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Language: en
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Now for today's show, my guest is
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someone who, like me, is not afraid to
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ask the challenging, unpopular
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questions. Not to provoke, but to
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understand what's missing, who's being
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overlooked, and how we might do better
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for everyone. David Maywald began his
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professional life in finance, moving
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through senior investment roles before
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transitioning into governance, board
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leadership, and advocacy. Along the way,
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he became deeply engaged in issues
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affecting boys, fathers, families, and
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men's health. Not from theory, but from
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lived experience as a husband, father,
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and enthusiastic citizen, paying close
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attention. He's known for questioning
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taken taken forranted assumptions,
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examining data others skim past, and
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inviting people away from polarized
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debate towards more thoughtful,
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constructive dialogue. David's recent
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book, The Relentless War on Masculinity,
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explores how Western societies have
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increasingly framed masculinity as
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something to be corrected and what that
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means for boys, education, men's mental
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health, fatherhood, family life, and
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social cohesion. Rather than arguing
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sides, he calls for a reset, a more
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balanced conversation that recognizes
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disadvantage where it exists, restores
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dignity, and ask men and women to work
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together for healthier outcomes across
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all settings. So, without further ado,
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it gives me great pleasure to open the
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mic to David Maywald. Welcome, David.
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>> Uh, good morning, Ray, and it is an
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absolute pleasure to be here with you.
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Um, I'd like to engage you as my
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publicist, I think, given that
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introduction. And, uh, I'd like to say
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good morning to all of the listeners,
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whether they are here, uh,
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geographically, temporarily. Um, and I'm
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really looking forward to our hopefully
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enlightening and sometimes uncomfortable
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conversation.
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>> Well, who knows where it'll go. We've
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got 2 hours to to color in, and I'm sure
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that's going to go like lightning, as
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they always do. But also, David has
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flown all the way from Canra to be here
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live. if we could have done it online as
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we do sometimes, but thank you so much
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for making that effort.
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>> Oh, I was very keen to and I've loved
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the chance to walk around the local area
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in Boxill. Uh walk through the gardens
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this morning. Saw a couple of groups of
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people um doing some uh very, you know,
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gentle, calming exercise, playing
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pingpong, the the beautiful playground
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there. Um and also had a chance to drop
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in at the local Catholic church, St.
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Francis Xavier. Um, and it's a delight
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to be here in person. Lovely to meet you
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in person. This is the first time we've
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met each other.
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>> It is.
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>> And uh, I think it's much more um,
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engaging to have uh, a face tof face
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conversation and to share some time
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together.
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>> There is nothing better than live radio.
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You can do a podcast, you can do a
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recording, but live radio is just
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something else. So So let's let's see
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how we go. But I I love starting the
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show talking about how we know each
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other cuz there's always a story behind
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it. LinkedIn tells me that we met uh
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online in September 2023 and we didn't
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really have any dialogue back then, but
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I can't remember who joined who first. I
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probably guess I reached out to you
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might have seen your involvement with
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Australian Men's Health Forum um where
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you're on the board and your chair um
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and I had been leaning into uh during
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that time more and more uh boldness in
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terms of advocacy research and um
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putting more of my time into and I I had
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several board positions at that time. So
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no doubt I was keenly uh observing and
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watching and learning from other board
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members. Yes. Well, an amazing
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organization, the Australian Men's
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Health Forum. I I served on that board
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for eight years and that learning
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trajectory for me was incredible. Uh,
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you know, being with like-minded people,
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especially under the leadership of Glenn
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P, who is, you know, he's men's health,
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you know, he's he knows that in spades,
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and his perspective is also very
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balanced uh about everybody. And I
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really liked that framing of of men's
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health that it is about everyone.
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>> I enjoy chatting with Glenn.
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>> Yeah.
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>> And he brings experience from from
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England as well. Um those perspectives
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and leadership in writing and speaking
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advocating and I think he has a clarity
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of thought and he has an appreciation
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across the different perspectives
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without being dragged into particular
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biases or or uh partisanship.
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>> Yeah. you know, he's he's doing a great
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job. But you've also come a long way
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from finance and investment worlds that
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don't usually sit all that naturally
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alongside conversations about care,
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vulnerability, and men's well-being.
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>> Yeah. Well, I I did fall into finance.
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It wasn't the first choice in terms of
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careers and areas.
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>> What was the first choice? I was going
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to be a computer systems engineer and um
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went to university at the age of 17. Um
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and
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>> that's very young, isn't it?
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>> Yeah. I I turned 17 heading into my year
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12 exams. I was probably a little bit
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immature. And um
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>> did you start school when you were four
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or something?
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>> I would have been in the younger younger
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half of those classes. And um and when I
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started university um I really
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struggled. like mood states and had one
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friend. Um really was found it very
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challenging um in what way emotionally,
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socially, the lack of uh family
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connection, being away from my friends
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and that year it it was a real challenge
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for me. The first time I'd really
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suffered academic failure and stumbled
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and um I had to reset. It took a good
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couple of years really to get back on my
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feet. and I tried three different
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courses and directions and was very
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fortunate to find commerce and economics
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and finance and um in my first unit at
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university I literally got 100% doing
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commerce 101 and realized that there's
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probably you know good fit there.
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>> Was that a maturity thing do you think
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or you just gravitated naturally?
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>> It took a while. Yeah. I think with a
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lot of boys, teenagers, young men,
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they're slightly behind cognitively.
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They're catching up with their the
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cohort. Some of the girls are a little
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bit more mature. And that was certainly
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the case for me um in my late teens and
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early 20s. And I needed to try a few
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different things, find those areas that
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I was suited to, you know, discover my
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real strengths and and areas that I'd be
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able to contribute. And I was very
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fortunate to find that. And when I did
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uh I really flourished and then moved
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into state again to take up a job.
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>> So you started in South Australia.
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>> Yeah, that's right.
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>> And then you moved to
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>> moved to CRA on a scholarship and lived
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in CRA for 6 years and then finished uh
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with two degrees and honors and moved to
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Sydney like many of the graduates at
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that time going to finance working in
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funds management as I did or bank
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banking or investment banking. M and
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that was did you enjoy that?
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>> Some of it I really enjoyed. You know, I
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moved to Sydney at the start of 2000
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>> and it was the Olympics year,
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>> right?
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>> And so there was a huge wave of
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anticipation and in social engagement
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and um team Australia I guess getting
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behind this Kathy Freeman in in the year
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2000.
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>> And so it was a big new world for me.
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>> Yeah. Yeah, I had to very quickly get up
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to speed professionally and contribute
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and deliver value and also again moving
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states, reestablishing friendships,
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finding support,
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>> especially in the fastest city in
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Australia being Sydney. Now I you know
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back in the very very early 80s I worked
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in banking and finance myself um with a
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chief economist and you know my
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reflection back then working in the
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money markets was very very you know
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mostly male environments um I know
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that's changed a lot since but when you
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were there in Sydney in the 2000s was it
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still very very mostly male environments
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>> it was notably male okay
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>> and when I was at university I had
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worked as a parliament house tour guide
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at New Parliament I saw that on your
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rabb sheet
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>> which was an extremely
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female and feminized um cohort. There
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was a female guy, three senior female
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leaders and there were only a handful of
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men within a team of about 40. So I had
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gone from Parliament House, you know,
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sort of matriarchal organization
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into financial sector in Sydney, which
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was the opposite. And so it was very
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obvious and uh I got that experience as
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a young person having seen both sides
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and appreciating the benefits of both.
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>> Yeah. What were you seeing in the
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underbelly of that? You know, and again
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upon my reflection working with with
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those men, you know, back then there was
00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:20.310
a lot of booze. There was a lot of
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really really hardcore working. There
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was probably a lot of, you know,
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misogyny going on. Um but when I look
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underneath that you know you see men in
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pain men who necessarily did not choose
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to be in those professions but were just
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surviving. What did you see?
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>> I saw mostly
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men and there were women in those teams
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uh and some very successful women but
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men who were applying themselves who
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found their niche who felt valued
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because they were earning a lot of
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money. They felt some stature around
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that. um not necessarily a calling in a
00:09:57.920 --> 00:10:01.910
spiritual sense. Uh I think for myself
00:10:01.920 --> 00:10:03.670
and for others there was probably a gap
00:10:03.680 --> 00:10:06.870
there, a hole and for me I filled that
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with voluntary work and with being
00:10:09.839 --> 00:10:11.590
involved in the local community.
00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:14.630
>> What gap and hole did you feel? Um
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there's very much a focus on making
00:10:16.640 --> 00:10:18.389
money for your shareholders, for your
00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:19.750
for your principal, for your
00:10:19.760 --> 00:10:21.269
organization.
00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:23.430
And you get to share in that through
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salaries and bonuses, but it can be very
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empty. And in investment management in
00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:31.269
particular, you're constantly striving
00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:33.269
for better performance. So you're trying
00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:35.990
to add a basis point here and a basis
00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:39.350
point there, which is 0.01% tiny little,
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>> you know, uh difference to your
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performance statistics. and you're also
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trying to convince people to invest
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their money with you. So, you're
00:10:46.880 --> 00:10:49.190
constantly on show. You've got your
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talking points and your pictures and
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you're trying to differentiate yourself
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from this incredibly competitive
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heterogeneous market.
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>> Those teams tended to have a bit of
00:10:59.920 --> 00:11:02.710
unonymity in
00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:06.949
their values, in their um
00:11:06.959 --> 00:11:09.910
style of competing. um they did tend to
00:11:09.920 --> 00:11:13.269
have a strong male leader who um was
00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:15.670
successful and imparted some of that
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knowledge on the younger staff and so
00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:19.350
obviously as a as a young employee I
00:11:19.360 --> 00:11:20.870
looked up to those people. I was looking
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how they live their lives.
00:11:22.640 --> 00:11:25.590
>> In other cases there was emptiness. You
00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:28.870
know having a very ownorous job means
00:11:28.880 --> 00:11:31.829
that you have to cut corners in other
00:11:31.839 --> 00:11:34.069
parts of your life. You can't be as
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present as a parent. So, I remember one
00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:39.990
classic um example, a trader who
00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:41.509
mentioned at one time to me that during
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the week he didn't see his kids because
00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:45.590
he was leaving the house so early, had a
00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:47.430
big commute, was getting into work to
00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:49.509
start for the trading hours, and then
00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:50.710
was getting home when the kids were
00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:54.310
already in bed. That left a big mark on
00:11:54.320 --> 00:11:57.990
me at that time. I wanted to, you know,
00:11:58.000 --> 00:11:59.269
I was looking for a partner. I was
00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:02.389
thinking about family eventually. And
00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:04.389
that story stuck with me for the best
00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:08.230
part of what 24 or 25 years. And I
00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:10.069
certainly said to myself, I don't want
00:12:10.079 --> 00:12:13.190
to be that father. And I felt that he
00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:15.590
was missing out. And other men do miss
00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:18.230
out because of the very strong
00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:19.670
commitment and time that they're putting
00:12:19.680 --> 00:12:21.030
into their careers.
00:12:21.040 --> 00:12:22.790
>> Do you think it's an expectation or a
00:12:22.800 --> 00:12:24.230
choice?
00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:26.230
>> Well, it can be both. There was an
00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:28.470
expectation generally in the firms that
00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:30.629
I worked with that you you'd work more
00:12:30.639 --> 00:12:33.030
than your expected hours.
00:12:33.040 --> 00:12:34.949
>> There was no time sheets. No one was
00:12:34.959 --> 00:12:36.710
saying I've worked 15 minutes overtime
00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:39.350
or I had to come in on the weekend. I I
00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:40.870
did lots of weekends. I did some
00:12:40.880 --> 00:12:42.629
allnighters. I did lots and lots of
00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:45.509
extra time and was always paid a salary.
00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:47.110
Never paid by the hour, never paid by
00:12:47.120 --> 00:12:50.949
the day. And so it was a part of the
00:12:50.959 --> 00:12:53.110
culture of those teams that everyone's
00:12:53.120 --> 00:12:55.269
pulling together and that you don't
00:12:55.279 --> 00:12:58.870
nitpick about particular aspects of the
00:12:58.880 --> 00:13:02.629
owners get results and if that requires
00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:04.710
you know more of your resources your
00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:06.710
personal resources you have to give them
00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:09.190
otherwise you can't be there.
00:13:09.200 --> 00:13:10.389
>> But it was informal.
00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:10.870
>> Yeah.
00:13:10.880 --> 00:13:12.310
>> That wasn't formally spelled out. It
00:13:12.320 --> 00:13:12.870
wasn't
00:13:12.880 --> 00:13:15.190
>> Yeah. I mean discretionary hours in
00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:17.750
mostly male settings is is incredible.
00:13:17.760 --> 00:13:19.190
you know, the amount of discretionary
00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:21.750
hours that that are um inputed into
00:13:21.760 --> 00:13:23.509
those into those industries.
00:13:23.519 --> 00:13:26.150
>> But I'm thankful that I did that before
00:13:26.160 --> 00:13:27.110
becoming a father.
00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:27.430
>> Yeah.
00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:29.590
>> To be honest, because
00:13:29.600 --> 00:13:32.710
>> I was much more established and my son
00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:34.389
was born when I was 40.
00:13:34.399 --> 00:13:37.110
>> So by that time, I had more flexibility
00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:39.269
and more discretion about how much time
00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:40.790
I was putting into work. And I was able
00:13:40.800 --> 00:13:43.030
to go back to 4 days. And then when my
00:13:43.040 --> 00:13:44.550
daughter was born, I went to 3 days
00:13:44.560 --> 00:13:45.590
permanent part-time.
00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:47.590
>> Yeah. cuz you spoke about becoming quite
00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:50.550
independent after selling the business.
00:13:50.560 --> 00:13:53.110
Um when was that? Was that during the
00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:55.030
time when you first had children or
00:13:55.040 --> 00:13:55.990
later?
00:13:56.000 --> 00:13:58.389
>> So that was about 15 years into my
00:13:58.399 --> 00:13:59.990
career. This is 10 years ago.
00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:00.550
>> Yeah.
00:14:00.560 --> 00:14:04.790
>> And that was after 10 years of slogging
00:14:04.800 --> 00:14:07.110
away in a startup helping to build a
00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:10.470
company and selling our services
00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:13.269
overseas. doing a lot of travel, product
00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:16.550
design, a lot of really ownorous work as
00:14:16.560 --> 00:14:19.910
analyst and portfolio manager. So I felt
00:14:19.920 --> 00:14:23.430
very grateful that the second startup
00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:25.670
that I worked for ended up being very
00:14:25.680 --> 00:14:28.790
successful because the chances can be
00:14:28.800 --> 00:14:30.150
much lower than that.
00:14:30.160 --> 00:14:32.150
>> Uh can be very risky. You can you can
00:14:32.160 --> 00:14:35.110
lose years of your life plowing into a
00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:36.550
business plan that ends up not going
00:14:36.560 --> 00:14:37.189
anywhere.
00:14:37.199 --> 00:14:40.310
>> Yeah. So I was very fortunate to be in a
00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:43.350
successful startup that was sold just uh
00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:45.269
10 years after it started.
00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:47.670
>> Great. So that and enabled you to make
00:14:47.680 --> 00:14:49.430
choices about your life.
00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:51.350
>> Yeah. It was transformational.
00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:52.069
>> Yeah.
00:14:52.079 --> 00:14:55.590
>> Like I said um in the years after that I
00:14:55.600 --> 00:14:57.269
had a lot of leave. I used that leave to
00:14:57.279 --> 00:14:59.350
spend more time with my son and give my
00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:01.910
wife some respite. And then when my
00:15:01.920 --> 00:15:03.990
daughter was born, I was in a position
00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:06.310
where I could drop my hours back and we
00:15:06.320 --> 00:15:09.110
had that flexibility which I feel really
00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:11.189
blessed to have had when the kids were
00:15:11.199 --> 00:15:11.910
young.
00:15:11.920 --> 00:15:14.069
>> And for example, we have were often
00:15:14.079 --> 00:15:16.230
turning up at the library or the pool or
00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:18.230
going to the park or the beach as a
00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:18.870
whole family.
00:15:18.880 --> 00:15:19.189
>> Yeah.
00:15:19.199 --> 00:15:21.189
>> You know, mom and dad, the son and
00:15:21.199 --> 00:15:24.150
daughter. M uh whereas I was often
00:15:24.160 --> 00:15:27.590
seeing moms with one, two, three kids,
00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:29.670
um grandmoms, sometimes granddads,
00:15:29.680 --> 00:15:32.069
occasionally see dads, but uh we were
00:15:32.079 --> 00:15:34.150
almost always the only full family that
00:15:34.160 --> 00:15:35.670
was going along to those events with our
00:15:35.680 --> 00:15:37.189
young kids, which was a real blessing.
00:15:37.199 --> 00:15:38.949
>> What on weekends?
00:15:38.959 --> 00:15:40.389
>> Both, you know, sometimes during the
00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:43.110
week, often um yeah, around uh around
00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:43.910
other hours.
00:15:43.920 --> 00:15:44.389
>> Yeah.
00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:46.710
>> But my wife and I both had u a lot of
00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:48.230
flexibility because of that
00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:49.910
transformational
00:15:49.920 --> 00:15:50.870
>> um blessing.
00:15:50.880 --> 00:15:53.749
>> Yeah. It's no it's it is very very lucky
00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:55.749
no doubt that you worked extraordinarily
00:15:55.759 --> 00:15:58.150
hard to be able to make those choices in
00:15:58.160 --> 00:16:01.829
your life but um fortunate no no less.
00:16:01.839 --> 00:16:03.670
Um I I think I heard you say something
00:16:03.680 --> 00:16:05.189
about
00:16:05.199 --> 00:16:07.030
this sort of shifted the question from
00:16:07.040 --> 00:16:09.509
what you need to earn to what actually
00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:12.230
matters. That was a quote I pulled out
00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:14.150
from somewhere that you said.
00:16:14.160 --> 00:16:15.670
>> Was that a that was that a really
00:16:15.680 --> 00:16:17.590
conscious shift for you?
00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:22.389
I was very aware when I was working 100%
00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:23.910
plus
00:16:23.920 --> 00:16:27.509
that
00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:31.350
there was a a strong draw on my time. I
00:16:31.360 --> 00:16:33.990
was seeing a lot of other um single
00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:36.069
people and young parents on that
00:16:36.079 --> 00:16:38.550
treadmill um doing it because of a big
00:16:38.560 --> 00:16:40.230
mortgage, doing it because of having to
00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:43.350
pay the bills and feeling that they
00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:45.590
didn't have choices.
00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:47.990
um for example, pay down the mortgage
00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:50.550
and then they they trade up to a more
00:16:50.560 --> 00:16:52.550
expensive house or a nicer suburb or
00:16:52.560 --> 00:16:56.230
stay on that hedonic sort of treadmill
00:16:56.240 --> 00:16:59.030
where uh they never feel they've they've
00:16:59.040 --> 00:17:01.110
got satisfied or they can slow things
00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:04.390
down. And you know, me and my wife, we
00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:06.150
made a conscious choice, an intentional
00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:08.949
choice that we didn't just want to chase
00:17:08.959 --> 00:17:10.630
that, that we wanted to have more
00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:12.870
discretion of our time. Mhm.
00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:15.829
>> And that opened up
00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:18.069
huge opportunities. You know, like I
00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:21.110
said, um I had a 20 year career in
00:17:21.120 --> 00:17:22.710
finance, but I was starting to feel a
00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:24.789
bit burnt out and getting a bit bored
00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:25.909
on, you know, to be honest. I was
00:17:25.919 --> 00:17:27.110
getting a bit bored with doing the same
00:17:27.120 --> 00:17:28.390
things for so long.
00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:31.750
>> Um I came not probably not the person
00:17:31.760 --> 00:17:34.870
who would do uh a job or a career for 30
00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:36.950
or 40 years. I think that's not in my
00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:39.750
personality. So I felt that it was time
00:17:39.760 --> 00:17:41.669
to do something different. And there was
00:17:41.679 --> 00:17:46.549
a epiphany for me when I found myself
00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:48.950
setting the alarm at 4:30 and 5:00 in
00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:50.630
the morning. And I was doing this
00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:53.510
advocacy around bicycle road safety
00:17:53.520 --> 00:17:55.830
because I was a I was a really avid
00:17:55.840 --> 00:17:57.909
member of one of the big bicycle clubs
00:17:57.919 --> 00:18:00.710
in Sydney called Duchill Bicycle Club.
00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:03.110
And my son was around. So we were both
00:18:03.120 --> 00:18:04.710
sleepd deprived. We were both a bit
00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:07.029
thinly stretched working and other
00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:09.270
things. And I found myself setting the
00:18:09.280 --> 00:18:12.630
alarm really early in the morning and
00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:14.870
wanting to spend time doing this work on
00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:18.470
advocacy. And it was delivering so much
00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:22.870
inherent reward. It was so energizing in
00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:27.909
my midlife that I felt the benefits of
00:18:27.919 --> 00:18:30.310
that intangible
00:18:30.320 --> 00:18:31.909
um
00:18:31.919 --> 00:18:34.870
impact of what I was doing. And it was
00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:37.510
much more powerful than the salary, the
00:18:37.520 --> 00:18:39.830
paychecks coming in. And I realized at
00:18:39.840 --> 00:18:43.430
that time that there was a calling there
00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:45.350
that there were other things I could
00:18:45.360 --> 00:18:48.070
contribute socially to other families to
00:18:48.080 --> 00:18:51.029
communities. And that was really a
00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:52.549
transformational time when it really
00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:53.909
crystallized that I wanted to do more
00:18:53.919 --> 00:18:55.350
time in governance on boards and
00:18:55.360 --> 00:18:57.750
nonprofits. And eventually led to where
00:18:57.760 --> 00:19:00.390
I am now doing advocacy for men and boys
00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:01.590
and writing a book.
00:19:01.600 --> 00:19:05.270
>> Yeah. Isn't it incredible how purpose
00:19:05.280 --> 00:19:09.029
and responsibility builds energy?
00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:09.430
It's
00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:12.710
>> um if you could bottle that and um hand
00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:14.070
that around, I think the world would be
00:19:14.080 --> 00:19:17.510
a better place. Um
00:19:17.520 --> 00:19:19.909
how did becoming a parent sort of
00:19:19.919 --> 00:19:21.990
sharpen your awareness of the systems
00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:24.310
boys and families um move through? Do
00:19:24.320 --> 00:19:24.950
you think
00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:26.950
>> it was really fundamental having a son
00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:29.510
and a daughter, it changed my whole
00:19:29.520 --> 00:19:32.789
perspective. It lengthened the time
00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:35.830
frames I was thinking about from this
00:19:35.840 --> 00:19:38.390
week and this year to a decade or two
00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:40.549
decades down the track. You know, in way
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:43.110
>> thinking about their life, about the
00:19:43.120 --> 00:19:44.549
school system they go through, about the
00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:46.390
jobs they have, about the partners they
00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:48.470
have in the future. Um, you know,
00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:50.950
aspiring to having grandchildren. It
00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:54.070
really lengthened my thoughts around
00:19:54.080 --> 00:19:55.909
legacy and the world that I want to try
00:19:55.919 --> 00:19:58.470
and shape for them. Uh and it also was
00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:00.789
fundamental to have both a son and a
00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:05.510
daughter because I love them equally
00:20:05.520 --> 00:20:09.590
honestly um deeply care for both of them
00:20:09.600 --> 00:20:13.350
and I don't want one of them to be a
00:20:13.360 --> 00:20:15.909
beneficiary of the suffering or lack of
00:20:15.919 --> 00:20:19.270
opportunities of the other. And I feel
00:20:19.280 --> 00:20:21.350
that for you know their friends as well.
00:20:21.360 --> 00:20:24.710
I feel like for the cousins and for my
00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:27.350
my friends kids that I want them all to
00:20:27.360 --> 00:20:30.230
have opportunities. I don't want any
00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:32.549
group of those children and that
00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:34.950
generation to be discriminated against
00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:40.390
or denigrated or to suffer culturally. M
00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:41.830
how do you find you know when you're
00:20:41.840 --> 00:20:43.590
working in such a micro place like you
00:20:43.600 --> 00:20:45.029
see your son and your daughter and you
00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:47.909
want to affect change for their future
00:20:47.919 --> 00:20:50.230
how does that impact the world globally
00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:51.190
do you think
00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:54.549
>> I think it does have a very big impact
00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:58.149
and for Gen X parents for millennial
00:20:58.159 --> 00:20:58.549
parents
00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:00.789
>> no I mean literally how does your work
00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:03.669
and your intentional work impact
00:21:03.679 --> 00:21:05.830
globally how how how can that
00:21:05.840 --> 00:21:10.789
reverberate enough.
00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:15.190
>> I aspire to that. I was thinking about
00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:16.950
that in terms of the book, but I've
00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:20.789
already done a lot of online advocacy.
00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:23.750
I've been trying to find messages that
00:21:23.760 --> 00:21:26.390
are shared and welcomed by men and
00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:29.430
women. I'm very conscious about mothers
00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:31.909
of sons, about reaching them as a
00:21:31.919 --> 00:21:36.149
demographic and an audience and about um
00:21:36.159 --> 00:21:39.430
reaching out to likeminded people of
00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:41.669
goodwill, whether that's parents,
00:21:41.679 --> 00:21:43.270
whether that's Christians, whether
00:21:43.280 --> 00:21:46.149
that's people who share the values
00:21:46.159 --> 00:21:50.390
around um empowering and equality of
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:52.310
opportunities and treating people with
00:21:52.320 --> 00:21:53.990
decency.
00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:56.070
>> No, I I agree. when it wasn't sort of a
00:21:56.080 --> 00:21:58.070
a leading question like how are you
00:21:58.080 --> 00:22:00.630
going to save the world it was more how
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:02.549
you know how can we do this and the
00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:05.270
world now is a much more connected place
00:22:05.280 --> 00:22:08.630
where we can and I've shared with you uh
00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:11.350
my work uh with global action on men's
00:22:11.360 --> 00:22:13.510
health and some of our very very
00:22:13.520 --> 00:22:16.310
ambitious uh initiatives that we have in
00:22:16.320 --> 00:22:18.310
the pipeline at the moment especially
00:22:18.320 --> 00:22:21.110
around affecting change to men's mental
00:22:21.120 --> 00:22:23.430
health globally and that just looks like
00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:26.310
such an insurmountable task but we sort
00:22:26.320 --> 00:22:29.029
of found a way to you know create a
00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:31.110
structure that is that is going to be
00:22:31.120 --> 00:22:35.190
possible. Um and for that for that for
00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:37.270
from that perspective I can see how it
00:22:37.280 --> 00:22:40.390
is very easy to scale and get across the
00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:42.870
broad sense of things when you have
00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:45.750
people like you and like many others
00:22:45.760 --> 00:22:48.710
like you that knit it all together. Um,
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:50.549
and when we're working together for the
00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:53.750
same for the same cause or for the same
00:22:53.760 --> 00:22:56.630
um outcome, which is the long the long
00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:58.870
game, not the short game. Um, I think we
00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:00.390
do have a chance.
00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:02.310
>> Well, in particular, I'm really very
00:23:02.320 --> 00:23:05.190
curious and I like to understand. And
00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:06.950
so, I'd seen a lot of grievance. I'd
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:08.310
seen a lot of complaints and
00:23:08.320 --> 00:23:10.549
dissatisfaction. But what I wanted to
00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:13.110
add was a perspective about sharing
00:23:13.120 --> 00:23:15.750
insight and understanding and opening up
00:23:15.760 --> 00:23:18.230
pathways to positive change.
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:21.110
So I'm particularly inspired to search
00:23:21.120 --> 00:23:23.830
for what are the changes we can make in
00:23:23.840 --> 00:23:25.990
education? How can we co-design health
00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:28.549
services with male patients and
00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:29.669
beneficiaries?
00:23:29.679 --> 00:23:31.430
>> So I'm very focused on that next step
00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:34.390
and you you'd see that as a board member
00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:36.710
>> that you diagnose, you look at options
00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:40.070
and then you uh attempt to execute on
00:23:40.080 --> 00:23:43.270
what appear to be the most practical and
00:23:43.280 --> 00:23:46.390
um feasible and beneficial options.
00:23:46.400 --> 00:23:49.190
Yeah, as and as we move through the
00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:50.710
show, I think we're going to unpack more
00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:52.310
and more and more about how this is a
00:23:52.320 --> 00:23:55.110
unified approach. It's not this, you
00:23:55.120 --> 00:23:59.750
know, some zero
00:23:59.760 --> 00:24:02.470
zero sum total. Is that how we say it?
00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:04.149
>> Okay, I always get it around the way.
00:24:04.159 --> 00:24:06.390
It's if we're taking from um if we're
00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:07.750
giving to men, we're taking away from
00:24:07.760 --> 00:24:09.909
women. It is a very unified approach
00:24:09.919 --> 00:24:12.630
around how if we if if we're supporting
00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:14.549
women, we're also supporting men and
00:24:14.559 --> 00:24:17.029
vice versa. It's just this is the way it
00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:17.830
is
00:24:17.840 --> 00:24:20.310
>> or this the way it can be.
00:24:20.320 --> 00:24:22.870
>> Yeah.
00:24:22.880 --> 00:24:26.390
>> Okay. Well, then David, it's that time
00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:29.029
of the show that I've clumsily coined
00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:32.070
the very special guest song request. And
00:24:32.080 --> 00:24:33.590
it's a moment's break where I have a bit
00:24:33.600 --> 00:24:35.269
of fun queuing up a song from your
00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:37.510
selection. And you have to guess from my
00:24:37.520 --> 00:24:40.710
very cryptically cryptic clue which one
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:43.750
it is. Also, it could be the song title,
00:24:43.760 --> 00:24:45.269
it could be the artist, it could be a
00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:46.390
combination of both. It could be
00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:48.549
anything really that I've decided at,
00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:50.549
you know, probably 4:00 in the morning.
00:24:50.559 --> 00:24:52.070
Does that does that make sense?
00:24:52.080 --> 00:24:54.070
>> Gotcha.
00:24:54.080 --> 00:24:59.590
>> So, your clue is what Soule must do to
00:24:59.600 --> 00:25:03.590
succeed.
00:25:03.600 --> 00:25:05.510
>> This would be Eddie Eddie that rise.
00:25:05.520 --> 00:25:07.990
>> That's the one. Fantastic. That was a
00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:10.070
pretty good clue.
00:25:10.080 --> 00:25:11.830
We got a bit of crackle there on the um
00:25:11.840 --> 00:25:13.190
on on the on the sound waves there.
00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:13.430
Sounds
00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:14.149
>> like vinyl.
00:25:14.159 --> 00:25:17.190
>> It does. It does. So, um what does this
00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:18.390
this song mean for you?
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:20.230
>> It's hugely inspiring and uplifting.
00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:20.630
>> Yeah.
00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:22.630
>> To me, and it's so simple.
00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:24.390
>> He's sitting there with ukulele.
00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:26.230
>> You know, it's acoustic. It's beautiful.
00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:29.269
It's crisp. And it really speaks to my
00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:30.070
heart.
00:25:30.080 --> 00:25:31.430
>> You know, my son said to me the other
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:33.430
day is, "Why didn't you get me ukulele
00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:35.750
lessons, Mom?" Like, just didn't occur
00:25:35.760 --> 00:25:37.669
to me.
00:25:37.679 --> 00:25:40.470
But now I can see why he's asking that
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:42.710
>> portable. You can take it anywhere.
00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:44.149
>> Now when we come back from the break,
00:25:44.159 --> 00:25:46.070
let's get across a big chunk of the how,
00:25:46.080 --> 00:25:49.510
what, why, where, when, and who of you.
00:25:49.520 --> 00:25:51.269
How does that sound?
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:51.990
>> All good.
00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:54.870
>> Great. Uh, you're listening to 94.1 FM.
00:25:54.880 --> 00:25:59.190
It's 3 WBC. Do not go away.
00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:00.630
>> Oh, how beautiful.
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:01.990
>> Uplifting.
00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:03.830
>> It's a great way to uh continue our
00:26:03.840 --> 00:26:05.990
conversation on a lovely Sunday morning.
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:07.830
>> It is that ukulele. I should have sent
00:26:07.840 --> 00:26:10.870
Rory to ukulele lessons. Anyway people,
00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:12.870
welcome back. The time is just 31
00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:15.669
minutes past 10 and you're listening to
00:26:15.679 --> 00:26:17.750
what does it feel like being you today?
00:26:17.760 --> 00:26:19.909
I'm Ray Bonnie and with me is David
00:26:19.919 --> 00:26:22.630
Maywald. He's a governance specialist,
00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:24.549
board director, and author of a brand
00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:26.870
new book, The Relentless War on
00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:28.710
Masculinity.
00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:30.070
>> Provocative title.
00:26:30.080 --> 00:26:32.710
>> Oh, do you know what?
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:34.870
Since I posted about this show, the
00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:36.710
amount of people that have said, "hm,
00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:38.470
that's going to be controversial, isn't
00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:41.430
it?" And my response was, "This is
00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:43.190
probably controversial in itself.
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:45.830
Reverse the gender on this and see if
00:26:45.840 --> 00:26:47.350
that would be controversial." And it
00:26:47.360 --> 00:26:49.110
probably wouldn't be.
00:26:49.120 --> 00:26:51.669
>> And why is it that caring about men and
00:26:51.679 --> 00:26:53.750
their health and their well-being and
00:26:53.760 --> 00:26:55.430
their prosperity, why is that
00:26:55.440 --> 00:26:58.310
controversial? It rubs up against an
00:26:58.320 --> 00:27:02.630
innate bias towards protecting and
00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:04.789
uplifting and cherishing females,
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:07.350
>> which should happen. I'm all for that.
00:27:07.360 --> 00:27:09.669
But I'm all for uplifting and cherishing
00:27:09.679 --> 00:27:11.269
everybody really.
00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:12.630
>> I aspire to that as well.
00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:15.750
>> It's just, you know, look, I'm I'm a
00:27:15.760 --> 00:27:17.590
woman. I I love being cherished. I love
00:27:17.600 --> 00:27:19.430
being cared for. I love I love feeling
00:27:19.440 --> 00:27:21.830
safe. And sometimes I'm I'm as safe as I
00:27:21.840 --> 00:27:23.510
want to be. I have a responsibility to
00:27:23.520 --> 00:27:25.990
do that for myself. um and how I
00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:27.990
navigate myself through the world.
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:30.230
Anyway, let's not go off on that tangent
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:33.110
cuz I have a question for you. And it
00:27:33.120 --> 00:27:35.269
goes like this. What does it feel like
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:38.789
being you today, David?
00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:43.110
>> My response would start with it's much
00:27:43.120 --> 00:27:45.669
bigger than just a feeling being here
00:27:45.679 --> 00:27:49.029
embodied in this moment.
00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:50.950
It's much broader than an emotional
00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:55.990
reaction or uh I I sense that and and
00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:58.950
reflect on that in a multi-dimensional
00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:01.110
perspective. Oh, a lot of thoughts and
00:28:01.120 --> 00:28:02.870
transient
00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:06.310
um moments
00:28:06.320 --> 00:28:10.149
partly which are feelings but many of
00:28:10.159 --> 00:28:13.430
them not. And and I guess that's
00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:16.470
slightly masculine in terms of
00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:19.190
responding to that awareness of your
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:23.510
being. And so I guess I have a much
00:28:23.520 --> 00:28:27.590
closer uh connection to those transient
00:28:27.600 --> 00:28:31.110
thoughts and those uh aspirations and
00:28:31.120 --> 00:28:34.950
reflections on failures and achievements
00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:37.750
than a close attachment to the feelings
00:28:37.760 --> 00:28:39.990
and the emotions which I feel are a bit
00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:43.669
um temporary and not always good guides
00:28:43.679 --> 00:28:45.909
to taking action and interacting with
00:28:45.919 --> 00:28:49.029
people. H I reckon that's the best
00:28:49.039 --> 00:28:51.190
answer to that question that I've ever
00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:53.590
received and I've asked that a lot of
00:28:53.600 --> 00:28:56.470
times as you know that is my tagline. Uh
00:28:56.480 --> 00:28:59.350
but I really really love that you've not
00:28:59.360 --> 00:29:01.110
only thought about the question but
00:29:01.120 --> 00:29:02.710
you've really dug into yourself to
00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:05.110
realize that it is more than a feeling.
00:29:05.120 --> 00:29:07.510
Um you know I believe you know when we
00:29:07.520 --> 00:29:09.590
have a feeling pretty quickly an emotion
00:29:09.600 --> 00:29:11.110
will come up and latch on to that
00:29:11.120 --> 00:29:13.110
feeling and then all of a sudden you're
00:29:13.120 --> 00:29:14.389
you're linking it to all these other
00:29:14.399 --> 00:29:15.990
things as well. So you're absolutely
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:18.230
right. It's yeah the feeling is the
00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:21.190
origin but what comes after that is um
00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:22.149
is very unique.
00:29:22.159 --> 00:29:23.750
>> You could ask me that question 10 times
00:29:23.760 --> 00:29:25.110
today and I might have a completely
00:29:25.120 --> 00:29:25.990
different answer.
00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:28.149
>> Well that's the reason why today is on
00:29:28.159 --> 00:29:30.230
the end or maybe I should change it to
00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:32.470
now. What does it feel like being you
00:29:32.480 --> 00:29:35.830
now? Because it is subjective.
00:29:35.840 --> 00:29:40.230
>> And I guess what I see with kids is an
00:29:40.240 --> 00:29:42.950
emphasis on vocalizing their emotions
00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:44.549
and their feelings.
00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:47.029
>> And perhaps that causes them to ruminate
00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:51.110
or to attach too much. Whereas
00:29:51.120 --> 00:29:53.990
um this might be a smaller part of their
00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:57.350
lives that we don't necessarily need to
00:29:57.360 --> 00:29:59.669
overemphasize or we don't need to draw
00:29:59.679 --> 00:30:01.510
out. And I think that's particularly the
00:30:01.520 --> 00:30:03.350
case with boys to be honest.
00:30:03.360 --> 00:30:05.590
>> I think we don't need to ask boys how
00:30:05.600 --> 00:30:07.669
are you feeling all the time. We can
00:30:07.679 --> 00:30:08.789
just let them be boys.
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:09.269
>> Y
00:30:09.279 --> 00:30:11.269
>> I actually quite like observing my son
00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:12.870
and being there in the moment with him
00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:15.510
and sometimes having those silences
00:30:15.520 --> 00:30:17.190
where we're just sitting together or
00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:19.029
doing different things together. He
00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:20.630
might be reading. I might be working or
00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:22.710
doing focused on chores.
00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:25.990
So whereas that might be more meaningful
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:28.230
for girls and young women, it might be a
00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:30.389
question that prompts deeper
00:30:30.399 --> 00:30:33.590
perspectives and sharing and starts a a
00:30:33.600 --> 00:30:35.350
beautiful colorful conversation with
00:30:35.360 --> 00:30:35.750
them.
00:30:35.760 --> 00:30:37.269
>> Yeah. I don't know. I think it's a human
00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:39.750
thing. I mean, my granddaughter, you
00:30:39.760 --> 00:30:41.590
know, she's clearly a girl and I
00:30:41.600 --> 00:30:42.870
wouldn't ask her how she was feeling
00:30:42.880 --> 00:30:44.389
about anything cuz she's just telling me
00:30:44.399 --> 00:30:45.590
all the time. you know, she's
00:30:45.600 --> 00:30:47.909
demonstrating how she's feeling not
00:30:47.919 --> 00:30:50.310
>> necessarily through words, but certainly
00:30:50.320 --> 00:30:53.269
through actions and expressions.
00:30:53.279 --> 00:30:54.870
>> It makes me think about Tom Golden,
00:30:54.880 --> 00:30:57.029
though, who's a therapist with 40 years
00:30:57.039 --> 00:30:58.870
of experience, and he's written a book
00:30:58.880 --> 00:31:00.789
specifically about the way that men
00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:04.630
heal, and he talks about that the
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:06.149
positive
00:31:06.159 --> 00:31:09.750
uh activities and the building things.
00:31:09.760 --> 00:31:11.669
For example, he gives this example of
00:31:11.679 --> 00:31:13.750
instead of a talking therapy with a man,
00:31:13.760 --> 00:31:15.269
he might take himself to the workshop
00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:16.870
and build a beautiful chair to remember
00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:19.350
a person who he's lost. And that could
00:31:19.360 --> 00:31:21.909
be a much more positive, wholesome,
00:31:21.919 --> 00:31:24.870
constructive response than being asked
00:31:24.880 --> 00:31:27.430
to discuss it or to share how he feels
00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:29.750
or thinks about that situation. And and
00:31:29.760 --> 00:31:31.990
I guess I agree my daughter is quite
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:34.230
expressive as well. I don't necessarily
00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:35.590
need to ask her
00:31:35.600 --> 00:31:37.029
>> how she's feeling or what emotion she
00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:39.909
has, but but there I get a sense that
00:31:39.919 --> 00:31:41.190
there can be different conversations
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:43.990
that elicit useful material.
00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:45.750
>> Well, I mean, I've got two boys and a
00:31:45.760 --> 00:31:48.710
girl, and my boys are much more vocal,
00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:50.389
expressive, and emotional than my
00:31:50.399 --> 00:31:52.549
daughter. Much, much more.
00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:54.710
>> Um, I'm actually working with a boy at
00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:56.549
the moment who's experiencing grief. And
00:31:56.559 --> 00:31:59.110
you know, he's he's a he's a young teen.
00:31:59.120 --> 00:32:01.750
And um and we was we were in session the
00:32:01.760 --> 00:32:03.830
other day and he's not very vocal at
00:32:03.840 --> 00:32:05.830
all. In fact, he doesn't say anything.
00:32:05.840 --> 00:32:08.149
And we I was speaking to him about, you
00:32:08.159 --> 00:32:09.830
know, how how he felt sitting in the
00:32:09.840 --> 00:32:11.430
session and if he felt comfortable. And
00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:13.190
he was completely comfortable. And I
00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:14.149
said, "Do you want to finish the
00:32:14.159 --> 00:32:16.389
session?" He said, "No, no, I'm just
00:32:16.399 --> 00:32:18.070
really happy just sitting in here in
00:32:18.080 --> 00:32:19.350
silence."
00:32:19.360 --> 00:32:21.190
>> And that's that's good for me. I'm I'm
00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:23.110
very comfortable sitting in silence with
00:32:23.120 --> 00:32:25.990
people because it's not our job to
00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:29.029
provide answers to fix to have advice.
00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:31.669
It's our job to create space for people
00:32:31.679 --> 00:32:33.669
and if his space is silence and that's
00:32:33.679 --> 00:32:35.990
where he feels comfortable and supported
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:38.549
well I'm doing that.
00:32:38.559 --> 00:32:41.190
>> My sense of some of the therapies
00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:43.430
psychology and some of the services that
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:46.230
are delivered is that the framing might
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:49.590
have come from a female perspective.
00:32:49.600 --> 00:32:51.190
Certainly I've heard a lot of fe
00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:54.149
feedback about the psychology discipline
00:32:54.159 --> 00:32:56.230
and how that has been shaped in the last
00:32:56.240 --> 00:32:58.789
few decades and if you look at the
00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:00.950
percentage in terms of male female
00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:02.870
that's about 80% female at the moment
00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:04.630
coming out of universities the
00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:07.430
psychology and that doesn't necessarily
00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:09.990
have the empathy and acceptance of male
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:14.230
ways of communicating of responding of
00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:16.870
engaging of dealing with material in
00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:19.590
their lives and I think there's probably
00:33:19.600 --> 00:33:21.590
a more balanced way of honoring the
00:33:21.600 --> 00:33:22.630
whole range
00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:26.310
>> of people and that most likely depends
00:33:26.320 --> 00:33:29.269
on some reasonable representation within
00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:29.909
the discipline.
00:33:29.919 --> 00:33:31.110
>> Well, that's right. You could say the
00:33:31.120 --> 00:33:33.590
same about education and health as well.
00:33:33.600 --> 00:33:35.909
It's it's very very similar in the lack
00:33:35.919 --> 00:33:39.190
of representation of of men and how we
00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:41.029
need both. You know, we we need that
00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:43.029
mix. We need options. We need all kinds
00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:46.389
of things. So uh if we can you know I
00:33:46.399 --> 00:33:48.230
think there's definite reasons why men
00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:50.149
won't engage in those professions
00:33:50.159 --> 00:33:52.789
particularly in the current climate
00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:54.870
makes them very vulnerable for all kinds
00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:57.350
of reasons um that they're either not
00:33:57.360 --> 00:33:58.870
going into it or they're leaving it.
00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:00.310
>> I'll give you one personal example and
00:34:00.320 --> 00:34:02.149
it goes back to my experience with
00:34:02.159 --> 00:34:04.630
Shield Bicycle Club. So, I was a dad
00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:07.430
with one and then two children. And I
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:08.790
found some of the best conversations
00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:11.270
were out on the bike with my male bike
00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:13.750
club colleagues. When we were going down
00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:15.909
to the national park and we had an hour
00:34:15.919 --> 00:34:18.710
and a half out there in nature um just
00:34:18.720 --> 00:34:20.069
looking down at the road at the line in
00:34:20.079 --> 00:34:21.510
front of us, we weren't looking at each
00:34:21.520 --> 00:34:23.990
other and that was key. We weren't
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:25.669
eyeballing each other. It wasn't
00:34:25.679 --> 00:34:27.909
intimidating. There was no judgment. I
00:34:27.919 --> 00:34:29.750
was chatting with another dad with a
00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:33.349
young kid just sharing openly about the
00:34:33.359 --> 00:34:34.950
joys but particularly about the
00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:37.829
challenges of having young children. M
00:34:37.839 --> 00:34:43.589
>> and I felt more support and more of a
00:34:43.599 --> 00:34:47.030
emotional embrace in those conversations
00:34:47.040 --> 00:34:49.109
than I ever did in a mom or dad's group
00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:51.669
or a a session where we had health
00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:53.829
professionals or we had family or or
00:34:53.839 --> 00:34:58.630
friends because it felt like a more
00:34:58.640 --> 00:35:02.470
meaningful and um
00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:05.190
safe, vulnerable uh conversation where
00:35:05.200 --> 00:35:07.030
we were both being heard and we were
00:35:07.040 --> 00:35:09.430
both open to share literally whatever we
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:10.710
wanted to share.
00:35:10.720 --> 00:35:12.710
>> And we knew that it was just about being
00:35:12.720 --> 00:35:14.310
there for each other and supporting each
00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:16.790
other. And we weren't being paid by any
00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:19.750
government funding or any nonprofit or
00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:22.310
any structured program. It was purely
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:24.950
spontaneous. It was absolutely informal.
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:26.390
It was just about humanity and
00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:27.190
connection.
