the New England Patriots, the Boston Red 808 00:37:50,402 --> 00:37:50,742 -Sox. -Red Sox, yeah. 809 00:37:50,742 --> 00:37:55,302
He's all in on Boston sports. Um, he's suggested to me a place to go and get some 810 00:37:55,302 --> 00:37:57,962 -cannoli. So I suggested that to- -Oh, right. Let's go 811 00:37:57,962 --> 00:38:00,222 -... to you guys last night- -I saw that, yeah 812 00:38:00,222 --> 00:38:03,102 ... in the group chat. So we're doing that the day after. We're gonna go and check 813 00:38:03,102 --> 00:38:04,271 -out these cannoli. -Big fan. 814 00:38:04,271 --> 00:38:04,862 -I'm going with Abby. -Yes. 815 00:38:05,482 --> 00:38:07,082 -So- -No, I'm going, dude. I'll be there. 816 00:38:07,082 --> 00:38:09,562 -Good. All right. Fantastic. -I just hope they have, I hope they have, 817 00:38:09,562 --> 00:38:09,942 uh... 818 00:38:10,902 --> 00:38:13,562 Oh, that's not gonna be funny anymore. I lost it. What's the name of that crap that 819 00:38:13,562 --> 00:38:14,122 you guys eat? 820 00:38:15,902 --> 00:38:16,942 -The spread. -Vegemite? 821 00:38:16,942 --> 00:38:17,602 The spread. 822 00:38:17,922 --> 00:38:19,181 -Vegemite. -A Vegemite cannoli. 823 00:38:19,182 --> 00:38:21,852 On the cannoli. Yeah, Vegemite cannolis. No, put some Vegemite on that bad boy. 824 00:38:21,852 --> 00:38:26,242 I found this, I found this one place that does a, um, a rosemary sea salt 825 00:38:27,862 --> 00:38:28,942 -bagel- -Oh, gosh 826 00:38:28,942 --> 00:38:30,922 -... with a bacon- -I'm literally, like, drooling right now 827 00:38:30,922 --> 00:38:34,022 -just hearing the words -... bacon and scallion schmear. So I 828 00:38:34,682 --> 00:38:37,062 -can't get my nose up. -Oh, my gosh. That sounds amazing. Now, 829 00:38:37,062 --> 00:38:38,522 I've heard traffic is absolutely terrible, 830 00:38:39,242 --> 00:38:41,702 so I considered, I, uh, here's the deal. 831 00:38:42,462 --> 00:38:45,022 Not seriously, but I did consider, like, bringing my Onewheel. 832 00:38:45,982 --> 00:38:46,242 -I- -But, 833 00:38:46,882 --> 00:38:49,312 but the whole point is to be walking with the people you're with- 834 00:38:49,312 --> 00:38:51,242 -Yeah, just gonna walk everywhere -... not to, like, be speeding around, you 835 00:38:51,242 --> 00:38:51,442 -know? -Mm-hmm. 836 00:38:51,442 --> 00:38:52,982 So it's, like, I don't know. Yeah, I'm not gonna do it. 837 00:38:52,982 --> 00:38:56,322 There's one place that's got these maple bacon donuts, and I was like- 838 00:38:56,322 --> 00:38:57,662 -Yes -... that's a 30-minute walk away. 839 00:38:57,662 --> 00:38:58,312 -Those are- -And thank God- 840 00:38:58,312 --> 00:38:59,622 -Oh, yeah -... it's a 30-minute walk. 841 00:38:59,922 --> 00:39:03,702 -Yeah. Dude, I'd go with that. -Also, also apparently apple cider donuts 842 00:39:03,702 --> 00:39:04,672 -are available here- -Okay 843 00:39:04,672 --> 00:39:06,862 ... which, you know, as a Michigan man, this is a thing. 844 00:39:06,862 --> 00:39:09,282 Yes, absolutely. Apple cider donuts, for sure. 845 00:39:09,282 --> 00:39:10,222 -I was doing my best
California- -We used to have a, uh, 846 00:39:10,882 --> 00:39:14,002 yeah, we used to have a orchard that we would stop, it was on our way to church 847 00:39:14,002 --> 00:39:17,422 and on our way to school, and every year when they'd be making cider, we would go 848 00:39:17,422 --> 00:39:18,962 -get apple cider donuts and cider. -Mm-hmm. 849 00:39:18,962 --> 00:39:19,662 It was amazing. 850 00:39:20,582 --> 00:39:22,942 -So good. -Yeah. All of these things. But if you, if 851 00:39:22,942 --> 00:39:26,702 you are more local to Boston than what I am, 'cause pretty much everyone would be 852 00:39:26,702 --> 00:39:30,472 more local to Boston than what I am, but, uh, if you have recommendations for coffee 853 00:39:30,472 --> 00:39:32,902 or donuts or cannoli, 854 00:39:33,682 --> 00:39:37,982 uh, I'm happy to walk to the North End from, from SoWa, where we, where I'm 855 00:39:37,982 --> 00:39:38,562 staying, so- 856 00:39:39,282 --> 00:39:40,862 Or a Sam Adams lager. 