Fullstendig transkripsjon av Episode 3 - Associate general counsel at Sun/Oracle and McKesson Corp talks about sage advice for career and life

career. 00:04:55.759 --> 00:05:00.480 That partnership with HR, you know, it's very progressive HR and leaders. 00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:04.800 I think that contributed significantly to the success of that my team had. 00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:09.040 Frankly, you know, the things you said about Sun as a place to work. 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:14.319 It's because of that perspective that leaders uh, you know, in the HR organization brought. 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:15.519 So yeah. 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:22.240 So uh, you know, as far as my working career, I worked on the ramp service at United in college, loading bags. 00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:28.800 And I also did some volunteer work back then, house parent at a home for at-risk youth for Catholic charities. 00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:33.519 And little did I know that 50 years later I would be on the board for Catholic charities. 00:05:33.680 --> 00:05:41.199 So from the age of nine till I retired at 67, I had no forced unemployment periods. 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:42.720 So I was very fortunate. 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:47.839 I worked almost every day, even during law school, for part of law school, I worked to support myself. 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:49.759 So I've been very fortunate that way. 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:52.480 That's been my career trajectory, if you will. 00:05:52.879 --> 00:05:56.079 So let's go into the accomplishments that you're the most proud of. 00:05:56.639 --> 00:06:01.600 Back in 2009, I was inducted as a fellow in the College of Labor and Employment Lawyers. 00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:14.879 And essentially, why that's very gratifying is it's it's the pinnacle of being an employment lawyer because it's recognition by one's employment law peers throughout the country of the highest levels of professionalism and ethics. 00:06:15.040 --> 00:06:16.959 So that's one I'm I'm proud of. 00:06:17.199 --> 00:06:27.199 And then on a personal level, I was married for 26 years to my late wife, and uh, she gave me two beautiful children who were um wonderful people. 00:06:27.839 --> 00:06:32.879 And then I've been very fortunate um to have met somebody and I'm in a committed relationship for the last 10 years. 00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:33.279 Wow. 00:06:33.519 --> 00:06:35.839 So that's a situation today. 00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:36.560 Yeah. 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:38.399 Congratulations on that. 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:46.480 I couldn't imagine being close to retirement, working all those years saving and planning and having it be in your sights. 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:50.319 And then, oh, I'm gonna cry just thinking about it. 00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:56.240 Imagining that, and then having your spouse and your best friend pass away. 00:06:56.319 --> 00:06:58.319 Like I can't imagine what that must have been like. 00:06:58.560 --> 00:07:01.439 Um kick to the gut, so to speak. 00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:12.399 Um, but I guess the Lord had other other plans for you because now you're happy with uh with your new partner

for for 10 years. 00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:13.920 So that makes me happy. 00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:15.040 You deserve it. 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:15.680 Yeah. 00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:16.959 Um so let's talk about it. 00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:17.759 Thank you very much. 00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:18.160 Thank you. 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:24.720 Um, do you have a philosophy um or beliefs that you rely on that guide your choices in life? 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:27.360 Maybe it's the cornball phrase, but it's the golden rule. 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:29.839 Do unto others what we would want done to you. 00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:32.319 I you know, I think that guides me almost every day. 00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:36.639 And then and then the other thing is something I heard from my mom, which is you know, how can I be helpful? 00:07:36.879 --> 00:07:41.439 So I think those are the two philosophies or beliefs that guide me in life choices. 00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:42.079 Yeah. 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:43.279 Um thank you. 00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:45.120 Let's talk about retirement. 00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:46.399 I touched on it a little bit. 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:49.199 How did you prepare and plan for your retirement? 00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:50.720 How did it come about? 00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:52.800 So that you know, that great question. 00:07:52.959 --> 00:07:57.920 I um unlike many people, I had plenty of notice about retirement. 00:07:58.240 --> 00:08:07.199 But knowing that it was 2021 would have been past the time I would have retired anyway, you know, I told my general counsel it didn't make sense. 00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:15.680 She totally understood, and we came to an agreement that I would just stay till the end of January 2021 when they closed the office in San Francisco. 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:19.360 So, okay, so you reached an agreement to stay on until the move. 00:08:19.600 --> 00:08:22.079 And you had two years, I guess, to plan for it. 