Fullstendig transkripsjon av An Interview with Brian Butler, AI and the Legal Practice

00:04:46.879 --> 00:04:47.439 Completely. 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:54.720 So as you're talking about this, what are some of the biggest challenges you're seeing in the legal profession right now? 00:04:55.920 --> 00:04:56.399 Opportunities. 00:04:56.480 --> 00:04:56.800 Let me say that. 00:04:56.879 --> 00:04:57.439 What are the biggest? 00:04:58.720 --> 00:04:59.360 No, I know. 00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:04.399 I it's that's a good optimistic uh use of of words. 00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:07.199 And they're there are challenges and opportunities, right? 00:05:07.279 --> 00:05:10.160 But they're they co they coexist with each other, right? 00:05:10.560 --> 00:05:23.839 I mean, the you know, the one thing that I think a lot of lawyers and law firms are struggling with is you know providing services to our clients under this new model, right? 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:28.959 Our, you know, we've historically had an hourly rate industry, right? 00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:35.360 And most of you know, our financial relationships with clients are based on build billable hours. 00:05:35.519 --> 00:05:37.680 That will that will definitely shift. 00:05:37.839 --> 00:05:39.920 There's no there's no question about that. 00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:47.680 And and you know, we're adapting how we um uh uh developed our relationships with clients based upon that. 00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:50.399 And and they're they're gonna expect that as well. 00:05:50.639 --> 00:06:00.000 But increased efficiencies, that doesn't change how we really how we provide legal services to our clients. 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:04.000 I mean, that's happened throughout you know our careers. 00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:09.680 I mean, I you know, I've been doing this, you've been doing this for a while, but not that long, right? 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:12.560 And so, I mean, at least in relative terms. 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:13.519 Exactly. 00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:14.720 That's kind of you. 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:22.079 But you know, when I when I started practicing law, people were writing briefs on yellow legal pads. 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:22.800 Right. 00:06:22.879 --> 00:06:24.240 It wasn't e-discovery. 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:25.519 We weren't doing electronics. 00:06:26.720 --> 00:06:27.040 Yeah. 00:06:27.199 --> 00:06:35.199 And you know, we might add one at the first firm I started, we had one monitor where we could do online legal research and the website, right? 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:39.120 And most of it was, you know, most of the stuff that we did was paper. 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:48.720 And that that evolved and we got more efficient, we became more effective, and we're able to deliver services to our our clients and in a better way. 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:50.560 And that's that's what this is too. 00:06:50.720 --> 00:06:52.560 I I don't I don't view this as any different. 00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:56.000 It's just that the changes are happening quicker than they have been. 00:06:56.079 --> 00:07:00.879 And so we have to be able to adapt at a greater pace than we had in the past. 00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:02.639 But, you know, that's one of the things here. 00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:09.120 So rates, you know, kind of focus on industry specific specialization, right? 00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:17.920 Our clients expect that the lawyers that they hire know them and know their industries and know the opportunities and challenges that that they have. 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:26.079 And so really kind of uh keying in on that is is important for long-term success of a law firm. 00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:33.439 We're a service business, and we need to provide services that are geared toward, you know, our client needs. 00:07:33.519 --> 00:07:41.680 So that's a uh, you know, an opportunity that continues to exist for us to evolve and and improve. 00:07:41.839 --> 00:07:48.879 And then, you know, with respect to talent, you know, there's a lot more mobility in our profession now. 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:55.279 There's some uh expectations of flexibility as well. 00:07:55.759 --> 00:08:10.720 And so providing that in a way that also allows us to be incredibly responsive to our clients is you know can be um can be a challenge, but is also you know an opportunity like like we've discussed. 00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:14.720 You know, we're not to provide the great services that we provide. 00:08:14.800 --> 00:08:19.759 We don't have to, we don't have to be glued to our desk chair, right? 00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:21.279 Exactly, exactly. 00:08:21.600 --> 00:08:21.759 Yeah. 00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:38.960 And so those are all things that I think are you know are happening and the technology is allowing us to, you know, create different opportunities for people and to develop different ways of approaching our work for our clients. 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:40.960 That I think is really exciting. 