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One day your kid is little, the next it seems
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they're taller, their voice may have changed, and everyone around
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them is suddenly a friend, whether that's actually true or not.
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Middle school and puberty hit fast, but the build up
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starts long before we notice it. And if we're not
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honest with our neurodivergent kids about what's really happening in
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their relationships, we can leave them dangerously unprepared for it.
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I'm talking with doctor Kim Pinkney, instructional designer, special ed advocate,
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and mom of a neurodivergent son, about the early signs
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to watch for, the language that quietly sets kids up
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to get hurt, and how to help them find their
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real people, their true friends. I'm Penny Williams, and this
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is beautifully complex. Welcome everyone. I am thrilled to have
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doctor Kim Pinkney with me here on the podcast to
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talk about middle school and puberty. I feel like I
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have to whisper right right, I go, oh, no, this
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is gonna be tough, right, But and it is, and
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that's why we're here talking about it. So before we
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jump into it, will you just let everybody know who
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you are and what you do.
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I sure, will, and thank you so much for having
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me Penny. You know, I've been a fan of your
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work and even before I got into sort of my
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advocacy work when I was like a struggling parent trying
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to figure out what the heck I needed to do.
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You are such a voice in this space for me
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in a sense like a resource and also just like
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a person like I just I just rescricted you as
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a person because sometimes it can feel lonely. So thank you.
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I'm so glad.
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Yeah, I am a doctor, Kim Pinkney, and I am
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an instructional designer. I'm a performance improvement coach as well
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or consultant and as well as an instructional design and
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are focused on inclusive education and special education advocacy. But
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most importantly, I'm the mom of a nord urgent kiddo
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who has been my biggest inspiration and biggest teacher through
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all of this and really sort of changed the trajectory
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of my professional life and personal life and all of
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those things. So I did start out you know, as
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a I I'm still K through twelve certified as an educator,
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and I was a middle school teacher, and so it's
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one of the reasons why I'm sort of passionate about
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the middle school landscape. And when I entered the middle
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school sort of environment as an educator, it was great
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because I was still young enough to appreciate the budding sarcasm,
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you know, I mean, in some ways, you know, had
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a baby face, and so it was sort of blended
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in they saw me more as certainly the teacher, but
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someone that they could also relate to. I still felt
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like I had my pulse on what was hot, you know,
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with that what they were into. And it was also
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a wild ride. Right when you're teaching middle school. You
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have some kids that come in and their babies, right,
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and some kids that are like grown grown, and it's
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a whole trajectory of hormones and levels of maturity and
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levels of responsibility, levels of really getting into executive function
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and where you're really starting to see some of that
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executive dysfunction show up. And I felt like it was
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a really good primer for me, Like I felt like
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I had it and really understood all the ins and
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outs of what that sort of puberty landscape was. And
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you know, when you're twenty something, you can take that
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with the grain of salt. Right, like they weren't my kids,
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so I'm just I'm helping them, right, I'm supporting them
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and not feeling like emotionally so tied in such a
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super connected heart space way as if it were my
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own kiddo. And then I will tell you that, you know,
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having my own kiddo, who I feel like overnight just
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entered puberty space. It seems like I looked at the hallway
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one day and I was
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like, wait, how are you
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eye level with me? And now you're taller than me?
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And where did that voice come from? That? So it
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just I felt like its knuck up on me, even
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though I knew it was coming and knew all the signs.
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And then having a kiddo of my own in puberty
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was really a wake up call and then gave me
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yet another layer of like how to think about all
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of the things we do and need to do to
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support and advocate for our kids, all the things we
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do and then need to do and maybe shift in
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the public school setting because it doesn't actually happen overnight. Yeah,
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it is a build up. So yeah, that's a little
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bit about me.
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Yeah, how do we identify that build up? Because I
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feel the same as you one day this kid was
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taller than me or was you know, and it does
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it feels like it happens overnight. It really, how do
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we identify where that's starting then? If it isn't overnight.
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Well, I think that there's some just like on a
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like a mom sort of level, there is some of that,
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like clothing, Like let's just take that as an example.
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I feel like there was a certain point in time
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where we kind of leveled out and my son was
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able to stay in the same size. I'm like, oh,
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this is great. But when you start to notice like, oh,
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maybe we're at the edge and we need to go
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up another sized, Like, that's one little indicator that I think.
