TRANSCRIPTIE 🔗
speaker-0: Every woman who's ever had to flee a shelter, a hundred percent of them had their very first abusive relationship as a teenager. Not most of them, all of them. My guest today has spent 23 years in classrooms and she says what's happening right now with phones, with tracking, with boys and girls who think control is just what love looks like. Gosh, parents have no idea. I'm Jasmine London and this is First Movers. Today I learned that one in four women in Australia have experienced intimate partner violence. And that pattern almost always starts before adulthood, in classrooms, in relationships, and in those small invisible moments when a girl learns to doubt herself. I'm Jasmine London, and today we're going into the rooms where all of that begins. And I have the incredible Danielle Miller with me, co-founder and CEO of Enlightened Education, Australia's. ⁓ leading in school workshop provider. And Danny, you've reached over 25,000 young people. You do that every year, is that right?
speaker-1: Yes, and I've been doing this for twenty three years, yeah. So I reckon the numbers would be close to a million young women that I've worked with now. ⁓ my
speaker-0: Gosh, I think that is just so incredible. And as you know, like we've known each other a long time. I've followed your work forever. As the mother of two young girls, I am all about the work that you do in schools, particularly for young women. But also, what I should mention in this podcast is of course, you've got your Goodfellas program, which is very much about helping boys deconstruct sort of toxic masculinity. And of course, we're seeing lots of this at the moment with the rise of the manosphere. ⁓ you also hold an Order of Australia medal for service to women, youth, and education. I seriously think we have the right person on the podcast for this topic. I'm really, really excited to dive deep into how we can help particularly empower our girls to navigate, I guess, their relationships, the issues of consent, ⁓ their bodies and their confidence. So I wanted to start with ⁓ I guess a question. For a lot of the adults that'll be listening today, you know, parents, people that spend a lot of time around, ⁓ young people, it might be grandparents, aunts, aunties, uncles, what are you seeing at the moment in schools running the workshops that you've been doing ⁓ that parents absolutely don't know about and probably wouldn't believe you if you told them?
speaker-1: Great question. Before I answer it, can I just add one extra thing to my bio? Only because it has incredible relevance. I'm also director of education for women's community shelters. Yes. So I actually run all of their violence prevention scheme ⁓ programs through Walk the Talk. And we have thirteen shelters across New South Wales and Victoria. Every night, Yasme have about 200 women and kids who sleep with us safe who have had to flee violence. So I will also be calling on a lot of what I've learned through the almost decade ⁓ that I've been working with WCS. ⁓ and I think that's really important context. Yeah. Bringing forward the voices of survivors and the experience of survivors is something that I'm really passionate about. ⁓ and I will also say, knowing that, yeah, some of our listeners today may have their own personal experiences with sexism and with abuse. So if any of this content feels a little bit confronting for them, I would advise them to pause us, you know, have a glass of water, go for a walk, reach out. Don't put yourself in a situation where you're hearing content that you find really triggering without being able to process that safe.
speaker-0: That is such an important call out. And I really love that you shared that. And, you know, there definitely will be people who are listening today that will have either experienced it firsthand or vicariously. And it is really important to call that out to make sure that we're in a in a space where we're okay to listen to some of the themes that perhaps might come up today. So thank you for calling that out. ⁓ you talked about 200 women a day that are being. ⁓ that I guess trying to utilize the services of the the the women's community shelters. That is an insane number. And, you know, it's it's so important that we start to address this in a meaningful way. I mean, we've looked at the budget that's come out in the last sort of twenty four, forty eight hours and those of us that really care about this space, there's just not enough being done. And that's why I want to make sure that we're equipping people that are listening today with the skills that they can utilize in their day to day, that we're not reliant necessarily on government action, that we can, you know, create hope in every home, I guess, for lack of a better word. So
speaker-1: I love that purpose for it. I love that intention that you that you've set out there. And I love that we're going start, as your question initially asked me, back in classrooms, right? Because I do think let's just think small and and build from there. Yeah. ⁓ otherwise the issue can feel overwhelming, can't it, Yaz? Absolutely. You can look at these statistics, you can look at these numbers and think, well, there's nothing we can do. Maybe this is inevitable, but it isn't. I'm really full of hope. I really think that we can turn this around. And it starts small in classrooms and homes. And it builds into communities and then it builds into creating an Australia where women feel safe and equal. So back into what I see happening in classrooms, yes. There's a lot happening that I think would surprise, shock, and perhaps disappoint ⁓ listeners. And misogyny is not new. Let's be really honest. Sexism is not new. In many ways, we've actually come a long way, right? But the fact is that there is still this landscape. That girls are expected to absorb, where there's this casual sexism, where there's disrespect that's sort of laughed off or that that's assumed doesn't
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really matter. girls can be really articulate and socially aware, but at the same time not feel that it's safe to speak out about that, or perhaps be so almost absorbed in it that it starts to feel normal for them. ⁓ it starts to feel almost inevitable. ⁓ and so what we're seeing a lot of the time in classrooms is boys will perhaps get attention because when a boy is under pressure, he may explode and that gets noticed. But our girls will often implode and they'll internalize some of this angst, some of this anxiety, some of this feeling that they're not enough. ⁓ and that might manifest itself in increases in anxiety, in lateral violence in friendship dynamics, in ⁓ depression, eating disorders. they can be very highly attuned to judgment and very highly attuned to that being exposed to the male gaze. ⁓ and I definitely see in classrooms that that is still very much the case. And not even just for the students, right? Yeah. Lots of teachers I work with will say But they feel they're exposed to sexism in classrooms. Yeah. But they hear Snide comments about their appearance, that you know, they'll be barking as they walk through the playground. You know, pig noises, animal noises made. Yeah. That teachers feel they're asked questions that aren't questions that are being asked in good faith. They're questions designed to be provocative or minimizing. Totally. And so we've come a long way, baby, but so much has not changed and needs to change, you know.