00:35:27.200 --> 00:35:28.710
>> I think there's a lot to be said about
00:35:28.720 --> 00:35:30.550
moving forward. You know, having
00:35:30.560 --> 00:35:32.630
conversations in cars is the same thing.
00:35:32.640 --> 00:35:34.630
You're literally driving forward. you're
00:35:34.640 --> 00:35:36.230
not facing each other, but there's it's
00:35:36.240 --> 00:35:38.870
it's a it's a safe space.
00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:41.510
>> But um talking about boys, when you
00:35:41.520 --> 00:35:43.670
think about yourself as a boy, you know,
00:35:43.680 --> 00:35:46.630
you grew up in Adelaide um and then you
00:35:46.640 --> 00:35:48.790
look at boys growing up now, what feels
00:35:48.800 --> 00:35:52.150
most different to you in comparison?
00:35:52.160 --> 00:35:53.750
>> There's a lot more choice there and
00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:56.390
distractions from digital devices. And
00:35:56.400 --> 00:35:56.550
um
00:35:56.560 --> 00:35:58.470
>> when you say more choice,
00:35:58.480 --> 00:36:00.710
>> well, if you think about the number of
00:36:00.720 --> 00:36:03.270
um television stations, you know, there
00:36:03.280 --> 00:36:03.589
were
00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:05.829
>> Oh, okay. I not more choice, less
00:36:05.839 --> 00:36:06.550
choice.
00:36:06.560 --> 00:36:07.990
>> Yeah. Yeah. When I was growing up, there
00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:09.589
was a lot less choice.
00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:11.190
>> There there were four TV stations and
00:36:11.200 --> 00:36:13.910
then five and then uh then um
00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:17.670
multiccasting and internet and VHS to on
00:36:17.680 --> 00:36:19.349
demand and streaming
00:36:19.359 --> 00:36:22.470
>> um in the sense of being overloaded.
00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:25.349
the life as a boy or a girl growing up
00:36:25.359 --> 00:36:27.589
in Adelaide at that time. It was
00:36:27.599 --> 00:36:31.349
simpler. There were it the our
00:36:31.359 --> 00:36:32.870
perception was there were fewer things
00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:35.990
to choose from and there were um some
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:38.390
expectations around you know boys are
00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:40.390
playing cricket in summer and one coat
00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:44.230
of footy in winter and um life was
00:36:44.240 --> 00:36:47.829
simpler and less confusing. Um there was
00:36:47.839 --> 00:36:50.950
less criticism and deconstruction. There
00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:53.750
was more of an embrace of
00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:58.310
the healthiness of that limited set of
00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:03.430
options and not so much uh
00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:05.109
self-criticism
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:07.990
of uh the introspection of trying to
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:12.390
pick apart what's going on.
00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:15.109
So do you think you talk about choices,
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:17.910
less choices probably is less
00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:21.990
overwhelming and more more contained?
00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:24.150
But I think about those times as well
00:37:24.160 --> 00:37:25.670
and
00:37:25.680 --> 00:37:28.870
my my view is is very sim similar in
00:37:28.880 --> 00:37:30.790
that you know there weren't as many
00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:34.310
choices but safety was also another
00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:36.790
thing as well that we you know we didn't
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:40.630
have these sophisticated channels of um
00:37:40.640 --> 00:37:44.630
observation of of kids in particular and
00:37:44.640 --> 00:37:47.109
particularly how we kept boys safe. You
00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:49.109
know, we look at this golden age of
00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:50.710
childhood of, you know, riding your
00:37:50.720 --> 00:37:52.710
bikes, you know, until the lights came,
00:37:52.720 --> 00:37:54.790
the street lights came on and playing
00:37:54.800 --> 00:37:56.310
cricket up and down the road and going
00:37:56.320 --> 00:37:58.390
to your neighbors and but, you know, I
00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:01.030
deal with so many men who were now, you
00:38:01.040 --> 00:38:02.390
know, at that age where they're
00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:04.790
disclosing how they were harmed during
00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:06.150
those times where there was no
00:38:06.160 --> 00:38:09.589
supervision. Um, and I think that's kind
00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:12.150
of the other side of it as well. Perhaps
00:38:12.160 --> 00:38:15.109
we are overly solicitous these days and
00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:17.589
we cotton and bully our kids too much.
00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:19.349
Um, but I think back then I don't think
00:38:19.359 --> 00:38:21.829
we should be fooled by the fact that
00:38:21.839 --> 00:38:24.550
they weren't necessarily golden ages of
00:38:24.560 --> 00:38:27.030
childhood. Um, because there was a lot
00:38:27.040 --> 00:38:28.550
that really really slipped under the
00:38:28.560 --> 00:38:31.109
cracks for for you know boys and girls.
00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:32.790
I mean I was one of those girls that was
00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:35.190
harmed very deeply as a child and you
00:38:35.200 --> 00:38:38.390
know that was not ever um supervised or
00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:42.630
um acknowledged either. M and
00:38:42.640 --> 00:38:45.589
every age has had harm to children and
00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:49.990
to to uh adults and I agree there's
00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:54.069
there's no perfect ideal idealized uh
00:38:54.079 --> 00:38:57.349
error. There are trade-offs. Um we have
00:38:57.359 --> 00:38:59.270
exposed children in in the most recent
00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:01.829
generation to harm from digital devices
00:39:01.839 --> 00:39:04.470
and algorithms and addiction and mental
00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:05.829
health presentation which is
00:39:05.839 --> 00:39:06.870
extraordinary.
00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:07.109
>> Yeah. Yeah,
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:10.310
>> the rise particularly in girls in uh
00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:13.829
depression, anxiety is extraordinary.
00:39:13.839 --> 00:39:15.670
>> ADHD
00:39:15.680 --> 00:39:18.390
who does not have ADHD at the moment
00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:21.349
>> and some of the overreach in terms of
00:39:21.359 --> 00:39:24.470
safety and a focus on aspects of
00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:26.870
physical safety has actually taken away
00:39:26.880 --> 00:39:28.710
from healthy development of children as
00:39:28.720 --> 00:39:31.030
well. And you know, I mentioned that
00:39:31.040 --> 00:39:33.670
playground in Boxill Gardens that I
00:39:33.680 --> 00:39:35.829
walked past this morning. The the weird
00:39:35.839 --> 00:39:37.510
thing is that I was there early enough
00:39:37.520 --> 00:39:38.550
there were no children on that
00:39:38.560 --> 00:39:39.349
playground.
00:39:39.359 --> 00:39:41.030
>> But if my children had been there, they
00:39:41.040 --> 00:39:42.470
would have run up and found their
00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:44.230
favorite pieces of equipment, which have
00:39:44.240 --> 00:39:46.710
changed since 2 years ago and
00:39:46.720 --> 00:39:48.470
>> um since they were small,
00:39:48.480 --> 00:39:51.910
>> but they have a natural um way of
00:39:51.920 --> 00:39:55.030
navigating risk and looking for the next
00:39:55.040 --> 00:40:00.630
steps of growth and development. And by
00:40:00.640 --> 00:40:04.470
um limiting or disincentivizing some of
00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:06.870
those um life experiences, I think we've
00:40:06.880 --> 00:40:10.790
taken away from an essence of childhood.
00:40:10.800 --> 00:40:13.670
>> Yeah, I think well do you think that has
00:40:13.680 --> 00:40:15.829
to do with parenting as well?
00:40:15.839 --> 00:40:17.829
>> Parenting and also the formal compliance
00:40:17.839 --> 00:40:21.109
and and with legal u being sued around
00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:23.109
um safety councils ripping out
00:40:23.119 --> 00:40:25.349
particular pieces of equipment. There
00:40:25.359 --> 00:40:26.790
was something you said earlier in the
00:40:26.800 --> 00:40:30.310
show and it led me to think about how
00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:32.790
you were talking about you and Jen's way
00:40:32.800 --> 00:40:35.349
that you've designed your family and how
00:40:35.359 --> 00:40:36.710
you've sort of thought way into the
00:40:36.720 --> 00:40:38.310
future about, you know, what the
00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:39.829
objectives are, what your parenting
00:40:39.839 --> 00:40:42.470
parenting objectives are. How many
00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:44.710
people do you think sort of go into a
00:40:44.720 --> 00:40:47.510
relationship that really design that
00:40:47.520 --> 00:40:50.069
intentionally how their family is going
00:40:50.079 --> 00:40:51.829
to be or how they're going to raise
00:40:51.839 --> 00:40:54.470
their family with intention?
00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:57.030
Some couples do intentionally, but life
00:40:57.040 --> 00:41:01.510
has a way of overtaking and your your
00:41:01.520 --> 00:41:03.910
children are quite unique. For example,
00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:05.589
my sister-in-law has five children and
00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:07.430
they're all beautifully different to
00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:09.990
each other and the circumstances that
00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:12.710
you face as a family and as a couple are
00:41:12.720 --> 00:41:14.550
really unpredictable.
00:41:14.560 --> 00:41:17.750
So the best play plans can easily be
00:41:17.760 --> 00:41:22.870
unpick pack unpicked and uh defeated by
00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:25.750
life circumstances. But I think the fact
00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:28.309
that we had thought and talked and had
00:41:28.319 --> 00:41:30.630
an idea helped the you know that
00:41:30.640 --> 00:41:32.309
discipline planning helped us to think
00:41:32.319 --> 00:41:33.109
through.
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:35.190
>> But even you know your views on things
00:41:35.200 --> 00:41:37.829
around you know how you know are we
00:41:37.839 --> 00:41:40.470
going to buy our kids lots of toys or
00:41:40.480 --> 00:41:41.990
are we going to just show them
00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:44.150
adventure? Are we going to travel with
00:41:44.160 --> 00:41:45.910
them? Are we going to, you know, what
00:41:45.920 --> 00:41:47.670
what are the things that we want to show
00:41:47.680 --> 00:41:50.710
our children as as they're growing up?
00:41:50.720 --> 00:41:53.270
Um or, you know, there might be some
00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:55.910
attitudes that education is vital. So,
00:41:55.920 --> 00:41:58.309
we're just going to focus on, you know,
00:41:58.319 --> 00:42:00.069
putting them into really good education
00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:02.069
and getting really good jobs that we can
00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:03.829
pay for private schools. You know,
00:42:03.839 --> 00:42:05.109
there's lots of different ways that
00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:07.030
people can think about planning for
00:42:07.040 --> 00:42:11.030
raising other people, but I don't know
00:42:11.040 --> 00:42:12.790
how
00:42:12.800 --> 00:42:14.790
deep people go in conversations before
00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:16.790
they start a family or even you know
00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:18.069
getting together in the in a
00:42:18.079 --> 00:42:20.150
relationship. Is this the partner that I
00:42:20.160 --> 00:42:23.190
want to spend my life with building a
00:42:23.200 --> 00:42:26.550
family? You only have to look at um and
00:42:26.560 --> 00:42:28.470
talk about that later about you know
00:42:28.480 --> 00:42:31.190
family law here in Australia and how
00:42:31.200 --> 00:42:34.470
kids are often alienated from parents.
00:42:34.480 --> 00:42:36.550
You know is that does that discussion
00:42:36.560 --> 00:42:38.710
ever happen around if we break up how
00:42:38.720 --> 00:42:40.710
are we going to do that?
00:42:40.720 --> 00:42:45.990
Yeah, my sense is it's not and that that
00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:49.270
across almost all the parents I know the
00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:50.870
the education and health of their
00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:53.030
children is so important. It's so
00:42:53.040 --> 00:42:56.630
primary and they'd be willing to devote
00:42:56.640 --> 00:42:59.589
resources and give up other things to uh
00:42:59.599 --> 00:43:01.349
give their kids that opportunity. But
00:43:01.359 --> 00:43:02.950
I'll give you an example of how life got
00:43:02.960 --> 00:43:04.710
in the way for us. One of my best
00:43:04.720 --> 00:43:06.470
friends, he and his wife take their kids
00:43:06.480 --> 00:43:08.309
to a different country each year, which
00:43:08.319 --> 00:43:10.150
I think is wonderful in terms of culture
00:43:10.160 --> 00:43:12.230
and language and history and seeing
00:43:12.240 --> 00:43:14.230
things firsthand. Their kids are
00:43:14.240 --> 00:43:16.390
incredibly fortunate
00:43:16.400 --> 00:43:19.670
>> to have that perspective and we had
00:43:19.680 --> 00:43:22.390
wanted to do interstate travel and to,
00:43:22.400 --> 00:43:24.230
you know, meet family and spend time
00:43:24.240 --> 00:43:26.470
around different parts of Australia.
00:43:26.480 --> 00:43:28.390
Unfortunately, those bookings were made
00:43:28.400 --> 00:43:32.790
in late 2019 and early 2020 and ended up
00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:35.109
being uh knocked on the head by co
00:43:35.119 --> 00:43:37.109
>> was just stay at home.
00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:38.550
>> So, we had some vouchers there, some
00:43:38.560 --> 00:43:40.550
credit that couldn't be used for a very
00:43:40.560 --> 00:43:41.910
long period of time and eventually we
00:43:41.920 --> 00:43:43.750
chose to use it on something completely
00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:44.069
different.
00:43:44.079 --> 00:43:47.190
>> Yeah. And I guess there's something to
00:43:47.200 --> 00:43:49.190
be said for
00:43:49.200 --> 00:43:51.430
taking the leap of faith
00:43:51.440 --> 00:43:57.430
>> and um having uh lifelong commitment and
00:43:57.440 --> 00:44:01.030
uh love that is deeper than pure
00:44:01.040 --> 00:44:04.710
short-term emotion. Um,
00:44:04.720 --> 00:44:06.870
you know, the strength of the Christian
00:44:06.880 --> 00:44:09.270
covenant of marriage is that it binds
00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:11.990
together a man and a woman, a mother and
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:14.870
a father with the anticipation of of a
00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:16.790
lifelong union.
00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:18.390
>> And that's a very powerful foundation
00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:19.910
for children.
00:44:19.920 --> 00:44:22.390
>> It's a certainty. It's a stability. And
00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:25.910
certainly both my grandparents and Jen's
00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:28.950
grandparents entered the covenant of
00:44:28.960 --> 00:44:30.550
marriage with that expectation and with
00:44:30.560 --> 00:44:32.550
that commitment to each other. It wasn't
00:44:32.560 --> 00:44:35.030
that because things got tough on one
00:44:35.040 --> 00:44:37.829
particular day or one season of life
00:44:37.839 --> 00:44:39.750
that you know they suddenly looked for
00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:42.710
other options. Their families knew that
00:44:42.720 --> 00:44:45.030
that was permanent that it was binding.
00:44:45.040 --> 00:44:45.589
>> Yeah.
00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:49.829
>> And there's a a strong psychological
00:44:49.839 --> 00:44:51.670
insurance policy that's given to
00:44:51.680 --> 00:44:53.510
children. They benefit from that.
00:44:53.520 --> 00:44:55.910
>> They're the beneficiaries of that
00:44:55.920 --> 00:44:57.510
metaphorical insurance policy.
00:44:57.520 --> 00:44:59.030
>> But I guess the the choice in the
00:44:59.040 --> 00:45:01.109
beginning has to also be the right
00:45:01.119 --> 00:45:02.630
choice. And then if you've grown up, you
00:45:02.640 --> 00:45:04.710
know, it's that whole cycle of, you
00:45:04.720 --> 00:45:06.790
know, generational harm where, you know,
00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:08.550
you you only know what you've what
00:45:08.560 --> 00:45:10.309
you've seen. So, how you choose a
00:45:10.319 --> 00:45:12.630
partner. Um, you know, you go back to
00:45:12.640 --> 00:45:14.309
the days, you know, be before the
00:45:14.319 --> 00:45:16.630
feminist movement where women to be safe
00:45:16.640 --> 00:45:19.190
to move out of, you know, a a terrible
00:45:19.200 --> 00:45:22.710
household got married to leave. They're
00:45:22.720 --> 00:45:24.309
not necessarily thinking about what's
00:45:24.319 --> 00:45:26.710
going to make a good partner.
00:45:26.720 --> 00:45:29.349
and particular
00:45:29.359 --> 00:45:33.349
stories and examples have been over
00:45:33.359 --> 00:45:37.829
overly amplified because they speak to
00:45:37.839 --> 00:45:40.309
protecting females because they speak to
00:45:40.319 --> 00:45:40.790
the same
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:42.550
>> I guess that was just an example. I mean
00:45:42.560 --> 00:45:45.109
I could reverse that as well and you you
00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:46.630
use that for male I'm talking about
00:45:46.640 --> 00:45:48.390
people. I'm not necessarily talking
00:45:48.400 --> 00:45:50.630
about gender here, but people get into
00:45:50.640 --> 00:45:52.470
relationships for all different kinds of
00:45:52.480 --> 00:45:54.790
reasons. And sometimes it is a feeling
00:45:54.800 --> 00:45:56.630
that their life is going to be better or
00:45:56.640 --> 00:45:59.270
safer or different, not necessarily
00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:01.349
looking at the long game of is this the
00:46:01.359 --> 00:46:02.470
person for me.
00:46:02.480 --> 00:46:04.150
>> I wrote a book recently that had a big
00:46:04.160 --> 00:46:05.829
impact on me. It was about about
00:46:05.839 --> 00:46:07.990
marriage from a Christian perspective.
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:11.990
And the proposition or the the assertion
00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:15.270
was that perhaps marriage isn't about
00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:18.309
making us happy. Perhaps it's about a
00:46:18.319 --> 00:46:20.470
journey of deeper levels of
00:46:20.480 --> 00:46:21.990
understanding of yourself, about
00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:24.950
engaging with another person, about the
00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:26.630
commitment and the benefit that comes to
00:46:26.640 --> 00:46:29.190
your life and other people's lives from
00:46:29.200 --> 00:46:31.829
that long-term
00:46:31.839 --> 00:46:35.430
un inolvable commitment to each other.
00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:37.270
And this comes back to my response to
00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:39.109
your question.
00:46:39.119 --> 00:46:42.470
Maybe we've overemphasized the fleeting
00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:46.309
emotions and feelings of now and maybe
00:46:46.319 --> 00:46:49.589
we put too much response and action
00:46:49.599 --> 00:46:52.230
around those and because they are
00:46:52.240 --> 00:46:53.910
temporary and because they are ephemeral
00:46:53.920 --> 00:46:55.829
and because we can't rely on them we
00:46:55.839 --> 00:46:57.910
can't even rely on them as being an
00:46:57.920 --> 00:46:59.430
unbiased indicator of what we should do
00:46:59.440 --> 00:47:00.870
with our lives.
00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:02.470
>> So perhaps we shouldn't make
00:47:02.480 --> 00:47:05.829
lifechanging decisions that impact
00:47:05.839 --> 00:47:07.829
children, extended families and so on.
00:47:07.839 --> 00:47:10.550
One of the things I quote in my book
00:47:10.560 --> 00:47:13.910
about 12 years ago, there was a um
00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:15.349
report from the center for social
00:47:15.359 --> 00:47:18.230
justice which mentioned a statistic that
00:47:18.240 --> 00:47:21.910
1 million grandparents in the UK had
00:47:21.920 --> 00:47:24.550
been separated or alienated from their
00:47:24.560 --> 00:47:27.109
grandchildren which is a huge tragedy of
00:47:27.119 --> 00:47:30.309
societal level consequence
00:47:30.319 --> 00:47:33.349
and that flows from separation and child
00:47:33.359 --> 00:47:36.390
custody and family law. It's a huge
00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:38.790
tragedy. because that's part of the
00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:41.190
village. Those children have a
00:47:41.200 --> 00:47:43.670
fundamental human right to have their
00:47:43.680 --> 00:47:45.750
grandparents involved in their lives.
00:47:45.760 --> 00:47:47.990
They're biologically related.
00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:49.510
>> They deserve to have contact.
00:47:49.520 --> 00:47:51.030
>> Not to mention aunts and uncles and the
00:47:51.040 --> 00:47:52.710
whole the whole family village. But I
00:47:52.720 --> 00:47:54.950
mean that's a whole another rabbit hole
00:47:54.960 --> 00:47:57.510
to go down. But but it's a very real one
00:47:57.520 --> 00:48:00.309
as well. You know probably 95% of my
00:48:00.319 --> 00:48:02.470
private practice is men who are
00:48:02.480 --> 00:48:04.309
currently being alienated from their
00:48:04.319 --> 00:48:07.349
children. Um, and you can see, you know,
00:48:07.359 --> 00:48:08.790
that's where the grandparents will
00:48:08.800 --> 00:48:09.990
become involved as well. The
00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:13.910
grandparents who are also um alienated
00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:15.829
through that process. It's it's it's
00:48:15.839 --> 00:48:18.470
horrific. And you know who it impacts
00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:20.069
the most. And for the longest, it's the
00:48:20.079 --> 00:48:22.150
kids because they have to, you know,
00:48:22.160 --> 00:48:23.829
spend the rest of their lives trying to
00:48:23.839 --> 00:48:26.069
navigate through what happened when they
00:48:26.079 --> 00:48:27.589
had no choice.
00:48:27.599 --> 00:48:30.390
>> Um, but anyway, let's we could spend the
00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:32.230
rest of the show on that. Um, and I'm
00:48:32.240 --> 00:48:36.470
sure our listeners are going, "Move on.
00:48:36.480 --> 00:48:38.309
So, but we're talking about the book.
00:48:38.319 --> 00:48:40.630
We're on to the book, The Rel Relentless
00:48:40.640 --> 00:48:43.109
War and Masculinity. What was happening
00:48:43.119 --> 00:48:44.950
personally or culturally that made you
00:48:44.960 --> 00:48:46.870
feel this was the right time to put your
00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:48.950
thoughts into a book?
00:48:48.960 --> 00:48:51.670
>> So, I'm a passionate advocate for the
00:48:51.680 --> 00:48:54.390
education of boys and young men. For 30
00:48:54.400 --> 00:48:55.990
years, I've been following and
00:48:56.000 --> 00:48:57.030
interested in that, gathering
00:48:57.040 --> 00:48:59.829
statistics. And so I've been I've been
00:48:59.839 --> 00:49:02.069
tracking that for a long time, looking
00:49:02.079 --> 00:49:03.750
at the outcomes for boys in school,
00:49:03.760 --> 00:49:06.710
looking at the uh proportions of males
00:49:06.720 --> 00:49:08.150
and females in university and the types
00:49:08.160 --> 00:49:10.630
of courses that they're choosing. And it
00:49:10.640 --> 00:49:12.230
was crystallized when when my kids were
00:49:12.240 --> 00:49:14.870
born seven or eight years ago. But
00:49:14.880 --> 00:49:18.230
particularly what moved me to feel an
00:49:18.240 --> 00:49:21.510
urgency for writing the book was the
00:49:21.520 --> 00:49:24.549
change in the debates and discussions
00:49:24.559 --> 00:49:27.349
around the US election.
00:49:27.359 --> 00:49:30.549
because you had a situation where if you
00:49:30.559 --> 00:49:33.670
think back before the 2024 presidential
00:49:33.680 --> 00:49:35.349
election,
00:49:35.359 --> 00:49:38.790
the Democrats realized that they had a
00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:41.910
serious uh weakness in terms of not
00:49:41.920 --> 00:49:44.150
appealing to males
00:49:44.160 --> 00:49:46.230
and they put out this comical this
00:49:46.240 --> 00:49:48.950
farical advertisement in the end which
00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:51.349
was rightly mocked on the day that it
00:49:51.359 --> 00:49:53.990
was released. And it was clear during
00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:55.990
those election results that there had
00:49:56.000 --> 00:49:58.950
been a big swing of young men of men of
00:49:58.960 --> 00:50:01.430
most ages and including young women from
00:50:01.440 --> 00:50:05.750
Democrat to Republican. And I'd been
00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:08.230
listening watching influences from North
00:50:08.240 --> 00:50:10.150
America. I'd been quite curious about
00:50:10.160 --> 00:50:12.710
what was happening there about the um
00:50:12.720 --> 00:50:14.870
polarization and fragmentation in Gen
00:50:14.880 --> 00:50:17.829
Zed about young women shifting left,
00:50:17.839 --> 00:50:20.150
young men slightly shifting right or
00:50:20.160 --> 00:50:21.750
conservative.
00:50:21.760 --> 00:50:23.829
And what I sensed and what I picked up
00:50:23.839 --> 00:50:25.589
was that
00:50:25.599 --> 00:50:28.790
that election and the subsequent changes
00:50:28.800 --> 00:50:31.270
in policy and culture,
00:50:31.280 --> 00:50:33.270
I guessed that they would flow to
00:50:33.280 --> 00:50:35.990
Canada, UK and Australia because of how
00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:38.630
important the US is in in media and
00:50:38.640 --> 00:50:41.589
entertainment and uh also the creation
00:50:41.599 --> 00:50:43.430
of digital content. Now think about
00:50:43.440 --> 00:50:46.710
young people. They're not connected into
00:50:46.720 --> 00:50:48.710
mainstream media. They're not buying
00:50:48.720 --> 00:50:52.150
newspapers or watching television news.
00:50:52.160 --> 00:50:54.230
They're mostly sourcing their
00:50:54.240 --> 00:50:57.349
information from their phones and that's
00:50:57.359 --> 00:50:59.990
a completely permeable border. There's
00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:02.230
no border that stops at Australia and
00:51:02.240 --> 00:51:04.630
starts at whatever other country you're
00:51:04.640 --> 00:51:06.790
thinking about. So the content creators
00:51:06.800 --> 00:51:09.270
and the algorithms that are you know
00:51:09.280 --> 00:51:11.349
presenting them with with information of
00:51:11.359 --> 00:51:12.870
various quality dubious quality
00:51:12.880 --> 00:51:16.069
sometimes that transcends borders and
00:51:16.079 --> 00:51:21.030
boundaries and there's a real lack of
00:51:21.040 --> 00:51:22.710
influencers
00:51:22.720 --> 00:51:25.349
um in Australia who speak positively
00:51:25.359 --> 00:51:28.710
about males and masculinity. But in
00:51:28.720 --> 00:51:30.950
North America for example, there are
00:51:30.960 --> 00:51:34.390
many young women who at that time 12,
00:51:34.400 --> 00:51:37.990
18, 24 months ago had positive messages,
00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:41.430
encouraging messages, um messages of
00:51:41.440 --> 00:51:45.030
seeing positive virtue in young men, of
00:51:45.040 --> 00:51:47.270
um speaking to those audiences, of
00:51:47.280 --> 00:51:50.630
vocalizing the thoughts and feelings of
00:51:50.640 --> 00:51:53.829
boys and teenagers and young men. And my
00:51:53.839 --> 00:51:57.670
guess was that um that would be a wave
00:51:57.680 --> 00:51:59.990
and I wanted to quickly get onto that
00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:01.510
movement
00:52:01.520 --> 00:52:03.990
because the conversations I was having
00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:07.349
in Australia 2 or 3 years ago, people
00:52:07.359 --> 00:52:09.030
were sharing honestly about their
00:52:09.040 --> 00:52:11.510
concerns for their their sons and for
00:52:11.520 --> 00:52:14.790
young men and they were honestly
00:52:14.800 --> 00:52:17.670
expressing empathy, concern about
00:52:17.680 --> 00:52:19.510
education, health, wellbeing, suicide,
00:52:19.520 --> 00:52:21.990
all those things. But they felt so
00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:23.190
uncomfortable about saying that
00:52:23.200 --> 00:52:26.230
publicly. And so I sensed that there
00:52:26.240 --> 00:52:28.950
would be a movement towards this wave
00:52:28.960 --> 00:52:30.870
where people would feel emboldened
00:52:30.880 --> 00:52:32.549
actually to speak up to speak their
00:52:32.559 --> 00:52:35.190
truth. And I believe that's happened to
00:52:35.200 --> 00:52:37.349
an extent, but it's got a lot further to
00:52:37.359 --> 00:52:38.230
go.
00:52:38.240 --> 00:52:41.190
>> Oh, absolutely. I agree with you. I I
00:52:41.200 --> 00:52:43.750
could even go, you know, further back
00:52:43.760 --> 00:52:47.670
and um you know, probably maybe 10 years
00:52:47.680 --> 00:52:49.829
ago and see where we were at in terms of
00:52:49.839 --> 00:52:52.230
being able to speak openly about some of
00:52:52.240 --> 00:52:55.030
the concerns around men and boys health
00:52:55.040 --> 00:52:57.109
where we are now. it has it's shifted
00:52:57.119 --> 00:52:59.030
dramatically and you know that's thanks
00:52:59.040 --> 00:53:01.270
to you know many organizations
00:53:01.280 --> 00:53:02.790
fortunately you know Movember have done
00:53:02.800 --> 00:53:04.950
a very good job from you know going from
00:53:04.960 --> 00:53:07.030
a you know just a charity that raises
00:53:07.040 --> 00:53:09.349
money in november
00:53:09.359 --> 00:53:12.150
in November
00:53:12.160 --> 00:53:14.870
>> to becoming more involved in you know
00:53:14.880 --> 00:53:19.270
policy making or um advocacy in a way
00:53:19.280 --> 00:53:20.950
that really really does include
00:53:20.960 --> 00:53:23.430
everybody in the conversation. I think
00:53:23.440 --> 00:53:25.430
it's a lot more palatable and and yet
00:53:25.440 --> 00:53:26.950
that shift into policy. I mean they have
00:53:26.960 --> 00:53:29.030
the money, they have the ear ears of
00:53:29.040 --> 00:53:32.150
many governments. Um so so why not? And
00:53:32.160 --> 00:53:33.750
I think that's really shifted the dial
00:53:33.760 --> 00:53:35.589
going from just go and have a beer with
00:53:35.599 --> 00:53:37.589
your mates and you'll be fine to
00:53:37.599 --> 00:53:40.309
actually really getting closer to well
00:53:40.319 --> 00:53:42.710
what systems do we need to put in place
00:53:42.720 --> 00:53:46.150
um to make things better for for men and
00:53:46.160 --> 00:53:47.190
boys.
00:53:47.200 --> 00:53:49.990
>> I'm not a universal um supporter of
00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:52.470
Movember. Uh, I think they've played it
00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:53.990
a very safe game.
00:53:54.000 --> 00:53:56.790
>> Oh, but it's it's evolution. It's as as
00:53:56.800 --> 00:53:58.950
we discussed on the phone or on Zoom
00:53:58.960 --> 00:54:00.710
that time, you know, they've gone from
00:54:00.720 --> 00:54:02.470
this charity where it was just a bunch
00:54:02.480 --> 00:54:03.910
of guys sort of getting together and
00:54:03.920 --> 00:54:05.750
growing a mo to where they are now.
00:54:05.760 --> 00:54:07.109
This, you know, it hasn't taken very
00:54:07.119 --> 00:54:09.829
long to get there. So, I'm again looking
00:54:09.839 --> 00:54:11.750
at the long the long term here and
00:54:11.760 --> 00:54:13.510
seeing what bricks they're putting in
00:54:13.520 --> 00:54:16.309
the wall very gradually. Um, you know, I
00:54:16.319 --> 00:54:17.910
think even their production of the real
00:54:17.920 --> 00:54:20.470
face of men's health in, you know, in
00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:22.390
all of their main markets being Canada,
00:54:22.400 --> 00:54:25.750
Ireland, New Zealand, Australia, the US,
00:54:25.760 --> 00:54:29.750
um, has really, really great pieces of
00:54:29.760 --> 00:54:31.670
work that start conversations very
00:54:31.680 --> 00:54:33.670
similar to your book. I mean, your book,
00:54:33.680 --> 00:54:35.109
you know, you could sit down and read it
00:54:35.119 --> 00:54:36.390
cover to cover and go, "Yeah, that was
00:54:36.400 --> 00:54:38.950
that was a good read." or what I like
00:54:38.960 --> 00:54:40.950
about it is it can be pulled apart as
00:54:40.960 --> 00:54:44.150
separate discussion points um for people
00:54:44.160 --> 00:54:46.230
to have about particular topics relating
00:54:46.240 --> 00:54:48.470
to men that also affect women and
00:54:48.480 --> 00:54:50.390
children. And I think that's what
00:54:50.400 --> 00:54:52.309
Movember is moving towards as well.
00:54:52.319 --> 00:54:54.230
these, you know, these publications or
00:54:54.240 --> 00:54:56.230
these papers that they've produced have,
00:54:56.240 --> 00:54:57.750
you know, pulled the world together,
00:54:57.760 --> 00:54:59.109
pulled all countries of the world
00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:01.990
together to collaborate and contribute
00:55:02.000 --> 00:55:05.750
to these to these um publications that
00:55:05.760 --> 00:55:09.430
are now causing conversations. So, love
00:55:09.440 --> 00:55:12.470
or hate Movember, who cares? If they can
00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:14.309
get the conversation going, if they can
00:55:14.319 --> 00:55:16.390
get governments to listen, I'm all for
00:55:16.400 --> 00:55:17.510
it.
00:55:17.520 --> 00:55:18.950
I'd like there to be broader
00:55:18.960 --> 00:55:20.630
conversations and a real reflection of
00:55:20.640 --> 00:55:23.990
the heterogeneity of all males because
00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:25.910
my sense is the issues that they've
00:55:25.920 --> 00:55:29.510
chosen to to focus on have been
00:55:29.520 --> 00:55:31.670
politically correct acceptable to
00:55:31.680 --> 00:55:37.109
feminists um have been mostly leftist or
00:55:37.119 --> 00:55:39.910
uh progressive extensions of progressive
00:55:39.920 --> 00:55:42.710
policy and that there's a much much
00:55:42.720 --> 00:55:44.790
bigger playing field here. I hear that
00:55:44.800 --> 00:55:47.030
in conversations with men and women
00:55:47.040 --> 00:55:49.270
>> and that um given that they're the best
00:55:49.280 --> 00:55:52.630
funded nonprofit and that they do aspire
00:55:52.640 --> 00:55:54.870
to a broader positive vision for men's
00:55:54.880 --> 00:55:57.109
health, there are many areas I believe
00:55:57.119 --> 00:55:58.950
that are unressed in their service
00:55:58.960 --> 00:56:01.190
delivery and their advocacy
00:56:01.200 --> 00:56:03.190
>> and I I agree with that. That's where
00:56:03.200 --> 00:56:05.750
they're at at the moment. But in terms
00:56:05.760 --> 00:56:08.230
of the the global collaboration and who
00:56:08.240 --> 00:56:09.270
they're bringing into those
00:56:09.280 --> 00:56:12.150
conversations for example they engage us
00:56:12.160 --> 00:56:14.150
at global action on men's health because
00:56:14.160 --> 00:56:16.150
there things that they don't know
00:56:16.160 --> 00:56:18.950
>> that we do you know they engage um you
00:56:18.960 --> 00:56:20.230
know especially what's happening in the
00:56:20.240 --> 00:56:22.390
UK at the moment with the men's health
00:56:22.400 --> 00:56:24.470
strategy that's you know that's that's
00:56:24.480 --> 00:56:26.549
now got legs and that's you know
00:56:26.559 --> 00:56:28.950
inspired Canada to do the same and you
00:56:28.960 --> 00:56:31.190
know those things are also going on at
00:56:31.200 --> 00:56:33.829
the same time which you know I think the
00:56:33.839 --> 00:56:35.349
men's health sector is just so
00:56:35.359 --> 00:56:37.750
incredibly fragmented not only here in
00:56:37.760 --> 00:56:40.309
Australia but globally. I think give it
00:56:40.319 --> 00:56:43.750
time. It has to be given time and I
00:56:43.760 --> 00:56:45.829
think that yeah I think Movember does
00:56:45.839 --> 00:56:48.470
play a role a significant role but not
00:56:48.480 --> 00:56:49.910
the only role. They're not the only
00:56:49.920 --> 00:56:51.430
player and I don't think that they think
00:56:51.440 --> 00:56:52.470
they are either.
00:56:52.480 --> 00:56:54.710
>> It's a good insight to hear from you and
00:56:54.720 --> 00:56:55.910
in Australia we can
00:56:55.920 --> 00:56:57.589
>> I'm not advocating for Movember. I'm
00:56:57.599 --> 00:57:00.069
just that's just how I see it. Well,
00:57:00.079 --> 00:57:01.270
it's really valuable that we can hear
00:57:01.280 --> 00:57:03.750
that from you that you've got that that
00:57:03.760 --> 00:57:05.589
position at the table at Global Action
00:57:05.599 --> 00:57:07.670
for Men's Health and that you're seeing
00:57:07.680 --> 00:57:09.430
that type of collaboration
00:57:09.440 --> 00:57:11.589
>> and I'm hopeful too. I'm optimistic and
00:57:11.599 --> 00:57:13.750
I'd like to see that expansion and I
00:57:13.760 --> 00:57:14.789
think actually there's a moral
00:57:14.799 --> 00:57:17.109
obligation on the board and the
00:57:17.119 --> 00:57:19.589
executive of November to expand the
00:57:19.599 --> 00:57:21.670
range of services and support
00:57:21.680 --> 00:57:26.069
>> because of um the clear um and measured
00:57:26.079 --> 00:57:28.309
need but also because of the
00:57:28.319 --> 00:57:30.630
extraordinarily positive social impact
00:57:30.640 --> 00:57:32.870
that would come from small investments
00:57:32.880 --> 00:57:35.190
in those areas. Whereas doubling down
00:57:35.200 --> 00:57:38.069
and tripling down and staying safe isn't
00:57:38.079 --> 00:57:40.069
going to have anywhere near the return
00:57:40.079 --> 00:57:43.670
socially that we could see from
00:57:43.680 --> 00:57:45.670
>> But in the current climate where you
00:57:45.680 --> 00:57:47.349
actually do need to get a seat at the
00:57:47.359 --> 00:57:49.750
table with the right people, you can't
00:57:49.760 --> 00:57:51.750
offend everybody to get there. Sometimes
00:57:51.760 --> 00:57:55.109
you just got to clear a smoothest path
00:57:55.119 --> 00:57:57.270
you can to get to where you need and
00:57:57.280 --> 00:57:59.109
then you do the work. Just to piss
00:57:59.119 --> 00:58:01.349
everybody off before you even get there,
00:58:01.359 --> 00:58:03.750
I I don't think would ever work. And I
00:58:03.760 --> 00:58:06.390
think that's why bringing women into the
00:58:06.400 --> 00:58:07.910
conversation
00:58:07.920 --> 00:58:10.390
has been a great move on many parts of
00:58:10.400 --> 00:58:12.710
the sector because number one, women
00:58:12.720 --> 00:58:14.470
have advocated for themselves
00:58:14.480 --> 00:58:16.470
extraordinarily well. I mean, you go
00:58:16.480 --> 00:58:18.789
back, you know, to the 60s, you know,
00:58:18.799 --> 00:58:21.349
and and before then when women just know
00:58:21.359 --> 00:58:23.109
how to advocate. They've done an
00:58:23.119 --> 00:58:27.030
incredible job. Why are men still men
00:58:27.040 --> 00:58:29.910
still haven't launched? What is missing?
00:58:29.920 --> 00:58:31.829
And I think if we can learn from what
00:58:31.839 --> 00:58:34.150
women have done and you know give men
00:58:34.160 --> 00:58:35.829
the confidence to be able to not do the
00:58:35.839 --> 00:58:38.069
same thing but you know what is it that
00:58:38.079 --> 00:58:40.950
men aren't doing for themselves that is
00:58:40.960 --> 00:58:43.349
not is not raising
00:58:43.359 --> 00:58:46.230
their their wellbeing. So firstly, I'd
00:58:46.240 --> 00:58:49.270
come back to the innate
00:58:49.280 --> 00:58:52.069
bias that I think all people give to
00:58:52.079 --> 00:58:54.390
uplifting and cherishing females,
00:58:54.400 --> 00:58:56.950
particularly around the future
00:58:56.960 --> 00:58:58.710
generation, around reproduction, around
00:58:58.720 --> 00:59:02.150
the the beautiful, unique, incredibly
00:59:02.160 --> 00:59:05.349
important aspect of um being a mother
00:59:05.359 --> 00:59:07.430
and raising children um and nurturing
00:59:07.440 --> 00:59:09.589
for the next generation. there. There's
00:59:09.599 --> 00:59:12.549
a lot to learn tactically that men need
00:59:12.559 --> 00:59:14.789
to understand that we've been completely
00:59:14.799 --> 00:59:16.390
outplayed
00:59:16.400 --> 00:59:19.910
that we've been focused too narrowly on
00:59:19.920 --> 00:59:23.829
our own interest that we haven't been um
00:59:23.839 --> 00:59:26.789
engaging enough uh collaborative enough.
00:59:26.799 --> 00:59:28.390
There are some differences in
00:59:28.400 --> 00:59:30.309
communication style and collaboration
00:59:30.319 --> 00:59:32.230
between males and females. typical
00:59:32.240 --> 00:59:33.670
clustering of
00:59:33.680 --> 00:59:34.630
>> differences.
00:59:34.640 --> 00:59:36.789
>> And we need to reflect on that because
00:59:36.799 --> 00:59:41.750
the particular forms of activism and um
00:59:41.760 --> 00:59:45.109
cooperation and uh successful lobbying
00:59:45.119 --> 00:59:47.190
for change, they're unlikely to be the
00:59:47.200 --> 00:59:50.870
same between males and females. And one
00:59:50.880 --> 00:59:53.990
of the areas that that shines through is
00:59:54.000 --> 00:59:55.750
in terms of the manosphere and how
00:59:55.760 --> 00:59:59.109
important online spaces are for males.
00:59:59.119 --> 01:00:01.910
If you recognize that men might be less
01:00:01.920 --> 01:00:04.230
likely to reach out face to face and
01:00:04.240 --> 01:00:06.069
feel intimidated, but also they might be
01:00:06.079 --> 01:00:10.710
more focused on work or um career or
01:00:10.720 --> 01:00:15.270
being uh in jobs that are ownorous. They
01:00:15.280 --> 01:00:18.069
don't have that chance to meet in person
01:00:18.079 --> 01:00:21.109
or to gather in groups or to turn up for
01:00:21.119 --> 01:00:22.630
protests and other things. That's that's
01:00:22.640 --> 01:00:24.150
partly why the manosphere has been so
01:00:24.160 --> 01:00:26.390
important because it's a way of tapping
01:00:26.400 --> 01:00:29.349
in geographically to other people with
01:00:29.359 --> 01:00:31.510
common interests, having support groups
01:00:31.520 --> 01:00:35.270
that don't rely on you turning up uh in
01:00:35.280 --> 01:00:37.510
person and being available for
01:00:37.520 --> 01:00:40.470
>> just relying on men men just to do that
01:00:40.480 --> 01:00:42.549
solely. And you see Australia is very
01:00:42.559 --> 01:00:44.549
good at that in the grassroots men's
01:00:44.559 --> 01:00:46.549
health movement is that there are so
01:00:46.559 --> 01:00:49.430
many examples. You know, men's table,
01:00:49.440 --> 01:00:51.510
we've got, you know, the tough guy book
01:00:51.520 --> 01:00:53.910
club, we've got you manual, we've got
01:00:53.920 --> 01:00:55.349
all of those really fragmented groups
01:00:55.359 --> 01:00:58.069
that that do that. But you talked about
01:00:58.079 --> 01:01:01.750
something about um gynoentrism. Is that
01:01:01.760 --> 01:01:03.990
is it gyno? gyocent
01:01:04.000 --> 01:01:06.309
>> centrism particularly when it comes um
01:01:06.319 --> 01:01:08.789
becomes embedded with institutions and
01:01:08.799 --> 01:01:10.870
certain perspectives um become the
01:01:10.880 --> 01:01:13.349
default lens in education, family law,
01:01:13.359 --> 01:01:16.309
health policy or public funding. Um and
01:01:16.319 --> 01:01:18.789
I think that really sort of made sense
01:01:18.799 --> 01:01:22.069
to me as well is that we don't create
01:01:22.079 --> 01:01:24.630
male friendly services. We you know in
01:01:24.640 --> 01:01:26.390
workplace where I spend a lot of my
01:01:26.400 --> 01:01:28.789
time, you know, gender responsive
01:01:28.799 --> 01:01:32.230
systems do not exist yet. It's all
01:01:32.240 --> 01:01:34.950
generic. So, you know, I mean,
01:01:34.960 --> 01:01:37.349
biologically we, you know, we're
01:01:37.359 --> 01:01:38.470
different. We come with different
01:01:38.480 --> 01:01:40.870
challenges. You know, menopause isn't
01:01:40.880 --> 01:01:43.190
even really acknowledged in workplace.
01:01:43.200 --> 01:01:45.109
Massive issue
01:01:45.119 --> 01:01:48.069
>> um for men and women in workplaces for
01:01:48.079 --> 01:01:51.349
both. So, I think I said a lot there I
01:01:51.359 --> 01:01:54.470
guess about the same thing.
01:01:54.480 --> 01:01:56.470
you would have a lot of experience in
01:01:56.480 --> 01:01:59.349
connecting to and reaching and engaging
01:01:59.359 --> 01:02:03.109
with men and and I think from your from
01:02:03.119 --> 01:02:04.710
your lived experience I'm sure you
01:02:04.720 --> 01:02:06.710
understand the ways that tend to work
01:02:06.720 --> 01:02:08.789
and and the ways that are less likely to
01:02:08.799 --> 01:02:10.069
be successful
01:02:10.079 --> 01:02:11.349
>> and like you said there are lots of
01:02:11.359 --> 01:02:12.950
examples of that in Australia fathering
01:02:12.960 --> 01:02:15.109
project goes into into schools and
01:02:15.119 --> 01:02:17.349
workplaces and uh men's tables an
01:02:17.359 --> 01:02:19.270
interesting one where it's a minimal
01:02:19.280 --> 01:02:21.109
commitment right so it's only once a
01:02:21.119 --> 01:02:21.670
month
01:02:21.680 --> 01:02:22.870
>> it's turning up for a dinner
01:02:22.880 --> 01:02:25.030
>> but It's not it's not systemic though.
01:02:25.040 --> 01:02:27.829
It's it's not creating this, you know,
01:02:27.839 --> 01:02:32.150
just global systemic approach to people.
01:02:32.160 --> 01:02:34.309
>> It's it's very isolated and it's
01:02:34.319 --> 01:02:37.030
dependent on men reaching out rather
01:02:37.040 --> 01:02:39.430
than meeting men where they are.
01:02:39.440 --> 01:02:39.990
>> Yeah.
01:02:40.000 --> 01:02:41.190
>> And I think that's where we have the
01:02:41.200 --> 01:02:42.789
opportunity in workplace is because
01:02:42.799 --> 01:02:44.549
we're meeting them where they are. And
01:02:44.559 --> 01:02:46.710
if we can create systems and policies
01:02:46.720 --> 01:02:49.190
and approach that's already embedded in
01:02:49.200 --> 01:02:52.390
workplace, men do men will go.
