S4/E5: How Customer Obsession Builds Winning Teams (Mahesh Muralidhar - 1st Head of People Operations at Canva) ၏ စာသားမှတ်တမ်းအပြည့်အစုံ

00:04:17.040 I know what it's like to seek and search for social validation, every single thing, because nobody understands what you're doing. 00:04:17.199 --> 00:04:18.480 Everybody's growing, what are you doing? 00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:25.519 I understand what it means to really understand the foundations of engineering, product, growth through all of those things. 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:27.199 I know what it means to be penniless. 00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:36.959 And on that note, to make sure that some top companies, including Canva and Uber, started using our platform that we built, all I could afford was a three-piece packet of Tintems. 00:04:37.120 --> 00:04:42.480 So I used to go, I went every day for a week outside the Uber office. 00:04:42.560 --> 00:04:48.160 This is 15 years ago in Sydney, and left our sales pitch and a three-piece packet of Tintams. 00:04:48.399 --> 00:04:55.040 And on the last day, the country manager of Uber, when they just launched in Sydney, gave me a call and said, Who are you? 00:04:55.199 --> 00:04:55.839 What do you want? 00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:57.439 And I said, Hey, blah, blah, blah. 00:04:57.519 --> 00:04:58.480 Please use my platform. 00:04:58.639 --> 00:05:00.160 And he said, Okay, we'll give it a crack. 00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:01.279 Please don't come here again. 00:05:01.519 --> 00:05:04.639 So there was like a, you know, like you mentioned as well that you did the MBA. 00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:08.879 I my assumption is that that was before the time you started your startup. 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:13.519 When you do an MBA, you invest a lot in it, you've got maybe a student loan, or don't know how you did it. 00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:18.160 Um, but your expectation, I guess, a lot of people's expectations are that they earn a certain amount. 00:05:18.399 --> 00:05:20.319 Mentally, how did you deal with that? 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:25.519 Uh I when the GFC happened, I I'm fortunate, AJ, I'm not an angry person. 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:27.920 I don't have, I don't have the privilege of anger. 00:05:28.079 --> 00:05:36.560 So when the GFC happened and it was made redundant, I was, I was, I was killing it in in in management, executive management, professional services, recruitment, right? 00:05:36.639 --> 00:05:38.240 I was I was I was rocketing up. 00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:39.839 And then the whole world stopped. 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:47.600 And as I started to understand what happened, and anybody has hasn't watched the big short they should, I was like, whoa, wait a second. 00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:49.040 I thought the world worked this way. 00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:50.480 If I did this, this happened. 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:53.199 What are all what what what is all of this stuff? 00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:55.360 I didn't I didn't understand how the world worked. 00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:58.879 So I was very clear about why I did the MBA. 00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:04.959 I didn't understand how economics was connected to marketing, was connected to accounting, was connected to org structure and all of this stuff. 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:07.680 So I was very clear about why I did it. 00:06:07.839 --> 00:06:08.959 I wanted to understand the levers. 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:14.399 I had some notions of moving into a more complex career. 00:06:14.560 --> 00:06:25.279 So from recruitment, which is fundamentally sales and it's one-dimensional or it's less dimensional, to I had this notion that strategy consulting was going to be more complex and we're gonna discuss cool things. 00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:30.000 And after the NBA, when I got into strategy consulting, I was like, this is kind of this is just the same BS. 00:06:30.240 --> 00:06:31.279 Like, are you kidding me? 00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:34.160 Like there's no real value add going on here, right? 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:37.199 In fact, recruitment from a sales perspective, there was more. 00:06:37.279 --> 00:06:40.560 Like you're actually making a debt that someone has been placed in someone. 00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:47.759 Strategy consulting is the stakeholders and doing a PowerPoint deck, like it's not, which is why then I I decided to be my own startup founder. 00:06:48.079 --> 00:06:53.199 And so you went from there and then you got uh you know somewhat headhaunted by Canva. 00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:54.160 What was it like? 00:06:54.319 --> 00:07:03.199 And I guess uh if you were to look back at it, what would you say were the key learnings in terms of building a team from I guess that size? 00:07:03.519 --> 00:07:04.079 Yeah, for sure. 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:05.519 So I joined when I was 25. 00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:08.480 So connecting the docs backwards, right, and let's be clear. 00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:11.120 So when I joined, we were 25 people who's worth 20 million. 00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:12.800 Today it's 4,000 people worth 40 bill. 00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:18.319 I have had the opportunity to be inside the black box and engine room of one of those TV shows. 00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:22.800 You switch on Uber, you switch on Spotify, or these TV shows. 00:07:22.959 --> 00:07:24.319 So I was in there, right? 00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:26.959 I've I've seen what happens, I know what happens. 00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:34.399 So connecting the dots backwards, there are a few key things I realized that I kind of was like, oh, something special is going on here. 00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:39.199 And one of the biggest things is the founders' incredible levels of intentionality. 00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:47.759 They were so intentional, or a layman's way of saying anal, about this should be this way, this should be this way, this should be this way, this should be this way. 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:48.800 I'll give you an example. 00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:55.600 When a startup grows at the pace that Canva grows, and the technical definition of a startup is something that aims to grow 5% week on week. 00:07:55.680 --> 00:07:58.720 When a