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:41.919 Absolutely. 00:08:42.080 --> 00:08:42.720 I think so too. 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:47.039 And so I think sometimes uh we get a lot of law students and young lawyers who listen. 00:08:47.279 --> 00:08:51.120 So what's still at the core of being a great lawyer? 00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:59.120 So I I I think not number one is having intellectual curiosity, right? 00:08:59.279 --> 00:09:02.879 And and and that's really centered around problem solving. 00:09:03.039 --> 00:09:06.399 That's what we're that's what we're hired to do, right? 00:09:06.559 --> 00:09:12.879 Clients clients don't come to us for things that they can handle themselves, right? 00:09:13.039 --> 00:09:32.720 They're looking to us for advice, and we have to be curious about their business, their issues, their teams, what types of things you know they consider when making decisions, and then help them solve, you know, solve that problem. 00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:35.200 So that's incredibly important. 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:41.759 Having great judgment is a you know crucial element, being a good lawyer.

00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:52.960 Our communication skills, and I I even think with you know the advent of and use of AI, you know, those kind of core skills. 00:09:53.120 --> 00:10:06.399 I almost think back to, you know, there was at one point, and I want to offend anybody, but at one point in time, kind of the liberal arts, you know, education was starting to look like, well, maybe it should all be STEM, right? 00:10:06.559 --> 00:10:13.039 Everybody should go, you know, and then you know, study those types of professions in school. 00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:29.360 But I think, you know, the liberal arts training is going to be crucial because a lot of the things that we used to rely heavily on, you know, math, science, and engineering, engineering for us, you know, that we're gonna still need that. 00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:34.799 But some of that will be available to more people than it than it used to be. 00:10:34.960 --> 00:10:44.559 And now it's a communication skills, it's the ability to synthesize information and communicate that out to clients and others, right? 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:46.480 That'll be critically important. 00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:51.440 And then just maintaining that high level of responsiveness. 00:10:51.679 --> 00:10:52.320 Yes. 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:56.320 And and and doing that, you just gain trust, right? 00:10:56.399 --> 00:11:05.759 Whether it's people that you're working with or your clients, if you're responsive, if you're on top of things, you know, that that's not gonna be replaced by AI. 00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:07.759 You're gonna, you know, you're gonna have to do that. 00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:08.879 Yeah, absolutely. 00:11:08.960 --> 00:11:19.519 I mean, we hear this, like if we're some of the projects we're working on, we hear this that our our own clients are saying that like that's the thing that they value the most, is how responsive we are, how people get back to them. 00:11:19.600 --> 00:11:23.759 And that will remain, you know, AI can't replace that piece of it. 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:24.639 Absolutely. 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:25.039 Yeah. 00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:25.679 All right. 00:11:25.759 --> 00:11:29.200 Well, this all sets up our conversation on AI very well, right? 00:11:29.279 --> 00:11:31.600 Because it's the foundation of being a good lawyer. 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:34.720 Because the tools are changing, but those fundamentals are not. 00:11:34.879 --> 00:11:35.039 Right. 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:41.039 So, how are you thinking about AI in the context of bond and then the legal industry more broadly? 00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:46.080 In the context of our firm, you know, we're really looking at it in in two ways, right? 00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:51.200 How can we use this technology to to better serve our clients? 00:11:51.360 --> 00:11:51.759 Right. 00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:55.919 And so that's, you know, that's one piece of this. 00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:59.200 And we look at it, there are a lot of different facets to it, right? 00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:03.759 What are the appropriate tools that we should be employing, right? 00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:04.960 That's one thing. 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:17.759 And, you know, what are our clients' expectations with respect to, you know, our use of AI, both and how we deliver the services to them and what our rates are, which we just talked about, and all those types of things. 00:12:17.919 --> 00:12:25.360 And then how are we going to use it in a responsible and ethical way, right? 00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:36.559 A responsible, you know, manner includes all sorts of things, including, you know, the security of our information and our clients' information, right? 00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:43.360 We know that these some of these tools reach out to, you know, to the web, right? 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:45.600 And can be disclosed. 