01:02:52.400 --> 01:02:54.630
Absolutely. If it feels safe
01:02:54.640 --> 01:02:56.470
>> and it feels like it's designed for them
01:02:56.480 --> 01:02:59.349
in mind, they will they will go.
01:02:59.359 --> 01:03:00.549
>> But then when you talk about that
01:03:00.559 --> 01:03:03.589
gyocentrism, gyocentrism and the
01:03:03.599 --> 01:03:05.510
institutionalization of that, you can
01:03:05.520 --> 01:03:07.990
see that, you know, you go to, you know,
01:03:08.000 --> 01:03:10.630
doctor's surgeries or you go to even
01:03:10.640 --> 01:03:13.030
maternal health care centers where now
01:03:13.040 --> 01:03:16.309
men are taking their children. Um, men
01:03:16.319 --> 01:03:18.710
who, you know, choose to stay at home
01:03:18.720 --> 01:03:21.510
with their kids. um and it's very very
01:03:21.520 --> 01:03:23.990
embedded with you know female centric
01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:25.109
support.
01:03:25.119 --> 01:03:26.710
>> I've had examples of men in the
01:03:26.720 --> 01:03:29.510
workplace seeking to establish a men's
01:03:29.520 --> 01:03:33.109
group in the parallel of the groups that
01:03:33.119 --> 01:03:35.029
support and bring together women
01:03:35.039 --> 01:03:37.349
including women in leadership and
01:03:37.359 --> 01:03:39.430
they've had a huge amount of resistance
01:03:39.440 --> 01:03:41.349
from HR and from their teams and they've
01:03:41.359 --> 01:03:43.190
been stigmatized you know in some cases
01:03:43.200 --> 01:03:46.309
attempts to cancel and disrupt what
01:03:46.319 --> 01:03:48.069
they're trying to do which is completely
01:03:48.079 --> 01:03:50.470
well-intentioned. All it's doing is
01:03:50.480 --> 01:03:52.950
seeking to have the similar support
01:03:52.960 --> 01:03:55.430
structures that have benefited females
01:03:55.440 --> 01:03:57.190
in the workplace and they can see a
01:03:57.200 --> 01:03:58.549
clear need there
01:03:58.559 --> 01:04:00.870
>> and they're being heavily pushed back
01:04:00.880 --> 01:04:03.109
against. When I get to the the final
01:04:03.119 --> 01:04:05.510
chapter in the book, I do talk about
01:04:05.520 --> 01:04:07.589
co-designing particularly health
01:04:07.599 --> 01:04:08.309
services.
01:04:08.319 --> 01:04:08.870
>> Yeah.
01:04:08.880 --> 01:04:11.670
>> Where a much bigger effort I believe
01:04:11.680 --> 01:04:14.710
needs to be put into listening to men.
01:04:14.720 --> 01:04:16.309
sometimes boys, but it's obviously
01:04:16.319 --> 01:04:18.789
mostly men in terms of the delivery and
01:04:18.799 --> 01:04:20.950
the access of those services
01:04:20.960 --> 01:04:23.349
>> in uh that that requires leadership from
01:04:23.359 --> 01:04:25.029
the top of bureaucracies and from
01:04:25.039 --> 01:04:28.549
political decision makers. Uh because at
01:04:28.559 --> 01:04:30.789
the small scale, you can tailor a
01:04:30.799 --> 01:04:32.630
service, but then you won't get the
01:04:32.640 --> 01:04:36.549
systemwide benefits of of having that
01:04:36.559 --> 01:04:39.270
service welcome and engage with and
01:04:39.280 --> 01:04:41.349
deliver positive outcomes for male
01:04:41.359 --> 01:04:42.789
patients and beneficiaries.
01:04:42.799 --> 01:04:44.549
>> Education as well, doesn't it? So the
01:04:44.559 --> 01:04:46.390
public health network or the public
01:04:46.400 --> 01:04:47.910
health system
01:04:47.920 --> 01:04:50.230
>> should be educated on how you know to
01:04:50.240 --> 01:04:52.390
work with men. Things like social
01:04:52.400 --> 01:04:54.789
prescription for example is something
01:04:54.799 --> 01:04:57.430
that happens in in isolation still not a
01:04:57.440 --> 01:04:59.589
lot of people understand what social
01:04:59.599 --> 01:05:01.510
prescription is and how it particularly
01:05:01.520 --> 01:05:03.910
works for men and for women. But you
01:05:03.920 --> 01:05:05.670
know instead of going to the doctor and
01:05:05.680 --> 01:05:07.029
you know whatever's going on in your
01:05:07.039 --> 01:05:08.630
life that you're feeling depressed
01:05:08.640 --> 01:05:10.230
instead of you know you're getting
01:05:10.240 --> 01:05:12.390
anti-depressants. Oh there's a men's
01:05:12.400 --> 01:05:14.470
shed down the road. there's a man's
01:05:14.480 --> 01:05:16.470
table, whatever it might be. There's
01:05:16.480 --> 01:05:18.150
plenty of things in your community that
01:05:18.160 --> 01:05:21.510
you can also access as as medicine.
01:05:21.520 --> 01:05:23.510
>> Um, and I think that's a really really
01:05:23.520 --> 01:05:25.510
cool approach to men's health, but we
01:05:25.520 --> 01:05:29.349
need to be able to educate the providers
01:05:29.359 --> 01:05:31.029
>> to be able to feel comfortable and
01:05:31.039 --> 01:05:33.029
knowledgeable to be able to prescribe
01:05:33.039 --> 01:05:33.670
that.
01:05:33.680 --> 01:05:34.789
>> Yeah, absolutely.
01:05:34.799 --> 01:05:38.870
>> Um, so again, this fix it mentality that
01:05:38.880 --> 01:05:40.870
we have for men, just fix them, just
01:05:40.880 --> 01:05:43.430
make them better. and then we're we're
01:05:43.440 --> 01:05:46.630
good to go. Need to sort of meet men
01:05:46.640 --> 01:05:48.870
where they are and understand what they
01:05:48.880 --> 01:05:51.270
need and make them part of the
01:05:51.280 --> 01:05:54.150
conversation rather than ex excluding
01:05:54.160 --> 01:05:56.150
them from the conversation. And I think
01:05:56.160 --> 01:05:58.309
that's probably one of the key factors
01:05:58.319 --> 01:06:00.390
that I see is that men just aren't
01:06:00.400 --> 01:06:02.950
included.
01:06:02.960 --> 01:06:07.029
>> But the continuing to stay quiet isn't
01:06:07.039 --> 01:06:09.910
the solution. We need to speak up
01:06:09.920 --> 01:06:11.829
boldly. But then you go through what
01:06:11.839 --> 01:06:13.910
your example of the workplace and men
01:06:13.920 --> 01:06:15.670
wanting to create a group where they can
01:06:15.680 --> 01:06:17.829
get together and work out some ideas of
01:06:17.839 --> 01:06:19.910
how to how to be, how to support, how
01:06:19.920 --> 01:06:22.390
to, you know, how to prosper better and
01:06:22.400 --> 01:06:24.549
those things get shut down. So then
01:06:24.559 --> 01:06:26.549
where does one go with that?
01:06:26.559 --> 01:06:28.789
>> But remember in the first wave of
01:06:28.799 --> 01:06:30.150
feminism and the second wave of
01:06:30.160 --> 01:06:32.710
feminism, it wasn't easy for the women
01:06:32.720 --> 01:06:34.710
and men who were at the vanguard of
01:06:34.720 --> 01:06:37.430
that. They were not just welcomed in and
01:06:37.440 --> 01:06:38.549
yeah, we're going to give you everything
01:06:38.559 --> 01:06:41.829
you want. So, this won't be easy and it
01:06:41.839 --> 01:06:43.430
will require persistence and
01:06:43.440 --> 01:06:47.109
collaboration and convincing and um much
01:06:47.119 --> 01:06:50.630
better thoughtful long-term advocacy. It
01:06:50.640 --> 01:06:53.829
it won't happen in a day or a week or a
01:06:53.839 --> 01:06:56.549
year. This is a a multi-deade
01:06:56.559 --> 01:06:59.910
swing from overreach back towards social
01:06:59.920 --> 01:07:01.510
health and harmony.
01:07:01.520 --> 01:07:03.670
>> It's going to take a lot of work and a
01:07:03.680 --> 01:07:04.630
lot of effort.
01:07:04.640 --> 01:07:06.309
>> Well, that's right. And arguing about it
01:07:06.319 --> 01:07:08.950
is not the answer. at being proactive
01:07:08.960 --> 01:07:10.870
and inclusive probably gets a bit
01:07:10.880 --> 01:07:12.870
closer. And fortunately, we've now got
01:07:12.880 --> 01:07:15.430
some of those frameworks in place, you
01:07:15.440 --> 01:07:17.270
know, diversity, equity, inclusion,
01:07:17.280 --> 01:07:18.950
belonging, all of those things that are
01:07:18.960 --> 01:07:21.829
now essential in workplaces.
01:07:21.839 --> 01:07:23.589
We haven't got it right yet by a long
01:07:23.599 --> 01:07:25.589
stretch. What that actually means in
01:07:25.599 --> 01:07:27.349
workplace, but we're evolving towards
01:07:27.359 --> 01:07:29.910
it. Um, and I think those s sort of
01:07:29.920 --> 01:07:31.670
things create, you know, I've done a lot
01:07:31.680 --> 01:07:34.390
of men's health um, presentations in
01:07:34.400 --> 01:07:37.829
workplaces under that banner. And so
01:07:37.839 --> 01:07:40.789
that's really really inspiring that um,
01:07:40.799 --> 01:07:43.910
organizations are recognizing that
01:07:43.920 --> 01:07:47.430
diversity, equity, and inclusion also
01:07:47.440 --> 01:07:49.430
fits with what it feels like being a man
01:07:49.440 --> 01:07:52.309
in a workplace. And in terms of the next
01:07:52.319 --> 01:07:56.150
steps, I believe we need to broaden and
01:07:56.160 --> 01:08:00.309
expand inclusion to actually include
01:08:00.319 --> 01:08:02.390
males, to actually listen to male
01:08:02.400 --> 01:08:05.190
voices. If you think about what we could
01:08:05.200 --> 01:08:07.750
what um what the advocates for men and
01:08:07.760 --> 01:08:09.589
boys could do, we could seek to
01:08:09.599 --> 01:08:11.430
overthrow complete systems and bring
01:08:11.440 --> 01:08:13.430
down DEI and all that sort of stuff, you
01:08:13.440 --> 01:08:15.109
know, get the woke out of universities,
01:08:15.119 --> 01:08:19.829
whatever. But or we could specifically
01:08:19.839 --> 01:08:23.590
argue for inclusion to have a lens that
01:08:23.600 --> 01:08:26.550
actually includes that's what was
01:08:26.560 --> 01:08:28.870
intended and that's the morally
01:08:28.880 --> 01:08:33.189
justifiable way to further implement
01:08:33.199 --> 01:08:36.309
that as a goal that benefits everyone
01:08:36.319 --> 01:08:36.789
and
01:08:36.799 --> 01:08:37.990
>> but I think we got to move away from
01:08:38.000 --> 01:08:39.749
gender when it comes to inclusion or
01:08:39.759 --> 01:08:42.229
diversity as well because you know
01:08:42.239 --> 01:08:45.189
diversity is of anything you're thinking
01:08:45.199 --> 01:08:47.349
you know how you see the world got
01:08:47.359 --> 01:08:48.789
nothing to do with gender. And I don't
01:08:48.799 --> 01:08:51.829
think exclusion or exclusion has to do
01:08:51.839 --> 01:08:53.349
with gender either.
01:08:53.359 --> 01:08:56.309
>> It's you you're either not or you are.
01:08:56.319 --> 01:08:58.550
>> Um depending on why you're being
01:08:58.560 --> 01:09:00.390
excluded. Am I being excluded because of
01:09:00.400 --> 01:09:02.870
my beliefs? Am I being excluded because
01:09:02.880 --> 01:09:05.110
of the way my hair's cut, my tattoos? I
01:09:05.120 --> 01:09:06.470
don't that's got nothing to do with
01:09:06.480 --> 01:09:07.189
gender.
01:09:07.199 --> 01:09:09.110
>> My sense is most people have moved on
01:09:09.120 --> 01:09:10.950
from that. There's some people in
01:09:10.960 --> 01:09:13.269
positions of power and elites who still
01:09:13.279 --> 01:09:15.590
want to have hang-ups about female
01:09:15.600 --> 01:09:18.309
quotas and about percentages and about
01:09:18.319 --> 01:09:21.590
agenda lens on inclusion. But my sense
01:09:21.600 --> 01:09:23.829
actually down at the cafe and in the pub
01:09:23.839 --> 01:09:25.590
and out on the footpath and in the
01:09:25.600 --> 01:09:28.149
pickups at school, I think most people
01:09:28.159 --> 01:09:31.030
just have moved on and they accept that
01:09:31.040 --> 01:09:34.950
there is a much broader um range of
01:09:34.960 --> 01:09:36.550
perspectives here that we need to think
01:09:36.560 --> 01:09:38.149
about cognitive diversity, not just
01:09:38.159 --> 01:09:41.110
about um superficial or representational
01:09:41.120 --> 01:09:43.189
diversity. So yeah, I I think
01:09:43.199 --> 01:09:44.630
>> I think there's a lot more settings that
01:09:44.640 --> 01:09:46.789
you might not hang out in that are still
01:09:46.799 --> 01:09:50.470
very very traditional and um yeah,
01:09:50.480 --> 01:09:53.430
haven't evolved much at all.
01:09:53.440 --> 01:09:55.910
>> M especially if you look at the you know
01:09:55.920 --> 01:09:59.189
the mostly male high-risk heavy industry
01:09:59.199 --> 01:10:01.830
um that you know you know is populated
01:10:01.840 --> 01:10:04.390
you know takes up so so much space in
01:10:04.400 --> 01:10:06.229
this country a lot of it still sits
01:10:06.239 --> 01:10:07.990
there. you go to remote part parts of
01:10:08.000 --> 01:10:12.149
Australia, um it's it's all still there.
01:10:12.159 --> 01:10:13.350
>> Yeah, there's a big contrast
01:10:13.360 --> 01:10:15.750
>> and it affects people and it's it's no
01:10:15.760 --> 01:10:17.350
still nobody's fault.
01:10:17.360 --> 01:10:19.110
>> It's part of just how we're evolving
01:10:19.120 --> 01:10:22.950
into it and you know and reach.
01:10:22.960 --> 01:10:24.630
>> Well, what I'm focused on at the moment
01:10:24.640 --> 01:10:30.070
is translating this wave of um
01:10:30.080 --> 01:10:33.110
interest and discussion about men and
01:10:33.120 --> 01:10:36.550
boys to concrete action. I I think it'll
01:10:36.560 --> 01:10:39.669
be a real wasted effort if all we get is
01:10:39.679 --> 01:10:41.990
some media coverage and changing topics.
01:10:42.000 --> 01:10:43.430
And for example, there was a question in
01:10:43.440 --> 01:10:45.430
Senate estimates last week which put
01:10:45.440 --> 01:10:48.630
Senator Wong on the spot about an office
01:10:48.640 --> 01:10:49.189
for men.
01:10:49.199 --> 01:10:49.830
>> I saw that
01:10:49.840 --> 01:10:52.310
>> if if all we get is a bunch of social
01:10:52.320 --> 01:10:55.110
media likes, we don't get anything
01:10:55.120 --> 01:10:57.590
tangible, then it's going to feel
01:10:57.600 --> 01:11:00.470
incredibly empty and wasted effort. My
01:11:00.480 --> 01:11:02.790
belief is that at this point in time, we
01:11:02.800 --> 01:11:06.870
need to shift to specific policy and
01:11:06.880 --> 01:11:09.430
cultural changes with with clear
01:11:09.440 --> 01:11:11.669
practical achievable goals behind them
01:11:11.679 --> 01:11:13.910
that can be done within a year or two in
01:11:13.920 --> 01:11:16.709
boys education, in men's health, suicide
01:11:16.719 --> 01:11:19.510
prevention, longevity and well-being. We
01:11:19.520 --> 01:11:21.030
need to pick out some things that can be
01:11:21.040 --> 01:11:22.870
done under a Labor government that are
01:11:22.880 --> 01:11:25.510
acceptable to all those gatekeepers who
01:11:25.520 --> 01:11:28.149
are involved in funding decisions,
01:11:28.159 --> 01:11:30.310
bureaucracy, you know, like I say,
01:11:30.320 --> 01:11:33.270
gynecentric public service departments.
01:11:33.280 --> 01:11:36.149
The the things we pick as the next steps
01:11:36.159 --> 01:11:37.510
for the short term, they have to be
01:11:37.520 --> 01:11:39.669
acceptable to the vast majority of
01:11:39.679 --> 01:11:40.870
people.
01:11:40.880 --> 01:11:43.669
>> What about Dan Repeakoli? like you know
01:11:43.679 --> 01:11:46.550
his role as the special envoy for um
01:11:46.560 --> 01:11:48.149
men's health here in Australia and Penny
01:11:48.159 --> 01:11:51.030
Wong referenced that as the thing that
01:11:51.040 --> 01:11:52.310
we got.
01:11:52.320 --> 01:11:54.229
>> Yeah, it's all okay. Just follow him cuz
01:11:54.239 --> 01:11:56.550
he's got some great posts. I mean that's
01:11:56.560 --> 01:11:58.470
not a that hasn't changed the lives of
01:11:58.480 --> 01:11:59.910
many men and boys in Australia.
01:11:59.920 --> 01:12:01.990
>> No. And look, I I I was a little bit
01:12:02.000 --> 01:12:04.870
dubious to begin with. And what I see,
01:12:04.880 --> 01:12:07.430
he's just one man in a fairly kind of
01:12:07.440 --> 01:12:09.990
unstructured role that seems to be doing
01:12:10.000 --> 01:12:12.070
the best that he can to get across as
01:12:12.080 --> 01:12:15.030
much as he can for one human being. So,
01:12:15.040 --> 01:12:16.550
I think it's a pretty tall order that
01:12:16.560 --> 01:12:19.669
he's been given um and not really clear
01:12:19.679 --> 01:12:21.910
what the expectations are for what he's
01:12:21.920 --> 01:12:23.110
going to achieve.
01:12:23.120 --> 01:12:24.630
>> And there are some positives that have
01:12:24.640 --> 01:12:26.709
come out of his um his time and effort
01:12:26.719 --> 01:12:29.750
in that role. I'm not going to uniformly
01:12:29.760 --> 01:12:31.750
criticize Dan or the Labour government
01:12:31.760 --> 01:12:33.510
for making that appointment. In fact, I
01:12:33.520 --> 01:12:35.750
think that appointment was one of the
01:12:35.760 --> 01:12:39.110
positive highlights of gender relations
01:12:39.120 --> 01:12:41.030
and male advocacy in Australia from last
01:12:41.040 --> 01:12:44.470
year. I I wrote up 2025 as a year of
01:12:44.480 --> 01:12:45.910
wins and achievements
01:12:45.920 --> 01:12:47.590
>> for the advocacy for men and boys and I
01:12:47.600 --> 01:12:49.350
did mention that appointment there and
01:12:49.360 --> 01:12:51.910
it stands out globally. If you look at
01:12:51.920 --> 01:12:53.030
the other English-sp speakaking
01:12:53.040 --> 01:12:55.590
countries, there were very few other
01:12:55.600 --> 01:12:58.070
decisions or appointments of similar
01:12:58.080 --> 01:13:01.110
note and importance and symbolic
01:13:01.120 --> 01:13:02.950
importance. There was the creation of
01:13:02.960 --> 01:13:04.470
the Center for Policy Research in Men
01:13:04.480 --> 01:13:05.590
and Boys in the UK.
01:13:05.600 --> 01:13:07.270
>> That's right. That's ticking along
01:13:07.280 --> 01:13:07.750
really well.
01:13:07.760 --> 01:13:09.030
>> Yeah. So, think about that. That's a
01:13:09.040 --> 01:13:11.590
real institution. It's got funding. It's
01:13:11.600 --> 01:13:12.790
got policy weight.
01:13:12.800 --> 01:13:14.550
>> And they've got an office, a literal
01:13:14.560 --> 01:13:15.510
office now.
01:13:15.520 --> 01:13:17.110
>> And they've got executives. They've got
01:13:17.120 --> 01:13:19.270
staff. They've got access to the center
01:13:19.280 --> 01:13:22.310
of government. So, I guess if I was
01:13:22.320 --> 01:13:25.350
weighing them up, I'd say the CPRB was
01:13:25.360 --> 01:13:27.030
more important than the appointment of
01:13:27.040 --> 01:13:29.430
Dan. But in the Australian context, the
01:13:29.440 --> 01:13:32.470
things that I called out included
01:13:32.480 --> 01:13:37.189
the attendance of all parties at the
01:13:37.199 --> 01:13:39.110
International Men's Day commemoration
01:13:39.120 --> 01:13:41.510
for male suicide called the zero suicide
01:13:41.520 --> 01:13:42.790
community awareness program which is
01:13:42.800 --> 01:13:44.630
held in front of Parliament House. Now,
01:13:44.640 --> 01:13:47.270
for the first time there, you had Labour
01:13:47.280 --> 01:13:49.350
members of Parliament walking down to
01:13:49.360 --> 01:13:51.590
the 2,500 shoes and paying their
01:13:51.600 --> 01:13:54.070
respects and demonstrating the
01:13:54.080 --> 01:13:56.550
importance of addressing the
01:13:56.560 --> 01:13:59.590
unacceptably high rates of suicide of
01:13:59.600 --> 01:14:02.390
men and boys in Australia. Um, there was
01:14:02.400 --> 01:14:04.550
representation from, like I said, across
01:14:04.560 --> 01:14:07.030
the aisle, bipartisan support that this
01:14:07.040 --> 01:14:09.750
is an area that we need to change as a
01:14:09.760 --> 01:14:11.990
society. So there there were a lot of
01:14:12.000 --> 01:14:14.149
wins in 2025.
01:14:14.159 --> 01:14:16.310
>> Dan's appointment and a whole bunch of
01:14:16.320 --> 01:14:18.550
others I've mentioned on but is he
01:14:18.560 --> 01:14:21.910
tokenry? That's you know I again my
01:14:21.920 --> 01:14:23.990
experience of him has been largely
01:14:24.000 --> 01:14:26.390
positive. He's been very responsive to
01:14:26.400 --> 01:14:29.669
my requests from him you know and in a
01:14:29.679 --> 01:14:33.430
in a very constructive way as well but
01:14:33.440 --> 01:14:35.430
still can't see what is the role he's
01:14:35.440 --> 01:14:37.110
playing. What is his objective? What
01:14:37.120 --> 01:14:39.030
what what are we heading towards? Are we
01:14:39.040 --> 01:14:41.350
heading towards formalizing this into a
01:14:41.360 --> 01:14:43.189
minister for men's health or an office
01:14:43.199 --> 01:14:44.950
or what is it?
01:14:44.960 --> 01:14:47.270
>> So I spoke with Dan's chief of staff and
01:14:47.280 --> 01:14:49.430
encouraged Dan to speak on International
01:14:49.440 --> 01:14:52.630
Men's Day about men's health and maybe
01:14:52.640 --> 01:14:54.470
some people would criticize that and say
01:14:54.480 --> 01:14:56.149
it's just tokenistic. It's just one
01:14:56.159 --> 01:14:57.590
person talking and you don't even see
01:14:57.600 --> 01:14:59.030
any followthrough or any money behind
01:14:59.040 --> 01:15:02.149
it. But I'll give you an example um
01:15:02.159 --> 01:15:04.870
which of a largely symbolic uh gesture.
01:15:04.880 --> 01:15:06.550
If the United Nations recognized
01:15:06.560 --> 01:15:07.910
International Men's Day and put it on
01:15:07.920 --> 01:15:09.110
their calendar,
01:15:09.120 --> 01:15:10.950
>> well, okay, it doesn't change the boys
01:15:10.960 --> 01:15:13.189
who are working in slavery or the child
01:15:13.199 --> 01:15:14.870
soldiers, you know, in developing
01:15:14.880 --> 01:15:16.630
countries, and it doesn't radically
01:15:16.640 --> 01:15:18.470
change the education outcomes for boys
01:15:18.480 --> 01:15:20.630
around the world, but that would be an
01:15:20.640 --> 01:15:21.910
important symbolic gesture.
01:15:21.920 --> 01:15:22.310
>> Yes.
01:15:22.320 --> 01:15:25.110
>> And I'm a huge critic of the United
01:15:25.120 --> 01:15:26.950
Nations and UN women because I think
01:15:26.960 --> 01:15:28.870
they're incredibly biased and that they
01:15:28.880 --> 01:15:32.070
don't honor half the population. If they
01:15:32.080 --> 01:15:34.470
did make a decision like that, I'd
01:15:34.480 --> 01:15:36.470
celebrate it and then the next day I'd
01:15:36.480 --> 01:15:38.470
be pressing them for the next step. What
01:15:38.480 --> 01:15:40.229
are you going to do next to follow
01:15:40.239 --> 01:15:41.750
through on this? What more needs to be
01:15:41.760 --> 01:15:42.310
done?
01:15:42.320 --> 01:15:44.790
>> I think what I see in the US in
01:15:44.800 --> 01:15:47.350
particular is this partisanship. They
01:15:47.360 --> 01:15:49.030
won't celebrate wins
01:15:49.040 --> 01:15:51.830
>> regardless of the nature of those wins.
01:15:51.840 --> 01:15:53.750
>> But is that the way that a movement
01:15:53.760 --> 01:15:56.390
works? Because if you're only going to
01:15:56.400 --> 01:15:59.990
celebrate the really narrow technical,
01:16:00.000 --> 01:16:02.630
ideological or political wins of people
01:16:02.640 --> 01:16:04.790
in your echo chamber, how do you ever
01:16:04.800 --> 01:16:06.709
get a big enough coalition of people to
01:16:06.719 --> 01:16:09.350
be on board for social cultural policy
01:16:09.360 --> 01:16:11.189
change? You never will.
01:16:11.199 --> 01:16:12.870
>> So instead of criticizing, you know,
01:16:12.880 --> 01:16:15.669
Gavin Newsome, the Democrat governor of
01:16:15.679 --> 01:16:19.270
California, he he issued an executive
01:16:19.280 --> 01:16:22.070
order which had some minor benefits for
01:16:22.080 --> 01:16:25.030
boys and young men. Uh it did change the
01:16:25.040 --> 01:16:27.270
conversation. It started a lot of media
01:16:27.280 --> 01:16:31.430
coverage, but the comments that I saw
01:16:31.440 --> 01:16:33.590
regarding that were highly partisan. A
01:16:33.600 --> 01:16:35.350
lot of them were really critical coming
01:16:35.360 --> 01:16:38.310
from Republicans and Trump supporters.
01:16:38.320 --> 01:16:39.990
Do you think that's going to encourage
01:16:40.000 --> 01:16:42.310
Gavin Newsome to take the next step?
01:16:42.320 --> 01:16:45.189
>> It's defeatism. It's nihilism. We've got
01:16:45.199 --> 01:16:48.390
to turn people around from criticizing
01:16:48.400 --> 01:16:51.350
and cutting others down to amplifying
01:16:51.360 --> 01:16:54.310
and lifting each other up. cuz this is a
01:16:54.320 --> 01:16:57.030
like I said a multi-deade
01:16:57.040 --> 01:16:59.110
um rebalance
01:16:59.120 --> 01:17:03.510
from overreach and imbalance back
01:17:03.520 --> 01:17:05.350
towards something that's more socially
01:17:05.360 --> 01:17:07.110
healthy. And there'll be a lot of little
01:17:07.120 --> 01:17:09.270
wins and changes along the way. And the
01:17:09.280 --> 01:17:11.510
only way of getting momentum is to
01:17:11.520 --> 01:17:13.030
capitalize on the little wins and
01:17:13.040 --> 01:17:14.709
achievements and to encourage the next
01:17:14.719 --> 01:17:17.590
steps. M well let's jump off the
01:17:17.600 --> 01:17:20.070
political stage for a moment cuz
01:17:20.080 --> 01:17:22.070
otherwise we could also stay there for
01:17:22.080 --> 01:17:25.590
for way too long. Um but respect what
01:17:25.600 --> 01:17:27.430
you're saying and and and your position
01:17:27.440 --> 01:17:31.910
there to more kind of the how and some
01:17:31.920 --> 01:17:34.070
of the small things that people can do
01:17:34.080 --> 01:17:36.950
or recognize in their own backyard that
01:17:36.960 --> 01:17:39.590
are quite thoughtless maybe or just just
01:17:39.600 --> 01:17:41.110
changing just looking at things through
01:17:41.120 --> 01:17:42.709
a different lens. And one of my favorite
01:17:42.719 --> 01:17:46.310
ones is the double standards one. Um,
01:17:46.320 --> 01:17:49.189
and how masculinity or manhood is
01:17:49.199 --> 01:17:52.149
described publicly. Um, we still see
01:17:52.159 --> 01:17:53.510
what might be called the harmless
01:17:53.520 --> 01:17:56.229
cultural jokes, the buffoon dads, the
01:17:56.239 --> 01:17:58.310
parent um, you know, the can't parent
01:17:58.320 --> 01:18:00.310
without supervision, violence against
01:18:00.320 --> 01:18:03.350
men, um, played for humor, the casual
01:18:03.360 --> 01:18:05.830
sexualization of men's and their bodies
01:18:05.840 --> 01:18:08.229
in ways that, you know, that would be
01:18:08.239 --> 01:18:10.070
called out immediately if that was
01:18:10.080 --> 01:18:12.229
something different. Um, I think that
01:18:12.239 --> 01:18:14.870
that's a place where we can we can
01:18:14.880 --> 01:18:16.709
literally do something just to change
01:18:16.719 --> 01:18:18.550
that because it's still very flippant.
01:18:18.560 --> 01:18:21.110
It's very I see it alive and well in
01:18:21.120 --> 01:18:24.070
workplace um where we can't really
01:18:24.080 --> 01:18:27.350
understand um that that's the wrong
01:18:27.360 --> 01:18:28.390
thing to do.
01:18:28.400 --> 01:18:29.910
>> Well, it's not harmless.
01:18:29.920 --> 01:18:30.229
>> No,
01:18:30.239 --> 01:18:31.510
>> it's doing real harm.
01:18:31.520 --> 01:18:33.910
>> Yeah. When I see it, it I feel harmed by
01:18:33.920 --> 01:18:36.790
it and I'm not a man. And imagine the
01:18:36.800 --> 01:18:38.709
boys, the teenage boys, the young men
01:18:38.719 --> 01:18:41.030
who've been subjected to consistently
01:18:41.040 --> 01:18:43.350
biased messaging for their whole lives
01:18:43.360 --> 01:18:45.430
who come out of 15 years or 20 years
01:18:45.440 --> 01:18:47.910
worth of indoctrination and feel
01:18:47.920 --> 01:18:49.910
completely beaten up. It's psychological
01:18:49.920 --> 01:18:51.030
warfare.
01:18:51.040 --> 01:18:53.270
>> It does demoralize and depress and
01:18:53.280 --> 01:18:55.590
destroy some people. I'll give you an
01:18:55.600 --> 01:18:58.310
example which I still see regularly.
01:18:58.320 --> 01:19:01.270
Don't be a dick. No [ __ ] policy. We
01:19:01.280 --> 01:19:03.030
would never do that about a female body
01:19:03.040 --> 01:19:05.990
part. No. like don't be a breast don't
01:19:06.000 --> 01:19:09.430
be a I mean it's a stupid things to say
01:19:09.440 --> 01:19:13.270
>> why do we put a sex or a gender around
01:19:13.280 --> 01:19:14.390
that
01:19:14.400 --> 01:19:16.070
>> it clearly wouldn't be acceptable if we
01:19:16.080 --> 01:19:18.149
were doing it in terms of the feminine
01:19:18.159 --> 01:19:22.790
the one that really um I ruminate a lot
01:19:22.800 --> 01:19:24.630
on is gamma bias
01:19:24.640 --> 01:19:26.790
>> and that's that's a selective
01:19:26.800 --> 01:19:28.550
interpretation
01:19:28.560 --> 01:19:31.189
and the key for picking out whether
01:19:31.199 --> 01:19:33.270
someone has gamma bias
01:19:33.280 --> 01:19:37.030
is do they know how to respond before
01:19:37.040 --> 01:19:39.430
they know the biological sex of the
01:19:39.440 --> 01:19:40.550
protagonist?
01:19:40.560 --> 01:19:42.149
>> Can you explain that a bit more clearly
01:19:42.159 --> 01:19:43.270
for our listeners, please?
01:19:43.280 --> 01:19:46.310
>> Yeah. So, so gamma bias is a it's a
01:19:46.320 --> 01:19:49.510
double standard. It's trying to pick up
01:19:49.520 --> 01:19:53.590
whether there's a an asymmetry between
01:19:53.600 --> 01:19:56.870
your perception of behaviors.
01:19:56.880 --> 01:20:01.990
Say um you know uh an assertive person,
01:20:02.000 --> 01:20:03.590
an assertive woman might be seen as
01:20:03.600 --> 01:20:05.750
confident. An assertive man might be
01:20:05.760 --> 01:20:09.189
seen as brash and abusive.
01:20:09.199 --> 01:20:12.390
>> Yeah. Controlling. So if you can't
01:20:12.400 --> 01:20:15.669
decide your response until you know the
01:20:15.679 --> 01:20:18.310
sex of the protagonist that suggests
01:20:18.320 --> 01:20:20.310
that you have deep gamma bites,
01:20:20.320 --> 01:20:20.709
>> right?
01:20:20.719 --> 01:20:24.470
>> If you judge and react to behaviors
01:20:24.480 --> 01:20:26.229
regardless of the sex of the
01:20:26.239 --> 01:20:27.910
protagonist, then you have no gamma
01:20:27.920 --> 01:20:28.390
vice.
01:20:28.400 --> 01:20:30.310
>> Okay? you you can just take a
01:20:30.320 --> 01:20:33.590
description of a impersonal behavior,
01:20:33.600 --> 01:20:35.510
achievement, success, whatever,
01:20:35.520 --> 01:20:37.830
>> and you'll be responding in the same way
01:20:37.840 --> 01:20:39.430
regardless of whether that is a girl or
01:20:39.440 --> 01:20:41.669
a boy or a man or a woman. That's the
01:20:41.679 --> 01:20:45.350
key to to identifying the bias.
01:20:45.360 --> 01:20:45.910
>> And I think
01:20:45.920 --> 01:20:47.350
>> is that why the other day when there was
01:20:47.360 --> 01:20:49.430
the shooting in Canada when they
01:20:49.440 --> 01:20:51.669
reported that um they they literally
01:20:51.679 --> 01:20:53.430
said we're not going to disclose the
01:20:53.440 --> 01:20:55.270
gender of the shooter
01:20:55.280 --> 01:20:57.030
>> because it was female. M
01:20:57.040 --> 01:20:58.870
>> if it had been male, it would have been
01:20:58.880 --> 01:21:00.950
of course reported immediately.
01:21:00.960 --> 01:21:03.350
>> And that's the case with reports of uh
01:21:03.360 --> 01:21:05.030
domestic and family violence in
01:21:05.040 --> 01:21:06.709
Australia as well.
01:21:06.719 --> 01:21:08.709
>> And
01:21:08.719 --> 01:21:12.229
the way that we can have a morally
01:21:12.239 --> 01:21:14.709
justifiable response to this is we
01:21:14.719 --> 01:21:16.709
always need to ask the question, what if
01:21:16.719 --> 01:21:18.470
you switch the sexes?
01:21:18.480 --> 01:21:19.110
>> Yeah.
01:21:19.120 --> 01:21:21.750
>> What if that was a male victim?
01:21:21.760 --> 01:21:22.149
>> Yeah.
01:21:22.159 --> 01:21:24.390
>> And a female perpetrator, would you feel
01:21:24.400 --> 01:21:25.830
the same way? Would you have the same
01:21:25.840 --> 01:21:28.709
compassion and empathy for the victim?
01:21:28.719 --> 01:21:30.149
Because this is what a lot of men are
01:21:30.159 --> 01:21:32.790
saying is there's very little funding.
01:21:32.800 --> 01:21:34.709
There's very little access to services.
01:21:34.719 --> 01:21:37.350
You know, one in five single parent
01:21:37.360 --> 01:21:39.590
families is led by a father or a man.
01:21:39.600 --> 01:21:40.630
>> Yeah.
01:21:40.640 --> 01:21:44.310
>> Do single uh dads have the same access
01:21:44.320 --> 01:21:46.950
to services and support and emergency
01:21:46.960 --> 01:21:48.630
accommodation and other things? No, they
01:21:48.640 --> 01:21:50.390
don't. There's a chronic shortage of all
01:21:50.400 --> 01:21:53.990
of those. So if we can't if we can't
01:21:54.000 --> 01:21:57.189
decide our compassion and our loving
01:21:57.199 --> 01:22:00.310
response to situations without knowing
01:22:00.320 --> 01:22:05.110
the sex that that indicates a deep bias
01:22:05.120 --> 01:22:06.790
in our behaviors.
01:22:06.800 --> 01:22:08.629
>> That's not morally justifiable.
01:22:08.639 --> 01:22:10.790
>> No. But I would I would just say simply
01:22:10.800 --> 01:22:14.470
to people before you say anything about
01:22:14.480 --> 01:22:17.110
you know commenting on like what you're
01:22:17.120 --> 01:22:19.270
talking about here just think about what
01:22:19.280 --> 01:22:21.750
it might look like in in reverse and
01:22:21.760 --> 01:22:25.110
that's how a man will be affected. Um I
01:22:25.120 --> 01:22:27.669
I know you know my my both my sons
01:22:27.679 --> 01:22:29.910
experience it you know in places where
01:22:29.920 --> 01:22:33.189
they work or they they they educate and
01:22:33.199 --> 01:22:35.270
it's it's really offensive their
01:22:35.280 --> 01:22:38.709
expectations. Um I remember just a
01:22:38.719 --> 01:22:41.030
story. I was working with some butchers
01:22:41.040 --> 01:22:43.910
um many many years ago and one butcher
01:22:43.920 --> 01:22:45.910
described to me a time and he you know
01:22:45.920 --> 01:22:48.149
his butcher shop was in a very affluent
01:22:48.159 --> 01:22:50.870
um area of Melbourne and he said that um
01:22:50.880 --> 01:22:54.310
one morning bunch of friends came in
01:22:54.320 --> 01:22:56.950
ladies came in to get their meat for
01:22:56.960 --> 01:22:59.270
Christmas you know special order and
01:22:59.280 --> 01:23:01.270
they were having a bit of a yak at the
01:23:01.280 --> 01:23:02.790
counter and having a laugh and they'd
01:23:02.800 --> 01:23:04.550
spotted a really cool knife. It was a
01:23:04.560 --> 01:23:06.229
very big butcher's knife and they were
01:23:06.239 --> 01:23:07.750
laughing how they would love to use that
01:23:07.760 --> 01:23:09.189
on their husbands.
01:23:09.199 --> 01:23:09.750
>> Yikes.
01:23:09.760 --> 01:23:13.750
>> And um and it was it was they were quite
01:23:13.760 --> 01:23:16.070
uporously laughing about this and
01:23:16.080 --> 01:23:17.270
talking about ways that they would like
01:23:17.280 --> 01:23:18.550
to kill their husbands and then got into
01:23:18.560 --> 01:23:21.750
this conversation. He was so traumatized
01:23:21.760 --> 01:23:24.149
by listening to this. And that was just
01:23:24.159 --> 01:23:25.830
one example how we think it's kind of
01:23:25.840 --> 01:23:27.590
funny. you know, I'm gonna, you know,
01:23:27.600 --> 01:23:29.030
I'm going to belt my husband over the
01:23:29.040 --> 01:23:31.990
head or, you know, I saw I saw a meme
01:23:32.000 --> 01:23:33.830
for Valentine's Day and it was a woman
01:23:33.840 --> 01:23:36.070
beating this man with a bunch of flowers
01:23:36.080 --> 01:23:38.149
going, I didn't want flowers. I wanted
01:23:38.159 --> 01:23:40.870
to go to Marrakesh. You know, it's but
01:23:40.880 --> 01:23:42.229
that was funny. That would that got so
01:23:42.239 --> 01:23:43.750
many likes and so many laughs. That's
01:23:43.760 --> 01:23:47.189
hilarious. It's just so not
01:23:47.199 --> 01:23:48.229
not at all.
01:23:48.239 --> 01:23:50.310
>> Well, it is it's socially unacceptable.
01:23:50.320 --> 01:23:52.790
If there was a recording of men looking
01:23:52.800 --> 01:23:55.030
at a knife and then talking about how
01:23:55.040 --> 01:23:58.870
they were going to um inflict
01:23:58.880 --> 01:24:01.669
very serious wounds onto their their
01:24:01.679 --> 01:24:03.750
wives or their partners that would be
01:24:03.760 --> 01:24:06.310
front page misogyny and evidence of, you
01:24:06.320 --> 01:24:09.270
know, deep sexism and social breakdown
01:24:09.280 --> 01:24:11.669
and all sort of other things. It's not
01:24:11.679 --> 01:24:13.669
acceptable for anyone to do that. You
01:24:13.679 --> 01:24:14.709
you can't go around talking about
01:24:14.719 --> 01:24:15.910
killing all men.
01:24:15.920 --> 01:24:18.229
>> That's not an acceptable thing in our
01:24:18.239 --> 01:24:19.990
civil society to do. No,
01:24:20.000 --> 01:24:21.830
>> you don't do that. You don't. You're not
01:24:21.840 --> 01:24:25.590
a role model unless you can, you know,
01:24:25.600 --> 01:24:27.750
present yourself to the world in a way
01:24:27.760 --> 01:24:29.270
that you want the next generation to
01:24:29.280 --> 01:24:31.910
behave in. They're teaching girls to do
01:24:31.920 --> 01:24:34.070
and say those same things.
01:24:34.080 --> 01:24:36.070
>> Deeply harmful to us socially and
01:24:36.080 --> 01:24:37.270
culturally.
01:24:37.280 --> 01:24:39.669
>> So, people change your lens, change your
01:24:39.679 --> 01:24:43.110
language, and um we're going to go to
01:24:43.120 --> 01:24:44.950
another break. Well, we haven't had a
01:24:44.960 --> 01:24:47.189
break for an hour cuz that went on for a
01:24:47.199 --> 01:24:50.470
while, didn't it? Um, look people, just
01:24:50.480 --> 01:24:53.990
a little bit of a um, reminder here. You
01:24:54.000 --> 01:24:55.590
know, we've we've delved into some
01:24:55.600 --> 01:24:58.390
pretty um, unexpected conversations. You
01:24:58.400 --> 01:25:00.550
know, if you feel if any feelings have
01:25:00.560 --> 01:25:02.070
come up for you that where you feel
01:25:02.080 --> 01:25:05.350
uncomfortable um, and you need some
01:25:05.360 --> 01:25:08.709
extra support, please uh, lifeline is
01:25:08.719 --> 01:25:11.270
there. Um, their number there is 1
01:25:11.280 --> 01:25:13.110
13114.
01:25:13.120 --> 01:25:18.149
suicide callback service 1 1300659-467
01:25:18.159 --> 01:25:20.470
and there's an amazing um government
01:25:20.480 --> 01:25:22.149
initiative we have here it's called head
01:25:22.159 --> 01:25:24.149
to health the number there is 1
01:25:24.159 --> 01:25:27.590
800595212
01:25:27.600 --> 01:25:30.229
or visit them at headtotohealth.gov.au
01:25:30.239 --> 01:25:32.470
AU. They've got about 5 million
01:25:32.480 --> 01:25:34.070
different resources. Probably
01:25:34.080 --> 01:25:36.790
exaggerating there. Um, clickable,
01:25:36.800 --> 01:25:38.950
printable, downloadable,
01:25:38.960 --> 01:25:41.350
um, talkable, you whatever you need,
01:25:41.360 --> 01:25:43.830
that's that's an amazing resource. So,
01:25:43.840 --> 01:25:45.830
as I said, if some of our conversations
01:25:45.840 --> 01:25:48.470
today have brought up uncomfortable
01:25:48.480 --> 01:25:51.350
feelings for you, please do seek
01:25:51.360 --> 01:25:54.870
support. Um, we're up to our next very
01:25:54.880 --> 01:25:57.030
special guest song request. Can you
01:25:57.040 --> 01:25:59.270
believe it?
01:25:59.280 --> 01:26:02.629
As as always, I've got a very special um
01:26:02.639 --> 01:26:04.790
cryptic clue for you, David.
01:26:04.800 --> 01:26:09.030
>> Are you ready for it?
01:26:09.040 --> 01:26:12.629
>> Aussie trousers.
01:26:12.639 --> 01:26:16.550
>> That's the clue.
01:26:16.560 --> 01:26:20.310
Jeans, shorts, very cryptic. No, I'm
01:26:20.320 --> 01:26:25.910
stumped. Dax
01:26:25.920 --> 01:26:29.110
>> D A X. If you haven't heard of this
01:26:29.120 --> 01:26:31.990
Nigerian rapper, look him up. He's
01:26:32.000 --> 01:26:33.510
sensational.
01:26:33.520 --> 01:26:35.990
>> To be a man is the title of the song.
01:26:36.000 --> 01:26:37.590
But I really wanted to make the clue
01:26:37.600 --> 01:26:40.629
about when you dack somebody.
01:26:40.639 --> 01:26:42.310
So, for those of you listening in from
01:26:42.320 --> 01:26:43.669
other parts of the world, to dack
01:26:43.679 --> 01:26:45.350
somebody means you pull down someone's
01:26:45.360 --> 01:26:47.430
pants, which is really terrible. It's
01:26:47.440 --> 01:26:50.149
It's a terrible form of bullying. Um,
01:26:50.159 --> 01:26:52.470
but it's also very Australian. So that's
01:26:52.480 --> 01:26:53.990
got to do with DAX. If you're wearing
01:26:54.000 --> 01:26:56.870
some pants, get your DAX on or get them
01:26:56.880 --> 01:27:00.950
off depending on what you're doing.
01:27:00.960 --> 01:27:02.870
>> And there's no reference to the artist
01:27:02.880 --> 01:27:04.229
or connection.
01:27:04.239 --> 01:27:05.990
>> Not at all. I'm glad we're laughing. But
01:27:06.000 --> 01:27:07.669
when we come back, let's widen the lens
01:27:07.679 --> 01:27:10.229
a bit um from policy and perception to
01:27:10.239 --> 01:27:12.629
purpose, fatherhood, and what the future
01:27:12.639 --> 01:27:14.310
might look like for boys growing up
01:27:14.320 --> 01:27:15.750
today. We're not going to cover any of
01:27:15.760 --> 01:27:17.189
that, by the way. I've just written that
01:27:17.199 --> 01:27:19.830
down cuz we'll be wrapping we'll be
01:27:19.840 --> 01:27:22.390
wrapping the show. So, don't go away.