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I was like, oh, it's just back to school, shopping
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or whatever. But I think that was sort of an
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indicator of like, oh, we're about to hit another gross Burt.
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That's one thing. And then I have a son. So also,
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I will say when he started asking for second dinner,
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I was like, what what do you mean second dinner?
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You know, you should be luck you got the first dinner.
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But those types of things, I think we're clues and
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I was like, oh, but knowing that with that, with
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that growth are also coming these hormonal changes in all
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of these other things. Those are like really sort of
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subtle things, and also the socio emotional aspect. I could
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really notice my son starting to become like he was
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aware of peers and what that looked like before, but
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really started mentioning like, oh, I wonder what those kids
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are doing really and actually starting to question like how
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I'm in this classroom, but why am I not with
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those other kids, and why do I only see them
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during certain times of the day. Curious about other folks
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instead of just like, oh, this is where I am.
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There was a new level of awareness that started to
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come before all of the emotional attachment, right, like so
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a curiosity, and then we got into this space of like, hey,
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like I really want to be with other kids, I'm
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really interested in girls, I'm interested in all these things,
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and sort of the emotions that come around with that.
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We didn't start with the emotions of like oh, I
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kind of want to be with these kids. It was
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more of a curiosity. And I think that was a
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clue that I kind of like missed because I will
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tell you the emotional journey of puberty in terms of
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like really being aware of what your peers think of
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you in a different way to where it like really
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gets you your core and it starts to affect kind
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of how you even see yourself. And then you're starting
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to try and figure out, oh, well, can I try
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and be funny? Should I try on this identity? And like,
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there's a lot that happens in middle school and it's
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all developmentally appropriate. And then also there's this other layer
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of heightened emotions and then heightened sensitivities because if you
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have a kiddo that's noor divergent, they may not be
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picking up on all of the subtle social cues, all
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of the non spoken kind of like body language that's like, hey,
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you're being tolerated right now, you're not being truly accepted,
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or yeah, I'll talk to you in this environment, but
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that doesn't mean that we're like now best friends type
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of a thing.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, And that's one of those things that got me
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thinking about though it may seem like it happens overnight,
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this is a build up like over time. And I
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was even in an IEP meeting, a recent IP meeting
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with my son who he's someone that you know, had
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a goal for a long time introduce yourself, say hi,
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and aren't like, you know, making connections with people when
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he was younger, and that type of a goal seems great.
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You want, you know, someone to be able to introduce themselves,
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say hello, and have like that sort of initial kind
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of banter with someone, like an initial greeting exchange. And
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I remember he had that goal and we were working
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on that for several years. And it's one thing when
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you do that when a kiddo is cute and little.
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It's another thing when that kid's like, oh, I have
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this skill set and now I'm interested in my peers
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in a different way, right, and I'm going to use
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that skill that you've ingrained in me for all of
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these years in elementary school. But then it's different when
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you're in middle school because now he's, you know, five
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eight and a half, you know what I'm saying, looks grown,
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and he's just trying to say hello, but also in
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a nor divergent way, like is approaching it, and like
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it may not come off as like, you know, Joe cool,
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he thinks he is, but like people can tell that
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it's not necessarily the same cool kid type of a vibe.
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It may feel a little different to them, and then
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all of a sudden, that skill that you've worked so
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hard on in society and in like a middle school
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setting can seem like a threat or you know, a
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best seem a little odd, and then it worst seemed
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like a threat. And so, yeah, I remember telling the
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team because my son got very clever on ways to
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figure out like who certain people are. He was using
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the yearbook and then trying to reach out to people,
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and it makes perfect sense that he would want to
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do that, Yeah, but also perfect sense that that would
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be unexpected to those receiving that. Right, there's community's like
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I don't actually know you, how did you figure out
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who I am? Type of a thing. And he said
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to the team, I'm like, you know, he's had a
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goal of introducing himself for several years. And this is
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a kid who is using the tools that he has
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right at his disposal to try and make connections and
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he has every right to make those connections. And I
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don't think we do a good enough job of focusing
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on a goal and then also focusing on the caveats,
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right yeap, Like when you're generalizing, it's like, oh, that's
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generalized in the community, But what about the caveats? What
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about yes, introduce yourself and also recognize when someone's saying, hey,
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I'm not interested, or hey, that was unexpected. And I
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don't think that we do a good job of that,
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which then I feel like, once you get to that
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puberty stage can be a little nerve wracking and a
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little dangerous. So I think we have to do a
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better job of looking at that sort of life cycle
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of things instead of Okay, this is an appropriate elementary goal.
