Volledige transcriptie van #038 Learning from Millennials and Gen Z with Vivek Iyyani

career, I went into schools we did a lot of enrichment programs, like study skills leadership programs team building programs, what I wanted to do next was to move on to the universities and see if I can take the same kind of programs and maybe enhance that space.  So I was thinking, okay, how do I do that? One of the ways that I learned was maybe to look into what are the problems that they have. So I did a quick Google. And that's when it actually showed me a lot of the things around a new term that was called the Quarter Life Crisis. We'll go into that later. It was a problem that a lot of the young adults were facing, especially in these institutes so that kind of got me interested in, what is this problem? Is this a unique problem? And in that process, I came across a term millennial and I found out that I'm a millennial. I fall under this category. And I realized that, in this generation, we are a little different due to a lot of varying forces and factors.  So I just dove deeper into it. I started interviewing my friends about it. I started interviewing employers about it. I started interviewing university graduates. What are the issues that they're facing on the ground? And I realize everyone has a problem with one another. They have a problem with the system. They have a problem with the employer. The employer has a problem with the employee. So I thought, Hey, this is interesting. Let's take all this research that I have and put it into a book and then see if universities are interested. So what happened is I did the book I wrote the book empowering Millennials. It's written for the millennial who is going out into the workforce and kinda lost it actually attracted the attention of the manager's in corporate who started calling me. So that's how I came into this entire corporate space.  Sharad Lal: What a great story. And now you're doing work where you can help different generations actually connect and work better. In your research as you were looking at millennials, what were some of the big traits that you found, which are very unique to millennials? And maybe then we can talk about how those traits come about? Vivek Iyyani: one of the key things that I noticed amongst millennials is very key , millennial behavior. One is ghosting. Ghosting is when you go on a date the first date you meet the person you interact with. You laugh, you have a good time but when you go back and you start texting one another, the other person just doesn't respond. He reads your messages. He has a blue tick on all your messages, but he doesn't respond, and then suddenly he disappears. After a while you've been blocked on WhatsApp, Facebook, Instagram, all of the other platforms. He's just disappeared from your life, And you don't know why. That's ghosting, This is something that I think the younger generation learned. Due to social media platforms, it's become so easy for us to avoid a difficult conversation by just hitting the block button, right? Someones, you block them, someone irritates you, block them for a, then unblock them easier. For people to just block people off and disappear as opposed to having a conversation saying, Hey, yes, I know we went on a date, but I don't think you're a good fit. I don't think I see life partner material in you, or whatever it is. So that's that. Courage to have those kinds of difficult conversations is lesser in the younger generation, hence they tend to ghost. That's one. The second one, which is also related, is blue anxiety. Blue anxiety is when someone reads a message but doesn't respond.  And don't respond immediately, if you send a message to your manager on WhatsApp, they ticket you. That means they read the message, but they haven't responded. Millennials tend to second guess themselves. Did I send the message wrongly? Did I phrase it wrongly? Did I say something wrong? Should I have waited for a better timing? And I think all of these things are influenced by the way they grew up. They grew up in a time where all this. Software was available. So we all used to getting instant replies, and when someone doesn't reply and gives them anxiety to a point where they'll delete that message. And then rephrase everything that they wanted to say. And think, okay, maybe it's the phrasing that needs to work. I need to be more professional about how I say these things. They rephrase it and they send it again. But they don't call, they never call . They never call to verify, Hey, did you get my message? Did I say something wrong? Are you busy? What is it? They never call, because again, calling is not as convenient. And it takes a little bit of courage again to call.  There's one more that maybe I'll probably touch on, which I also talked about earlier. Quarter life crisis, very unique to the younger generations. They go through this thing called university or a tertiary education and then they go into the workforce. When they go into the workforce and they're under a boss, they see what working life is like. They see what adulting is like and they think, this is not the kind of life that my parents promised me. Once I study, do well, get a good job and you'll be happy. I'm not happy. Why am I not happy? I ticked all the boxes. I checked all the boxes. I did everything I was supposed to do. Why am I still unhappy? In the job that I thought I would really want. This brings them on a spiral thinking, where did I go wrong? What did I do wrong and how do I now find the direction in my life? That's when they go through this depression so we call this a quarter life crisis. You tend to see a lot of millennials switching careers going from employee to entrepreneur, trying out new gigs, having a side hustle sometimes completely just going off the grid as well, taking a gap year. Sharad Lal: Thank you. I know you talked about some other traits like openness. Confidence which many people might consider, let's say positive if I could use that word. Vivek Iyyani:

