23 - TruPath: From Code Officer to City Manager ၏ စာသားမှတ်တမ်းအပြည့်အစုံ

experience, the relationships that you've built basically with the community and throughout the courthouse and the court services and the justice system, he said, would be a huge asset to our team. 00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:40.879 And a couple months later, I got hired here with the city of Palmdale, and I've been here ever since. 00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:41.920 That's incredible. 00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:47.279 I mean, what a what an amazing kind of example of how one door closes, another door opens. 00:04:47.360 --> 00:04:57.279 Here you think you bombed the interview for Lancaster, but Palmdales happened to be in there and saw something in you that you thought was bad and they thought was good. 00:04:57.439 --> 00:04:58.160 That's amazing. 00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:02.879 Now, when when let's go kind of back a step here, what was it about code enforcement? 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:11.279 Even though you didn't know about it or what it was, what was it about that intrigued you enough to want to leave your current job to explore this industry? 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:15.439 Early on path, I was convinced I was going to be a deputy sheriff. 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:18.160 That was the job I wanted since I was a little guy. 00:05:18.399 --> 00:05:22.639 That was some of the schooling I did and early education. 00:05:22.959 --> 00:05:30.800 And when I was working for the sheriff's department in a different capacity, um, I had young kids at the time. 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:38.800 And the idea of being out in the field as a deputy sheriff didn't seem like a good fit for a young mom with young kids at the time. 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:52.720 So this looked like another opportunity that was interesting, intriguing, exciting that would still give me a different opportunity to work with the community and a different capacity. 00:05:52.959 --> 00:06:01.360 It just had a lot of benefits to me at the time that seemed to work well for me, my family, interesting, and just wanted to jump all in and see what it was all about. 00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:03.439 Would you still uh recommend? 00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:09.199 I mean, is code of force is still a good fit for particularly working moms in your situation at that point? 00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:10.879 Oh, I would say absolutely. 00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:12.720 We're lucky here at the City of Pomday. 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:14.399 We have a 410 schedule. 00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:16.480 So you have, you know, your three days off. 00:06:16.639 --> 00:06:20.720 It's a it's a great work life balance opportunity. 00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:23.279 We've got in our team now lots of young parents. 00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:26.240 I believe we have a pregnant officer right now. 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:36.639 Um, and I believe they'll be able to support their families, um, have a career that they're proud of, and also be able to spend the time with their family as they grow. 00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:37.120 Yeah. 00:06:37.199 --> 00:06:41.920 So a little,

maybe a little more work-life balance than uh traditional policing would. 00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:42.800 Absolutely. 00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:43.439 Got it. 00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:43.759 Yeah. 00:06:43.839 --> 00:06:44.160 Wow. 00:06:44.240 --> 00:06:44.879 That's interesting. 00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:45.360 Okay. 00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:52.399 And on that 410 note, so you work four days a week, 10 hours a day, but in code enforcement, it's a 410, I assume. 00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:53.199 Is that right? 00:06:53.439 --> 00:06:54.480 It is a 410. 00:06:54.639 --> 00:07:04.560 And now that you're sitting here in what I like to call the C suite, the executive suite, uh, is it a 410 or are you really just on seven, 128 or however many hours are in a week? 00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:05.920 There's no sleep in this job. 00:07:06.079 --> 00:07:11.439 But I'll tell you the last few years in working directly just with public safety, I would say is the same. 00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:14.720 Yes, code enforcement's a nice 410 schedule. 00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:16.959 Um, but public safety never sleeps. 00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:22.399 Um, we don't, the cities open Monday through Thursday, but code enforcement works seven days a week. 00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:31.839 And those 10-hour shifts can fluctuate to where the need is, you know, for addressing food vendors or special events and other things with different times. 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:36.240 So they it's still a great, it's a great schedule. 00:07:36.399 --> 00:07:45.759 It's a great job, but compared to the rest of the city who works Monday through Thursday, some might see that as a little bit not as cush as others. 00:07:46.079 --> 00:07:46.720 Yeah, sure. 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:47.839 No, I totally get that. 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:51.759 I mean, public safety doesn't stop because the problems don't stop. 00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:57.279 So it works in on the same schedule, the same calendar, same clock as uh the problems do, right? 00:07:57.519 --> 00:08:02.319 So, in when you were in code enforcement, um, you started out as what? 00:08:02.399 --> 00:08:04.560 What's the title in that kind of starting job? 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:08.000 My starting job was a code enforcement officer one. 00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:08.720 Okay. 00:08:08.879 --> 00:08:10.879 And what kind of duties did you have doing that? 00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:12.879 Oh, I was assigned right out the gate. 00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:13.839 It was so much fun. 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:19.199 Really, really a fun way to just jump in and take it all in. 00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:21.839 I was assigned 400 cases by the time I got there. 00:08:21.920 --> 00:08:25.279 Those were already assigned to me before I logged onto my computer for that. 00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:26.560 Before you showed up, yeah. 00:08:27.759 --> 00:08:30.800 So, and it was a, you know, it's a little different now. 00:08:30.879 --> 00:08:32.639 We do things different, we train things differently. 00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:34.799 You know, this was 19 years ago. 00:08:34.960 --> 00:08:40.159 Um, so you were assigned your cases and you learned by working through each case. 