startup grows at that pace and things are selling like hotcakes, right? 00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:00.079 Like everything's breaking. 00:08:00.240 --> 00:08:03.839 People, finance, org structure, investor relations. 00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:06.480 Like it's just fires everywhere. 00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:09.680 But the fires are fine because you're winning. 00:08:09.839 --> 00:08:12.800 Because the customer in the market's like, I want more, I want more, I want more. 00:08:12.879 --> 00:08:13.519 So that's okay. 00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:20.240 So company re-orgs are just like a nearly fortnightly thing because we've got to look at the problem this way now. 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:22.639 We've got to focus on this now, we've got to focus, it's constantly changing. 00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:28.399 So doing one of the reorgs, uh, I was asked to do the re-org, and I did it. 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:31.040 And I spent all weekend on a Sunday afternoon. 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:37.919 So I'd done the re-org and I'd worked out then the final output, which is where everybody's seating was going to change. 00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:41.600 So I I spent all weekend, as I did. 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:46.000 Um, and the plan was for everybody to come in and take this stuff and move it around. 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:46.320 Right? 00:08:46.799 --> 00:08:48.559 Mel walks in on Sunday. 00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:50.399 Mel Limpekins, founder of Canva. 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:53.519 On Sunday on Sunday, Sunday, Sunday, yeah. 00:08:53.679 --> 00:08:54.159 How then? 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:54.720 Right. 00:08:54.960 --> 00:08:56.399 Like the founders of phase one. 00:08:56.639 --> 00:08:58.399 A lot, most of the startups are seven days a week. 00:08:59.360 --> 00:08:59.519 Yep. 00:08:59.679 --> 00:08:59.919 Okay. 00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:01.759 So employees as well. 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:08.159 Like those those that I mean early on, I'd say sub-15. 00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:09.600 Yeah, seven days a week. 00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:11.519 Not engineers, but everybody else. 00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:14.159 Um, this is at true high growth. 00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:20.720 Uh so she walks in and she's like, oh my gosh, she's an incredibly pleasant person, unbelievable competitor. 00:09:20.879 --> 00:09:22.799 I trust Mel to never lose. 00:09:23.039 --> 00:09:25.440 She she goes, so you've organized everything. 00:09:25.519 --> 00:09:27.840 Oh, and we had like 50 or 40, 50 people. 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:30.080 She's like, Oh, we're gonna, we should move everything. 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:31.360 I'm like, what do you mean? 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:34.799 Like, we should move everything, we should move all the laptops and everything. 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:38.639 So they walk in to brand new, like amazing concierge experience. 00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:39.679 I'm like, what? 00:09:40.240 --> 00:09:42.480 Like, that's like five, six hours of work. 00:09:42.639 --> 00:09:43.519 She goes, Yeah, I know. 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:46.159 But Mel, if they just come in, it's so much more efficient. 00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:50.480 If they just come in and move by themselves, no, that's not the way we do it. 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:54.080 We've made sure that everybody comes in and has an incredible experience. 00:09:54.639 --> 00:10:11.200 So for the next four to five hours, myself, Melanie Perkins, Cliff O'Brecht, and Zach Kitschke, who is effectively like the fourth or fifth founder of Canva, if you will, spent the next four or five hours moving every single desk, wiping the table, doing everything. 00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:25.600 That is a founder, a CEO who's intentional, who's very clear about this is the way that my world is going to exist, this is the way things are gonna be, and I'm not gonna make any excuses about it. 00:10:25.759 --> 00:10:26.639 This is my house. 00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:32.159 It's that kind of intentionality that delivers incredible products and incredible growth. 00:10:32.639 --> 00:10:40.559 That particular lesson, I guess, that I've understood from that is that of course, working within the business on the business, and then also treating it like a baby as well. 00:10:40.639 --> 00:10:46.399 And then I guess like you seem to be quite inspired by that too, and also put your hands forward as well. 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:59.759 If you were to speak to other, you know, startup founders or even just managing directors of small companies out there in New Zealand, that in this day and age, particularly with the current financial situation, they do some of them kind of do need to do six to seven days. 00:10:59.840 --> 00:11:05.440 How do you inspire others to also come on the same page too when sentiment out there is rather negative? 00:11:05.759 --> 00:11:06.720 Yeah, that's a good question. 00:11:06.879 --> 00:11:09.279 Look, it helped that I'd been a founder before, right? 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:21.519 And I finally was working for and with two other founders who were as like mission-driven and obviously more mission-driven than I am, right? 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:28.480 And um there was a huge sense of salvation for me in regard to finally. 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:30.320 Well, I was doing my own thing, I was very clear. 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:34.240 Now I'm part of a team and leaders who are like not beating around the bush. 00:11:34.399 --> 00:11:35.840 We're here to get something done. 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:40.960 There's purpose and meaning and clarity to my time and how I spend my time. 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:45.279 So your question was how do founders, entrepreneurs inspire? 00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:55.440 I think one of the biggest gaps that most people make, most entrepreneurs and CEOs, the era, and and I want to be very clear, if you have your own business, right? 00:11:55.759 --> 00:12:01.600 Because you can tell the culture of a company by looking at the CEO's compensation letter. 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:11.039 If it is a mature public