00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:48.639 And we have to be really careful about that. 00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:57.440 And we set up processes and and security internally to prevent that from happening. 00:12:57.679 --> 00:12:59.440 And then, you know, the ethical use. 00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:05.120 I mean, we see, you know, we see things in the legal news all the time. 00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:07.759 It's not actually in the in the just the legal news. 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:13.519 I mean, it makes national management lawyers don't use it appropriately. 00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:16.879 So we're really, we're really focused on that. 00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:20.799 And so we look at it as another just another tool, right? 00:13:21.039 --> 00:13:29.840 It's another tool that we have to use responsibly and ethically and effectively to provide legal services to our client. 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:36.720 But we definitely don't use it as a replacement for lawyers and or or or associates for that matter. 00:13:36.879 --> 00:13:46.000 I mean, I've heard some people say, oh, you know, this AI will take the place of first and second year or third year of associated work. 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:49.759 I don't see that as the as a case at all. 00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:59.840 I actually think it's exciting for them because they're not going to be stuck in conference rooms reviewing boxes of documents like we were, Ken. 00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:01.759 And there's so many paper cuts, really. 00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:05.360 Exactly. 00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:24.320 I mean, we can start, you know, it actually causes us to think about how we mentor and train associates because it will cause them to start thinking about the stuff that is really exciting about being a lawyer, which is the strategic thinking, which is the case development. 00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:30.399 It's not the it's not the mechanics of doing a doc review, right? 00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:32.639 So I think it's exciting. 00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:33.360 It's great. 00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:35.120 I think it's going to be great. 00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:41.360 You were talking a bit

about that balance, like the, you know, I think people have a lot of excitement and then there's a lot of concern. 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:50.080 And we have a practice group that helps clients with these issues of AI, and of course, our data privacy and cybersecurity practice group as well. 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:55.840 And then we have this higher ed practice group that has academic freedom and you know, everything's about a balance. 00:14:56.080 --> 00:15:01.600 At the firm or in the law, can you talk a little bit more about that balance, the use and the safety? 00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:05.759 And, you know, are there is it a constant education or policies? 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:07.759 How do you kind of manage that? 00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:13.360 Yeah, and I mean, uh and as as lawyers, I think that's a foundational requirement. 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:20.799 We're we are required to stay on top of changing technologies, right? 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:26.480 That's actually one of the specified ethical Yeah, the rules of professional, right? 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:27.679 Yes, it's true. 00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:39.840 So, you know, we can start from that point and then balance our use of technology against you know how how we use it responsibly and ethically. 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:49.120 And those if if you do it the right way, that is not as challenging as it could be, right? 00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:58.240 Because when you start like we do at our firm from a foundation of, you know, one kind of mentoring and education, right? 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:06.799 We're we're constantly providing programming to our attorneys around topics like this, right? 00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:14.000 So that they know, hey, here's what's available to us, and here's what what the risks are, right? 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:16.799 And the and the opportunities, like like we talked about. 00:16:16.960 --> 00:16:34.799 And then so once you once you have that core knowledge base, then ensuring that, you know, this balance is maintained between effectively using the technology, but not, you know, using it to the point where, you know, it's ineffective or irresponsible, you know, that becomes a bit easier. 00:16:34.879 --> 00:16:45.279 And I think we do a really good job with the foundational work that's required in order for us to be able to, you know, to balance satisfactively. 00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:47.200 Yeah, it's so important, right? 00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:49.200 Because it's changing so frequently. 00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:55.679 I think we've updated our AI policy several times already to stay on top of the changes. 00:16:55.919 --> 00:17:03.360 We were in a um a prompt engineering class together, and now that's not even part of what is that, 18 months ago? 00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:07.680 Yeah, I don't even I've heard that term since then. 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:09.039 Yeah, exactly. 00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:30.240 That's how much this has changed and how quickly that reminded me