speaker-0: Evolves, doesn't it? Like when you say that, it it reminded me of a recent trend that that was ⁓ made famous by TikTok culture, and that was like boys mewing, which is, you know, ⁓ it's a it's a trend that so many adults don't know about. It's actually like a an orthodontic exercise where you're kind of clenching the back of your jaw, but that was used as a way to ⁓ disrespect teachers, often female teachers, by saying that you're not able to answer questions when you're directly spoken at. And so it was used in a as an excuse to ignore people because I'm muing at in the back of a classroom. Right. So it's just an evolution, but the same level of disrespect, just, you know, I guess evolving in different ways. It's ⁓ interesting.
speaker-1: And I think it becomes obvious. So when we go into schools, if we're working in a co-ed school on respectful relationships and consent, I believe it's really important that the genders hear the same messages but in their own spaces. ⁓ and that's because I think the girls really need a safe place in which they can unpack their experiences of this. They can ⁓ share without feeling they're gonna be judged or have their experiences minimized. But equally I think the boys need a safe place where they can unpack their experiences of this, right? Without perhaps asking questions that might upset the girls. And and I don't think that the girls need to show their emotional wounds to the boys in order to have this taken seriously. So I think a really expert adult
facilitator who delivers these messages, but make sure that the space is trauma informed is paramount. But what's really interesting is that after we've had these experiences and we've had these amazing conversations and the girls are feeling really connected ⁓ and they've been able to explore this, we'll say, okay, we're gonna go back and work with the boys now because we're gonna get into a project when we're running walk the talk where you're gonna adopt your local shelter and do service. So that's the whole walk the talk model, which is brilliant. But what's interesting is that often when we say we're gonna go back and join the boys, the girls all grown and they sort of sound really sad about that. And and And I say to them, no, no, no, it's gonna be great because the boys have had this experience as well. The boys have been spoken to about respect, how to be a good ally, actually speak up when you as a young man don't think the culture's okay. Into this space, they're gonna be really welcoming and receptive and hopefully they almost always are, because but I think we need to do this groundwork for both genders in a really safe and informed way so that when they are coming together, they're doing that in a way that's meaningful and that we're minimizing harm.
speaker-0: When it comes to the education that boys need and we'll we'll we'll sort of unpack this a little bit more throughout the episode, but what are some of the key things that you're seeing that they need in 2026 and beyond? Like what are the asks, what are the challenges that you're seeing for them?
speaker-1: Yeah, I think young men and in fact older men are really being asked to take accountability perhaps ⁓ for some of the things they've done in the past that that aren't safe ⁓ and aren't respectful and that's okay. We shouldn't shy away from that. It's really important to take accountability for that. But at the same time to also give them access to support so that they can make better choices and feel supported to do that. But we've also got to remember, I think we Make the mistake when we talk about what young men are like of assuming that they've all bought into this manasy thinking. And that's just not true at all. Yeah. Like even Andrew Tate will say, you know, probably 50% of my followers are haters. They don't like me. They think I'm an idiot. Yeah. They're following to to watch the noise, to watch the circus, if you like. And certainly a lot of the young boys that I'm really close to, they don't buy any of this messaging at all. Yeah. So we've got to remember when you go into a room and you're talking about talking to young men, as my male presenter Jack does so beautifully, about what does it mean to be a good guy? What does it mean to be a strong guy? What does it mean to be emotionally brave? You know, for a lot of boys in the room, they're not finding that challenging. They're sitting there going, Yes, let's finally have this bloody conversation. Right. They're they're really ⁓ ready to hear it and responsive to that because often it's the vocal minority. That can make us think that this is a larger ⁓ issue than it probably is. Yeah. And I really think it's important that we push the message that actually most guys are good guys, right? It's not all men. We do know that. Yeah. But it the group of men that are disrespectful, ⁓ that are using power, that are choosing to pass on their trauma, that needs to be called out. Yeah. And they need to be accountable for that and they need to resolve that. It might not be their fault, as she's not your rehab often says, might not be your fault that you've grown up in an environment where you've learnt that aggression ⁓ is the way to get what you want, but it is your responsibility to fix that and work on that. ⁓ and I think this is a really interesting and important nuance in this. So certainly when Jack goes in and talks to young boys, the assumption is not that they're already all toxic at all. The assumption is that they're good guys and they agree with him that this stuff isn't right and what are we going to do about it? Yeah. Right. Collectively, what can the script be? How can we work together as allies? ⁓ and I think that's really important.
speaker-0: Yeah. I mean like going back to the the conversation around how much they believe in the messaging of the manosphere, I think it's something like sixty percent of of guys that follow or young boys that follow these sorts of influences don't actually believe in the messaging. But it's also about the fact that these environments address key Biological drivers like the need to belong, the connection to community, the, you know, the acceptance, even if it's not exactly who you feel like you are inside. So there's a lot of other factors that we need to understand are contributing to this. And I also think for a lot of boys, you know, they're they're growing up, many of them in an era where there is, you know, strong feminist messaging happening. There with we've had the Me Too movement, we've got A real ⁓ dynamic at the moment that is difficult to watch in terms of the rollbacks ⁓ of women's rights across the world, geopolitical stances that are being put into place. And there's anger, right? And there is a reaction, and perhaps they are being seen as the problem. And they don't fully understand the context and the history around why that is the case. And I think that's an important thing to take into account when we're having these conversations with them. And of course, that those reactions can be mixed. When we go to I guess your work with girls in schools and how you help them find their voice, because this is very important. I love that, you know, comment that you made earlier about the fact that she is not your rehab. It's really reflective of the way that this evolution is starting to go. But, you know, what makes a smart, capable girl go really silent in times where she should speak up? You know, you've
you've spoken about the dynamics in classrooms, but in your opinion, what are the less obvious indicators that are going to cause that silence.
speaker-1: Just to go back to the point that you made before, you talked about the fact that for young men, they have this strong need for belonging, as do girls. It's a fundamental need of adolescence to feel that you belong and that you're connected. And so whether it's boys or girls, I think one of the ways in which you can give people a voice is to know that if they do speak up, that people will have their back. Mm-hmm. So creating a sense of sisterhood for girls and creating a sense of of brotherhood for guys is really important, right? It's about giving you not sometimes scripts as well. Like got like for example, yesterday I worked with some Year Ten girls and I gave them a hypothetical. We're talking about consent. And I talked about the fact we go through the FRIES acronym that consent needs to be freely given, it's reversible. needs to be informed, it needs to be enthusiastic and it needs to be specific. It's a really great model. If anyone doesn't know it, look it up. Anyway.
