Volledige transcriptie van S01E15: Consequences Be Damned!

Mak: you Thank It's difficult to hold that ambiguity. And it's important, I think, to recognize the ambiguity. Otherwise, once again, it just doesn't make any sense. If it's all just dumb and bad, what is it that drew us in to begin with? There are obviously some nuggets of useful info in there, something pointing to something that was very important to us. And we took it too far with Brad's encouragement. Lindsay: Yeah. So ⁓ ⁓ my prep, I realized that there was actually one more chapter of part three that we didn't do ⁓ our last conversation. And I was really tempted to just pretend it wasn't there. ⁓ Mak: Is there anything interesting in it? Lindsay: there is some stuff worth mentioning. So it's chapter nine, it's called Psychotherapy, The Journey from Moralism to Telling the Truth. He mentions that wellness is a natural state of being for people who have learned to get out of their own way. And he talks about people's health being a result of many factors, including genetics, the environment they live in, ⁓ the people they're around, the choices they make, the culture that they're in, and how shitty the healthcare system is in the United States. that are treating illnesses rather than being preventative at all. He says a lot in this section that I just pretty easily agree with. He talks about people needing more rest, about people needing more physical activity, about people even back when he wrote this in the late 90s or sorry, yeah, about overstimulation being a huge thing, new technology, yada yada. So obviously that's like a million times more the case at this point. Mak: Mm-hmm. early 90s. Rehearsed. Rehearsed. Lindsay: So he's talking about stress disorders and then people using alcohol and drugs and numbing ourselves because it's just really hard to live with and cope with all of this overstimulation, stress. Most of us aren't taking good enough care of ourselves. He thinks of a big part of his job as a psychotherapist was to support people in becoming healthier, basically, physically, mentally, emotionally. ⁓ He says, diet, exercise, and psychological healing programs can support people in learning to create wellness as a natural ongoing state of being. This approach is radically different from the typical moralism of the usual try harder to do good approach. In fact, such moralism is a primary source of injury and ill health among health freaks. Show me a moralist and I'll show you someone who doesn't know how to take care of him or herself. Only if people can learn to undo their dumb ways of trying to take care of themselves by shitting all over themselves, can they heal more naturally by letting up. If you're tired and sick, take a break. Take it easy. Don't worry. Be happy. Mak: He can't help himself but to insult the reader. Lindsay: Those of us in the helping professions know that regardless of our best efforts to provide a place and a way of being that gives people the best chance to interrupt themselves on the road to slow suicide, many won't even slow their pace. Nevertheless, when intervention does work, this is how it is done. Regardless of what or how the person is thinking, we interrupt the person's mind, then begin a conversation about personal power based on noticing rather than thinking. Most of the walking wounded can't tell down from up anymore because self-crippling people will continue to cripple themselves with any self-improvement program. We have to interrupt their mechanical replication of their own suffering before we can do anything other than waste time trying to teach them anything new. After that interruption, we can teach people the nuts and bolts of taking care of themselves. For this reason, telling the truth is central to all activities and programs of self-improvement. Yeah, he basically is just saying that people need to take better care of themselves. Most people aren't going to do that. Most people aren't even going to realize that they aren't and that part of the job of a psychotherapist is to help people to slow down, get more in the body, notice the ways they're feeling and aren't taking care of themselves and the importance of being able to interrupt our own minds and being able to tell the truth. These are the most important things. Mak: Yeah. He's saying a lot of the same things that a lot of people in this sphere would say, but the tone and the subtext is a bit different. It doesn't seem to come from a place of care at all. It's a... From a very superior place. It sounds like he imagines his patients or the readers to be like really broken and fucked up and dumb and they're just completely lost. There's no generosity or grace or... Lindsay: ⁓ Yeah, it's funny you would use those words and I agree and a lot of what comes up next in the rest of the section is different than that and starts to come across more like he's coming from a place of care while still also throwing in insults. But also saying how he's in the same boat. A good portion of this chapter is Brad talking about what he thinks could Mak: You know what mean? Okay. Lindsay: therapy is and what the results would be of good therapy, which have to do with an overall observable, measurable change in the person's physical experience in the world, a decrease in whatever the misery was that they came in with in the first place, and no new misery to take its place. When therapy works well, people get to a place of just wanting to continue to take good care of themselves and not Mak: Mm-hmm. Lindsay: being in a place of still wanting to force others, generally through manipulation, to take care of them instead. But they're in a place of like genuinely just being motivated to take good care of themselves. And he says, they become interested in living in the world by constantly renewing their leases on life rather than being lost in their minds. Yeah, and to add to that, learning to take care of ourselves creatively rather than resentfully is a big step in growing up. Mak:

Uh-huh. Lindsay: Most of us won't do it, and a lot of us just continue to want others to take care of us and feel pissed about having to take care of ourselves because we were never taken care of in the ways we wanted to be by our parents. Mak: That's interesting when he's not saying outrageous things. Okay. Lindsay: I don't know, this was interesting to me, but he talks about some of what is good about how he did therapy was things that he did beyond just talk therapy. So he did something called polarity therapy sometimes, which was a pressure point technique similar to reflexology and acupuncture. He basically just says that he would pull their toes and press on their toes in different ways. Mak: No. which is Lindsay: around the connective tissues to teach their bodies directly how to relax. And he then has like a couple of paragraphs about, have no idea what was actually happening or what actually worked. And I don't really care because it worked for some of them. ⁓ And, ⁓ and then ⁓ he would sometimes hypnotize clients and teach them self-hypnosis and encourage them to have a regular practice of self-hypnosis at home, which was a part of helping them to basically just surrender. Mak: Ugh, God... God. Well, I think what he calls self-hypnosis is just really auto-relaxation. Lindsay: Yeah, but what he was doing in the sessions was actually hypnotizing them and doing the polarity therapy work and then hypnotizing them when they're already in a trance state. And then also just put some emphasis on wanting people to just pay more attention to what their body wants and giving it to them. Meaning you're thirsty, get up and get a drink, get up and go to the bathroom when you have to go rather than finishing your work for another 30 minutes and then doing it. What's known as organismic self-regulation, just like taking care of your body when it needs to be taken care of in the ways that it needs. Wilhelm Reich. And so he says through all of these ways, including talk therapy, he was able to help people cure themselves of all different kinds of things like asthma, back pain, rashes, sleep problems, weight issues, addictions of different kinds. And then he says, I have also failed to help a few. I don't know, all of this, I suppose, just Mak: Yeah, that comes from... Lindsay: surprises me because we met him when he was in his 70s and he did not appear to take good care of himself. He would still talk about the importance of movement and exercise and he would still golf some, but definitely didn't strike me as somebody who prioritized good care of his body. Mak: And that's also so common too. Like it was the same with the Nazis, you know, just to use an extreme example. Right? But the vision of the perfect blonde haired, blue eyed Nazi boy was nothing like who the top Nazis were. Some of them were very unhealthy, out of shape. Lindsay: ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. He talks about the hardest part of the work that he would do with his clients being the characterological