01:27:22.400 --> 01:27:27.669
You're listening to 94.1 FM. It's 3WBC.
01:27:27.679 --> 01:27:29.270
Welcome back. If you've just tuned in,
01:27:29.280 --> 01:27:31.590
you're listening to What Does It Feel
01:27:31.600 --> 01:27:36.070
Like You Today on 94.1 FM 3WBC.
01:27:36.080 --> 01:27:39.189
I'm Ray Bonnie and in conversation with
01:27:39.199 --> 01:27:41.750
David Maywald, governance specialist,
01:27:41.760 --> 01:27:43.910
board director, and author of The
01:27:43.920 --> 01:27:46.629
Relentless War on Masculinity. And we've
01:27:46.639 --> 01:27:49.270
been exploring the systems, narratives,
01:27:49.280 --> 01:27:51.669
and policies shaping the lives of men
01:27:51.679 --> 01:27:54.629
and boys and some controversial stuff as
01:27:54.639 --> 01:27:56.550
well where we're probably agreeing to
01:27:56.560 --> 01:27:59.189
disagree. I don't know. But that's how
01:27:59.199 --> 01:28:01.910
it goes, doesn't it? you know, healthy
01:28:01.920 --> 01:28:04.229
debate or healthy conversation, you
01:28:04.239 --> 01:28:05.990
don't always have to agree and you don't
01:28:06.000 --> 01:28:09.669
have to be right, but I find when you're
01:28:09.679 --> 01:28:12.390
speaking about men's health, people will
01:28:12.400 --> 01:28:14.709
attack the person who's delivering the
01:28:14.719 --> 01:28:16.790
message rather than the message. I don't
01:28:16.800 --> 01:28:17.990
know if you find that.
01:28:18.000 --> 01:28:19.990
>> Yeah, absolutely.
01:28:20.000 --> 01:28:23.030
>> And it undermines, you know, healthy
01:28:23.040 --> 01:28:26.229
exchange and it undermines a potential
01:28:26.239 --> 01:28:28.470
to have balanced positive outcomes
01:28:28.480 --> 01:28:30.709
across the board. Oh, I've I've changed
01:28:30.719 --> 01:28:32.470
my mind more times than I could even
01:28:32.480 --> 01:28:35.030
imagine on some of some things that I
01:28:35.040 --> 01:28:37.189
felt very strongly about just through
01:28:37.199 --> 01:28:39.430
healthy conversation and not being
01:28:39.440 --> 01:28:42.070
attacked. Um,
01:28:42.080 --> 01:28:44.629
>> I think, you know, that song um has a
01:28:44.639 --> 01:28:47.590
powerful way of communicating to people
01:28:47.600 --> 01:28:50.470
>> and Dax is about 32 years old.
01:28:50.480 --> 01:28:52.390
>> His parents are both Nigerian and he's a
01:28:52.400 --> 01:28:56.629
Canadian. And for such a young man, he's
01:28:56.639 --> 01:28:58.790
able to vocalize and write lyrics and
01:28:58.800 --> 01:29:00.390
connect with people in a really powerful
01:29:00.400 --> 01:29:02.470
way. That song to be a man, it's been
01:29:02.480 --> 01:29:04.310
listened over 100 million times on
01:29:04.320 --> 01:29:06.470
YouTube alone.
01:29:06.480 --> 01:29:08.550
>> That line about unconditional loves for
01:29:08.560 --> 01:29:10.390
women, children, and dogs, I mean, that
01:29:10.400 --> 01:29:12.790
hits me every time. It really like goes
01:29:12.800 --> 01:29:14.390
to the core of what we were talking
01:29:14.400 --> 01:29:16.870
about before, which is this preferencing
01:29:16.880 --> 01:29:20.310
of of females of children and this
01:29:20.320 --> 01:29:22.629
almost lack of interest in the outcomes
01:29:22.639 --> 01:29:25.590
for males. So that song he released that
01:29:25.600 --> 01:29:29.510
as um as a single and then he did a duet
01:29:29.520 --> 01:29:31.910
and then he had this incredible response
01:29:31.920 --> 01:29:33.270
to the song.
01:29:33.280 --> 01:29:34.870
>> Dozens of people came back to him, you
01:29:34.880 --> 01:29:36.950
know, with potential verses and lyrics.
01:29:36.960 --> 01:29:39.270
He did a mega me what he called a mega
01:29:39.280 --> 01:29:40.229
remix
01:29:40.239 --> 01:29:41.990
>> which was a 10-minute long version of
01:29:42.000 --> 01:29:43.669
the song with 10 different artists.
01:29:43.679 --> 01:29:44.870
>> All right, that's the one that you told
01:29:44.880 --> 01:29:45.990
me not to play.
01:29:46.000 --> 01:29:47.750
>> It's it's very long but it's really
01:29:47.760 --> 01:29:49.350
powerful and I'd recommend everyone
01:29:49.360 --> 01:29:50.790
listening, you know, go and look it up.
01:29:50.800 --> 01:29:52.950
The mega remix of to be a man by Dax.
01:29:52.960 --> 01:29:55.669
There's a chorus uh there's a verse by
01:29:55.679 --> 01:29:59.270
uh an artist called the mediary and he
01:29:59.280 --> 01:30:01.189
goes to uh talking about men's
01:30:01.199 --> 01:30:02.870
wellbeing. At the end of his verse, he
01:30:02.880 --> 01:30:04.870
says, "Do you ever wonder why it's
01:30:04.880 --> 01:30:07.270
mostly men who commit suicide? We
01:30:07.280 --> 01:30:08.950
figure, why not? We're already dead
01:30:08.960 --> 01:30:11.910
inside." And it's one of, you know, the
01:30:11.920 --> 01:30:15.189
very moving uh excerpts of lyrics from
01:30:15.199 --> 01:30:16.950
those 10 artists. M
01:30:16.960 --> 01:30:19.270
>> I I played that at a conference in
01:30:19.280 --> 01:30:21.510
November last year and there was an
01:30:21.520 --> 01:30:24.070
outpouring of emotion and realization
01:30:24.080 --> 01:30:26.550
about the depth of
01:30:26.560 --> 01:30:29.590
>> experience that men have through work
01:30:29.600 --> 01:30:32.149
and relationships for children.
01:30:32.159 --> 01:30:34.709
>> And Dax for such a like I said such a
01:30:34.719 --> 01:30:36.229
young man he's got a way of connecting
01:30:36.239 --> 01:30:39.030
and imparting that in a way that
01:30:39.040 --> 01:30:42.149
connects that facts don't that that
01:30:42.159 --> 01:30:43.990
narratives don't. And I think it's
01:30:44.000 --> 01:30:46.470
really important that we use all forms
01:30:46.480 --> 01:30:49.669
of media and expression and art to reach
01:30:49.679 --> 01:30:50.870
audiences.
01:30:50.880 --> 01:30:53.270
>> Oh, I mean, music undoubtedly is one of
01:30:53.280 --> 01:30:56.629
the greatest um deliverers of of
01:30:56.639 --> 01:30:58.790
powerful messaging that people really
01:30:58.800 --> 01:31:00.629
resonate with. So, we've got to, you
01:31:00.639 --> 01:31:02.390
know, we big shout out to the
01:31:02.400 --> 01:31:04.310
entertainment industry, by the way. You
01:31:04.320 --> 01:31:06.709
know, underpaid, overworked,
01:31:06.719 --> 01:31:09.430
underrecognized, ripped off.
01:31:09.440 --> 01:31:10.390
>> Um,
01:31:10.400 --> 01:31:13.189
>> but look him up. D Ax. And please, if
01:31:13.199 --> 01:31:14.790
you're out there dax, come to Australia.
01:31:14.800 --> 01:31:16.310
We need you in Australia.
01:31:16.320 --> 01:31:17.830
>> Bring your pants out here.
01:31:17.840 --> 01:31:21.750
>> We won't duck you.
01:31:21.760 --> 01:31:24.310
>> Now, you just mentioned there suicide.
01:31:24.320 --> 01:31:26.229
We've probably only got one more little
01:31:26.239 --> 01:31:28.070
conversation to have before we start
01:31:28.080 --> 01:31:31.350
wrapping up, but you we I mean, we we we
01:31:31.360 --> 01:31:33.750
both know male suicide rates, you know,
01:31:33.760 --> 01:31:36.709
rose last year. I can't remember what's
01:31:36.719 --> 01:31:38.390
last year and this year at the moment.
01:31:38.400 --> 01:31:40.629
And female stats went down ever so
01:31:40.639 --> 01:31:42.790
slightly. And I heard you sort of making
01:31:42.800 --> 01:31:45.910
a comment about about that and you know
01:31:45.920 --> 01:31:48.310
there's a lack of gendered systems when
01:31:48.320 --> 01:31:50.390
it comes to suicide prevention. I
01:31:50.400 --> 01:31:51.750
believe the way that we fund it, the way
01:31:51.760 --> 01:31:53.350
that we research it
01:31:53.360 --> 01:31:55.510
>> and yeah, the way that we deliver
01:31:55.520 --> 01:31:57.270
services for suicide is still very
01:31:57.280 --> 01:31:59.910
generic. Um,
01:31:59.920 --> 01:32:03.270
and I guess my comment was,
01:32:03.280 --> 01:32:06.310
do you think that
01:32:06.320 --> 01:32:09.350
female suicide has decreased not because
01:32:09.360 --> 01:32:11.910
we're paying more attention to that, but
01:32:11.920 --> 01:32:13.430
because females are just getting more
01:32:13.440 --> 01:32:16.149
and more services or we're creating more
01:32:16.159 --> 01:32:19.189
services, more support, more funding um,
01:32:19.199 --> 01:32:23.350
and more um, vocalization around women's
01:32:23.360 --> 01:32:26.229
health that they're prospering better.
01:32:26.239 --> 01:32:28.550
In the book, I talk about how the
01:32:28.560 --> 01:32:31.270
English-speaking countries have moved
01:32:31.280 --> 01:32:33.030
from what I thought was close to
01:32:33.040 --> 01:32:35.669
equality 40 years ago to cultural
01:32:35.679 --> 01:32:37.590
gyocentrism. And now I believe we're in
01:32:37.600 --> 01:32:39.990
an age of institutional gyocentrism. So
01:32:40.000 --> 01:32:43.510
you've got media which is more friendly
01:32:43.520 --> 01:32:47.669
to female stories to more empathetic of
01:32:47.679 --> 01:32:50.790
female harm. You've got government
01:32:50.800 --> 01:32:53.270
agencies funded. For example, women's
01:32:53.280 --> 01:32:56.149
health research in Australia gets 5.4
01:32:56.159 --> 01:32:57.830
times more than men's health research
01:32:57.840 --> 01:33:00.950
according to the um national uh medical
01:33:00.960 --> 01:33:04.790
health research council. Um all arms of
01:33:04.800 --> 01:33:07.030
society, government, economy, education,
01:33:07.040 --> 01:33:10.950
media are sympathetic to females and
01:33:10.960 --> 01:33:13.590
have a lack of awareness and empathy and
01:33:13.600 --> 01:33:16.950
a lack of support for males. and it's
01:33:16.960 --> 01:33:20.709
obviously noted by many men in terms of
01:33:20.719 --> 01:33:24.709
family law. Um, and
01:33:24.719 --> 01:33:29.350
we have lacked an honest curiosity and a
01:33:29.360 --> 01:33:31.669
unbiased response to that. So to have
01:33:31.679 --> 01:33:34.470
male suicide increase by 5%. And female
01:33:34.480 --> 01:33:37.270
suicide decrease by 2%. Clearly the
01:33:37.280 --> 01:33:39.110
hundreds of millions of dollars is
01:33:39.120 --> 01:33:42.229
reducing slightly female suicide. But to
01:33:42.239 --> 01:33:43.510
be spending hundreds of millions of
01:33:43.520 --> 01:33:46.550
dollars every year and to still have a
01:33:46.560 --> 01:33:48.390
5% increase in male suicide, that's
01:33:48.400 --> 01:33:50.950
that's more than an extra hundred male
01:33:50.960 --> 01:33:54.310
souls lost in a year.
01:33:54.320 --> 01:33:56.470
So it's a huge indictment that we are
01:33:56.480 --> 01:33:58.070
not doing the things that are necessary.
01:33:58.080 --> 01:33:59.669
I can tell you from the survey results
01:33:59.679 --> 01:34:03.350
I've got from almost 250 men and women
01:34:03.360 --> 01:34:06.310
responding about specific measures we
01:34:06.320 --> 01:34:09.750
can take. Targeted suicide prevention
01:34:09.760 --> 01:34:12.149
that's effective for reducing men and
01:34:12.159 --> 01:34:14.870
boys taking their own lives is a very
01:34:14.880 --> 01:34:16.950
strong signal coming out of that survey
01:34:16.960 --> 01:34:17.830
response.
01:34:17.840 --> 01:34:20.070
>> Is there any specifics attached to that?
01:34:20.080 --> 01:34:22.629
>> Not at this stage. And I would I'm
01:34:22.639 --> 01:34:23.910
looking to the Australian Men's Health
01:34:23.920 --> 01:34:26.390
Forum and others who are enlightened and
01:34:26.400 --> 01:34:28.229
you know Glenn for example has been a
01:34:28.239 --> 01:34:29.669
champion in that area. He pointed out
01:34:29.679 --> 01:34:32.709
that the current strategy of the 117
01:34:32.719 --> 01:34:34.790
actions only three of them reference
01:34:34.800 --> 01:34:37.430
male services or men and boys.
01:34:37.440 --> 01:34:38.629
>> Are you kidding me?
01:34:38.639 --> 01:34:42.709
>> So 77% of suicide is males and the
01:34:42.719 --> 01:34:46.470
national strategy has three out of 117
01:34:46.480 --> 01:34:49.669
measures. Like you're completely right.
01:34:49.679 --> 01:34:53.270
We're not targeting the vast majority
01:34:53.280 --> 01:34:56.229
of this loss and this is a loss every
01:34:56.239 --> 01:34:57.750
single year,
01:34:57.760 --> 01:35:00.709
>> but we talk about stopping suicide and
01:35:00.719 --> 01:35:02.709
that's it. That's as far as it goes. And
01:35:02.719 --> 01:35:04.790
when you look at, you know, the the risk
01:35:04.800 --> 01:35:07.830
factors that lead to suicide in men and
01:35:07.840 --> 01:35:10.470
boys, they're many and varied, but you
01:35:10.480 --> 01:35:12.070
know, there's a very strong pattern as
01:35:12.080 --> 01:35:13.669
well. I mean you you know you mentioned
01:35:13.679 --> 01:35:15.990
before about you know family law and you
01:35:16.000 --> 01:35:17.350
know men that are moving through that
01:35:17.360 --> 01:35:20.870
system when um especially when um their
01:35:20.880 --> 01:35:22.870
alienation is involved and they've lost
01:35:22.880 --> 01:35:25.590
contact with their children you know
01:35:25.600 --> 01:35:28.070
access to their finances have dissipated
01:35:28.080 --> 01:35:30.470
their relationships broken down. Those
01:35:30.480 --> 01:35:33.830
three things are very very high in terms
01:35:33.840 --> 01:35:35.990
of risk factors leading towards suicide.
01:35:36.000 --> 01:35:38.070
But we're not doing anything about those
01:35:38.080 --> 01:35:39.910
three things.
01:35:39.920 --> 01:35:42.070
And there's evidence from the UK that
01:35:42.080 --> 01:35:45.110
many men at risk have reached out.
01:35:45.120 --> 01:35:47.590
they've sought some forms of support and
01:35:47.600 --> 01:35:49.510
that support hasn't been forthcoming or
01:35:49.520 --> 01:35:52.550
hasn't been in a form that is responsive
01:35:52.560 --> 01:35:55.270
to them and also that
01:35:55.280 --> 01:35:57.669
>> but sorry can I just interrupt there a
01:35:57.679 --> 01:35:59.669
little because it's just something that
01:35:59.679 --> 01:36:01.430
really burns brightly for me given that
01:36:01.440 --> 01:36:05.189
yeah 95% of my clientele are these men
01:36:05.199 --> 01:36:09.270
>> and it's not it's just often just
01:36:09.280 --> 01:36:10.950
thought of as a mental health problem.
01:36:10.960 --> 01:36:12.950
So if we can fix their mental health,
01:36:12.960 --> 01:36:15.189
we'll stop them from killing themselves.
01:36:15.199 --> 01:36:17.910
Now in these situations, it's it's not a
01:36:17.920 --> 01:36:19.510
mental health issue. They just need
01:36:19.520 --> 01:36:22.470
access to finance, access to their kids,
01:36:22.480 --> 01:36:24.790
and access to support to make sense of
01:36:24.800 --> 01:36:29.110
that. So buying men with drugs or
01:36:29.120 --> 01:36:30.310
telling them that they have a mental
01:36:30.320 --> 01:36:33.189
health problem is not really the answer.
01:36:33.199 --> 01:36:35.590
>> It's papering over substantially.
01:36:35.600 --> 01:36:37.669
>> We just have to get a practical approach
01:36:37.679 --> 01:36:39.030
to some of these things. It's not going
01:36:39.040 --> 01:36:41.189
to solve all suicide, but it will
01:36:41.199 --> 01:36:43.830
certainly make a big dent in I mean
01:36:43.840 --> 01:36:46.310
again most men that come to me are at
01:36:46.320 --> 01:36:48.709
that stage where they're ready to die.
01:36:48.719 --> 01:36:50.790
And that won't put it any more simply
01:36:50.800 --> 01:36:53.669
than that. Um I'm not there to save men.
01:36:53.679 --> 01:36:55.910
I'm there to help them make sense of,
01:36:55.920 --> 01:36:57.109
you know, what their options are. And
01:36:57.119 --> 01:36:59.669
quite often there aren't any options cuz
01:36:59.679 --> 01:37:01.189
they're just not available. They all
01:37:01.199 --> 01:37:03.590
they want is to be able to see their
01:37:03.600 --> 01:37:06.790
kids. So reverse like the sexes as we
01:37:06.800 --> 01:37:08.550
were talking about in the last session.
01:37:08.560 --> 01:37:10.790
How would a compassionate country
01:37:10.800 --> 01:37:12.950
respond if seven women and girls were
01:37:12.960 --> 01:37:14.470
taking their own lives and were subject
01:37:14.480 --> 01:37:16.229
to this institutional
01:37:16.239 --> 01:37:18.390
>> discrim? I don't think that's helpful
01:37:18.400 --> 01:37:20.550
when we just keep on reversing the sexes
01:37:20.560 --> 01:37:23.669
and make a male female conversation. I
01:37:23.679 --> 01:37:25.590
don't think that that's useful. I think
01:37:25.600 --> 01:37:27.350
we just have to focus on the fact that
01:37:27.360 --> 01:37:30.070
this is an issue and that we have to
01:37:30.080 --> 01:37:32.870
understand or if we want to understand
01:37:32.880 --> 01:37:34.310
that there is a different way through it
01:37:34.320 --> 01:37:35.990
because I think we're still thinking of
01:37:36.000 --> 01:37:38.709
of this very superficial level of
01:37:38.719 --> 01:37:40.550
suicide is just about men killing
01:37:40.560 --> 01:37:42.950
themselves and that's what men do
01:37:42.960 --> 01:37:44.550
because they don't seek help. they don't
01:37:44.560 --> 01:37:46.310
show emotion
01:37:46.320 --> 01:37:49.189
and those things are wholly untrue
01:37:49.199 --> 01:37:50.790
>> and they're not you know men are
01:37:50.800 --> 01:37:52.709
biologically predisposed that you know
01:37:52.719 --> 01:37:55.109
you're high risk takingaking in behavior
01:37:55.119 --> 01:37:57.830
biologically so that is going to that's
01:37:57.840 --> 01:38:00.790
another factor involved in being able to
01:38:00.800 --> 01:38:03.590
kill yourself. So those assertions that
01:38:03.600 --> 01:38:05.830
you mentioned, they go unchallenged
01:38:05.840 --> 01:38:07.270
>> so much of the time, whether it's in
01:38:07.280 --> 01:38:09.109
media or whether people talking to each
01:38:09.119 --> 01:38:11.510
other and there are bodies, enlightened
01:38:11.520 --> 01:38:14.790
bodies organizations and advocates who
01:38:14.800 --> 01:38:16.390
challenge and have evidence basis to
01:38:16.400 --> 01:38:18.149
push back and they're not currently
01:38:18.159 --> 01:38:20.550
being heard and given access to decision
01:38:20.560 --> 01:38:22.390
makers or having the influence to be
01:38:22.400 --> 01:38:24.709
able to change strategies. So change
01:38:24.719 --> 01:38:27.910
change the family law system or change
01:38:27.920 --> 01:38:31.270
the system that prevents men from seeing
01:38:31.280 --> 01:38:34.229
their children or men that are allowed
01:38:34.239 --> 01:38:35.910
to see their children perhaps every
01:38:35.920 --> 01:38:38.629
second week and have to pay between
01:38:38.639 --> 01:38:41.430
three and three and $1,000
01:38:41.440 --> 01:38:43.270
to see their children on top of
01:38:43.280 --> 01:38:44.950
maintenance as well. They've got no
01:38:44.960 --> 01:38:46.629
money. They're spending it all in the
01:38:46.639 --> 01:38:49.350
courts all in maintenance. And then then
01:38:49.360 --> 01:38:51.750
the the killer is to put that on top of
01:38:51.760 --> 01:38:54.470
it where now they're having to go to the
01:38:54.480 --> 01:38:56.790
bank to get themselves in further and
01:38:56.800 --> 01:38:59.030
further debt so they can spend 2 hours
01:38:59.040 --> 01:39:00.470
with their kids.
01:39:00.480 --> 01:39:02.390
>> That is atrocious.
01:39:02.400 --> 01:39:04.550
>> I agree. More people recognize that.
01:39:04.560 --> 01:39:08.310
>> Yeah. So, um the I mean I'll always go
01:39:08.320 --> 01:39:10.310
back to systems.
01:39:10.320 --> 01:39:12.229
Build the systems. change the systems
01:39:12.239 --> 01:39:15.669
that serve everybody because it's all
01:39:15.679 --> 01:39:18.390
about it's it's about people.
01:39:18.400 --> 01:39:19.830
>> Absolutely.
01:39:19.840 --> 01:39:23.189
>> So there you go. Now
01:39:23.199 --> 01:39:27.270
I have to tell you that after this show
01:39:27.280 --> 01:39:29.510
we have Paula Hog coming up for a very
01:39:29.520 --> 01:39:33.109
lazy Sunday afternoon and her tunes are
01:39:33.119 --> 01:39:35.270
pretty amazing. She brings them all in
01:39:35.280 --> 01:39:37.350
on CDs in about four different bags on
01:39:37.360 --> 01:39:40.229
the train. and um she's got she's she's
01:39:40.239 --> 01:39:42.629
she's very talented Paul. So if you're
01:39:42.639 --> 01:39:44.229
looking for a good chill out, stay
01:39:44.239 --> 01:39:47.590
tuned. I'm returning on Sunday the 15th
01:39:47.600 --> 01:39:49.910
of March for a very special and probably
01:39:49.920 --> 01:39:52.709
emotional show that's honoring the life
01:39:52.719 --> 01:39:56.310
of Jason Charlton. Now Jason um came to
01:39:56.320 --> 01:39:59.430
me as a client over 2 years and two
01:39:59.440 --> 01:40:01.830
years ago and became probably one of the
01:40:01.840 --> 01:40:03.590
most memorable and meaningful men I've
01:40:03.600 --> 01:40:06.790
had the privilege of working with. Um he
01:40:06.800 --> 01:40:09.910
passed unexpectedly in November very
01:40:09.920 --> 01:40:12.870
very quickly. He was only 50 years old.
01:40:12.880 --> 01:40:15.830
Um and for those who knew him, you'll
01:40:15.840 --> 01:40:17.910
understand just how big that absence
01:40:17.920 --> 01:40:20.870
feels. Um he was a force, an immense
01:40:20.880 --> 01:40:23.669
strength, ridiculous charm, and a
01:40:23.679 --> 01:40:25.750
vulnerability that sat very quietly
01:40:25.760 --> 01:40:28.390
beneath all of that. And when he came
01:40:28.400 --> 01:40:31.030
arm into my life, the way many men do,
01:40:31.040 --> 01:40:32.310
through a mate, through a mate, through
01:40:32.320 --> 01:40:34.390
a mate, through another mate, no
01:40:34.400 --> 01:40:36.870
marketing, just blo care of each other
01:40:36.880 --> 01:40:39.590
without all the blah blah. Um, what
01:40:39.600 --> 01:40:41.350
followed with 2 years of what I've often
01:40:41.360 --> 01:40:44.149
described as competitive harmony,
01:40:44.159 --> 01:40:45.830
hundreds of early morning hours where
01:40:45.840 --> 01:40:47.910
Jason consciously strove to be a better
01:40:47.920 --> 01:40:50.790
man. But the truth is, he already was.
01:40:50.800 --> 01:40:54.070
Um, he just couldn't see it. He was so
01:40:54.080 --> 01:40:56.550
proud of his business. JC's scaffolding.
01:40:56.560 --> 01:40:58.470
It's um not just about building
01:40:58.480 --> 01:41:01.109
worldclass scaffolding, but for creating
01:41:01.119 --> 01:41:03.590
opportunities through his generosity and
01:41:03.600 --> 01:41:05.910
meaning for anyone that was ever in his
01:41:05.920 --> 01:41:08.629
orbit. So on the 15th of March, I'm
01:41:08.639 --> 01:41:10.470
going to be joined live in the studio by
01:41:10.480 --> 01:41:13.189
his best and only sister, Amanda, and
01:41:13.199 --> 01:41:14.870
his very best friend, Lee, to put
01:41:14.880 --> 01:41:16.229
together something Jason would
01:41:16.239 --> 01:41:19.669
absolutely love. um honest, grounded,
01:41:19.679 --> 01:41:21.750
probably a little bit naughty and full
01:41:21.760 --> 01:41:23.750
of the kind of storytelling that refle
01:41:23.760 --> 01:41:26.709
reflects the many sides of this amazing
01:41:26.719 --> 01:41:28.950
human being. Um he might be gone, but
01:41:28.960 --> 01:41:33.430
he's he's still very um very present. Um
01:41:33.440 --> 01:41:35.350
this won't be a somber reflection alone.
01:41:35.360 --> 01:41:36.790
It will be pretty pretty much a
01:41:36.800 --> 01:41:40.390
celebration of his life. So um and of
01:41:40.400 --> 01:41:42.790
course today's conversation will be
01:41:42.800 --> 01:41:44.950
carefully brought together over the
01:41:44.960 --> 01:41:47.830
coming weeks by the ever multi-talented
01:41:47.840 --> 01:41:50.070
Mike Hagen. Now I'm used to sharing the
01:41:50.080 --> 01:41:51.990
health and safety stage with Mike, but
01:41:52.000 --> 01:41:54.470
on Friday night I saw a very different
01:41:54.480 --> 01:41:57.669
side of him fronting his rock band Swamp
01:41:57.679 --> 01:42:01.510
Donkey at the Acorn Bar in the Basin. Um
01:42:01.520 --> 01:42:03.270
now for those listening in from
01:42:03.280 --> 01:42:05.430
elsewhere, the Basin is not a bathroom
01:42:05.440 --> 01:42:07.430
reference. The basin's a real suburb
01:42:07.440 --> 01:42:09.270
nestled in the beautiful Danny Nong
01:42:09.280 --> 01:42:12.390
Rangers here in Victoria. So, rock front
01:42:12.400 --> 01:42:14.470
man one night, meticulous producer the
01:42:14.480 --> 01:42:16.790
next. We're lucky to have Mike bringing
01:42:16.800 --> 01:42:19.109
this episode together, which you'll be
01:42:19.119 --> 01:42:20.790
able to find alongside more than a
01:42:20.800 --> 01:42:23.030
hundred others at its original home on
01:42:23.040 --> 01:42:25.830
YouTube um on my website and wherever
01:42:25.840 --> 01:42:28.390
you get your podcast, including Spotify
01:42:28.400 --> 01:42:31.109
and Apple. Just search up Ray Bonnie
01:42:31.119 --> 01:42:33.030
podcast or Ray Bonnie YouTube or Ray
01:42:33.040 --> 01:42:35.030
Bonnie Men's Health or Ray Bonnie and
01:42:35.040 --> 01:42:37.669
it'll take you straight there.
01:42:37.679 --> 01:42:39.910
So David, if listeners want to get hold
01:42:39.920 --> 01:42:42.550
of the relentless war on masculinity,
01:42:42.560 --> 01:42:44.550
where is the best place to find it?
01:42:44.560 --> 01:42:46.950
>> So if you search for the relentless war
01:42:46.960 --> 01:42:47.910
on masculinity
01:42:47.920 --> 01:42:48.550
>> say it
01:42:48.560 --> 01:42:50.470
>> by David Maywald, you'll find the
01:42:50.480 --> 01:42:53.270
sources that that are um are most um
01:42:53.280 --> 01:42:54.709
likely for you. It's available in
01:42:54.719 --> 01:42:59.109
paperback, ebook, and audio book. And
01:42:59.119 --> 01:43:01.030
ever since it was published, it's been
01:43:01.040 --> 01:43:02.310
freely available through the National
01:43:02.320 --> 01:43:04.310
Library as well. So if you want to read
01:43:04.320 --> 01:43:06.229
the electronic copy, it's been there
01:43:06.239 --> 01:43:08.870
from International Men's Day last year.
01:43:08.880 --> 01:43:09.910
>> It's very generous.
01:43:09.920 --> 01:43:13.270
>> It's my gift to inform, to start
01:43:13.280 --> 01:43:15.910
conversations, to get the information
01:43:15.920 --> 01:43:16.550
out there.
01:43:16.560 --> 01:43:18.390
>> What sort of feedback have you had? Now,
01:43:18.400 --> 01:43:20.790
don't sugarcoat this either. Has anyone
01:43:20.800 --> 01:43:22.629
been offended by it?
01:43:22.639 --> 01:43:24.229
>> Oh, yeah. I've had push back,
01:43:24.239 --> 01:43:24.550
>> tell me,
01:43:24.560 --> 01:43:25.669
>> negative reactions,
01:43:25.679 --> 01:43:26.470
>> like what?
01:43:26.480 --> 01:43:28.870
>> Um,
01:43:28.880 --> 01:43:31.430
I'm in complete opposition to the
01:43:31.440 --> 01:43:34.070
propositions and the the conclusions
01:43:34.080 --> 01:43:39.590
that I'm reaching. Um, obviously from
01:43:39.600 --> 01:43:41.990
feminist perspective, young female, from
01:43:42.000 --> 01:43:44.149
a leftist perspective,
01:43:44.159 --> 01:43:46.550
uh, a resistance to wanting to engage in
01:43:46.560 --> 01:43:48.709
these conversations.
01:43:48.719 --> 01:43:50.310
Um,
01:43:50.320 --> 01:43:52.629
and
01:43:52.639 --> 01:43:54.310
sometimes that's uncomfortable and
01:43:54.320 --> 01:43:57.109
prickly. You know, as an author, you put
01:43:57.119 --> 01:43:59.830
your work out there in the world. And I
01:43:59.840 --> 01:44:01.830
had this huge excitement and trepidation
01:44:01.840 --> 01:44:04.870
at the time of publication.
01:44:04.880 --> 01:44:08.870
>> And um, obviously some fear about how it
01:44:08.880 --> 01:44:11.510
how your work, how your baby is going to
01:44:11.520 --> 01:44:14.550
be uh, you know, responded to by the
01:44:14.560 --> 01:44:17.270
world. I was honestly concerned that
01:44:17.280 --> 01:44:19.109
there would be a lot of push back and
01:44:19.119 --> 01:44:21.270
there hasn't been nearly as much as as
01:44:21.280 --> 01:44:23.030
my biggest fears.
01:44:23.040 --> 01:44:25.430
>> Uh I've had some very good feedback from
01:44:25.440 --> 01:44:28.149
moms of sons. Some of them just getting
01:44:28.159 --> 01:44:29.590
in touch and saying thank you so much
01:44:29.600 --> 01:44:31.590
for writing this. Like I have these
01:44:31.600 --> 01:44:33.270
conversations with my boys and my young
01:44:33.280 --> 01:44:36.390
men and thank you for being a voice that
01:44:36.400 --> 01:44:38.629
they don't get much support and
01:44:38.639 --> 01:44:39.910
encouragement from many many other
01:44:39.920 --> 01:44:41.669
places. That's why I love that Kelly
01:44:41.679 --> 01:44:43.750
Sloan, the New South Wales opposition
01:44:43.760 --> 01:44:45.189
leader, she's got three sons.
01:44:45.199 --> 01:44:45.510
>> Y
01:44:45.520 --> 01:44:47.590
>> and she's spoken out really positively.
01:44:47.600 --> 01:44:49.350
She's trying to reframe the conversation
01:44:49.360 --> 01:44:51.750
from, you know, masculinity is problem
01:44:51.760 --> 01:44:54.390
to be fixed to let's support and let's
01:44:54.400 --> 01:44:57.189
cherish. And, you know, I think you get
01:44:57.199 --> 01:44:59.350
the sense that she acknowledges the
01:44:59.360 --> 01:45:00.790
complimentarity,
01:45:00.800 --> 01:45:02.470
>> you know, masculine and feminine dancing
01:45:02.480 --> 01:45:03.910
together and the need for us to
01:45:03.920 --> 01:45:05.189
collaborate.
01:45:05.199 --> 01:45:06.790
>> That's what the book's all about.
01:45:06.800 --> 01:45:07.109
>> Yeah.
01:45:07.119 --> 01:45:09.910
>> It's it's questioning the one-sidedness.
01:45:09.920 --> 01:45:10.709
So yeah,
01:45:10.719 --> 01:45:14.070
>> is it doing what you want it to do?
01:45:14.080 --> 01:45:16.790
>> It has started, I think, thousands of
01:45:16.800 --> 01:45:19.189
conversations. It's had a reach in total
01:45:19.199 --> 01:45:20.629
in the millions if you look at all of
01:45:20.639 --> 01:45:22.870
the different um places that it's been
01:45:22.880 --> 01:45:25.189
mentioned and that it's been shared.
01:45:25.199 --> 01:45:27.830
>> So I think it is having
01:45:27.840 --> 01:45:31.189
an the intended uh effect, but also
01:45:31.199 --> 01:45:34.149
remember that wave I talked about. My
01:45:34.159 --> 01:45:36.629
sense is that there's a wave of movement
01:45:36.639 --> 01:45:40.229
towards balance and that people most
01:45:40.239 --> 01:45:42.790
people embrace that at the very extremes
01:45:42.800 --> 01:45:44.310
on both sides. I don't think there's an
01:45:44.320 --> 01:45:46.950
embrace. But I don't think that matters
01:45:46.960 --> 01:45:48.790
so much cuz there are people out there
01:45:48.800 --> 01:45:50.229
you'll never convince.
01:45:50.239 --> 01:45:50.550
>> No.
01:45:50.560 --> 01:45:52.709
>> And we don't need to waste our time
01:45:52.719 --> 01:45:55.990
listening or conversing or wasting our
01:45:56.000 --> 01:45:58.390
breath on those people. I'm more
01:45:58.400 --> 01:46:00.790
interested in having a sensible centrist
01:46:00.800 --> 01:46:02.790
conversation with people of goodwill who
01:46:02.800 --> 01:46:05.910
are open like you and I are to evidence
01:46:05.920 --> 01:46:08.149
and if I think we can persuade on really
01:46:08.159 --> 01:46:10.229
powerful stories and and evidence and
01:46:10.239 --> 01:46:11.830
social harmony
01:46:11.840 --> 01:46:13.510
>> uh benefit for everyone including
01:46:13.520 --> 01:46:15.270
children who currently have their little
01:46:15.280 --> 01:46:16.470
voice
01:46:16.480 --> 01:46:18.629
>> true and I think you know for for the
01:46:18.639 --> 01:46:20.229
for the naysayers as well they're not
01:46:20.239 --> 01:46:22.629
always naysayers for forever sometimes
01:46:22.639 --> 01:46:24.629
you know it might it might take one
01:46:24.639 --> 01:46:26.709
thing and we should not stop trying and
01:46:26.719 --> 01:46:27.910
it's not about convincing convincing
01:46:27.920 --> 01:46:30.390
people. I feel it's about showing people
01:46:30.400 --> 01:46:33.430
and educating ourselves at the same time
01:46:33.440 --> 01:46:35.830
to to to know more and and see different
01:46:35.840 --> 01:46:37.430
perspectives. I mean, I know that every
01:46:37.440 --> 01:46:39.510
day I get up knowing that I'm going to
01:46:39.520 --> 01:46:41.669
know so much more than I did when um I
01:46:41.679 --> 01:46:44.229
go to when I go to sleep, which always
01:46:44.239 --> 01:46:47.109
excites me. It embarrasses me sometimes
01:46:47.119 --> 01:46:48.790
when I think what came out of my mouth
01:46:48.800 --> 01:46:50.709
the day before. But hey, that's all
01:46:50.719 --> 01:46:55.350
right. I own that. Um, now Paula I see
01:46:55.360 --> 01:46:57.030
has just entered the studio which is
01:46:57.040 --> 01:46:59.350
very exciting. So we do have to wrap the
01:46:59.360 --> 01:47:03.430
show uh so we can make space for her.
01:47:03.440 --> 01:47:05.109
Now we have your final special guest
01:47:05.119 --> 01:47:07.750
song request. You did choose s four
01:47:07.760 --> 01:47:09.830
>> and we've only we're only playing three.
01:47:09.840 --> 01:47:10.870
Go. I can't even
01:47:10.880 --> 01:47:12.390
>> I could have picked a hundred. I think I
01:47:12.400 --> 01:47:13.990
mentioned to you how difficult it was to
01:47:14.000 --> 01:47:15.990
narrow them down.
01:47:16.000 --> 01:47:20.229
>> So the the clue is
01:47:20.239 --> 01:47:26.550
when the defibs are needed.
01:47:26.560 --> 01:47:28.070
This was weeks ago. You're really
01:47:28.080 --> 01:47:30.470
testing me here, eh? Uh,
01:47:30.480 --> 01:47:32.709
>> heart starter. Um,
01:47:32.719 --> 01:47:33.590
>> think about
01:47:33.600 --> 01:47:36.790
>> shock close to death.
01:47:36.800 --> 01:47:38.229
>> Bringing someone to life.
01:47:38.239 --> 01:47:39.270
>> Epscence.
01:47:39.280 --> 01:47:42.470
>> Yes. Or fa fading out. Bring bring on
01:47:42.480 --> 01:47:44.790
the defibs.
01:47:44.800 --> 01:47:46.709
But before we say goodbye and go to the
01:47:46.719 --> 01:47:48.790
song, David, thank you. genuinely thank
01:47:48.800 --> 01:47:51.590
you because I know what a great not only
01:47:51.600 --> 01:47:54.070
what a great supporter you are of me and
01:47:54.080 --> 01:47:56.310
you know every day as I said I'm so
01:47:56.320 --> 01:47:58.790
grateful that you know you and and other
01:47:58.800 --> 01:48:00.870
people like you are there encouraging
01:48:00.880 --> 01:48:02.629
and supporting and providing me with
01:48:02.639 --> 01:48:05.750
with information that I can learn but
01:48:05.760 --> 01:48:08.229
also for coming all the way from Canra
01:48:08.239 --> 01:48:12.070
to sit here in the studio um you've not
01:48:12.080 --> 01:48:14.229
just invested personally but
01:48:14.239 --> 01:48:16.629
professionally in in so much of your
01:48:16.639 --> 01:48:18.950
time and your resources is as you said
01:48:18.960 --> 01:48:20.950
just just to do something for other
01:48:20.960 --> 01:48:23.510
people which is very very selfless cuz I
01:48:23.520 --> 01:48:25.189
know there's nothing in this for you.
01:48:25.199 --> 01:48:26.790
There is there is not anything in this
01:48:26.800 --> 01:48:30.070
for you apart from hopefully resonating
01:48:30.080 --> 01:48:32.870
with people and making a difference. So
01:48:32.880 --> 01:48:34.470
that's that's just amazing
01:48:34.480 --> 01:48:36.709
>> and that in itself is a huge reward and
01:48:36.719 --> 01:48:38.149
that's something worth working for and
01:48:38.159 --> 01:48:38.870
striving for.
01:48:38.880 --> 01:48:39.109
>> Yeah.
01:48:39.119 --> 01:48:40.550
>> And I'd encourage everyone else to do
01:48:40.560 --> 01:48:41.430
that too.
01:48:41.440 --> 01:48:43.910
>> Let's work together as a community. And
01:48:43.920 --> 01:48:46.550
apart from your loudmouthedness on this
01:48:46.560 --> 01:48:49.669
show, I do appreciate
01:48:49.679 --> 01:48:51.510
your your approach. It's it's not loud
01:48:51.520 --> 01:48:55.189
and noisy, but it's usually gentle and
01:48:55.199 --> 01:48:57.270
and very very thoughtful. So, it's a
01:48:57.280 --> 01:48:59.510
it's a nice levelheaded approach that
01:48:59.520 --> 01:49:03.510
you have. Um, so everybody,
01:49:03.520 --> 01:49:05.189
this has been what it doesn't feel like
01:49:05.199 --> 01:49:07.669
being you today. Be kind, be curious,
01:49:07.679 --> 01:49:10.470
and don't be a beep because it seriously
01:49:10.480 --> 01:49:13.030
hurts people. So, here we go. This is
01:49:13.040 --> 01:49:16.870
effence and thank you again David. It's
01:49:16.880 --> 01:49:19.750
just been been amazing. You got the
01:49:19.760 --> 01:49:22.070
final word.
01:49:22.080 --> 01:49:24.629
>> It's been a real honor and privilege and
01:49:24.639 --> 01:49:27.910
it's a joy to engage and um
01:49:27.920 --> 01:49:29.990
>> well that's my middle name. So let's go
01:49:30.000 --> 01:49:34.480
out on that. Thank you. Bye.
Kind: captions
Language: en
00:00:00.880 --> 00:00:03.830
Now for today's show, my guest is
00:00:03.840 --> 00:00:06.070
someone who, like me, is not afraid to
00:00:06.080 --> 00:00:07.909
ask the challenging, unpopular
00:00:07.919 --> 00:00:10.390
questions. Not to provoke, but to
00:00:10.400 --> 00:00:12.629
understand what's missing, who's being
00:00:12.639 --> 00:00:14.629
overlooked, and how we might do better
00:00:14.639 --> 00:00:18.070
for everyone. David Maywald began his
00:00:18.080 --> 00:00:20.150
professional life in finance, moving
00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:22.550
through senior investment roles before
00:00:22.560 --> 00:00:24.630
transitioning into governance, board
00:00:24.640 --> 00:00:27.589
leadership, and advocacy. Along the way,
00:00:27.599 --> 00:00:29.589
he became deeply engaged in issues
00:00:29.599 --> 00:00:32.150
affecting boys, fathers, families, and
00:00:32.160 --> 00:00:34.709
men's health. Not from theory, but from
00:00:34.719 --> 00:00:36.870
lived experience as a husband, father,
00:00:36.880 --> 00:00:39.590
and enthusiastic citizen, paying close
00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:42.150
attention. He's known for questioning
00:00:42.160 --> 00:00:44.310
taken taken forranted assumptions,
00:00:44.320 --> 00:00:46.869
examining data others skim past, and
00:00:46.879 --> 00:00:48.869
inviting people away from polarized
00:00:48.879 --> 00:00:50.790
debate towards more thoughtful,
00:00:50.800 --> 00:00:53.430
constructive dialogue. David's recent
00:00:53.440 --> 00:00:56.069
book, The Relentless War on Masculinity,
00:00:56.079 --> 00:00:58.069
explores how Western societies have
00:00:58.079 --> 00:01:00.630
increasingly framed masculinity as
00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:02.869
something to be corrected and what that
00:01:02.879 --> 00:01:05.509
means for boys, education, men's mental
00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:08.070
health, fatherhood, family life, and
00:01:08.080 --> 00:01:10.710
social cohesion. Rather than arguing
00:01:10.720 --> 00:01:13.109
sides, he calls for a reset, a more
00:01:13.119 --> 00:01:15.590
balanced conversation that recognizes
00:01:15.600 --> 00:01:18.230
disadvantage where it exists, restores
00:01:18.240 --> 00:01:20.870
dignity, and ask men and women to work
00:01:20.880 --> 00:01:22.789
together for healthier outcomes across
00:01:22.799 --> 00:01:26.710
all settings. So, without further ado,
00:01:26.720 --> 00:01:29.749
it gives me great pleasure to open the
00:01:29.759 --> 00:01:33.350
mic to David Maywald. Welcome, David.
00:01:33.360 --> 00:01:35.590
>> Uh, good morning, Ray, and it is an
00:01:35.600 --> 00:01:37.190
absolute pleasure to be here with you.
00:01:37.200 --> 00:01:39.190
Um, I'd like to engage you as my
00:01:39.200 --> 00:01:40.789
publicist, I think, given that
00:01:40.799 --> 00:01:42.710
introduction. And, uh, I'd like to say
00:01:42.720 --> 00:01:44.069
good morning to all of the listeners,
00:01:44.079 --> 00:01:45.749
whether they are here, uh,
00:01:45.759 --> 00:01:48.469
geographically, temporarily. Um, and I'm
00:01:48.479 --> 00:01:49.910
really looking forward to our hopefully
00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:51.910
enlightening and sometimes uncomfortable
00:01:51.920 --> 00:01:52.630
conversation.
00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:54.149
>> Well, who knows where it'll go. We've
00:01:54.159 --> 00:01:56.469
got 2 hours to to color in, and I'm sure
00:01:56.479 --> 00:01:58.469
that's going to go like lightning, as
00:01:58.479 --> 00:02:01.270
they always do. But also, David has
00:02:01.280 --> 00:02:03.830
flown all the way from Canra to be here
00:02:03.840 --> 00:02:05.670
live. if we could have done it online as
00:02:05.680 --> 00:02:08.389
we do sometimes, but thank you so much
00:02:08.399 --> 00:02:09.749
for making that effort.
00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:12.869
>> Oh, I was very keen to and I've loved
00:02:12.879 --> 00:02:15.750
the chance to walk around the local area
00:02:15.760 --> 00:02:18.229
in Boxill. Uh walk through the gardens
00:02:18.239 --> 00:02:20.630
this morning. Saw a couple of groups of
00:02:20.640 --> 00:02:24.550
people um doing some uh very, you know,
00:02:24.560 --> 00:02:26.550
gentle, calming exercise, playing
00:02:26.560 --> 00:02:28.790
pingpong, the the beautiful playground
00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:31.270
there. Um and also had a chance to drop
00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:32.710
in at the local Catholic church, St.