speaker-0: As in French fries, that's the acronym, F R I E S. Love it. Correct.
speaker-1: Correct. Yes. So I was talking about informed consent. And then after we all agree that you can't give informed consent if you're really drunk, if you're off your face on drugs, if you're asleep, if you're unconscious, I gave them a hypothetical. So okay, you're at a party, you see a girl, she's really out of it, you see a guy sort of dragging her off to a bedroom. You're a good ally. You notice this isn't okay. How could you use your voice to speak up? How could you use your voice in a safe way to speak up? And then the the girls will give me some suggestions and we'll brainstorm those. And one girl said something that I thought was really brave of her and really honest. And she said, Honestly, I don't think I would say anything because I'd probably think I wouldn't know what to say and I would maybe think it wasn't my business. And so then we could unpack that, right? So it's it's it's quite okay to not know what to say. Yeah. And that's why situations where we brainstorm collectively, well, what could we do really matter? Because for a young person We assume they know how to deal with these really adult issues and they might only have childlike strategies to fall back on. So when you brainstorm it, maybe you could go up, pretend you know her and say, Hey, I've been looking for you everywhere, you know, come over here with us. Or maybe Yaz, ⁓ I don't know if it's safe to go into the bedroom and check on her. So I could say to some girls, even if I don't know them, hey, I just saw this girl getting taken off. I don't know if she's safe. Can you come with me? Let's check on her. Maybe you know the guy, and he's usually a really good guy. You could go up to him and go, man, you know. She's really out of it. You can't be with her tonight. So we're going through all of these hypotheticals. And that can make a really good, a really good foundation where you're giving them a language to understand that having a voice isn't always about knowing what to say, but it's about being open to learn what to say, right? Yeah. Yeah. None of us necessarily get it right the first time. And I think that is something that I find ⁓ problematic in our current culture online where it could be a bit of a call out culture. Yeah. And I think the problem with that is, right, that people don't feel that it's safe to explore or to offer suggestions or to even ask questions because they could get shouted down. Yeah. And so this is why I also again love the idea of having separate places for different genders because you can ask questions in a safe way because there's a great answer. Yeah. So you know there might be a boy in a session with Jack who might say ⁓ but what would you do if the girl lied and said you raped her and you didn't? Well, that's a legit question. There's a legit answer to that. But if you're in a mixed ⁓ gender group, there would be girls in the room that would find that question itself really insulting and perhaps triggering. Yeah. So I do think belonging is critical. And when it comes to belonging, you're more likely to feel that it's safe to use your voice. And if you've been given an experience and practice in using your voice, that matters a lot as well.
speaker-0: Yeah. One thing that came to mind while you were speaking as well around voice and and also relationships between boys and girls. And we spoke about this about a year ago over lunch. And I remember you saying that a lot of the time when it comes to protective behaviors from boys in the way that they perhaps treat their girlfriends and it might might even be considered coercive control or or controlling style behaviors. I need to have access to your phone. I need to be able to see your messaging. I'm commenting on your outfits. with the lens of I'm protecting you. Can you unpack that a bit? Because that's come out for me as you're speaking about having a voice for a girl, that these perhaps might be barriers or complexities or invisible dynamics that are going on in that same conversation.
speaker-1: That's such a great question because it's hugely concerning. And now we've got to a point where it's really considered quite normal in teen relationships that you would let your partner track you, that you would let them have access to your passwords on your phone. Yeah. And so you've almost got to to work against that assumption and explain to them that love isn't control, right? Love isn't anxiety. Love isn't restrictions. Love is freedom, trust, mutual respect. But what makes it really complicated too, Yaz, is I think sometimes we as parents have confused that a bit too. So a lot of parents think that it's really normal to trap their kids. Yeah. And as I say to girls, right? If you as a family like to have an app
where you can see we ch where each other are because you like knowing that when you get off the bus, Mum knows where you are, or you like being able to look, ⁓ wow, Mum's near Maccas, let's call her and get a cheeseburger. It's totally fine. But if the way that is working in your house means that there's constant tension, there's anxiety. I mean, I hear mums who'll say to me, you know, I I'm sitting at home checking the app and I can see she's not home and and and I'm checking all day and I'm thinking, why? Like why are you doing this to yourself?
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Right. It's not healthy for you as the parent. It's also a false sense of security. Just because you can see where a little moving dot is doesn't mean you actually know what's happening anyway. 100%. So if we have normalized that pattern of control as parents, it's no wonder that it feels kind of normal and familiar when you're in a relationship. And it's not something that we want to create a sense of normalcy around. Yeah. And so when we explain this to teenagers, you can see that they kind of get it, right? And there'll be a lot of boys who'll say and and and I'm serious, probably every session he runs, there'll be a lot of boys that are brave enough to go up to Jack, often privately after a session, and say, you know, a lot of what you said about controlling outfits and apps and text messages, I do that. Yeah. To my girlfriend. ⁓ yeah. It's probably not okay, really, is it? Like, how do I stop that? Like Am I may distrust her?
speaker-0: How do you stop that? Like I guess that's the question, right? Because they'll have an amazing session with you. And you know, you can see the light bulb go on, I imagine, for so many of them. But then they walk out the door, and while the school, of course, I'm sh assume has resources to implement and you know, all of the follow-on ⁓ actions that you would recommend. They go back into a household where that sort of behavior has been normalized and environments where that is accepted as the status quo. And I think one of the things I'm passionate about is as a you is disrupting these sorts of patterns. So what can they do in these moments? How can we take that ⁓ moment of conversation, that light bulb going on and actually keep the light on? Like what do they do?
