TRANSCRIPTIE 🔗
WEBVTT
00:00:07.519 --> 00:00:09.359
This is Inside Geneva.
00:00:09.439 --> 00:00:17.679
I'm your host, Imogen Folkes, and this is a production from SwissInfo, the international public media company of Switzerland.
00:00:19.839 --> 00:00:21.039
In today's program.
00:00:26.160 --> 00:00:35.759
I feel I'm monitoring the handbook for repression that the Russian government is using against its own civil society.
00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:44.079
And this handbook, unfortunately, has been copied by other leaders of democratic countries.
00:00:44.320 --> 00:00:48.479
Russia's last independent radio station has been taken off the air.
00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:08.640
Well, it's fake news.
00:01:08.719 --> 00:01:10.799
You know, it's just so it's so fake.
00:01:10.879 --> 00:01:14.560
That's why the media has so little credibility.
00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:19.920
This issue about the media has been there in the authoritarian rule book for a long time.
00:01:20.079 --> 00:01:22.319
Go after the media if you want to stay in power.
00:01:22.480 --> 00:01:29.760
What is happening now is that more and more countries we see an authoritarian trend coming generally into politics.
00:01:35.200 --> 00:01:37.519
Just be aware of this danger.
00:01:37.680 --> 00:01:39.439
Just don't let it happen.
00:01:39.760 --> 00:01:45.040
I'm watching now closely what's happening in the United States with closing of these programs.
00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:47.040
How is the society going to react?
00:01:47.120 --> 00:01:47.680
What will happen?
00:01:48.799 --> 00:01:50.239
Because this is how it starts.
00:01:56.640 --> 00:01:58.879
Hello and welcome again to Inside Geneva.
00:02:07.760 --> 00:02:14.400
And ask how it might relate to those of us living in what we hope are free democratic societies.
00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:16.479
How free are we really?
00:02:16.960 --> 00:02:26.000
Are press freedom the right to protest peacefully, or even the right to question your government being eroded in our own countries too?
00:02:26.319 --> 00:02:29.759
Should we be worried about creeping authoritarianism?
00:02:29.919 --> 00:02:32.159
And what are the warning signs?
00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:34.960
That's the discussion we're going to have today.
00:02:35.199 --> 00:02:44.400
We'll be hearing from UN experts and from writers and journalists who have first-hand experience of what repression of freedom of speech means.
00:02:44.639 --> 00:02:47.840
But first, to that latest UN report on Russia.
00:02:48.319 --> 00:02:58.479
Russia is now run through a state-sponsored system of fear and punishment, where dissent is erased and civic space dismantled.
00:02:58.719 --> 00:03:09.919
Mariana Katsarova, the UN special rapporteur on Russia, is the first UN expert ever appointed to investigate a permanent member of the UN Security Council.
00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:15.360
Her latest report was presented to the Human Rights Council's autumn session.
00:03:15.599 --> 00:03:22.000
It documents a repression so stifling that virtually all freedom of expression is silenced.
00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:31.840
And still, the remnants of civil society and independent media are being persecuted, prosecuted, and imprisoned.
00:03:32.319 --> 00:03:41.360
Immediately after presenting her report to UN member states, I caught up with Mariana Katsarova to hear more about her findings.
00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:22.720
So there is a strategic effort to distort historical truth about the past, particularly when this past was about dissidents and resistance to the Stalinist repression or the crimes that were happening.
00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:25.439
What does it mean for a society?
00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:27.759
I mean, this war has been going on more than three years.
00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:36.079
What does it mean for a society when it's a culture, its memories in a way, are being stamped on in this way?
00:04:36.480 --> 00:04:50.079
I think what it means for the society at the moment, the Russian authorities are using education to also destroy the outlook of the young to history, but also to the future and to the presence.
00:04:50.240 --> 00:04:57.839
There are these special lessons that they have for children, conversations about the important, lessons about the important.
00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:05.360
And the important is propaganda about Ukraine not being a state or the Ukrainians not being a separate country.
00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:20.800
At the same time, it's done in a way that, or on the background of distortion of historical truth about what Stalin did with all these dissidents and political prisoners, the millions that perished in gulags.
00:05:21.199 --> 00:05:42.240
And then the whole indoctrination of children about the war that is going on, trying to justify that it stems from the collective West being against Russia and Russians, and also that there are enemies of the motherland that need to be destroyed, put in prison, stopped.
00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:49.120
And these enemies are the human rights uh defenders, journalists, writers, uh humanitarians.