of old school online database research a little bit, prompt engineering, like yes, query correctly, exactly you know, and I don't even think students today in law schools learn that terms and connectors way of searching natural language. 00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:34.319 So this for them, this is gonna be easy adoption, I think. 00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:35.759 That's right, exactly. 00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:39.200 Yeah, and I think I think that's just a perfect, a perfect example. 00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:49.920 When we started in our online research on Lexus and Westline, you had to be pretty darn good creating your search to get the right results, right? 00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:58.720 And and and the technology's changed there so much that you know, kind of that natural language, you know, questioning works, right? 00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:03.680 And that's the same thing when when AI started, we're in the same, yeah. 00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:10.000 The fact that they called prompt engineering indicates how technical it actually was. 00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:14.880 And now it's like asking your friend or your work colleague a question, right? 00:18:15.119 --> 00:18:15.519 That's it. 00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:21.359 Yeah, you're just like, hey, you know, um, what should I do about X to a friend? 00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:24.960 And that's actually no, you get better, and that's the other thing. 00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:30.079 You you do get better at it though, yeah when you're more knowledgeable about the area you're in. 00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:39.680 You get better, you know, you get better results when you draw from your experience and your learning, but you can ask a pretty basic prompt to get started. 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:41.200 Right, right, exactly. 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:51.839 Yeah, and it's and I I think it's important to know that, you know, as with any other technology, you know, the more you use it, the better, you know. 00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:52.240 Yeah. 00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:54.799 The more, the more you get out of it, right? 00:18:55.119 --> 00:19:00.000 And so, you know, we're encouraging people in the firm to do that, right? 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:06.079 We just you know, you just had a meeting with some of our senior administrative folks. 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:09.599 And one of the messages to them was use it, right? 00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:14.559 Take take some time every day to just be curious about it. 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:23.200 And, you know, if you think of something, you know, try to use AI to solve that problem and see how it see how it works. 00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:25.359 So that's that's part of it, you know. 00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:33.279 It's just uh, you know, have the curiosity to say, hey, what can this do to help me in my you know, my work? 00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:34.240 Exactly. 00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:36.000 How can I make this product better? 00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:38.160 Yeah, absolutely. 00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:40.319 So with clients, is it a mix? 00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:45.359 Like are some clients expecting firms to use it and others are still a bit cautious? 00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:54.400 So from from what I'm hearing from clients, they they expect what they've always expected, right? 00:19:54.720 --> 00:20:01.519 Is for us to deliver high quality, efficient, and effective legal services to them. 00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:09.599 And you know, included in that is using technology that is available to us to do that, right? 00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:20.799 And so whether they say we want you to use AI or not, that's you know, I I don't I don't think that's the request, right? 00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:22.319 Or the expectation. 00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:29.200 It's clients are savvy, they're keeping up with this technology as well. 00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:34.960 Their workforce is becoming more efficient and how they operate on a daily basis. 00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:36.720 So they just expect that from us. 00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:37.279 Right. 00:20:38.079 --> 00:20:53.279 And and so, you know, whether clients are coming to us and saying you have to use AI or not, you know, I'm I'm not, I don't think we necessarily get that every day, but the expectation is that we use the technology to better serve them, right? 00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:53.680 Yeah. 00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:55.680 And so that's what we're doing, right? 