part, which is the therapy to change the way the person runs him or herself. One particularly effective way is just to tell the truth about all of the ways that you are trying to get others to do the things that you want them to do to take care of you when you don't want to take care of yourself. He believes that therapy consists primarily of teaching people how to re-contact the experience that exists below their moralism or below ideas about how life is and how it should be. And like you said, he admits that like a lot of what he's talking about here is familiar to a lot of people. This is the way that a lot of psychotherapists think and a lot of these things are common in what's like prescribed to people to be in a better state of health. He says, people are learning to give up looking for an authority to take care of their hurt and make it all better and instead are looking for a fellow human with modern technology at hand and a vision of a better way to live. These are my kind of people. People like this are creators who use me creatively and when they are like this, they don't need me anymore. They use me to their best advantage. What I think we learn together over and over is something about giving up. We give up wishing, we abandon all hope. Life becomes a game for the sake of the game alone. The act of wishing is itself transformed. That is interesting to me, this people are learning to give up looking for an authority to take care of their hurt and make it all better. And what comes after that is again, him positioning himself with his clients as on the same level. We're all on this like project together, we're in community together. And you know, you're not looking for an authority, you're looking to me as a person who can creatively help you make a new life for yourself. Mak: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's an interesting observation. He does sometimes write things such as, what I and my patients and other radical honesty people have discovered is this and that. Which sounds on the surface like giving credit to others. Like he's not just coming up with this shit on his own. But I don't think that that's the whole story really. Because he's still kind of claiming all the people in my sphere which I am the head of. We have all come to this decision. Lindsay: Yes. Totally. Mak: via my leadership. It's like having your cake and eat it too, right? I created this thing, but I'm saying like we all did it together, which is an attempt to kind of put me down on everybody else's level while still remaining at the top. Lindsay: Yes, all of that is what I'm pointing to. And he ends this chapter by saying, when a person learns to use his or her own mind for creating, rather than being used by that mind, the job of psychotherapy is over. Which I think makes sense. And then back to what we're just saying a moment ago, he wanted people to think the way that he thought about all of this. So lose your mind and come to your senses with my influence in the way that I'm hoping you'll come around to doing it. Like I want everyone around me to be operating in this way. Mak: Mm-hmm. Right? Lindsay: And in my mind, like for good reason in some ways, he wanted people to be not just doing what we've all grown up thinking we're supposed to do so that we can create this new world that's more peaceful and more lovely and you know, all of these things. And in his teaching of all of this, things went off the rails and lots of heart, you know, it's like, go ahead and say what you're going to say. Mak: Well, once again, it's a have your cake and eat it too kind of situation. I want you to be creative, open-minded, go against the grain kind of person, but also think the way that I do. Lindsay: But it's one of those things that I'm sure is the case with so many authors of books like this or other gurus. It's like, I'm not telling you to think like me. I'm telling you to open your mind so that in the same way that I've opened my mind, you can align yourself with what's right, you know, with although he wouldn't say it that way because everything he's talking about is like, there's no such thing as rightness, yada, yada. But, it reminds me of my ex. And we can obviously cut this part out, but like, Mak: Right. Which is what I think. Right. No, you're- you're so right. ⁓ huh, yeah. No, go ahead. It's so typical. It's so typical. Go ahead. Lindsay: He would say shit like that all of the time. I'm just aligning myself with rightness. If somebody really believes wholeheartedly, everything I'm saying here is what's true, I've just come to find this truth that exists, it's not my way. It's just, this is what you come to if you drop all of your own bullshit. But what you come to is Brad's bullshit. Mak: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Right, right, Lindsay: even though there's good stuff in here and a lot of stuff that comes from other ways of thinking throughout history, which he's brought other people's teachings together into a lot of what he teaches. So there's a lot of brilliant, lovely stuff in there. But yeah, it is really this like, drop all your bullshit, escape the jail of your mind, come more into what my mind has created, you know? Mak: Yeah, but right, but it would never be claimed that way. Lindsay: Right, because I don't think he sees it that way. Mak: It's like, no, I didn't come to this by using my mind. I came to this realization of the truth by dropping my mind altogether. And how we know if you have dropped your mind completely is if you arrive at the same place that I have. What a fucking trap. Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting too how much when I'm doing this, so much of my struggle about how to wrap up the end of this book because I want to just do it quickly has been his voice in my head. Like I've had Brad coming up in my mind as I'm doing this saying, you guys didn't get it. You didn't even talk about this part or that part. You don't know what you're talking about. That's all bullshit. Just

imagining him saying, if I'm not going through this page for page and picking out all the important parts. Brad would say, you are only saying what you're saying because you don't get it. You're a bunch of idiots. Mak: Right. That's the brainwashing. Lindsay: So that's been in there with me thinking like, we need to include this chapter and we need to include that chapter and we need to make sure we say something from this or that. So that's been interesting to me too, that that's like part of my motivation of including different things. And were you going to say something else? Okay. With that said, let's dig into part four. Mak: Now go ahead. Is this gonna be about completion conversations and forgiveness? No. What is it about? Lindsay: No. All of that happens more in Practicing Radical Honesty, the book, so we probably need to go through that whole book as well. So part four is called Things I've Learned from the War Between Being and Mind. And first sentence of this chapter is, this chapter describes where power comes from. And I'm going to try to sum that up. He first shares pages. Mak: Okay. We definitely should. Lindsay: of John Steinbeck's The Grapes of Wrath. Mak: Mm-hmm. It's about the one-eyed mechanic, where the main character basically just berates the one-eyed mechanic for being such a victim. Mm-hmm. That's the whole point of the story, right? That's a great therapeutic intervention. Because this random asshole just says, look, man, you're being such a fucking victim, why don't you clean your act up and like do something with your life? It's the Dr. Phil psychotherapeutic intervention. Lindsay: Yeah. Yes. Yes, that seems accurate. So he shares this whole part of the book from the Grapes of Wrath and talks about the struggle that so many of us have of like these opposing forces within us. We think we want this thing, but everything we're doing would prove otherwise. We want this, but all of our behaviors, all of our actions are keeping us from getting that thing that we claim that we want. And he says that the source of power to produce the results we want does not lie in our beliefs, our hopes, or our time-consuming struggle to change. By focusing on the struggle instead of on the results, we avoid having to admit that the one who wants to change and the one who resists change are one in the same, that we are whole, and that we really do get what we want, which is struggle rather than results. And so then this is where you said earlier that a lot of what he says in the book sounds like he's just saying how broken everyone is and how incapable we are of living lives that make us happy and all of that. So here he says, suppose we consider ourselves to be already what we long to be, functional integrated holes who produce the result we choose effortlessly with our entire beings. All the apparent contradictions and dichotomies are actually smoke screens. false struggles enacted by our own minds to hide from others, ourselves, or our true intent. Our true intent is to do just what we do. The contradictions between our principles and our behavior are only superficial, only invented for the sake of appearance and to avoid acknowledging our terrifying power to make things happen." He's talking about we have all of this power, but he's also doing it still in an inflicting way. Mak: Yeah, that's such a negative view of internal conflict, you know, and that's the Est approach once again. ⁓ yeah, you say you want this, but you're actually full of shit. Why don't you just admit what you really want, which is what you got. Otherwise, if you wanted something else, you would just go out and get it, you know. Lindsay: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and when I was reading this, when I read this the first time, I had no knowledge of anything like internal family systems or anything like that. He talks about these conflicting parts that we have and if we could just think of ourselves as a whole and not like these opposing things. And I'm thinking, cool, yeah, or, you know, work with a therapist and do some parts work around these parts that need some time and some attention and support with like, it's scary to do these things. So anyway, that came up for me a lot. Mak: From that perspective, he's just coming in as an external, judgmental part and further berating a system that is already berating itself. Lindsay: Yes. Totally. ⁓ Without using the words the paradox of change, he kind of talks about the paradox of change here. In a sense, I can change finally only by giving up trying to change. Mak: What is the paradoxical theory of change? Lindsay: ⁓ just what I just said, basically. Do you want to say it in some fancy way? The more we try to change, the more we stay the same. And also says that like in order for things to get better, they're first going to get worse. Only after experiencing ourselves the way we are, dropping our phony struggle to change and telling the truth about all of it, can we create the lives we have been saying we want. This examination of our subconscious desire to avoid change and of what lies beneath the phony struggle. Mak: No. No. Lindsay: Can we get unstuck? So this is the stuff that I was reading and thinking, ⁓ this is what I need to be reading right now. Cause I'm thinking so much about my financial situation and how I've always dealt with this kind of thing. And it's like, ⁓ what am I doing? And I think so much that I want this to change and I'm how am I making myself stuck? So yeah, there are parts that I'm like, okay, even though I'm to be critical of most of this, I still want to come back and read this and think about how it applies to my current situation. Mak: ⁓ huh, ⁓ huh. Has Brad's approach ever worked with you in your issues with money? Lindsay: Does it seem like it has? Yeah. Whatever. Mak: No. I should try punishing myself in this way. Lindsay: Yeah, uh-huh. It's also making me think about the book Existential Kink, which I think you read. Mak: I don't think I

ever read the whole thing, but I'm familiar enough with it. Lindsay: Okay, it's got some stuff in there that's basically helping you get in touch with how much we actually want some of the things that we claim to hate and like how there are different ways that we're actually getting off on these like the payoffs of the bad choices that we're making and Mak: Which again, that's why the parts perspective is so useful because there's such a tendency to be like, well, I'm a singular person. So it has to be either this or that. I either want this or I want that because they're mutually exclusive. But if you think of yourself from the parts perspective, then all of that internal conflict and the seeming paradoxes become possible and obvious. Like, ⁓ of course. Lindsay: Uh-huh. Mak: Because there are different mechanisms at play, there are different competing desires, and that's where the stuckness comes from. Lindsay: Absolutely. Struggling to change is what you do to hide from something worse. Struggling to change is a way to avoid facing the abyss. The abysmal truth is that everything comes to nothing. No change matters. Whatever you don't have is only important to you because you don't have it. The whole coming to death to be able to be reborn. ⁓ All change is futile. Mak: You Yeah, pessimistic view. Which is a good perspective to try on. But it's not the truth. Lindsay: Willingness to face the abyss of meaninglessness is the power required to accomplish change. Mak: I like some of his plays on words. I think the abysmal truth was a good one. You disagree? Okay. Lindsay: ⁓ Great. No, that's fine. I was more just thinking like, cool, you're saying some positive things about the book. Yeah. Being whole means including everything. So I guess this is what I was referring to too. He's talking about embracing all of what we have that's in us, all of the things that we think, all of the things that we feel, the current electrical current we are, this moment, all our imaginings, and facing death. Mak: For a change. Lindsay: We have talked in past recordings about the importance that Brad has placed on personal responsibility. I think at least there's some good in there, but we also can identify that a lot of the problems that happened in the community, a lot of the ways that burnout happened for people had to do with this idea of total responsibility for our own experiences. Mak: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, I think you just touched on one of the central drivers of the meltdown within the community. Those that believed deeply in 100 % personal responsibility versus those who wanted accountability for wrongdoing. In other words, the believers in personal responsibility wanted to take no accountability. the quote unquote victims were responsible for themselves. ⁓ you didn't like what I did, that's your problem to get over. Because I just do what I do, you know, and you just do what you do. If I don't like what you do, it's my responsibility to get over it. If you don't like what I do, it's your responsibility to get over it. And there's, again, like you keep saying, there's some good stuff to mine out of that. Lindsay: Hm-hm. Mak: But when that strategy is used as a defense by people in power against taking accountability for missteps, wrongdoing, and power abuse, that can become really hurtful and potentially disastrous. Lindsay: Totally, yes. So I'll say a little bit of what he says in here. Responsibility means that whatever you are doing, you are willing to experience yourself as the cause. You are the source of your troubles as well as of your successes. As long as you are blaming, explaining, apologizing, trying, resolving to be good, hoping, or feeling guilty, you are not being responsible. Mak: I remember that I loved that idea, and it was something I had already been primed for in my time with Zen Buddhism. In other kind of non-dualistic traditions, you'll see sometimes this insistence on the idea