company, you are measured on short-term results, month on month, week on week, annual results. 00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:15.679 Your salary and bonus is measured by those results. 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:21.840 And therefore, the CEO and consequently the executive team is going to be incentivized to maintain that frame. 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:27.759 If you are the founder entrepreneur, this is your life's work and the compensation. 00:12:27.840 --> 00:12:29.279 You have equity, so much equity. 00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:32.320 And not just financial equity, but cultural equity, right? 00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:34.559 This is this is you as an extension of you. 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:36.399 That's a different set of incentives. 00:12:36.559 --> 00:12:40.080 So it's important, and there's no right or wrong, but it's important to understand. 00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:46.559 Like people just behave, and culture just is a secondary effect of the incentives that are there. 00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:52.639 So I think entrepreneurs, CEO entrepreneurs have to acknowledge, hey, what am I looking to achieve here? 00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:53.679 First and foremost. 00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:59.919 And a lot of small, medium-sized enterprise entrepreneurs are usually looking for an exit or something. 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:04.480 So they have some story in their mind around, hey, this is how my life should be. 00:13:04.639 --> 00:13:10.559 So Mel, with Canva, with that scale of imagination, you're looking to actually change the world. 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:12.799 She donated, I think,$12 billion last. 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:17.519 This is completely intentional on her side from when she started Canva. 00:13:17.679 --> 00:13:25.840 She had an image and a vision in regards to, hey, one day I'm going to be able to positively affect problems in society because of the success of Canva. 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:34.960 Small, medium-sized entrepreneur might be, hey, I want enough financial freedom for my family, for my friends, which is probably a five to ten million dollar exit. 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:47.919 Having that story very clear and then articulating, therefore, this goal, therefore this goal, and making sure that your team members' incentives are aligned to that is very powerful. 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:54.799 The mistake or the gap that most entrepreneurs make is they don't make that personal mission. 00:13:55.039 --> 00:14:00.559 Forget about the company, the personal mission, what I'm trying to get out of this, explicit to themselves. 00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:07.360 And I realize they don't do that because they're nervous that if they do that, what if they don't hit it? 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:08.480 But you've got to. 00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:11.440 Because like there's a point with this whole project, right? 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:21.360 Like, okay, so that's the point that therefore this, therefore this, therefore this, therefore, hey guys, need to come in seven days a week because I'm planning a$20 million exit and I want you to have a cut out of it, right? 00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:23.039 Then it it's connected. 00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:24.159 I hope that makes sense. 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:26.159 It does, because there's a clear incentive. 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:27.039 Like correct. 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:29.200 You know, some employees there be like, what am I doing here? 00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:30.960 Like, what the F am I here for? 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:31.600 Correct. 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:34.000 But then when it's clear as to what we're aiming for. 00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:39.519 And then I guess the other part here is kind of rationalizing that pathway to them. 00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:42.000 Because I guess like with startups, it's never linear, right? 00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:47.519 It's usually product fit for the next three months and then all of a sudden capped or something's changing or whatever it may be. 00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:54.559 And that kind of could lead to a lot of confusion within the team because you've got your dev team working on a particular feature and then it becomes dormant. 00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:58.000 And that's sometimes for three years or two years, and it's all over the place. 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:04.399 In in situations like that, I assume Canva may have had some things like that, like Airtaska 2. 00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:13.759 How would you deal, I guess, with team morale and then you know, staying on the same page and aligned with you know the overall mission, which is to reach that particular level? 00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:21.120 Yeah, and it's it's um here my journey with phase one has illuminated things even more for me. 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:23.600 Um phase one is early stage. 00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:30.320 Uh, found a community that I nurtured over the last four or five years in New Zealand. 