00:02:32.720 --> 00:02:36.550
Francis Xavier. Um, and it's a delight
00:02:36.560 --> 00:02:39.270
to be here in person. Lovely to meet you
00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:41.190
in person. This is the first time we've
00:02:41.200 --> 00:02:41.830
met each other.
00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:42.390
>> It is.
00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:45.509
>> And uh, I think it's much more um,
00:02:45.519 --> 00:02:48.070
engaging to have uh, a face tof face
00:02:48.080 --> 00:02:49.589
conversation and to share some time
00:02:49.599 --> 00:02:50.309
together.
00:02:50.319 --> 00:02:53.670
>> There is nothing better than live radio.
00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:55.350
You can do a podcast, you can do a
00:02:55.360 --> 00:02:57.830
recording, but live radio is just
00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:00.070
something else. So So let's let's see
00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:02.869
how we go. But I I love starting the
00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:04.949
show talking about how we know each
00:03:04.959 --> 00:03:06.949
other cuz there's always a story behind
00:03:06.959 --> 00:03:10.790
it. LinkedIn tells me that we met uh
00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:14.470
online in September 2023 and we didn't
00:03:14.480 --> 00:03:16.550
really have any dialogue back then, but
00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:20.149
I can't remember who joined who first. I
00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:21.750
probably guess I reached out to you
00:03:21.760 --> 00:03:23.030
might have seen your involvement with
00:03:23.040 --> 00:03:25.190
Australian Men's Health Forum um where
00:03:25.200 --> 00:03:28.390
you're on the board and your chair um
00:03:28.400 --> 00:03:31.430
and I had been leaning into uh during
00:03:31.440 --> 00:03:34.390
that time more and more uh boldness in
00:03:34.400 --> 00:03:37.589
terms of advocacy research and um
00:03:37.599 --> 00:03:40.869
putting more of my time into and I I had
00:03:40.879 --> 00:03:42.949
several board positions at that time. So
00:03:42.959 --> 00:03:46.470
no doubt I was keenly uh observing and
00:03:46.480 --> 00:03:48.149
watching and learning from other board
00:03:48.159 --> 00:03:50.789
members. Yes. Well, an amazing
00:03:50.799 --> 00:03:52.789
organization, the Australian Men's
00:03:52.799 --> 00:03:54.789
Health Forum. I I served on that board
00:03:54.799 --> 00:03:57.429
for eight years and that learning
00:03:57.439 --> 00:04:00.390
trajectory for me was incredible. Uh,
00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:02.309
you know, being with like-minded people,
00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:04.229
especially under the leadership of Glenn
00:04:04.239 --> 00:04:07.990
P, who is, you know, he's men's health,
00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:10.309
you know, he's he knows that in spades,
00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:12.390
and his perspective is also very
00:04:12.400 --> 00:04:15.429
balanced uh about everybody. And I
00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:18.629
really liked that framing of of men's
00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:21.189
health that it is about everyone.
00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:22.629
>> I enjoy chatting with Glenn.
00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:23.030
>> Yeah.
00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:25.749
>> And he brings experience from from
00:04:25.759 --> 00:04:27.990
England as well. Um those perspectives
00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:30.950
and leadership in writing and speaking
00:04:30.960 --> 00:04:32.870
advocating and I think he has a clarity
00:04:32.880 --> 00:04:34.550
of thought and he has an appreciation
00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:36.390
across the different perspectives
00:04:36.400 --> 00:04:39.030
without being dragged into particular
00:04:39.040 --> 00:04:42.390
biases or or uh partisanship.
00:04:42.400 --> 00:04:44.390
>> Yeah. you know, he's he's doing a great
00:04:44.400 --> 00:04:47.270
job. But you've also come a long way
00:04:47.280 --> 00:04:50.629
from finance and investment worlds that
00:04:50.639 --> 00:04:52.870
don't usually sit all that naturally
00:04:52.880 --> 00:04:55.270
alongside conversations about care,
00:04:55.280 --> 00:04:58.230
vulnerability, and men's well-being.
00:04:58.240 --> 00:05:01.909
>> Yeah. Well, I I did fall into finance.
00:05:01.919 --> 00:05:04.070
It wasn't the first choice in terms of
00:05:04.080 --> 00:05:05.189
careers and areas.
00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:07.350
>> What was the first choice? I was going
00:05:07.360 --> 00:05:11.510
to be a computer systems engineer and um
00:05:11.520 --> 00:05:15.029
went to university at the age of 17. Um
00:05:15.039 --> 00:05:15.590
and
00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:16.870
>> that's very young, isn't it?
00:05:16.880 --> 00:05:20.469
>> Yeah. I I turned 17 heading into my year
00:05:20.479 --> 00:05:22.710
12 exams. I was probably a little bit
00:05:22.720 --> 00:05:24.550
immature. And um
00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:25.990
>> did you start school when you were four
00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:27.029
or something?
00:05:27.039 --> 00:05:28.870
>> I would have been in the younger younger
00:05:28.880 --> 00:05:31.909
half of those classes. And um and when I
00:05:31.919 --> 00:05:34.550
started university um I really
00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:38.629
struggled. like mood states and had one
00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:42.230
friend. Um really was found it very
00:05:42.240 --> 00:05:45.510
challenging um in what way emotionally,
00:05:45.520 --> 00:05:47.670
socially, the lack of uh family
00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:50.469
connection, being away from my friends
00:05:50.479 --> 00:05:53.590
and that year it it was a real challenge
00:05:53.600 --> 00:05:55.189
for me. The first time I'd really
00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:58.950
suffered academic failure and stumbled
00:05:58.960 --> 00:06:02.390
and um I had to reset. It took a good
00:06:02.400 --> 00:06:03.990
couple of years really to get back on my
00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:06.629
feet. and I tried three different
00:06:06.639 --> 00:06:08.629
courses and directions and was very
00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:10.790
fortunate to find commerce and economics
00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:14.870
and finance and um in my first unit at
00:06:14.880 --> 00:06:17.749
university I literally got 100% doing
00:06:17.759 --> 00:06:20.710
commerce 101 and realized that there's
00:06:20.720 --> 00:06:22.309
probably you know good fit there.
00:06:22.319 --> 00:06:23.830
>> Was that a maturity thing do you think
00:06:23.840 --> 00:06:26.390
or you just gravitated naturally?
00:06:26.400 --> 00:06:28.710
>> It took a while. Yeah. I think with a
00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:31.670
lot of boys, teenagers, young men,
00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:34.150
they're slightly behind cognitively.
00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:36.390
They're catching up with their the
00:06:36.400 --> 00:06:38.070
cohort. Some of the girls are a little
00:06:38.080 --> 00:06:40.309
bit more mature. And that was certainly
00:06:40.319 --> 00:06:42.629
the case for me um in my late teens and
00:06:42.639 --> 00:06:46.070
early 20s. And I needed to try a few
00:06:46.080 --> 00:06:48.390
different things, find those areas that
00:06:48.400 --> 00:06:50.390
I was suited to, you know, discover my
00:06:50.400 --> 00:06:53.670
real strengths and and areas that I'd be
00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:55.189
able to contribute. And I was very
00:06:55.199 --> 00:06:57.590
fortunate to find that. And when I did
00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:00.469
uh I really flourished and then moved
00:07:00.479 --> 00:07:02.390
into state again to take up a job.
00:07:02.400 --> 00:07:04.150
>> So you started in South Australia.
00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:04.950
>> Yeah, that's right.
00:07:04.960 --> 00:07:05.990
>> And then you moved to
00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:08.629
>> moved to CRA on a scholarship and lived
00:07:08.639 --> 00:07:11.110
in CRA for 6 years and then finished uh
00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:13.670
with two degrees and honors and moved to
00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:15.749
Sydney like many of the graduates at
00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:18.309
that time going to finance working in
00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:19.990
funds management as I did or bank
00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:22.629
banking or investment banking. M and
00:07:22.639 --> 00:07:26.070
that was did you enjoy that?
00:07:26.080 --> 00:07:27.589
>> Some of it I really enjoyed. You know, I
00:07:27.599 --> 00:07:29.589
moved to Sydney at the start of 2000
00:07:29.599 --> 00:07:31.029
>> and it was the Olympics year,
00:07:31.039 --> 00:07:31.430
>> right?
00:07:31.440 --> 00:07:33.830
>> And so there was a huge wave of
00:07:33.840 --> 00:07:36.550
anticipation and in social engagement
00:07:36.560 --> 00:07:40.550
and um team Australia I guess getting
00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:43.110
behind this Kathy Freeman in in the year
00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:44.390
2000.
00:07:44.400 --> 00:07:47.029
>> And so it was a big new world for me.
00:07:47.039 --> 00:07:49.270
>> Yeah. Yeah, I had to very quickly get up
00:07:49.280 --> 00:07:51.270
to speed professionally and contribute
00:07:51.280 --> 00:07:55.749
and deliver value and also again moving
00:07:55.759 --> 00:07:57.990
states, reestablishing friendships,
00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:00.150
finding support,
00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:02.230
>> especially in the fastest city in
00:08:02.240 --> 00:08:05.430
Australia being Sydney. Now I you know
00:08:05.440 --> 00:08:07.510
back in the very very early 80s I worked
00:08:07.520 --> 00:08:10.550
in banking and finance myself um with a
00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:12.710
chief economist and you know my
00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:14.150
reflection back then working in the
00:08:14.160 --> 00:08:16.869
money markets was very very you know
00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:19.749
mostly male environments um I know
00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:22.309
that's changed a lot since but when you
00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:24.230
were there in Sydney in the 2000s was it
00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:27.029
still very very mostly male environments
00:08:27.039 --> 00:08:28.550
>> it was notably male okay
00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:30.469
>> and when I was at university I had
00:08:30.479 --> 00:08:32.870
worked as a parliament house tour guide
00:08:32.880 --> 00:08:34.870
at New Parliament I saw that on your
00:08:34.880 --> 00:08:35.750
rabb sheet
00:08:35.760 --> 00:08:38.790
>> which was an extremely
00:08:38.800 --> 00:08:42.790
female and feminized um cohort. There
00:08:42.800 --> 00:08:45.509
was a female guy, three senior female
00:08:45.519 --> 00:08:47.829
leaders and there were only a handful of
00:08:47.839 --> 00:08:50.310
men within a team of about 40. So I had
00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:52.550
gone from Parliament House, you know,
00:08:52.560 --> 00:08:55.509
sort of matriarchal organization
00:08:55.519 --> 00:08:58.070
into financial sector in Sydney, which
00:08:58.080 --> 00:09:00.310
was the opposite. And so it was very
00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:04.550
obvious and uh I got that experience as
00:09:04.560 --> 00:09:06.550
a young person having seen both sides
00:09:06.560 --> 00:09:08.870
and appreciating the benefits of both.
00:09:08.880 --> 00:09:10.870
>> Yeah. What were you seeing in the
00:09:10.880 --> 00:09:13.350
underbelly of that? You know, and again
00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:16.070
upon my reflection working with with
00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:18.310
those men, you know, back then there was
00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:20.310
a lot of booze. There was a lot of
00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:22.070
really really hardcore working. There
00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:23.670
was probably a lot of, you know,
00:09:23.680 --> 00:09:27.590
misogyny going on. Um but when I look
00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:29.190
underneath that you know you see men in
00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:31.750
pain men who necessarily did not choose
00:09:31.760 --> 00:09:33.910
to be in those professions but were just
00:09:33.920 --> 00:09:37.030
surviving. What did you see?
00:09:37.040 --> 00:09:39.269
>> I saw mostly
00:09:39.279 --> 00:09:42.070
men and there were women in those teams
00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:44.470
uh and some very successful women but
00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:46.710
men who were applying themselves who
00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:50.790
found their niche who felt valued
00:09:50.800 --> 00:09:52.070
because they were earning a lot of
00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:53.829
money. They felt some stature around
00:09:53.839 --> 00:09:57.910
that. um not necessarily a calling in a
00:09:57.920 --> 00:10:01.910
spiritual sense. Uh I think for myself
00:10:01.920 --> 00:10:03.670
and for others there was probably a gap
00:10:03.680 --> 00:10:06.870
there, a hole and for me I filled that
00:10:06.880 --> 00:10:09.829
with voluntary work and with being
00:10:09.839 --> 00:10:11.590
involved in the local community.
00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:14.630
>> What gap and hole did you feel? Um
00:10:14.640 --> 00:10:16.630
there's very much a focus on making
00:10:16.640 --> 00:10:18.389
money for your shareholders, for your
00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:19.750
for your principal, for your
00:10:19.760 --> 00:10:21.269
organization.
00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:23.430
And you get to share in that through
00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:25.990
salaries and bonuses, but it can be very
00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:29.110
empty. And in investment management in
00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:31.269
particular, you're constantly striving
00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:33.269
for better performance. So you're trying
00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:35.990
to add a basis point here and a basis
00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:39.350
point there, which is 0.01% tiny little,
00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:41.030
>> you know, uh difference to your
00:10:41.040 --> 00:10:43.110
performance statistics. and you're also
00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:44.870
trying to convince people to invest
00:10:44.880 --> 00:10:46.870
their money with you. So, you're
00:10:46.880 --> 00:10:49.190
constantly on show. You've got your
00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:50.870
talking points and your pictures and
00:10:50.880 --> 00:10:52.150
you're trying to differentiate yourself
00:10:52.160 --> 00:10:54.069
from this incredibly competitive
00:10:54.079 --> 00:10:56.630
heterogeneous market.
00:10:56.640 --> 00:10:59.910
>> Those teams tended to have a bit of
00:10:59.920 --> 00:11:02.710
unonymity in
00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:06.949
their values, in their um
00:11:06.959 --> 00:11:09.910
style of competing. um they did tend to
00:11:09.920 --> 00:11:13.269
have a strong male leader who um was
00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:15.670
successful and imparted some of that
00:11:15.680 --> 00:11:17.350
knowledge on the younger staff and so
00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:19.350
obviously as a as a young employee I
00:11:19.360 --> 00:11:20.870
looked up to those people. I was looking
00:11:20.880 --> 00:11:22.630
how they live their lives.
00:11:22.640 --> 00:11:25.590
>> In other cases there was emptiness. You
00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:28.870
know having a very ownorous job means
00:11:28.880 --> 00:11:31.829
that you have to cut corners in other
00:11:31.839 --> 00:11:34.069
parts of your life. You can't be as
00:11:34.079 --> 00:11:36.710
present as a parent. So, I remember one
00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:39.990
classic um example, a trader who
00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:41.509
mentioned at one time to me that during
00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:43.110
the week he didn't see his kids because
00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:45.590
he was leaving the house so early, had a
00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:47.430
big commute, was getting into work to
00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:49.509
start for the trading hours, and then
00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:50.710
was getting home when the kids were
00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:54.310
already in bed. That left a big mark on
00:11:54.320 --> 00:11:57.990
me at that time. I wanted to, you know,
00:11:58.000 --> 00:11:59.269
I was looking for a partner. I was
00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:02.389
thinking about family eventually. And
00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:04.389
that story stuck with me for the best
00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:08.230
part of what 24 or 25 years. And I
00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:10.069
certainly said to myself, I don't want
00:12:10.079 --> 00:12:13.190
to be that father. And I felt that he
00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:15.590
was missing out. And other men do miss
00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:18.230
out because of the very strong
00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:19.670
commitment and time that they're putting
00:12:19.680 --> 00:12:21.030
into their careers.
00:12:21.040 --> 00:12:22.790
>> Do you think it's an expectation or a
00:12:22.800 --> 00:12:24.230
choice?
00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:26.230
>> Well, it can be both. There was an
00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:28.470
expectation generally in the firms that
00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:30.629
I worked with that you you'd work more
00:12:30.639 --> 00:12:33.030
than your expected hours.
00:12:33.040 --> 00:12:34.949
>> There was no time sheets. No one was
00:12:34.959 --> 00:12:36.710
saying I've worked 15 minutes overtime
00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:39.350
or I had to come in on the weekend. I I
00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:40.870
did lots of weekends. I did some
00:12:40.880 --> 00:12:42.629
allnighters. I did lots and lots of
00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:45.509
extra time and was always paid a salary.
00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:47.110
Never paid by the hour, never paid by
00:12:47.120 --> 00:12:50.949
the day. And so it was a part of the
00:12:50.959 --> 00:12:53.110
culture of those teams that everyone's
00:12:53.120 --> 00:12:55.269
pulling together and that you don't
00:12:55.279 --> 00:12:58.870
nitpick about particular aspects of the
00:12:58.880 --> 00:13:02.629
owners get results and if that requires
00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:04.710
you know more of your resources your
00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:06.710
personal resources you have to give them
00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:09.190
otherwise you can't be there.
00:13:09.200 --> 00:13:10.389
>> But it was informal.
00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:10.870
>> Yeah.
00:13:10.880 --> 00:13:12.310
>> That wasn't formally spelled out. It
00:13:12.320 --> 00:13:12.870
wasn't
00:13:12.880 --> 00:13:15.190
>> Yeah. I mean discretionary hours in
00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:17.750
mostly male settings is is incredible.
00:13:17.760 --> 00:13:19.190
you know, the amount of discretionary
00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:21.750
hours that that are um inputed into
00:13:21.760 --> 00:13:23.509
those into those industries.
00:13:23.519 --> 00:13:26.150
>> But I'm thankful that I did that before
00:13:26.160 --> 00:13:27.110
becoming a father.
00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:27.430
>> Yeah.
00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:29.590
>> To be honest, because
00:13:29.600 --> 00:13:32.710
>> I was much more established and my son
00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:34.389
was born when I was 40.
00:13:34.399 --> 00:13:37.110
>> So by that time, I had more flexibility
00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:39.269
and more discretion about how much time
00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:40.790
I was putting into work. And I was able
00:13:40.800 --> 00:13:43.030
to go back to 4 days. And then when my
00:13:43.040 --> 00:13:44.550
daughter was born, I went to 3 days
00:13:44.560 --> 00:13:45.590
permanent part-time.
00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:47.590
>> Yeah. cuz you spoke about becoming quite
00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:50.550
independent after selling the business.
00:13:50.560 --> 00:13:53.110
Um when was that? Was that during the
00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:55.030
time when you first had children or
00:13:55.040 --> 00:13:55.990
later?
00:13:56.000 --> 00:13:58.389
>> So that was about 15 years into my
00:13:58.399 --> 00:13:59.990
career. This is 10 years ago.
00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:00.550
>> Yeah.
00:14:00.560 --> 00:14:04.790
>> And that was after 10 years of slogging
00:14:04.800 --> 00:14:07.110
away in a startup helping to build a
00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:10.470
company and selling our services
00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:13.269
overseas. doing a lot of travel, product
00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:16.550
design, a lot of really ownorous work as
00:14:16.560 --> 00:14:19.910
analyst and portfolio manager. So I felt
00:14:19.920 --> 00:14:23.430
very grateful that the second startup
00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:25.670
that I worked for ended up being very
00:14:25.680 --> 00:14:28.790
successful because the chances can be
00:14:28.800 --> 00:14:30.150
much lower than that.
00:14:30.160 --> 00:14:32.150
>> Uh can be very risky. You can you can
00:14:32.160 --> 00:14:35.110
lose years of your life plowing into a
00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:36.550
business plan that ends up not going
00:14:36.560 --> 00:14:37.189
anywhere.
00:14:37.199 --> 00:14:40.310
>> Yeah. So I was very fortunate to be in a
00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:43.350
successful startup that was sold just uh
00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:45.269
10 years after it started.
00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:47.670
>> Great. So that and enabled you to make
00:14:47.680 --> 00:14:49.430
choices about your life.
00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:51.350
>> Yeah. It was transformational.
00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:52.069
>> Yeah.
00:14:52.079 --> 00:14:55.590
>> Like I said um in the years after that I
00:14:55.600 --> 00:14:57.269
had a lot of leave. I used that leave to
00:14:57.279 --> 00:14:59.350
spend more time with my son and give my
00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:01.910
wife some respite. And then when my
00:15:01.920 --> 00:15:03.990
daughter was born, I was in a position
00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:06.310
where I could drop my hours back and we
00:15:06.320 --> 00:15:09.110
had that flexibility which I feel really
00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:11.189
blessed to have had when the kids were
00:15:11.199 --> 00:15:11.910
young.
00:15:11.920 --> 00:15:14.069
>> And for example, we have were often
00:15:14.079 --> 00:15:16.230
turning up at the library or the pool or
00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:18.230
going to the park or the beach as a
00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:18.870
whole family.
00:15:18.880 --> 00:15:19.189
>> Yeah.
00:15:19.199 --> 00:15:21.189
>> You know, mom and dad, the son and
00:15:21.199 --> 00:15:24.150
daughter. M uh whereas I was often
00:15:24.160 --> 00:15:27.590
seeing moms with one, two, three kids,
00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:29.670
um grandmoms, sometimes granddads,
00:15:29.680 --> 00:15:32.069
occasionally see dads, but uh we were
00:15:32.079 --> 00:15:34.150
almost always the only full family that
00:15:34.160 --> 00:15:35.670
was going along to those events with our
00:15:35.680 --> 00:15:37.189
young kids, which was a real blessing.
00:15:37.199 --> 00:15:38.949
>> What on weekends?
00:15:38.959 --> 00:15:40.389
>> Both, you know, sometimes during the
00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:43.110
week, often um yeah, around uh around
00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:43.910
other hours.
00:15:43.920 --> 00:15:44.389
>> Yeah.
00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:46.710
>> But my wife and I both had u a lot of
00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:48.230
flexibility because of that
00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:49.910
transformational
00:15:49.920 --> 00:15:50.870
>> um blessing.
00:15:50.880 --> 00:15:53.749
>> Yeah. It's no it's it is very very lucky
00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:55.749
no doubt that you worked extraordinarily
00:15:55.759 --> 00:15:58.150
hard to be able to make those choices in
00:15:58.160 --> 00:16:01.829
your life but um fortunate no no less.
00:16:01.839 --> 00:16:03.670
Um I I think I heard you say something
00:16:03.680 --> 00:16:05.189
about
00:16:05.199 --> 00:16:07.030
this sort of shifted the question from
00:16:07.040 --> 00:16:09.509
what you need to earn to what actually
00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:12.230
matters. That was a quote I pulled out
00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:14.150
from somewhere that you said.
00:16:14.160 --> 00:16:15.670
>> Was that a that was that a really
00:16:15.680 --> 00:16:17.590
conscious shift for you?
00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:22.389
I was very aware when I was working 100%
00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:23.910
plus
00:16:23.920 --> 00:16:27.509
that
00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:31.350
there was a a strong draw on my time. I
00:16:31.360 --> 00:16:33.990
was seeing a lot of other um single
00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:36.069
people and young parents on that
00:16:36.079 --> 00:16:38.550
treadmill um doing it because of a big
00:16:38.560 --> 00:16:40.230
mortgage, doing it because of having to
00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:43.350
pay the bills and feeling that they
00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:45.590
didn't have choices.
00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:47.990
um for example, pay down the mortgage
00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:50.550
and then they they trade up to a more
00:16:50.560 --> 00:16:52.550
expensive house or a nicer suburb or
00:16:52.560 --> 00:16:56.230
stay on that hedonic sort of treadmill
00:16:56.240 --> 00:16:59.030
where uh they never feel they've they've
00:16:59.040 --> 00:17:01.110
got satisfied or they can slow things
00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:04.390
down. And you know, me and my wife, we
00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:06.150
made a conscious choice, an intentional
00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:08.949
choice that we didn't just want to chase
00:17:08.959 --> 00:17:10.630
that, that we wanted to have more
00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:12.870
discretion of our time. Mhm.
00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:15.829
>> And that opened up
00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:18.069
huge opportunities. You know, like I
00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:21.110
said, um I had a 20 year career in
00:17:21.120 --> 00:17:22.710
finance, but I was starting to feel a
00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:24.789
bit burnt out and getting a bit bored
00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:25.909
on, you know, to be honest. I was
00:17:25.919 --> 00:17:27.110
getting a bit bored with doing the same
00:17:27.120 --> 00:17:28.390
things for so long.
00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:31.750
>> Um I came not probably not the person
00:17:31.760 --> 00:17:34.870
who would do uh a job or a career for 30
00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:36.950
or 40 years. I think that's not in my
00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:39.750
personality. So I felt that it was time
00:17:39.760 --> 00:17:41.669
to do something different. And there was
00:17:41.679 --> 00:17:46.549
a epiphany for me when I found myself
00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:48.950
setting the alarm at 4:30 and 5:00 in
00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:50.630
the morning. And I was doing this
00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:53.510
advocacy around bicycle road safety
00:17:53.520 --> 00:17:55.830
because I was a I was a really avid
00:17:55.840 --> 00:17:57.909
member of one of the big bicycle clubs
00:17:57.919 --> 00:18:00.710
in Sydney called Duchill Bicycle Club.
00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:03.110
And my son was around. So we were both
00:18:03.120 --> 00:18:04.710
sleepd deprived. We were both a bit
00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:07.029
thinly stretched working and other
00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:09.270
things. And I found myself setting the
00:18:09.280 --> 00:18:12.630
alarm really early in the morning and
00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:14.870
wanting to spend time doing this work on
00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:18.470
advocacy. And it was delivering so much
00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:22.870
inherent reward. It was so energizing in
00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:27.909
my midlife that I felt the benefits of
00:18:27.919 --> 00:18:30.310
that intangible
00:18:30.320 --> 00:18:31.909
um
00:18:31.919 --> 00:18:34.870
impact of what I was doing. And it was
00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:37.510
much more powerful than the salary, the
00:18:37.520 --> 00:18:39.830
paychecks coming in. And I realized at
00:18:39.840 --> 00:18:43.430
that time that there was a calling there
00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:45.350
that there were other things I could
00:18:45.360 --> 00:18:48.070
contribute socially to other families to
00:18:48.080 --> 00:18:51.029
communities. And that was really a
00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:52.549
transformational time when it really
00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:53.909
crystallized that I wanted to do more
00:18:53.919 --> 00:18:55.350
time in governance on boards and
00:18:55.360 --> 00:18:57.750
nonprofits. And eventually led to where
00:18:57.760 --> 00:19:00.390
I am now doing advocacy for men and boys
00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:01.590
and writing a book.
00:19:01.600 --> 00:19:05.270
>> Yeah. Isn't it incredible how purpose
00:19:05.280 --> 00:19:09.029
and responsibility builds energy?
00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:09.430
It's
00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:12.710
>> um if you could bottle that and um hand
00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:14.070
that around, I think the world would be
00:19:14.080 --> 00:19:17.510
a better place. Um
00:19:17.520 --> 00:19:19.909
how did becoming a parent sort of
00:19:19.919 --> 00:19:21.990
sharpen your awareness of the systems
00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:24.310
boys and families um move through? Do
00:19:24.320 --> 00:19:24.950
you think
00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:26.950
>> it was really fundamental having a son
00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:29.510
and a daughter, it changed my whole
00:19:29.520 --> 00:19:32.789
perspective. It lengthened the time
00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:35.830
frames I was thinking about from this
00:19:35.840 --> 00:19:38.390
week and this year to a decade or two
00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:40.549
decades down the track. You know, in way
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:43.110
>> thinking about their life, about the
00:19:43.120 --> 00:19:44.549
school system they go through, about the
00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:46.390
jobs they have, about the partners they
00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:48.470
have in the future. Um, you know,
00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:50.950
aspiring to having grandchildren. It
00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:54.070
really lengthened my thoughts around
00:19:54.080 --> 00:19:55.909
legacy and the world that I want to try
00:19:55.919 --> 00:19:58.470
and shape for them. Uh and it also was
00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:00.789
fundamental to have both a son and a
00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:05.510
daughter because I love them equally
00:20:05.520 --> 00:20:09.590
honestly um deeply care for both of them
00:20:09.600 --> 00:20:13.350
and I don't want one of them to be a
00:20:13.360 --> 00:20:15.909
beneficiary of the suffering or lack of
00:20:15.919 --> 00:20:19.270
opportunities of the other. And I feel
00:20:19.280 --> 00:20:21.350
that for you know their friends as well.
00:20:21.360 --> 00:20:24.710
I feel like for the cousins and for my
00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:27.350
my friends kids that I want them all to
00:20:27.360 --> 00:20:30.230
have opportunities. I don't want any
00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:32.549
group of those children and that
00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:34.950
generation to be discriminated against
00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:40.390
or denigrated or to suffer culturally. M
00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:41.830
how do you find you know when you're
00:20:41.840 --> 00:20:43.590
working in such a micro place like you
00:20:43.600 --> 00:20:45.029
see your son and your daughter and you
00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:47.909
want to affect change for their future
00:20:47.919 --> 00:20:50.230
how does that impact the world globally
00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:51.190
do you think
00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:54.549
>> I think it does have a very big impact
00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:58.149
and for Gen X parents for millennial
00:20:58.159 --> 00:20:58.549
parents
00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:00.789
>> no I mean literally how does your work
00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:03.669
and your intentional work impact
00:21:03.679 --> 00:21:05.830
globally how how how can that
00:21:05.840 --> 00:21:10.789
reverberate enough.
00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:15.190
>> I aspire to that. I was thinking about
00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:16.950
that in terms of the book, but I've
00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:20.789
already done a lot of online advocacy.
00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:23.750
I've been trying to find messages that
00:21:23.760 --> 00:21:26.390
are shared and welcomed by men and
00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:29.430
women. I'm very conscious about mothers
00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:31.909
of sons, about reaching them as a
00:21:31.919 --> 00:21:36.149
demographic and an audience and about um
00:21:36.159 --> 00:21:39.430
reaching out to likeminded people of
00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:41.669
goodwill, whether that's parents,
00:21:41.679 --> 00:21:43.270
whether that's Christians, whether
00:21:43.280 --> 00:21:46.149
that's people who share the values
00:21:46.159 --> 00:21:50.390
around um empowering and equality of
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:52.310
opportunities and treating people with
00:21:52.320 --> 00:21:53.990
decency.
00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:56.070
>> No, I I agree. when it wasn't sort of a
00:21:56.080 --> 00:21:58.070
a leading question like how are you
00:21:58.080 --> 00:22:00.630
going to save the world it was more how
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:02.549
you know how can we do this and the
00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:05.270
world now is a much more connected place
00:22:05.280 --> 00:22:08.630
where we can and I've shared with you uh
00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:11.350
my work uh with global action on men's
00:22:11.360 --> 00:22:13.510
health and some of our very very
00:22:13.520 --> 00:22:16.310
ambitious uh initiatives that we have in
00:22:16.320 --> 00:22:18.310
the pipeline at the moment especially
00:22:18.320 --> 00:22:21.110
around affecting change to men's mental
00:22:21.120 --> 00:22:23.430
health globally and that just looks like
00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:26.310
such an insurmountable task but we sort
00:22:26.320 --> 00:22:29.029
of found a way to you know create a
00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:31.110
structure that is that is going to be
00:22:31.120 --> 00:22:35.190
possible. Um and for that for that for
00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:37.270
from that perspective I can see how it
00:22:37.280 --> 00:22:40.390
is very easy to scale and get across the
00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:42.870
broad sense of things when you have
00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:45.750
people like you and like many others
00:22:45.760 --> 00:22:48.710
like you that knit it all together. Um,
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:50.549
and when we're working together for the
00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:53.750
same for the same cause or for the same
00:22:53.760 --> 00:22:56.630
um outcome, which is the long the long
00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:58.870
game, not the short game. Um, I think we
00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:00.390
do have a chance.
00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:02.310
>> Well, in particular, I'm really very
00:23:02.320 --> 00:23:05.190
curious and I like to understand. And
00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:06.950
so, I'd seen a lot of grievance. I'd
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:08.310
seen a lot of complaints and
00:23:08.320 --> 00:23:10.549
dissatisfaction. But what I wanted to
00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:13.110
add was a perspective about sharing
00:23:13.120 --> 00:23:15.750
insight and understanding and opening up
00:23:15.760 --> 00:23:18.230
pathways to positive change.
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:21.110
So I'm particularly inspired to search
00:23:21.120 --> 00:23:23.830
for what are the changes we can make in
00:23:23.840 --> 00:23:25.990
education? How can we co-design health
00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:28.549
services with male patients and
00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:29.669
beneficiaries?
00:23:29.679 --> 00:23:31.430
>> So I'm very focused on that next step
00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:34.390
and you you'd see that as a board member
00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:36.710
>> that you diagnose, you look at options
00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:40.070
and then you uh attempt to execute on
00:23:40.080 --> 00:23:43.270
what appear to be the most practical and
00:23:43.280 --> 00:23:46.390
um feasible and beneficial options.
00:23:46.400 --> 00:23:49.190
Yeah, as and as we move through the
00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:50.710
show, I think we're going to unpack more
00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:52.310
and more and more about how this is a
00:23:52.320 --> 00:23:55.110
unified approach. It's not this, you
00:23:55.120 --> 00:23:59.750
know, some zero
00:23:59.760 --> 00:24:02.470
zero sum total. Is that how we say it?
00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:04.149
>> Okay, I always get it around the way.
00:24:04.159 --> 00:24:06.390
It's if we're taking from um if we're
00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:07.750
giving to men, we're taking away from
00:24:07.760 --> 00:24:09.909
women. It is a very unified approach
00:24:09.919 --> 00:24:12.630
around how if we if if we're supporting
00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:14.549
women, we're also supporting men and
00:24:14.559 --> 00:24:17.029
vice versa. It's just this is the way it
00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:17.830
is
00:24:17.840 --> 00:24:20.310
>> or this the way it can be.
00:24:20.320 --> 00:24:22.870
>> Yeah.
00:24:22.880 --> 00:24:26.390
>> Okay. Well, then David, it's that time
00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:29.029
of the show that I've clumsily coined
00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:32.070
the very special guest song request. And
00:24:32.080 --> 00:24:33.590
it's a moment's break where I have a bit
00:24:33.600 --> 00:24:35.269
of fun queuing up a song from your
00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:37.510
selection. And you have to guess from my
00:24:37.520 --> 00:24:40.710
very cryptically cryptic clue which one
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:43.750
it is. Also, it could be the song title,
00:24:43.760 --> 00:24:45.269
it could be the artist, it could be a
00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:46.390
combination of both. It could be
00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:48.549
anything really that I've decided at,
00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:50.549
you know, probably 4:00 in the morning.
00:24:50.559 --> 00:24:52.070
Does that does that make sense?
00:24:52.080 --> 00:24:54.070
>> Gotcha.
00:24:54.080 --> 00:24:59.590
>> So, your clue is what Soule must do to
00:24:59.600 --> 00:25:03.590
succeed.
00:25:03.600 --> 00:25:05.510
>> This would be Eddie Eddie that rise.
00:25:05.520 --> 00:25:07.990
>> That's the one. Fantastic. That was a
00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:10.070
pretty good clue.
00:25:10.080 --> 00:25:11.830
We got a bit of crackle there on the um
00:25:11.840 --> 00:25:13.190
on on the on the sound waves there.
00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:13.430
Sounds
00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:14.149
>> like vinyl.
00:25:14.159 --> 00:25:17.190
>> It does. It does. So, um what does this
00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:18.390
this song mean for you?
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:20.230
>> It's hugely inspiring and uplifting.
00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:20.630
>> Yeah.
00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:22.630
>> To me, and it's so simple.
00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:24.390
>> He's sitting there with ukulele.
00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:26.230
>> You know, it's acoustic. It's beautiful.
00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:29.269
It's crisp. And it really speaks to my
00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:30.070
heart.
00:25:30.080 --> 00:25:31.430
>> You know, my son said to me the other
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:33.430
day is, "Why didn't you get me ukulele
00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:35.750
lessons, Mom?" Like, just didn't occur
00:25:35.760 --> 00:25:37.669
to me.
00:25:37.679 --> 00:25:40.470
But now I can see why he's asking that
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:42.710
>> portable. You can take it anywhere.
00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:44.149
>> Now when we come back from the break,
00:25:44.159 --> 00:25:46.070
let's get across a big chunk of the how,
00:25:46.080 --> 00:25:49.510
what, why, where, when, and who of you.
00:25:49.520 --> 00:25:51.269
How does that sound?
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:51.990
>> All good.
00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:54.870
>> Great. Uh, you're listening to 94.1 FM.
00:25:54.880 --> 00:25:59.190
It's 3 WBC. Do not go away.
00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:00.630
>> Oh, how beautiful.
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:01.990
>> Uplifting.
00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:03.830
>> It's a great way to uh continue our
00:26:03.840 --> 00:26:05.990
conversation on a lovely Sunday morning.
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:07.830
>> It is that ukulele. I should have sent
00:26:07.840 --> 00:26:10.870
Rory to ukulele lessons. Anyway people,
00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:12.870
welcome back. The time is just 31
00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:15.669
minutes past 10 and you're listening to
00:26:15.679 --> 00:26:17.750
what does it feel like being you today?
00:26:17.760 --> 00:26:19.909
I'm Ray Bonnie and with me is David
00:26:19.919 --> 00:26:22.630
Maywald. He's a governance specialist,
00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:24.549
board director, and author of a brand
00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:26.870
new book, The Relentless War on
00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:28.710
Masculinity.
00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:30.070
>> Provocative title.
00:26:30.080 --> 00:26:32.710
>> Oh, do you know what?
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:34.870
Since I posted about this show, the
00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:36.710
amount of people that have said, "hm,
00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:38.470
that's going to be controversial, isn't
00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:41.430
it?" And my response was, "This is
00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:43.190
probably controversial in itself.
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:45.830
Reverse the gender on this and see if
00:26:45.840 --> 00:26:47.350
that would be controversial." And it
00:26:47.360 --> 00:26:49.110
probably wouldn't be.
00:26:49.120 --> 00:26:51.669
>> And why is it that caring about men and
00:26:51.679 --> 00:26:53.750
their health and their well-being and
00:26:53.760 --> 00:26:55.430
their prosperity, why is that
00:26:55.440 --> 00:26:58.310
controversial? It rubs up against an
00:26:58.320 --> 00:27:02.630
innate bias towards protecting and
00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:04.789
uplifting and cherishing females,
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:07.350
>> which should happen. I'm all for that.
00:27:07.360 --> 00:27:09.669
But I'm all for uplifting and cherishing
00:27:09.679 --> 00:27:11.269
everybody really.
00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:12.630
>> I aspire to that as well.
00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:15.750
>> It's just, you know, look, I'm I'm a
00:27:15.760 --> 00:27:17.590
woman. I I love being cherished. I love
00:27:17.600 --> 00:27:19.430
being cared for. I love I love feeling
00:27:19.440 --> 00:27:21.830
safe. And sometimes I'm I'm as safe as I
00:27:21.840 --> 00:27:23.510
want to be. I have a responsibility to
00:27:23.520 --> 00:27:25.990
do that for myself. um and how I
00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:27.990
navigate myself through the world.
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:30.230
Anyway, let's not go off on that tangent
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:33.110
cuz I have a question for you. And it
00:27:33.120 --> 00:27:35.269
goes like this. What does it feel like
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:38.789
being you today, David?
00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:43.110
>> My response would start with it's much
00:27:43.120 --> 00:27:45.669
bigger than just a feeling being here
00:27:45.679 --> 00:27:49.029
embodied in this moment.
00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:50.950
It's much broader than an emotional
00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:55.990
reaction or uh I I sense that and and
00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:58.950
reflect on that in a multi-dimensional
00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:01.110
perspective. Oh, a lot of thoughts and
00:28:01.120 --> 00:28:02.870
transient
00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:06.310
um moments
00:28:06.320 --> 00:28:10.149
partly which are feelings but many of
00:28:10.159 --> 00:28:13.430
them not. And and I guess that's
00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:16.470
slightly masculine in terms of
00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:19.190
responding to that awareness of your
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:23.510
being. And so I guess I have a much
00:28:23.520 --> 00:28:27.590
closer uh connection to those transient
00:28:27.600 --> 00:28:31.110
thoughts and those uh aspirations and
00:28:31.120 --> 00:28:34.950
reflections on failures and achievements
00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:37.750
than a close attachment to the feelings
00:28:37.760 --> 00:28:39.990
and the emotions which I feel are a bit
00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:43.669
um temporary and not always good guides
00:28:43.679 --> 00:28:45.909
to taking action and interacting with
00:28:45.919 --> 00:28:49.029
people. H I reckon that's the best
00:28:49.039 --> 00:28:51.190
answer to that question that I've ever
00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:53.590
received and I've asked that a lot of
00:28:53.600 --> 00:28:56.470
times as you know that is my tagline. Uh
00:28:56.480 --> 00:28:59.350
but I really really love that you've not
00:28:59.360 --> 00:29:01.110
only thought about the question but
00:29:01.120 --> 00:29:02.710
you've really dug into yourself to
00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:05.110
realize that it is more than a feeling.
00:29:05.120 --> 00:29:07.510
Um you know I believe you know when we
00:29:07.520 --> 00:29:09.590
have a feeling pretty quickly an emotion
00:29:09.600 --> 00:29:11.110
will come up and latch on to that
00:29:11.120 --> 00:29:13.110
feeling and then all of a sudden you're
00:29:13.120 --> 00:29:14.389
you're linking it to all these other
00:29:14.399 --> 00:29:15.990
things as well. So you're absolutely
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:18.230
right. It's yeah the feeling is the
00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:21.190
origin but what comes after that is um
00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:22.149
is very unique.
00:29:22.159 --> 00:29:23.750
>> You could ask me that question 10 times
00:29:23.760 --> 00:29:25.110
today and I might have a completely
00:29:25.120 --> 00:29:25.990
different answer.
00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:28.149
>> Well that's the reason why today is on
00:29:28.159 --> 00:29:30.230
the end or maybe I should change it to
00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:32.470
now. What does it feel like being you
00:29:32.480 --> 00:29:35.830
now? Because it is subjective.
00:29:35.840 --> 00:29:40.230
>> And I guess what I see with kids is an
00:29:40.240 --> 00:29:42.950
emphasis on vocalizing their emotions
00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:44.549
and their feelings.
00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:47.029
>> And perhaps that causes them to ruminate
00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:51.110
or to attach too much. Whereas
00:29:51.120 --> 00:29:53.990
um this might be a smaller part of their
00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:57.350
lives that we don't necessarily need to
00:29:57.360 --> 00:29:59.669
overemphasize or we don't need to draw
00:29:59.679 --> 00:30:01.510
out. And I think that's particularly the
00:30:01.520 --> 00:30:03.350
case with boys to be honest.
00:30:03.360 --> 00:30:05.590
>> I think we don't need to ask boys how
00:30:05.600 --> 00:30:07.669
are you feeling all the time. We can
00:30:07.679 --> 00:30:08.789
just let them be boys.
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:09.269
>> Y
00:30:09.279 --> 00:30:11.269
>> I actually quite like observing my son
00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:12.870
and being there in the moment with him
00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:15.510
and sometimes having those silences
00:30:15.520 --> 00:30:17.190
where we're just sitting together or
00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:19.029
doing different things together. He
00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:20.630
might be reading. I might be working or
00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:22.710
doing focused on chores.
00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:25.990
So whereas that might be more meaningful
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:28.230
for girls and young women, it might be a
00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:30.389
question that prompts deeper
00:30:30.399 --> 00:30:33.590
perspectives and sharing and starts a a
00:30:33.600 --> 00:30:35.350
beautiful colorful conversation with
00:30:35.360 --> 00:30:35.750
them.
00:30:35.760 --> 00:30:37.269
>> Yeah. I don't know. I think it's a human
00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:39.750
thing. I mean, my granddaughter, you
00:30:39.760 --> 00:30:41.590
know, she's clearly a girl and I
00:30:41.600 --> 00:30:42.870
wouldn't ask her how she was feeling
00:30:42.880 --> 00:30:44.389
about anything cuz she's just telling me
00:30:44.399 --> 00:30:45.590
all the time. you know, she's
00:30:45.600 --> 00:30:47.909
demonstrating how she's feeling not
00:30:47.919 --> 00:30:50.310
>> necessarily through words, but certainly
00:30:50.320 --> 00:30:53.269
through actions and expressions.
00:30:53.279 --> 00:30:54.870
>> It makes me think about Tom Golden,
00:30:54.880 --> 00:30:57.029
though, who's a therapist with 40 years
00:30:57.039 --> 00:30:58.870
of experience, and he's written a book
00:30:58.880 --> 00:31:00.789
specifically about the way that men
00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:04.630
heal, and he talks about that the
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:06.149
positive
00:31:06.159 --> 00:31:09.750
uh activities and the building things.
00:31:09.760 --> 00:31:11.669
For example, he gives this example of
00:31:11.679 --> 00:31:13.750
instead of a talking therapy with a man,
00:31:13.760 --> 00:31:15.269
he might take himself to the workshop
00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:16.870
and build a beautiful chair to remember
00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:19.350
a person who he's lost. And that could
00:31:19.360 --> 00:31:21.909
be a much more positive, wholesome,
00:31:21.919 --> 00:31:24.870
constructive response than being asked
00:31:24.880 --> 00:31:27.430
to discuss it or to share how he feels
00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:29.750
or thinks about that situation. And and
00:31:29.760 --> 00:31:31.990
I guess I agree my daughter is quite
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:34.230
expressive as well. I don't necessarily
00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:35.590
need to ask her
00:31:35.600 --> 00:31:37.029
>> how she's feeling or what emotion she
00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:39.909
has, but but there I get a sense that
00:31:39.919 --> 00:31:41.190
there can be different conversations
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:43.990
that elicit useful material.
00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:45.750
>> Well, I mean, I've got two boys and a
00:31:45.760 --> 00:31:48.710
girl, and my boys are much more vocal,
00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:50.389
expressive, and emotional than my
00:31:50.399 --> 00:31:52.549
daughter. Much, much more.
00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:54.710
>> Um, I'm actually working with a boy at
00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:56.549
the moment who's experiencing grief. And
00:31:56.559 --> 00:31:59.110
you know, he's he's a he's a young teen.
00:31:59.120 --> 00:32:01.750
And um and we was we were in session the
00:32:01.760 --> 00:32:03.830
other day and he's not very vocal at
00:32:03.840 --> 00:32:05.830
all. In fact, he doesn't say anything.
00:32:05.840 --> 00:32:08.149
And we I was speaking to him about, you
00:32:08.159 --> 00:32:09.830
know, how how he felt sitting in the
00:32:09.840 --> 00:32:11.430
session and if he felt comfortable. And
00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:13.190
he was completely comfortable. And I
00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:14.149
said, "Do you want to finish the
00:32:14.159 --> 00:32:16.389
session?" He said, "No, no, I'm just
00:32:16.399 --> 00:32:18.070
really happy just sitting in here in
00:32:18.080 --> 00:32:19.350
silence."