00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:58.240
But to hammer home the report's findings and to remind UN member states that there are still Russian voices trying to speak out.
00:05:58.480 --> 00:05:58.639
Ms.
00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:02.800
Katsarova brought Russian writers and journalists to Geneva.
00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:10.240
Some who still live in Russia gently refused interviews, fearing for their safety once they return.
00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:12.000
Russia's foreign agent law.
00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:15.120
No, it's not about spies and espionage.
00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:18.399
These days, it's Russian journalists that are in the hot seat.
00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:23.360
Others, like writer Boris Akunin, now live in the United Kingdom.
00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:35.120
He was recently designated a foreign agent by Moscow and sentenced in absentia to 14 years in prison for criticizing Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
00:06:35.439 -->
Load full transcript
00:06:40.959
So a foreign agent is anybody they do not approve of.
00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:56.800
It is not decided by a court of justice or something, just some government institutions which says that you're a foreign agent, which means you cannot write, you cannot publish, you cannot teach, you are branded.
00:06:57.120 --> 00:07:02.000
We've got a lot of debate about free speech in the so-called West right now.
00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:05.040
How do you perceive that debate?
00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:10.639
Well, I think that the West these days is in deep crisis.
00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:15.199
Democracy, traditional democracy, is in crisis.
00:07:15.519 --> 00:07:19.439
Reasonable and grown-up people have become a minority.
00:07:19.920 --> 00:07:27.519
I believe that political elites and traditional parties are all in total crisis.
00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:40.879
I think that we fail to understand that the tide has changed, that the world has changed, that the political system created by the fall of the Berlin War, it's done, it's over.
00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:44.959
We are entering a totally new world where everything will be different.
00:07:45.120 --> 00:07:53.199
I'm very much worried about what's going to happen in the UK, in France, in the United States, it has already happened.
00:07:53.920 --> 00:07:58.399
You mean moving from democracy to authoritarianism?
00:07:59.199 --> 00:08:07.120
Moving from moving from common sense to craziness on both sides.
00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:13.439
It can be leftist extremism, quite infantile.
00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:18.319
It can be right-wing extremists, which is even more dangerous.
00:08:18.879 --> 00:08:23.120
And there is a very tiny space in between.
00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:30.160
So what we are in need of, I think a total reshaping of liberalism.
00:08:30.399 --> 00:08:37.440
We need not a childish liberalism, we need a grown-up liberalism which brings us to freedom of speech.
00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:48.080
We need to be responsible, we need to measure what we say, not because we are afraid of being canceled or censorship, but because we are grown-ups.
00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:53.360
If we say something publicly, we must understand the consequences.
00:08:53.919 --> 00:09:04.320
Another big issue of Western democracy is inability to communicate with people who are less educated than yourself.
00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:12.720
This snobbery, this inability to compete with Trump, who knows how to speak with people.
00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:19.440
He can find the words, he can find the reasons, he can find the levers.
00:09:19.840 --> 00:09:21.840
Why cannot we do that?
00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:24.399
Our ideas are better.
00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:26.960
Well, I mean, anybody can tell lies.
00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:35.279
You don't have to lie, but I know that we in Russia we lost because we were too snobbish.
00:09:36.080 --> 00:09:41.600
There was a famous Russian saying which I absolutely hate, belonging to a famous Russian poet.
00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:48.960
It says, if I need to explain this, then you're not worth explaining it to.
00:09:49.120 --> 00:09:50.320
That's how it sounds.
00:09:50.480 --> 00:09:55.840
That's how we mostly talk to ourselves, to people who think like ourselves.
00:09:55.919 --> 00:10:00.240
Well, we should have talked to people who do not think ourselves, who are different.
00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:03.600
And the same thing is happening in the West, totally.
00:10:04.080 --> 00:10:10.559
From common sense to craziness, not an especially hopeful analysis from Boris Akunin.
00:10:10.720 --> 00:10:24.639
Also in Geneva was Belorusian writer Svetlana Alekseyvich, winner of the Nobel Prize for Literature in 2015, and author of Second Hand Time and The Unwomanly Face of War.
00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:38.240
Also now in exile from her own country and speaking through her tireless interpreter Elena, she shared Boris Okunin's concerns about the direction many current political leaders are taking.
00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:09.279
There seem seems to be a kind of lack of awareness in the world about what's really happening today.
00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:14.799
The same as 20 years ago we were thinking, well, you know, let it develop this democracy.
00:11:14.960 --> 00:11:17.519
Okay, it's weak, but it will slowly grow.