speaker-1: There's a yeah, so there's a couple of things. Firstly, I will say that in my work with Enlighten, you're quite right that we will go in and have these conversations and then we leave and whether that's followed up or not, to be honest, is in the hands of the teaching gods, right? But with the Women's Community Shelters Walk the Talk program, what I love about it and why I'm so passionate about it is we have that conversation. That's phase one. But phase two is they walk that talk and they adopt their shelter for the year. So the girls and boys work together and do service for that shelter. They might make welcome packs. They might ⁓ do an awareness raising campaign. They might raise money. So that very act means that that convers those conversations, that feeling, that energy around respect, equality, working together in a different way, challenging our preconceived notions, continues for a year. Yeah, great. That is just like ⁓ a lateral.
speaker-0: Embedding, embedding and changing behavior.
speaker-1: So I cannot help but think, yes, if I was a young person who perhaps had been, you know, somewhat controlling in the past, somewhat difficult, I had this conversation, it really meant something. Then I had this experience of being a really good person in my community and serving that shelter and all of the great feedback I got from that, ⁓ and how good that made me feel. Man, that's gotta shift something in you, right?
speaker-0: For sure, for sure.
speaker-1: Because also what happens is the norm, we've talked before, everything's all of our little threads are starting to connect here, yes. We've talked before about how belonging is so important when you're a teenager, right? Everyone in your grape, all of a sudden the the culture in your peer group is you know what? We walk the talk on this stuff. We don't just give lip service to equity and respect.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: We're prepared to stand up and be active allies. Wow. Right? If that's your cultural norm, you you you you you rise to that. Just to be the one, you know, dickhead down the back of the classroom who's making sexist noises when everyone else is out there making welcome packs for the local shelter and doing a sausage sizzle to raise money to get some nappies for the new babies that have just arrived. You know, like it it's it's it's action. I I I
speaker-0: How do we
speaker-1: designed walk the talk because I got sick and tired of all of the talk and the wearing like little badges on our thing and thinking that's enough. Like, no, no more. Exactly.
speaker-0: Exactly. You know, it's something that's actually going to create behavior change. And you s as you say, it's that standard you walk past is the standard that you accept. We need to raise the bar, but we need to give them legitimate tools to do that so that it can happen en masse. It is, you know, not going to work if you are one single passionate person and the environment in which you're in doesn't support that change. It's got to be more than that. And that is, you know, a year in that program. I can only imagine the is significant and massive changes that come as a result of that. I think it's increasing
speaker-1: thing you said then that I think ⁓ I have also been struggling with and that is the idea that okay let's just say you've had this amazing conversation with us and you're you know you you're across what a healthy relationship looks like you know what your relationship red flags are you've had coercive control explained to you lots of light bulbs have gone on then you go home and maybe that isn't the culture in your home and you're right yes that is difficult. It
isn't. I struggle with that as well because ⁓ safety matters. And I think I have sometimes worked with, you know, I I that's not gonna fix what's happening at home for her. You know, I grew up in a home with domestic violence. Would that environment in my home have suddenly become more respectable because little Danny Miller sat in the classroom and had this session? No, it would not have. But you know what would have happened? I think I would have gone to bed.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: that night thinking my instinct was that this isn't right and it's not. Yeah? Yeah. And that actually would have been quite ⁓ life changing. Because in your home you're told this is right, this is normal, this is how it goes. Yeah. Right.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I imagine coming home in that situation, Danny, while you might think that you've had this light bulb moment, ⁓ speaking up about your learnings in a household like that could put you in more danger, right? I imagine it creates a a really threatening environment for the status quo that's disruptive.
speaker-1: Yes. It could. And and actually it's interesting. I was recently asked by a school to run a respect and consent session where parents and teenagers would be side by side hearing these messages. And I actually declined. Yeah. Because I said that I wasn't sure that would be safe for those young people. Because I feared that if there's an abusive dad there and his daughter's sitting next to him and he's hearing all of this. We know that these kinds of conversations can be really triggering for perpetrators, for abusers. Yep. That I did not want her to be stuck in the car on the way home. Yeah. With that simmering, that tension. I think it's really important again to make sure that everyone has a safe place. So I would be prepared to have those conversations with parents perhaps separately, be more mindful then of some of the things that you're saying and how you manage that. And to have conversations with teenagers separately.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: ⁓ I don't think we should dismiss the fact though that knowing this can be protective in and of itself. That that knowledge is power and knowledge can be quite ⁓ important. Like I remember once asking ⁓ one of our shelter managers what percentage of women who end up in relationships that are so abusive they need to flee and come into a shelter would have had early teen relationships where there was also abuse. Mm-hmm. And she said, ⁓ a hundred percent. Right.
speaker-0: A hundred percent. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, she said a and it's so we assume teen romances are puppy love. They're harmless. They're formative. Yeah. Right. If you have a teen relationship where there's abuse or there's been high levels of control, that can feel really familiar. So in your next relationship, perhaps you're not noticing the flags as much. Perhaps it feels like this is what love just is.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well that's all you know.
speaker-1: And it's not to say we can't break the cycle, right? I mean, I grew up in a home with with with domestic violence. I was a victim of family violence as a little girl. I certainly haven't continued that pattern. in my my relationships or in my home. But it's work. ⁓ it's work to always be really conscious of the fact that we need to make different choices, that we need to ⁓ be aware, that we need to be informed.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: ⁓ that we need to also as women, I reckon, ensure that we are independent financially, yeah.
speaker-0: ⁓ this is a massive thing, isn't it? Financial independence. I mean, we talk a lot about domestic violence, but so often we think about physical violence. And there are many others on that flywheel of harm. And I I remember being in the police working in Rose Bay and you know, a lot of the kind of sentiment around that area because it was very, you know, high net worth postcode was yes, there are problems, but are there the issues that we perhaps might see in outer western Sydney? but what I found in those environments is there was much higher levels of those other forms of abuse. So financial abuse, emotional abuse. You know, we had people that were withholding medication from elderly parents in order to get the, you know, the assets and the income when they passed away. So all of these other areas that we don't think about, ⁓ these are the invisible dynamics that that we all need to be aware of. ⁓ and I just before I do forget though, just going back to what we were talking about earlier when we have parents in the same room as kids or well intentioned ⁓ community forums or events where we're trying to raise ⁓ you know, people's level of understanding here. I just wanted to get you to defined define what trauma informed practices are for the audience, because I think that's pretty relevant here in terms of that conversation.