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:53.759 You learned by looking at what the complaint is, going out and conducting the inspection, coming back and opening the municipal code and finding what applies, what doesn't apply, what options do we have, and addressing it then with the homeowner. 00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:56.159 What kind of issues were you dealing with at that time? 00:08:56.240 --> 00:08:59.200 Because codes changed a lot in 20 years, but some of the issues have. 00:08:59.360 --> 00:09:01.840 And what kind of you remember some of the kind of issues you had to deal with? 00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:03.200 I had so much fun in that job. 00:09:03.279 --> 00:09:08.639 I learned so many, so many skills were learned there that have helped here. 00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:17.519 Um, but I mean, it was green pools, it was landscape, it was no trash service, it was businesses operating without a business license. 00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:20.559 At that time, actually, foreclosures were huge. 00:09:20.639 --> 00:09:32.559 And we had a lot of bank-owned abandoned properties that were, you know, we'd work with contractors to board them and secure them because, you know, people were coming in and out and vandalizing them. 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:40.879 But I would say probably about 30% of my cases at that time was dealing with the vacant um and abandoned structures. 00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:43.440 So we had a little bit of mix of everything. 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:50.480 The only thing I would say we didn't do then that we're struggling with now would be the sidewalk vending. 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:52.000 That wasn't an issue back then. 00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:53.919 Yeah, that's an issue all over our state. 00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:59.039 And California is uniquely ill-suited to deal with that particular issue. 00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:06.159 Um, but you know, going back to kind of like the Great Recession you're talking about, dealing with the foreclosed homes and some bank in Delaware. 00:10:06.320 --> 00:10:09.519 They don't give a damn what's happening in Palmdale at that time and their property. 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:14.480 And so I remember going into one of these, and you know, they would get trashed, obviously. 00:10:14.639 --> 00:10:16.480 People on the way out, they would trash them. 00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:24.480 And then, of course, vagrants would come in, squatters would come in, and you'd see everything get like stolen, all the copper gets all, you know, jacked out of the walls. 00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:30.159 And I remember in one place they stole the toilet, which I thought was like, why would you want to take that with you? 00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:34.240 And then another one I saw they stole a fireplace, like a built-in fireplace. 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:36.399 And I thought, how do you even?

00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:41.200 That's like salting the the earth after like an army leaves a horse. 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:43.279 Oh, I mean, stealing a fireplace. 00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:44.960 I'm sure you saw all sorts of crazy stuff. 00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:45.759 Oh, we did. 00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:48.639 We saw a lot of good stuff, and it was it was different. 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:55.200 You know, I don't know, to be honest with you, if it was the Palmdale way that was not proper, but you know, laws and whatnot have changed. 00:10:55.360 --> 00:10:56.639 Code enforcement. 00:10:56.879 --> 00:11:00.000 We would go in and clear these houses ourselves at the time. 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:04.480 We didn't bring a deputy, we didn't bring and we didn't have an inspection warrant. 00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:13.200 They clear them of people, you would go in, code would go in where there are squatters, unarmed code enforcement, and you would boot these people out. 00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:24.000 Yes, I remember they they trained me to say, you know, this is officer Yellowcare for the city of Palmdell, come out wherever you are to the, you know, come to the sound of my voice. 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:31.039 And they would have us clear the rooms and the closets and the garage and the attics, and you're just a couple code enforcement officers. 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:32.000 Yeah, wait a minute. 00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:35.600 You're again, you're unarmed going into this. 00:11:35.919 --> 00:11:37.759 I hate to laugh, it's just so crazy. 00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:46.399 You're unarmed going to it, and not only are you unarmed going into this place that necessarily you know has squatters in it, but then you're saying, Come to my voice. 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:47.120 Yeah, come to me. 00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:48.159 Come to me. 00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:52.080 Trouble, walk to me, danger. 00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:59.759 I mean, that's kind of the essence in a way of this industry is that people are sticking their neck out to do the right thing. 00:11:59.919 --> 00:12:05.200 I mean, I have no doubt, especially with little kids, the thought crossed your mind, uh, this is a little dangerous. 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:10.320 And having been in the sheriff's apartment before, you had an acute awareness of safety issues. 00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:14.320 But like, now you don't have a gun, but total forcement, they stick their neck out. 00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:16.559 I mean, is that that's kind of really what they do, right? 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:17.600 Yeah, we did. 00:12:17.679 --> 00:12:18.559 We went in every time. 00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:20.639 We just had, you know, we had our game plan. 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:23.440 You brought your partner and you felt okay. 00:12:23.600 --> 00:12:27.600 And I looked now, I look back now and like, what the heck were we doing? 00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:35.759 And I think about that sometimes too, just even on my side in this stuff and uh, you know, with inspection warrants, the search warrants 20 years ago. 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:36.960 It's a whole different world. 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:42.720 I mean, you probably didn't go through modules and training and certification back then like we have now for code officers. 