that you are the source of everything, you are the creator of the entire universe from your perspective, everything that you have, you created. And I... Lindsay: Mm-hmm. Yeah, there can be a lot of empowerment in taking that on in some way, trying on that perspective in different areas of your life. How might I be the cause of this particular situation, of this problem in this relationship, of the job situation that I have, of my financial situation, whatever it might be. If we have been most of our lives coming solely from a place of everything is everybody else's fault, then of course there can be some real growth in trying on, like how am I responsible for the ways my life looks. Mak: Mm-hmm. But as in most things, ⁓ there's no real wisdom in either extreme position. In this regard, I love the serenity prayer from 12-step. It's all about knowing the distinction between the things that are within my control and the things that aren't. And that real wisdom is learning to distinguish between those two and taking responsibility where you can and leaving the rest to God or your higher power or whatever. The things outside of you, outside of your control. Lindsay: wish I could remember how hardcore he is about this, because I know in a lot of ways we would think he's pretty hardcore. But I know that there are some people who think even if your spouse is murdered in your home by an intruder or something, that there's a way that you created that, that's what you drew into your life. ⁓ Mak: Right? You chose to live there. Mm-hmm. You chose to have a fancy house that somebody wanted to break into and... Yeah. Or even, I didn't choose to be born. And they'll say, are you sure? Are you sure? Lindsay: or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. So, you have to die to live, your pretend self, that doesn't include your imperfection, has to die. Then you again become a whole being. You then have the power you have always had, only now you can use it consciously. This is the good life. So, yeah, that chapter was about where

power comes from. That's where it comes from. Mak: To summarize. Lindsay: Admitting all of the things that are your pretend self and your pretend ways of being to uphold this idea of perfection, you have to let the you die that is this perfect idea of who you are. And instead, you need to include all of your imperfections, like of the fantasy, be honest about those things. Mak: R-right. The fantasy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, good. I like it. Incorporate all of the disowned parts of self. Lindsay: Which again, IFS is such a great practice for that kind of thing, which is not at all what he's saying here. He's basically just saying, get it, that all of those parts are one and not like give attention to the parts that are having a harder time getting on board with this. So the next chapter is about how the truth changes. Thinking that the self must remain constant for life to have meaning is like falling hopelessly in love with an inch. Alan Watts. Mak: Wait, wait, what? Lindsay: Thinking that the self must remain constant in order for life to have meaning is like falling hopelessly in love with an inch. Mak: Yeah. I love it. Cute. Lindsay: don't know why I have such a hard time like summing up his shit. He talks about... At the beginning of this chapter, he talks about... Mak: Do you want to take a break? You seem so bummed out. Lindsay: I don't know. I just, it's like, there's this way that I'm just like, I don't want to be giving this dude a platform, but it's what we're doing. Mak: It's interesting too, because it seems like I tend to take on the role of knocking him down and then you kind of balance me out a little bit sometimes, be like, okay, but yeah, there's some good stuff in there too. I wonder if it would be nice if we flipped the roles a little bit, if I were to play the defender of Brad, so you could just let rip any of your criticisms. And then I could let go of saying the same shit over and over about how just pissed off I am about the whole thing. Lindsay: Yes, that could be great. And also like I have this idea that my whole attitude as I'm saying any of these things is really shitty. So I think I feel like I'm already coming from a shitting on it all place, but that's probably just because that's what I know I'm thinking, but I don't, maybe it's not coming across. Mak: Right. Well, that's the thing. You seem conflicted about that. And I think maybe just let it rip. I think it would be good. Let me take on the role of defending him while you just let yourself be fucking whiny or whatever. Lindsay: I think it's just all hitting me like a ton of bricks, like I feel so much heaviness. I don't even know how much I want to share of the rest of this. Really, I just want to say, like, pretty much everything he says in the fourth part of the book is justifying shitty behavior. But from a place of, like, free your mind, you know? Like, we're all going to create better things in the world with our minds as tools if we can get out of our... Mak: Yeah. Lindsay: Moralism, mean, the main thing he talks about is like how terrible moralism is that we need to come up with our own ideas. But all I can think when I'm reading all of that is like, that's why you were able to cause the harm that you did to who knows how many therapy clients we don't know. And why stuff was so why he created the community that he created where so much shit happened that wasn't good for people. Mak: Why did he create the community? The way he did? Lindsay: Because he wanted more. I need to just slow down for a second. Mak: Hmph. Lindsay: It's just less of a mystery to me now how the community, if you want to call it that, developed the way that it did over time as I'm rereading this book. Mak: like a map to get where we got. Lindsay: Yeah, and it's really just like, be in the present moment, get out of your mind, just be a being with another being, paying attention to what feels good and what doesn't, which kind of amounts to don't worry about any harm that might be caused, don't worry about any consequences, don't worry about how you might be hurting another person, that's their responsibility, and these are all just ideas anyway and stories that we have about things. Mak: Mm-hmm. Lindsay: Any principles that we attach ourselves to are just bullshit. Create as you go in the moment and then whatever was true in that moment isn't true the next moment anyway. So basically like do whatever you want and there are no consequences and the harm isn't your responsibility. And for a certain sort of person living a certain sort of way, this can like kind of rock your world in a way that ends up being really healthy. ⁓ I've been so rigid in my ways of conforming to this and that. I can free myself up a bit. I can lighten up. I can be more aware of what's happening for me from moment to moment. A lot of growth and goodness and fun and happiness can come from that. But for people who are already in a place of like, I want to be able to get away with more shit. I want to be able to like do what I want sexually with people. I want to be able to like be in a position of power and reign over others with my whatever like this is just giving so much permission and not only permission but like it's the right way to be go do that it's better than all the other ways and it's just so obvious like how could he not when writing this think ⁓ for a lot of people like in the wrong hands a lot of people are going to do a lot of shitty stuff with this encouragement you know like it seems Mak: Yeah. Lindsay: wild to me that he wouldn't consider that or if he was already one of the people who was obviously going to benefit most from this way of being, like he was getting to do more of what he wanted to do in the world and then surrounding himself with more people who were also going to live that way so they could all just be these like free-wheeling, living in the moment, not worrying about what's next. Mak: Hmm. ⁓ this is interesting. You know, I