00:20:55.839 --> 00:21:08.640 And and it's also, I think one of the interesting components of our practice since we've really dug into this and we've created uh teams to explore our use of AI. 00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:13.279 It actually has allowed us to counsel clients in that area as well. 00:21:13.519 --> 00:21:17.039 There are a lot of regulated industries. 00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:26.799 There are significant, you know, employment-related issues with respect to the use of AI and all those things. 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:49.039 You know, our internal digging as to, you know, how we're going to use it and how it can be effective in helping us operate our business has also allowed us to gain the necessary level experience to advise our clients on how they should be using it as well, which is a cool outgrowth of the work that we've been doing over the past two and a half years. 00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:50.319 Yeah, it's terrific. 00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:59.759 And I I think it was it was January 2024, and you and I were at a a bar meeting in New York City, and someone was like, our a client had asked, told them they had. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.480 To use it, and we were like, okay, here we go. 00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:16.799 Like, we're it's like we're taking off, and the difference between January 2024 and today, and how much research and learning we have done as a firm is really it's pretty amazing, right? 00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:29.039 But I think I think back then too, the the interesting part about that, I remember the client request was something like with the advent of chat

GPT, why do we need you, lawyer? 00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:29.599 Right. 00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:37.119 And and I think I think what we've learned over the past couple of years that that's not gonna be the case. 00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:42.319 I don't think anybody, I don't think anybody thinks like that anymore. 00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:42.640 Right. 00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:48.720 And and when that craze was happening when chat GPT came out, that was the fear, right? 00:22:49.039 --> 00:22:55.680 Hey, we're just next month, you know, we're gonna be gone because ChatGPT can be the lawyer for everybody. 00:22:55.839 --> 00:23:05.359 We know that's not the case because it requires so much more to provide the level of advice that we're providing to our to our clients. 00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:10.960 So knowing their industry, knowing their business, knowing them and their risk tolerance. 00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:18.960 And and using our judgment and experience, which has been developed over a significant amount of time. 00:23:19.279 --> 00:23:19.599 Yeah. 00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:23.680 And our interpersonal skills, right? 00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:25.200 Communicate with people. 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:32.400 Because we don't, you know, chat chat GPT is not gonna negotiate a deal with Claude, right? 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:37.039 And it's gonna be a lawyer and lawyer negotiating the deal. 00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:39.440 So then do that stuff. 00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:56.640 And so it's, you know, I think clients and lawyers have come to the realization that this is not gonna replace us, it's just gonna cause us to, you know, use our kind of strategic minds, maybe more than than we're required to do when we had to do the, you know, kind of grump work, right? 00:23:56.880 --> 00:23:58.400 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:09.440 Well, that could that's a good way to transition to, you know, we talked a little bit about younger lawyers and law students starting out, but what are some of the positive things you think it means for their careers? 00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:13.839 Yeah, you know, they're so well positioned for this, right? 00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:20.480 Because they don't have to be trained to adapt to new technologies. 00:24:20.640 --> 00:24:24.240 They've all been doing it, you know, from birth, right? 00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:30.079 And so this might, I mean, to a certain extent, it it might be kind of commonplace for them. 00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:40.079 But I I almost think about it more from the experienced supervising lawyer who's training them. 00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:40.640 Yeah. 00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:50.079 We're we're gonna have to think about how we do that differently because some of this technology is so powerful. 00:24:50.240 --> 00:25:08.000 Like really, I think we're gonna have to get into much more into, you know, the kind of thought process and strategic considerations and really in-depth mentoring on our clients, business, and industry, right? 00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:15.200 Those are gonna be the critical skills that associates need to bring to the table. 00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:26.079 And and they're gonna be able to do that now years in advance for when they were otherwise asked to do that, you know, five, ten years ago, right? 