Yeah, actually there are so many things about their openness to diversity. So they're very open to people who are compared to the older generations lgbtq and all of the other letters behind, they're open to women empowerment, they're a lot more vocal about toxic work cultures and not holding onto it. In fact when I was on another panel, there was another millennial who was saying that we don't wear a toxic badge of honor. Why she said that was because a lot of the older generation tend to say that, back in my time I was abused. I was scolded, I was embarrassed in front of the whole room. And look where I am today. I'm successful, blah, blah, blah. And they wear it as a toxic badge of honor as if they have won the war. But that's a toxic culture, right? We have to recognize that as a toxic culture, and we should not wear it as a badge of honor. It's not something to be proud of. Yes, you went through that. It's unfortunate and you came out of it more resilient, but it's not something that we should encourage.  For the younger generation or for anyone else to go through. Just because you came out stronger than that. Not everyone may have come out stronger from those kind environments, so don't wear that as a badge of honor.  Sharad Lal: I love that toxic badge of honor. I heard this phrase for the first time. I've been doing some work on resilience myself, and one of the misconceptions about resilience is the hardship or the toxicity that somebody goes through actually makes them resilient when in reality, they become resilient despite of that, it's something within them, the choice to go on.  It's not the toxicity. So wearing that as a badge of honor, I completely agree, sends the wrong signal that you need to go through this toxic stuff to become resilient. But that's not the case. So I love that clarity of thinking by the millennial who you mentioned, who said that's great. Vivek Iyyani: Yeah, I learned so much from these kinds of sessions because they're sharing their real life experiences. They actually draw the boundaries really clearly, but of course they also second out themselves because what if this backfire is on me? If I draw the boundary and it backfires on? Then what do I do? So they are very very woke in that sense. How do I draw the line? how do I say it in a way that doesn't offend you, but at the same time gets my message across, I think these are the things that our generation, we struggle with because sometimes the expectations are based on what used to be. Norm back then, but doesn't have to be the norm today, The norm could have been toxicity back in the day, but that doesn't have to be the same today. The norm used to be that we work from the office every day but the norm has changed. The times have changed. The situations and circumstances have changed, so how do we then adapt and assert ourselves with the new norm? Sharad Lal: Great point, Vivek. There are so many of these things that have come about in millenials, like you

said, because of technology, but apart from technology, is there any unique way that millennials and Gen Z grew up, which was different from the older generation, which have brought out these kinds of traits in them? Vivek Iyyani: Apart from technology, we can look at parenting. One of the key things that even Simon mentions. The parents today paved the path for their children as opposed to letting the path pave the children, and making them resilient. They make sure all the obstacles are cleared from your path so that you have a smooth journey ahead. We call, we use this term called helicopter parenting, which is basically imagine the child is running to the roof of a building asking, screaming for help. You don't have to wait very long because there's already a helicopter parent waiting there to rescue you. So the helicopter parenting basically is the parent always rushes down. To really save the child from anything. I noticed this even when I was working with schools where teachers would tell me like, last time when we punish a child the parents will support us. But today the parents will question us. The parents will question every single thing we do because they're so supportive of their child. As if the child needs no discipline we do notice that, there's a sense of entitlement, there's a sense that my parents will always be there.   This has definitely impacted the kind of expectations that the younger generation have when it comes to adult figures. So when you approach an adult figure, they expect you to be like a mentor, like a guide, like a parent who's there to help me win.  