857 00:39:41,822 --> 00:39:42,642 Lager. 858 00:39:43,572 --> 00:39:44,092 -Lager. -Jeez. 859 00:39:44,991 --> 00:39:46,482 Anyway, looking forward to it. Um, 860 00:39:48,002 --> 00:39:51,562 24 days away. It's sneaking up quickly. The kids are last week of school. 861 00:39:51,562 --> 00:39:53,562 -It is. -Then they've got two weeks of holidays, 862 00:39:53,622 --> 00:39:57,602 uh, for end of term two, and then they'll be back for a week, and then I'm off. So 863 00:39:58,382 --> 00:40:00,342 -it's coming up quickly. -We need to talk about the Australian 864 00:40:00,342 --> 00:40:03,402 schedule for school sometime. We need to put that on the list for the next time. I 865 00:40:03,402 --> 00:40:05,282 don't understand how it works for you guys. I'm curious. 866 00:40:05,282 --> 00:40:08,082 We have the summer holidays when it's summer, the same way that you have summer 867 00:40:08,082 --> 00:40:09,582 -holidays when it's summer. -But for how long? 868 00:40:11,082 --> 00:40:12,202 Summer holidays are six weeks. 869 00:40:13,002 --> 00:40:15,482 Six weeks. So yeah, so we're way off, we're off for longer than that. That's 870 00:40:15,482 --> 00:40:16,002 -what I'm saying. -Mm-hmm. 871 00:40:16,002 --> 00:40:19,972 Like, I feel like you guys take more frequent, shorter breaks. 872 00:40:19,972 --> 00:40:22,822 -Yeah. -We take less frequent, but longer breaks. 873 00:40:22,822 --> 00:40:24,202 -We have- -So, like, in the summertime, my kids are 874 00:40:24,202 --> 00:40:25,062 off from May- 875 00:40:25,742 --> 00:40:27,831 -... four terms in the school year -... they're off May, June, July. They 876 00:40:27,831 --> 00:40:28,822 don't go back till August. 877 00:40:29,542 --> 00:40:30,962 -Geez. -Yeah, so they're off for like- 878 00:40:30,962 --> 00:40:31,902 -That's a long time -... three months, basically. 879 00:40:31,902 --> 00:40:33,611 -Chilling. -Not really, but, like, two and a half 880 00:40:33,611 --> 00:40:33,962 months. 881 00:40:34,602 --> 00:40:34,862 What are they doing for three months? What are you doing for three months? 882 00:40:34,862 --> 00:40:38,482 Hanging out. It's summertime, dude. Just chilling. Like, it's great. Like, it's, 883 00:40:38,482 --> 00:40:39,152 -it's wonderful. -Yes, it's- 884 00:40:39,152 --> 00:40:40,681 You get a whole break for the whole summer 885 00:40:40,681 --> 00:40:40,681 ... 886 00:40:41,462 --> 00:40:45,102 I get it. It's great, but, like, this is the thing that I don't understand. The 887 00:40:45,102 --> 00:40:46,542 kids have 12 weeks 888 00:40:47,182 --> 00:40:48,102 of holidays a year. 889 00:40:48,882 --> 00:40:51,762 -Hmm. Okay. -Most jobs give you four weeks of annual 890 00:40:51,762 --> 00:40:52,202 leave a year. 891 00:40:53,002 --> 00:40:53,732 -Yeah, right. -So, like, what are you doing for the other 892 00:40:53,732 --> 00:40:55,682 -eight weeks? -So you're... Yeah, I get you. I get you. 893 00:40:55,682 --> 00:40:59,482 You're saying, like, how do parents be parents for 12 weeks at a... Or, you know, 894 00:40:59,482 --> 00:41:01,582 -for, like, in a row. -Mm-hmm. 895 00:41:01,582 --> 00:41:04,152 Just like, yeah, I get that. That makes sense. Um, well, so- 896 00:41:04,152 --> 00:41:07,182 So we, like, we've got out of school programs and things like that to go to 897 00:41:07,182 --> 00:41:07,822 -during the day- -Yeah, yeah 898 00:41:07,822 --> 00:41:09,831 ... so we're not just sitting at home all... And our kids are too young. 