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:31.199 So were you thinking you were going to go back to work, or what was your decision-making process to like, okay, yeah, I want this is the sign for me to retire? 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:38.000 Like, because some people, when those things happen, they take the package, they put it in the bank or do whatever, and then they go and find another job. 00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:40.320 Well, it depended on the day, quite frankly. 00:08:40.480 --> 00:08:53.279 Some days I thought, wow, you know, I don't want to uh stop working because the I love the work, I love the mental challenge and uh, you know, the puzzle pieces of being an employment lawyer. 00:08:53.360 --> 00:09:05.279 Um, but on the other hand, I thought, you know, now is the time for me to enjoy myself um and and do the things that I wanted to do, to travel, which I've done a lot of, and just have time to myself. 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:07.679 So that I during those two years, that's what I did. 00:09:07.759 --> 00:09:17.360 And then frankly, when the time

came and I left, you know, I had opportunities and you know, I had search firms reach out to me, but none of the roles were really interesting. 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:23.440 And quite frankly, when I started thinking, well, you know, that's great, but gee, that's that's work. 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:27.840 You know, so I quickly got away from that. 00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:30.960 And within a year, I was no longer even thinking about that. 00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:32.159 So yeah, okay. 00:09:32.320 --> 00:09:33.919 So you were so you were ready. 00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:34.960 Yes, yeah. 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:37.120 I was I was very ready to go. 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:38.879 Yeah, how about your partner? 00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:41.120 She's continued working until early this year. 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:42.559 She's a few years younger than me. 00:09:42.799 --> 00:09:47.519 So, how's that transition been with both of you being retired and both of you being um? 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:53.759 Well, it's been great because we've traveled, we took a cruise, we're playing on another cruise. 00:09:53.840 --> 00:10:00.240 Uh she has family in England that she visits, and you know, I still have family in the Philippines that I visit from time to time. 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:03.440 We were just enjoying spending the time with each other, quite frankly. 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:08.000 I mean, being able to do that and not have to worry about the demands of work. 00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:09.679 Yeah, that's that's great. 00:10:09.840 --> 00:10:11.679 That's that's the perfect situation. 00:10:11.919 --> 00:10:18.399 Before you retired, did you have specific goals you wanted to accomplish before you felt like you could retire? 00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:21.840 Whether it be in the workplace, financial, whatever. 00:10:22.159 --> 00:10:27.039 Yes, at least as as far as work, I I wanted to make sure that I found my replacement. 00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:31.759 And so I worked on that for several months and found a great person to take my role. 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:33.200 So I accomplished that. 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:45.759 Beyond that, I think a lot of people don't focus on the financial side of things, you know, not thinking about, you know, you save and save and save, but you don't really think about, well, how does that actually work once you're retired? 00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:49.279 What investments do I put my assets into? 00:10:49.360 --> 00:10:57.600 And what are the range of investments that I should be considering and, you know, making sure that it lasts through my lifetime? 00:10:57.759 --> 00:10:59.679 Um so I focus on that as well. 00:10:59.840 --> 00:11:04.159 But really, you know, it was just finding somebody to replace me was the focus for me. 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:04.799 Yeah. 00:11:05.039 --> 00:11:15.679 Were there any tools that you relied on that you found were helpful or any specific thinking and examination that you did that made you feel like, okay, I'm ready now. 00:11:15.759 --> 00:11:21.440 I really feel like I've turned over every rock, I've analyzed every situation, I've anticipated everything. 00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:22.799 I think I've got this. 00:11:23.039 --> 00:11:23.440 Yeah. 00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:33.440 Oh, I was very fortunate because as I left McKesson, they offered out placement services, but part of that was really just counseling about the next phase of my career. 00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:35.279 And in that case, it was retirement. 00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:35.519 Okay. 00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:40.240 So talking to that counselor helped me think about what to be thinking about. 00:11:40.399 --> 00:11:44.799 And we weren't focusing on, and I wasn't focusing on finding a job. 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:47.039 It was more of what do I do next? 00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:48.399 How do I keep busy? 00:11:48.559 --> 00:11:55.759 And um, you know, the financial piece, you know, what resources should I be looking to for for financial planning? 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:58.399 I did that as well during those two years. 00:11:58.639 --> 00:11:58.960 Right. 