00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:27.039 That's so true. 00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:28.480 When it was mechanical. 00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:29.759 I mean, in a sense, right? 00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:37.039 You were going through documents and you're doing initial drafts of briefs and you're putting together parts of motions, right? 00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:40.960 That's still all gonna happen, but but it's just gonna be done much more efficiently. 00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:46.880 So it'll allow allow those associates to do higher level legal work earlier on in their careers. 00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:56.079 But we have to, as more experienced lawyers, recognize that and train people in that manner. 00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:02.880 And we like, you know, lawyers don't often think about, well, you know, I think we have tried to, but emotional, right? 00:26:03.039 --> 00:26:06.799 The EQ, the emotional intelligence, the how to communicate. 00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:09.119 We're gonna have to talk to them about those parts. 00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:16.400 And while you and I were riding the wave of what is electronic discovery, like, what do you mean this person has 2,000 emails? 00:26:16.480 --> 00:26:29.519 You know, like that that is just ballooned so much that it was causing people to be embedded in that kind of data, you know, and now they can move past that to get to the more interesting stuff. 00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:30.720 Yeah, absolutely. 00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:38.480 So I, you know, when I talk to associates about this, I you know, I think it's exciting. 00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:49.039 I would love to be, you know, starting my career at a time when things are changing and evolving because you're right into it, right? 00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:54.000 You don't have to sh you don't have to shift gears after practicing law for 30 years. 00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:57.519 So I think it's a great, great opportunity for that. 00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:06.400 A lot of this that we've been talking about today, you know, adopting the technology and how it's not just the tools, it's about people's use and adoption. 00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:08.799 This is all change management, really. 00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:17.279 So two and a half years into your first term as chair of the management committee, what have you learned about how to approach that? 00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:28.000 I you know, I think the communication piece is the most significant component to change management. 00:27:28.160 --> 00:27:36.559 And and and part of it is you know getting that, you know, taking the steps to get the buy-in, right? 00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:42.240 And sometimes that can take a little bit longer than we might like, right?

00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:45.039 Because we have to talk, talk to people about it, right? 00:27:45.119 --> 00:28:03.839 Before we make final decisions, you gotta reach out and talk to the stakeholders about what we're thinking about, talk to them about why we're doing it, talk to them about how it's going to improve whatever aspect of our business that, you know, we're changing. 00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:12.240 And then, and then you have that kind of groundswell under underneath you when you when you start to make and implement those changes. 00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:13.839 So that's really, really important. 00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:22.799 I actually early on in um in my tenure in in this role, we rolled something out and I didn't spend enough time talking to people about it. 00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:24.720 And it and it wasn't successful. 00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:31.359 We had to go back and revisit it and have more conversations about it. 00:28:31.519 --> 00:28:40.000 And and I really learned from that that that initial groundwork is incredibly important when you're trying to make change. 00:28:40.160 --> 00:29:03.440 But then I also think, you know, just having that leadership mindset is not just me, but it's members of our management committee, it's our administrative leadership, it's practice group leaders, having that mindset that the continual evolution of our business is important and exciting, right? 00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:04.160 Exactly. 00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:09.839 If we're in that, if we're in that mode, then that translates to everyone else. 00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:20.960 And so when we're talking about change, people get excited about it rather than you know, kind of getting a little ache in their stomach about what we're what we're about to do. 00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:30.079 It it turn it turns into, hey, this is a really cool opportunity for us, rather than, oh, there's a drag that we have to change the way we're doing our business. 00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:39.680 So I think part of that is just really focusing on, you know, how we're, you know, how the leaders of the firm are responding to this change. 