speaker-1: 100%. So any session on this has to be trauma informed. And what that means is that as a facilitator, you are assuming, because statistically this is the case, that people in that room have their own lived experience. They've either got past experiences with domestic violence, family violence, sexual assault, or they could currently be in a situation where that is the case. So knowing that, you need to manage the emotion of the room and the safety of the room. So it's actually a really skilled thing to do if you're doing it well. And it means that when people leave your room, they should know exactly how to get help, but in a meaningful way, not just here's the contact lines. There's actually a lot more to it than that. ⁓ it means that they should know, ⁓ yes, they should know what are red flags, what are green flags, but they should also know how to handle disclosures from other people, how to have these conversations in a really safe way. They should know how to be active allies and they should be leaving your session feeling Understood, feeling seen, feeling safe, right? I always
say to the girls, I guarantee you that when you leave this session, we're all gonna be like, amen, sister, like slay, like we're gonna be like so positive, so upbeat. Yeah, no one is leaving my session crying. Right. That would be ⁓ if they are their happy tears. And so it's a whole journey that I'm taking them on.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: And when you do get to parts of the session that can be more emotionally challenged, yes, challenging, yes. You need to be really clear about that. So at one point in the session, and I pre warn girls right from the start that this is gonna happen, I'll say to them right in the beginning, we've got a whole different I've got a whole different ways of creating safety, including sharing my story and building vulnerability with them and trust. ⁓ even telling them all my credentials so that they know they can trust me. You know, we do a whole lot of stuff. The groundwork really matters. But then I'll say to them, okay, at one point in this presentation, we're going to talk about our relationship red flags. And that is the material that is the most confronting to hear. And that's going to last about 15 minutes. So you're going to know exactly what to accept. In that time, if you find the content a little intense, you manage your own mood. You're your body boss. So if you need to go and take a break, go and get a glass of water. You don't have to sit through this. That being said, I can tell you hand on heart. But even girls who have had the most horrific experiences with abuse have told me that the way I handled this and explained this was deeply healing for them. So if you can try and sit through it, see how you go. Yeah. ⁓ and then, you know, they do. They'll they'll sit there. And I've had girls afterwards who have said, you know, I had one one girl just last month, yeah, so came up to me at the end and she was teary and she gave me a hug and she said, You know, I'm gonna court next. month I was sexually assaulted a year ago. I found this really healing. And one of the most healing moments was when you were talking about this and you were getting everyone to kind of go, yeah, like I agree, that's not on. Victim blaming and everyone's kind of, Amen. And, you know. And and so we're so afraid that we're alone in our experiences. We're so scared of being shamed and being misunderstood. But to hear collectively, I believe you, I care, and you are not alone, man, that's like that's some healing stuff, right? And that's what we need to create ⁓ in in these in in these sessions. Yeah. ⁓ there's other groups that do things a little differently. And I have heard that sometimes when these sessions are held, that kids can leave, you know, crying and feel really vulnerable. And that worries me. You can't be opening the can of worms and then exit to the car park. ⁓ it needs to be managed really well.
speaker-0: Gosh, that is it's I'm so hopeful for our future generations that people like you are in schools doing this sort of work. ⁓ you know, and I I think it's important, which we'll get to is how we can replicate this sort of stuff in our homes. How do we translate those messages back? Because we as parents we're we're dealing with our own emotions, perhaps our own past trauma, our own ability to regulate, ⁓ you know, all of these other dynamics are there. So I do want to get that. But I had a quick question as you were speaking. And I wanted to get your opinion on it. Is that in Victoria, there's recently been an announcement, I think, for a men's mental health commissioner, ⁓ is that might not be the right terminology, but a a mental health minister commissioner, a large focus on that. What's your take? Or what would you say as a response to a a politician, for example, who says that we need to focus more on boys right now? Because as I'm hearing you speak, this is, and I know this to be a gendered crime, gendered issues. Like with the focus of our community moving towards boys and the work that you do with girls, like how does that weigh up? What would you say about this mental health commissioner for men?
speaker-1: Well, I wouldn't say necessarily about him, but I would say that our compassion and our care for boys shouldn't require girls to disappear from the conversation. And I fear that at the moment that is happening. It's certainly the funding is being disproportionately channeled into supporting young boys. And there seems to be this assumption that if we spend lots of money supporting boys, then that's gonna equal better behaviour towards girls. It may or it may not, right? Because ⁓ and in the interim, anyway, if we're if we're thinking that this might change attitudes, belie and beliefs and that boys down the track are gonna be what's happening in the meantime though, because the damage is now. the girls who are the victims of this, who are surrounded by this, who are they in the classrooms now. Yeah. So what's being done to support them? I think we can't be erasing their experiences and any work we're we're doing in this prevention space to hold both truths that boys matter and working with boys matter, but girls matter as well. Their pain matters, their experiences matter, and the abuse that they're experiencing matters. And these shouldn't be competing priorities. But I did a rough tally the other day, and look, I I
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: I w it was rough tally, but it was millions of dollars have been given both at a federal and state level towards programs targeting specifically young boys. And I couldn't see any funding that had been given specifically at programs targeting young women. Wow. And that worries that worries me a lot. ⁓ both issues deserve support and I am feeling really frustrated at the moment that that we're not recognising this.
speaker-0: No. Yeah, I think that's so important. And the reason I raise that again, and we have talked about the boys versus girls thing, is there will be people listening to this that are
parents of both. Perhaps they have both genders, maybe their parents are boys or all girls. And yeah, I feel like we tend to, you know, we tend to sort of migrate into one side of the pack. And it's important for us as parents, when we're addressing this in our homes, to have the facts, to have the information, to be able to speak. with credibility to the issues that are going on, to then be able to advise our kids. ⁓ and then of course, using those strategies that you've mentioned throughout the session, you know, the the knowledge and the ability and confidence to start implementing those sorts of changes. what else would you advise parents to do? Like what are some quick wins that they can start to implement at home? What's a conversation starter that they could use today after listening to this podcast, what's an action that's gonna show their child that they care or they feel seen, that they're invested in this this really complex landscape that they're in.