00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:43.200 Exactly. 00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:44.159 So we've come a long way. 00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:50.080 That's I think that's a great thing for the profession and for cities, and certainly for liability and for the communities. 00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:57.279 And I do want to take this opportunity to plug everybody back to one of our former episodes on officer safety. 00:12:57.360 --> 00:13:08.960 So good chance to listen how far we've come uh listening to officer safety because the people we deal with don't change, uh at least for the better sometimes, but uh our reaction to it does. 00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:10.639 So that's that's a good highlight. 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:14.000 So you start off as this kind of a code enforcement officer one. 00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:15.039 Where do you go from there? 00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:20.320 From there, my next role was a senior code enforcement officer. 00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:23.120 Um, from there, I went to manager. 00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:30.960 And at the time, that department never had a director, like a director of public safety, like we have throughout the city. 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:34.480 You know, director of parks and rec, director of public works. 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:39.759 So I kind of just quasi-filled that role as the manager. 00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:44.480 Um, but for me, it was just all exciting. 00:13:44.559 --> 00:13:50.320 And I think the energy and the eagerness to learn, I didn't want to just know code enforcement. 00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:53.519 You know, I can I can read that, I can understand the ordinances. 00:13:53.679 --> 00:13:57.440 I wanted to let's make some amendments to some of these ordinances. 00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:04.000 Why, you know, is what's our flexibility here and learning that process and how that goes through council? 00:14:04.159 --> 00:14:06.399 Um, the budget was super exciting to me. 00:14:06.559 --> 00:14:07.440 Who funds this? 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:08.879 How do we pay for these things? 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:11.120 What are, what's our parameters here? 00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:25.519 And if we were to adjust some of these levels, what is the opportunities that we could bring to the team, which is training, which is, you know, getting which, you know, our own code enforcement attorneys that we've worked, you know, with you for 11 years. 00:14:25.679 --> 00:14:26.879 We love every minute of it. 00:14:27.039 --> 00:14:38.720 And that helped shape and change the way that we do practices today, which has a better result for our community, better result for our neighbors, um, our businesses and whatnot. 00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:41.200 So it was not just for me. 00:14:41.440 -->

00:14:44.159 I could come in and do code enforcement all day, every day. 00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:58.559 I could work my cases, I could send my notices, file my whatever with the recorder's office, but I wanted to know more and how and why and how to bring our team to a strong team with lots of tools and lots of options. 00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:03.919 And I would attribute that a lot back to my time at the courthouse. 00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:09.600 Um, you know, being there for 10 years, the Lancaster Superior Court, it's a one-stop shop. 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:14.639 You've got your courtrooms, your probation, your district attorney's office, your family law. 00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:16.159 Criminal, civil. 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:17.120 It's kind of all there. 00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:18.000 It's all there. 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:34.720 And so there, you know, I just kind of love the justice system and love getting to know all of those things and those relationships and seeing how those play such a strong partnership or role in what code enforcement does and the tools and the ability to do more. 00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:40.399 It's so much more than just writing a notice of violation, mailing it off, and clicking on to the next. 00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:48.240 You know, you have the ability, which was always so exciting to me, to change the quality of life for a neighborhood, to change the quality of life for a street. 00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:51.279 You drive down some streets, they look like absolute crap. 00:15:51.519 --> 00:15:57.440 That was, you know, if you had a case assigned to you or not, you look at it and go, holy crap, they don't need to live like this. 00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:03.039 I, we are the only team in the entire city that has the ability to make an impact here. 00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:05.679 You know, Sheriff's Department's gonna deal with crime. 00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:32.960 Um, we are the only team that has the ability to come in and change the dynamics of that neighborhood, which in the bigger picture changes kids going outside and playing and playing ball and playing in their street yard, in their streets or front yards and not being surrounded with a bunch of you know, junk cars, broken windows, cars on jacks, things like that that make you just want to stay indoors. 00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:36.080 I think it has the ability to completely change your quality of life. 00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:38.799 And it's very exciting to be a part of that. 00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:39.600 Wow. 00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:40.799 Yeah, well said. 00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:41.440 That's great. 00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:48.720 I also want to flag that you said that the budget was exciting and interesting because that uh that's a phrase that's never crossed my mind. 00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:52.240 But that is uh, but that's a good, I think that's a good point. 00:16:52.320 --> 00:17:01.120 I you hit, you know, I'm kind of trying to keep like a mental checklist of things that are code officers who are listening to this thinking, I'd like to become a city manager one day. 00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:07.440 And what I heard there, Sarah, was curiosity to know the why behind the what. 00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:12.480 You're out there as a code officer every day, you've got 400, 500 cases on your desk in particular. 