00:32:19.360 --> 00:32:21.190
>> And that's that's good for me. I'm I'm
00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:23.110
very comfortable sitting in silence with
00:32:23.120 --> 00:32:25.990
people because it's not our job to
00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:29.029
provide answers to fix to have advice.
00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:31.669
It's our job to create space for people
00:32:31.679 --> 00:32:33.669
and if his space is silence and that's
00:32:33.679 --> 00:32:35.990
where he feels comfortable and supported
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:38.549
well I'm doing that.
00:32:38.559 --> 00:32:41.190
>> My sense of some of the therapies
00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:43.430
psychology and some of the services that
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:46.230
are delivered is that the framing might
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:49.590
have come from a female perspective.
00:32:49.600 --> 00:32:51.190
Certainly I've heard a lot of fe
00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:54.149
feedback about the psychology discipline
00:32:54.159 --> 00:32:56.230
and how that has been shaped in the last
00:32:56.240 --> 00:32:58.789
few decades and if you look at the
00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:00.950
percentage in terms of male female
00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:02.870
that's about 80% female at the moment
00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:04.630
coming out of universities the
00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:07.430
psychology and that doesn't necessarily
00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:09.990
have the empathy and acceptance of male
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:14.230
ways of communicating of responding of
00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:16.870
engaging of dealing with material in
00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:19.590
their lives and I think there's probably
00:33:19.600 --> 00:33:21.590
a more balanced way of honoring the
00:33:21.600 --> 00:33:22.630
whole range
00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:26.310
>> of people and that most likely depends
00:33:26.320 --> 00:33:29.269
on some reasonable representation within
00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:29.909
the discipline.
00:33:29.919 --> 00:33:31.110
>> Well, that's right. You could say the
00:33:31.120 --> 00:33:33.590
same about education and health as well.
00:33:33.600 --> 00:33:35.909
It's it's very very similar in the lack
00:33:35.919 --> 00:33:39.190
of representation of of men and how we
00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:41.029
need both. You know, we we need that
00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:43.029
mix. We need options. We need all kinds
00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:46.389
of things. So uh if we can you know I
00:33:46.399 --> 00:33:48.230
think there's definite reasons why men
00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:50.149
won't engage in those professions
00:33:50.159 --> 00:33:52.789
particularly in the current climate
00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:54.870
makes them very vulnerable for all kinds
00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:57.350
of reasons um that they're either not
00:33:57.360 --> 00:33:58.870
going into it or they're leaving it.
00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:00.310
>> I'll give you one personal example and
00:34:00.320 --> 00:34:02.149
it goes back to my experience with
00:34:02.159 --> 00:34:04.630
Shield Bicycle Club. So, I was a dad
00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:07.430
with one and then two children. And I
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:08.790
found some of the best conversations
00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:11.270
were out on the bike with my male bike
00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:13.750
club colleagues. When we were going down
00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:15.909
to the national park and we had an hour
00:34:15.919 --> 00:34:18.710
and a half out there in nature um just
00:34:18.720 --> 00:34:20.069
looking down at the road at the line in
00:34:20.079 --> 00:34:21.510
front of us, we weren't looking at each
00:34:21.520 --> 00:34:23.990
other and that was key. We weren't
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:25.669
eyeballing each other. It wasn't
00:34:25.679 --> 00:34:27.909
intimidating. There was no judgment. I
00:34:27.919 --> 00:34:29.750
was chatting with another dad with a
00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:33.349
young kid just sharing openly about the
00:34:33.359 --> 00:34:34.950
joys but particularly about the
00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:37.829
challenges of having young children. M
00:34:37.839 --> 00:34:43.589
>> and I felt more support and more of a
00:34:43.599 --> 00:34:47.030
emotional embrace in those conversations
00:34:47.040 --> 00:34:49.109
than I ever did in a mom or dad's group
00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:51.669
or a a session where we had health
00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:53.829
professionals or we had family or or
00:34:53.839 --> 00:34:58.630
friends because it felt like a more
00:34:58.640 --> 00:35:02.470
meaningful and um
00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:05.190
safe, vulnerable uh conversation where
00:35:05.200 --> 00:35:07.030
we were both being heard and we were
00:35:07.040 --> 00:35:09.430
both open to share literally whatever we
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:10.710
wanted to share.
00:35:10.720 --> 00:35:12.710
>> And we knew that it was just about being
00:35:12.720 --> 00:35:14.310
there for each other and supporting each
00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:16.790
other. And we weren't being paid by any
00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:19.750
government funding or any nonprofit or
00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:22.310
any structured program. It was purely
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:24.950
spontaneous. It was absolutely informal.
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:26.390
It was just about humanity and
00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:27.190
connection.
00:35:27.200 --> 00:35:28.710
>> I think there's a lot to be said about
00:35:28.720 --> 00:35:30.550
moving forward. You know, having
00:35:30.560 --> 00:35:32.630
conversations in cars is the same thing.
00:35:32.640 --> 00:35:34.630
You're literally driving forward. you're
00:35:34.640 --> 00:35:36.230
not facing each other, but there's it's
00:35:36.240 --> 00:35:38.870
it's a it's a safe space.
00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:41.510
>> But um talking about boys, when you
00:35:41.520 --> 00:35:43.670
think about yourself as a boy, you know,
00:35:43.680 --> 00:35:46.630
you grew up in Adelaide um and then you
00:35:46.640 --> 00:35:48.790
look at boys growing up now, what feels
00:35:48.800 --> 00:35:52.150
most different to you in comparison?
00:35:52.160 --> 00:35:53.750
>> There's a lot more choice there and
00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:56.390
distractions from digital devices. And
00:35:56.400 --> 00:35:56.550
um
00:35:56.560 --> 00:35:58.470
>> when you say more choice,
00:35:58.480 --> 00:36:00.710
>> well, if you think about the number of
00:36:00.720 --> 00:36:03.270
um television stations, you know, there
00:36:03.280 --> 00:36:03.589
were
00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:05.829
>> Oh, okay. I not more choice, less
00:36:05.839 --> 00:36:06.550
choice.
00:36:06.560 --> 00:36:07.990
>> Yeah. Yeah. When I was growing up, there
00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:09.589
was a lot less choice.
00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:11.190
>> There there were four TV stations and
00:36:11.200 --> 00:36:13.910
then five and then uh then um
00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:17.670
multiccasting and internet and VHS to on
00:36:17.680 --> 00:36:19.349
demand and streaming
00:36:19.359 --> 00:36:22.470
>> um in the sense of being overloaded.
00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:25.349
the life as a boy or a girl growing up
00:36:25.359 --> 00:36:27.589
in Adelaide at that time. It was
00:36:27.599 --> 00:36:31.349
simpler. There were it the our
00:36:31.359 --> 00:36:32.870
perception was there were fewer things
00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:35.990
to choose from and there were um some
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:38.390
expectations around you know boys are
00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:40.390
playing cricket in summer and one coat
00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:44.230
of footy in winter and um life was
00:36:44.240 --> 00:36:47.829
simpler and less confusing. Um there was
00:36:47.839 --> 00:36:50.950
less criticism and deconstruction. There
00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:53.750
was more of an embrace of
00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:58.310
the healthiness of that limited set of
00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:03.430
options and not so much uh
00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:05.109
self-criticism
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:07.990
of uh the introspection of trying to
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:12.390
pick apart what's going on.
00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:15.109
So do you think you talk about choices,
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:17.910
less choices probably is less
00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:21.990
overwhelming and more more contained?
00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:24.150
But I think about those times as well
00:37:24.160 --> 00:37:25.670
and
00:37:25.680 --> 00:37:28.870
my my view is is very sim similar in
00:37:28.880 --> 00:37:30.790
that you know there weren't as many
00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:34.310
choices but safety was also another
00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:36.790
thing as well that we you know we didn't
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:40.630
have these sophisticated channels of um
00:37:40.640 --> 00:37:44.630
observation of of kids in particular and
00:37:44.640 --> 00:37:47.109
particularly how we kept boys safe. You
00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:49.109
know, we look at this golden age of
00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:50.710
childhood of, you know, riding your
00:37:50.720 --> 00:37:52.710
bikes, you know, until the lights came,
00:37:52.720 --> 00:37:54.790
the street lights came on and playing
00:37:54.800 --> 00:37:56.310
cricket up and down the road and going
00:37:56.320 --> 00:37:58.390
to your neighbors and but, you know, I
00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:01.030
deal with so many men who were now, you
00:38:01.040 --> 00:38:02.390
know, at that age where they're
00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:04.790
disclosing how they were harmed during
00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:06.150
those times where there was no
00:38:06.160 --> 00:38:09.589
supervision. Um, and I think that's kind
00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:12.150
of the other side of it as well. Perhaps
00:38:12.160 --> 00:38:15.109
we are overly solicitous these days and
00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:17.589
we cotton and bully our kids too much.
00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:19.349
Um, but I think back then I don't think
00:38:19.359 --> 00:38:21.829
we should be fooled by the fact that
00:38:21.839 --> 00:38:24.550
they weren't necessarily golden ages of
00:38:24.560 --> 00:38:27.030
childhood. Um, because there was a lot
00:38:27.040 --> 00:38:28.550
that really really slipped under the
00:38:28.560 --> 00:38:31.109
cracks for for you know boys and girls.
00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:32.790
I mean I was one of those girls that was
00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:35.190
harmed very deeply as a child and you
00:38:35.200 --> 00:38:38.390
know that was not ever um supervised or
00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:42.630
um acknowledged either. M and
00:38:42.640 --> 00:38:45.589
every age has had harm to children and
00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:49.990
to to uh adults and I agree there's
00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:54.069
there's no perfect ideal idealized uh
00:38:54.079 --> 00:38:57.349
error. There are trade-offs. Um we have
00:38:57.359 --> 00:38:59.270
exposed children in in the most recent
00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:01.829
generation to harm from digital devices
00:39:01.839 --> 00:39:04.470
and algorithms and addiction and mental
00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:05.829
health presentation which is
00:39:05.839 --> 00:39:06.870
extraordinary.
00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:07.109
>> Yeah. Yeah,
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:10.310
>> the rise particularly in girls in uh
00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:13.829
depression, anxiety is extraordinary.
00:39:13.839 --> 00:39:15.670
>> ADHD
00:39:15.680 --> 00:39:18.390
who does not have ADHD at the moment
00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:21.349
>> and some of the overreach in terms of
00:39:21.359 --> 00:39:24.470
safety and a focus on aspects of
00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:26.870
physical safety has actually taken away
00:39:26.880 --> 00:39:28.710
from healthy development of children as
00:39:28.720 --> 00:39:31.030
well. And you know, I mentioned that
00:39:31.040 --> 00:39:33.670
playground in Boxill Gardens that I
00:39:33.680 --> 00:39:35.829
walked past this morning. The the weird
00:39:35.839 --> 00:39:37.510
thing is that I was there early enough
00:39:37.520 --> 00:39:38.550
there were no children on that
00:39:38.560 --> 00:39:39.349
playground.
00:39:39.359 --> 00:39:41.030
>> But if my children had been there, they
00:39:41.040 --> 00:39:42.470
would have run up and found their
00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:44.230
favorite pieces of equipment, which have
00:39:44.240 --> 00:39:46.710
changed since 2 years ago and
00:39:46.720 --> 00:39:48.470
>> um since they were small,
00:39:48.480 --> 00:39:51.910
>> but they have a natural um way of
00:39:51.920 --> 00:39:55.030
navigating risk and looking for the next
00:39:55.040 --> 00:40:00.630
steps of growth and development. And by
00:40:00.640 --> 00:40:04.470
um limiting or disincentivizing some of
00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:06.870
those um life experiences, I think we've
00:40:06.880 --> 00:40:10.790
taken away from an essence of childhood.
00:40:10.800 --> 00:40:13.670
>> Yeah, I think well do you think that has
00:40:13.680 --> 00:40:15.829
to do with parenting as well?
00:40:15.839 --> 00:40:17.829
>> Parenting and also the formal compliance
00:40:17.839 --> 00:40:21.109
and and with legal u being sued around
00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:23.109
um safety councils ripping out
00:40:23.119 --> 00:40:25.349
particular pieces of equipment. There
00:40:25.359 --> 00:40:26.790
was something you said earlier in the
00:40:26.800 --> 00:40:30.310
show and it led me to think about how
00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:32.790
you were talking about you and Jen's way
00:40:32.800 --> 00:40:35.349
that you've designed your family and how
00:40:35.359 --> 00:40:36.710
you've sort of thought way into the
00:40:36.720 --> 00:40:38.310
future about, you know, what the
00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:39.829
objectives are, what your parenting
00:40:39.839 --> 00:40:42.470
parenting objectives are. How many
00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:44.710
people do you think sort of go into a
00:40:44.720 --> 00:40:47.510
relationship that really design that
00:40:47.520 --> 00:40:50.069
intentionally how their family is going
00:40:50.079 --> 00:40:51.829
to be or how they're going to raise
00:40:51.839 --> 00:40:54.470
their family with intention?
00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:57.030
Some couples do intentionally, but life
00:40:57.040 --> 00:41:01.510
has a way of overtaking and your your
00:41:01.520 --> 00:41:03.910
children are quite unique. For example,
00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:05.589
my sister-in-law has five children and
00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:07.430
they're all beautifully different to
00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:09.990
each other and the circumstances that
00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:12.710
you face as a family and as a couple are
00:41:12.720 --> 00:41:14.550
really unpredictable.
00:41:14.560 --> 00:41:17.750
So the best play plans can easily be
00:41:17.760 --> 00:41:22.870
unpick pack unpicked and uh defeated by
00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:25.750
life circumstances. But I think the fact
00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:28.309
that we had thought and talked and had
00:41:28.319 --> 00:41:30.630
an idea helped the you know that
00:41:30.640 --> 00:41:32.309
discipline planning helped us to think
00:41:32.319 --> 00:41:33.109
through.
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:35.190
>> But even you know your views on things
00:41:35.200 --> 00:41:37.829
around you know how you know are we
00:41:37.839 --> 00:41:40.470
going to buy our kids lots of toys or
00:41:40.480 --> 00:41:41.990
are we going to just show them
00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:44.150
adventure? Are we going to travel with
00:41:44.160 --> 00:41:45.910
them? Are we going to, you know, what
00:41:45.920 --> 00:41:47.670
what are the things that we want to show
00:41:47.680 --> 00:41:50.710
our children as as they're growing up?
00:41:50.720 --> 00:41:53.270
Um or, you know, there might be some
00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:55.910
attitudes that education is vital. So,
00:41:55.920 --> 00:41:58.309
we're just going to focus on, you know,
00:41:58.319 --> 00:42:00.069
putting them into really good education
00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:02.069
and getting really good jobs that we can
00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:03.829
pay for private schools. You know,
00:42:03.839 --> 00:42:05.109
there's lots of different ways that
00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:07.030
people can think about planning for
00:42:07.040 --> 00:42:11.030
raising other people, but I don't know
00:42:11.040 --> 00:42:12.790
how
00:42:12.800 --> 00:42:14.790
deep people go in conversations before
00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:16.790
they start a family or even you know
00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:18.069
getting together in the in a
00:42:18.079 --> 00:42:20.150
relationship. Is this the partner that I
00:42:20.160 --> 00:42:23.190
want to spend my life with building a
00:42:23.200 --> 00:42:26.550
family? You only have to look at um and
00:42:26.560 --> 00:42:28.470
talk about that later about you know
00:42:28.480 --> 00:42:31.190
family law here in Australia and how
00:42:31.200 --> 00:42:34.470
kids are often alienated from parents.
00:42:34.480 --> 00:42:36.550
You know is that does that discussion
00:42:36.560 --> 00:42:38.710
ever happen around if we break up how
00:42:38.720 --> 00:42:40.710
are we going to do that?
00:42:40.720 --> 00:42:45.990
Yeah, my sense is it's not and that that
00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:49.270
across almost all the parents I know the
00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:50.870
the education and health of their
00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:53.030
children is so important. It's so
00:42:53.040 --> 00:42:56.630
primary and they'd be willing to devote
00:42:56.640 --> 00:42:59.589
resources and give up other things to uh
00:42:59.599 --> 00:43:01.349
give their kids that opportunity. But
00:43:01.359 --> 00:43:02.950
I'll give you an example of how life got
00:43:02.960 --> 00:43:04.710
in the way for us. One of my best
00:43:04.720 --> 00:43:06.470
friends, he and his wife take their kids
00:43:06.480 --> 00:43:08.309
to a different country each year, which
00:43:08.319 --> 00:43:10.150
I think is wonderful in terms of culture
00:43:10.160 --> 00:43:12.230
and language and history and seeing
00:43:12.240 --> 00:43:14.230
things firsthand. Their kids are
00:43:14.240 --> 00:43:16.390
incredibly fortunate
00:43:16.400 --> 00:43:19.670
>> to have that perspective and we had
00:43:19.680 --> 00:43:22.390
wanted to do interstate travel and to,
00:43:22.400 --> 00:43:24.230
you know, meet family and spend time
00:43:24.240 --> 00:43:26.470
around different parts of Australia.
00:43:26.480 --> 00:43:28.390
Unfortunately, those bookings were made
00:43:28.400 --> 00:43:32.790
in late 2019 and early 2020 and ended up
00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:35.109
being uh knocked on the head by co
00:43:35.119 --> 00:43:37.109
>> was just stay at home.
00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:38.550
>> So, we had some vouchers there, some
00:43:38.560 --> 00:43:40.550
credit that couldn't be used for a very
00:43:40.560 --> 00:43:41.910
long period of time and eventually we
00:43:41.920 --> 00:43:43.750
chose to use it on something completely
00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:44.069
different.
00:43:44.079 --> 00:43:47.190
>> Yeah. And I guess there's something to
00:43:47.200 --> 00:43:49.190
be said for
00:43:49.200 --> 00:43:51.430
taking the leap of faith
00:43:51.440 --> 00:43:57.430
>> and um having uh lifelong commitment and
00:43:57.440 --> 00:44:01.030
uh love that is deeper than pure
00:44:01.040 --> 00:44:04.710
short-term emotion. Um,
00:44:04.720 --> 00:44:06.870
you know, the strength of the Christian
00:44:06.880 --> 00:44:09.270
covenant of marriage is that it binds
00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:11.990
together a man and a woman, a mother and
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:14.870
a father with the anticipation of of a
00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:16.790
lifelong union.
00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:18.390
>> And that's a very powerful foundation
00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:19.910
for children.
00:44:19.920 --> 00:44:22.390
>> It's a certainty. It's a stability. And
00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:25.910
certainly both my grandparents and Jen's
00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:28.950
grandparents entered the covenant of
00:44:28.960 --> 00:44:30.550
marriage with that expectation and with
00:44:30.560 --> 00:44:32.550
that commitment to each other. It wasn't
00:44:32.560 --> 00:44:35.030
that because things got tough on one
00:44:35.040 --> 00:44:37.829
particular day or one season of life
00:44:37.839 --> 00:44:39.750
that you know they suddenly looked for
00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:42.710
other options. Their families knew that
00:44:42.720 --> 00:44:45.030
that was permanent that it was binding.
00:44:45.040 --> 00:44:45.589
>> Yeah.
00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:49.829
>> And there's a a strong psychological
00:44:49.839 --> 00:44:51.670
insurance policy that's given to
00:44:51.680 --> 00:44:53.510
children. They benefit from that.
00:44:53.520 --> 00:44:55.910
>> They're the beneficiaries of that
00:44:55.920 --> 00:44:57.510
metaphorical insurance policy.
00:44:57.520 --> 00:44:59.030
>> But I guess the the choice in the
00:44:59.040 --> 00:45:01.109
beginning has to also be the right
00:45:01.119 --> 00:45:02.630
choice. And then if you've grown up, you
00:45:02.640 --> 00:45:04.710
know, it's that whole cycle of, you
00:45:04.720 --> 00:45:06.790
know, generational harm where, you know,
00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:08.550
you you only know what you've what
00:45:08.560 --> 00:45:10.309
you've seen. So, how you choose a
00:45:10.319 --> 00:45:12.630
partner. Um, you know, you go back to
00:45:12.640 --> 00:45:14.309
the days, you know, be before the
00:45:14.319 --> 00:45:16.630
feminist movement where women to be safe
00:45:16.640 --> 00:45:19.190
to move out of, you know, a a terrible
00:45:19.200 --> 00:45:22.710
household got married to leave. They're
00:45:22.720 --> 00:45:24.309
not necessarily thinking about what's
00:45:24.319 --> 00:45:26.710
going to make a good partner.
00:45:26.720 --> 00:45:29.349
and particular
00:45:29.359 --> 00:45:33.349
stories and examples have been over
00:45:33.359 --> 00:45:37.829
overly amplified because they speak to
00:45:37.839 --> 00:45:40.309
protecting females because they speak to
00:45:40.319 --> 00:45:40.790
the same
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:42.550
>> I guess that was just an example. I mean
00:45:42.560 --> 00:45:45.109
I could reverse that as well and you you
00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:46.630
use that for male I'm talking about
00:45:46.640 --> 00:45:48.390
people. I'm not necessarily talking
00:45:48.400 --> 00:45:50.630
about gender here, but people get into
00:45:50.640 --> 00:45:52.470
relationships for all different kinds of
00:45:52.480 --> 00:45:54.790
reasons. And sometimes it is a feeling
00:45:54.800 --> 00:45:56.630
that their life is going to be better or
00:45:56.640 --> 00:45:59.270
safer or different, not necessarily
00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:01.349
looking at the long game of is this the
00:46:01.359 --> 00:46:02.470
person for me.
00:46:02.480 --> 00:46:04.150
>> I wrote a book recently that had a big
00:46:04.160 --> 00:46:05.829
impact on me. It was about about
00:46:05.839 --> 00:46:07.990
marriage from a Christian perspective.
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:11.990
And the proposition or the the assertion
00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:15.270
was that perhaps marriage isn't about
00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:18.309
making us happy. Perhaps it's about a
00:46:18.319 --> 00:46:20.470
journey of deeper levels of
00:46:20.480 --> 00:46:21.990
understanding of yourself, about
00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:24.950
engaging with another person, about the
00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:26.630
commitment and the benefit that comes to
00:46:26.640 --> 00:46:29.190
your life and other people's lives from
00:46:29.200 --> 00:46:31.829
that long-term
00:46:31.839 --> 00:46:35.430
un inolvable commitment to each other.
00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:37.270
And this comes back to my response to
00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:39.109
your question.
00:46:39.119 --> 00:46:42.470
Maybe we've overemphasized the fleeting
00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:46.309
emotions and feelings of now and maybe
00:46:46.319 --> 00:46:49.589
we put too much response and action
00:46:49.599 --> 00:46:52.230
around those and because they are
00:46:52.240 --> 00:46:53.910
temporary and because they are ephemeral
00:46:53.920 --> 00:46:55.829
and because we can't rely on them we
00:46:55.839 --> 00:46:57.910
can't even rely on them as being an
00:46:57.920 --> 00:46:59.430
unbiased indicator of what we should do
00:46:59.440 --> 00:47:00.870
with our lives.
00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:02.470
>> So perhaps we shouldn't make
00:47:02.480 --> 00:47:05.829
lifechanging decisions that impact
00:47:05.839 --> 00:47:07.829
children, extended families and so on.
00:47:07.839 --> 00:47:10.550
One of the things I quote in my book
00:47:10.560 --> 00:47:13.910
about 12 years ago, there was a um
00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:15.349
report from the center for social
00:47:15.359 --> 00:47:18.230
justice which mentioned a statistic that
00:47:18.240 --> 00:47:21.910
1 million grandparents in the UK had
00:47:21.920 --> 00:47:24.550
been separated or alienated from their
00:47:24.560 --> 00:47:27.109
grandchildren which is a huge tragedy of
00:47:27.119 --> 00:47:30.309
societal level consequence
00:47:30.319 --> 00:47:33.349
and that flows from separation and child
00:47:33.359 --> 00:47:36.390
custody and family law. It's a huge
00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:38.790
tragedy. because that's part of the
00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:41.190
village. Those children have a
00:47:41.200 --> 00:47:43.670
fundamental human right to have their
00:47:43.680 --> 00:47:45.750
grandparents involved in their lives.
00:47:45.760 --> 00:47:47.990
They're biologically related.
00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:49.510
>> They deserve to have contact.
00:47:49.520 --> 00:47:51.030
>> Not to mention aunts and uncles and the
00:47:51.040 --> 00:47:52.710
whole the whole family village. But I
00:47:52.720 --> 00:47:54.950
mean that's a whole another rabbit hole
00:47:54.960 --> 00:47:57.510
to go down. But but it's a very real one
00:47:57.520 --> 00:48:00.309
as well. You know probably 95% of my
00:48:00.319 --> 00:48:02.470
private practice is men who are
00:48:02.480 --> 00:48:04.309
currently being alienated from their
00:48:04.319 --> 00:48:07.349
children. Um, and you can see, you know,
00:48:07.359 --> 00:48:08.790
that's where the grandparents will
00:48:08.800 --> 00:48:09.990
become involved as well. The
00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:13.910
grandparents who are also um alienated
00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:15.829
through that process. It's it's it's
00:48:15.839 --> 00:48:18.470
horrific. And you know who it impacts
00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:20.069
the most. And for the longest, it's the
00:48:20.079 --> 00:48:22.150
kids because they have to, you know,
00:48:22.160 --> 00:48:23.829
spend the rest of their lives trying to
00:48:23.839 --> 00:48:26.069
navigate through what happened when they
00:48:26.079 --> 00:48:27.589
had no choice.
00:48:27.599 --> 00:48:30.390
>> Um, but anyway, let's we could spend the
00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:32.230
rest of the show on that. Um, and I'm
00:48:32.240 --> 00:48:36.470
sure our listeners are going, "Move on.
00:48:36.480 --> 00:48:38.309
So, but we're talking about the book.
00:48:38.319 --> 00:48:40.630
We're on to the book, The Rel Relentless
00:48:40.640 --> 00:48:43.109
War and Masculinity. What was happening
00:48:43.119 --> 00:48:44.950
personally or culturally that made you
00:48:44.960 --> 00:48:46.870
feel this was the right time to put your
00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:48.950
thoughts into a book?
00:48:48.960 --> 00:48:51.670
>> So, I'm a passionate advocate for the
00:48:51.680 --> 00:48:54.390
education of boys and young men. For 30
00:48:54.400 --> 00:48:55.990
years, I've been following and
00:48:56.000 --> 00:48:57.030
interested in that, gathering
00:48:57.040 --> 00:48:59.829
statistics. And so I've been I've been
00:48:59.839 --> 00:49:02.069
tracking that for a long time, looking
00:49:02.079 --> 00:49:03.750
at the outcomes for boys in school,
00:49:03.760 --> 00:49:06.710
looking at the uh proportions of males
00:49:06.720 --> 00:49:08.150
and females in university and the types
00:49:08.160 --> 00:49:10.630
of courses that they're choosing. And it
00:49:10.640 --> 00:49:12.230
was crystallized when when my kids were
00:49:12.240 --> 00:49:14.870
born seven or eight years ago. But
00:49:14.880 --> 00:49:18.230
particularly what moved me to feel an
00:49:18.240 --> 00:49:21.510
urgency for writing the book was the
00:49:21.520 --> 00:49:24.549
change in the debates and discussions
00:49:24.559 --> 00:49:27.349
around the US election.
00:49:27.359 --> 00:49:30.549
because you had a situation where if you
00:49:30.559 --> 00:49:33.670
think back before the 2024 presidential
00:49:33.680 --> 00:49:35.349
election,
00:49:35.359 --> 00:49:38.790
the Democrats realized that they had a
00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:41.910
serious uh weakness in terms of not
00:49:41.920 --> 00:49:44.150
appealing to males
00:49:44.160 --> 00:49:46.230
and they put out this comical this
00:49:46.240 --> 00:49:48.950
farical advertisement in the end which
00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:51.349
was rightly mocked on the day that it
00:49:51.359 --> 00:49:53.990
was released. And it was clear during
00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:55.990
those election results that there had
00:49:56.000 --> 00:49:58.950
been a big swing of young men of men of
00:49:58.960 --> 00:50:01.430
most ages and including young women from
00:50:01.440 --> 00:50:05.750
Democrat to Republican. And I'd been
00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:08.230
listening watching influences from North
00:50:08.240 --> 00:50:10.150
America. I'd been quite curious about
00:50:10.160 --> 00:50:12.710
what was happening there about the um
00:50:12.720 --> 00:50:14.870
polarization and fragmentation in Gen
00:50:14.880 --> 00:50:17.829
Zed about young women shifting left,
00:50:17.839 --> 00:50:20.150
young men slightly shifting right or
00:50:20.160 --> 00:50:21.750
conservative.
00:50:21.760 --> 00:50:23.829
And what I sensed and what I picked up
00:50:23.839 --> 00:50:25.589
was that
00:50:25.599 --> 00:50:28.790
that election and the subsequent changes
00:50:28.800 --> 00:50:31.270
in policy and culture,
00:50:31.280 --> 00:50:33.270
I guessed that they would flow to
00:50:33.280 --> 00:50:35.990
Canada, UK and Australia because of how
00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:38.630
important the US is in in media and
00:50:38.640 --> 00:50:41.589
entertainment and uh also the creation
00:50:41.599 --> 00:50:43.430
of digital content. Now think about
00:50:43.440 --> 00:50:46.710
young people. They're not connected into
00:50:46.720 --> 00:50:48.710
mainstream media. They're not buying
00:50:48.720 --> 00:50:52.150
newspapers or watching television news.
00:50:52.160 --> 00:50:54.230
They're mostly sourcing their
00:50:54.240 --> 00:50:57.349
information from their phones and that's
00:50:57.359 --> 00:50:59.990
a completely permeable border. There's
00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:02.230
no border that stops at Australia and
00:51:02.240 --> 00:51:04.630
starts at whatever other country you're
00:51:04.640 --> 00:51:06.790
thinking about. So the content creators
00:51:06.800 --> 00:51:09.270
and the algorithms that are you know
00:51:09.280 --> 00:51:11.349
presenting them with with information of
00:51:11.359 --> 00:51:12.870
various quality dubious quality
00:51:12.880 --> 00:51:16.069
sometimes that transcends borders and
00:51:16.079 --> 00:51:21.030
boundaries and there's a real lack of
00:51:21.040 --> 00:51:22.710
influencers
00:51:22.720 --> 00:51:25.349
um in Australia who speak positively
00:51:25.359 --> 00:51:28.710
about males and masculinity. But in
00:51:28.720 --> 00:51:30.950
North America for example, there are
00:51:30.960 --> 00:51:34.390
many young women who at that time 12,
00:51:34.400 --> 00:51:37.990
18, 24 months ago had positive messages,
00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:41.430
encouraging messages, um messages of
00:51:41.440 --> 00:51:45.030
seeing positive virtue in young men, of
00:51:45.040 --> 00:51:47.270
um speaking to those audiences, of
00:51:47.280 --> 00:51:50.630
vocalizing the thoughts and feelings of
00:51:50.640 --> 00:51:53.829
boys and teenagers and young men. And my
00:51:53.839 --> 00:51:57.670
guess was that um that would be a wave
00:51:57.680 --> 00:51:59.990
and I wanted to quickly get onto that
00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:01.510
movement
00:52:01.520 --> 00:52:03.990
because the conversations I was having
00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:07.349
in Australia 2 or 3 years ago, people
00:52:07.359 --> 00:52:09.030
were sharing honestly about their
00:52:09.040 --> 00:52:11.510
concerns for their their sons and for
00:52:11.520 --> 00:52:14.790
young men and they were honestly
00:52:14.800 --> 00:52:17.670
expressing empathy, concern about
00:52:17.680 --> 00:52:19.510
education, health, wellbeing, suicide,
00:52:19.520 --> 00:52:21.990
all those things. But they felt so
00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:23.190
uncomfortable about saying that
00:52:23.200 --> 00:52:26.230
publicly. And so I sensed that there
00:52:26.240 --> 00:52:28.950
would be a movement towards this wave
00:52:28.960 --> 00:52:30.870
where people would feel emboldened
00:52:30.880 --> 00:52:32.549
actually to speak up to speak their
00:52:32.559 --> 00:52:35.190
truth. And I believe that's happened to
00:52:35.200 --> 00:52:37.349
an extent, but it's got a lot further to
00:52:37.359 --> 00:52:38.230
go.
00:52:38.240 --> 00:52:41.190
>> Oh, absolutely. I agree with you. I I
00:52:41.200 --> 00:52:43.750
could even go, you know, further back
00:52:43.760 --> 00:52:47.670
and um you know, probably maybe 10 years
00:52:47.680 --> 00:52:49.829
ago and see where we were at in terms of
00:52:49.839 --> 00:52:52.230
being able to speak openly about some of
00:52:52.240 --> 00:52:55.030
the concerns around men and boys health
00:52:55.040 --> 00:52:57.109
where we are now. it has it's shifted
00:52:57.119 --> 00:52:59.030
dramatically and you know that's thanks
00:52:59.040 --> 00:53:01.270
to you know many organizations
00:53:01.280 --> 00:53:02.790
fortunately you know Movember have done
00:53:02.800 --> 00:53:04.950
a very good job from you know going from
00:53:04.960 --> 00:53:07.030
a you know just a charity that raises
00:53:07.040 --> 00:53:09.349
money in november
00:53:09.359 --> 00:53:12.150
in November
00:53:12.160 --> 00:53:14.870
>> to becoming more involved in you know
00:53:14.880 --> 00:53:19.270
policy making or um advocacy in a way
00:53:19.280 --> 00:53:20.950
that really really does include
00:53:20.960 --> 00:53:23.430
everybody in the conversation. I think
00:53:23.440 --> 00:53:25.430
it's a lot more palatable and and yet
00:53:25.440 --> 00:53:26.950
that shift into policy. I mean they have
00:53:26.960 --> 00:53:29.030
the money, they have the ear ears of
00:53:29.040 --> 00:53:32.150
many governments. Um so so why not? And
00:53:32.160 --> 00:53:33.750
I think that's really shifted the dial
00:53:33.760 --> 00:53:35.589
going from just go and have a beer with
00:53:35.599 --> 00:53:37.589
your mates and you'll be fine to
00:53:37.599 --> 00:53:40.309
actually really getting closer to well
00:53:40.319 --> 00:53:42.710
what systems do we need to put in place
00:53:42.720 --> 00:53:46.150
um to make things better for for men and
00:53:46.160 --> 00:53:47.190
boys.
00:53:47.200 --> 00:53:49.990
>> I'm not a universal um supporter of
00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:52.470
Movember. Uh, I think they've played it
00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:53.990
a very safe game.
00:53:54.000 --> 00:53:56.790
>> Oh, but it's it's evolution. It's as as
00:53:56.800 --> 00:53:58.950
we discussed on the phone or on Zoom
00:53:58.960 --> 00:54:00.710
that time, you know, they've gone from
00:54:00.720 --> 00:54:02.470
this charity where it was just a bunch
00:54:02.480 --> 00:54:03.910
of guys sort of getting together and
00:54:03.920 --> 00:54:05.750
growing a mo to where they are now.
00:54:05.760 --> 00:54:07.109
This, you know, it hasn't taken very
00:54:07.119 --> 00:54:09.829
long to get there. So, I'm again looking
00:54:09.839 --> 00:54:11.750
at the long the long term here and
00:54:11.760 --> 00:54:13.510
seeing what bricks they're putting in
00:54:13.520 --> 00:54:16.309
the wall very gradually. Um, you know, I
00:54:16.319 --> 00:54:17.910
think even their production of the real
00:54:17.920 --> 00:54:20.470
face of men's health in, you know, in
00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:22.390
all of their main markets being Canada,
00:54:22.400 --> 00:54:25.750
Ireland, New Zealand, Australia, the US,
00:54:25.760 --> 00:54:29.750
um, has really, really great pieces of
00:54:29.760 --> 00:54:31.670
work that start conversations very
00:54:31.680 --> 00:54:33.670
similar to your book. I mean, your book,
00:54:33.680 --> 00:54:35.109
you know, you could sit down and read it
00:54:35.119 --> 00:54:36.390
cover to cover and go, "Yeah, that was
00:54:36.400 --> 00:54:38.950
that was a good read." or what I like
00:54:38.960 --> 00:54:40.950
about it is it can be pulled apart as
00:54:40.960 --> 00:54:44.150
separate discussion points um for people
00:54:44.160 --> 00:54:46.230
to have about particular topics relating
00:54:46.240 --> 00:54:48.470
to men that also affect women and
00:54:48.480 --> 00:54:50.390
children. And I think that's what
00:54:50.400 --> 00:54:52.309
Movember is moving towards as well.
00:54:52.319 --> 00:54:54.230
these, you know, these publications or
00:54:54.240 --> 00:54:56.230
these papers that they've produced have,
00:54:56.240 --> 00:54:57.750
you know, pulled the world together,
00:54:57.760 --> 00:54:59.109
pulled all countries of the world
00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:01.990
together to collaborate and contribute
00:55:02.000 --> 00:55:05.750
to these to these um publications that
00:55:05.760 --> 00:55:09.430
are now causing conversations. So, love
00:55:09.440 --> 00:55:12.470
or hate Movember, who cares? If they can
00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:14.309
get the conversation going, if they can
00:55:14.319 --> 00:55:16.390
get governments to listen, I'm all for
00:55:16.400 --> 00:55:17.510
it.
00:55:17.520 --> 00:55:18.950
I'd like there to be broader
00:55:18.960 --> 00:55:20.630
conversations and a real reflection of
00:55:20.640 --> 00:55:23.990
the heterogeneity of all males because
00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:25.910
my sense is the issues that they've
00:55:25.920 --> 00:55:29.510
chosen to to focus on have been
00:55:29.520 --> 00:55:31.670
politically correct acceptable to
00:55:31.680 --> 00:55:37.109
feminists um have been mostly leftist or
00:55:37.119 --> 00:55:39.910
uh progressive extensions of progressive
00:55:39.920 --> 00:55:42.710
policy and that there's a much much
00:55:42.720 --> 00:55:44.790
bigger playing field here. I hear that
00:55:44.800 --> 00:55:47.030
in conversations with men and women
00:55:47.040 --> 00:55:49.270
>> and that um given that they're the best
00:55:49.280 --> 00:55:52.630
funded nonprofit and that they do aspire
00:55:52.640 --> 00:55:54.870
to a broader positive vision for men's
00:55:54.880 --> 00:55:57.109
health, there are many areas I believe
00:55:57.119 --> 00:55:58.950
that are unressed in their service
00:55:58.960 --> 00:56:01.190
delivery and their advocacy
00:56:01.200 --> 00:56:03.190
>> and I I agree with that. That's where
00:56:03.200 --> 00:56:05.750
they're at at the moment. But in terms
00:56:05.760 --> 00:56:08.230
of the the global collaboration and who
00:56:08.240 --> 00:56:09.270
they're bringing into those
00:56:09.280 --> 00:56:12.150
conversations for example they engage us
00:56:12.160 --> 00:56:14.150
at global action on men's health because
00:56:14.160 --> 00:56:16.150
there things that they don't know
00:56:16.160 --> 00:56:18.950
>> that we do you know they engage um you
00:56:18.960 --> 00:56:20.230
know especially what's happening in the
00:56:20.240 --> 00:56:22.390
UK at the moment with the men's health
00:56:22.400 --> 00:56:24.470
strategy that's you know that's that's
00:56:24.480 --> 00:56:26.549
now got legs and that's you know
00:56:26.559 --> 00:56:28.950
inspired Canada to do the same and you
00:56:28.960 --> 00:56:31.190
know those things are also going on at
00:56:31.200 --> 00:56:33.829
the same time which you know I think the
00:56:33.839 --> 00:56:35.349
men's health sector is just so
00:56:35.359 --> 00:56:37.750
incredibly fragmented not only here in
00:56:37.760 --> 00:56:40.309
Australia but globally. I think give it
00:56:40.319 --> 00:56:43.750
time. It has to be given time and I
00:56:43.760 --> 00:56:45.829
think that yeah I think Movember does
00:56:45.839 --> 00:56:48.470
play a role a significant role but not
00:56:48.480 --> 00:56:49.910
the only role. They're not the only
00:56:49.920 --> 00:56:51.430
player and I don't think that they think
00:56:51.440 --> 00:56:52.470
they are either.
00:56:52.480 --> 00:56:54.710
>> It's a good insight to hear from you and
00:56:54.720 --> 00:56:55.910
in Australia we can
00:56:55.920 --> 00:56:57.589
>> I'm not advocating for Movember. I'm
00:56:57.599 --> 00:57:00.069
just that's just how I see it. Well,
00:57:00.079 --> 00:57:01.270
it's really valuable that we can hear
00:57:01.280 --> 00:57:03.750
that from you that you've got that that
00:57:03.760 --> 00:57:05.589
position at the table at Global Action
00:57:05.599 --> 00:57:07.670
for Men's Health and that you're seeing
00:57:07.680 --> 00:57:09.430
that type of collaboration
00:57:09.440 --> 00:57:11.589
>> and I'm hopeful too. I'm optimistic and
00:57:11.599 --> 00:57:13.750
I'd like to see that expansion and I
00:57:13.760 --> 00:57:14.789
think actually there's a moral
00:57:14.799 --> 00:57:17.109
obligation on the board and the
00:57:17.119 --> 00:57:19.589
executive of November to expand the
00:57:19.599 --> 00:57:21.670
range of services and support
00:57:21.680 --> 00:57:26.069
>> because of um the clear um and measured
00:57:26.079 --> 00:57:28.309
need but also because of the
00:57:28.319 --> 00:57:30.630
extraordinarily positive social impact
00:57:30.640 --> 00:57:32.870
that would come from small investments
00:57:32.880 --> 00:57:35.190
in those areas. Whereas doubling down
00:57:35.200 --> 00:57:38.069
and tripling down and staying safe isn't
00:57:38.079 --> 00:57:40.069
going to have anywhere near the return
00:57:40.079 --> 00:57:43.670
socially that we could see from
00:57:43.680 --> 00:57:45.670
>> But in the current climate where you
00:57:45.680 --> 00:57:47.349
actually do need to get a seat at the
00:57:47.359 --> 00:57:49.750
table with the right people, you can't
00:57:49.760 --> 00:57:51.750
offend everybody to get there. Sometimes
00:57:51.760 --> 00:57:55.109
you just got to clear a smoothest path
00:57:55.119 --> 00:57:57.270
you can to get to where you need and
00:57:57.280 --> 00:57:59.109
then you do the work. Just to piss
00:57:59.119 --> 00:58:01.349
everybody off before you even get there,
00:58:01.359 --> 00:58:03.750
I I don't think would ever work. And I
00:58:03.760 --> 00:58:06.390
think that's why bringing women into the
00:58:06.400 --> 00:58:07.910
conversation
00:58:07.920 --> 00:58:10.390
has been a great move on many parts of
00:58:10.400 --> 00:58:12.710
the sector because number one, women
00:58:12.720 --> 00:58:14.470
have advocated for themselves
00:58:14.480 --> 00:58:16.470
extraordinarily well. I mean, you go
00:58:16.480 --> 00:58:18.789
back, you know, to the 60s, you know,
00:58:18.799 --> 00:58:21.349
and and before then when women just know
00:58:21.359 --> 00:58:23.109
how to advocate. They've done an
00:58:23.119 --> 00:58:27.030
incredible job. Why are men still men
00:58:27.040 --> 00:58:29.910
still haven't launched? What is missing?
00:58:29.920 --> 00:58:31.829
And I think if we can learn from what
00:58:31.839 --> 00:58:34.150
women have done and you know give men
00:58:34.160 --> 00:58:35.829
the confidence to be able to not do the
00:58:35.839 --> 00:58:38.069
same thing but you know what is it that
00:58:38.079 --> 00:58:40.950
men aren't doing for themselves that is
00:58:40.960 --> 00:58:43.349
not is not raising
00:58:43.359 --> 00:58:46.230
their their wellbeing. So firstly, I'd
00:58:46.240 --> 00:58:49.270
come back to the innate
00:58:49.280 --> 00:58:52.069
bias that I think all people give to
00:58:52.079 --> 00:58:54.390
uplifting and cherishing females,
00:58:54.400 --> 00:58:56.950
particularly around the future
00:58:56.960 --> 00:58:58.710
generation, around reproduction, around
00:58:58.720 --> 00:59:02.150
the the beautiful, unique, incredibly
00:59:02.160 --> 00:59:05.349
important aspect of um being a mother
00:59:05.359 --> 00:59:07.430
and raising children um and nurturing
00:59:07.440 --> 00:59:09.589
for the next generation. there. There's
00:59:09.599 --> 00:59:12.549
a lot to learn tactically that men need
00:59:12.559 --> 00:59:14.789
to understand that we've been completely
00:59:14.799 --> 00:59:16.390
outplayed
00:59:16.400 --> 00:59:19.910
that we've been focused too narrowly on
00:59:19.920 --> 00:59:23.829
our own interest that we haven't been um
00:59:23.839 --> 00:59:26.789
engaging enough uh collaborative enough.
00:59:26.799 --> 00:59:28.390
There are some differences in
00:59:28.400 --> 00:59:30.309
communication style and collaboration
00:59:30.319 --> 00:59:32.230
between males and females. typical
00:59:32.240 --> 00:59:33.670
clustering of
00:59:33.680 --> 00:59:34.630
>> differences.
00:59:34.640 --> 00:59:36.789
>> And we need to reflect on that because
00:59:36.799 --> 00:59:41.750
the particular forms of activism and um
00:59:41.760 --> 00:59:45.109
cooperation and uh successful lobbying
00:59:45.119 --> 00:59:47.190
for change, they're unlikely to be the
00:59:47.200 --> 00:59:50.870
same between males and females. And one
00:59:50.880 --> 00:59:53.990
of the areas that that shines through is
00:59:54.000 --> 00:59:55.750
in terms of the manosphere and how
00:59:55.760 --> 00:59:59.109
important online spaces are for males.