But they get a culture shock when they go into the workplace and they say, Hey, this person doesn't really care about whether I succeed or not. They're just there to look out for themselves. So that becomes a mismatch. Even the manager gets a shock, like, how can you be so entitled and demanding of me by asking all these things as if I'm your parent or as if I'm here to spoon feed you everything, and that leads to conflict. Sharad Lal: So you have the millennials in the Gen Z who enter the workspace, and then you have the older generation. And I know a lot of your work focuses on getting these guys to work together. So what are some of the things that you do when you go to organizations? People work together and get a more productive workforce going. Vivek Iyyani: The first thing I do is to see if the generational gap is actually hindering productivity. I Increase the awareness of what generational diversity means. It's about having different people come together and working together and making sure everyone feels. Like they have a sense of belonging in that team that they're working at now, what you'll see a lot of organizations, especially the startups is a lot of the younger generation are forming together. You'll hardly see a lot of the older generation feel welcome or confident to apply to a startup. They feel I might not fit in that culture. In fact, I have one of my friends who used to be in hr. She joined a startup and she felt completely outta place because her CEO or the boss, the startup founder, goes to work in a t-shirt and shorts and slippers. And then he asked why you dressed so formally at work . And she goes in with a suit and formal attire. She was the only one in formal attire by the way.  So that is already one of the hurdles. We have a lot of open offices, whereas the older generation, especially those who have held a position for a while, find it very difficult to sit next to the new employee who just got hired the day before. And, you're sharing the same space. You are making conversation. It's very radical and different for them to immediately accept. It may be over time, but the younger generations have to understand where the older generations are coming from. What was your situation back then?  These kind of conversations need to be initiated,  It doesn't happen off a water cooler or a coffee conversation. It doesn't happen naturally. So it has to be facilitated. And that's where I come in. get them to ask questions about one another so the baby boomers can ask questions like, why do you guys do this? And then the Gen Zs like, why do you guys do that?  Having those kinds of conversations really help to build a stronger relationship and make them feel like, Hey, if I can work with you, I think I understand you a bit better now.  Sharad Lal: That's such a great point where it's getting that awareness in an informal setting, which you curate, where people can get to understand why certain behaviors happen. And once they start getting the context and start getting awareness of where other people are coming from, other generations are coming from, it becomes easier to understand.  beyond awareness, is there anything else that you do like a common code or some way that we will work as we move forward. Is there any action step that goes in that direction then? Vivek Iyyani: So once awareness is built, then empathy comes into play, how we can put ourselves in the other person's shoes, as a leader, you need to learn how to put aside your own opinions and experiences and expectations and be able to learn from the other person. You need to be willing to at least experience or listen to what the younger people have to say and then decide instead of just.  Just painting a wide brush and saying that, hey this is not gonna work. one of the stories I have for you on this is we were at one of the focus group discussions in an organization, they had this employee resource group for millennials. There was one GenX boss and pre Covid, by the way. We were discussing the possibility of a four day work week, they were saying, we can get things done from home, we can do this, we can do that. It'll really increase engagement, we'll feel more listened to and stuff like that.  And then the Gen X boss said, you guys, I know you guys are saying that all of these are good initiatives and it's something we

should look into. I just wanna share with you a story right from my friend in another *MNC who said that it's a horrible idea to do a four day work week because an eight hour day now becomes a 10 hour day. 10 hour days become very intense and people lose steam after that. They can't cope up with that. And immediately, the moment he said that, it was like a wet blanket on everyone. Nobody started talking. The mood of the entire room just changed cause he just threw in one example and look where we're today, very interesting. People are in a four day work week. A lot of organizations shifted to that model. We are working from home. So he had this idea that, if it didn't work from one organization, it wouldn't work for us. it's important for us to, especially for leaders to be able to empathize. The last part is to really train themselves up on skills. How do I communicate to you in a way that doesn't offend you, that doesn't make you feel slighted, doesn't make you feel that you know you're disrespected. And the older generation tend to have this way of, I'm older, I'm more senior, so you listen to me kind of attitude sometimes, and it shows when they are communicating with them and they just brush off their comments and laugh it off or turn it into a joke, these are the small things that you do that make a huge impact in them deciding whether they wanna continue under your leadership or not, whether continue, in this company or not.  