00:29:39.759 --> 00:29:44.880 And that, you know, that naturally kind of filters out everybody else. 00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:47.759 I think that's a huge, a huge thing. 00:29:47.839 --> 00:29:58.160 And then the other the other piece, and I have a hard time with this, and you keep me in check, is overwhelming people with repeated changes. 00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:04.160 And I actually I I checked myself today. 00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:13.119 I was I was going to send an email to one of our administrative people asking, you know, what are we doing with respect to X? 00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:14.799 And I thought, ah, you know what? 00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:16.000 I'm not gonna do that to them. 00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:18.319 They have too much on their plate already. 00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:18.880 Okay. 00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:20.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:24.720 It's hard though, right? 00:30:24.799 --> 00:30:28.640 When you're excited, you want the change, and like there's this excitement. 00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:36.880 And sometimes I do think we kind of have to check each other, like we have to say, like, okay, but like let's make sure everybody's everybody's with us at this speed. 00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:38.559 We're as close as we can get. 00:30:38.799 --> 00:30:39.039 Right. 00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:41.599 And you're really good, you're really good about that. 00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:44.000 And and I appreciate that. 00:30:44.240 --> 00:30:50.000 And but but it is it it's also, you know, it's good to have ideas. 00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:50.559 Yes. 00:30:50.720 --> 00:30:57.519 And it's good to kind of record those in some way so you don't forget about it, right? 00:30:58.160 --> 00:31:04.400 And it's good to give those some thought, but you can't implement them all at the same time, right? 00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:20.160 Because it just overwhelms people, it overwhelms our systems, and so, you know, I think measured change, but at a pace that supports the changes in our industry, that makes that makes more sense. 00:31:20.319 --> 00:31:30.640 And sometimes I think it's it's difficult to do, but I think we've been pretty successful in and achieving that kind of measured growth and change. 00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:33.440 And sometimes it's something that has to change fast. 00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:38.079 And then if people have that trust in you, they're they understand that this is one that's got to go fast. 00:31:38.240 --> 00:31:47.359 Yep, that's because you've developed that, you know, they they there's communication, there's transparency, you have that track record, and they're like, okay, I guess this one's gotta happen right now. 00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:49.200 And you just take care of it. 00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:53.359 And you have to give people time to start something and complete it. 00:31:53.599 --> 00:31:54.720 Yes, that's good too. 00:31:54.799 --> 00:31:55.519 I do like that. 00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:56.160 Yeah. 00:31:58.720 --> 00:32:01.440 Before before throwing something new at them. 00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:03.519 But it's, you know, it's it's great. 00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:25.279 And it it's uh again, I mean, I think for for us, for me, it's really it's a really exciting time because there are so many opportunities to to change in a positive way based upon everything that's happening in our in our industry and with our clients and in our communities that gives us that kind of motor and drive to to do it, right? 00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:25.920 Absolutely. 00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:33.440 I mean, uh so many of the we're in a lot of communities, but so many of them have really cool things in the industries and sectors we're in. 00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:37.279 Some of them are facing big challenges and are turning them into opportunities. 00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:40.480 So it

does, it just sort of motivates you to keep going. 00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:40.960 Yeah. 00:32:41.119 --> 00:32:56.000 And and some of the things that, you know, that we're doing in internally benefit our not just our clients, but our communities, because we're, you know, we're so involved throughout, you know, all the communities that we serve. 00:32:56.160 --> 00:33:00.880 We're we are integral and involved in the work that the communities are doing. 00:33:01.039 --> 00:33:16.640 So the experience that we have here and the changes that we're making here, and the developments in our industry and our knowledge of the changes in our clients' industries, that allows us to contribute in a more meaningful way, you know, to the growth and development of our community. 00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:20.000 So it's all it all fits, you know, it all fits together, right? 00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:30.000 If you think about it and in a way where, you know, we do we want to be really good community partners, you know, you just bring all that to the table too. 00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:33.440 So that's I think that's been really cool as well. 00:33:33.920 --> 00:33:34.559 I do too. 00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:35.119 I agree. 