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We're going to do that. Da da da da da
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and kind of let other people worry about the rest.
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I think we have worried about it from the beginning.
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That nuance. We don't put that in goals, And how
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would we really like if a goal was, you know,
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a novel, maybe, but it's not. And so like I
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remember my own son coming in in sixth grade and
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now boys tease each other, it's camaraderie. He would come
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in the door raging mad that they were bullying him,
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that they weren't ass and I was like, oh, I
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think we need to start working on that nonverbal stuff. Yes, right,
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Like it wasn't really a problem, and then it was
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a problem, and I'm so glad we're talking about trying
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to identify earlier and starting to work on that earlier
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before it's a problem.
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That's right, because I do think that even in the
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language that certain providers, whether they be within the school
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or external therapeutic providers, they'll just start addressing like using
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the word friends. M h, well, not everybody use your friend.
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Yeah, I mean, like you know this is your.
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Friend because they're just here, but no, they actually aren't,
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and no one's ever taking the time then until it
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becomes a thing to say, oh, well, there's a difference
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between friends, acquaintances and someone that you just happen to. Like,
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no one is setting right and while they don't and
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I'm not advocating for like, oh, IEPs need to be
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any longer than they already are, because they are long,
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but I do think that, like we should have some
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sub goals around like what happens when you introduce yourself
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and get a certain reaction and how to cope with
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that or at least start to recognize those things and
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even the words that we use, like as therapists, like
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are you calling yourself a friend to your client? In
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the short term, it's about building community and making them
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feel safe and in the long term, though, is that
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setting that particular individual up to think that, oh, anyone
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that's around me is just going to be my friend
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and have my best interest at heart, right, Because it's
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not true. Right, And therapists change over time, you age
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out of things, or they switch a job, and then
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what happens? What is that saying about friendship? I think
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we have to be really clear and intentional about the
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language we use. And so for my son, for
Gavin,
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I'd be like, this is your therapist talking to my
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dad his grandfather the other day, and he's like, Grandpa,
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maybe you should talk about that. What's a therapist like
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using these terms? Because I'm clear with him right about
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what is is and what this relationship is, what it's not.
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So even little things like that, if we can't get
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to the point where we're looking at all the caveats,
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can we at least be clear about our language because
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we shouldn't expect everybody to be friends.
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I'm in a graduate program right now with mostly teachers
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and they call everyone pal or friend, and I thought
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it was so endearing, and now I'm second guessing that.
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I know like I know it seems benign and sweet
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and correct. There's some ambiguity there.
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There is some ambiguity there. And then so think about
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that in a middle school context. If you have, especially
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a nor divergent student who has been in environments where
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a therapists are calling them, you know, friends, where everyone
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all of the students that they're around are friends and
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are expected to be friends. But they're like, but wait,
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I don't actually like so and so, Yeah, do.
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You know what I mean?
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Like, how are they grappling with that and coming to truth?
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I know exactly what you mean.
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And frankly, some of the best lessons you can have
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and learn when you're approaching middle school and in middle
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school is how to be a respectful non friend, right,
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because you're not going to get along with everyone, and
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it's that's by design, and that's okay, but yes, you
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still need to be respectful. And yes, we're not going
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to promote like you know, doing the caddy stuff and
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talking behind people's backs. But if we're it seems just
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disingenuous to have this expectation that everyone's going to be friends,
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and then dangerous for a nor divergent student because then
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they're left to grapple with Okay, but I thought they
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were my friends when I'm not getting like, I'm not
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understanding how they're not talking to.
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Me, you know what?