keep saying that he wanted to have his cake and eat it too. He simultaneously thinks that people are dumb, broken children who are incapable of taking care of themselves, but also pushes this idea. that people need to be 100 % responsible for themselves and that they're an adult. And if we do anything to try to support or help or save them, then we're stepping out of our lane, right? That we're being arrogant. Lindsay: I know. Yeah. Mak: So he wants to think of people as idiots until it's convenient for him to say like, well no, you're an adult. I don't need to take responsibility for you. Lindsay: Yeah. Well, and you're a god in some ways, you know, he's talking about like, are the creator of your whole world. You are the creator of your, all of your experiences. You're so much more powerful than you know. Mak: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. Lindsay, I can share this story about you or make it anonymous if you... I'll just tell it about you. I remember that eight day in Denver that you told about in your story when you were getting all of the attention from the men. We communicated a little bit while you were there. You told me at some point about the conflict that you had because your body was so turned on. Lindsay: Mm-hmm. I don't know which story you're talking about. Uh-huh. Mak: And you wanted to act and the question was, well, shouldn't I just act on it? That's what my body wants in the moment. That's what I notice right now. The signals are clear. I want sex. This is feeling good, you know, but there was another part or an inhibitory mechanism that said like, no way. And so often in these kinds of spiritual workshops, the point of view will be like, why are you so inhibited? You clearly want to do that. Why are you stopping yourself? Lindsay: Uh-huh. Yeah. Mak: Why are you so shut down, closed off, not opening and allowing and receiving? That's more of the spiritual angle, but the same principle applied in the radical honesty workshops. Lindsay: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mak: Is that ring a bell? Lindsay: I Was I talking about something particular? I mean, was I talking about a sexual experience that I had had there at the workshop? Mak: I don't think you acted on it, but you were just sharing with me that you were conflicted about that. And I was right there with you. was like, well, yeah, I guess, you know, because we were brought into this idea of like, what's more important is not the mind, right? Not your thinking about this and like weighing pros and cons. It's very simply, it's just the hedonistic philosophy. Well, do what you want in the moment. Damn the consequences. That's all bullshit. Lindsay: ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, damn how you might feel two minutes after doing the thing or like the next day after sleeping on it. Mak: That doesn't even exist. All that exists is the present moment. And in the present moment, you want to get down. Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. So I'm just going to, because this chapter was about the truth changes, I'm just going to wrap that up. So he says, descriptive words evoke feelings that come and then go away. Thus, even when you speak honestly in any given moment, by describing what you are experiencing, it often becomes no longer true. So when you describe your experience and the truth changes for you, you can be sure you have spoken the truth even though you also know that what you just said is no longer true. It's more fun and less boring than trying to keep track of everything. It's called freedom. Mak: Hmm. Can we pause there? Like a genuine question. So he's claiming that that's freedom, just saying what is true in the present moment. That just kind of struck me as something. Like, is that really freedom? Just naming what is so? Lindsay: Oof. I don't know. I don't know. Mak: That's kind of the whole philosophy, right? It's free yourself from your shoulds and all of your moralistic ideas about what ought to be and just recognize, admit to, and state out loud what is so and that there's true freedom in that. Lindsay: Yeah. And so then really Mak: Yeah, but I think that it deserves pushing back against. Lindsay: Well, I'm going to add to it though, because the second to the last chapter of the book is called Freedom. So he expands on this. So if you want to say more now, do. Mak: Okay. Okay. I'm just reflecting on how many pickup artist types and white men who have lots of shame and troubles with their mom and whatnot. And are really looking for a space where they can come and just like rage against the world for not getting what they wanted out of life. Lindsay: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, so many of those people are drawn to radical honesty. Mak: And it has to do with, fuck this woke PC culture where I can't say what I want and make fun of people and call bitches bitches and call fat people fat and all of that. Lindsay: Mm-hmm. Mak: and they have some idea that that's what freedom is. Lindsay: Uh-huh. Mak: Yep, I'm just telling you, yeah, we just go right back to that thing. That brutal honesty somehow is freedom. I'm tired of biting my tongue. Lindsay: Yeah. Mak: I'm tired of playing nice. I'm looking for a space where I can essentially be an infant throwing a temper tantrum and that people won't drop me and leave me. Lindsay: Yeah, and do you think a lot of the people who come to radical honesty in that state and come to it looking for that stay in that place? Or do you think they stick around enough to learn how that doesn't work? Mak: I think that's a great question. My immediate response is those who learn that lesson, learn it on their own. You say like, yeah, I tried that on and it has its limitations. I'm moving on. Which good for them. Lindsay: Okay. So yeah, basically everything I'm going to want to say about this chapter about freedom is just about how what Brad is putting out there can be really good and helpful for some people and can be really misinterpreted as permission to be terrible for other people. Mak: Yeah, I wanted to

mention earlier that I think it's very difficult to write a book in this genre in a responsible way. And I guess what I mean when I say this genre, it's any kind of prescriptive way of living your life. You need to do this that can't apply to everyone. It can't even apply to most people probably, right? Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. Right, because also for a lot of us, if we're reading a book like this, we maybe can't tell or probably can't tell, is this something I need or would this actually be pushing me too far in the direction that I'm already headed that's unhealthy for me? That takes a lot of self-awareness, which a lot of people have, you know, so some people might pick up a book and be like, ⁓ this is not what I need. Mak: Yeah. Not, but Brad's imagined reader is not that self-aware. They're idiots. And it's interesting because in the workshops when he was leading, he would often say like, well, I'm saying this to you because you need to hear this. And I'm gonna tell the person next to you the opposite because that's what they needed to hear. So he did, you know, he had that kind of subtlety sometimes in live situations. Yeah. Lindsay: Yeah. When working, yeah, when working in person with people, it's really different when writing a book that you're putting out to the world. You don't know who you're dealing with. You don't know who you're talking to. Mak: Yeah, so it's almost like he did have a very specific person in mind that he's speaking to who is kind of Lindsay: like an amalgamation of all of the people he's worked with over the years. And that's what he... Mak: Yeah. That's who he's speaking to. That's who he imagines as he's writing. Lindsay: Well, so he starts this chapter about freedom saying, I'm in love with the independent being that's in the background, witnessing the mind's moralism and thoughts and principles and ideas and experiences. He talks about the freedom and the power there is in being able to know ourselves as the witness, the witness of everything. And he says this new, wider sense of who we are leaves us being more creative and more willing to fly by the seat of our pants. My cat just messed up my name. I know I want you to be able to cuddle, but you can't right now. I gotta be able to read this. Good crease. Okay. Mak: You I'm Kitty. Lindsay: ⁓ He needs the shoulder. All right, so the last thing I said was, he goes on to say that the expanded to the width of the witness being is capable of saying, I'm here on this planet for experiencing and I want to be a