00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:33.120 There's a fund that's adjacent to it. 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:39.120 85% of the companies that we've invested into and nurtured have raised global institutional venture. 00:15:39.279 --> 00:15:42.080 That conversion rate is better than anything YC has produced. 00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:43.919 So something extraordinary happened. 00:15:44.159 --> 00:15:45.360 I can touch on that later. 00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:46.399 It is important. 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:51.679 Different startup types actually require different levels of irrationality. 00:15:51.919 --> 00:15:58.639 What is the thing that keeps a person more sticky and makes a positive culture and a happy place to work? 00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:00.720 It is if the business is winning. 00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:08.879 And a startup's winning when you have a loved product and you've worked out a strong acquisition rate and then it's just gone, right? 00:16:09.039 --> 00:16:11.600 And then you have really good people who are helping to go. 00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:11.840 Okay. 00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:14.559 But the key thing is

it's got to win, right? 00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:16.960 Wow, I'm a member of the All Blacks. 00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:19.200 Wow, I'm a member of Real Madrid. 00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:21.440 Wow, I'm oh my god, my team's great. 00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:24.320 And I come in and I do work and it delivers results. 00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:29.840 The core piece of why someone comes to work is just so fulfilled. 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:31.200 That is the most important thing. 00:16:31.360 --> 00:16:35.279 Different types of startups take different lengths of time to deliver this. 00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:43.840 A B2B SaaS startup, the likes of Zero, the likes of Employment Hero, Safety Culture, Tracksuit, Halter, CODIS. 00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:52.159 A B2B SaaS product is a lot more easier to get going than a B2C startup. 00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:53.039 Why is that? 00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:58.399 Because a business, unlike a consumer, is a rational construct. 00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:01.600 A business wants to make money, save money, stay out of jail. 00:17:01.759 --> 00:17:10.079 One of those three things in a core function of recruitment, procurement, finance, and then it's one little thing and it's for a certain size, for a certain market. 00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:14.160 Okay, solve this problem, solve it really well with a love product, go. 00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:20.480 And you can build, you so you can maintain a level of, okay, we got this, guys, we got this, we got this, we got to stay in the game. 00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:27.920 It takes about two years after that first funding round to build that love product and just start to go max, right? 00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:37.839 A B2C product, it takes about four to five years because building a loved product for a B2C startup is crazy hard. 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:41.359 Like crazy hard because a consumer is irrational. 00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:43.680 I want to go to the gym, put a chocolate bar in front of me. 00:17:43.759 --> 00:17:45.359 Oh, well, I won't go to the gym anymore. 00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:52.240 And that requires about so for three to four years, the startup founder has to just hold that team together. 00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:56.000 So depending on what is required, right? 00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:58.640 Like it just takes longer with B2C. 00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:00.319 And so you have to invest even more time. 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:05.359 So the likes of Uber, Airbnb, all of these kind of places, the stories are famous. 00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:10.400 It's so much harder to hold that early team together. 00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:16.640 But if you can, then the upside for B2C is way bigger than B2B. 00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:20.880 30% of global GDP is business, 70% of global GDP is consumer. 00:18:21.039 --> 00:18:22.079 Again, I hope that makes sense. 00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:23.039 It does, it does. 00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:25.440 I wonder dive deeper into it. 00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:30.880 So would you consider, I guess,

AirTasker, would you consider it as a B2C or B2B? 00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:32.240 B2C, for sure. 00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:33.359 B2C, right? 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:35.279 And marketplaces are crazy hard. 00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:40.319 Because you've got two, again, you've got to have um supply and then of course demand at the same time, too. 00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:43.359 Yeah, the the one thing is, and it's a spectrum, right? 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:44.640 It's become a spectrum. 00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:50.319 They're not discrete situations anymore, like a consumer in a business, because you have pro users, right? 00:18:50.480 --> 00:19:03.759 Or prosumers, I think they're called, where it's actually one people teams, so kinda like a consumer, but it's they're using the product not like Spotify, but to do it, get a job done. 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:05.279 So that makes it rational. 00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:07.519 So Canva is in that middle spectrum. 00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:09.839 And AirTask is also in that middle spectrum. 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:13.519 Like Spotify, YouTube originally weren't in that middle spectrum. 