00:11:17.679 --> 00:11:21.120
And we were thinking, well, nothing bad is really happening around us.
00:11:21.279 --> 00:11:24.639
Let it do it its own, let it go its own way.
00:11:25.039 --> 00:11:36.960
And yet nobody is really taking it serious enough to work with young people, with the emerging generations, with people in general, to reflect upon what was happening to us, what is actually going on around us.
00:11:45.759 --> 00:11:50.559
And now we find our situation, ourselves in a situation when fascism is all around us.
00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:54.320
We are sitting here with fascism surrounding us.
00:11:54.480 --> 00:12:01.039
I think there is still this lack of understanding in Europe about what is actually taking place in Russia.
00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:05.200
They were saying to themselves, what not surely not fascism.
00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:23.600
We haven't developed the criteria to assess this new life we are living in.
00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:53.840
The White House has given Harvard an ultimatum to ditch diversity programs and muzzle campus activism or lose billions in federal funding.
00:12:54.159 --> 00:13:00.639
Are we in denial about Russia or about the new and repressive direction the world may be taking?
00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:22.879
In fact, the panel discussions Mariana Katsarova organized to allow writers like Akunin and Alexeyevich to share their views were completely full, standing room only, and there was testimony from journalists with first-hand experience of the risks of trying to report objectively from a repressive regime.
00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:37.679
After my arrest and detention in Russia, more than
nine months in prison.
00:13:58.320 --> 00:14:01.759
She has dual nationality, Russian and American.
00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:20.480
Charged with failing to register as a foreign agent, she spent months in jail before being freed in last year's historic prisoner swap.
00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:28.879
Now she asks people to remember the many journalists, lawyers, and human rights defenders who remain imprisoned in Russia.
00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:53.120
There are somebody's husbands and wives and their family members and they are real people who suffered and risked everything for their reporting just for us and other people to know what's happening in Russia.
00:14:53.440 --> 00:15:01.600
How do you see the freedom of journalists to report objectively on a wider scale?
00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:09.679
Obviously, this report is focused on Russia, but the climate, to me anyway, feels not ideal in other places too.
00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:11.519
Well, things are changing.
00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:18.639
I heard today from several people, and not only journalists, that freedom of speech and democracy are not for granted.
00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:22.000
This is something that has to be developed.
00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:25.440
This is something that has to be taken care of.
00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:35.120
And uh probably we we missed an opportunity of taking care of and cherishing democracy and freedom of speech some time ago.
00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:37.279
But it's never late to start now.
00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:43.600
It's never late to acknowledge how precious it is, how precious democracy, how precious freedom is.
00:15:43.919 --> 00:16:02.559
Interviewing these writers and journalists now exiled from their home countries because they tried to report, write, and express themselves freely, I was struck by their warnings to us to be alert for the signs of authoritarianism, of the repression of freedom of speech.
00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:09.759
The American TV network ABC has taken the late-night talk show host Jimmy Kimmel off-air indefinitely.
00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:15.360
When a late-night host is on network television, there is a licensing.
00:16:15.679 --> 00:16:20.159
If they're getting a license, I would think maybe their license should be taken away.
00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:29.360
The Russia Report was published the same week that in the United States, the late-night chat show host Jimmy Kimmel was taken off air.
00:16:29.600 --> 00:16:42.399
The significance was not lost on Irene Khan, the UN special rapporteur on freedom of expression, who points out that other governments have been adopting Russia's tactics for quite some time.
00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:51.440
I am concerned about shrinking freedom of expression, and it goes back even beyond uh what has happened in Russia since the invasion of uh Ukraine.
00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:59.519
My first mission in this current position as this special rapporteur on freedom of opinion and expression was to Hungary.
00:16:59.679 --> 00:17:05.680
And in Hungary, I discovered how the Orban government has captured the media.
00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:07.200
And they started.
00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:13.680
The first legislation that was ever introduced by that government was in 2010, and it was the Media Act.
00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:26.400
So it was quite clear that if you want to take over institutions in a country, if you want to entrench your authority uh in an authoritarian way, you start with independent media.
00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:44.559
You undermine them, you control them, and you know in in uh Hungary it is also, it's it's all uh manipulated through media ownership, where basically there is no independent, very little independent media that exists offline, whether in print or uh broadcast or radio.
00:17:44.799 --> 00:17:50.559
So I think this issue about the media has been there in the authoritarian rule book for a long time.
00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:53.119
Go after the media if you want to stay in power.
00:17:53.359 --> 00:18:03.039
What is happening now is that actually uh more and more and more countries, we see an authoritarian trend coming generally into politics.