speaker-1: Yeah, I think it's really important to realize that we're not powerless as parents. You know, we are we spend a lot of time with our kids, first of all. But beyond that, you know, our voices do still matter. And one of the things that we could do short term that could be really helpful would be to inform ourselves. Because a lot of the thinking around things like consent have really changed. And you know, when I talk to I'm fifty six, when I talk to women and and men my age, the way we grew up, some of the things that we accepted as normal and seemed okay are just not okay anymore. Yeah. ⁓ and we can see that. We can go, ⁓ man, some of the stuff that happened when I was fourteen and fifteen was bad, bad
speaker-0: movies at the moment, right? Like I was was watching Beetlejuice with my twelve and nine year old over the weekend, remembering really fondly about that movie. Yeah. And the innuendo and the sexism and the comments in it, it's like wildly inappropriate now. Another one was Drop Dead Fred. I don't know if you remember that one, but that was like, you know, a girl having a with a fictitious, you know, friend that was highly inappropriate in many ways. So yeah.
speaker-1: Grease. I mean, it it the whole premise of the show Greece is, you know, that he kinda met this girl and he lied about who he was and he got her to do things she wasn't particularly keen on and you know, and she had to change herself. She had to become
speaker-0: Biggest one. Disney. Beauty and the beast. Like you'd be all over this. But like that's another one, you know, that this beast g grabs grabs a w girl off the street off her little cart, puts her in a cell and expects her to fall in love with him. Like
speaker-1: And the story is that your love can change him, right? Your love can transform him. If you love him enough, you will get your happy ever after. Yes. So I reckon the thing is as a parent, educate yourself, but speak up. Like call stuff out. You know, be that person. Like I was absolutely
that parent, which will surprise no one, who, when we were listening to a song or watching a movie, would go, you know, does that feel comfy to you? Or do you think that seems fair or Asking questions, challenging them, getting to
speaker-0: Words fair. That's a great word.
speaker-1: Telling them what to think, encouraging them to think. Like I often say in our work, enlighten our approach to working with teenagers is not we're gonna tell you what to think, we're gonna encourage you and teach you how to think, right? That's a big difference. And it will surpr and ⁓ and I am thrilled. I mean, my daughter, for example, is currently doing her PhD in feminism at university. I mean she's been having those conversations, man, since she's five. I've trained her well. ⁓ but you know, I think
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
speaker-1: It's really important that we that we don't become blase to this. We don't let this become the landscape that we walk past as well. And I was thinking about another really simple thing that we can do is we can pause before we start to fall back on old stereotypes. for example, so often I see women ⁓ and mums say things like, Well, you know what girls are like at that age, they can just be so bitchy. Or they can just be so clicky, or you know, well, that's just girls for you. And I always ask them to pause and think about that because it is true that all ⁓ particularly early adolescent relationships can have power dynamics ⁓ and can have elements of control, but it's not really gender specific. It's just that we're we judge that in a really different way. I mean, if you asked any boy who went to a boys' boarding school, was it all, you know, ⁓ bells and whistles, he'd probably say no. They were definitely power dynamics. They were defin
speaker-0: This is the nature of humans, right? There are always power dynamics at the end. Exactly.
speaker-1: Lord of the Flies stuff, right? It's interesting too, yeah. Sometimes even teachers will say to me, ⁓ but you know, the boys are so much less complicated. If they get into an argument, they just have a punch up and then it's all over as if that's it's really great that they just punch each other.
speaker-0: Right. It's funny how we just fall back onto those old narratives. I think another one to add to that is that, you know, as a parent, God help you when they the girls are 14 and 15. They're a nightmare. And you know, I've got friends as well that have really been amazing in challenging that and said, you know what? When my girls were 14 and 15, it was one of the greatest times of of my parenting journey. You know, we had great humor, great conversations. They're really smart and intelligent, have a lot to contribute to the conversation. So, you know, we do need to challenge that a lot. And it a lot of it, I guess, comes down to pulling ourselves out of that comfortable place where we're all very agreeable and we're not wanting to sort of rock the boat in a group conversation.
speaker-1: Yes, you know, it's because and I've seen this at the moment too, right? So what does tend to happen historically when there's ⁓ environments that are very misogynist, very sexist, there will be some women who choose to side with the oppressor, right? The pick me girl.
speaker-0: The proximity to power, is that right?
speaker-1: If I just kind of go, Well, I'm not like those other girls. I don't really have a problem with it. I'm a bit more chill, you know. Can I say to those girls and women, this does not usually end well for you, right? Mm-hmm. Margaret Adwood warned of what it might be like to be a pick me girl in The Handmaid's Tale. Siding with the oppressor rarely ends well.
speaker-0: Check out Pam Bondi and Donald Trump, you know, the women throughout the Christy Nome, all the ones in this scenario that have been pretty quickly flicked.
speaker-1: Not your enemy. No. And boys aren't your enemy either. Sexism is, ⁓ inequality is. ⁓ and these things impact on both genders. Yeah. But we need to be really clear when we're parenting that we're not falling back on those kinds of tropes, those kinds of stereotypes. You know, I hear parents say things all the time that I know they don't have any ill will in saying, even things like, ⁓ well, ⁓ you know, she's gonna Is that your boyfriend as soon as a girl is talking to a boy that she's friends with? Or perhaps they'll say things to the dad, like, ⁓ you're gonna have to have your shot done ready with that one or
speaker-0: Such a big one. And that's that protection mechanism again, you know, where ⁓ I'm gonna have the shotgun or the baseball bat ready. It's so like dated. Let's rethink
speaker-1: To empower her to know handle how to handle it. Because let's be honest, the boy's not going to be rude to to he to your daughter in front of you anyway, right? So and rather than going for the for the for the baseball bat, how about go for some empowerment, for some conversations around some script building together? Script building. Some building courage, giving her experiences of courage of finding her voice, acknowledging when she does that.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-1: ⁓ and building up these honest conversations where where if they don't get it right, we're we're okay to listen to that and to be receptive to that.