00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:16.319 So um so there's a bit of a spectrum there. 00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:26.079 So when we go back to, I guess, founders, even managing directors, um, you know, holding their fort uh, you know, either for three years or five years. 00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:34.960 The example that I emailed earlier, like, say for example, you might just have a subdivision consultant company or property development company at the moment that just provides advice. 00:19:35.119 --> 00:19:37.599 And then all of a sudden they tap into AI. 00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:42.559 Won't be specific into it, or I'll get gunshots of how wrong I am with what I'm talking about. 00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:52.640 Let's just say that they've come up with a solution that pretty much automates 80% of it, as in like your drawings, your concepts, your RC, your BC, EPAs, pretty much a lot of it. 00:19:52.720 --> 00:20:05.680 And all of a sudden they're moving from your typical uh 1980s agency or company to I I wouldn't call it software, I'd call it again, AI or something, something. 00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:06.880 I don't know what to call it. 00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:09.359 I mean, I don't even what would you call that? 00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:13.039 That transition, what sort of advice would you have for people like that? 00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:20.240 Because you've been in so many different companies, you've been through also a lot of transitions to, and also brought transition to those companies as well. 00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:25.119 What essentially would you advise to New Zealanders and even Australians that are dealing with this change? 00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:27.119 With the um advance of AI? 00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:55.839 Advance of AI and then also business as well, because there would be, I believe, and I might be wrong, I believe 10, 15 years from now, your companies

that do a lot of manual work today to in order to produce what they need to produce, say, for example, drawings for civil or architecture, whatever it may be, would kind of get sucked up by other companies that embrace AI technology to automate a lot of that, but probably even partner up with the council directly to produce certain things and really speed things up. 00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:58.880 So it might just be that the irrelevant could be that. 00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:05.279 But like if a company is going through that transition, we can even go into a topic as in like you know, the person going through transition to work rules. 00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:05.920 Sure. 00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:07.039 I think there are three things. 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:10.559 One, like I said earlier, what do you want to get out of this? 00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:14.079 And you could argue that there are three swim lanes. 00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:23.119 You would either want personal financial freedom for you and your family, two, you want to make regional level change, three, you want to change the world. 00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:27.759 The property agency that you talked about is very likely swim lane one. 00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:32.319 And it's very important to note that none of the swim lanes are better or worse than the other, right? 00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:34.319 It doesn't make you any cooler, et cetera. 00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:43.920 Like Manley Perkins is not cooler than the entrepreneur who started a recruitment company or a dairy or whatever. 00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:44.960 Like it's not, right? 00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:50.640 Like you respect entrepreneurs for stepping out and having a crack, whoever they are, whatever they're doing. 00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:55.359 But what is cool is being conscious about what do I want to get out of this. 00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:57.680 So say it's at last family. 00:21:58.000 --> 00:21:58.240 Okay. 00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:09.279 You could make it regional level change, but you're looking at an exit listing on the stock exchange or through a merger and acquisition, and you're going to walk away with about five to ten mil. 00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:14.640 Or if you want to set it up as like a New Zealand, Australia thing, maybe it's about 20 to 30 mil. 00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:18.240 The first one is five to seven years of incredible hard work. 00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:21.200 The second one is about seven to ten years of incredible hard work. 00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:24.880 So depending on which story you have in your head about what's my outcome. 00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:30.559 And if you want a more outlier outcome, I would say aim for overseas customers. 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:32.079 Aim for premium customers. 00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:33.359 New Zealand's a small market. 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:42.960 Now, unless you want to take on the New Zealand market completely, but like a property company, okay, like there's a certain limitation, right, in regards to the number of my high margin customers. 00:22:43.119 --> 00:22:44.400 Can I have a crack at Dubai? 00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:46.480 Can I have a crack at a small area in the US? 00:22:46.640 --> 00:23:00.720 Can I have a crack at can I, instead of trying to play a higher value game in New Zealand, can I find customers overseas who have higher value problems and they need the problem solved? 00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:10.480 To identify those customers and address their problems is probably one and a half times the effort required to, you know, get going with the New Zealand customer. 00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:25.279 But once you do that, once you crack the Dubai market, which is probably a cost space of about a year to a year and a half, or two years worth of like, hey, I'm going to pay down two years worth of cost to really understand the market, suddenly you're playing at a higher game, a higher margin play. 