creator, not a victim. I am more interested in discovery than carefulness. I am more interested in learning than in protection. Yeah, so many of the things I'm picking out to share are because of how I think these are the ways he justifies creating what he created. Mak: which is. Lindsay: A community that drew a bunch of like, pick-up artist men and men like those you described a few minutes ago. And women, I mean us too, who wanted allowance to just do what they wanted to do in the world. You know, whatever those things were. Mak: Right. Personal responsibility actually means freedom from accountability. Lindsay: Yeah, I'm gonna just send you this next section to read. Mak: Wilhelm Reich got arrested by the FBI, lost his position at the new school in May 1941 after writing to its director to say he had saved several lives in secret experiments with the accumulator. I think I remember reading this before. He made up some bullshit treatment or something and I don't know, either people died or there was some big scandal. But like a lot... A lot of the people that Brad got his stuff from ended up being just kind of crazy or abusive or total whack jobs. Lindsay: Mm-hmm. That's because most men in history... Mak: That's true of many of the big names in psychotherapy over the years. Lindsay: Absolutely, because those are the people who were in the public eye because they powered their way through shit to be the ones. Yeah, I mean that is what our history that most people are aware of is made up of. ⁓ Okay, I just sent you two clips. Mak: Because they had some big idea. My friends, a whole bunch of us now know that it is more fun to be alive than to be right. We have lost our minds and come to our senses enough times to know what the goal is. When we're at our best, we are radicals, meaning we get at the root of things. We create, we tell the truth, we get off on destroying pretense. We have a technology of creation based on giving up lies and starting over again, over and over again. We are an antidote to the poison of conventional education we have received. We wish to make us all more like animals. Indeed. We are still angry, but we are less angry than the calm looking phonies who have control of the bomb. I love this like activist angle. We are less blinded by anger than your average pathetic rationalizing miserable bastard engaging in the normal politics of experience. We are the new teachers. We are out to save the world. Lindsay: Mm-hmm. Mak: We are against politeness as a substitute for the truth because that politeness kills. Politeness and diplomacy are responsible for more suffering and death than all the crimes of passion in history. Fuck politeness. Fuck diplomacy. Tell the truth. I have one of the best jobs in the world. The opportunity given to me to contribute to other people by listening to their struggle between being and mind is a great gift. because it gives me the opportunity to practice my own ongoing liberation. When I'm operating out of that, thank you for letting me in on your life, I'm a great therapist. When I'm paying attention with honor and with interest, I never have to think of what to say. Whatever comes out of me doesn't seem to come from me, it comes from us. When speaking comes out of listening rather than the reverse, I am liberated from my mind just as much as they are from theirs. Lindsay: The first thing that comes to mind for me, what he says at the end there is great if

he's talking about sitting and having a conversation with a friend. If he's talking about communicating with peers in this way, that that's mutually beneficial for them. They're contributing to each other, whatever. When you're talking about getting that from your clients by being their therapist, Mak: Hmm. Yeah. Lindsay: I'm just thinking so much about the dual relationship stuff and how it sounds like that was so much of the problem. He also talks in this book, I mean, he shares another example of somebody who was maybe kind of his elder, another psychiatrist who he worked with in different ways, who he was learning from, and then they were just friends and equals. And then it got to the point that the other guy was having so much trouble in his life that then Brad became his therapist, but he didn't really grow out of the troubles he was having and whatever. To me, that just sounds like a whole messy, you know, just be friends and like support each other as friends. Like, why did it turn into a like Brad's his therapist now kind of thing. And I just, yeah, and just like his way of thinking about all of this stuff and everything he's setting up here is like, fuck all of that shit. Just contribute to each other, you know, just be human beings together. Which again, if you are just trying to be peers and do that in community and that's what you're agreeing to with each other. Mak: And that's a no-no in the therapy world. Lindsay: great. But if somebody is paying you and you are their therapist, and you are there sorting through your own shit and seeing it as an opportunity for you to be... And sure, like we learn stuff when we're coaching people, you take stuff away from that, but you're not talking about it with them. Like, ⁓ here's what I'm getting out of this. Here's what I'm learning. Here's how I'm getting myself more free by doing this with you. Mak: Meh. Well, and I'm sure that he learned through his psychotherapy training that the psychotherapist is a service role and he didn't like that. So eventually he gets to writing a segment called My Friends and lists what goes on with his patients as friends in this adventure in life together. I want to mention a parallel too. I did a training in IFS and I was a bit dismayed that the teacher of the course was encouraging people Lindsay: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mak: to do IFS, is a kind of trauma therapy with their friends and family. And I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait up. That's a no-no. Like half of the people on this training program are therapists and should know better. Why are none of you speaking up? And the teacher at first said something like, well, no, it's fine. As long as you're in self, you know, which to give a little background in IFS. Lindsay: Hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mak: Self is like the thing at the center, the witness, the thing that's compassionate and caring and creative and all that, which is separate from all your parts that are kind of doing their thing. And she cleaned it up later on and was like, yeah, yeah, it's probably not a good idea. But it reminded me that there was a big parallel with the everything is going to be fine as long as you just tell the truth. As long as you're just honest, it doesn't matter if you're playing therapist. with your best friend, your partner, your mom. Because as long as I'm in self, as long as I'm fully honest, what could go wrong? It's a complete dismissal of power dynamics and dual relationships. Lindsay: No. No. So the next little section of the book is called missionary work, which are basically just him talking about helping other people to do this same stuff that he's saying he wants for himself and that he wants for his patients. So basically, in order for this therapy to work, in order for you to keep coming alive again, spread the good word, basically. Mak: Brad was also enamored with this idea of the end of individual psychotherapy and the emergence of therapeutic community. In other words, ⁓ democratizing therapy. Lindsay: But then he would need to be in a community with other psychotherapists. Like, I don't know, like you can't be the leader of this thing introducing this particular way of being to a community of people and then be on the same level as them. Especially if you're the only one in that community who's a trained psychotherapist who's been doing it for decades and nobody else has any learning in that, like, obviously. ⁓ But yeah, so that's what this little section is about is... Okay, Lino, I'm going to put you down now. Mak: You Lindsay: The future of your therapy and of therapy itself is in community. A community organized around people helping themselves and other people be liberated from their minds is your best bet. These groups provide a service not only to each other, but to the people who could well use their services but don't know it yet." Yeah, it's like he's kind of just trying to fit in a bunch of stuff in the end here, because then he immediately switches to this section about yuppie salvation, relief from the anxiety of too many choices. ⁓ and just basically talks about the stress that comes from this ever-growing world with too much stimulation, too many possibilities, the stress that that causes, this idea that we're not doing enough, we'll never have time, and know all of those things and choose to act anyway. Mak: The anxiety of too much choice. Lindsay: He then goes on to talk about how things are. None of us ever really knows what's happening anywhere with anything at any time. I have my view about things, you have your view about things. We all just have these different ideas and stories about things. And if we can't agree and we need to, then we just look to somebody else to help us agree like a judge or, you know, a trusted friend. And then that's just going to be another one idea or story about things. We're getting very close to the end. ⁓ God. Mak: speak about your frustration a little bit. Lindsay: I think part of my frustration is Brad