00:59:59.119 --> 01:00:01.910
If you recognize that men might be less
01:00:01.920 --> 01:00:04.230
likely to reach out face to face and
01:00:04.240 --> 01:00:06.069
feel intimidated, but also they might be
01:00:06.079 --> 01:00:10.710
more focused on work or um career or
01:00:10.720 --> 01:00:15.270
being uh in jobs that are ownorous. They
01:00:15.280 --> 01:00:18.069
don't have that chance to meet in person
01:00:18.079 --> 01:00:21.109
or to gather in groups or to turn up for
01:00:21.119 --> 01:00:22.630
protests and other things. That's that's
01:00:22.640 --> 01:00:24.150
partly why the manosphere has been so
01:00:24.160 --> 01:00:26.390
important because it's a way of tapping
01:00:26.400 --> 01:00:29.349
in geographically to other people with
01:00:29.359 --> 01:00:31.510
common interests, having support groups
01:00:31.520 --> 01:00:35.270
that don't rely on you turning up uh in
01:00:35.280 --> 01:00:37.510
person and being available for
01:00:37.520 --> 01:00:40.470
>> just relying on men men just to do that
01:00:40.480 --> 01:00:42.549
solely. And you see Australia is very
01:00:42.559 --> 01:00:44.549
good at that in the grassroots men's
01:00:44.559 --> 01:00:46.549
health movement is that there are so
01:00:46.559 --> 01:00:49.430
many examples. You know, men's table,
01:00:49.440 --> 01:00:51.510
we've got, you know, the tough guy book
01:00:51.520 --> 01:00:53.910
club, we've got you manual, we've got
01:00:53.920 --> 01:00:55.349
all of those really fragmented groups
01:00:55.359 --> 01:00:58.069
that that do that. But you talked about
01:00:58.079 --> 01:01:01.750
something about um gynoentrism. Is that
01:01:01.760 --> 01:01:03.990
is it gyno? gyocent
01:01:04.000 --> 01:01:06.309
>> centrism particularly when it comes um
01:01:06.319 --> 01:01:08.789
becomes embedded with institutions and
01:01:08.799 --> 01:01:10.870
certain perspectives um become the
01:01:10.880 --> 01:01:13.349
default lens in education, family law,
01:01:13.359 --> 01:01:16.309
health policy or public funding. Um and
01:01:16.319 --> 01:01:18.789
I think that really sort of made sense
01:01:18.799 --> 01:01:22.069
to me as well is that we don't create
01:01:22.079 --> 01:01:24.630
male friendly services. We you know in
01:01:24.640 --> 01:01:26.390
workplace where I spend a lot of my
01:01:26.400 --> 01:01:28.789
time, you know, gender responsive
01:01:28.799 --> 01:01:32.230
systems do not exist yet. It's all
01:01:32.240 --> 01:01:34.950
generic. So, you know, I mean,
01:01:34.960 --> 01:01:37.349
biologically we, you know, we're
01:01:37.359 --> 01:01:38.470
different. We come with different
01:01:38.480 --> 01:01:40.870
challenges. You know, menopause isn't
01:01:40.880 --> 01:01:43.190
even really acknowledged in workplace.
01:01:43.200 --> 01:01:45.109
Massive issue
01:01:45.119 --> 01:01:48.069
>> um for men and women in workplaces for
01:01:48.079 --> 01:01:51.349
both. So, I think I said a lot there I
01:01:51.359 --> 01:01:54.470
guess about the same thing.
01:01:54.480 --> 01:01:56.470
you would have a lot of experience in
01:01:56.480 --> 01:01:59.349
connecting to and reaching and engaging
01:01:59.359 --> 01:02:03.109
with men and and I think from your from
01:02:03.119 --> 01:02:04.710
your lived experience I'm sure you
01:02:04.720 --> 01:02:06.710
understand the ways that tend to work
01:02:06.720 --> 01:02:08.789
and and the ways that are less likely to
01:02:08.799 --> 01:02:10.069
be successful
01:02:10.079 --> 01:02:11.349
>> and like you said there are lots of
01:02:11.359 --> 01:02:12.950
examples of that in Australia fathering
01:02:12.960 --> 01:02:15.109
project goes into into schools and
01:02:15.119 --> 01:02:17.349
workplaces and uh men's tables an
01:02:17.359 --> 01:02:19.270
interesting one where it's a minimal
01:02:19.280 --> 01:02:21.109
commitment right so it's only once a
01:02:21.119 --> 01:02:21.670
month
01:02:21.680 --> 01:02:22.870
>> it's turning up for a dinner
01:02:22.880 --> 01:02:25.030
>> but It's not it's not systemic though.
01:02:25.040 --> 01:02:27.829
It's it's not creating this, you know,
01:02:27.839 --> 01:02:32.150
just global systemic approach to people.
01:02:32.160 --> 01:02:34.309
>> It's it's very isolated and it's
01:02:34.319 --> 01:02:37.030
dependent on men reaching out rather
01:02:37.040 --> 01:02:39.430
than meeting men where they are.
01:02:39.440 --> 01:02:39.990
>> Yeah.
01:02:40.000 --> 01:02:41.190
>> And I think that's where we have the
01:02:41.200 --> 01:02:42.789
opportunity in workplace is because
01:02:42.799 --> 01:02:44.549
we're meeting them where they are. And
01:02:44.559 --> 01:02:46.710
if we can create systems and policies
01:02:46.720 --> 01:02:49.190
and approach that's already embedded in
01:02:49.200 --> 01:02:52.390
workplace, men do men will go.
01:02:52.400 --> 01:02:54.630
Absolutely. If it feels safe
01:02:54.640 --> 01:02:56.470
>> and it feels like it's designed for them
01:02:56.480 --> 01:02:59.349
in mind, they will they will go.
01:02:59.359 --> 01:03:00.549
>> But then when you talk about that
01:03:00.559 --> 01:03:03.589
gyocentrism, gyocentrism and the
01:03:03.599 --> 01:03:05.510
institutionalization of that, you can
01:03:05.520 --> 01:03:07.990
see that, you know, you go to, you know,
01:03:08.000 --> 01:03:10.630
doctor's surgeries or you go to even
01:03:10.640 --> 01:03:13.030
maternal health care centers where now
01:03:13.040 --> 01:03:16.309
men are taking their children. Um, men
01:03:16.319 --> 01:03:18.710
who, you know, choose to stay at home
01:03:18.720 --> 01:03:21.510
with their kids. um and it's very very
01:03:21.520 --> 01:03:23.990
embedded with you know female centric
01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:25.109
support.
01:03:25.119 --> 01:03:26.710
>> I've had examples of men in the
01:03:26.720 --> 01:03:29.510
workplace seeking to establish a men's
01:03:29.520 --> 01:03:33.109
group in the parallel of the groups that
01:03:33.119 --> 01:03:35.029
support and bring together women
01:03:35.039 --> 01:03:37.349
including women in leadership and
01:03:37.359 --> 01:03:39.430
they've had a huge amount of resistance
01:03:39.440 --> 01:03:41.349
from HR and from their teams and they've
01:03:41.359 --> 01:03:43.190
been stigmatized you know in some cases
01:03:43.200 --> 01:03:46.309
attempts to cancel and disrupt what
01:03:46.319 --> 01:03:48.069
they're trying to do which is completely
01:03:48.079 --> 01:03:50.470
well-intentioned. All it's doing is
01:03:50.480 --> 01:03:52.950
seeking to have the similar support
01:03:52.960 --> 01:03:55.430
structures that have benefited females
01:03:55.440 --> 01:03:57.190
in the workplace and they can see a
01:03:57.200 --> 01:03:58.549
clear need there
01:03:58.559 --> 01:04:00.870
>> and they're being heavily pushed back
01:04:00.880 --> 01:04:03.109
against. When I get to the the final
01:04:03.119 --> 01:04:05.510
chapter in the book, I do talk about
01:04:05.520 --> 01:04:07.589
co-designing particularly health
01:04:07.599 --> 01:04:08.309
services.
01:04:08.319 --> 01:04:08.870
>> Yeah.
01:04:08.880 --> 01:04:11.670
>> Where a much bigger effort I believe
01:04:11.680 --> 01:04:14.710
needs to be put into listening to men.
01:04:14.720 --> 01:04:16.309
sometimes boys, but it's obviously
01:04:16.319 --> 01:04:18.789
mostly men in terms of the delivery and
01:04:18.799 --> 01:04:20.950
the access of those services
01:04:20.960 --> 01:04:23.349
>> in uh that that requires leadership from
01:04:23.359 --> 01:04:25.029
the top of bureaucracies and from
01:04:25.039 --> 01:04:28.549
political decision makers. Uh because at
01:04:28.559 --> 01:04:30.789
the small scale, you can tailor a
01:04:30.799 --> 01:04:32.630
service, but then you won't get the
01:04:32.640 --> 01:04:36.549
systemwide benefits of of having that
01:04:36.559 --> 01:04:39.270
service welcome and engage with and
01:04:39.280 --> 01:04:41.349
deliver positive outcomes for male
01:04:41.359 --> 01:04:42.789
patients and beneficiaries.
01:04:42.799 --> 01:04:44.549
>> Education as well, doesn't it? So the
01:04:44.559 --> 01:04:46.390
public health network or the public
01:04:46.400 --> 01:04:47.910
health system
01:04:47.920 --> 01:04:50.230
>> should be educated on how you know to
01:04:50.240 --> 01:04:52.390
work with men. Things like social
01:04:52.400 --> 01:04:54.789
prescription for example is something
01:04:54.799 --> 01:04:57.430
that happens in in isolation still not a
01:04:57.440 --> 01:04:59.589
lot of people understand what social
01:04:59.599 --> 01:05:01.510
prescription is and how it particularly
01:05:01.520 --> 01:05:03.910
works for men and for women. But you
01:05:03.920 --> 01:05:05.670
know instead of going to the doctor and
01:05:05.680 --> 01:05:07.029
you know whatever's going on in your
01:05:07.039 --> 01:05:08.630
life that you're feeling depressed
01:05:08.640 --> 01:05:10.230
instead of you know you're getting
01:05:10.240 --> 01:05:12.390
anti-depressants. Oh there's a men's
01:05:12.400 --> 01:05:14.470
shed down the road. there's a man's
01:05:14.480 --> 01:05:16.470
table, whatever it might be. There's
01:05:16.480 --> 01:05:18.150
plenty of things in your community that
01:05:18.160 --> 01:05:21.510
you can also access as as medicine.
01:05:21.520 --> 01:05:23.510
>> Um, and I think that's a really really
01:05:23.520 --> 01:05:25.510
cool approach to men's health, but we
01:05:25.520 --> 01:05:29.349
need to be able to educate the providers
01:05:29.359 --> 01:05:31.029
>> to be able to feel comfortable and
01:05:31.039 --> 01:05:33.029
knowledgeable to be able to prescribe
01:05:33.039 --> 01:05:33.670
that.
01:05:33.680 --> 01:05:34.789
>> Yeah, absolutely.
01:05:34.799 --> 01:05:38.870
>> Um, so again, this fix it mentality that
01:05:38.880 --> 01:05:40.870
we have for men, just fix them, just
01:05:40.880 --> 01:05:43.430
make them better. and then we're we're
01:05:43.440 --> 01:05:46.630
good to go. Need to sort of meet men
01:05:46.640 --> 01:05:48.870
where they are and understand what they
01:05:48.880 --> 01:05:51.270
need and make them part of the
01:05:51.280 --> 01:05:54.150
conversation rather than ex excluding
01:05:54.160 --> 01:05:56.150
them from the conversation. And I think
01:05:56.160 --> 01:05:58.309
that's probably one of the key factors
01:05:58.319 --> 01:06:00.390
that I see is that men just aren't
01:06:00.400 --> 01:06:02.950
included.
01:06:02.960 --> 01:06:07.029
>> But the continuing to stay quiet isn't
01:06:07.039 --> 01:06:09.910
the solution. We need to speak up
01:06:09.920 --> 01:06:11.829
boldly. But then you go through what
01:06:11.839 --> 01:06:13.910
your example of the workplace and men
01:06:13.920 --> 01:06:15.670
wanting to create a group where they can
01:06:15.680 --> 01:06:17.829
get together and work out some ideas of
01:06:17.839 --> 01:06:19.910
how to how to be, how to support, how
01:06:19.920 --> 01:06:22.390
to, you know, how to prosper better and
01:06:22.400 --> 01:06:24.549
those things get shut down. So then
01:06:24.559 --> 01:06:26.549
where does one go with that?
01:06:26.559 --> 01:06:28.789
>> But remember in the first wave of
01:06:28.799 --> 01:06:30.150
feminism and the second wave of
01:06:30.160 --> 01:06:32.710
feminism, it wasn't easy for the women
01:06:32.720 --> 01:06:34.710
and men who were at the vanguard of
01:06:34.720 --> 01:06:37.430
that. They were not just welcomed in and
01:06:37.440 --> 01:06:38.549
yeah, we're going to give you everything
01:06:38.559 --> 01:06:41.829
you want. So, this won't be easy and it
01:06:41.839 --> 01:06:43.430
will require persistence and
01:06:43.440 --> 01:06:47.109
collaboration and convincing and um much
01:06:47.119 --> 01:06:50.630
better thoughtful long-term advocacy. It
01:06:50.640 --> 01:06:53.829
it won't happen in a day or a week or a
01:06:53.839 --> 01:06:56.549
year. This is a a multi-deade
01:06:56.559 --> 01:06:59.910
swing from overreach back towards social
01:06:59.920 --> 01:07:01.510
health and harmony.
01:07:01.520 --> 01:07:03.670
>> It's going to take a lot of work and a
01:07:03.680 --> 01:07:04.630
lot of effort.
01:07:04.640 --> 01:07:06.309
>> Well, that's right. And arguing about it
01:07:06.319 --> 01:07:08.950
is not the answer. at being proactive
01:07:08.960 --> 01:07:10.870
and inclusive probably gets a bit
01:07:10.880 --> 01:07:12.870
closer. And fortunately, we've now got
01:07:12.880 --> 01:07:15.430
some of those frameworks in place, you
01:07:15.440 --> 01:07:17.270
know, diversity, equity, inclusion,
01:07:17.280 --> 01:07:18.950
belonging, all of those things that are
01:07:18.960 --> 01:07:21.829
now essential in workplaces.
01:07:21.839 --> 01:07:23.589
We haven't got it right yet by a long
01:07:23.599 --> 01:07:25.589
stretch. What that actually means in
01:07:25.599 --> 01:07:27.349
workplace, but we're evolving towards
01:07:27.359 --> 01:07:29.910
it. Um, and I think those s sort of
01:07:29.920 --> 01:07:31.670
things create, you know, I've done a lot
01:07:31.680 --> 01:07:34.390
of men's health um, presentations in
01:07:34.400 --> 01:07:37.829
workplaces under that banner. And so
01:07:37.839 --> 01:07:40.789
that's really really inspiring that um,
01:07:40.799 --> 01:07:43.910
organizations are recognizing that
01:07:43.920 --> 01:07:47.430
diversity, equity, and inclusion also
01:07:47.440 --> 01:07:49.430
fits with what it feels like being a man
01:07:49.440 --> 01:07:52.309
in a workplace. And in terms of the next
01:07:52.319 --> 01:07:56.150
steps, I believe we need to broaden and
01:07:56.160 --> 01:08:00.309
expand inclusion to actually include
01:08:00.319 --> 01:08:02.390
males, to actually listen to male
01:08:02.400 --> 01:08:05.190
voices. If you think about what we could
01:08:05.200 --> 01:08:07.750
what um what the advocates for men and
01:08:07.760 --> 01:08:09.589
boys could do, we could seek to
01:08:09.599 --> 01:08:11.430
overthrow complete systems and bring
01:08:11.440 --> 01:08:13.430
down DEI and all that sort of stuff, you
01:08:13.440 --> 01:08:15.109
know, get the woke out of universities,
01:08:15.119 --> 01:08:19.829
whatever. But or we could specifically
01:08:19.839 --> 01:08:23.590
argue for inclusion to have a lens that
01:08:23.600 --> 01:08:26.550
actually includes that's what was
01:08:26.560 --> 01:08:28.870
intended and that's the morally
01:08:28.880 --> 01:08:33.189
justifiable way to further implement
01:08:33.199 --> 01:08:36.309
that as a goal that benefits everyone
01:08:36.319 --> 01:08:36.789
and
01:08:36.799 --> 01:08:37.990
>> but I think we got to move away from
01:08:38.000 --> 01:08:39.749
gender when it comes to inclusion or
01:08:39.759 --> 01:08:42.229
diversity as well because you know
01:08:42.239 --> 01:08:45.189
diversity is of anything you're thinking
01:08:45.199 --> 01:08:47.349
you know how you see the world got
01:08:47.359 --> 01:08:48.789
nothing to do with gender. And I don't
01:08:48.799 --> 01:08:51.829
think exclusion or exclusion has to do
01:08:51.839 --> 01:08:53.349
with gender either.
01:08:53.359 --> 01:08:56.309
>> It's you you're either not or you are.
01:08:56.319 --> 01:08:58.550
>> Um depending on why you're being
01:08:58.560 --> 01:09:00.390
excluded. Am I being excluded because of
01:09:00.400 --> 01:09:02.870
my beliefs? Am I being excluded because
01:09:02.880 --> 01:09:05.110
of the way my hair's cut, my tattoos? I
01:09:05.120 --> 01:09:06.470
don't that's got nothing to do with
01:09:06.480 --> 01:09:07.189
gender.
01:09:07.199 --> 01:09:09.110
>> My sense is most people have moved on
01:09:09.120 --> 01:09:10.950
from that. There's some people in
01:09:10.960 --> 01:09:13.269
positions of power and elites who still
01:09:13.279 --> 01:09:15.590
want to have hang-ups about female
01:09:15.600 --> 01:09:18.309
quotas and about percentages and about
01:09:18.319 --> 01:09:21.590
agenda lens on inclusion. But my sense
01:09:21.600 --> 01:09:23.829
actually down at the cafe and in the pub
01:09:23.839 --> 01:09:25.590
and out on the footpath and in the
01:09:25.600 --> 01:09:28.149
pickups at school, I think most people
01:09:28.159 --> 01:09:31.030
just have moved on and they accept that
01:09:31.040 --> 01:09:34.950
there is a much broader um range of
01:09:34.960 --> 01:09:36.550
perspectives here that we need to think
01:09:36.560 --> 01:09:38.149
about cognitive diversity, not just
01:09:38.159 --> 01:09:41.110
about um superficial or representational
01:09:41.120 --> 01:09:43.189
diversity. So yeah, I I think
01:09:43.199 --> 01:09:44.630
>> I think there's a lot more settings that
01:09:44.640 --> 01:09:46.789
you might not hang out in that are still
01:09:46.799 --> 01:09:50.470
very very traditional and um yeah,
01:09:50.480 --> 01:09:53.430
haven't evolved much at all.
01:09:53.440 --> 01:09:55.910
>> M especially if you look at the you know
01:09:55.920 --> 01:09:59.189
the mostly male high-risk heavy industry
01:09:59.199 --> 01:10:01.830
um that you know you know is populated
01:10:01.840 --> 01:10:04.390
you know takes up so so much space in
01:10:04.400 --> 01:10:06.229
this country a lot of it still sits
01:10:06.239 --> 01:10:07.990
there. you go to remote part parts of
01:10:08.000 --> 01:10:12.149
Australia, um it's it's all still there.
01:10:12.159 --> 01:10:13.350
>> Yeah, there's a big contrast
01:10:13.360 --> 01:10:15.750
>> and it affects people and it's it's no
01:10:15.760 --> 01:10:17.350
still nobody's fault.
01:10:17.360 --> 01:10:19.110
>> It's part of just how we're evolving
01:10:19.120 --> 01:10:22.950
into it and you know and reach.
01:10:22.960 --> 01:10:24.630
>> Well, what I'm focused on at the moment
01:10:24.640 --> 01:10:30.070
is translating this wave of um
01:10:30.080 --> 01:10:33.110
interest and discussion about men and
01:10:33.120 --> 01:10:36.550
boys to concrete action. I I think it'll
01:10:36.560 --> 01:10:39.669
be a real wasted effort if all we get is
01:10:39.679 --> 01:10:41.990
some media coverage and changing topics.
01:10:42.000 --> 01:10:43.430
And for example, there was a question in
01:10:43.440 --> 01:10:45.430
Senate estimates last week which put
01:10:45.440 --> 01:10:48.630
Senator Wong on the spot about an office
01:10:48.640 --> 01:10:49.189
for men.
01:10:49.199 --> 01:10:49.830
>> I saw that
01:10:49.840 --> 01:10:52.310
>> if if all we get is a bunch of social
01:10:52.320 --> 01:10:55.110
media likes, we don't get anything
01:10:55.120 --> 01:10:57.590
tangible, then it's going to feel
01:10:57.600 --> 01:11:00.470
incredibly empty and wasted effort. My
01:11:00.480 --> 01:11:02.790
belief is that at this point in time, we
01:11:02.800 --> 01:11:06.870
need to shift to specific policy and
01:11:06.880 --> 01:11:09.430
cultural changes with with clear
01:11:09.440 --> 01:11:11.669
practical achievable goals behind them
01:11:11.679 --> 01:11:13.910
that can be done within a year or two in
01:11:13.920 --> 01:11:16.709
boys education, in men's health, suicide
01:11:16.719 --> 01:11:19.510
prevention, longevity and well-being. We
01:11:19.520 --> 01:11:21.030
need to pick out some things that can be
01:11:21.040 --> 01:11:22.870
done under a Labor government that are
01:11:22.880 --> 01:11:25.510
acceptable to all those gatekeepers who
01:11:25.520 --> 01:11:28.149
are involved in funding decisions,
01:11:28.159 --> 01:11:30.310
bureaucracy, you know, like I say,
01:11:30.320 --> 01:11:33.270
gynecentric public service departments.
01:11:33.280 --> 01:11:36.149
The the things we pick as the next steps
01:11:36.159 --> 01:11:37.510
for the short term, they have to be
01:11:37.520 --> 01:11:39.669
acceptable to the vast majority of
01:11:39.679 --> 01:11:40.870
people.
01:11:40.880 --> 01:11:43.669
>> What about Dan Repeakoli? like you know
01:11:43.679 --> 01:11:46.550
his role as the special envoy for um
01:11:46.560 --> 01:11:48.149
men's health here in Australia and Penny
01:11:48.159 --> 01:11:51.030
Wong referenced that as the thing that
01:11:51.040 --> 01:11:52.310
we got.
01:11:52.320 --> 01:11:54.229
>> Yeah, it's all okay. Just follow him cuz
01:11:54.239 --> 01:11:56.550
he's got some great posts. I mean that's
01:11:56.560 --> 01:11:58.470
not a that hasn't changed the lives of
01:11:58.480 --> 01:11:59.910
many men and boys in Australia.
01:11:59.920 --> 01:12:01.990
>> No. And look, I I I was a little bit
01:12:02.000 --> 01:12:04.870
dubious to begin with. And what I see,
01:12:04.880 --> 01:12:07.430
he's just one man in a fairly kind of
01:12:07.440 --> 01:12:09.990
unstructured role that seems to be doing
01:12:10.000 --> 01:12:12.070
the best that he can to get across as
01:12:12.080 --> 01:12:15.030
much as he can for one human being. So,
01:12:15.040 --> 01:12:16.550
I think it's a pretty tall order that
01:12:16.560 --> 01:12:19.669
he's been given um and not really clear
01:12:19.679 --> 01:12:21.910
what the expectations are for what he's
01:12:21.920 --> 01:12:23.110
going to achieve.
01:12:23.120 --> 01:12:24.630
>> And there are some positives that have
01:12:24.640 --> 01:12:26.709
come out of his um his time and effort
01:12:26.719 --> 01:12:29.750
in that role. I'm not going to uniformly
01:12:29.760 --> 01:12:31.750
criticize Dan or the Labour government
01:12:31.760 --> 01:12:33.510
for making that appointment. In fact, I
01:12:33.520 --> 01:12:35.750
think that appointment was one of the
01:12:35.760 --> 01:12:39.110
positive highlights of gender relations
01:12:39.120 --> 01:12:41.030
and male advocacy in Australia from last
01:12:41.040 --> 01:12:44.470
year. I I wrote up 2025 as a year of
01:12:44.480 --> 01:12:45.910
wins and achievements
01:12:45.920 --> 01:12:47.590
>> for the advocacy for men and boys and I
01:12:47.600 --> 01:12:49.350
did mention that appointment there and
01:12:49.360 --> 01:12:51.910
it stands out globally. If you look at
01:12:51.920 --> 01:12:53.030
the other English-sp speakaking
01:12:53.040 --> 01:12:55.590
countries, there were very few other
01:12:55.600 --> 01:12:58.070
decisions or appointments of similar
01:12:58.080 --> 01:13:01.110
note and importance and symbolic
01:13:01.120 --> 01:13:02.950
importance. There was the creation of
01:13:02.960 --> 01:13:04.470
the Center for Policy Research in Men
01:13:04.480 --> 01:13:05.590
and Boys in the UK.
01:13:05.600 --> 01:13:07.270
>> That's right. That's ticking along
01:13:07.280 --> 01:13:07.750
really well.
01:13:07.760 --> 01:13:09.030
>> Yeah. So, think about that. That's a
01:13:09.040 --> 01:13:11.590
real institution. It's got funding. It's
01:13:11.600 --> 01:13:12.790
got policy weight.
01:13:12.800 --> 01:13:14.550
>> And they've got an office, a literal
01:13:14.560 --> 01:13:15.510
office now.
01:13:15.520 --> 01:13:17.110
>> And they've got executives. They've got
01:13:17.120 --> 01:13:19.270
staff. They've got access to the center
01:13:19.280 --> 01:13:22.310
of government. So, I guess if I was
01:13:22.320 --> 01:13:25.350
weighing them up, I'd say the CPRB was
01:13:25.360 --> 01:13:27.030
more important than the appointment of
01:13:27.040 --> 01:13:29.430
Dan. But in the Australian context, the
01:13:29.440 --> 01:13:32.470
things that I called out included
01:13:32.480 --> 01:13:37.189
the attendance of all parties at the
01:13:37.199 --> 01:13:39.110
International Men's Day commemoration
01:13:39.120 --> 01:13:41.510
for male suicide called the zero suicide
01:13:41.520 --> 01:13:42.790
community awareness program which is
01:13:42.800 --> 01:13:44.630
held in front of Parliament House. Now,
01:13:44.640 --> 01:13:47.270
for the first time there, you had Labour
01:13:47.280 --> 01:13:49.350
members of Parliament walking down to
01:13:49.360 --> 01:13:51.590
the 2,500 shoes and paying their
01:13:51.600 --> 01:13:54.070
respects and demonstrating the
01:13:54.080 --> 01:13:56.550
importance of addressing the
01:13:56.560 --> 01:13:59.590
unacceptably high rates of suicide of
01:13:59.600 --> 01:14:02.390
men and boys in Australia. Um, there was
01:14:02.400 --> 01:14:04.550
representation from, like I said, across
01:14:04.560 --> 01:14:07.030
the aisle, bipartisan support that this
01:14:07.040 --> 01:14:09.750
is an area that we need to change as a
01:14:09.760 --> 01:14:11.990
society. So there there were a lot of
01:14:12.000 --> 01:14:14.149
wins in 2025.
01:14:14.159 --> 01:14:16.310
>> Dan's appointment and a whole bunch of
01:14:16.320 --> 01:14:18.550
others I've mentioned on but is he
01:14:18.560 --> 01:14:21.910
tokenry? That's you know I again my
01:14:21.920 --> 01:14:23.990
experience of him has been largely
01:14:24.000 --> 01:14:26.390
positive. He's been very responsive to
01:14:26.400 --> 01:14:29.669
my requests from him you know and in a
01:14:29.679 --> 01:14:33.430
in a very constructive way as well but
01:14:33.440 --> 01:14:35.430
still can't see what is the role he's
01:14:35.440 --> 01:14:37.110
playing. What is his objective? What
01:14:37.120 --> 01:14:39.030
what what are we heading towards? Are we
01:14:39.040 --> 01:14:41.350
heading towards formalizing this into a
01:14:41.360 --> 01:14:43.189
minister for men's health or an office
01:14:43.199 --> 01:14:44.950
or what is it?
01:14:44.960 --> 01:14:47.270
>> So I spoke with Dan's chief of staff and
01:14:47.280 --> 01:14:49.430
encouraged Dan to speak on International
01:14:49.440 --> 01:14:52.630
Men's Day about men's health and maybe
01:14:52.640 --> 01:14:54.470
some people would criticize that and say
01:14:54.480 --> 01:14:56.149
it's just tokenistic. It's just one
01:14:56.159 --> 01:14:57.590
person talking and you don't even see
01:14:57.600 --> 01:14:59.030
any followthrough or any money behind
01:14:59.040 --> 01:15:02.149
it. But I'll give you an example um
01:15:02.159 --> 01:15:04.870
which of a largely symbolic uh gesture.
01:15:04.880 --> 01:15:06.550
If the United Nations recognized
01:15:06.560 --> 01:15:07.910
International Men's Day and put it on
01:15:07.920 --> 01:15:09.110
their calendar,
01:15:09.120 --> 01:15:10.950
>> well, okay, it doesn't change the boys
01:15:10.960 --> 01:15:13.189
who are working in slavery or the child
01:15:13.199 --> 01:15:14.870
soldiers, you know, in developing
01:15:14.880 --> 01:15:16.630
countries, and it doesn't radically
01:15:16.640 --> 01:15:18.470
change the education outcomes for boys
01:15:18.480 --> 01:15:20.630
around the world, but that would be an
01:15:20.640 --> 01:15:21.910
important symbolic gesture.
01:15:21.920 --> 01:15:22.310
>> Yes.
01:15:22.320 --> 01:15:25.110
>> And I'm a huge critic of the United
01:15:25.120 --> 01:15:26.950
Nations and UN women because I think
01:15:26.960 --> 01:15:28.870
they're incredibly biased and that they
01:15:28.880 --> 01:15:32.070
don't honor half the population. If they
01:15:32.080 --> 01:15:34.470
did make a decision like that, I'd
01:15:34.480 --> 01:15:36.470
celebrate it and then the next day I'd
01:15:36.480 --> 01:15:38.470
be pressing them for the next step. What
01:15:38.480 --> 01:15:40.229
are you going to do next to follow
01:15:40.239 --> 01:15:41.750
through on this? What more needs to be
01:15:41.760 --> 01:15:42.310
done?
01:15:42.320 --> 01:15:44.790
>> I think what I see in the US in
01:15:44.800 --> 01:15:47.350
particular is this partisanship. They
01:15:47.360 --> 01:15:49.030
won't celebrate wins
01:15:49.040 --> 01:15:51.830
>> regardless of the nature of those wins.
01:15:51.840 --> 01:15:53.750
>> But is that the way that a movement
01:15:53.760 --> 01:15:56.390
works? Because if you're only going to
01:15:56.400 --> 01:15:59.990
celebrate the really narrow technical,
01:16:00.000 --> 01:16:02.630
ideological or political wins of people
01:16:02.640 --> 01:16:04.790
in your echo chamber, how do you ever
01:16:04.800 --> 01:16:06.709
get a big enough coalition of people to
01:16:06.719 --> 01:16:09.350
be on board for social cultural policy
01:16:09.360 --> 01:16:11.189
change? You never will.
01:16:11.199 --> 01:16:12.870
>> So instead of criticizing, you know,
01:16:12.880 --> 01:16:15.669
Gavin Newsome, the Democrat governor of
01:16:15.679 --> 01:16:19.270
California, he he issued an executive
01:16:19.280 --> 01:16:22.070
order which had some minor benefits for
01:16:22.080 --> 01:16:25.030
boys and young men. Uh it did change the
01:16:25.040 --> 01:16:27.270
conversation. It started a lot of media
01:16:27.280 --> 01:16:31.430
coverage, but the comments that I saw
01:16:31.440 --> 01:16:33.590
regarding that were highly partisan. A
01:16:33.600 --> 01:16:35.350
lot of them were really critical coming
01:16:35.360 --> 01:16:38.310
from Republicans and Trump supporters.
01:16:38.320 --> 01:16:39.990
Do you think that's going to encourage
01:16:40.000 --> 01:16:42.310
Gavin Newsome to take the next step?
01:16:42.320 --> 01:16:45.189
>> It's defeatism. It's nihilism. We've got
01:16:45.199 --> 01:16:48.390
to turn people around from criticizing
01:16:48.400 --> 01:16:51.350
and cutting others down to amplifying
01:16:51.360 --> 01:16:54.310
and lifting each other up. cuz this is a
01:16:54.320 --> 01:16:57.030
like I said a multi-deade
01:16:57.040 --> 01:16:59.110
um rebalance
01:16:59.120 --> 01:17:03.510
from overreach and imbalance back
01:17:03.520 --> 01:17:05.350
towards something that's more socially
01:17:05.360 --> 01:17:07.110
healthy. And there'll be a lot of little
01:17:07.120 --> 01:17:09.270
wins and changes along the way. And the
01:17:09.280 --> 01:17:11.510
only way of getting momentum is to
01:17:11.520 --> 01:17:13.030
capitalize on the little wins and
01:17:13.040 --> 01:17:14.709
achievements and to encourage the next
01:17:14.719 --> 01:17:17.590
steps. M well let's jump off the
01:17:17.600 --> 01:17:20.070
political stage for a moment cuz
01:17:20.080 --> 01:17:22.070
otherwise we could also stay there for
01:17:22.080 --> 01:17:25.590
for way too long. Um but respect what
01:17:25.600 --> 01:17:27.430
you're saying and and and your position
01:17:27.440 --> 01:17:31.910
there to more kind of the how and some
01:17:31.920 --> 01:17:34.070
of the small things that people can do
01:17:34.080 --> 01:17:36.950
or recognize in their own backyard that
01:17:36.960 --> 01:17:39.590
are quite thoughtless maybe or just just
01:17:39.600 --> 01:17:41.110
changing just looking at things through
01:17:41.120 --> 01:17:42.709
a different lens. And one of my favorite
01:17:42.719 --> 01:17:46.310
ones is the double standards one. Um,
01:17:46.320 --> 01:17:49.189
and how masculinity or manhood is
01:17:49.199 --> 01:17:52.149
described publicly. Um, we still see
01:17:52.159 --> 01:17:53.510
what might be called the harmless
01:17:53.520 --> 01:17:56.229
cultural jokes, the buffoon dads, the
01:17:56.239 --> 01:17:58.310
parent um, you know, the can't parent
01:17:58.320 --> 01:18:00.310
without supervision, violence against
01:18:00.320 --> 01:18:03.350
men, um, played for humor, the casual
01:18:03.360 --> 01:18:05.830
sexualization of men's and their bodies
01:18:05.840 --> 01:18:08.229
in ways that, you know, that would be
01:18:08.239 --> 01:18:10.070
called out immediately if that was
01:18:10.080 --> 01:18:12.229
something different. Um, I think that
01:18:12.239 --> 01:18:14.870
that's a place where we can we can
01:18:14.880 --> 01:18:16.709
literally do something just to change
01:18:16.719 --> 01:18:18.550
that because it's still very flippant.
01:18:18.560 --> 01:18:21.110
It's very I see it alive and well in
01:18:21.120 --> 01:18:24.070
workplace um where we can't really
01:18:24.080 --> 01:18:27.350
understand um that that's the wrong
01:18:27.360 --> 01:18:28.390
thing to do.
01:18:28.400 --> 01:18:29.910
>> Well, it's not harmless.
01:18:29.920 --> 01:18:30.229
>> No,
01:18:30.239 --> 01:18:31.510
>> it's doing real harm.
01:18:31.520 --> 01:18:33.910
>> Yeah. When I see it, it I feel harmed by
01:18:33.920 --> 01:18:36.790
it and I'm not a man. And imagine the
01:18:36.800 --> 01:18:38.709
boys, the teenage boys, the young men
01:18:38.719 --> 01:18:41.030
who've been subjected to consistently
01:18:41.040 --> 01:18:43.350
biased messaging for their whole lives
01:18:43.360 --> 01:18:45.430
who come out of 15 years or 20 years
01:18:45.440 --> 01:18:47.910
worth of indoctrination and feel
01:18:47.920 --> 01:18:49.910
completely beaten up. It's psychological
01:18:49.920 --> 01:18:51.030
warfare.
01:18:51.040 --> 01:18:53.270
>> It does demoralize and depress and
01:18:53.280 --> 01:18:55.590
destroy some people. I'll give you an
01:18:55.600 --> 01:18:58.310
example which I still see regularly.
01:18:58.320 --> 01:19:01.270
Don't be a dick. No [ __ ] policy. We
01:19:01.280 --> 01:19:03.030
would never do that about a female body
01:19:03.040 --> 01:19:05.990
part. No. like don't be a breast don't
01:19:06.000 --> 01:19:09.430
be a I mean it's a stupid things to say
01:19:09.440 --> 01:19:13.270
>> why do we put a sex or a gender around
01:19:13.280 --> 01:19:14.390
that
01:19:14.400 --> 01:19:16.070
>> it clearly wouldn't be acceptable if we
01:19:16.080 --> 01:19:18.149
were doing it in terms of the feminine
01:19:18.159 --> 01:19:22.790
the one that really um I ruminate a lot
01:19:22.800 --> 01:19:24.630
on is gamma bias
01:19:24.640 --> 01:19:26.790
>> and that's that's a selective
01:19:26.800 --> 01:19:28.550
interpretation
01:19:28.560 --> 01:19:31.189
and the key for picking out whether
01:19:31.199 --> 01:19:33.270
someone has gamma bias
01:19:33.280 --> 01:19:37.030
is do they know how to respond before
01:19:37.040 --> 01:19:39.430
they know the biological sex of the
01:19:39.440 --> 01:19:40.550
protagonist?
01:19:40.560 --> 01:19:42.149
>> Can you explain that a bit more clearly
01:19:42.159 --> 01:19:43.270
for our listeners, please?
01:19:43.280 --> 01:19:46.310
>> Yeah. So, so gamma bias is a it's a
01:19:46.320 --> 01:19:49.510
double standard. It's trying to pick up
01:19:49.520 --> 01:19:53.590
whether there's a an asymmetry between
01:19:53.600 --> 01:19:56.870
your perception of behaviors.
01:19:56.880 --> 01:20:01.990
Say um you know uh an assertive person,
01:20:02.000 --> 01:20:03.590
an assertive woman might be seen as
01:20:03.600 --> 01:20:05.750
confident. An assertive man might be
01:20:05.760 --> 01:20:09.189
seen as brash and abusive.
01:20:09.199 --> 01:20:12.390
>> Yeah. Controlling. So if you can't
01:20:12.400 --> 01:20:15.669
decide your response until you know the
01:20:15.679 --> 01:20:18.310
sex of the protagonist that suggests
01:20:18.320 --> 01:20:20.310
that you have deep gamma bites,
01:20:20.320 --> 01:20:20.709
>> right?
01:20:20.719 --> 01:20:24.470
>> If you judge and react to behaviors
01:20:24.480 --> 01:20:26.229
regardless of the sex of the
01:20:26.239 --> 01:20:27.910
protagonist, then you have no gamma
01:20:27.920 --> 01:20:28.390
vice.
01:20:28.400 --> 01:20:30.310
>> Okay? you you can just take a
01:20:30.320 --> 01:20:33.590
description of a impersonal behavior,
01:20:33.600 --> 01:20:35.510
achievement, success, whatever,
01:20:35.520 --> 01:20:37.830
>> and you'll be responding in the same way
01:20:37.840 --> 01:20:39.430
regardless of whether that is a girl or
01:20:39.440 --> 01:20:41.669
a boy or a man or a woman. That's the
01:20:41.679 --> 01:20:45.350
key to to identifying the bias.
01:20:45.360 --> 01:20:45.910
>> And I think
01:20:45.920 --> 01:20:47.350
>> is that why the other day when there was
01:20:47.360 --> 01:20:49.430
the shooting in Canada when they
01:20:49.440 --> 01:20:51.669
reported that um they they literally
01:20:51.679 --> 01:20:53.430
said we're not going to disclose the
01:20:53.440 --> 01:20:55.270
gender of the shooter
01:20:55.280 --> 01:20:57.030
>> because it was female. M
01:20:57.040 --> 01:20:58.870
>> if it had been male, it would have been
01:20:58.880 --> 01:21:00.950
of course reported immediately.
01:21:00.960 --> 01:21:03.350
>> And that's the case with reports of uh
01:21:03.360 --> 01:21:05.030
domestic and family violence in
01:21:05.040 --> 01:21:06.709
Australia as well.
01:21:06.719 --> 01:21:08.709
>> And
01:21:08.719 --> 01:21:12.229
the way that we can have a morally
01:21:12.239 --> 01:21:14.709
justifiable response to this is we
01:21:14.719 --> 01:21:16.709
always need to ask the question, what if
01:21:16.719 --> 01:21:18.470
you switch the sexes?
01:21:18.480 --> 01:21:19.110
>> Yeah.
01:21:19.120 --> 01:21:21.750
>> What if that was a male victim?
01:21:21.760 --> 01:21:22.149
>> Yeah.
01:21:22.159 --> 01:21:24.390
>> And a female perpetrator, would you feel
01:21:24.400 --> 01:21:25.830
the same way? Would you have the same
01:21:25.840 --> 01:21:28.709
compassion and empathy for the victim?
01:21:28.719 --> 01:21:30.149
Because this is what a lot of men are
01:21:30.159 --> 01:21:32.790
saying is there's very little funding.
01:21:32.800 --> 01:21:34.709
There's very little access to services.
01:21:34.719 --> 01:21:37.350
You know, one in five single parent
01:21:37.360 --> 01:21:39.590
families is led by a father or a man.
01:21:39.600 --> 01:21:40.630
>> Yeah.
01:21:40.640 --> 01:21:44.310
>> Do single uh dads have the same access
01:21:44.320 --> 01:21:46.950
to services and support and emergency
01:21:46.960 --> 01:21:48.630
accommodation and other things? No, they
01:21:48.640 --> 01:21:50.390
don't. There's a chronic shortage of all
01:21:50.400 --> 01:21:53.990
of those. So if we can't if we can't
01:21:54.000 --> 01:21:57.189
decide our compassion and our loving
01:21:57.199 --> 01:22:00.310
response to situations without knowing
01:22:00.320 --> 01:22:05.110
the sex that that indicates a deep bias
01:22:05.120 --> 01:22:06.790
in our behaviors.
01:22:06.800 --> 01:22:08.629
>> That's not morally justifiable.
01:22:08.639 --> 01:22:10.790
>> No. But I would I would just say simply
01:22:10.800 --> 01:22:14.470
to people before you say anything about
01:22:14.480 --> 01:22:17.110
you know commenting on like what you're
01:22:17.120 --> 01:22:19.270
talking about here just think about what
01:22:19.280 --> 01:22:21.750
it might look like in in reverse and
01:22:21.760 --> 01:22:25.110
that's how a man will be affected. Um I
01:22:25.120 --> 01:22:27.669
I know you know my my both my sons
01:22:27.679 --> 01:22:29.910
experience it you know in places where
01:22:29.920 --> 01:22:33.189
they work or they they they educate and
01:22:33.199 --> 01:22:35.270
it's it's really offensive their
01:22:35.280 --> 01:22:38.709
expectations. Um I remember just a
01:22:38.719 --> 01:22:41.030
story. I was working with some butchers
01:22:41.040 --> 01:22:43.910
um many many years ago and one butcher
01:22:43.920 --> 01:22:45.910
described to me a time and he you know
01:22:45.920 --> 01:22:48.149
his butcher shop was in a very affluent
01:22:48.159 --> 01:22:50.870
um area of Melbourne and he said that um
01:22:50.880 --> 01:22:54.310
one morning bunch of friends came in
01:22:54.320 --> 01:22:56.950
ladies came in to get their meat for
01:22:56.960 --> 01:22:59.270
Christmas you know special order and
01:22:59.280 --> 01:23:01.270
they were having a bit of a yak at the
01:23:01.280 --> 01:23:02.790
counter and having a laugh and they'd
01:23:02.800 --> 01:23:04.550
spotted a really cool knife. It was a
01:23:04.560 --> 01:23:06.229
very big butcher's knife and they were
01:23:06.239 --> 01:23:07.750
laughing how they would love to use that
01:23:07.760 --> 01:23:09.189
on their husbands.
01:23:09.199 --> 01:23:09.750
>> Yikes.
01:23:09.760 --> 01:23:13.750
>> And um and it was it was they were quite
01:23:13.760 --> 01:23:16.070
uporously laughing about this and
01:23:16.080 --> 01:23:17.270
talking about ways that they would like
01:23:17.280 --> 01:23:18.550
to kill their husbands and then got into
01:23:18.560 --> 01:23:21.750
this conversation. He was so traumatized
01:23:21.760 --> 01:23:24.149
by listening to this. And that was just
01:23:24.159 --> 01:23:25.830
one example how we think it's kind of
01:23:25.840 --> 01:23:27.590
funny. you know, I'm gonna, you know,
01:23:27.600 --> 01:23:29.030
I'm going to belt my husband over the
01:23:29.040 --> 01:23:31.990
head or, you know, I saw I saw a meme
01:23:32.000 --> 01:23:33.830
for Valentine's Day and it was a woman
01:23:33.840 --> 01:23:36.070
beating this man with a bunch of flowers
01:23:36.080 --> 01:23:38.149
going, I didn't want flowers. I wanted
01:23:38.159 --> 01:23:40.870
to go to Marrakesh. You know, it's but
01:23:40.880 --> 01:23:42.229
that was funny. That would that got so
01:23:42.239 --> 01:23:43.750
many likes and so many laughs. That's
01:23:43.760 --> 01:23:47.189
hilarious. It's just so not
01:23:47.199 --> 01:23:48.229
not at all.
01:23:48.239 --> 01:23:50.310
>> Well, it is it's socially unacceptable.
01:23:50.320 --> 01:23:52.790
If there was a recording of men looking
01:23:52.800 --> 01:23:55.030
at a knife and then talking about how
01:23:55.040 --> 01:23:58.870
they were going to um inflict
01:23:58.880 --> 01:24:01.669
very serious wounds onto their their
01:24:01.679 --> 01:24:03.750
wives or their partners that would be
01:24:03.760 --> 01:24:06.310
front page misogyny and evidence of, you
01:24:06.320 --> 01:24:09.270
know, deep sexism and social breakdown
01:24:09.280 --> 01:24:11.669
and all sort of other things. It's not
01:24:11.679 --> 01:24:13.669
acceptable for anyone to do that. You
01:24:13.679 --> 01:24:14.709
you can't go around talking about
01:24:14.719 --> 01:24:15.910
killing all men.
01:24:15.920 --> 01:24:18.229
>> That's not an acceptable thing in our
01:24:18.239 --> 01:24:19.990
civil society to do. No,
01:24:20.000 --> 01:24:21.830
>> you don't do that. You don't. You're not
01:24:21.840 --> 01:24:25.590
a role model unless you can, you know,
01:24:25.600 --> 01:24:27.750
present yourself to the world in a way
01:24:27.760 --> 01:24:29.270
that you want the next generation to
01:24:29.280 --> 01:24:31.910
behave in. They're teaching girls to do
01:24:31.920 --> 01:24:34.070
and say those same things.
01:24:34.080 --> 01:24:36.070
>> Deeply harmful to us socially and
01:24:36.080 --> 01:24:37.270
culturally.