So leaders first need to set an example by learning how to communicate with their people, how to make them feel cared for. And also entertain newer ways of doing things because the young people bring a lot of ideas, enthusiasm, energy, and if you knock around that one thing that they have to contribute, then what else do they have to contribute? So what do they think? My contributions are not worthy here. They don't listen to me, So I'm gonna take my stuff and go into a place where they appreciate my contributions more. That's why we see a lot of young people leaving organizations. That's one of the reasons anyway. Because they feel like the leaders there don't care for them and don't value their inputs. Sharad Lal: That's a great point where the leader has to set the agenda as you were talking about. I thought of an example in a family, because you have the same setting, sometimes they have, the parent is different. The parents are a different generation than the kids. And I heard this interesting story from a friend who I met just yesterday and she was saying that she was getting her kid who was nine years old to learn piano. And then when he said no she couldn't tell him that you have to do it. So she went and dug out data and showed him that, when you learn to play the piano, this is how you become better. He likes sports. It can help you in sports in this way. And she had to make a case to convince him, which I thought was very interesting when, and I thought it was in a positive kind of a way where you are looking at all right. I'm not gonna throw authority here, but let's try and reason. Let's try and convince the person and then the motivation is higher to do this. I think something like that can be used as you talk even about the workforce.  Is there any other thing in these discussions that you've seen where some people of gen X, et cetera, have taken a few traits that the millennials have and tried to incorporate them, and how have they gone about doing it? If you have any examples? Vivek Iyyani: Gen Xs are a little bit more open to different things. I think one of the things that the Gen X wanted was work life balance, but a generation being really small compared to the baby boomers. Their voices weren't fully listened to. They have in a way succeeded now because I think Covid really helped a lot of the individuals who are rooting for that. So that has, that is one of the key things I've noticed. Another thing I've noticed when it comes to Gen  X is known as a generation to be very independent, right? They prefer to work on their own. And the reason for that is because when they were growing up they were the ones who went home, there's nobody at home. They would have to maybe make themselves a meal and then sit in front of the TV and watch, because both parents are typically already working and busy and there's nobody there, right? So they're called the latch. But millennials on the other hand are very collaborative. Cause in schools they're told to work in teams, working group projects, a lot of those things influence them back then these team projects and working in teams. During school time was not so much of a thing. So when you mix both generations together, the Gen Xs are seeing how millennials love to collaborate. They love it like I'm going to do a school project, but at work, That's how they see group projects. So they see it as a fun thing. See it as something that we can all do together. I think the Gen X are also picking up some of those positive traits on collaboration sync. Sharad Lal: I, being a Gen X would agree to that, because collaboration came difficult to me and a lot of my colleagues, we were individual performers and seeing some of the younger folks, the millennials do it is of course, inspirational, but we have to do work to build that. .  Vivek Iyyani: One of the Gen X HR managers that I was interviewing for my book mentioned that he learned a lot about how millennials really stand up for their rights. And his rights are like last time. If you wanna apply for leave, you look at your boss's mood for the day. He is in a good mood. He's in a bad mood. And then you apply for leave, right? Whereas he has a younger counterpart in his team who's I'm just gonna apply whether he's in a good mood or not. Cause this is my entitlement, This is my right, I've been working for so long. I deserve this. It doesn't matter about his mood, what needs to happen is that I get a break. So he went ahead and he applied anyway that made the