00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:21.279 May feel overwhelming, but it, you know, getting out of that tunnel vision where you're just focused on, well, I've got to issue a site or I've got to issue a notice, but why are we doing it this way? 00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:24.880 And maybe number two is how can we do it better? 00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:31.200 You talked about um, how do we amend our own laws to give us more tools and the toolbox to do a better job for our communities? 00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:33.519 And thinking about, yeah, how can we improve? 00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:35.279 Because it's always improvable. 00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:40.160 There is no perfect city and no perfect program, and it might even be today, but not tomorrow. 00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:43.119 And then uh I heard there too, like leadership. 00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:54.799 You were just stepping into a role that it seemed like you could tell the director role that the city needed as probably liaison with all these different public service divisions in the city, but didn't have, and you just did it. 00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:57.839 So kind of the do it, do what it takes attitude. 00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:01.519 And then finally, I guess what I picked up was drawing on your past experience. 00:18:01.599 --> 00:18:06.559 You know, no matter what you've come from in your life, it may not even be another job. 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:13.359 You may be listening to this coming out of a college or something like that, but you have life experiences that will help you going forward. 00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:22.400 Oh, yeah, one more is I heard you talk about relationships, partnerships, understanding how different parts of government work. 00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:23.759 I mean, is that accurate? 00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:38.960 Are those do you feel like now that you've kind of gotten to a goal that a lot of code enforcement officers may aspire to, do you feel like those are the qualities that people really should kind of be looking to to improve in themselves or focus on to rise up to the ranks? 00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:50.960 I I would not I would not have this opportunity of the current job I have right now if it was not for relationship building, if it was not for the partnerships. 00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:54.559 This um, you can't do this by yourself. 00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:56.079 You work well with it. 00:18:56.240 --> 00:19:03.599 Took a lot of, you know, working in roles that were not exactly mine, you know, going and talking to finance about budget. 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:06.640 I remember sitting down the first day and go, help me understand this budget. 00:19:06.720 -->

00:19:09.680 What's a line item, you know, and how are these line items broken up? 00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:12.160 And they looked at me like, what are you doing? 00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:13.920 You know, you're a code enforcement officer. 00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:15.839 Let us work through our finance. 00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:22.000 But it also brought them to um, you know, not a lot of people get excited about finance. 00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:27.119 So they were excited to hear someone want to learn more about the work that they do. 00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:49.599 Um, and if it wasn't for building those relationships with them, with the courthouse staff, with with our probation, with our animal care and control, with our sheriff's department, with CHP, all of those relationships have helped um me to be resourceful and getting or being able to make other things happen. 00:19:49.680 --> 00:20:00.079 You know, you also have to be careful, you know, you don't want to step over your boss's toes, you know, being the know it all or push your boundaries to where you're working outside of your lane. 00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:03.440 There's a balance of respect that needs to be there as well. 00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:07.839 But it seemed to have worked well to people kind of gravitate to that. 00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:12.960 You become the person that they, you know, are looking for the help or looking for the advice. 00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:19.759 So without the partnerships, and that comes with not just other agencies, it came with residents. 00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:21.839 It came with how you approach them. 00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:31.359 You know, if you just come and slap a notice on their door, you will fix this, you will fix this in 15, 30 days, whatever it is, and they never see you again for 30 days. 00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:40.319 Um, you know, when they give you that call and say, look, I have to decide to fix your notice or keep my lights on or feed my family. 00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:42.240 You know, you can't be a robot. 00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:46.559 You've got to communicate with them and say, okay, we let's work through this. 00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:53.759 You know, my one of my favorite things to do with elderly or those struggling financially, you don't have to redo your landscape overnight. 00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:55.359 Let's do two feet at a time. 00:20:55.519 --> 00:21:00.640 Let's do it two foot square once a month until we get your property into compliance. 00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:04.160 And taking the time, finding a resolve that worked for them. 00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:09.759 Um it just built overall community relationships too. 00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:26.559 And I will tell you, kind of like my first interview with the city of Lancaster, when I interviewed for the position of a manager, that one of the residents that I had a code enforcement case on his house sat on my interview panel. 00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:28.720 And it was really bizarre. 00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:31.279 I'm like, how in the world did this happen? 00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:33.039 It was a big neighbor dispute. 00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:38.640 They were arguing about their lights and their block walls, and you're parking in front of my house. 00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:39.839 That's my street. 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:44.559 And, you know, just did lots of trying to work through it with them. 00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:51.359 Um, and I had no idea he'd be sitting there on my panel, you know, five years later. 