01:24:37.280 --> 01:24:39.669
>> So, people change your lens, change your
01:24:39.679 --> 01:24:43.110
language, and um we're going to go to
01:24:43.120 --> 01:24:44.950
another break. Well, we haven't had a
01:24:44.960 --> 01:24:47.189
break for an hour cuz that went on for a
01:24:47.199 --> 01:24:50.470
while, didn't it? Um, look people, just
01:24:50.480 --> 01:24:53.990
a little bit of a um, reminder here. You
01:24:54.000 --> 01:24:55.590
know, we've we've delved into some
01:24:55.600 --> 01:24:58.390
pretty um, unexpected conversations. You
01:24:58.400 --> 01:25:00.550
know, if you feel if any feelings have
01:25:00.560 --> 01:25:02.070
come up for you that where you feel
01:25:02.080 --> 01:25:05.350
uncomfortable um, and you need some
01:25:05.360 --> 01:25:08.709
extra support, please uh, lifeline is
01:25:08.719 --> 01:25:11.270
there. Um, their number there is 1
01:25:11.280 --> 01:25:13.110
13114.
01:25:13.120 --> 01:25:18.149
suicide callback service 1 1300659-467
01:25:18.159 --> 01:25:20.470
and there's an amazing um government
01:25:20.480 --> 01:25:22.149
initiative we have here it's called head
01:25:22.159 --> 01:25:24.149
to health the number there is 1
01:25:24.159 --> 01:25:27.590
800595212
01:25:27.600 --> 01:25:30.229
or visit them at headtotohealth.gov.au
01:25:30.239 --> 01:25:32.470
AU. They've got about 5 million
01:25:32.480 --> 01:25:34.070
different resources. Probably
01:25:34.080 --> 01:25:36.790
exaggerating there. Um, clickable,
01:25:36.800 --> 01:25:38.950
printable, downloadable,
01:25:38.960 --> 01:25:41.350
um, talkable, you whatever you need,
01:25:41.360 --> 01:25:43.830
that's that's an amazing resource. So,
01:25:43.840 --> 01:25:45.830
as I said, if some of our conversations
01:25:45.840 --> 01:25:48.470
today have brought up uncomfortable
01:25:48.480 --> 01:25:51.350
feelings for you, please do seek
01:25:51.360 --> 01:25:54.870
support. Um, we're up to our next very
01:25:54.880 --> 01:25:57.030
special guest song request. Can you
01:25:57.040 --> 01:25:59.270
believe it?
01:25:59.280 --> 01:26:02.629
As as always, I've got a very special um
01:26:02.639 --> 01:26:04.790
cryptic clue for you, David.
01:26:04.800 --> 01:26:09.030
>> Are you ready for it?
01:26:09.040 --> 01:26:12.629
>> Aussie trousers.
01:26:12.639 --> 01:26:16.550
>> That's the clue.
01:26:16.560 --> 01:26:20.310
Jeans, shorts, very cryptic. No, I'm
01:26:20.320 --> 01:26:25.910
stumped. Dax
01:26:25.920 --> 01:26:29.110
>> D A X. If you haven't heard of this
01:26:29.120 --> 01:26:31.990
Nigerian rapper, look him up. He's
01:26:32.000 --> 01:26:33.510
sensational.
01:26:33.520 --> 01:26:35.990
>> To be a man is the title of the song.
01:26:36.000 --> 01:26:37.590
But I really wanted to make the clue
01:26:37.600 --> 01:26:40.629
about when you dack somebody.
01:26:40.639 --> 01:26:42.310
So, for those of you listening in from
01:26:42.320 --> 01:26:43.669
other parts of the world, to dack
01:26:43.679 --> 01:26:45.350
somebody means you pull down someone's
01:26:45.360 --> 01:26:47.430
pants, which is really terrible. It's
01:26:47.440 --> 01:26:50.149
It's a terrible form of bullying. Um,
01:26:50.159 --> 01:26:52.470
but it's also very Australian. So that's
01:26:52.480 --> 01:26:53.990
got to do with DAX. If you're wearing
01:26:54.000 --> 01:26:56.870
some pants, get your DAX on or get them
01:26:56.880 --> 01:27:00.950
off depending on what you're doing.
01:27:00.960 --> 01:27:02.870
>> And there's no reference to the artist
01:27:02.880 --> 01:27:04.229
or connection.
01:27:04.239 --> 01:27:05.990
>> Not at all. I'm glad we're laughing. But
01:27:06.000 --> 01:27:07.669
when we come back, let's widen the lens
01:27:07.679 --> 01:27:10.229
a bit um from policy and perception to
01:27:10.239 --> 01:27:12.629
purpose, fatherhood, and what the future
01:27:12.639 --> 01:27:14.310
might look like for boys growing up
01:27:14.320 --> 01:27:15.750
today. We're not going to cover any of
01:27:15.760 --> 01:27:17.189
that, by the way. I've just written that
01:27:17.199 --> 01:27:19.830
down cuz we'll be wrapping we'll be
01:27:19.840 --> 01:27:22.390
wrapping the show. So, don't go away.
01:27:22.400 --> 01:27:27.669
You're listening to 94.1 FM. It's 3WBC.
01:27:27.679 --> 01:27:29.270
Welcome back. If you've just tuned in,
01:27:29.280 --> 01:27:31.590
you're listening to What Does It Feel
01:27:31.600 --> 01:27:36.070
Like You Today on 94.1 FM 3WBC.
01:27:36.080 --> 01:27:39.189
I'm Ray Bonnie and in conversation with
01:27:39.199 --> 01:27:41.750
David Maywald, governance specialist,
01:27:41.760 --> 01:27:43.910
board director, and author of The
01:27:43.920 --> 01:27:46.629
Relentless War on Masculinity. And we've
01:27:46.639 --> 01:27:49.270
been exploring the systems, narratives,
01:27:49.280 --> 01:27:51.669
and policies shaping the lives of men
01:27:51.679 --> 01:27:54.629
and boys and some controversial stuff as
01:27:54.639 --> 01:27:56.550
well where we're probably agreeing to
01:27:56.560 --> 01:27:59.189
disagree. I don't know. But that's how
01:27:59.199 --> 01:28:01.910
it goes, doesn't it? you know, healthy
01:28:01.920 --> 01:28:04.229
debate or healthy conversation, you
01:28:04.239 --> 01:28:05.990
don't always have to agree and you don't
01:28:06.000 --> 01:28:09.669
have to be right, but I find when you're
01:28:09.679 --> 01:28:12.390
speaking about men's health, people will
01:28:12.400 --> 01:28:14.709
attack the person who's delivering the
01:28:14.719 --> 01:28:16.790
message rather than the message. I don't
01:28:16.800 --> 01:28:17.990
know if you find that.
01:28:18.000 --> 01:28:19.990
>> Yeah, absolutely.
01:28:20.000 --> 01:28:23.030
>> And it undermines, you know, healthy
01:28:23.040 --> 01:28:26.229
exchange and it undermines a potential
01:28:26.239 --> 01:28:28.470
to have balanced positive outcomes
01:28:28.480 --> 01:28:30.709
across the board. Oh, I've I've changed
01:28:30.719 --> 01:28:32.470
my mind more times than I could even
01:28:32.480 --> 01:28:35.030
imagine on some of some things that I
01:28:35.040 --> 01:28:37.189
felt very strongly about just through
01:28:37.199 --> 01:28:39.430
healthy conversation and not being
01:28:39.440 --> 01:28:42.070
attacked. Um,
01:28:42.080 --> 01:28:44.629
>> I think, you know, that song um has a
01:28:44.639 --> 01:28:47.590
powerful way of communicating to people
01:28:47.600 --> 01:28:50.470
>> and Dax is about 32 years old.
01:28:50.480 --> 01:28:52.390
>> His parents are both Nigerian and he's a
01:28:52.400 --> 01:28:56.629
Canadian. And for such a young man, he's
01:28:56.639 --> 01:28:58.790
able to vocalize and write lyrics and
01:28:58.800 --> 01:29:00.390
connect with people in a really powerful
01:29:00.400 --> 01:29:02.470
way. That song to be a man, it's been
01:29:02.480 --> 01:29:04.310
listened over 100 million times on
01:29:04.320 --> 01:29:06.470
YouTube alone.
01:29:06.480 --> 01:29:08.550
>> That line about unconditional loves for
01:29:08.560 --> 01:29:10.390
women, children, and dogs, I mean, that
01:29:10.400 --> 01:29:12.790
hits me every time. It really like goes
01:29:12.800 --> 01:29:14.390
to the core of what we were talking
01:29:14.400 --> 01:29:16.870
about before, which is this preferencing
01:29:16.880 --> 01:29:20.310
of of females of children and this
01:29:20.320 --> 01:29:22.629
almost lack of interest in the outcomes
01:29:22.639 --> 01:29:25.590
for males. So that song he released that
01:29:25.600 --> 01:29:29.510
as um as a single and then he did a duet
01:29:29.520 --> 01:29:31.910
and then he had this incredible response
01:29:31.920 --> 01:29:33.270
to the song.
01:29:33.280 --> 01:29:34.870
>> Dozens of people came back to him, you
01:29:34.880 --> 01:29:36.950
know, with potential verses and lyrics.
01:29:36.960 --> 01:29:39.270
He did a mega me what he called a mega
01:29:39.280 --> 01:29:40.229
remix
01:29:40.239 --> 01:29:41.990
>> which was a 10-minute long version of
01:29:42.000 --> 01:29:43.669
the song with 10 different artists.
01:29:43.679 --> 01:29:44.870
>> All right, that's the one that you told
01:29:44.880 --> 01:29:45.990
me not to play.
01:29:46.000 --> 01:29:47.750
>> It's it's very long but it's really
01:29:47.760 --> 01:29:49.350
powerful and I'd recommend everyone
01:29:49.360 --> 01:29:50.790
listening, you know, go and look it up.
01:29:50.800 --> 01:29:52.950
The mega remix of to be a man by Dax.
01:29:52.960 --> 01:29:55.669
There's a chorus uh there's a verse by
01:29:55.679 --> 01:29:59.270
uh an artist called the mediary and he
01:29:59.280 --> 01:30:01.189
goes to uh talking about men's
01:30:01.199 --> 01:30:02.870
wellbeing. At the end of his verse, he
01:30:02.880 --> 01:30:04.870
says, "Do you ever wonder why it's
01:30:04.880 --> 01:30:07.270
mostly men who commit suicide? We
01:30:07.280 --> 01:30:08.950
figure, why not? We're already dead
01:30:08.960 --> 01:30:11.910
inside." And it's one of, you know, the
01:30:11.920 --> 01:30:15.189
very moving uh excerpts of lyrics from
01:30:15.199 --> 01:30:16.950
those 10 artists. M
01:30:16.960 --> 01:30:19.270
>> I I played that at a conference in
01:30:19.280 --> 01:30:21.510
November last year and there was an
01:30:21.520 --> 01:30:24.070
outpouring of emotion and realization
01:30:24.080 --> 01:30:26.550
about the depth of
01:30:26.560 --> 01:30:29.590
>> experience that men have through work
01:30:29.600 --> 01:30:32.149
and relationships for children.
01:30:32.159 --> 01:30:34.709
>> And Dax for such a like I said such a
01:30:34.719 --> 01:30:36.229
young man he's got a way of connecting
01:30:36.239 --> 01:30:39.030
and imparting that in a way that
01:30:39.040 --> 01:30:42.149
connects that facts don't that that
01:30:42.159 --> 01:30:43.990
narratives don't. And I think it's
01:30:44.000 --> 01:30:46.470
really important that we use all forms
01:30:46.480 --> 01:30:49.669
of media and expression and art to reach
01:30:49.679 --> 01:30:50.870
audiences.
01:30:50.880 --> 01:30:53.270
>> Oh, I mean, music undoubtedly is one of
01:30:53.280 --> 01:30:56.629
the greatest um deliverers of of
01:30:56.639 --> 01:30:58.790
powerful messaging that people really
01:30:58.800 --> 01:31:00.629
resonate with. So, we've got to, you
01:31:00.639 --> 01:31:02.390
know, we big shout out to the
01:31:02.400 --> 01:31:04.310
entertainment industry, by the way. You
01:31:04.320 --> 01:31:06.709
know, underpaid, overworked,
01:31:06.719 --> 01:31:09.430
underrecognized, ripped off.
01:31:09.440 --> 01:31:10.390
>> Um,
01:31:10.400 --> 01:31:13.189
>> but look him up. D Ax. And please, if
01:31:13.199 --> 01:31:14.790
you're out there dax, come to Australia.
01:31:14.800 --> 01:31:16.310
We need you in Australia.
01:31:16.320 --> 01:31:17.830
>> Bring your pants out here.
01:31:17.840 --> 01:31:21.750
>> We won't duck you.
01:31:21.760 --> 01:31:24.310
>> Now, you just mentioned there suicide.
01:31:24.320 --> 01:31:26.229
We've probably only got one more little
01:31:26.239 --> 01:31:28.070
conversation to have before we start
01:31:28.080 --> 01:31:31.350
wrapping up, but you we I mean, we we we
01:31:31.360 --> 01:31:33.750
both know male suicide rates, you know,
01:31:33.760 --> 01:31:36.709
rose last year. I can't remember what's
01:31:36.719 --> 01:31:38.390
last year and this year at the moment.
01:31:38.400 --> 01:31:40.629
And female stats went down ever so
01:31:40.639 --> 01:31:42.790
slightly. And I heard you sort of making
01:31:42.800 --> 01:31:45.910
a comment about about that and you know
01:31:45.920 --> 01:31:48.310
there's a lack of gendered systems when
01:31:48.320 --> 01:31:50.390
it comes to suicide prevention. I
01:31:50.400 --> 01:31:51.750
believe the way that we fund it, the way
01:31:51.760 --> 01:31:53.350
that we research it
01:31:53.360 --> 01:31:55.510
>> and yeah, the way that we deliver
01:31:55.520 --> 01:31:57.270
services for suicide is still very
01:31:57.280 --> 01:31:59.910
generic. Um,
01:31:59.920 --> 01:32:03.270
and I guess my comment was,
01:32:03.280 --> 01:32:06.310
do you think that
01:32:06.320 --> 01:32:09.350
female suicide has decreased not because
01:32:09.360 --> 01:32:11.910
we're paying more attention to that, but
01:32:11.920 --> 01:32:13.430
because females are just getting more
01:32:13.440 --> 01:32:16.149
and more services or we're creating more
01:32:16.159 --> 01:32:19.189
services, more support, more funding um,
01:32:19.199 --> 01:32:23.350
and more um, vocalization around women's
01:32:23.360 --> 01:32:26.229
health that they're prospering better.
01:32:26.239 --> 01:32:28.550
In the book, I talk about how the
01:32:28.560 --> 01:32:31.270
English-speaking countries have moved
01:32:31.280 --> 01:32:33.030
from what I thought was close to
01:32:33.040 --> 01:32:35.669
equality 40 years ago to cultural
01:32:35.679 --> 01:32:37.590
gyocentrism. And now I believe we're in
01:32:37.600 --> 01:32:39.990
an age of institutional gyocentrism. So
01:32:40.000 --> 01:32:43.510
you've got media which is more friendly
01:32:43.520 --> 01:32:47.669
to female stories to more empathetic of
01:32:47.679 --> 01:32:50.790
female harm. You've got government
01:32:50.800 --> 01:32:53.270
agencies funded. For example, women's
01:32:53.280 --> 01:32:56.149
health research in Australia gets 5.4
01:32:56.159 --> 01:32:57.830
times more than men's health research
01:32:57.840 --> 01:33:00.950
according to the um national uh medical
01:33:00.960 --> 01:33:04.790
health research council. Um all arms of
01:33:04.800 --> 01:33:07.030
society, government, economy, education,
01:33:07.040 --> 01:33:10.950
media are sympathetic to females and
01:33:10.960 --> 01:33:13.590
have a lack of awareness and empathy and
01:33:13.600 --> 01:33:16.950
a lack of support for males. and it's
01:33:16.960 --> 01:33:20.709
obviously noted by many men in terms of
01:33:20.719 --> 01:33:24.709
family law. Um, and
01:33:24.719 --> 01:33:29.350
we have lacked an honest curiosity and a
01:33:29.360 --> 01:33:31.669
unbiased response to that. So to have
01:33:31.679 --> 01:33:34.470
male suicide increase by 5%. And female
01:33:34.480 --> 01:33:37.270
suicide decrease by 2%. Clearly the
01:33:37.280 --> 01:33:39.110
hundreds of millions of dollars is
01:33:39.120 --> 01:33:42.229
reducing slightly female suicide. But to
01:33:42.239 --> 01:33:43.510
be spending hundreds of millions of
01:33:43.520 --> 01:33:46.550
dollars every year and to still have a
01:33:46.560 --> 01:33:48.390
5% increase in male suicide, that's
01:33:48.400 --> 01:33:50.950
that's more than an extra hundred male
01:33:50.960 --> 01:33:54.310
souls lost in a year.
01:33:54.320 --> 01:33:56.470
So it's a huge indictment that we are
01:33:56.480 --> 01:33:58.070
not doing the things that are necessary.
01:33:58.080 --> 01:33:59.669
I can tell you from the survey results
01:33:59.679 --> 01:34:03.350
I've got from almost 250 men and women
01:34:03.360 --> 01:34:06.310
responding about specific measures we
01:34:06.320 --> 01:34:09.750
can take. Targeted suicide prevention
01:34:09.760 --> 01:34:12.149
that's effective for reducing men and
01:34:12.159 --> 01:34:14.870
boys taking their own lives is a very
01:34:14.880 --> 01:34:16.950
strong signal coming out of that survey
01:34:16.960 --> 01:34:17.830
response.
01:34:17.840 --> 01:34:20.070
>> Is there any specifics attached to that?
01:34:20.080 --> 01:34:22.629
>> Not at this stage. And I would I'm
01:34:22.639 --> 01:34:23.910
looking to the Australian Men's Health
01:34:23.920 --> 01:34:26.390
Forum and others who are enlightened and
01:34:26.400 --> 01:34:28.229
you know Glenn for example has been a
01:34:28.239 --> 01:34:29.669
champion in that area. He pointed out
01:34:29.679 --> 01:34:32.709
that the current strategy of the 117
01:34:32.719 --> 01:34:34.790
actions only three of them reference
01:34:34.800 --> 01:34:37.430
male services or men and boys.
01:34:37.440 --> 01:34:38.629
>> Are you kidding me?
01:34:38.639 --> 01:34:42.709
>> So 77% of suicide is males and the
01:34:42.719 --> 01:34:46.470
national strategy has three out of 117
01:34:46.480 --> 01:34:49.669
measures. Like you're completely right.
01:34:49.679 --> 01:34:53.270
We're not targeting the vast majority
01:34:53.280 --> 01:34:56.229
of this loss and this is a loss every
01:34:56.239 --> 01:34:57.750
single year,
01:34:57.760 --> 01:35:00.709
>> but we talk about stopping suicide and
01:35:00.719 --> 01:35:02.709
that's it. That's as far as it goes. And
01:35:02.719 --> 01:35:04.790
when you look at, you know, the the risk
01:35:04.800 --> 01:35:07.830
factors that lead to suicide in men and
01:35:07.840 --> 01:35:10.470
boys, they're many and varied, but you
01:35:10.480 --> 01:35:12.070
know, there's a very strong pattern as
01:35:12.080 --> 01:35:13.669
well. I mean you you know you mentioned
01:35:13.679 --> 01:35:15.990
before about you know family law and you
01:35:16.000 --> 01:35:17.350
know men that are moving through that
01:35:17.360 --> 01:35:20.870
system when um especially when um their
01:35:20.880 --> 01:35:22.870
alienation is involved and they've lost
01:35:22.880 --> 01:35:25.590
contact with their children you know
01:35:25.600 --> 01:35:28.070
access to their finances have dissipated
01:35:28.080 --> 01:35:30.470
their relationships broken down. Those
01:35:30.480 --> 01:35:33.830
three things are very very high in terms
01:35:33.840 --> 01:35:35.990
of risk factors leading towards suicide.
01:35:36.000 --> 01:35:38.070
But we're not doing anything about those
01:35:38.080 --> 01:35:39.910
three things.
01:35:39.920 --> 01:35:42.070
And there's evidence from the UK that
01:35:42.080 --> 01:35:45.110
many men at risk have reached out.
01:35:45.120 --> 01:35:47.590
they've sought some forms of support and
01:35:47.600 --> 01:35:49.510
that support hasn't been forthcoming or
01:35:49.520 --> 01:35:52.550
hasn't been in a form that is responsive
01:35:52.560 --> 01:35:55.270
to them and also that
01:35:55.280 --> 01:35:57.669
>> but sorry can I just interrupt there a
01:35:57.679 --> 01:35:59.669
little because it's just something that
01:35:59.679 --> 01:36:01.430
really burns brightly for me given that
01:36:01.440 --> 01:36:05.189
yeah 95% of my clientele are these men
01:36:05.199 --> 01:36:09.270
>> and it's not it's just often just
01:36:09.280 --> 01:36:10.950
thought of as a mental health problem.
01:36:10.960 --> 01:36:12.950
So if we can fix their mental health,
01:36:12.960 --> 01:36:15.189
we'll stop them from killing themselves.
01:36:15.199 --> 01:36:17.910
Now in these situations, it's it's not a
01:36:17.920 --> 01:36:19.510
mental health issue. They just need
01:36:19.520 --> 01:36:22.470
access to finance, access to their kids,
01:36:22.480 --> 01:36:24.790
and access to support to make sense of
01:36:24.800 --> 01:36:29.110
that. So buying men with drugs or
01:36:29.120 --> 01:36:30.310
telling them that they have a mental
01:36:30.320 --> 01:36:33.189
health problem is not really the answer.
01:36:33.199 --> 01:36:35.590
>> It's papering over substantially.
01:36:35.600 --> 01:36:37.669
>> We just have to get a practical approach
01:36:37.679 --> 01:36:39.030
to some of these things. It's not going
01:36:39.040 --> 01:36:41.189
to solve all suicide, but it will
01:36:41.199 --> 01:36:43.830
certainly make a big dent in I mean
01:36:43.840 --> 01:36:46.310
again most men that come to me are at
01:36:46.320 --> 01:36:48.709
that stage where they're ready to die.
01:36:48.719 --> 01:36:50.790
And that won't put it any more simply
01:36:50.800 --> 01:36:53.669
than that. Um I'm not there to save men.
01:36:53.679 --> 01:36:55.910
I'm there to help them make sense of,
01:36:55.920 --> 01:36:57.109
you know, what their options are. And
01:36:57.119 --> 01:36:59.669
quite often there aren't any options cuz
01:36:59.679 --> 01:37:01.189
they're just not available. They all
01:37:01.199 --> 01:37:03.590
they want is to be able to see their
01:37:03.600 --> 01:37:06.790
kids. So reverse like the sexes as we
01:37:06.800 --> 01:37:08.550
were talking about in the last session.
01:37:08.560 --> 01:37:10.790
How would a compassionate country
01:37:10.800 --> 01:37:12.950
respond if seven women and girls were
01:37:12.960 --> 01:37:14.470
taking their own lives and were subject
01:37:14.480 --> 01:37:16.229
to this institutional
01:37:16.239 --> 01:37:18.390
>> discrim? I don't think that's helpful
01:37:18.400 --> 01:37:20.550
when we just keep on reversing the sexes
01:37:20.560 --> 01:37:23.669
and make a male female conversation. I
01:37:23.679 --> 01:37:25.590
don't think that that's useful. I think
01:37:25.600 --> 01:37:27.350
we just have to focus on the fact that
01:37:27.360 --> 01:37:30.070
this is an issue and that we have to
01:37:30.080 --> 01:37:32.870
understand or if we want to understand
01:37:32.880 --> 01:37:34.310
that there is a different way through it
01:37:34.320 --> 01:37:35.990
because I think we're still thinking of
01:37:36.000 --> 01:37:38.709
of this very superficial level of
01:37:38.719 --> 01:37:40.550
suicide is just about men killing
01:37:40.560 --> 01:37:42.950
themselves and that's what men do
01:37:42.960 --> 01:37:44.550
because they don't seek help. they don't
01:37:44.560 --> 01:37:46.310
show emotion
01:37:46.320 --> 01:37:49.189
and those things are wholly untrue
01:37:49.199 --> 01:37:50.790
>> and they're not you know men are
01:37:50.800 --> 01:37:52.709
biologically predisposed that you know
01:37:52.719 --> 01:37:55.109
you're high risk takingaking in behavior
01:37:55.119 --> 01:37:57.830
biologically so that is going to that's
01:37:57.840 --> 01:38:00.790
another factor involved in being able to
01:38:00.800 --> 01:38:03.590
kill yourself. So those assertions that
01:38:03.600 --> 01:38:05.830
you mentioned, they go unchallenged
01:38:05.840 --> 01:38:07.270
>> so much of the time, whether it's in
01:38:07.280 --> 01:38:09.109
media or whether people talking to each
01:38:09.119 --> 01:38:11.510
other and there are bodies, enlightened
01:38:11.520 --> 01:38:14.790
bodies organizations and advocates who
01:38:14.800 --> 01:38:16.390
challenge and have evidence basis to
01:38:16.400 --> 01:38:18.149
push back and they're not currently
01:38:18.159 --> 01:38:20.550
being heard and given access to decision
01:38:20.560 --> 01:38:22.390
makers or having the influence to be
01:38:22.400 --> 01:38:24.709
able to change strategies. So change
01:38:24.719 --> 01:38:27.910
change the family law system or change
01:38:27.920 --> 01:38:31.270
the system that prevents men from seeing
01:38:31.280 --> 01:38:34.229
their children or men that are allowed
01:38:34.239 --> 01:38:35.910
to see their children perhaps every
01:38:35.920 --> 01:38:38.629
second week and have to pay between
01:38:38.639 --> 01:38:41.430
three and three and $1,000
01:38:41.440 --> 01:38:43.270
to see their children on top of
01:38:43.280 --> 01:38:44.950
maintenance as well. They've got no
01:38:44.960 --> 01:38:46.629
money. They're spending it all in the
01:38:46.639 --> 01:38:49.350
courts all in maintenance. And then then
01:38:49.360 --> 01:38:51.750
the the killer is to put that on top of
01:38:51.760 --> 01:38:54.470
it where now they're having to go to the
01:38:54.480 --> 01:38:56.790
bank to get themselves in further and
01:38:56.800 --> 01:38:59.030
further debt so they can spend 2 hours
01:38:59.040 --> 01:39:00.470
with their kids.
01:39:00.480 --> 01:39:02.390
>> That is atrocious.
01:39:02.400 --> 01:39:04.550
>> I agree. More people recognize that.
01:39:04.560 --> 01:39:08.310
>> Yeah. So, um the I mean I'll always go
01:39:08.320 --> 01:39:10.310
back to systems.
01:39:10.320 --> 01:39:12.229
Build the systems. change the systems
01:39:12.239 --> 01:39:15.669
that serve everybody because it's all
01:39:15.679 --> 01:39:18.390
about it's it's about people.
01:39:18.400 --> 01:39:19.830
>> Absolutely.
01:39:19.840 --> 01:39:23.189
>> So there you go. Now
01:39:23.199 --> 01:39:27.270
I have to tell you that after this show
01:39:27.280 --> 01:39:29.510
we have Paula Hog coming up for a very
01:39:29.520 --> 01:39:33.109
lazy Sunday afternoon and her tunes are
01:39:33.119 --> 01:39:35.270
pretty amazing. She brings them all in
01:39:35.280 --> 01:39:37.350
on CDs in about four different bags on
01:39:37.360 --> 01:39:40.229
the train. and um she's got she's she's
01:39:40.239 --> 01:39:42.629
she's very talented Paul. So if you're
01:39:42.639 --> 01:39:44.229
looking for a good chill out, stay
01:39:44.239 --> 01:39:47.590
tuned. I'm returning on Sunday the 15th
01:39:47.600 --> 01:39:49.910
of March for a very special and probably
01:39:49.920 --> 01:39:52.709
emotional show that's honoring the life
01:39:52.719 --> 01:39:56.310
of Jason Charlton. Now Jason um came to
01:39:56.320 --> 01:39:59.430
me as a client over 2 years and two
01:39:59.440 --> 01:40:01.830
years ago and became probably one of the
01:40:01.840 --> 01:40:03.590
most memorable and meaningful men I've
01:40:03.600 --> 01:40:06.790
had the privilege of working with. Um he
01:40:06.800 --> 01:40:09.910
passed unexpectedly in November very
01:40:09.920 --> 01:40:12.870
very quickly. He was only 50 years old.
01:40:12.880 --> 01:40:15.830
Um and for those who knew him, you'll
01:40:15.840 --> 01:40:17.910
understand just how big that absence
01:40:17.920 --> 01:40:20.870
feels. Um he was a force, an immense
01:40:20.880 --> 01:40:23.669
strength, ridiculous charm, and a
01:40:23.679 --> 01:40:25.750
vulnerability that sat very quietly
01:40:25.760 --> 01:40:28.390
beneath all of that. And when he came
01:40:28.400 --> 01:40:31.030
arm into my life, the way many men do,
01:40:31.040 --> 01:40:32.310
through a mate, through a mate, through
01:40:32.320 --> 01:40:34.390
a mate, through another mate, no
01:40:34.400 --> 01:40:36.870
marketing, just blo care of each other
01:40:36.880 --> 01:40:39.590
without all the blah blah. Um, what
01:40:39.600 --> 01:40:41.350
followed with 2 years of what I've often
01:40:41.360 --> 01:40:44.149
described as competitive harmony,
01:40:44.159 --> 01:40:45.830
hundreds of early morning hours where
01:40:45.840 --> 01:40:47.910
Jason consciously strove to be a better
01:40:47.920 --> 01:40:50.790
man. But the truth is, he already was.
01:40:50.800 --> 01:40:54.070
Um, he just couldn't see it. He was so
01:40:54.080 --> 01:40:56.550
proud of his business. JC's scaffolding.
01:40:56.560 --> 01:40:58.470
It's um not just about building
01:40:58.480 --> 01:41:01.109
worldclass scaffolding, but for creating
01:41:01.119 --> 01:41:03.590
opportunities through his generosity and
01:41:03.600 --> 01:41:05.910
meaning for anyone that was ever in his
01:41:05.920 --> 01:41:08.629
orbit. So on the 15th of March, I'm
01:41:08.639 --> 01:41:10.470
going to be joined live in the studio by
01:41:10.480 --> 01:41:13.189
his best and only sister, Amanda, and
01:41:13.199 --> 01:41:14.870
his very best friend, Lee, to put
01:41:14.880 --> 01:41:16.229
together something Jason would
01:41:16.239 --> 01:41:19.669
absolutely love. um honest, grounded,
01:41:19.679 --> 01:41:21.750
probably a little bit naughty and full
01:41:21.760 --> 01:41:23.750
of the kind of storytelling that refle
01:41:23.760 --> 01:41:26.709
reflects the many sides of this amazing
01:41:26.719 --> 01:41:28.950
human being. Um he might be gone, but
01:41:28.960 --> 01:41:33.430
he's he's still very um very present. Um
01:41:33.440 --> 01:41:35.350
this won't be a somber reflection alone.
01:41:35.360 --> 01:41:36.790
It will be pretty pretty much a
01:41:36.800 --> 01:41:40.390
celebration of his life. So um and of
01:41:40.400 --> 01:41:42.790
course today's conversation will be
01:41:42.800 --> 01:41:44.950
carefully brought together over the
01:41:44.960 --> 01:41:47.830
coming weeks by the ever multi-talented
01:41:47.840 --> 01:41:50.070
Mike Hagen. Now I'm used to sharing the
01:41:50.080 --> 01:41:51.990
health and safety stage with Mike, but
01:41:52.000 --> 01:41:54.470
on Friday night I saw a very different
01:41:54.480 --> 01:41:57.669
side of him fronting his rock band Swamp
01:41:57.679 --> 01:42:01.510
Donkey at the Acorn Bar in the Basin. Um
01:42:01.520 --> 01:42:03.270
now for those listening in from
01:42:03.280 --> 01:42:05.430
elsewhere, the Basin is not a bathroom
01:42:05.440 --> 01:42:07.430
reference. The basin's a real suburb
01:42:07.440 --> 01:42:09.270
nestled in the beautiful Danny Nong
01:42:09.280 --> 01:42:12.390
Rangers here in Victoria. So, rock front
01:42:12.400 --> 01:42:14.470
man one night, meticulous producer the
01:42:14.480 --> 01:42:16.790
next. We're lucky to have Mike bringing
01:42:16.800 --> 01:42:19.109
this episode together, which you'll be
01:42:19.119 --> 01:42:20.790
able to find alongside more than a
01:42:20.800 --> 01:42:23.030
hundred others at its original home on
01:42:23.040 --> 01:42:25.830
YouTube um on my website and wherever
01:42:25.840 --> 01:42:28.390
you get your podcast, including Spotify
01:42:28.400 --> 01:42:31.109
and Apple. Just search up Ray Bonnie
01:42:31.119 --> 01:42:33.030
podcast or Ray Bonnie YouTube or Ray
01:42:33.040 --> 01:42:35.030
Bonnie Men's Health or Ray Bonnie and
01:42:35.040 --> 01:42:37.669
it'll take you straight there.
01:42:37.679 --> 01:42:39.910
So David, if listeners want to get hold
01:42:39.920 --> 01:42:42.550
of the relentless war on masculinity,
01:42:42.560 --> 01:42:44.550
where is the best place to find it?
01:42:44.560 --> 01:42:46.950
>> So if you search for the relentless war
01:42:46.960 --> 01:42:47.910
on masculinity
01:42:47.920 --> 01:42:48.550
>> say it
01:42:48.560 --> 01:42:50.470
>> by David Maywald, you'll find the
01:42:50.480 --> 01:42:53.270
sources that that are um are most um
01:42:53.280 --> 01:42:54.709
likely for you. It's available in
01:42:54.719 --> 01:42:59.109
paperback, ebook, and audio book. And
01:42:59.119 --> 01:43:01.030
ever since it was published, it's been
01:43:01.040 --> 01:43:02.310
freely available through the National
01:43:02.320 --> 01:43:04.310
Library as well. So if you want to read
01:43:04.320 --> 01:43:06.229
the electronic copy, it's been there
01:43:06.239 --> 01:43:08.870
from International Men's Day last year.
01:43:08.880 --> 01:43:09.910
>> It's very generous.
01:43:09.920 --> 01:43:13.270
>> It's my gift to inform, to start
01:43:13.280 --> 01:43:15.910
conversations, to get the information
01:43:15.920 --> 01:43:16.550
out there.
01:43:16.560 --> 01:43:18.390
>> What sort of feedback have you had? Now,
01:43:18.400 --> 01:43:20.790
don't sugarcoat this either. Has anyone
01:43:20.800 --> 01:43:22.629
been offended by it?
01:43:22.639 --> 01:43:24.229
>> Oh, yeah. I've had push back,
01:43:24.239 --> 01:43:24.550
>> tell me,
01:43:24.560 --> 01:43:25.669
>> negative reactions,
01:43:25.679 --> 01:43:26.470
>> like what?
01:43:26.480 --> 01:43:28.870
>> Um,
01:43:28.880 --> 01:43:31.430
I'm in complete opposition to the
01:43:31.440 --> 01:43:34.070
propositions and the the conclusions
01:43:34.080 --> 01:43:39.590
that I'm reaching. Um, obviously from
01:43:39.600 --> 01:43:41.990
feminist perspective, young female, from
01:43:42.000 --> 01:43:44.149
a leftist perspective,
01:43:44.159 --> 01:43:46.550
uh, a resistance to wanting to engage in
01:43:46.560 --> 01:43:48.709
these conversations.
01:43:48.719 --> 01:43:50.310
Um,
01:43:50.320 --> 01:43:52.629
and
01:43:52.639 --> 01:43:54.310
sometimes that's uncomfortable and
01:43:54.320 --> 01:43:57.109
prickly. You know, as an author, you put
01:43:57.119 --> 01:43:59.830
your work out there in the world. And I
01:43:59.840 --> 01:44:01.830
had this huge excitement and trepidation
01:44:01.840 --> 01:44:04.870
at the time of publication.
01:44:04.880 --> 01:44:08.870
>> And um, obviously some fear about how it
01:44:08.880 --> 01:44:11.510
how your work, how your baby is going to
01:44:11.520 --> 01:44:14.550
be uh, you know, responded to by the
01:44:14.560 --> 01:44:17.270
world. I was honestly concerned that
01:44:17.280 --> 01:44:19.109
there would be a lot of push back and
01:44:19.119 --> 01:44:21.270
there hasn't been nearly as much as as
01:44:21.280 --> 01:44:23.030
my biggest fears.
01:44:23.040 --> 01:44:25.430
>> Uh I've had some very good feedback from
01:44:25.440 --> 01:44:28.149
moms of sons. Some of them just getting
01:44:28.159 --> 01:44:29.590
in touch and saying thank you so much
01:44:29.600 --> 01:44:31.590
for writing this. Like I have these
01:44:31.600 --> 01:44:33.270
conversations with my boys and my young
01:44:33.280 --> 01:44:36.390
men and thank you for being a voice that
01:44:36.400 --> 01:44:38.629
they don't get much support and
01:44:38.639 --> 01:44:39.910
encouragement from many many other
01:44:39.920 --> 01:44:41.669
places. That's why I love that Kelly
01:44:41.679 --> 01:44:43.750
Sloan, the New South Wales opposition
01:44:43.760 --> 01:44:45.189
leader, she's got three sons.
01:44:45.199 --> 01:44:45.510
>> Y
01:44:45.520 --> 01:44:47.590
>> and she's spoken out really positively.
01:44:47.600 --> 01:44:49.350
She's trying to reframe the conversation
01:44:49.360 --> 01:44:51.750
from, you know, masculinity is problem
01:44:51.760 --> 01:44:54.390
to be fixed to let's support and let's
01:44:54.400 --> 01:44:57.189
cherish. And, you know, I think you get
01:44:57.199 --> 01:44:59.350
the sense that she acknowledges the
01:44:59.360 --> 01:45:00.790
complimentarity,
01:45:00.800 --> 01:45:02.470
>> you know, masculine and feminine dancing
01:45:02.480 --> 01:45:03.910
together and the need for us to
01:45:03.920 --> 01:45:05.189
collaborate.
01:45:05.199 --> 01:45:06.790
>> That's what the book's all about.
01:45:06.800 --> 01:45:07.109
>> Yeah.
01:45:07.119 --> 01:45:09.910
>> It's it's questioning the one-sidedness.
01:45:09.920 --> 01:45:10.709
So yeah,
01:45:10.719 --> 01:45:14.070
>> is it doing what you want it to do?
01:45:14.080 --> 01:45:16.790
>> It has started, I think, thousands of
01:45:16.800 --> 01:45:19.189
conversations. It's had a reach in total
01:45:19.199 --> 01:45:20.629
in the millions if you look at all of
01:45:20.639 --> 01:45:22.870
the different um places that it's been
01:45:22.880 --> 01:45:25.189
mentioned and that it's been shared.
01:45:25.199 --> 01:45:27.830
>> So I think it is having
01:45:27.840 --> 01:45:31.189
an the intended uh effect, but also
01:45:31.199 --> 01:45:34.149
remember that wave I talked about. My
01:45:34.159 --> 01:45:36.629
sense is that there's a wave of movement
01:45:36.639 --> 01:45:40.229
towards balance and that people most
01:45:40.239 --> 01:45:42.790
people embrace that at the very extremes
01:45:42.800 --> 01:45:44.310
on both sides. I don't think there's an
01:45:44.320 --> 01:45:46.950
embrace. But I don't think that matters
01:45:46.960 --> 01:45:48.790
so much cuz there are people out there
01:45:48.800 --> 01:45:50.229
you'll never convince.
01:45:50.239 --> 01:45:50.550
>> No.
01:45:50.560 --> 01:45:52.709
>> And we don't need to waste our time
01:45:52.719 --> 01:45:55.990
listening or conversing or wasting our
01:45:56.000 --> 01:45:58.390
breath on those people. I'm more
01:45:58.400 --> 01:46:00.790
interested in having a sensible centrist
01:46:00.800 --> 01:46:02.790
conversation with people of goodwill who
01:46:02.800 --> 01:46:05.910
are open like you and I are to evidence
01:46:05.920 --> 01:46:08.149
and if I think we can persuade on really
01:46:08.159 --> 01:46:10.229
powerful stories and and evidence and
01:46:10.239 --> 01:46:11.830
social harmony
01:46:11.840 --> 01:46:13.510
>> uh benefit for everyone including
01:46:13.520 --> 01:46:15.270
children who currently have their little
01:46:15.280 --> 01:46:16.470
voice
01:46:16.480 --> 01:46:18.629
>> true and I think you know for for the
01:46:18.639 --> 01:46:20.229
for the naysayers as well they're not
01:46:20.239 --> 01:46:22.629
always naysayers for forever sometimes
01:46:22.639 --> 01:46:24.629
you know it might it might take one
01:46:24.639 --> 01:46:26.709
thing and we should not stop trying and
01:46:26.719 --> 01:46:27.910
it's not about convincing convincing
01:46:27.920 --> 01:46:30.390
people. I feel it's about showing people
01:46:30.400 --> 01:46:33.430
and educating ourselves at the same time
01:46:33.440 --> 01:46:35.830
to to to know more and and see different
01:46:35.840 --> 01:46:37.430
perspectives. I mean, I know that every
01:46:37.440 --> 01:46:39.510
day I get up knowing that I'm going to
01:46:39.520 --> 01:46:41.669
know so much more than I did when um I
01:46:41.679 --> 01:46:44.229
go to when I go to sleep, which always
01:46:44.239 --> 01:46:47.109
excites me. It embarrasses me sometimes
01:46:47.119 --> 01:46:48.790
when I think what came out of my mouth
01:46:48.800 --> 01:46:50.709
the day before. But hey, that's all
01:46:50.719 --> 01:46:55.350
right. I own that. Um, now Paula I see
01:46:55.360 --> 01:46:57.030
has just entered the studio which is
01:46:57.040 --> 01:46:59.350
very exciting. So we do have to wrap the
01:46:59.360 --> 01:47:03.430
show uh so we can make space for her.
01:47:03.440 --> 01:47:05.109
Now we have your final special guest
01:47:05.119 --> 01:47:07.750
song request. You did choose s four
01:47:07.760 --> 01:47:09.830
>> and we've only we're only playing three.
01:47:09.840 --> 01:47:10.870
Go. I can't even
01:47:10.880 --> 01:47:12.390
>> I could have picked a hundred. I think I
01:47:12.400 --> 01:47:13.990
mentioned to you how difficult it was to
01:47:14.000 --> 01:47:15.990
narrow them down.
01:47:16.000 --> 01:47:20.229
>> So the the clue is
01:47:20.239 --> 01:47:26.550
when the defibs are needed.
01:47:26.560 --> 01:47:28.070
This was weeks ago. You're really
01:47:28.080 --> 01:47:30.470
testing me here, eh? Uh,
01:47:30.480 --> 01:47:32.709
>> heart starter. Um,
01:47:32.719 --> 01:47:33.590
>> think about
01:47:33.600 --> 01:47:36.790
>> shock close to death.
01:47:36.800 --> 01:47:38.229
>> Bringing someone to life.
01:47:38.239 --> 01:47:39.270
>> Epscence.
01:47:39.280 --> 01:47:42.470
>> Yes. Or fa fading out. Bring bring on
01:47:42.480 --> 01:47:44.790
the defibs.
01:47:44.800 --> 01:47:46.709
But before we say goodbye and go to the
01:47:46.719 --> 01:47:48.790
song, David, thank you. genuinely thank
01:47:48.800 --> 01:47:51.590
you because I know what a great not only
01:47:51.600 --> 01:47:54.070
what a great supporter you are of me and
01:47:54.080 --> 01:47:56.310
you know every day as I said I'm so
01:47:56.320 --> 01:47:58.790
grateful that you know you and and other
01:47:58.800 --> 01:48:00.870
people like you are there encouraging
01:48:00.880 --> 01:48:02.629
and supporting and providing me with
01:48:02.639 --> 01:48:05.750
with information that I can learn but
01:48:05.760 --> 01:48:08.229
also for coming all the way from Canra
01:48:08.239 --> 01:48:12.070
to sit here in the studio um you've not
01:48:12.080 --> 01:48:14.229
just invested personally but
01:48:14.239 --> 01:48:16.629
professionally in in so much of your
01:48:16.639 --> 01:48:18.950
time and your resources is as you said
01:48:18.960 --> 01:48:20.950
just just to do something for other
01:48:20.960 --> 01:48:23.510
people which is very very selfless cuz I
01:48:23.520 --> 01:48:25.189
know there's nothing in this for you.
01:48:25.199 --> 01:48:26.790
There is there is not anything in this
01:48:26.800 --> 01:48:30.070
for you apart from hopefully resonating
01:48:30.080 --> 01:48:32.870
with people and making a difference. So
01:48:32.880 --> 01:48:34.470
that's that's just amazing
01:48:34.480 --> 01:48:36.709
>> and that in itself is a huge reward and
01:48:36.719 --> 01:48:38.149
that's something worth working for and
01:48:38.159 --> 01:48:38.870
striving for.
01:48:38.880 --> 01:48:39.109
>> Yeah.
01:48:39.119 --> 01:48:40.550
>> And I'd encourage everyone else to do
01:48:40.560 --> 01:48:41.430
that too.
01:48:41.440 --> 01:48:43.910
>> Let's work together as a community. And
01:48:43.920 --> 01:48:46.550
apart from your loudmouthedness on this
01:48:46.560 --> 01:48:49.669
show, I do appreciate
01:48:49.679 --> 01:48:51.510
your your approach. It's it's not loud
01:48:51.520 --> 01:48:55.189
and noisy, but it's usually gentle and
01:48:55.199 --> 01:48:57.270
and very very thoughtful. So, it's a
01:48:57.280 --> 01:48:59.510
it's a nice levelheaded approach that
01:48:59.520 --> 01:49:03.510
you have. Um, so everybody,
01:49:03.520 --> 01:49:05.189
this has been what it doesn't feel like
01:49:05.199 --> 01:49:07.669
being you today. Be kind, be curious,
01:49:07.679 --> 01:49:10.470
and don't be a beep because it seriously
01:49:10.480 --> 01:49:13.030
hurts people. So, here we go. This is
01:49:13.040 --> 01:49:16.870
effence and thank you again David. It's
01:49:16.880 --> 01:49:19.750
just been been amazing. You got the
01:49:19.760 --> 01:49:22.070
final word.
01:49:22.080 --> 01:49:24.629
>> It's been a real honor and privilege and
01:49:24.639 --> 01:49:27.910
it's a joy to engage and um
01:49:27.920 --> 01:49:29.990
>> well that's my middle name. So let's go
01:49:30.000 --> 01:49:34.480
out on that. Thank you. Bye.