thinks every idea he has is so important and he needs to fit in all of this stuff. There's a good amount of repetition. It's like, okay, I'm getting to the end of the book. I know I should wrap this up soon. I'm already at 230 pages, but I want to say a little something about who we think we are, about beliefs we have about how we should behave. where look for people who are interested in the truth. All of these little short things. And then the final lowdown, the last chapter that sums it all up. And then it's got this long poem in it. And then he has a section about lying again, as if the whole book hasn't already been about lying. And then what he says are his last words. So he writes a few chapters, but then there's a whole other long poem, like pages, four pages of poem, five pages of poem. And then... Mak: You What? Jesus. Lindsay: Conclusion and Postscript to the New Edition written in 2004. So then there's like pages of that that I didn't even like look at for this because I was just like, he just, you know, he's a thinker. He has a brain that comes up with interesting ideas and he wants everybody to hear them, you know? So I think part of my frustration is just like... Mak: What? Lindsay: ⁓ my god, when is this done and didn't we already say all of these things? Mak: couldn't have this just been an essay or an op-ed in the New York Times, but somehow got expanded to a book. Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because really all he's saying at the end here is don't buy into any of your own bullshit. You don't know who you are, you don't know how the world is. Let go of all of that over and over again by being honest about the ideas that you have about all of these things. So that's the second to last chapter about freedom. Basically just keep admitting your bullshit so that you can let go of your bullshit so that you can be a more creative person in the world. In its essence, I think that's a good message. We can take ourselves less seriously. If we can take a step back, be the witness more often, notice the things that we're doing that we constantly do that are ourselves getting in our own way. That's fucking great. Like great messages. Probably just say all of that shit without having all of the insults in there and all of the stuff about using his clients and participants to have the life that he wants to have with community and friends who are really mostly his clients, it sounds like. Any final thoughts about this freedom thing? Mak: Well, I do wonder if it would have become a best-selling book if he had written it in a more measured and thoughtful and responsible way. Probably not. Most of the best-selling self-help books are kind of bullshit and they're extreme in their position. And they have some kind of simple idea like, stop lying and just tell the truth all the time. You know, it's a very simple concept. Lindsay: Yeah, with some sort of provocative name to draw people in. So, yeah. Mak: No. It's seductive, right? Like, all I know is I'm not quite satisfied with my life. There's some problem. This book or this guy, whatever, is telling me that there's a simple solution. All I have to do is this, and they give me like a one, two, three step process, and that's it. It's so seductive. Lindsay: And the thing that I have to do is just like be in my body and go with the excitement that I have and not ignore or deny or lie about the excitement that I have in my body and then like make choices in the moment from that place and not worry about what's going to happen in the future after that. Fucking sweet. Great. That's what I want to do. Mak: Yeah, yeah, and and if people don't like that then there's something wrong with them not me Lindsay: Yeah, what permission. Okay, so last chapter of the book, the final lowdown. Mak: full path of growth from birth to maturity consists of number one, the birth of being. Number two, the growth of the mind. Number three, a period of domination of the being by the mind. Number four, liberation of the being from the mind. And finally, number five, a mind used by the being. So this brings us full circle to the beginning, the very first conversation that we had, which was lose your mind, come to your senses, get your mind back. become the creator of your life. Having told the truth enough, the being becomes liberated from its own mind. Having told the truth enough, the being takes charge of its mind rather than remaining suppressed by its mind or being ignored because of preoccupation with its mind. The period of liberation of the being from domination by its mind involves many experiences of disorientation and then reorientation. Reorientation of the being to sources other than the mind is based on being in touch with one's own body and noticing things in the world. During these times, the opportunity for freedom occurs. Freedom from the previously developed network of thought. Thinking becomes merely something else to notice and use when one has become reoriented to experience. Thinking loses its prior status as the primary ruler and jail keeper of being and becomes more like the chauffeur. Being trapped in the jail of the mind is a disease called moralism. Lindsay: This is what this book has been about. Moralism is the devil, basically. Mak: Mm-hmm. ⁓ and you didn't highlight this, but he goes on to say, relief from moralism is temporary because there is no permanent. And then I imagine he says something like, yeah, because the mind is a moral generating machine. That's its job to create judgments. And that's actually something that is necessary for us to survive, to make quick snap judgments. Lindsay: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Mak: to form beliefs about things, make sense of the world in some way, even if the stories that it comes up with or the assessments that it makes are incorrect, they are useful in some way for survival, which is why the whole thing developed in the first place. Lindsay: Yeah. which he actually talks about in the end of the book

