Volledige transcriptie van The Denver Docket: Finding your stride, with Joyce Williams

getting him in the right place. 00:04:13.490 --> 00:04:17.290 You know, building your canter, getting to the right consistent rhythm so that 00:04:17.290 --> 00:04:19.750 the jumps just sort of show up naturally and becomes easy. 00:04:19.930 --> 00:04:24.950 And then also a lot of it is just staying out of his way and not overcorrecting 00:04:24.950 --> 00:04:27.050 him and, you know, being too nitpicky. 00:04:28.230 --> 00:04:31.350 Adam: How long have you had your current horse? Joyce: Almost five years. 00:04:31.550 --> 00:04:35.690 It was a, you know, people got pandemic puppies. I got a pandemic pony, is what I like to say. 00:04:36.770 --> 00:04:41.670 Adam: What's that horse? Joyce: He's off the track thoroughbred. So he raced until he 00:04:41.670 --> 00:04:43.430 was three. He was not very successful. 00:04:44.170 --> 00:04:46.690 Came off the track as a three-year-old, and I've had him ever since. 00:04:46.850 --> 00:04:52.030 I mean, his dad did win the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness and second in the Belmont. 00:04:52.090 --> 00:04:56.430 So he had the right breeding for it, but it just did not translate for him. Adam: What's his name? 00:04:57.170 --> 00:05:00.190 Joyce: Dude, and then his show name now is Dude Diligence. 00:05:01.170 --> 00:05:05.630 Adam: All right. And I take it people connect the dots fairly quickly between that 00:05:05.630 --> 00:05:07.410 and your professional ties. 00:05:07.870 --> 00:05:11.350 Joyce: They do. It's funny, I've been at shows where people are like, are you a lawyer? 00:05:11.890 --> 00:05:15.870 It's usually other lawyers that realize it and they definitely appreciate the pun. 00:05:17.030 --> 00:05:23.070 Adam: And then, you know, flipping to how you prepare for trials, what are some of 00:05:23.070 --> 00:05:26.090 the things you've learned or sort of the practices you do, obviously, 00:05:26.150 --> 00:05:30.890 on the equestrian side that you translate when you're preparing for trials and actually doing trials. 00:05:32.213 --> 00:05:35.333 Joyce: Sure. I mean, it's kind of a lot similar to a lot of, you know, 00:05:35.613 --> 00:05:39.673 training or, you know, back work that goes into it that people don't necessarily see or appreciate. 00:05:39.853 --> 00:05:41.713 You know, when you're on a horse show, people are just like, 00:05:41.773 --> 00:05:44.173 oh, it looks like it's going great for them, but they don't realize like how 00:05:44.173 --> 00:05:47.493 much work has gone into it to get to that point. 00:05:47.693 --> 00:05:49.613 And I think the same goes for trials. 00:05:49.853 --> 00:05:52.653 You know, all of the different things that we do to really understand the whole 00:05:52.653 --> 00:05:56.993 case, not just on our side, but I mean, the best litigators are going to know 00:05:56.993 --> 00:06:00.073 the case on the other side as well. So you know what to expect, 00:06:00.233 --> 00:06:02.493 what to counter, and what to argue against. 00:06:02.733 --> 00:06:07.533 So

it's really the whole training and the process and building and seeing the 00:06:07.533 --> 00:06:11.713 case from all angles and the horse ring, seeing everything from all angles and 00:06:11.713 --> 00:06:14.273 what could happen and anticipating that and being ready for it. 00:06:14.633 --> 00:06:17.533 And then if anything comes up, you're not concerned. 00:06:18.293 --> 00:06:21.553 You know, been at horse shows before, like weather can change and you got to 00:06:21.553 --> 00:06:24.993 be ready for something to happen or, you know, your horse isn't feeling quite 00:06:24.993 --> 00:06:26.433 right. What are you going to do about it? 00:06:26.913 --> 00:06:30.233 Same thing goes for trial. You need to be ready for anything because you never 00:06:30.233 --> 00:06:35.793 really know what exactly is going to come up and just be ready to react and 00:06:35.793 --> 00:06:39.393 react in a way that's not, you know, a freak out, but it's a calm reaction. 00:06:39.733 --> 00:06:42.053 And it seems like you anticipated it all along. 00:06:43.213 --> 00:06:44.813 Adam: Do you get nervous when you go to trial? 