00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:58.720 And one of the things he made sure to let me know after the decision was made, he said, I was so happy to see you in that seat. 00:21:58.799 --> 00:22:09.599 He said, I was so happy to see To see someone come from a government agency that I had experience with, with you know, no idea that this would come to happen in the future. 00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:14.160 Um, he just said, you know, it couldn't go have gone to a better person. 00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:20.720 And not trying to say I'm amazing by any means, but he appreciated the experience that we had together. 00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:24.799 And you never know when those things are gonna just circle back and play a big role. 00:22:25.119 --> 00:22:27.119 Well, number one, you are amazing at what you do. 00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:38.640 And I think that those stories kind of highlight that, you know, for our folks here, you know, who may be new to the profession, those relationships internally across departments, cities are big. 00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:42.240 They're big, big government, big business, you know, big entity. 00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:42.720 There we go. 00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:43.920 That's the word I'm looking for. 00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:45.359 They're a big entity. 00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:48.880 And you dealt with kind of your niche in code enforcement, right? 00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:51.119 And in your jurisdiction, it dealt with a bunch of stuff. 00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:57.599 But there were these other parts of your other parts of your city community that you needed to get to know. 00:22:57.680 --> 00:22:59.440 And you kind of did that out of curiosity. 00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:08.799 And of course, as you rise through the ranks and you're an assistant city manager, you're now overseeing departments like public works that code enforcement touched on, but wasn't really in their wheelhouse. 00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:13.440 And so those internal relationships matter a lot, especially when you're gonna be leading other people. 00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:14.720 That's what I'm hearing here. 00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:18.559 And then uh also, you know, kind of knowing why they do their job and how they do it. 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:21.359 And then also out in the community, I that's crazy that story. 00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:24.079 What a coincidence that that person you dealt with. 00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:33.279 But I'll tell you, I had a case once where very similar to that

kind of just crazy story where I was litigating just a really hard-fought land use case. 00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:39.759 And opposing counsel on this on the other side of me was from this massive law firm, and he probably made 10 times more than I did. 00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:43.519 And, you know, we were duking it out, but we were always on the side. 00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:45.440 You know, his wife was dealing with cancer. 00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:46.400 You know, how's she doing? 00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:46.880 Checking it. 00:23:46.960 --> 00:23:48.000 First and foremost, how are you? 00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:49.119 How are your family? 00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:52.000 Well, we ended up winning this case, thank goodness. 00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:54.319 But it was a heck of a fight over a number of years. 00:23:54.559 --> 00:23:58.720 One day I go to one of my other cities, city council, and guess who's the mayor? 00:23:59.039 --> 00:23:59.920 That guy. 00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:02.400 And my contract was up for renewal. 00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:06.640 And I thought, uh, does he remember me asking about his wife? 00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:08.160 I mean, do you remember that? 00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:15.599 And and you know, when my contract came up, um, it's not totally uncommon for members of the public to come up and want to comment on that. 00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:17.519 And it's usually not positive. 00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:20.720 And um, so they'll, you know, criticize it. 00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:25.759 And the actually wasn't even a member of the public, it was another council member who, for whatever reason, didn't like me. 00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:29.359 And this guy piped up and he said, you know what? 00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:36.640 I uh I dealt with Matt for years, and just kind of like your person you dealt with, and ended up being my biggest supporter. 00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:38.400 And I couldn't believe it. 00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:47.039 I was just so florid and thankful that um I had just been a nice person, I guess, during tough circumstances. 00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:53.599 So the moral of the story is you never know, you never know when someone you deal with is gonna come back in your life in a way you don't expect. 00:24:53.680 --> 00:24:56.559 So we should always be doing the right thing for right things' sake. 00:24:56.720 --> 00:25:00.480 That's probably gonna be my last long-winded ivory tower comment there. 00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:02.559 Um, but I want to get back to you. 00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:10.720 So you go from a director over to, and you're actually in a different building to City Hall proper where city management is. 00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:11.839 How did that happen? 00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:13.039 Because that's the big jump. 00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:13.920 How did that happen? 00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:16.559 That was the big jump for sure. 00:25:16.799 --> 00:25:22.880 Going back to wanting to be a deputy, then being super excited about overseeing the