person that I was interviewing, reflecting like, wow, I would. Think so much about something so simple, just to make sure that the chances of it being approved are higher. And here is this young chap who doesn't really care what the boss thinks. And he is saying, this is an, this is something that you know is my right and I get to exercise it when I want . So even that is something that he picked up and Yeah, I should be a lot more vocal in exercising what should be mine and what is mine as opposed to letting the authority decide what's right for me. Sharad Lal: The generation that I grew up, gen X and baby boomers, even earlier.  Asking for what you need is guilt associated with it. There's how the hell I can ask for it. There's roundabout ways of doing it. So I think that learning from them by asking for what you need and how they do it, sometimes it might come out in terms of arrogance, but being able to do that I think is a sort of thing. Vivek Iyyani: We want to have that psychological safety where I can say something and you don't put me down for just saying something or suggesting something, I have seen bosses who say, that's such a stupid idea. Where do you come up with these kinda things? it's so toxic, It really makes the person doubt himself. You literally destroy the person over time if this gets repeated.  Sharad Lal: Toxicity calling it out and saying that it's not the right thing is something that I guess millennials and Gen Z have brought to us and is something we can incorporate. I also like the point on boundaries where you mentioned these guys have very clear boundaries, which sometimes is again, difficult for Gen X let's say the work context we are talking about if you're on leave and someone asks us to do work maybe the whole family's waiting while you finish something and then we all go out. Whereas, the others can call out their boundaries that this is my leave time and stuff. So I don't know if you've noticed that as well. Vivek Iyyani: No, I've noticed that one of our family friends shared a story, she was getting a salary on time, but the boss wasn't. And this is a Gen Z I'm talking about didn't put in her cpf. And she was like, why isn't my cpf should I talk about it? Shouldn't I talk about it? So she hesitated for a while and then she asked the boss, and then the boss was like, yeah I'm not gonna run away with your cpf. We are already employed, I'm already giving you a salary. Why are you making this a big fuss? And this is a Gen X boss, right? So she may have kept quiet for a while. And then it happened for a few months and then she got so fed up. She said, I'm gonna call MOM. I'm gonna ask them what the rules and regulations are. I'm gonna see, am I right or wrong? Is my boss right or wrong? What are the things I can do? She educated herself on the rules and regulations, and then she drafted an email and said, if you don't deposit it this month, I'm gonna take this to MOM next month. Everything, all the previous months, cpf in the done and dusted. So it's all about being assertive when people are bullying you, right? You have to stand up to a bully and sometimes your employers tend to be a bully. It has been a culture where people bullied their subordinates for a long time. But let's think about working together. Not, you're not working for me, we're working together. So a change in the perception on how we lead people, how we bring out the best in them. Doesn't have to be with just the stick. ,  Sharad Lal: Just flipping it around, what have you seen some of the millennials and Gen Z take from the older generation and become better at work or better human beings? Vivek Iyyani: Oh, a lot of things. The younger generation are in awe of what the older generation tend to have. They have a sense of knowing what to expect, right? When something is new, right? Knowing how to respond when something goes as in an unexpected manner, they really have. Also a lot of. People who can stay in organizations for so long. And be committed, right? Because it is something that they cannot see themselves doing sometimes and they're really in awe of that. Work ethic is another thing that I've noticed the younger generation say that they have a crazy work ethic. The older generation have patience. Patience for doing things long term, seeing things in the long term as opposed to instant gratification kinda things. So are a lot of things that the younger generation can learn from the older generation as long as. They come together and say, Hey, there's a lot of things we can learn from one another, and that's why reverse mentoring is so cool because you get to learn different things from different people. Sharad Lal: I wanted to dig on that, reverse mentoring. How have you seen that? How does that work and how have you seen it work? Vivek Iyyani:  Imagine two lines, one line full of young chaps, and another line full of senior executives Facing each other, and then what we see is not just the senior mentoring the younger person, but it's also the younger person mentoring the older person. So if, for example, the younger person wants to learn how can I write better professional emails, or how can I stand up and showcase myself in a meeting, How can I get myself noticed? And how do I speak up confidently? The senior person can maybe share things about those skills and then the senior person says, I wanna learn how I can use this kind of technology to improve my productivity.  How can I use apps? How can I use softwares? How can I integrate these things? How can I do things faster and more efficiently? Because the young, the younger chaps are all about efficiency and saving time and productivity. So it's a win-win because you teach me something, I also teach something. Age should never be a barrier, but somehow, age has become a barrier. So how do we erase that barrier and at the same time get people to also build relationships?  Sharad Lal: That's such a great message, Vivek.