899 00:41:09,831 --> 00:41:10,932 -And they have those here. -Like, they can't, they can't just go 900 00:41:10,932 --> 00:41:12,072 -places. -There's summer camp programs and... 901 00:41:12,962 --> 00:41:13,142 Yeah. 902 00:41:13,822 --> 00:41:16,542 -Yeah. -Um, but it's like, you know, parents need 903 00:41:16,542 --> 00:41:19,482 to... Like, my mom was a stay-at-home mom, so the- 904 00:41:19,482 --> 00:41:20,752 -Yeah, same. Our- -... we were just home with mom during the 905 00:41:20,752 --> 00:41:21,222 -holidays. -Yeah. Mm-hmm. 906 00:41:21,222 --> 00:41:22,392 But, like, we both work, 907 00:41:23,722 --> 00:41:26,242 so it's like, you know, what do you do? Fortunately, I work from home- 908 00:41:26,242 --> 00:41:27,581 -That's definitely- -... so it's okay for the kids to be here. 909 00:41:27,581 --> 00:41:30,202 But, um, yeah. So we've got four term... Let's do this quickly, and then we can 910 00:41:30,202 --> 00:41:30,531 -wrap up. -Okay, let's hear it. 911 00:41:30,531 --> 00:41:31,942 -We've got four terms a year. -Okay. 912 00:41:31,942 --> 00:41:34,562 Terms are typically between 10 and 11 weeks. 913 00:41:34,562 --> 00:41:34,742 Okay. 914 00:41:35,622 --> 00:41:37,932 So every 10, 10 to 11 weeks, they then have a two-week- 915 00:41:37,932 --> 00:41:40,032 So two and a half months. You have a two and a half month term- 916 00:41:40,032 --> 00:41:40,582 -Yep -... basically. 917 00:41:40,582 --> 00:41:41,462 -Yep. -Yep, okay.
918 00:41:41,462 --> 00:41:41,512 Yep. 919 00:41:42,362 --> 00:41:45,142 Um, as you get older, then we do, you know, semesters. So you've got semester 920 00:41:45,142 --> 00:41:48,712 one is term one, term two, and then semester two is term three and term four. 921 00:41:48,712 --> 00:41:50,742 -Okay. -Which is relevant more for high school, 922 00:41:50,742 --> 00:41:53,752 'cause you, you will change subjects midyear and things like that, you know- 923 00:41:53,752 --> 00:41:55,661 -Yeah -... to kind of prepare you for post-high 924 00:41:55,662 --> 00:41:55,842 -school- -Yep 925 00:41:55,842 --> 00:41:56,542 ... and things like that. 926 00:41:57,362 --> 00:41:58,182 Um, 927 00:41:58,242 --> 00:41:59,642 yeah, that's, that's pretty much what it is. 928 00:41:59,642 --> 00:42:01,842 -And so, and so you do- -And then six weeks... So it's usually, 929 00:42:01,842 --> 00:42:03,122 -like, the week before- -Six weeks in between each term? 930 00:42:04,162 --> 00:42:05,342 Uh, two weeks be- between terms. 931 00:42:06,002 --> 00:42:07,041 Two weeks between terms. Okay. Okay. Gotcha. 932 00:42:07,042 --> 00:42:09,622 Yeah, and six weeks at the end of the year. So it's usually the week before 933 00:42:09,622 --> 00:42:11,142 Christmas until the end of January. 934 00:42:12,822 --> 00:42:15,362 Okay. The week before Christmas to end of January. Okay, that makes sense. So it's 935 00:42:15,362 --> 00:42:19,162 like you have a Christmas break, and then through January you're off, and that's 936 00:42:19,162 --> 00:42:19,902 like your summer break. 937 00:42:20,642 --> 00:42:22,022 -Yeah, that's the summer break. -Yeah. Yeah. 938 00:42:22,022 --> 00:42:22,602 -And then- -That makes sense 939 00:42:22,602 --> 00:42:23,481 -... back to it. -Yep. 940 00:42:23,482 --> 00:42:26,102 -Get out of the house, kids. -Yep, yep. And it is funny that, like, you 941 00:42:26,102 --> 00:42:29,082 know, your breaks line up with your Christmas for summer. 942 00:42:29,962 --> 00:42:32,492 You know, for us, it's the middle of winter, and so it's like- 943 00:42:32,492 --> 00:42:33,802 -Mm-hmm -... it doesn't make... You know, the, 944 00:42:33,802 --> 00:42:36,982 people, kids don't wanna, like, take a six-week break in the middle of winter. 945 00:42:36,982 --> 00:42:38,112 -Like- -No, that's right. Yeah, so you get a 946 00:42:38,112 --> 00:42:39,742 -summer break. -So we do, we take a little bit shorter 947 00:42:39,742 --> 00:42:42,062 break. Yeah, we take, like, a two-week break at Christmas time. 948 00:42:42,702 --> 00:42:44,022 -Mm-hmm. -Uh, Christmas and New Year, and then 949 00:42:44,022 --> 00:42:47,082 you're back at it, you know. You get, like, a couple days for Thanksgiving or I 950 00:42:47,082 --> 00:42:48,032 guess maybe a week, I don't know. 951 00:42:49,182 --> 00:42:51,462 I don't know. I can't remember all of it, but, uh, yeah- 952 00:42:51,462 --> 00:42:51,532 I don't know. You're always away on vacation anyway 953