00:11:59.200 --> 00:12:03.679 So the counselor helped you then think about retirement, not just finding another job. 00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:04.639 That's really nice. 00:12:04.720 --> 00:12:08.480 You know, I think a lot of people get offered that and they think, oh, I don't need it. 00:12:08.720 --> 00:12:16.080 Almost every person I've ever spoken with that has been offered those outplacement services, at least that's what they used to call them. 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:18.639 Phrase has now been transition support. 00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:26.159 Every person that I've ever spoken to, and I've spoken to a lot being an HR for 20 plus years, has always come back and said that was really helpful. 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:28.320 It was it was a good use of time. 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:36.159 Tell me a little bit about the questions they asked you and what was most helpful for you about that process and investing that time in that. 00:12:36.399 --> 00:12:57.039 Well, I think, you know, I can't remember specific questions now, but I I remember that what they did was test my plan by asking me questions, and it solidified in my mind that I didn't want to work uh in a corporate law job anymore, that I wanted to retire and made me realize that the things I was answering had nothing to do with finding another job. 00:12:57.200 --> 00:12:59.840 Well, you know, what do I want to do in my my next phase? 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:01.200 So that's how it was helpful. 00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:05.039 It was an iterative uh process, you know, question and answer. 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:13.919 And you know, they had some ideas of what I could be doing, but quite frankly, I do that myself, which is fine boards I work on, activities that I'm enjoying. 00:13:14.080 --> 00:13:16.159 So I didn't really need help with that. 00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:22.240 It was really to help my

mind get to that spot or to that space where let's not look for another job. 00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:23.600 That's not what I want to do. 00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:24.559 Right. 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:34.639 So I know you're not engaged in business activities, but let's pivot now to now that you've decided you want to retire, you want to focus your time on other things. 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:36.159 What are those things? 00:13:36.480 --> 00:13:43.440 Well, maybe see, my problem is like it's hard for me to say no when I get asked to serve one organization or another. 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:44.879 So let me just tell you what I'm on. 00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:49.679 So I'm on the board of that, the College of Labor and Employment Lawyers, that organization I mentioned earlier. 00:13:49.759 --> 00:13:55.840 It's a national organization with 1,250 employment lawyers in the country. 00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:58.799 And I'm on that have been for five years. 00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:02.559 I rolled off the board of Catholic charities, but I'm still on the HR committee. 00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:12.000 I recently joined the board for Benetech that enables reading challenge individuals to read, and it works with school districts throughout the country. 00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:15.519 Okay, so you're doing that and then let's see, what else am I doing? 00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:29.679 Oh, I guess you know, about two and a half years ago, I started as uh an organization, a nonprofit organization that provides peer grief counseling and has about 200 volunteer counselors, of which I'm one. 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:35.279 And it was a lifesaver for me when I was a client of Kara after my wife passed away. 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:41.279 And so I started doing it two years ago, and I do individual and group peer counseling for them now, too. 00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:45.679 And it's just being able to talk to somebody who's in a different stage of the grief process. 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:52.879 Yeah, you know, so it might be somebody that's qualified to help someone through that because a lot of times they want to help, but they don't know what to say. 00:14:53.039 --> 00:14:54.799 They're afraid they're gonna say the wrong thing. 00:14:55.039 --> 00:15:02.000 The person that's that has the loss is lonely and wants someone to talk to to process their feelings. 00:15:02.320 --> 00:15:04.799 And that can be a really lonely spot for people. 00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:12.320 So that's uh that's wonderful that you do that and and that you benefited from it and now you're you're giving back to the community. 00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:17.600 I think the big thing is we've been in their truth ourselves, so that helps, I think. 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:18.960 Yeah, I think so. 00:15:19.519 --> 00:15:28.000 We have a grief ministry at the church that I go to and a friend of mine leads it, and I said, Oh, hey, I can come in and help. 00:15:28.159 --> 00:15:30.879 And she said, Why don't you come in and sit in with us? 00:15:31.120 --> 00:15:45.840 And I thought I was fine, and then we went around and it got to me, and I started crying because I started talking about a loss that I had had, and I was like, Oh, good Lord, I thought I was gonna be here to be help be a grief counselor to help others. 00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:52.000 And um, it made me realize I had some unresolved grief, right? 00:15:52.159 --> 00:15:58.639 You know, I got the support that I needed, and I've always thought about going back and helping. 00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:00.639 I'm such an empath, though. 