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Right? I mean? Yeah, I did this post recently about
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my son sort of coming to terms. There was a
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girl that he likes, and they rightfully so beautiful girl,
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lovely person, and she was friendly with him, great, they
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were talking on the phone, great, and it seemed reciprocal,
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and that at a certain point in time it was like,
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let's I could tell that, you know, she was fading
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this back right and would say was not being truthful
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to him and was saying like, oh, you know, I
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got my phone taken away. Sorry, blah blah blah, I
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can't talk. But that wasn't the case because it went
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on for a long time and clearly he was, you know,
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then blocked or what have you. But it's this piece
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around who's then left to give ground truth to these
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students and it fell on me, right, so I am
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having to because I don't want him in a non
300
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reality space that could be very dangerous too, Like I
301
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don't want you living with in a dream world like
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this is someone who, yes, I understand you want so
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desperately for this person to be your friend, And let's
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look at the evidence of the behavior that's not actually
305
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friend like, right. Yeah, if they don't want to talk
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to you outside of school or aren't talking to you
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outside of school, that's not really friend like behavior. So
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maybe this is an acquaintance and it takes a long
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time to get there, like repetition of these little nuggets
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because I'm having to break my son's heart. Yeah, once,
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this relationship so bad, he's deserving of it. But hey,
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you know, haven't we all been in situation where they
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don't want us back, Like it's a life experience. But
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I'm not there to tell him, Hey, but look at
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this
evidence and measure that up against our definitions of
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friendship and what you would expect. Then I have to
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gently break his heart while simultaneously holding space for that heartache. Right.
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But my point of that is, like, we need a
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little bit more of that reality embedded in the landscape,
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because I think when we are calling everybody friends and hey,
321
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pals and hey this and hey, that it sets folks
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up to live in a world that is not based
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in reality and all doesn't give them the tools to
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recognize when someone is not showing up in their life
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in a way that is is honoring their value in
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their inherent humanity. It's inhibiting them for them being a
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self advocate in that way. Is there in a llalla
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land about it? Right? That's the sort of thing that
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I think is one of the most critical things is
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really we have to be honest, be honest in an
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age appropriate way. But like calling yourself the therapist when
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you are the therapist, low hanging fruit. Referring to the
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folks in the class not as everybody's friends but were classmates,
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accurate and also age appropriate, right, I think lends itself
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then for that conversation around friends versus acquaintances.
336
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And there's a point where most of our neurodiversion kids
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start to be able to pick up on that nuance right,
338
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to pick up some of those signals. In sixth grade,
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my son didn't, right I in carpool. I could tell
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that they were trying to blow him off, but he
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was completely oblivious. And for a while I was like,
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thank goodness, he doesn't know. Thank goodness, they're not breaking
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his heart too yep. And then I was like, wait
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a minute, we can't live in a fairyland all the time.
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It's not preparing them for later.
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It's such a.
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Hard thing to accept as a parent that we need
348
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to let our kids struggle, that we need to let
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them feel pain. We don't want that, right, well, we
350
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wants that, and for me, it was really hard to
351
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make that shift and to be able to sit back sometimes.
352
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But it sounds like that's really how we prepare them
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better for real life, in the real world, which is
354
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what we worry about.
355
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There you go, and it is to your point, Penny,
356
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it is devastating. Like I'm telling you about this situation
357
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where I'm having to break this down for my son.
358
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I definitely had to take some time for myself because
359
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it broke my heart too, do you know what I mean?
360
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Like breaks my heart too. And of course there are
361
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those moments where you're like, oh, thank goodness, he's not
362
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picking up on this side I over here or whatever.