00:06:46.392 --> 00:06:49.952 Joyce: I mean, yeah, I think everyone should be a little bit nervous because that means you care. 00:06:50.492 --> 00:06:54.372 I mean, I think now that I've probably been to, I mean, four trials within the 00:06:54.372 --> 00:06:58.372 last year, you know, it's not as nerve wracking as it used to be. 00:06:58.492 --> 00:07:02.612 But I think that, you know, every good litigator probably does get a little 00:07:02.612 --> 00:07:05.132 bit nervous because that means you care and you're, you know, 00:07:05.312 --> 00:07:06.192 putting your all into it. 00:07:07.932 --> 00:07:14.212 Adam: When it comes to parachuting into a case that you've not necessarily started 00:07:14.212 --> 00:07:15.812 the case, but you got called into. 00:07:16.312 --> 00:07:20.852 What are some of the things you do early on to get your grasp on the case, 00:07:21.012 --> 00:07:23.412 knowing that you're not going to have perfect information? 00:07:23.632 --> 00:07:26.192 You didn't start the case, but you've now inherited it. 00:07:26.992 --> 00:07:31.892 What do you do in that context to learn in a way that's going to be beneficial 00:07:31.892 --> 00:07:34.872 and also put you in a position to take control of the case? 00:07:36.132 --> 00:07:39.632 Joyce: I mean, it's difficult to jump in, and it kind of always depends, 00:07:39.832 --> 00:07:41.572 too, on what part you're jumping in. 00:07:41.652 --> 00:07:44.612 I mean, Are you jumping in a month before trial when discovery is closed or 00:07:44.612 --> 00:07:47.092 are you jumping in, you know, kind of in the beginning of discovery? 00:07:47.912 --> 00:07:49.412 So it is kind of, you know. 00:07:50.803 --> 00:07:53.383 A whirlwind trying to get yourself up to speed. And obviously, 00:07:53.483 --> 00:07:56.443 you can't learn everything in such a short amount of time. 00:07:56.603 -->

00:08:00.923 So it's really trying to pinpoint what is the most important things to figure out. 00:08:01.243 --> 00:08:04.403 If there's been depositions of the main parties, that would be a good thing 00:08:04.403 --> 00:08:06.023 to start with reading and understanding 00:08:06.023 --> 00:08:09.783 what people are saying about the different aspects of the case. 00:08:10.003 --> 00:08:12.523 Also, just understanding what are the claims, what are the defenses, 00:08:12.963 --> 00:08:15.023 and how are we actually going to tackle this thing? 00:08:15.183 --> 00:08:18.163 What has been done to date? What still needs to be done. 00:08:18.603 --> 00:08:25.703 I mean, it's, I really enjoy doing that, but it's not always easy to get yourself 00:08:25.703 --> 00:08:29.523 up to speed, again, really depending on what part of the case that you're coming into. 00:08:30.123 --> 00:08:33.483 So I think just doing a deep dive, getting as much information as you can, 00:08:33.683 --> 00:08:37.603 and really importantly to talking to your client and just understanding the 00:08:37.603 --> 00:08:41.323 case from their perspective and what their goals are and, you know, 00:08:41.363 --> 00:08:42.363 what has happened so far. 00:08:43.303 --> 00:08:47.923 Adam: When you get to that next phase, you're heading towards trial and you've got 00:08:47.923 --> 00:08:50.283 to do witness prep for trial itself. 00:08:50.723 --> 00:08:55.143 How do you approach witness prep knowing that whether they're skilled or unskilled 00:08:55.143 --> 00:08:57.883 witnesses, it's going to be a challenging environment? 00:08:59.346 --> 00:09:03.266 Joyce: It's kind of getting to know the personality of your client to the best of your ability. 00:09:03.866 --> 00:09:07.206 If it's a parachuting in, you're not going to know them as well as maybe if 00:09:07.206 --> 00:09:09.526 you've worked with them for a year building up this case. 00:09:09.746 --> 00:09:16.306 But understanding their personality and what might be difficult for them at trial. 00:09:16.946 --> 00:09:21.426 You know, some witnesses, you know, they're just kind of nervous talkers and they just keep talking. 00:09:21.626 --> 00:09:25.266 So kind of working with them on, nope, just answer only the question that's asked. 