00:16:00.879 --> 00:16:09.440 I have a very hard time not crying when I'm in those groups because everybody's story and emotions touch me. 00:16:09.679 --> 00:16:13.840 I don't think it that's helpful to people if I do that. 00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:19.919 So um, I think I would need some a little bit more training before I could be prepared to do something like that. 00:16:20.320 --> 00:16:21.519 You're raising a very good point. 00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:30.080 So volunteers go through about 25 hours of training, lead people to realize if this is something they can do or want to do. 00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:30.480 Yeah. 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:32.720 Because it is it can be very intense. 00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:38.480 So to summarize back to you, you got support from Kara and now you're giving back. 00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:40.480 Like, how beautiful is that, Ted? 00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:42.159 That you've done that. 00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:49.600 What advice do you have for people thinking about or in the midst of creating a satisfying next chapter for themselves? 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:53.440 Well, I think it starts with what I said earlier, kind of planning for it. 00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:55.279 You know, what is it that you want to do? 00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:57.360 You know, start forming networks. 00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:06.480 If you haven't already done that, you should probably be doing that all your career or all your life, networks of people you can talk to and identify what you want to do. 00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:07.839 I think that's the key thing. 00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:09.440 Because there is going to be an adjustment. 00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:17.440 You know, there I will tell you that first year was tough because all of a sudden, you know, I was no longer relevant, right? 00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:19.119 Nobody was calling for my advice. 00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:24.640 I think that's the thing to anticipate that there's going to be a perhaps an abrupt change in in that. 00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:27.279 And so you have to be able to adjust. 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:28.960 And then I I was very fortunate. 00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:36.319 I had good mentors and friends who kind of who were ahead of me, and they gave me some good advice about what to do in retirement. 00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:42.319 I'll always remember the former general counsel at Sun who became a very good friend of mine, Mike

Dillon. 00:17:42.559 --> 00:17:42.720 Yeah. 00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:48.559 You know, he had retired early in his 60s from Adobe, where he was general counsel. 00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:52.240 There for me when my wife passed and um supported me. 00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:58.000 And then he came to me and said, Ted, you know, when you retire, you gotta do three things. 00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:01.039 You know, you gotta every day do have one of three things. 00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:04.400 Do something fun, do something relevant. 00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:08.480 And then the third thing was get do something on your to-do list, you know. 00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:13.440 So to which at least I've added a fourth thing, which I tell people, which is give back. 00:18:13.599 --> 00:18:16.799 So I think those four points are what I keep in mind every day. 00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:19.279 Okay, which of these things am I doing today? 00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:23.839 So that that's what I've done to prepare for and to live in retirement. 00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:26.480 So, okay, I love the four bullets. 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:29.839 I'm gonna borrow that because I I'm kind of in that midst. 00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:31.599 I think I'm figuring it out. 00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:32.160 Yep. 00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:35.279 How did you unpack process? 00:18:35.519 --> 00:18:41.680 Because I I struggle with that, you know, when I first retired, and are people gonna want to talk to me at a dinner party? 00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:47.119 Like I'm not the VP of blah blah blah, you know, I don't work at XYZ company. 00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:48.799 Like, who's gonna want to talk to me? 00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:55.920 You know, which is actually kind of a sad state that I put so much value on that for myself, but that's where I was back then. 00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:02.640 Um I think that's typical, you know, we define ourselves by our you you went through that too, so it wasn't just yeah, okay. 00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:08.240 I did, and and it was amplified, if you will, because it was during COVID, 2021. 00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:12.079 So it wasn't like I could escape and go somewhere because the travel was limited. 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:16.000 I was at home, you know, I wasn't getting calls, as I said, for work. 00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:18.319 And how I defined myself was now gone. 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:20.160 So that was an adjustment in the beginning. 00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:21.680 You know, I did start to travel. 