363
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But also there will be a time when I'm not here,
364
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you know, And so it's only okay if he's in
365
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La La land, because I'm here and I know that
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it was La La land, so I can sort of
367
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set think, but that's not what this is, right, we
368
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really want it's to be as independent as possible, and
369
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so independence and life itself involves both ups and downs. Unfortunately,
370
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our kido's will experience you know, more sort of negative
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reactions or disciplines and all all of those things. We
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know that to be true. And I think the hardest part,
373
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but our most important sort of task, is to let
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our kiddo's experience the pain that's coming up in their
375
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lives and also showing them that there's someone there that's
376
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holding space for them while they're going through it, yeah, right,
377
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helping them COREGT so that when we aren't there, they
378
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then are able to more able to access their self
379
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regulation tools can't protect my son from you know, heartbreaks
380
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and negative messages he may get from someone else, But
381
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it is my job to make sure that at least
382
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I've done my part and letting him know how special
383
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and unique and how worthy he is, so that he
384
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can recognize when someone is showing up as a friend,
385
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so recognize when someone is treating him well and is
386
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worthy of that, like reciprocal relationship. It is hard. And
387
00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:36.279
the other I sort of mentioned in our little pre
388
00:20:36.359 --> 00:20:38.440
talk is like, you know, all of this is happening
389
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at the same time where I, as a parent, I'm
390
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:43.960
going through my own hormonal changes. Yes, here's a lot
391
00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:46.359
going on, and so I just want to hold space
392
00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:49.480
for those who are like either menopause or menopause while
393
00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:52.160
also having a kiddo in puberty, because it is no
394
00:20:52.359 --> 00:20:55.839
easy feat. There's lots going on. But I also think
395
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that because I am experienced some of those some changes
396
00:20:58.839 --> 00:21:02.240
of my own, it makes me empathize too, right with
397
00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:05.839
ronal changes that he's going through. It would have been
398
00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:07.880
nice if it was a little more staggered, I will
399
00:21:07.880 --> 00:21:10.839
say that, but but at least there's that empathy piece, right,
400
00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:12.559
and then I can be honest with him about, Hey,
401
00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:15.680
I'm feeling differences too in my body or whatever, and
402
00:21:15.759 --> 00:21:18.880
like just sort of relating on that level. And I
403
00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:22.759
think it's we've had some really great one on one
404
00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:26.759
conversations because of that empathy and because of that safety
405
00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:27.759
that we've established.
406
00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:32.920
Yeah, that relationship is so key, so key, And I
407
00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:37.279
think what you're describing builds even more trust because they
408
00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:40.720
know that we've got them, but they also know that
409
00:21:40.759 --> 00:21:44.000
we're going to be real with them, correct that we're
410
00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:47.960
not you know, just I love you. You're my kenno
411
00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:51.680
everything's going to be great, right, Like they get more
412
00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:53.559
trust with honesty. Really right?
413
00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:56.880
Yeah, what you just said actually reminds me of this
414
00:21:56.960 --> 00:22:00.759
incident my son. We were we had just move states,
415
00:22:00.759 --> 00:22:02.920
and he was starting a new school, was starting the
416
00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:05.920
middle school as a fifth grader. It's here, it's fifth
417
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:08.279
or eighth grade. And I said to him, I had
418
00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:10.240
to drive him because they didn't have the bus service
419
00:22:10.279 --> 00:22:13.000
set up any of that stuff. So I'm dropping him
420
00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:15.680
off at school and I said, have a great day.
421
00:22:16.559 --> 00:22:19.440
He walks a little bit and then pauses. And this
422
00:22:19.559 --> 00:22:23.920
is the kiddo with expressive and receptive speech delay. He's
423
00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:26.519
always been vocal used his mouth words, but like when
424
00:22:26.519 --> 00:22:29.720
he says something and he's pausing, it means something. So
425
00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:33.039
he walks a little bit, pauses, turns back around to
426
00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:35.680
me and says, Mom, I don't know what type of
427
00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:39.920
day I'm going to have. And I was like, huh.
428
00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:42.240
But it was his way of telling me with real
429
00:22:42.279 --> 00:22:46.079
intentionality and focus, like I don't know what this is
430
00:22:46.119 --> 00:22:48.440
going to be. You can't just like blow smoke and
431
00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:51.920
mirrors in my face. This is scary. This is a
432
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:55.400
new school, it's big. I don't know any of these
433
00:22:55.480 --> 00:22:58.519
kids and let me have my feelings. And I can't
434
00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:00.519
promise you it's going to be this great day that
435
00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:02.640
you want me to have, you know what I mean.