sheriff's contract. 00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:25.519 Be, I I love everything about the justice system. 00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:27.119 I love everything, public safety. 00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:29.359 I love that is my true passion. 00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:36.400 And when the position first came up for deputy city manager, um, I was asked to apply. 00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:38.559 And I thought, are you out of your mind? 00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:42.319 You know, like all I can get you through anything you need public safety. 00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:43.359 We can find a way. 00:25:43.599 --> 00:25:51.599 But this might be a little outside of my scope or what I would be able to do successfully. 00:25:51.839 --> 00:26:05.599 And it just comes back to having those relationships, you know, um, having other departments and other teams and leadership and elected saying, hey, no promises, but we'd love to see you put your name in the hat for this. 00:26:05.839 --> 00:26:17.279 And just like, you know, trying to prepare for that job back at the city of Lancaster and printing the municipal code, I kind of did the same thing, you know, what what does this actually look like? 00:26:17.359 --> 00:26:19.359 And what are the expectations of me? 00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:23.920 And making sure there's a, you know, there's a lot of big decisions to be made. 00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:32.160 There's a lot of people who depend on you to make the right decision, balancing the relationships with, you know, when to be firm and when to be flexible. 00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:37.839 And um it it seemed very scary to me at the time. 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:44.400 But, you know, I went through the interview process, went through three interviews and was selected for the job. 00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:48.559 And about two and a half years later, was appointed ACM. 00:26:48.799 --> 00:26:54.880 So you came over as a deputy city manager, kind of the entry-level at the city manager side, right? 00:26:55.039 --> 00:26:58.960 Um, and then recently became the assistant city manager. 00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:00.160 What was it like? 00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:01.920 I guess we kind of know, right? 00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:03.519 What interested you in city management? 00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:05.839 You had a broader interest in the city government. 00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:06.559 Is that right? 00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:07.359 Absolutely. 00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:30.799 You know, learning from code and whatnot, learning municipal code ordinances and then being a part of now state legislative and going to Sacramento and meeting with the guys who are making the big decisions that are going to impact our city and being able to have a voice there and have a role in that is exciting, but they all stacked on top of each other to get there. 00:27:31.119 --> 00:27:43.039 Yeah, and I liked your comment about how in in city management you have to know when to be kind of um flexible and when to uh really have to be a little bit more stern. 00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:45.920 And I mean, that is just such the essence of code enforcement. 00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:51.759 It's that ebb and flow, like give and take of understanding what's working, what's not, when do I have to escalate things. 00:27:51.920 --> 00:28:02.400 So being in city management, I mean, what do you think it was about your city manager and your city council in selecting you that they thought would be valuable to be a city manager? 00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:17.440 You know, it was so when I was the deputy city manager, I oversaw, continued to oversee public safety, and they gave me communications as well, which was is an absolute underestimation of what really goes on behind that. 00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:32.960 I mean, that's your billboards, that's your flyers, that's your magazine, that's your talking points for your council members, that's the press, it's all of those things that one wrong little slip there could have a pretty big impact, you know, with the newspapers and the local media and things like that. 00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:36.559 And that was assigned to me along with public safety. 00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:45.519 And probably about six, seven months into it, they said, you know what, we're gonna temporarily assign you public works as well. 00:28:45.680 --> 00:29:04.000 Like we really think the ability to um be resourceful and just kind of get the job done without being a jerk along the way is what they what they appreciated, I guess, or said was my strong suit. 00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:05.599 So they gave me public works. 00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:06.880 I don't know the first thing about that. 00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:09.839 You know, that's a$300 million department. 00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:16.559 It runs off of um half of the city, half of our full-time staff is assigned to public works. 00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:31.440 It's everything from our potholes to our heavy tractors to our sewers to our CIP projects, and you know, these engineers who have very niche um experience and knowledge and projects that they're working on. 00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:34.559 And they said, This is your department now, take it and run with it. 00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:41.839 And I will say what has made it so I don't want to say easy, it's a lot of work. 00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:47.279 Um, but what has made it a smooth transition, again, it goes back to the relationships. 00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:50.240 It's the people that I've worked with here for the last several years. 00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:52.000 It's the respect that they had. 00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:54.400 They welcomed me to their department. 00:29:54.480 --> 00:30:00.079 You know, they're helping, they're acknowledging, we both acknowledged right from the beginning. 00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:02.240 I don't know the details of public works. 00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:06.400 I know how to help keep the landmines, uh, keep you away from them. 00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:15.920 I know the political things