00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:29.039 One of the first things I did, Lisa, I think it was October of 2021, and we're again we're right in the middle of COVID still, and very few countries are open. 00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:31.759 But I looked at the map as so where can I go? 00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:33.599 That's not closed. 00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:34.720 Iceland. 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:36.319 Never been to Iceland. 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:40.799 300,000 people in the whole country, never been there, and it's open. 00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:42.079 So I went to Iceland. 00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:43.200 How was it? 00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:44.400 Oh, it's wonderful. 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:45.119 I want to go back. 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:57.680 But getting back to your point, the first year was a challenge, you know, redefining who I was, and like I said, reconnecting with old friends, enjoying things I didn't have a chance to do when I was working. 00:19:57.920 --> 00:19:58.319 Yeah. 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:00.160 Yeah, I'm finding that too. 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:06.640 I'm finding I'm doing things that I really enjoy doing early on in my life. 00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:11.759 And then schooling and work and mothering and family and everything else. 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:14.000 So it's kind of interesting, I'm finding. 00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:19.200 How have your personal and professional relationships changed in retirement? 00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:23.440 I have a core group of guys and men I grew up with. 00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:28.319 I met them in grammar school and we have remained friends all these decades. 00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:43.039 The conversation has changed instead of talking about sports, and now we're talking about health and uh what ails us and what we laugh about it, and we but we see each other regularly, if not weekly. 00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:47.119 Uh so I've reconnected with them, but I never really lost touch with them. 00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:48.559 I spent more time with them. 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:53.440 As I said, I reconnected with some grammar school and high school friends professionally. 00:20:53.839 --> 00:21:01.599 I still uh because I'm on that organization, that College of Labor and Employment Lawyers, um, I still have contact with practicing lawyers. 00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:05.599 And and I've kept my license uh active. 00:21:05.839 --> 00:21:10.559 So I attend continuing education programs, so I I keep current with the law. 00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:13.519 So that's that mental engagement, which I also enjoy. 00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:16.799 What three things would you tell your pre-retirement self? 00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:23.599 Uh first thing, and I tell this to all the students and young lawyers I mentor, is that it's a long game. 00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:31.519 You may be disappointed in the moment with something that's happened, but believe me, in the long run, just plan for the long term. 00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:33.920 I think that's the piece of advice I give them. 00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:35.759 You know, the power of networking. 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:44.480 People I met many, many years ago were very helpful to me in my later years of my career because of the connections I had made early in my career. 00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:52.559 When I left Oracle, well, it was silent, when Oracle acquired it, I thought, well, here I am in my mid fifties, how am I ever gonna find a job? 00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:56.640 I'll have to look nationwide for

a role at my level. 00:21:56.880 --> 00:21:59.599 And then fast forward, I was interviewing. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.839 McCassin reached out to me and finally I got to meet the general counsel. 00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:07.599 And the general counsel said, Well, we were meant to meet. 00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:11.599 Several lawyers mentioned me as somebody they should talk to. 00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:14.240 And to this day, I don't know who those lawyers were. 00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:19.359 These are people I obviously networked with who knew me and knew I was looking. 00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:23.200 I so I think that that's the story I tell students and young lawyers. 00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:27.519 Can you elaborate a little bit more on the advice that you give students? 00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:39.119 Our generation and the next generation has a different cadence as far as their expectation of when things should happen. 00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:43.440 And it's it's it's much more rapid than our generation. 00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:47.599 And sometimes that's doable and reasonable, and sometimes it's not. 00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:56.160 I'm not a financial won, but uh what I tell you. 00:22:57.039 --> 00:22:58.799 Even on goal setting, right, for their careers. 00:22:59.039 --> 00:22:59.839 Whatever, whatever. 