speaker-0: What I'm hearing from you is that it's really like everything else as a parent's a capacity building, isn't it? It's not being the protector, it's about accepting our role as the enabler and the capacity builder of our young people so that they can go out there and have all of the skills to manage this themselves. And we play that supportive role. ⁓ but I think, you know, you sometimes need to have ⁓ you know, you need to be quite mindful that that transition has to happen and how quickly that happens is obviously different for a lot of young people and a lot of of families for various reasons. Talking about all like we've covered so much, but I I wanna kind
of nail down, if you can, for everybody listening, we've gone through consent, we've gone through signals, we've gone through the boys versus girls dynamic. If someone only remembered one thing from this conversation, the shift that needs to happen to create a more equitable world where girls in particular feel that they can thrive and boys don't feel that they are the problem. What would you want that to be?
speaker-1: It's a it's a tough one. I love I would probably need time to think about that. Only because if I could only give if I could only give one thing, I'd want it to be really carefully considered. But the first thing that is
speaker-0: What comes to mind? What comes to mind first?
speaker-1: That is coming to mind is that being easygoing is not the same thing as being safe, right? So whether it comes to working with our boys, working with our girls, in our homes, in our schools, if we're really serious about shifting dynamics, then we need to do things a little bit differently. And we need to be prepared to be brave and we need to be prepared to call stuff out that ⁓ the status quo is not good enough. You know, yes, in Australia, I mean, I know you will know this, but let's just both collectively sit with this for a sec. That in Australia, this so-called lucky safe country, one woman a week on average is murdered by a current or former partner. Yeah. Like, wow. That's I feel like we've almost we've almost come to accept that as an inevitability. But I think it was a burnability.
speaker-0: Dis inhibition about it too, because you when you hear that number, like you have to let that land. One woman a week is murdered by a a an intimate partner. Like it
speaker-1: Right. It makes me sometimes when I speak that I feel like I'm gonna cry. ⁓ and I think that's really valid. It should move us still. You know, I think it was a journal a journalist, Annabelle Crab, who said, if one Australian a week was being eaten by a shark, we would drain the oceans to keep people safe. Absolutely But when this happens to girls and women, we're not taking it seriously enough. And we must, yes. So we have to have conversations like this. We have to be prepared to be difficult and push back. We have to be prepared to go on LinkedIn and say, hey, there seems to be a lot of funding going towards boys. Where's the funding going towards girls? We have to be prepared to say to politicians, if you're serious about shifting things around domestic and family violence, why aren't you funding it? Like women's community shelters, we've got thirteen shelters. Our funding model relies about fifty percent on government funding that we get. But the rest of it we have to find ourselves in communities. We have to run raffles for, we have to like host events for, we have to Beg and borrow from philanthropy.
speaker-0: fourteen shelters nationally.
speaker-1: We have thirteen shelves across New South Wales and Victoria at the moment. But the need is huge, right? Vacant. ⁓ that's a drop in the ocean. For every night that we have a bed vacant, we have on average two women who need that space. And we have to make that difficult sophie's choice about who do we give the space to. So, you know, we can't be complacent about this. We can't just think that this is not a conversation that this is a conversation that can wait, or that it's gonna be sold
speaker-0: I mean that's
speaker-1: It's gonna be solved by making boys feel better about themselves, or it's gonna be solved by shutting down Andrew Tate. ⁓ it it's more complex than that, it's more ingrained than that, it's more nuanced than that, but it is gonna require courage and it's gonna require some of us to be jitty good women, right?
speaker-0: I mean, I love playing a difficult woman. I kind of like I'm thrilled about it because we need it. We need it. Now this is a perfect little segue because one of the things that we do on every show to wrap up are what we call the fast five, which is around our first movers framework, fueling growth, igniting courage, reframing relationships, shaping the status quo, and telling your story. So I'm gonna ask you a question on each of them. First thing that comes to mind. Okay. When it comes
speaker-1: I hate this by the way, Yaslan, because I I'm I'm I'm someone who really loves to c
speaker-0: I know you like to think. I know you like to think.
speaker-1: I will try and play the game for you because I love it
speaker-0: Let's play the game. Let's play that. I love you too. And I think, you know, like I if it wasn't obvious to everybody listening already, your answers are very evidenced informed, very credible, and very carefully considered. I think you've just got to perhaps have that confidence in yourself that the first thing that you say is based on all of that. No, no, no. I know you're not missing confidence. What I'm saying is that trust that what you're saying all comes together. All right. So fueling growth, what has most shifted your understanding of this work? A book research, a moment in a workshop, the people listening today can also learn from.
speaker-1: me, it was moving beyond words into action myself. So I was sitting at home in tears about yet another woman who'd been murdered. And I saw in our local paper that there was a call for the community to come together and help found a shelter. I went to that meeting, I've heard the CEO of Women's Community Shelters, Annabelle Daniels, speak about the need in Castle Hill, near where I live in Sydney. And I put my hand up and said I would join. So I helped start a shelter in my local area called the Sanctuary. It's now been open for 10 years. That was life-changing, life-saving. ⁓ in many ways, of course, it was great work for others, but in many ways, my gosh, yes, it helped me. it helped me heal a lot of what I experienced. ⁓ and it made me see firsthand that we can all make a concrete difference in our communities and do something that ⁓ moves beyond token
gestures.
speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. The kind of byline of fueling growth is being a work in progress on purpose. And it sounds like that action actually allowed you to do that, that evol evolution. So when it comes to igniting courage, you ask girls to speak up in environments that often have trained them to stay quiet, whether that be at home or at school. What does courageous courageous action look like for a girl in that environment?
speaker-1: I I think we shouldn't assume that a girl who stays quiet isn't being courageous. Her silence might actually be very self-protective. It might be really important for her. One of the things that we know as girls and women that we do when we experience trauma is not always fight or flight. It can be to freeze, to be quiet, to lock down, and that can be protective. And I would I would probably ask her not to feel any shame about that, that it's a process and there's no rush. And that often we are our own best guides about when is the time to speak up. And I wouldn't push that that had to be done in a particular time frame or in a particular way. and I would respect her her need to hold mm to hold her secrets, to hold her story until she's ready. But I would encourage And show her how that could be told and I would show others how that could be received.