00:09:25.486 --> 00:09:29.926 Some can be a little, you know, it can be a very emotional case and trying to 00:09:29.926 --> 00:09:31.706 keep their emotions calm too. 00:09:31.946 --> 00:09:34.266 So they don't, you know, come across in a way that, you know, 00:09:34.326 --> 00:09:35.466 might not be perceived well. 00:09:35.846 --> 00:09:41.346 So it's really kind of understanding their personality and what they need in 00:09:41.346 --> 00:09:42.846 order to prepare for this. 00:09:43.006 --> 00:09:46.006 And some witnesses, more prep is maybe not the best thing for them. 00:09:47.026 --> 00:09:50.126 You know, that can be kind of over-prepared and it can be kind of over, 00:09:50.706 --> 00:09:52.166 it kind of seems like a script. 00:09:52.446 --> 00:09:56.086 And that's not always good because it doesn't come off natural or credible. 00:09:56.546 --> 00:10:00.106 So it's really just trying to figure out what that individual needs in order 00:10:00.106 --> 00:10:01.206 to do their best at trial. 00:10:02.106 --> 00:10:05.266 Adam: You know, it's interesting. I think there's are, especially if there's an emotional 00:10:05.266 --> 00:10:09.206 aspect of the trial or there's going to be an emotional part of the testimony. 00:10:09.606 --> 00:10:13.406 I agree with you. If you rehearse it too many times, you run the risk that it's 00:10:13.406 --> 00:10:18.286 just going to come off as manufactured and it's just not going to land to the same level. 00:10:18.506 --> 00:10:23.006 I think that's the art of the trial lawyers coming up with what things to emphasize 00:10:23.006 --> 00:10:29.306 versus what things needed to just be raw in the moment, it feels like. Joyce: Definitely. 00:10:30.126 --> 00:10:33.766 Adam: So switching to trials, you mentioned you've done four in the last year. 00:10:34.306 --> 00:10:38.006 I believe you've done several openings for those trials as well. Is that right? 00:10:38.606 --> 00:10:40.426 Joyce: Yes, I did all of the openings. 00:10:41.746 --> 00:10:46.726 Adam: Walk me through how you approach openings and how you take them from good to great. 00:10:49.102 --> 00:10:53.782 Joyce: I think for most cases, a long opening kind of doesn't land as well. 00:10:54.202 --> 00:10:59.242 You want it to be enough that the jury or the judge, whoever the decider is, 00:10:59.282 --> 00:11:02.002 is getting enough information they need to get a preview. 00:11:02.362 --> 00:11:06.182 But going into every detail, the problem with opening too is you can anticipate 00:11:06.182 --> 00:11:08.442 what's going to happen and that's what you're trying to lay out. 00:11:08.582 --> 00:11:12.222 But it might not actually lay out like that. So it's good to give a preview. 00:11:12.462 --> 00:11:15.502 So I think starting with that being somewhat punchy. 00:11:16.522 --> 00:11:19.722 But as far as laying it out, you know, coming up with some sort of consistent 00:11:19.722 --> 00:11:22.762 theme, which can carry through the entire case. 00:11:23.002 --> 00:11:27.202 So obviously, you know, working with your colleagues and clients and to make 00:11:27.202 --> 00:11:30.902 sure that that theme can play out throughout the entire case and that it makes sense. 00:11:31.522 --> 00:11:35.002 So coming up with that theme and kind of emphasizing a little bit throughout 00:11:35.002 --> 00:11:37.022 opening so that it makes sense. 00:11:37.142 --> 00:11:40.402 And it's something that, you know, again, the fact fighter, jury, 00:11:40.582 --> 00:11:45.202 judge can kind of latch on to and kind of anticipate and prepare for moving forward. 00:11:45.842 --> 00:11:50.102 I think visuals, too, can also be very helpful in openings. 00:11:50.422 -->