00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:08.799
And of course, each of them are then looking to uh how to control the media.
00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:16.000
Russia has been incredibly uh complete in the way in which they have captured or removed all independent media.
00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:27.599
Uh, when they introduced the legislation, you know, against uh speaking about uh the invasion of uh Ukraine as invasion uh introduced a number of legislation way back in 2022.
00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:30.880
At that point, I called it an information blackout.
00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:38.160
And since then, of course, we know that it has only become deeper, and now uh independent media is outside across the border.
00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:39.599
Can I ask you then?
00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:51.759
Because sometimes I sense a certain complacency in what we often loosely term Western democracies, that they say, oh well, but that's Russia, it's not happening here.
00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:54.079
Are there signs that it is?
00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:56.319
And if if there are, what are they for you?
00:18:56.799 --> 00:18:58.640
I think there are worrying signs.
00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:07.839
I would say uh if you look at media ownership in Western democracies, for a long time that has been an issue that no one's talked about.
00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:15.279
The European Union did not require any transparency with regard to media ownership until the Media Freedom Act came in.
00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:18.640
So, you know, and and what we have what we saw were media barons.
00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:22.960
And the media barons, of course, reduce pluralism and diversity of media.
00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:26.480
That has been a problem, I think, in Western democracy for a long time.
00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:32.079
What we see alongside that now
happening are other ways of trying to gag media.
00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:38.640
We see an increase in slaps, these are strategic legal actions that are brought against uh journalists.
00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:46.000
We see that increasingly now in the US, where the president of the United States sues media outlets for defamation.
00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:51.680
And we see settlements taking place between the president of the United States and a media outlet for millions.
00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:56.960
Do you think those big media outlets in the United States rolled over too quickly?
00:19:57.119 --> 00:19:59.839
Because it's what that's what a lot of my journalist colleagues say.
00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:11.440
Well, it's uh not for me to sort of judge why they're doing it, but let's not forget that media outlets are commercial outlets, yet the job they do is a public interest job.
00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:21.920
So there is this sort of tension in these organizations where, for commercial purposes, the owners or or the top uh echelon of the media outlets uh want to settle.
00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:32.480
Whereas the real job, which is the public interest job of providing truth to the population to uh have a free debate on many issues, that is kind of forgotten.
00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:52.160
So that there is a tension there, and we see that tension working out in this political environment where the authoritarian trends are emerging across institutional capture, uh restriction on not just on freedom of uh the media, but on academic freedom, for example, or artistic freedom across the spectrum of freedom of expression.
00:20:52.400 --> 00:21:05.039
We took the freedom of speech away because that's been through the courts, and we will absolutely target you, go after you if you are targeting anyone with hate speech.
00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:17.119
And Mariana Katsarova agrees, we are witnessing repression of freedom of expression on a much wider scale than many of us could have imagined even a year ago.
00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:22.960
These tactics are not unique to the Kremlin, she warns, and we shouldn't be complacent.
00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:40.079
Well, what's happening in in um Russia and my role, I feel I'm monitoring the handbook for repression that the Russian government um is using against its own civil society, journalism, free speech.
00:21:40.319 --> 00:22:02.240
And this handbook, unfortunately, what we see in the world, has been copied by other leaders of other countries, democratic countries, um, which are starting to experience a clampdown on freedom of expression, of closing television stations and shows and newspapers.
00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:03.920
So I think it's a warning.
00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:10.799
I mean, the law on foreign agent, for example, which Russia uses against its civil society and cultural figures.
00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:16.000
Now, even in my country, Bulgaria, they're discussing to adopt such a law.
00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:21.200
Or, you know, it it happens in other countries as well.
00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:34.559
I mean, this handbook of repression or uh clamp down on freedom of expression is now um reaching uh countries and leaders of countries which uh for so long have been democratic.
00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:41.759
I mean, yes, it's within Europe, also the United States at the moment, and this is the warning from Russia.
00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:48.240
So we shouldn't really abandon the fight for human rights, the support for the civil society there.
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:51.599
Because it could happen to any of us in any country.
00:22:52.079 --> 00:23:04.160
You say that you feel that looking at Russia, it's a it's a manual for how to repress free speech, and you're expressed concern that other countries are reading bits of that manual and thinking, oh yeah, I'll do that.
00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:13.599
What are the key warning signs that in a democracy we should watch out for and how can we stand up for free speech?
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:35.039
Yes, when the truth becomes um a political commodity, when uh journalists are being um sacked or silenced or programs are being closed only because um a leader or um governments don't like the sound of truth or speaking truth to the power.