that we need to help keep away from, or, you know, the things that maybe aren't their strong suits and just the working together. 00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:18.000 I said, but you're the subject matter experts. 00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:24.000 You know, you you help me with what we need to do here, and I will take care of these things for you. 00:30:24.079 --> 00:30:33.039 And it's just been very, very respectful relationship that's made the transition very smooth and it's actually working very well. 00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:41.680 Do you think the fact that they know that you came from the trenches too and worked your way up is something that gives you credibility with the people you're leading? 00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:42.240 Absolutely. 00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:43.119 Absolutely. 00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:44.000 And even with them. 00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:50.559 I, you know, I come in in boots and jeans and I've gone on rides, I've pumped sewers, I've trimmed trees, you know. 00:30:50.960 --> 00:30:57.039 It's being willing and able and appreciating all levels of what the local government has to do. 00:30:57.119 --> 00:30:59.440 It really goes a long way. 00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:01.039 Yeah, and both ways too. 00:31:01.119 --> 00:31:03.359 It's not just uh for them, it's for you, right? 00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:05.039 You can't lead something you don't understand. 00:31:05.119 --> 00:31:14.720 I remember when my dad was the city manager, he would drive around with a hard hat in his trunk because he just never knew when he was gonna have to get engaged in something. 00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:24.000 And yeah, on the weekends he would drive around town or you'd go with the police and see what was going on in the city and make sure that you're leading, you know, from the front and with knowledge. 00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:31.440 So what now that I mean you're here, how do you think code enforcement and your journey through code enforcement has benefited you as a city manager? 00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:40.720 We've got a little sneak peek of that, but if you could style it down into a couple of bullet points, how do you think it's helped you or set you up for success to be a city manager? 00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:49.440 Kind of problem solve and be it, be a human, you know, being kind, taking a situation as small as it is. 00:31:49.519 --> 00:32:03.200 You know, you could you think you're going to a house one day for landscape, you show up at the property, you've got squatters, I mean, you've got little kids that aren't being well cared for, you've got animals that aren't being cared for, it ends up being a much bigger situation. 00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:14.000 And having the ability to just work through those and not come in, drop a hammer, not demand things from people that they may or may not be able to do. 00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:16.240 Um, I mean, it's not all perfect, of course. 00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:17.839 It's all sunshine and rainbows. 00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:31.680 So what are some things do you think that coming from a code enforcement background have been a bit of a drawback for you or a challenge for you, or maybe didn't set you up well to be a city manager that you had to kind of like learn later on? 00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:35.359 You know, I'm having a hard time coming up with drawbacks. 00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:39.599 I really, I'm really thankful for every opportunity. 00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:42.960 I'm thankful for every code enforcement case, every single one. 00:32:43.119 --> 00:32:44.240 There's no two alike. 00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:47.839 You learn something from every single one working through that. 00:32:48.079 --> 00:32:49.920 I don't really have any drawbacks. 00:32:50.079 --> 00:32:51.440 I'm I'm thankful for it. 00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:58.079 I wouldn't be here without those skills and without those relationships and without that community partnering. 00:32:58.240 --> 00:33:01.839 Um, I don't know where my path would be without that. 00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:02.880 I'm thankful for it. 00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:04.000 I didn't see it coming. 00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:08.480 I didn't align myself early on thinking I'm gonna be a code enforcement officer. 00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:11.359 And I certainly never thought I'd be in the city manager's office. 00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:13.839 That was never a goal of mine. 00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:15.039 Um, it's pretty rare. 00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:23.759 In fact, I used to my knees would chaff, you know, shake when I had to come over and talk to the city manager about maybe something we did right or wrong with the code enforcement case. 00:33:24.079 --> 00:33:25.279 Imagine growing up with one. 00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:25.759 Yeah. 00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:33.839 And now just seeing it, it just inspires me to inspire others and to see the team. 00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:35.440 You know, it's a great group of guys. 00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:36.880 I love our public safety team. 00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:38.559 I love our code enforcement officers. 00:33:38.720 --> 00:33:45.200 And in every single one of them, it's just, I love for them to know and feel you can do whatever you want. 00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:51.200 You know, if this is if this is where you're happy and complacent and this works for, you know, young families or whatnot, great. 00:33:51.359 --> 00:33:53.359 Let's help you be the best at that you can be. 00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:57.119 Let's give you the tools you need to be very successful for that. 00:33:57.279 --> 00:34:03.039 If you've got other things you'd like to grow, maybe it's in another department, maybe it's within the department. 00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:04.720 Let us help you get there too. 00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:06.480 There's lots of opportunities. 00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:12.559 And I just think being here in this seat, that's what I'm most proud of and excited to be able to do. 00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:14.719 Um I think that's a great point. 00:34:14.800 -->