00:11:55.362 So at least for three of those four trials in the openings, we had visuals. 00:11:55.682 --> 00:11:59.622 And I do think that that helps. Usually not very detailed ones, 00:11:59.722 --> 00:12:03.522 but again, enough to just have this kind of idea in the back of the fact finder's 00:12:03.522 --> 00:12:06.242 mind of, oh, we might anticipate this kind of thing coming. 00:12:07.062 --> 00:12:11.622 And that just sort of sets the stage. So that's at least somewhat how I approach it. 00:12:11.982 --> 00:12:16.342 And then making it good is presenting it like several times to different people. 00:12:16.702 --> 00:12:19.682 And especially, I think it's great to do it too with lawyers that don't know 00:12:19.682 --> 00:12:23.722 the case. You know, other colleagues at the firm who might be litigators that don't know the case. 00:12:24.102 --> 00:12:27.122 So if I present it and it makes sense to them, I'm like, okay, 00:12:27.222 --> 00:12:30.522 and that hopefully will make sense to a fact finder who does not know this case. 00:12:31.042 --> 00:12:34.582 But if it doesn't make sense to them, then I can kind of help develop and build 00:12:34.582 --> 00:12:37.662 that. And I think that's the best way to make an opening go from, 00:12:37.662 --> 00:12:39.962 you know, decent to much better. 00:12:41.495 --> 00:12:47.435 Adam: Back to the visuals and catchphrases. Obviously, the one case we tried a bit 00:12:47.435 --> 00:12:52.355 ago and also we successfully won on the defense side, the key message there 00:12:52.355 --> 00:12:55.155 was pulling on the catchphrase, where's the beef? 00:12:55.475 --> 00:12:59.455 With the idea being that there just is no evidence in this case. 00:12:59.575 --> 00:13:01.835 It couldn't prove the case, things like that. 00:13:02.635 --> 00:13:05.935 Upside is you remember that theme right from the jump. 00:13:06.175 --> 00:13:09.615 It sticks, especially with a judge that's from the vintage that would understand 00:13:09.615 --> 00:13:11.535 what that commercial meant in the very beginning. 00:13:12.175 --> 00:13:16.715 But you also could lose a lot of capital with the judge if they don't buy it. 00:13:16.895 --> 00:13:21.355 So if you're going to take an aggressive theme, what is your thought process for 00:13:21.355 --> 00:13:25.155 understanding when that theme plays or when you have to abandon it? 00:13:25.275 --> 00:13:30.015 Because it's just, it's too strong or may not be strong enough in those circumstances. 00:13:31.375 --> 00:13:34.675 Joyce: I mean, I think it's, you know, how much do you believe in that case? 00:13:34.835 --> 00:13:39.315 I mean, I think that that particular case, we were pretty confident going into trial. 00:13:39.455 --> 00:13:41.475 I mean, sometimes you go into trial thinking, well, this is, 00:13:41.575 --> 00:13:43.875 you know, somewhat of a toss up. We'll see how this goes. 00:13:44.135 --> 00:13:47.495 And, you know, often, I mean, like, I always believe in the case that we're 00:13:47.495 --> 00:13:50.395 presenting, but sometimes you believe in it even stronger, because you just 00:13:50.395 --> 00:13:52.895 know that there's so many holes in the other side's argument. 00:13:52.895 --> 00:13:57.555 So I think it's, you know, knowing your case and how strong you believe it and 00:13:57.555 --> 00:14:02.435 how you see the facts playing out and then presenting that strong-wanted opening, I think, can work. 00:14:02.835 --> 00:14:06.215 But if the case is a little bit more, you know, there's more disputes, 00:14:06.435 --> 00:14:10.015 there's more issues, there's more gray area, then maybe you don't want to, 00:14:10.055 --> 00:14:14.055 like, come out with something so strong because if you can't live through with 00:14:14.055 --> 00:14:15.295 that and the judge isn't buying it, 00:14:15.875 --> 00:14:19.495 you know, again, you're going to lose your capital and it's not going to come across as well. 00:14:20.235 --> 00:14:24.015 Adam: But heading into trial, knowing that, especially on the defense side, 00:14:24.235 --> 00:14:27.275 when you're faced with multiple claims, 00:14:27.555 --> 00:14:31.835 partway through trial or partway through the case, what's your approach with 00:14:31.835 --> 00:14:35.995 what claims you go after at summary judgment, which claims you save for trial, 00:14:36.215 --> 00:14:38.195 especially on the defense side, knowing, again, 00:14:38.455 --> 00:14:41.855 that if you use too much capital too early, you may not have enough, 00:14:41.935 --> 00:14:43.475 whatever you need at the very end. Yeah. 00:14:44.736 --> 00:14:47.876 Joyce: So I think there's often a strategy with sometimes with defendants where they're 00:14:47.876 --> 00:14:53.216 just going to go for summary judgment on the entire case, every claim in it, which can work. 00:14:53.576 --> 00:14:56.656 It's not like it never works, but I do think that you have to really carefully 00:14:56.656 --> 00:15:01.756 consider each claim and not risk losing some sort of credibility by arguing 00:15:01.756 --> 00:15:03.776 a claim where maybe that one's not as good. 00:15:04.376 --> 00:15:10.236 You know, I'd rather present a summary judgment motion where it's just an easy question for the judge. 