00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:00.079 Yeah. 00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:08.640 Well, I'll say something on both topics, but really the first thing about goal setting is just you know, set yourself a five-year plan and a 10-year plan. 00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:23.039 I really did take it seriously, and check in with yourself every so often to see how you're doing or what you need to do more of or differently, you know, be intentional about your career is what I tell them, especially lawyers in companies. 00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:34.960 I say, is there experience you need to get where you are working, or or you need to develop or to increase uh your knowledge and skills to make yourself more marketable even within the organization? 00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:39.839 How do you get different assignments, you know, to to develop uh new skills? 00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:42.720 How do you navigate the corporate legal world? 00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:46.720 That's the kind of advice I I give when I'm mentoring uh students. 00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:48.559 You know, how do you gain experience? 00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:59.200 You know, I honestly did this myself as I moved from law careers in the smokestack industry to defense industry to tech and then pharmaceuticals. 00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:05.359 You know, I was always thinking ahead, okay, what where do I want to be next and what experience do I need to get? 00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:12.240 And then as far as financial planning, I always tell my kids, you know, you pay yourself first, you know, put money away before you see it. 00:24:12.400 --> 00:24:16.160 And if you don't see it and you put it away, then you won't miss it. 00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:18.640 You know, so it's a very simple advice. 00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:24.240 And the power of compounding is just you know, to keep earning money, and pretty soon it's it's real money. 00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:30.880 It's very simple, actually, you know, and I'm not one to take to invest in anything I don't understand. 00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:34.000 So I don't understand crypto, so I don't invest in crypto. 00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:37.759 So those are the kind of pieces of advice I give my kids. 00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:38.559 You know. 00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:51.839 Yeah, I'm a mom of five, and I engage in conversations with my young adults about just how hard it is to save money and affordability. 00:24:52.240 --> 00:25:03.680 And their persp some of their perspectives are not all of them, some of them is, you know, I had it easier because um things didn't cost as much, jobs were more plentiful. 00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:08.400 And so their perspective is that things have really changed and things have really become harder. 00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:15.119 And there's there's facts to point to that, and there's facts that point it was just as hard back then when we first started. 00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:17.279 So I don't work with students though. 00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:31.839 So I was curious what you're feeling or experiencing when you're engaging in these types of conversations with the next generation on their career planning professionally and and also financially. 00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:38.240 No, I I think some of it's still the same, but uh but I I would grant them that it is difficult. 00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:50.720 It's you know, I wouldn't want to be coming out of law school today, you know, with the advent of AI and how that's disrupting the legal profession and and everything else, the HR organiz, you know, a profession. 00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:53.119 Um, it would be very challenging for me. 00:25:53.200 --> 00:26:01.680 But that that's also a reflection of me and and you know my age, I guess, you know, uh but it is hard. 00:26:01.839 --> 00:26:05.119 Uh, you know, I I think we had it hard in a different kind of way. 00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:18.720 We may have forgotten it because it's been decades, but you know, it was hard to find jobs back then too, and you didn't have the internet and you had to you know re-look and and and um uh you know certain things weren't open to people uh back then. 00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:21.440 So, you know, it was hard in a different way. 00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:26.079 There's a lot of uncertainty, even with the interest rates. 00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:29.279 I bought my first house and interest rates were double digits. 00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:30.000 Yeah. 00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:35.119 So, you know, they're not double they're not double digits right now, right? 00:26:35.359 --> 00:26:39.359 So, but it but it is harder, and I don't want to minimize it. 00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:58.880 I want the podcast to be something