00:42:51,532 --> 00:42:55,882 ... my wife stays at home too. My wife stays at home. Just get out of here. Andy, 954 00:42:55,882 --> 00:42:58,312 Andy Hinkle said, he was like, "Oh, Michael was like-" 955 00:42:58,312 --> 00:43:00,022 -He was taking the piss, yeah. -"... Michael was giving you crap about 956 00:43:00,022 --> 00:43:02,161 never working the other day." It's so funny. 957 00:43:03,262 --> 00:43:05,981 -It's true. -Oh, my word. He's just... It's not true. 958 00:43:05,982 --> 00:43:07,742 -It's not true. I- -I feel like you're going away all the 959 00:43:07,742 --> 00:43:08,042 time. 960 00:43:08,762 --> 00:43:12,622 When? Like, what did I do? I, I'm sc- Like, okay, so, like, give me the most 961 00:43:12,622 --> 00:43:14,532 -recent- -These holidays, all of these vacations. I, 962 00:43:14,532 --> 00:43:16,102 -I was like- -Well, I mean, like, like the one, the one 963 00:43:16,102 --> 00:43:17,422 -recent one- -... I can't, I've gone to visit family in 964 00:43:17,422 --> 00:43:18,942 -Michigan, like- -No. 965 00:43:18,942 --> 00:43:20,642 -You were just away. -Okay, well, that was, that was over a 966 00:43:20,642 --> 00:43:24,971 weekend. That was over a weekend. That wasn't, like, anything, like, I wasn't off 967 00:43:24,971 --> 00:43:27,722 -of work for that. I left for a weekend. -Don't go away. Don't go away for weekends. 968 00:43:27,722 --> 00:43:29,202 Just stay at home. It's too much hassle to go away for two days. 969 00:43:29,202 --> 00:43:32,462 Well, dude, it's like I haven't been, I haven't been to Michigan for, 970 00:43:33,162 --> 00:43:38,002 like, years, years. And so I needed to get up there and see some family. So I went 971 00:43:38,002 --> 00:43:43,342 over a weekend. So that was that. The golf thing was for work. So that was that. So 972 00:43:43,342 --> 00:43:47,062 there's none, no off work time for either of those. Just... 973 00:43:48,962 --> 00:43:52,802 So I don't wanna hear about it, okay? And I do have, I do have actual vacations 974 00:43:52,802 --> 00:43:55,362 coming up. Like, we're going to Cedar Point in a couple weeks. 975 00:43:55,362 --> 00:43:55,762 Mm-hmm. 976 00:43:56,402 --> 00:43:57,702 -So that'll be fun. -I don't know. 977 00:43:57,702 --> 00:43:58,202 That's great fun. 978 00:43:59,242 --> 00:43:59,882 -All right. -All right. All right. 979 00:43:59,882 --> 00:44:01,162 -Let's wrap this up before we- -This sounds good. All right, let's wrap 980 00:44:01,162 --> 00:44:01,872 -it. Go ahead -... damage our friendship. 981 00:44:02,022 --> 00:44:03,262 Uh, what, what is our... 982 00:44:04,982 --> 00:44:08,402 Damage our friendship based on my PTO schedule? How is this gonna work? 983 00:44:09,582 --> 00:44:11,692 -You can shake my friendship. -Are you jealous of my PTO? Is that what... 984 00:44:11,692 --> 00:44:12,342 What is this? 985 00:44:12,982 --> 00:44:13,412 -I am. I am. -Okay. All right. 986 00:44:13,412 --> 00:44:14,982 I'm not willing to find out. Let's, let's- 987 00:44:14,982 --> 00:44:16,122 -Okay -... let's cut it off. 988 00:44:16,622 --> 00:44:18,522 -196. -All right. All right. Let's, uh, 196. 989 00:44:18,522 --> 00:44:19,782 Thanks for sh- hanging out with us, folks. 990 00:44:20,462 --> 00:44:20,842 Uh, 991 00:44:21,702 --> 00:44:24,082 northmeets south.audio/196 for show notes. 992 00:44:25,142 --> 00:44:29,152 Hit us up on X, @michaeldorinda, @jacobbennett, and, uh, rate us up on your 993 00:44:29,152 --> 00:44:31,462 podcatcher of choice. Five stars would be incredible. Thanks, everybody. We'll see 994 00:44:31,462 --> 00:44:32,102 you next time. Peace. 995 00:44:33,142 --> 00:44:35,342 Donuts, coffee, cannoli. Let's go. 996 00:44:54,002 --> 00:44:58,982 See you there. Bye.
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