00:15:10.236 --> 00:15:13.836 You know, that claim, of course, that claim doesn't work, rather than the ones 00:15:13.836 --> 00:15:17.116 that are a little more iffy or especially ones where you're like, 00:15:17.196 --> 00:15:19.656 this is not the best argument, but I want to go for all of them. 00:15:19.776 --> 00:15:25.956 So I think it's being very selective in which claims that you go after so that 00:15:25.956 --> 00:15:28.576 hopefully you can get the judge to grant. 00:15:28.776 --> 00:15:31.156 And if you can go after all of them, by all means, you should. 00:15:31.316 --> 00:15:34.676 But I do think that, you know, litigators should be a little more cognizant 00:15:34.676 --> 00:15:38.016 of which ones they're going after

so that you don't lose credibility with the judge. 00:15:38.016 --> 00:15:41.676 I mean, I think the best way to go is if you can just get a little bit whittled 00:15:41.676 --> 00:15:45.776 out every time, that means the judge is totally buying everything that you're doing. 00:15:46.076 --> 00:15:49.256 And then by the time you get to trial, if there's only one or two claims left, 00:15:49.476 --> 00:15:53.936 then hopefully, especially if it's bench trial, that can go your way as well. 00:15:55.216 --> 00:15:59.036 Adam: You mentioned the trial when you had the complete defense verdict last year. 00:15:59.976 --> 00:16:04.616 Moving forward to your bookend case that I think you've just recently resolved 00:16:04.616 --> 00:16:07.856 and tried, how did that case turn out? 00:16:08.996 --> 00:16:14.236 So just recently, we had another complete defense verdict in a somewhat similar case. 00:16:15.396 --> 00:16:19.576 As far as takeaways, what were some of the things you did differently, 00:16:19.896 --> 00:16:23.416 things you refined for that approach that you're able to build on from some 00:16:23.416 --> 00:16:24.216 of the earlier victories? 00:16:25.760 --> 00:16:30.480 Joyce: So I do think that the more recent one was a little more difficult of a case, 00:16:30.760 --> 00:16:35.060 a little more questions about, you know, how to prove this and, 00:16:35.180 --> 00:16:37.560 you know, whether plaintiff really did have a valid claim. 00:16:38.900 --> 00:16:45.200 So it was more difficult in that way to build, but I think just also still same 00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:49.420 way, kind of picking and choosing the claims to go after and at what point. 00:16:50.060 --> 00:16:54.740 In that earlier case, I think there were maybe 14 claims to begin with, 00:16:54.740 --> 00:16:56.660 and we did do a motion to dismiss and 00:16:56.660 --> 00:17:00.080 got about at least half of them were dismissed and a motion to dismiss. 00:17:00.560 --> 00:17:05.520 Summary judgment, there were, what, six or something left, went after a little bit at a time. 00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:10.920 This new case, the claims were a little bit better played, a little stronger 00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:14.620 in the beginning, so we did not go for a motion to dismiss, which I think did 00:17:14.620 --> 00:17:17.920 make sense because, again, this losing credibility with a judge along the way 00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:20.620 is not something that— used to try not to do. 00:17:21.040 --> 00:17:24.240 But we did then move for summary judgment, got about half of the claims kicked 00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:26.560 out at summary judgment, and then went on to trial. 