00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:35.680
Yeah?
00:23:35.920 --> 00:23:42.160
If that's not what journalism is about, and this is challenged, then this is the first sign.
00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:52.240
But it's also um not covering, even not allowing the news about events to be covered in its entirety, so the truth to be told.
00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:53.920
That's a warning sign.
00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:55.359
That's the first sign.
00:23:55.680 --> 00:24:11.599
And I think uh so many populists are coming to power, populist parties are coming to power in different countries, we see it in Europe, for example, who are preaching completely everything against the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:24.960
All the talks against uh refugees and asylum seekers and migrants and minorities, you know, LGBT, uh indigenous people, national minorities, the same as in Russia.
00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:41.839
The crackdown on LGBT persons, activists, the crackdown on indigenous people, national minorities, being pronounced extremist organizations, extremist people, and then being criminalized and imprisoned for being extremist.
00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:48.319
These are the signs, this hate speech starts now to be heard in our parliaments.
00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:51.599
It echoes the rhetoric of the Russian authorities.
00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:54.880
But then the Russian authorities are acting on this.
00:24:55.119 --> 00:24:58.720
I hope that we won't see this happening in our countries.
00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:18.559
And that's a hope shared by the writers and journalists I talk to, starting with Svetlana Alexeyevit, they too all warned against complacency and urged us not to stay silent in the face of
attacks on freedoms many of us, so used to them perhaps, may take for granted.
00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:31.519
There is a famous saying that the worst things are happening in the world when good people are keeping silent.
00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:36.079
So the good people in Russia, the good people in Belarus are keeping silent.
00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:40.160
Whereas the evil people in both countries are doing what we see in front of our eyes.
00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:51.440
So I don't think we should sing the odes to silence.
00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:52.880
I don't think it's right.
00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:58.079
Because we have, through our silence, we have lost our country in Belarus by being silent.
00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:01.680
Those people who are keeping silent, they should really do something.
00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:14.160
Just don't let it happen.
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:29.039
So I'm watching now closely what's happening in in the United States with closing of these programs.
00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:31.039
How is the society going to react?
00:26:31.119 --> 00:26:31.680
What will happen?
00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:34.079
Because this is how it starts.
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:37.359
You know, it's been more than a year since I got released from prison.
00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:39.279
Every morning I open my eyes.
00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:41.039
I'm so thankful.
00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:45.440
Like everyone involved who brought me back to my family for my children.
00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:46.799
This is exactly it.
00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:55.359
I know democracy and press freedom sounds very vague for people who uh live ordinary lives, right?
00:26:55.440 --> 00:26:59.519
As you said, okay, this conflict is happening there, why would I care?
00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:05.279
But uh actually, when it comes to you to your door and ring the bell, it's too late.
00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:14.480
Well, that's why, at least to be curious what's happening in different parts of the world, that's our duty as citizens of the free world.
00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:17.440
And um act small steps.
00:27:24.720 --> 00:27:35.440
And those powerful testimonies from Svetlana Alexeyvich, Boris Akunin, and Alsu Kurmasheva bring us to the end of this edition of Inside Geneva.
00:27:35.839 --> 00:27:51.759
We hope you enjoyed what they had to say, and perhaps you're motivated by their encouragement not to stay silent, to be aware, and to take steps, even small ones, to protect our precious freedom of expression.
00:27:55.680 --> 00:28:09.519
Coming up in future episodes of Inside Geneva, we'll continue the theme of freedom of expression by talking to journalists about the challenges and pressures around reporting on the conflict between Israel and Gaza.
00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:27.680
What Israel is doing, on the one hand, it has blocked access to international media, and on the other hand, it claims that local journalists who very often are working for international outlets are either Hamas associated with Hamas and it's not telling the truth, but Israel can't have it both ways.
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:33.839
All Israel has to do is to allow international media in and let international media see what is actually happening.
00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:41.599
And we'll be asking whether the United Nations, now 80 years old, can survive without the United States.
00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:46.000
A reminder inside Geneva comes out every other Tuesday.
00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:51.680
In the meantime, you can catch up on previous episodes wherever you get your podcasts.
00:28:51.920 --> 00:29:06.640
Find out what the laws on genocide really say, or how the International Red Cross unites prisoners of war with their families, and the impact on women and girls of the cuts to humanitarian funding.
00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:10.400
Don't forget to subscribe to us and review us.
00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:13.039
We're always keen to hear your views.
00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:14.880
I'm Imogen Folks.