that anybody that's curious about retirement or the next chapter to be thinking about some of these things as far as their career and their career progression and financially, you know, do I do that DoorDash and spend that$30? 00:26:59.359 --> 00:27:00.880 How much money is that? 00:27:01.119 --> 00:27:03.119 $30 here,$100 there. 00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:05.680 Some people go, well, that's nothing, that doesn't matter. 00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:17.200 But the compounding effect of that over three, five, 10 years and the interest that it makes, and if you just let it sit there, it's it can be significant. 00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:25.119 But when you're looking at a starter house being a million and a half dollars in the Bay Area, somebody that's going, what's$30 gonna do? 00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:29.440 That's not gonna make or break me and get me closer to the million, but I think it can. 00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:34.640 So and I think there's just little things that people, it's just a mindset shift, I think. 00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:39.920 Uh I think you're you're reminding me of something my late mom used to tell me all the time. 00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:45.440 You know, she was a school teacher and she'd say to me, and again, this wasn't original with her, I'd read it somewhere else. 00:27:46.079 --> 00:27:48.559 It's not what you make, it's what you keep. 00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:58.960 So and this coming from a school teacher, and she's right, you know, and yes, obviously what you make is important, but just as important as what you keep and what you don't spend. 00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:00.319 What you don't spend, yeah. 00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:01.119 That's what we say. 00:28:01.519 --> 00:28:03.519 Yeah, I'm a firm believer in that as well. 00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:09.039 So okay, any other nuggets or wisdom about next chapters? 00:28:09.440 --> 00:28:13.440 Take advantage of the time you have that you can do things. 00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:22.400 So I'm uh I do believe in that, you know, what people say there's a in retirement, there are go-go years, the go slow years, and the no-go years. 00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:27.279 And while you still have time in your go-go years, take advantage of that. 00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:32.400 And if travel is in that, in your plans, I think that's the time to be doing it. 00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:34.960 Enjoy life while you can. 00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:36.640 That's something that I live. 00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:39.119 Yeah, yeah, that's wonderful. 00:28:39.279 --> 00:28:59.200 Yeah, I think for some people that have been go, go, go, I am learning how to have joy because my life was so much about working and the title and the job and the career and the company and saving money because I'm I'm a big say I always I've always been a big saver. 00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:08.000 Um, I can spend too if I want, but I'm always like it, whenever I got a an increase, it's like, okay, sock over 50% of it away. 00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:11.599 I didn't need it before, sock 50% of it away or more. 00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:15.279 Um, and so I I saved early on in life. 00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:19.440 I don't know if that resonates with, but I'm such a serious person. 00:29:19.599 --> 00:29:23.920 I've been a serious person since I was I was young, and it served me well. 00:29:24.079 --> 00:29:27.920 It it helped shape the life that I, but I don't want to be so serious anymore. 00:29:28.079 --> 00:29:30.319 This is a chapter where I really want to have fun. 00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:35.759 Yeah, you know, but it's taking, you know, uh being open to experience. 00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:36.160 Yeah. 00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:48.000 So I told you about the cruise we took, and during that cruise, we were sitting there uh the evenings and they had ballroom dancing, and you know, um passengers were dancing, ballroom dance. 00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:53.119 We don't do ballroom dancing, but get what guess what lessons we're taking now for the next cruise. 00:29:54.079 --> 00:29:54.960 That's wonderful. 00:29:55.119 --> 00:30:08.240 Yeah, my husband and I took lessons for our wedding and then our daughter's wedding, and he loves it because he gets to in in ballroom dancing, the man leads and the woman has to follow. 00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:14.000 And my husband goes, This is the only time I get to boss you around, and I'll I'll anticipate a move with his hand. 00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:17.759 He goes, uh uh-uh, that's not what I'm gonna do. 00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:23.680 So it's early in our process, but I'm enjoying it. 00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:32.880 I took up tennis two years ago because I said, Okay, when you get around to retiring, let's be doing something that we are already halfway decent at. 00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:35.920 So I'm taking tennis lessons and we're playing together. 00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:36.960 We're having fun. 00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:39.519 So well, thank you. 00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:44.240 This episode we talked about loss and grief. 00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:48.000 I believe it's an important next chapter issue for us to discuss. 00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:50.799 I hope you found inspiration in Ted's story. 00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:56.960 Switching gears, I loved his idea of thinking about your next chapter in three phases. 00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:02.160 The go-go years, the go slow years, and the no go years. 00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:05.759 Thank you for listening and your support of our podcast. 00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:08.400 Go out and make your next chapter amazing. 00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:09.519 Thanks for listening. 00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:11.039 We'll see you soon.