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:30.600 So I think, you know, kind of building off the same, you know, 00:17:30.820 --> 00:17:33.980 strategy as before into this case really worked well. 00:17:34.140 --> 00:17:38.360 But this case also being a little bit, you know, just stronger from the outset 00:17:38.360 --> 00:17:39.360 on the plaintiff's side. 00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:44.760 So knowing that and also, you know, these were the same attorneys, 00:17:45.060 --> 00:17:46.520 same plaintiff, essentially on the their side. 00:17:46.700 --> 00:17:52.700 So kind of already knowing how they handle their case, how they build the case, 00:17:52.740 --> 00:17:56.760 and knowing how to counteract that, it did make it easier the second time around 00:17:56.760 --> 00:17:57.680 because you know what to expect. 00:17:59.020 --> 00:18:03.960 Adam: For purposes of trial presentation, I think a lot of people overlook the use 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:07.060 of Rule 1006 exhibits, especially in my mind. 00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:10.120 You can get admitted for the truth. It's not just a mere demonstrative. 00:18:10.760 --> 00:18:14.760 Oftentimes, especially in our complex corporate case, and they really synthesize information. 00:18:15.660 --> 00:18:18.900 What's your take on Rural 1000 exhibits? How do you use them? 00:18:19.100 --> 00:18:21.240 And how do you incorporate them into your trial work? 00:18:22.978 --> 00:18:26.698 Joyce: Yeah, I agree. I may think they're underutilized, but they are such a useful 00:18:26.698 --> 00:18:32.838 tool, especially, I think, really in a lot of ways that we use them are for, 00:18:32.838 --> 00:18:34.938 you know, large amounts of financial information. 00:18:35.298 --> 00:18:38.538 Say you have bank records going back like years and years and years. 00:18:39.078 --> 00:18:42.478 All the bank records are important, but rather than trying to admit, 00:18:42.678 --> 00:18:47.618 you know, 20 different documents of bank records, why not synthesize the information 00:18:47.618 --> 00:18:51.058 in a Rule 1006 and then get that admitted? 00:18:51.058 --> 00:18:53.558 And then that's an easier way for the judge to look at, you know, 00:18:53.698 --> 00:18:57.638 one or two pages rather than thousands and get the same information out of it. 00:18:58.658 --> 00:19:02.618 You know, judges are busy. You don't want to give them thousands and thousands 00:19:02.618 --> 00:19:05.278 of documents to review if they're trying to put together findings, 00:19:05.378 --> 00:19:06.278 fact, conclusions, and blah. 00:19:06.558 --> 00:19:10.858 So if you can do that in an easier way for them to still get all that information, 00:19:10.858 --> 00:19:12.478 I think that can be very helpful. 00:19:13.018 --> 00:19:15.778 And it's also a lot easier to work with witnesses when you're talking through 00:19:15.778 --> 00:19:18.878 that information. If you're trying to present every single accident and go through 00:19:18.878 --> 00:19:20.378 each one, it just gets old. 00:19:21.198 --> 00:19:24.918 You know, the witness gets kind of tired of it. The fact finder gets tired of 00:19:24.918 --> 00:19:26.078 it, whether it's judge or jury. 00:19:26.258 --> 00:19:29.878 So having in this kind of easier way, then you can go through it much more quickly. 00:19:29.878 --> 00:19:33.998 And it has a lot

more impact than all of thousands of documents. 00:19:35.198 --> 00:19:39.618 Adam: I also understand you made partner about the last year. Is that right? Joyce: I did. Yes. 00:19:40.778 --> 00:19:45.798 Adam: Congratulations, first of all. Joyce: Thank you. Adam: Now, as far as your path to partner, 00:19:46.038 --> 00:19:49.318 at some point, it seems like everyone has to make that choice of, 00:19:49.398 --> 00:19:52.958 you know, they're going to go all in and they're going to take the steps necessary. 00:19:53.218 --> 00:19:58.438 You know, for you, can you point back to a period of time or sort of what caused 00:19:58.438 --> 00:20:02.078 you to decide to go down that path and fully commit to the process? 00:20:04.128 --> 00:20:07.308 Joyce: I guess it's kind of hard to think about when exactly that happened, 00:20:07.308 --> 00:20:12.868 but I do think that it was a few years ago, before I joined the firm previous 00:20:12.868 --> 00:20:15.968 to Reed Smith, that, you know, I knew this was kind of an area, 00:20:16.128 --> 00:20:17.528 a path that I wanted to go down. 00:20:18.488 --> 00:20:21.628 And I didn't think I was at the right firm to make partner. 