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:26.400 So that's number two. 00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:30.319 Go global, play with more higher margin businesses. 00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:39.519 Third thing is if you are not getting working extensively to become AI literate, you are going to get left behind. 00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:40.960 There is no denying this. 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:54.400 So either get on that bandwagon and start training, talking about AI tools, doing all of that, or accept that your business and effectively your skills and experience is going to become less valuable. 00:23:54.559 --> 00:24:00.640 And it's not because jobs are going to go away, it's just that other people are going to be able to do so much more with these tools. 00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:10.880 So then effectively, a value of your skills and experience, just because there are X number of people who know how to use these tools and are comfortable, then your value is going to be diminished. 00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:14.319 So go out of your way to play around with these tools. 00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:23.279 Would you say that like being someone who's very good with, say, for example, all these AI tools, you'd kind of say that they're kind of like a GP, doctor wise. 00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:30.799 And then someone who's very skilled or a lot got a lot of experience with say a certain industry or whatever it may be are specialists with those tools. 00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:35.680 So they shouldn't feel too, you know, too much discomfort with their role and the capability. 00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:43.680 You know, would you say that that might change in the world, you know, in the world too and we kind of need to upskill ourselves even much more heavily? 00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:47.519 Yeah, I think what what's going to happen is not anything new. 00:24:48.000 --> 00:25:00.160 You know, there is uh there is a marketing bell curve around you have your early innovators who try stuff, and then you have, like I think, I can't remember the next segment, and then you have the normal, the big broad, and then

you have the laggards. 00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:05.039 There's a bell curve in regards to how people try new things and and new products. 00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:07.359 And I think the same bell curve will happen. 00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:13.680 The issue is the delta of how much more valuable and powerful you are use these tools. 00:25:13.839 --> 00:25:16.240 The delta is going to be so big, right? 00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:18.240 Those who end up using these tools. 00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:22.319 So my suspicion is amongst doctors, there's a normal bell curve, you know. 00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:25.359 Amongst, I don't know, bakers, there's a normal bell curve. 00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:30.960 That's it's nearly like each person's own risk tolerance to try something new, you know. 00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:43.839 And the issue with this technological curve or step change is the the delta between those who are AI literate and those who are a bit slower. 00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:50.559 Like it's because you're so much more powerful and so much more capable with these tools. 00:25:50.720 --> 00:25:55.200 And it's growing at such a fast rate that you just don't want to get left behind. 00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:55.680 True. 00:25:55.839 --> 00:25:58.160 They were saying Moore's Law, was it every three years? 00:25:58.319 --> 00:25:59.119 It speeds up. 00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:03.039 But I feel like we're in a place where there's no such thing as Moore's Law anymore. 00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:06.160 We're much quicker than Moore's Law itself, which is pretty cool. 00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:07.519 Like that's how quick things are changing. 00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:09.920 And it might be a bit, I guess, you know, kind of hard to fathom. 00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:22.559 One thing I wanted to ask about specifically when it came to, you know, how you mentioned B2B business owners, two or three years to bring it to a certain level of stability or scalable growth, and then you know, four to six years if it's a B2C or whatever it may be. 00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:23.519 Leadership debt. 00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:29.039 How do you maintain, manage, and track that while you are trying to keep everything on track in those periods? 00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:29.599 Wow. 00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:30.559 Good question. 00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:32.559 That's a that's a really good question. 00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:34.960 Okay, so let's define leadership debt. 00:26:35.359 --> 00:26:42.880 So leadership debt is basically a startup founder is getting more and more sophisticated about a whole range of things. 00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:51.920 They have to they've got to learn how to build loved product, how to speak to customers, how to build a powerful customer acquisition channel. 00:26:52.079 --> 00:27:00.799 They've got to learn how to deal with investors, they've got to learn how to deal with all the complex people problems, personaged problems, they've got to understand legal. 00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:01.920 So there's