It's like different generations have grown up for whatever circumstances very differently, and they have some unique skills and some maybe unique shortcomings, And as we, as an individual, see where we stand. Let's say I'm in Gen X, what can I get from baby boomers? I've already focused on that, but what can I now get from millennials and Gen Z? And there's so many things. And if I start incorporating this, I become a better person at work, like you said more. I have better opportunities and I also become a better human being. And the same goes for millennials and Gen Z if they can incorporate stuff from other generations that have grown up uniquely. So we get these individuals who are more well-rounded, who work well together and are much better at both work and play.  I know we've spoken a lot, but just in terms of bottom lining what one piece of advice would you give gen X and baby Boomers on learning from the younger generation? Vivek Iyyani: When it comes to learning from the younger generation you have to put aside the worry that I will look stupid and they will laugh at me. They will maybe mock me or tease me or make fun of me even if that happens, it shouldn't stop you in your journey.  That shouldn't be a hindrance. A lot of people, especially the older generation, tend not to do things because they fear that they'll lose face. They fear that they look bad or they look stupid. You see this on social media. They don't want to post something on social media because they fear that. What will other people think? What will they say? What will they do? they self-sabotage themselves. So my advice to the older generation is don't self-sabotage yourself. Put yourself out there and fail forward. Keep on failing, learn from it. Keep on failing, learn from it. Keep on failing. Learn from it. Eventually, you'll get better than the one who's teaching you combined with your resources, your skills, your knowledge, You basically have a better hand once you've mastered the things that are in your uncomfortable zone. So it's a lot about going out of your comfort zone. Looking bad and at the same time pushing at it so that it becomes part of your comfort zone.  Sharad Lal: I love the word fail forward. That's a great word. Last question, Vivek, for the millennials and the Gen Z, what's the bottom line? One piece of advice for them on what they can learn from the older generation. Vivek Iyyani: For the millennials and Gen Zs, what they want to focus on is relationships. One of the key things we see from the older generation , which is very admirable by the way, is the way professionally they maintain relationships and see things in the long term. That's a lot of unlearning even for the millennials and Gen Z to stop ghosting people. Stop disappearing. Pick up the phone and call them, and don't wait for them to just reply to your text. The time you spend waiting on the text can be solved by just picking up the phone and giving them a call, which incidentally is something that the older generation always appreciates.  I just went to India the other day and sometimes in India we have these electricity cuts, and I observed something very interesting. It always happens around 8:00 PM at night. And what I noticed is on the left side where the Gen Zs are sitting next to each other with their phones, looking at their phones, and on the right side, very noisy. All the older generation talking to one another, there's no phone in sight. And they're just communicating and having fun and enjoying the moment, both of them in their own elements. But you notice that the younger generation tend to go to their phone when something unexpected happens. Like for example, you're having a meal with somebody, he gets a call, the person doesn't continue he doesn't know what to do when the person is on the call, so he looks at his phone. It feels awkward, right? To not do anything. This has become like our go-to device when we face boredom. I think we need to shift from that and start learning how to have conversations with people. Have difficult conversations with people and master those lifelong skills because it's all part of leadership and people management. Sharad Lal: That's a great message. Vivek, thank you very much for taking time out to talk to us. This is such an informative conversation, I think to all generations. All generations can take something out of it. And thank you very much for the great work you're doing, writing those books. I know your third book is going to be out soon and we will talk separately about that. So thank you very much for doing that. Keep doing all the good work you're doing. Thank you. Vivek Iyyani: Thank you. Thank you for having me, and thank you for letting me share all of these things. I hope it helps.  Thank you, Vivek, for such an engaging and informative conversation. Here's an action step all of us could consider if you're 40 or older. What can we learn from millennials and Gen Z? If we look at that generation with openness and see what we admire about them, that can give us some hints into what we want to incorporate in our life for millennials and Gen Z, you can reflect on what you could learn from the older generation. Best of luck. That's it for today's episode.  I hope you enjoyed it. We will be back with another episode two weeks from now. Hope you join us for that. Till next time, have a wonderful day ahead. Bye-bye.