436
00:23:03.400 --> 00:23:05.599
And that was like, Oh, I got to let you
437
00:23:06.519 --> 00:23:10.240
feel what you're feeling. I gotta let you experience what
438
00:23:10.279 --> 00:23:12.799
you're experiencing. Of course, I hope for you, as your
439
00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:15.359
mom that it's a great day, but I can't force
440
00:23:15.400 --> 00:23:19.240
a great day on you out of my control. What
441
00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:21.839
I can do is be here to receive you when
442
00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:24.400
you get home, and if it's a great day, hold
443
00:23:24.440 --> 00:23:27.519
space for that. If it was a scary day, hold
444
00:23:27.559 --> 00:23:30.119
space for that right and figure out what we can
445
00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:32.240
do to make it a little less scary the next day.
446
00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:35.200
But yeah, it was one of these big lessons. I
447
00:23:35.240 --> 00:23:39.000
still remember it like crystal clear because it was so impactful.
448
00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:41.519
And I think sometimes weeople want to wish away our kids,
449
00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:43.559
paying we want to wish away difficult times, and you
450
00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:44.200
cannot do that.
451
00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:49.039
Yeah, you can't. You can't. I'm wondering if a change
452
00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:52.279
in language would have helped, Like if you had said,
453
00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:56.319
I hope today is a great day, would that have
454
00:23:56.480 --> 00:23:59.880
been enough of a change, or would that still feel
455
00:23:59.880 --> 00:24:05.119
like pressure to have a good day and not really
456
00:24:05.160 --> 00:24:08.519
be in control of it.
Like our kids when they
457
00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:11.400
walk into a school building, they are not in control
458
00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:14.240
of whether or not they have a good day. That's
459
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:16.440
just reality, it is mm hmm.
460
00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:18.720
And I think for him at that time, because it
461
00:24:18.759 --> 00:24:20.720
was such a major shift that I think even that
462
00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:23.240
change in language would have felt like pressure to him.
463
00:24:23.720 --> 00:24:26.400
I think that would have resonated with him at the
464
00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:29.240
time was Buddy, whatever day you're going to have, just
465
00:24:29.319 --> 00:24:33.079
know I'm here for you when you get home, because
466
00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:35.920
it was it was so uncertain, there were so many
467
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:40.079
variables that it's like, hey, we you know, I hope
468
00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:41.839
the best for you, but whatever it's going to be,
469
00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:44.119
I'm here for you at the end of the day, right,
470
00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:47.000
and that this is your SAT's going to work, Yeah,
471
00:24:47.079 --> 00:24:48.839
you know where we're going to work through stuff together.
472
00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:51.799
But yeah, it was a really really big lesson. So
473
00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:54.440
I'm really intentional about like the language I'm using that
474
00:24:54.799 --> 00:24:58.640
seems great, seems benign, right, Hey pals have a great day,
475
00:24:58.680 --> 00:25:01.640
blah blah blah, But is that really holding space for
476
00:25:01.720 --> 00:25:05.640
his experience? Is that really he is like what he's
477
00:25:05.640 --> 00:25:08.759
going to need. And I'm finding no, I have to
478
00:25:08.920 --> 00:25:11.680
just be more real with him, and then he in
479
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:13.680
turned is real with me in ways that I don't
480
00:25:13.720 --> 00:25:16.359
always like. But you know, yeah, we're we have a
481
00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:19.160
relationship based in honesty, and I really appreciate that.
482
00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:24.319
It's everything. That's everything, and what we're talking about can
483
00:25:24.440 --> 00:25:27.480
get better, right, I want to end on this like
484
00:25:28.079 --> 00:25:31.759
it can get better. Like I remember in seventh or
485
00:25:31.759 --> 00:25:36.200
eighth grade, my son had started robotics after school. I
486
00:25:36.440 --> 00:25:40.640
finally found his people right and got in the car
487
00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:44.359
and one day after school and I at that point,
488
00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:46.119
I think I had stopped asking how is your day
489
00:25:46.119 --> 00:25:49.640
because it was met with a lot of grumpiness and silence,
490
00:25:50.119 --> 00:25:54.440
and I said something different, but he said, you know what,
491
00:25:55.559 --> 00:26:00.880
I finally have real friends. He said, you know when
492
00:26:00.920 --> 00:26:03.839
someone comes up and they talk to you first and
493
00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:07.240
you didn't even know they were there. Yet I have
494
00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:11.960
those friends now. And I went home and cried because
495
00:26:12.039 --> 00:26:16.319
I was like, thank goodness, we've done this, like I
496
00:26:16.359 --> 00:26:20.680
even have goosebumps now. And that was ten eleven years ago.