00:20:21.808 --> 00:20:25.608 So it was kind of finding the right group that would, you know, 00:20:25.708 --> 00:20:28.848 support me and help me to elevate to that next position. 00:20:28.848 --> 00:20:32.048 So I think that's an important thing for associates to, you know, 00:20:32.128 --> 00:20:35.948 kind of look around and see, you know, who's around you and who can kind of 00:20:35.948 --> 00:20:40.068 be your, you know, your champion to help bring you up to the next level and 00:20:40.068 --> 00:20:41.208 being in the right position too. 00:20:41.208 --> 00:20:45.848 I mean, if you're one of, you know, 10 senior associates and you know there's 00:20:45.848 --> 00:20:48.948 not really room for everyone up top, that can be a challenge. 00:20:49.148 --> 00:20:52.228 So I think kind of considering what's around you and, you know, 00:20:52.288 --> 00:20:56.828 maybe what your book looks like, what kind of, you know, the book of the other 00:20:56.828 --> 00:20:59.728 people around you looks like to not just the other litigators, 00:20:59.888 --> 00:21:03.488 but what, you know, what kind of work are the corporate group bringing in that 00:21:03.488 --> 00:21:04.828 you might be able to help work on? 00:21:04.828 --> 00:21:09.068 I mean, litigation is finicky in the sense that, you know, we're not just chasing 00:21:09.068 --> 00:21:13.228 people around being like, oh, did you get sued? I mean, we're not the ambulance chasing type. 00:21:13.408 --> 00:21:17.788 So, it's more, you know, it's harder to kind of sell what we do. 00:21:18.868 --> 00:21:23.608 So, I think being in the right environment is really the best step to get yourself 00:21:23.608 --> 00:21:26.188 set up if you want to go to the next step to make partner. 00:21:27.308 --> 00:21:30.268 Adam: I see what you're saying. I definitely agree over the years looking at it. 00:21:30.748 --> 00:21:34.508 We're probabilistic, I think, on how we approach the business development piece, 00:21:34.528 --> 00:21:36.988 which you have to have a lot of lines out there. 00:21:37.208 --> 00:21:41.168 And when matters happen, they have a lot of longevity, but at the same time, 00:21:41.288 --> 00:21:44.768 you have to sort of forecast for how you can create that pipeline. 00:21:45.008 --> 00:21:49.388 So I do agree, I think, for an associate training partner, it's looking at pipeline 00:21:49.388 --> 00:21:51.748 and making sure that you can get into a bigger pipeline. 00:21:52.248 --> 00:21:55.488 And it certainly is going to increase your chances from start to finish. 00:21:56.584 --> 00:22:00.764 Joyce: Definitely. Adam: All right. Well, that is our time for today. So I really appreciate 00:22:00.764 --> 00:22:04.644 you joining the pod and we'll certainly have you back on again and to hear your 00:22:04.644 --> 00:22:07.624 next trial win, which sounds like it probably won't be that far away based off 00:22:07.624 --> 00:22:09.104 of the string you've put together so far. 00:22:09.864 --> 00:22:12.204 Joyce: Let's hope so. Well, thanks for having me. 00:22:13.004 --> 00:22:14.144 Outro: Disputes in Perspective is 00:22:14.144 --> 00:22:17.704 a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. 00:22:18.344 --> 00:22:22.224 For more information about Reed Smith's litigation and dispute resolution practice, 00:22:22.624 --> 00:22:25.584 please email disputesinperspective@reedsmith.com. 00:22:26.584 --> 00:22:30.404 You can find our podcast on podcast streaming platforms, reedsmith.com, 00:22:30.524 --> 00:22:33.284 and our social media accounts at Reed Smith LLP. 00:22:34.744 --> 00:22:38.944 Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal 00:22:38.944 --> 00:22:42.244 advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, 00:22:42.244 --> 00:22:46.384 nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular 00:22:46.384 --> 00:22:48.084 lawyers in any given situation. 00:22:48.604 --> 00:22:52.264 Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. 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