speaker-0: I really love that because what you've picked up there and, you know, called out is that courage isn't always loud. You know, we're trained in many ways to think that coura courageous action is being the loudest or being the most out there or, you know, the one that's prepared to speak up on things, but actually courage can be quiet. And it it I think it's that quote that says, you know, courage is that little voice that tells you to try again tomorrow. that's beautiful. You know, yeah. That's really, really, a really important point. Okay, the next one is reframe relationships. So what's the one reframe a girl or a woman needs to make about what she deserves in a relationship today?
speaker-1: That she deserves to feel safe and secure and understood. And that a healthy relationship feels more like ug boots and spiky stilettos. You know, I think sometimes we have been trained to see difficult, prickly relationships as perhaps passionate or admirable, but they are exhausting ⁓ and often they aren't relationships that can be healthily sustained. So I think I would ask them to reframe what they deserve and what kind of relationship they want to be in.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And what does the day to day look like, not just the special highlight real moments? That's what comes to mind when you say the ⁓ the Ug Boots. Ask any woman over twenty five or thirty what she wants in a relationship. It's takeaway Netflix and chill in her Ug Boots.
speaker-1: And sometimes when I see people say things like, you know, they'll post on socials that, I think they think it sounds romantic, but they'll say things like our relationship, there's been so many highs
and so many lows and I think, ⁓ your relationship sounds exhausting.
speaker-0: Yeah, it does. It sounds challenging.
speaker-1: Yeah, I I don't know that it's meant to feel like that. Maybe we need to throw some of those scripts away.
speaker-0: Yeah, I love that. That's the essence of today's conversation for sure. Now we've talked about shaping the status quo quite a lot. What's the one norm or belief that you're most committed to dismantling and what would replace it? I think
speaker-1: belief that boys' emotional struggles excuse harm, right? ⁓ there we we seem to have gone down a bit of a rabbit hole at the moment where we're assuming that all perpetrators of abuse do so because they are hurt, they're sad, they're lonely. That's not always the case. The research makes it really clear that sometimes perpetrators of abuse do so because it gives them power, because it feels good for them. It gets them what they want, right? So I think we need to be really nuanced on this conversation and not turn it into somehow the boys are the victims here. Yeah. That men, that perpetrators are the victims. Some of them may have had victim experiences. ⁓ they can take accountability for that. They can be supported, but it doesn't excuse how they treat others.
speaker-0: I love that. And also to add that it's not a girl's or a woman's responsibility to fix that problem, you know.
speaker-1: Amen. No, She is you're not your rehab. She is not your rehab. She's not your therapist. She's not your punching bag. Yeah. Sort your own stuff out.
speaker-0: I love it. I love it. Okay, our final one is around telling your story. And the essence of this is the true understanding that what we make visible shapes what others believe is possible. And so in that vein, what is the conversation that girls and of course the women who were those girls one, you know, years ago? What's the conversation that they should be having more openly today?
speaker-1: think we do talk a lot about physical violence, as you said before, but we also need to talk a lot more about that slow erosion of self trust that many of us experience. And those sisterhood conversations can be so important and powerful. You know, I I called someone out the other day because they were talking about the fact that, you know, they didn't like whispered conversations in hallways or they didn't like ⁓ Girls might be sitting around and gossiping. And then a lot of that can be really protective. Yeah. Right. In so many environments, women share their experiences in a quieter, ⁓ more ⁓ private way to test out those experiences and to warn each other. Yeah. And I think it's really important that we do continue to have conversations and they don't have to all be public like this on a podcast. They can be quieter, they can be more intimate. We shouldn't dismiss the value of those conversations. Throughout history, women have always used words, right? We are she who shall not be shushed. So let us continue to use our words to build safety and to create safety for not just for ourselves, but for our sisters as well.
speaker-0: I love that. She who shall not be shush. My final question, and I think you've just answered it with that, is is always about what being a first mover means to you in in your context. You know, for me, first movers are the people who actively shape the environments that they're in and understand that in order for our world to progress, to be realized in terms of a better future, someone has to be the first to go first. Danny, what does the first move mover mean to you, even if you were gonna say exactly what I think you're gonna say?
speaker-1: Well I don't know, what do you think I'm gonna say? That would be interesting. I
speaker-0: We need more women who are she who shall not be shushed, you know, the speaking out to being the one to articulate and say the thing that everybody knows is going on and that needs to be said so that other people feel seen, feel validated, feel safe in many of those ways.
speaker-1: And I think for me it's the you don't have to get things perfect, right? But you have to have a crack. Like, did I think in helping to open one shelter in my local neighborhood that that was going to solve the domestic violence crisis in Australia? No, I did not. But I do remember actually at that very night putting my hand up and saying, I'll help open it, but I also want to help. close it. And by that I want to embed right from the beginning education and I want to encourage our local schools to adopt this shelter alongside us because I reckon that could be transformative. So I think doing things that are a bit creative and interesting and not being afraid to have a go at that is really important. But also ⁓ understanding that you don't have to get it right. Like you you you can evolve and and modify and and change as you go along. I don't know, we always feel pressured to be perfect. And the truth of it is that some of that pressure to be perfect is not all self-inflicted. Like the world can be pretty critical and damning and have us under a bit of a spotlight. But I don't think we can let that or I don't think we should let ourselves shrink too much because of that.
speaker-0: What a beautiful way to wrap up such an incredible conversation. Danielle Miller, thank you so much for joining us today.
speaker-1: Thanks, yes.
speaker-0: If you love today's episode, do me a quick favor. Hit that like button, subscribe so you never miss an episode, and share this with one person you think needs to hear it. It just takes five seconds and it genuinely helps this show grow. And I'd love to hear from you. Is there someone you think I absolutely must have on the podcast? If so, drop their name in the comments below. I read every single one and some of my best guests, well, they've come straight from the source. Thanks for being here and for being a first mover. I'll see you on the next one.