a lot going on. 00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:03.359 They've got to learn how to communicate. 00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:16.799 So leadership debt happens when you make decisions that while you're evolving as a leader, and even and if you are perfect, you're going to make decisions that require every decision is a compromise. 00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:18.880 Every decision is a compromise. 00:27:19.039 --> 00:27:23.359 So every decision, I'd argue, professionally and in life, debt forms. 00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:27.200 The only way you don't form debt, even if you don't make a decision, debt forms, right? 00:27:28.079 --> 00:27:32.960 So so leadership debt is when I make a decision and it's five steps forward, two steps back. 00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:38.480 The only way you get past this is if you have a valuable business. 00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:40.799 If you have a business and a venture that's winning. 00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:53.759 So if you have something that customers want and the market wants, then that poll earns you the right to keep accruing debt of all sorts, including leadership debt. 00:27:53.920 --> 00:27:57.839 So the single most important thing is hey, what is the point of our existence? 00:27:58.000 --> 00:27:59.680 The point of existence is all the customer problems. 00:27:59.839 --> 00:28:00.960 Do we do that really well? 00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:02.799 Do we do that exceptionally well? 00:28:02.960 --> 00:28:19.759 Like the number of organizations I've seen and been part of that all kinds of surface level sticky tape, clusters, things, programs get rolled out when the core value proposition hasn't been addressed. 00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:26.079 That's actually what's not that we need to go back to what are we doing here, who are we serving, what's the difference we're making. 00:28:26.319 --> 00:28:31.920 Yeah, but like the employment scheme, employment benefit scheme is not gonna change that, you know. 00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:33.200 Right. 00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:37.440 And so you've got to go back to the core. 00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:46.400 And far few, far too many leaders don't do that, don't have that honest conversation around like, are we winning? 00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:49.119 What what's what's the core customer? 00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:51.359 So that's how you deal with leadership. 00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:57.519 Suppose like um in Canva when you you know joined the team and you started participating in people and operations. 00:28:57.680 --> 00:29:00.400 How would you help the founder with this? 00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:06.400 And what advice would you give to other HR leaders out there that are joining the founder today or even you know NMD call with this? 00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:08.720 Yeah, so I I was fortunate, right? 00:29:08.799 --> 00:29:10.480 Like it's unusual in my background. 00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:12.559 And in Canva was interesting. 00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:15.279 We had some early members that were just unusual. 00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:21.920 Alexi Mitko, who was my partner in crime and finance, who as a 24-year-old I was 31 when I joined. 00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:24.640 I I saw him and Cliff do like incredible things. 00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:26.880 I remember like I guess 24, right? 00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:36.319 And um I'd finished my MBA 31, 32, and career, you know, venture and investment and all this is still kind of new to me. 00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:38.480 I thought, you know, those are what investment bankers do. 00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:52.240 And I saw this 24 year old kid and a university dropout, which is clear correct, like close VCs on massive amounts of money and go through all the regulations, stipulations. 00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:54.240 I'm like, what is going on? 00:29:54.640 --> 00:30:03.119 And and it was a kind of environment which pulled people would Who were keen and desired to do extraordinary things. 00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:12.480 But how was so so one of the big pieces that I was able to pull in from a people perspective is I was commercial. 00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:18.319 The point of every part of the organization has to be to deliver value for the customer. 00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:19.119 That's the point. 00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:19.920 That's the point. 00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:21.039 What we're all here for. 00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:25.599 And because I had a career and I had my startup founder and stuff like that, I was like, okay. 00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:28.000 And Alexi in finance got that too. 00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:34.880 It wasn't to build a powerful people function or a powerful finance function. 00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:35.680 The point. 00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:37.920 My point of existence is to make sure. 00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:40.240 Oh, and the people function, where is it scoped? 00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:46.559 In making sure that we have incredible people that are clear about their goals so that we can deliver value to the customers. 00:30:46.799 --> 00:30:48.240 It was never for the function itself. 00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:49.680 It was always to deliver value. 00:30:49.839 --> 00:30:56.000 So then, because you and you have that orientation and clear understanding of, sorry, why are we bringing this person on board? 00:30:56.079 --> 00:31:06.319 It's for this, for this, for this, far few people leaders do not allow themselves or give space for themselves to really own the commerciality of the business, right? 00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:18.400 If you are a people leader, you are actually responsible, usually, for the most expensive and dynamic and powerful thing in the business, which is um people. 00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:19.680 Do you understand that? 00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:20.559 Do you understand? 00:31:20.640 --> 00:31:25.680 Do you look at the salary like that's it's a cost and it's delivering incredible value? 00:31:25.839 --> 00:31:27.440 Do you understand the commerciality of this? 00:31:27.599 --> 00:31:28.559 You don't understand how dynamic.