here. Mak: So yeah, the notion of using your mind as a tool rather than being driven by it unconsciously, I think is a great notion. But he has a particular way of really shaming and berating people for having too much faith in or love of their capacity to think. Lindsay: Yeah, don't let your conscience be your guide. Follow any goddamn thing else but your conscience. Mak: Hahaha So he's condemning conscience and praising consciousness. Lindsay: Yeah, he's also just talking about like, nobody knows how we should behave. There's no right way to behave. We don't know what it is if there is. Be willing to do and say and try things and see what happens. Most of us are Mak: Well, the right way to behave is to tell the truth all the time. Lindsay: Yeah, and to not be so scared and to not be so uptight and just like do the things and talk about them. Mak: Mm-hmm. I have to say, I've said a lot of times recently to people that in a certain way, Trump really isn't the problem. He's just a fucking insane guy. Whatever. There are plenty of insane people, but it's his followers, the people who put him into a place of power that are the real problem. Whether that's true or not, it's just a thing that I have been saying. And it's very uncomfortable for me to turn that logic onto Brad. Lindsay: Mm-hmm, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mak: and putting the responsibility of those who listened to him and supported him and propagated his shit, that those, we, are the people who then maybe carry the weight of the responsibility, collectively. Lindsay: Yeah, I don't know about that. I think definitely there's responsibility on both sides, especially when I think of Trump. think like he's also in a position of extreme power. so obviously he's got a lot of responsibility there, along with the people who have put him in power and kept him in power and lied for him. And you know, some of the same stuff could be also said for Brad. Like so many people around Brad just... Mak: Yes. Enabled and empowered. Lindsay: Yeah, and just like praising him for how much of a positive impact they've had on his life and how I wouldn't be who I am or where I am if it wasn't for reading your book or going to your workshops. And I think because Brad is so casual and like does in a lot of ways position himself as of the people, his response to that kind of thing is just like, well, thanks, you know, like. Mak: It was important to him, think. Admiration was the thing that he was going for. That's his love language, if you will. Lindsay: Hmm. Mak: And I think that like any narcissist, the relatively minor percentage of people that would praise him in that way is what really sustained him. And that the, I would argue, larger percentage of people that would criticize and not stick around and claim harm, he would dismiss all of those. Well, you just don't get it. You're doing it wrong. You're not ready, whatever. You're one of those victim people who are not courageous enough to live life in the way that I'm describing. Lindsay: I'm just thinking so much right now about how fucked it is to offer therapy and to offer workshops with the motivation of wanting to fill the world with more people like yourself, wanting more people around you to behave in the ways that you think people should be behaving. And how many people can probably end up doing that even accidentally thinking like, I'm being of service. I'm just supporting these people and having the lives that they want to have. Mak: Well, no, mean, his mission was to save the world. Especially the book he's been working on for the past 10 years that will never be released. That's what it's all about, saving the world. And he's lamenting how that won't happen, that we're gonna crash the plane into the mountain or run the train off the cliff because we won't listen to him. He has the answer, but goddamn it, we just won't listen because we're too chicken shit. Lindsay: Yeah. So yeah, maybe the only last important part here is what a great thing the mind is. If we can use it and it's not using us, we can create amazing things in the world and creating bigger problems for fun. So we can use our mind to come up with problems that we can solve as a project, as something that's stimulating, inspiring to us and to others. And what a great thing. Mak: Hmm. Reminds me of Mark Manson's book. I can't remember which one. Basically, life is problems. So you might as well accept that and learn to start creating problems that you enjoy solving rather than being the victim of problems that are kind of imposed upon you. Lindsay: Exactly. Same, same. Before he gets to the conclusion in the postscript, he ends this book with a little poem of his own. I, Brad Blanton, in the midst of my life, having had three parents, three siblings, four wives, four causes, four children, and four decades of pain, having raged for those who did not love me and those who loved me but not enough and those whom I did not love, declare myself now for joy. Joyfulness rises right up out of despair. Singing the blues can make you happy. Help yourself. It's free. Pass it on. That's the end of the book. There's a conclusion and postscript that is more than 20 pages long. ⁓ that's basically just talking about like the world is still in a shitty state. And then he has this sort of playful, but kind of serious stuff about Mak: Wow. You the whole additional chapter. Lindsay: how he's created this religion of futilitarianism, humanities only hope, and says, the beliefs are, belief number one, my life is futile. Belief number two, pygmies are stealing my luggage. ⁓ Why then do I say futilitarianism? He's just kind of having fun with words. Losing our faith in everything except losing our faith. Like he just really wanted to write another book by the time he was, and he just has a bunch of things that he thinks. Mak: God. Yeah. Lindsay: are really important to share. ⁓ Mak: You remember that song that he wrote called The Road to Endarkenment? Lindsay:

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, he's like a clever dude with creative, interesting ideas and... Mak: Mm-hmm. It was a good song. I got a question for you. In one of our earlier conversations, I told you about the Jefferson Bible and how he basically condensed the entire Bible into, let's say, a hundred pages, just of the stuff that he thought was most valuable, removing anything religious or spiritual in order to get to the essential moral system of the Bible. you were to create your own Jefferson Bible version ⁓ Brad's book, Radical Honesty, how long do you think that book might be? Lindsay: Really, it could be like 10 pages or something. I mean, think most books like this could. So many people who write books like this just have all these ideas that they want the world to hear because they think they're really important. I mean, I'm sure he could boil down or I could boil down what I think are the important parts that leave out all of the insults and do it and do it this way now parts, you know? What about you? Like, I think you could probably put into, like, three sentences the crux of the practice. Mak: ⁓ I'm also trying to think if I would even do like a Jefferson Bible version, which is essentially he doesn't condense or reword anything. He simply strips away the things that he does. Yeah. I don't know if I would be satisfied with the same approach to the book. I think that it would have to be rewritten using a different tone and lots of caveats and some balance. And if you're the kind of person Lindsay: Cuts out, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mak: who, if you find yourself in this kind of situation, this kind of advice might be useful to you. There would be much caveating that it would be essentially a different book. And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there are certain passages in there that I like kind of wholesale and would just leave those there as is. But as a whole, I'm like, Lindsay: Yeah, I wonder. Mak: I want to toss the whole thing in the garbage. Do you remember how you responded when I initially asked you the question? Lindsay: that I would probably still recommend the book sometimes to some people. And that if I did or when I do, I would tell people there's some really good bits in here, some good wisdom in here, but also like take it with a grain of salt. Don't take him too seriously. Keep in mind that this is just another person in the world writing this book from a perspective that comes from his experience in life, his Mak: Yeah. Lindsay: unhealed shit his way that he wants the world to be so that he can feel more comfortable in the world with people behaving more the way that he behaves so he can feel more. Yeah. Mak: You justified in his own bad behavior, one might say. Lindsay: and also so he can feel more safe and accepted and appreciated if other people are operating in this way that's more comfortable for him. Talking from a place of being certain about what's right, even though he's saying throughout the book that that's not a good thing for people to do in general. Mak: Yeah, like he says, anti-moralism, moralist. I think we've said enough already to kind of end this conversation. Lindsay: ⁓ okay. Yeah, and I don't know how much of this is just like general tiredness or something and how much of it is just like actual heaviness of the book and the stuff. What? cool. They'll leave it. Sweet. That's funny. Like right at the end. Mak: That's your microphone. That doorbell. Yeah.