00:33:35.359 --> 00:33:35.599 All right. 00:33:35.680 --> 00:33:45.119 So I guess final question, since we're talking about all of this as attorneys are sort of navigating this change, whether it's AI or other things in our industry. 00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:47.759 Um, do you have any sort of final advice? 00:33:48.720 --> 00:33:55.119 Yeah, I think that, you know, staying curious and having that intellectual curiosity is key. 00:33:55.359 --> 00:33:59.680 And be, you know, being open to the change, right? 00:33:59.839 --> 00:34:02.880 Things and it's and it's all, you know, it's always happened. 00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:06.319 It's happened over the course of of our careers. 00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:07.920 It's gonna continue to happen. 00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:13.360 So the AI as it exists now, it's gonna be different in two years, it's gonna be different in five years. 00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:16.800 So just accept it and you know, run with it. 00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:23.679 And I think the people who do will be really, really successful and happy and in their work. 00:34:24.079 --> 00:34:29.360 And then on the client service part, that like that is what we're here for. 00:34:29.599 --> 00:34:40.000 If we can focus on that, focus on delivering great services to our clients, being there for them, being responsive to them. 00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:41.679 That is key. 00:34:41.920 --> 00:34:50.079 And and and you know, and also you know, kind of accepting the fact that their businesses are changing and adapting. 00:34:50.239 --> 00:34:50.719 Yeah. 00:34:50.960 --> 00:34:54.960 And, you know, being receptive to that as well, right? 00:34:55.039 --> 00:35:00.000 The old way of doing things might not be the way it works now for them, right? 00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:00.239 Right. 00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:03.199 So we have to think about it in that way as well. 00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:13.760 So yeah, I mean, really the key is kind of staying staying curious, being responsive, and doing great legal work, right? 00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:14.239 Yeah. 00:35:14.719 --> 00:35:15.679 Yeah, absolutely. 00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:18.639 It's not you say this often, you're like, guys, it's not as complicated. 00:35:18.719 --> 00:35:19.760 This is what we have to do. 00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:21.280 No, just be great. 00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:22.159 That's the that's it. 00:35:22.239 --> 00:35:22.800 Just be great. 00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:28.239 Some of our some of our lawyers are rocket scientists, but this is not rocket science. 00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:31.280 We do have rocket scientists. 00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:32.960 We do have rocket scientists, yeah. 00:35:33.199 --> 00:35:37.119 We do, we do, and geneticists and all kinds of mathematicians, everything. 00:35:39.280 --> 00:35:39.599 All right. 00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:40.639 Well, thanks, Brian. 00:35:40.719 --> 00:35:45.840 I think sort of ending with that point of being curious and responsive so that you can do great legal work. 00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:48.079 That's really the right note to end on today. 00:35:48.239 --> 00:35:49.440 Thanks for joining us. 00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:50.079 Thank you. 00:35:50.320 --> 00:35:51.679 Thanks for sharing your perspective. 00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:52.400 I appreciate it. 00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:53.760 Good conversation. 00:35:54.079 --> 00:35:57.280 And just of course, you know you're getting invited back soon. 00:35:57.440 --> 00:36:00.320 So we'll producer Kate and I'll see you again soon. 00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:01.920 Thanks. 00:36:02.239 --> 00:36:03.039 All right, thanks, Brian. 00:36:03.519 --> 00:36:04.480 All right, thanks a little. 00:36:08.639 --> 00:36:11.119 Thank you for tuning into this episode of Legally Bond. 00:36:11.199 --> 00:36:20.000 If you're listening and have any questions for me, want to hear from someone at the firm, or have a suggestion for a future topic, please email us at legally bond at bsk.com. 00:36:20.159 --> 00:36:24.639 Also, don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to Legally Bond wherever podcasts are downloaded. 00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:26.639 Until our next talk, be well. 00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:36.639 Bond Shenick and King has prepared this communication to present only general information. 00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:41.039 This is not intended as legal advice, nor should you consider it as such. 00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:45.199 You should not act or decline to act based upon the contents. 00:36:45.519 --> 00:36:50.960 While we try to make sure that the information is complete and accurate, laws can change quickly. 00:36:51.199 --> 00:36:57.440 You should always formally engage a lawyer of your choosing before taking actions which have legal consequences. 00:36:57.679 --> 00:37:06.719 For information about our communication, firm, practice areas, and attorneys, visit our website, bsk.com. 00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:09.280 This is attorney advertising.