497
00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:24.240
Yes, of course, and it was.
498
00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:28.920
I think for me, the tears were He's gonna be okay,
499
00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:33.680
just does get better. He's gonna have friends. It is
500
00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:36.279
gonna be okay, and he's gonna have the real friends,
501
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:39.799
not the ones who are placating and pacifying and you know,
502
00:26:39.880 --> 00:26:43.240
trying to be polite but don't really want to spend time.
503
00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:48.039
Now he's found his people and it happens. It's just later,
504
00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:50.000
well later.
505
00:26:49.799 --> 00:26:53.160
But also again I think at the same time, right,
506
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:56.079
because you have to you have to be continuously exploring,
507
00:26:56.200 --> 00:26:59.880
like what what are your interests and what things do
508
00:26:59.880 --> 00:27:02.480
you want to try out? Right? So, like my son
509
00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:06.480
is really into swimming. He has a flair for the dramatique.
510
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:07.079
I don't know where he.
511
00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:09.039
Gets done, no no idea.
512
00:27:09.039 --> 00:27:12.440
But we found this great group, a theater group that's
513
00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:16.720
specifically it's like improvisational games. It's called sadari and I
514
00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:19.680
forget what the acronym s fills out to, but improvisational
515
00:27:19.720 --> 00:27:22.960
theater based games specifically for nor divergent tenes.
516
00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:24.759
Wow, and it.
517
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:26.759
He had done some theater before and then he had
518
00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:28.960
stopped because he had like a bad social experience, and
519
00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:32.160
then this was a perfect entryway back. And it's like
520
00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:34.359
he's like, mom, do I have group this week? Like
521
00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:37.440
it's like that like preemptive, like but with excitement, not
522
00:27:37.559 --> 00:27:39.799
like mom, do I have group this week, it's like no,
523
00:27:40.279 --> 00:27:43.839
like it's that, you know, elevated like intonation. And I
524
00:27:43.880 --> 00:27:45.559
can tell that he's interested, and I can tell that
525
00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:49.359
he's enjoying the company of those folks right in those
526
00:27:49.400 --> 00:27:52.000
moments where he's in a certain setting and someone will
527
00:27:52.039 --> 00:27:53.880
come up to him and say like hey, Gavin, and
528
00:27:53.920 --> 00:27:57.240
they're given a pound or whatever, Like those moments are
529
00:27:57.839 --> 00:28:01.480
really really cherished, like when you're seeing your kiddo's face
530
00:28:01.559 --> 00:28:03.880
light up right, And I wouldn't have known that you
531
00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:07.039
have to keep trying things right before you can see
532
00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:08.720
what's really going to work and where they're going to
533
00:28:08.759 --> 00:28:11.319
find their people. But that's the magic. And so when
534
00:28:11.319 --> 00:28:13.480
he's in those times of struggle, when there's someone a
535
00:28:13.480 --> 00:28:14.960
friend that he wants to be a friend that's not
536
00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:17.599
really a friend, I remind him, well, how does this
537
00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:21.799
feel in this situation versus this other situation where your
538
00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:24.640
voice is like hey mo, like are we having group?
539
00:28:24.640 --> 00:28:27.319
Am I going to see so and so today? Versus
540
00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:30.480
I wonder why this person isn't you know that anguish
541
00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:32.759
like and trying to get him to see those differences
542
00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:35.880
so that he can really continue to fill his cup
543
00:28:36.440 --> 00:28:40.079
from those experiences where they are authentic and reciprocated carry
544
00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:41.839
him through those hard parts and then so we'll get
545
00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:44.680
to some more of those. Yeah, I think such a journey.
546
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:47.240
And thank you for sharing that scenario with your son,
547
00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:49.880
because it honestly almost brought me to tears. And that's
548
00:28:50.079 --> 00:28:52.640
that's the thing, right, Like, it does get better, but
549
00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:55.720
the way to get to better is being honest. Yeah, authentic,
550
00:28:55.839 --> 00:28:58.119
pointing these things out so that they're not in lalla
551
00:28:58.160 --> 00:29:00.240
land and they can actually get to find their true people.