00:34:22.639 I don't, I don't feel like I don't feel like there's odd, there's often an obvious path for code enforcement to city manager. 00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:32.480 I I'm hearing more people these years in code say, yeah, I want to be a city manager one day, which is something I had not heard for a long time or pretty much ever until recently. 00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:40.079 But I feel like that path through the jungle is just starting to get created for them to city management. 00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:47.760 Why should city managers consider hiring code people in particular for deputy assistant jobs? 00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:54.000 And why should city councils be focusing on code enforcement as well as other departments? 00:34:54.159 --> 00:34:54.400 Why? 00:34:54.559 --> 00:34:57.519 Why should they be good assets to promote the city management? 00:34:57.760 --> 00:34:59.360 I will also say this with our city. 00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:05.760 I would say our city council, the one thing the five of them agree on is public safety and our public safety team. 00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:07.519 They are very supportive. 00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:10.400 In a sense, they're little heroes to the city. 00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:19.199 They can, if you've got a problem in any sense of the way, if it's, you know, at a local business, if it's signs out on the streets, if it's whatever it is, everyone goes to code enforcement. 00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:21.280 Code enforcement's gonna find a way to get that. 00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:22.960 The Swiss Army tool. 00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:23.679 It really is. 00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:30.639 And going back to what you're saying with, you know, when I'm at different city manager conferences and whatnot, and we all talk about where we came from. 00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:33.840 I am yet to meet another one who came from code enforcement. 00:35:34.079 --> 00:35:37.840 It's usually, you know, econdev or public works. 00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:44.239 And um, you know, sometimes that makes me like, uh-oh, did I, you know, did I fake it till I made it? 00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:45.519 You know, do I belong here? 00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:48.800 And then the other side, I'm like, heck yeah, we belong here. 00:35:48.880 --> 00:35:58.800 You know, there's a lot that this department, this team, and this job brings that adds a good layer to the city manager's office, a good benefit, a good value. 00:35:59.039 --> 00:35:59.840 Yeah, wonderful. 00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:01.280 Well said, absolutely. 00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:09.599 Uh, I do think code enforcement uh can play a great role role as a city manager for all the reasons that you've talked about in this whole thing. 00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:19.039 And um, economic development, finance, police chiefs sometimes become city managers, uh, community development, all these are great departments to draw from as well. 00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:22.320 But code enforcement should have its hat in the ring too. 00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:25.519 And rising through the rings to code, you really do touch a lot of stuff. 00:36:25.760 --> 00:36:35.760 So if I guess maybe good parting words here for the young Sarah Gallagher coming in to uh code enforced, starting out going, gosh, we could go. 00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:36.800 I don't even know what code was. 00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:38.159 I had to look it up in the dictionary. 00:36:38.239 --> 00:36:39.440 Now here we are. 00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:41.760 What speaking right to them? 00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:43.679 What kind of advice would you like to give them? 00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:44.719 Embrace it. 00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:46.639 Learn every bit that you can. 00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:48.079 Be proud of that job. 00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:59.599 You know, I tell the team all the time, and I'm not knocking any other professionals, but if you look at, you know, bank tellers, you look at grocery store workers, you look at school teachers, your community has a ton of them. 00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:07.440 We get to be a part of a very small elite group that is the only group that has the ability to make a huge impact in your community. 00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:13.199 And I strongly believe that I tell the guys this all the time: be proud of your role. 00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:21.119 Um, the sky's the limit, you know, just dig in, enjoy it, appreciate it, love it, and let it open doors for you. 00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:22.079 I love it. 00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:23.519 And that that is so true. 00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:27.519 I think even for, you know, I'll speak for our teammates here at Civica. 00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:31.920 You know, we are all in this stuff top to bottom because we want to make a positive impact. 00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:35.280 It may not always be seen, may not always be appreciated, appreciated. 00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:38.480 Sometimes it might be skewed in the media the opposite way. 00:37:38.559 --> 00:37:39.280 That's incorrect. 00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:44.159 However, we know, we know that what we're doing and our intentions and that we're we're working with good people, doing good things. 00:37:44.400 --> 00:38:09.360 Sarah, I think this has been a great conversation and uh probably the first that I think I've seen where there is a game plan and a path laid out from young Sarah, all the young Sarah's out there, the young Sals out there who are looking to get you know a job and raise their family and make a difference all the way up through uh to leading a city. 00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:11.280 And and by the way, counties too. 00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:12.800 It can happen in any jurisdiction. 00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:15.440 So thank you so much for joining us today. 00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:17.519 Thank you for a great and really insightful conversation. 00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:21.440 So, folks, thank you for joining us here on another True Code Podcast episode. 00:38:21.519 --> 00:38:29.280 You know, remember our goal is to highlight the truth about code enforcement and their job and their goals to protect and improve communities. 00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:30.960 Thank you for listening here today. 00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:37.360 Don't forget to follow us on LinkedIn at True Code Podcast and Instagram at truecode.podcast. 00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:42.079 If you have episode suggestions, please email us at podcastcivicalaw.com. 00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:43.599 And as always, thank you for listening. 00:38:43.760 --> 00:38:45.360 Thank you for doing what you do every day. 00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:46.400 Take care. 00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:51.440 Thank you for joining us on this journey. 00:38:51.519 --> 00:38:57.360 If you enjoyed what you heard, don't forget to subscribe, follow, rate, and review us wherever you're listening right now. 00:38:57.599 --> 00:38:58.800 Until next time.