552
00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:03.319
And when they find they're true people, they know it. Like,
553
00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:06.640
if we keep saying everybody's a friend, how are they
554
00:29:06.680 --> 00:29:09.119
going to be able to stinguish sharing all?
555
00:29:09.279 --> 00:29:11.079
Because then people that treat me bad or my friends,
556
00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:12.759
people that don't talk to me at all are my friend.
557
00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:14.400
People that do say hi to me or my friend?
558
00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:16.000
Like what does that even mean?
559
00:29:16.359 --> 00:29:20.720
You know, the difference between being friendly and being a friend, right,
560
00:29:20.839 --> 00:29:23.079
I think that's what we're really talking about, is like
561
00:29:23.559 --> 00:29:25.640
we want kids in the classroom to be friendly to
562
00:29:25.720 --> 00:29:28.440
each other. That doesn't mean that they're all going to
563
00:29:28.519 --> 00:29:33.079
be true friends with each other. And that's okay, Like
564
00:29:33.119 --> 00:29:34.400
that's real life.
565
00:29:34.359 --> 00:29:36.559
It really is, and they are you know, even like
566
00:29:36.680 --> 00:29:38.559
me as an adult in the workforce, Like I have
567
00:29:38.680 --> 00:29:42.079
people that are acquaintances and that's perfectly fine. I respect
568
00:29:42.119 --> 00:29:44.799
my acquaintances, but that's where they are, right. I have
569
00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:48.759
colleagues people that I respect collegiately, but they're not my friends,
570
00:29:48.839 --> 00:29:51.920
and that's okay. And then I have my friends and
571
00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:54.319
it's a small circle for me because I you know,
572
00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:56.759
I'm an I'm an introvert and I like my time
573
00:29:56.839 --> 00:30:00.440
to myself. That's fine, but I know who those people are, right,
574
00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:03.079
And I'm not trying to conflate anything and make an
575
00:30:03.079 --> 00:30:06.480
acquaintance of Like that's just we all have that in
576
00:30:06.519 --> 00:30:08.799
our lives. And I do point that out to my
577
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:11.480
son as well, like, you know, same thing for mommy,
578
00:30:11.559 --> 00:30:13.319
Like I'm not just putting this on you. This is
579
00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:16.359
what I'm going through too. But yeah, that's what life
580
00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:19.440
is about. And I think middle school and puberty is
581
00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:21.960
one of those times where these things start to surface.
582
00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:24.640
But again, I can iterate enough. It doesn't just start
583
00:30:24.680 --> 00:30:27.000
at middle school. We have to think about the jectory
584
00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:29.799
of like what's happening before then once we get there,
585
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:33.079
and how can we be more honest at all those phases? Right,
586
00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:34.519
Even though it may be hard.
587
00:30:35.160 --> 00:30:37.279
Thank you so much when you tell everybody where to
588
00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:41.279
find you online so they can learn more, potentially work
589
00:30:41.319 --> 00:30:42.960
with you, all that good stuff.
590
00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:45.559
So on LinkedIn. I am doctor Kim Pinkney on LinkedIn
591
00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:48.599
as well as doctor Kim Pinkney on Instagram. You can
592
00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:50.319
find me there and I have a link tree and
593
00:30:50.359 --> 00:30:52.079
all that good stuff. I can share the links with
594
00:30:52.119 --> 00:30:52.720
you to post.
595
00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:55.640
Yep, we'll share all of that in the show notes
596
00:30:55.680 --> 00:30:59.559
as well. That can be found at parentingadhdnautism dot com.
597
00:31:00.119 --> 00:31:05.119
Thank you, you're such a infectious, warm person like I
598
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:07.799
just I have the best time talking with you. It
599
00:31:07.880 --> 00:31:11.720
always makes my day better. I appreciate it so much,
600
00:31:11.799 --> 00:31:16.079
so we'll have you back soon, I'm sure. All right.
601
00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:19.319
You take care everyone, and I'll see you next time.
602
00:31:20.920 --> 00:31:25.720
Visit beautifully hyphencomplex dot com for more resources, coaching and
603
00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:29.200
parent training, and help another kid by sharing this with
604
00:31:29.240 --> 00:31:31.400
someone who could benefit from listening.