00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:31.519 Because the founders, that's 100%. 00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:40.559 Like they, they, they get it, but they are not able to meet people leaders who have that orientation. 00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:48.960 Unfortunately, most people leaders, in my experience, come from a much more HR administration, risk management, mitigate risk background. 00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:50.160 Completely understand. 00:31:50.400 --> 00:31:52.880 That's classical from a mature point of view. 00:31:53.119 --> 00:31:55.119 We're in the business of creating value here. 00:31:55.279 --> 00:31:55.599 Okay. 00:31:55.759 --> 00:32:04.720 So taking that ownership, and then if you can be a partner in crime to the founders around, hey, people just people are complex things, right? 00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:12.720 So in behavioral economics, there is Daniel Kahneman as a Nobel Prize winner, put forward the notion of type one, type two thinking, right? 00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:16.960 That all human beings, when they make a decision, basically falter into two types of thinking. 00:32:17.119 --> 00:32:18.960 Type one is fight or flight thinking. 00:32:19.119 --> 00:32:20.960 Something scary comes at me, bam. 00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:24.240 Type two thinking is hey, let's get the Excel sheet out, let's think through it slowly. 00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:30.160 Unfortunately, most human beings, when they make thinking, give people decisions, they use type one. 00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:33.200 I see that person, oh, I think, yeah, we're gonna be a great match. 00:32:33.279 --> 00:32:34.799 Oh, I don't think this person's a good fit. 00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:39.440 This person, one of the terms I really detest is this person's not a cultural fit. 00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:40.559 What does that even mean? 00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:42.079 Like, do you know your culture inside out? 00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:42.880 Do you have a framework? 00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:43.759 Did you make an assessment? 00:32:43.839 --> 00:32:45.359 Do you know what this person's culture is? 00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:46.160 What is culture? 00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:47.759 Like, what kind of assessment did you make? 00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:49.039 No, they're not a cultural fit. 00:32:49.119 --> 00:32:49.279 Okay. 00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:50.960 You mean you don't like the person? 00:32:51.119 --> 00:32:51.519 Sure. 00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:52.319 No problem. 00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:53.920 It's a good reason not to hire someone. 00:32:54.079 --> 00:32:55.119 Don't say cultural fit. 00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:56.640 Like, what kind of complex thing is that? 00:32:56.880 --> 00:33:02.799 So if you can be a partner in crime to founders around, hey, let's just slow down on this people decision. 00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:09.359 Let's write a strategy document about why this person's not working, what the context is, what happened, why? 00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:11.039 This, this, this. 00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:12.400 Slow it down. 00:33:12.559 -->

00:33:16.400 That's nearly the most powerful thing that a people leader can do. 00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:16.799 Right. 00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:18.000 So two things. 00:33:18.160 --> 00:33:19.359 One, what are we here to do? 00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:20.240 What are the outcomes? 00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:22.480 Commercial mission outcomes we're looking at achieve. 00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:25.759 How does that connect to talent acquisition team engagement and vibe? 00:33:25.839 --> 00:33:28.960 The three verticals in the people space, in my opinion. 00:33:29.119 --> 00:33:39.519 And then, okay, in each of those verticals, how do we make sure that there is type two thinking happening where we're, you know, there is we're going through this in a very intentional way. 00:33:39.680 --> 00:33:40.480 I'll do the work. 00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:48.640 And I've built my the teams that I've built, and I'm still very proud of that early core team in Canva is still there. 00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:51.680 The people team is still there, delivering incredible value. 00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:57.200 The first person I hired as a recruiter in Manila is now the country manager of Canada Manila. 00:33:57.440 --> 00:34:06.559 And I I I had the opportunity to coach and mentor them and inculcate so much of this thinking and so forth. 00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:11.519 Um so I'm very proud of how those frameworks and those that thinking has worked out. 00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:14.559 You mentioned Manila, which is obviously another country. 00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:22.559 From a lot of your posts, I see you know push for globalization in terms of tapping into global tenant, global customers, as clubs as we can. 00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:28.480 I guess like uh, you know, working with people in different cultures and societies where things are very different over there. 00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:34.559 What sort of tips would you give to other founders, child managers, or just teams out there, you know? 00:34:34.880 --> 00:34:49.280 Yeah, look, I think you need to start off from a place of humility that it's very easy, especially from a Western perspective, and once education kicks in, and supposedly the Enlightenment in the 1800s in Europe occurred. 00:34:50.320 --> 00:35:03.039 That this notion of hey, we have science and we we we we we we use the scientific process to break things down, and um that is the best way, and it arguably it is the best way, right? 00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:12.639 But other cultures look at problems differently, they are in different stages of maturity, they are in different geographies, they have different political environments. 00:35:12.800 --> 00:35:14.079 Um I'll give you an example. 00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:24.000 So we were rolling out our HR policy in Canva, and Australia is a progressive country, and so Canva is a highly progressive company. 00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:29.360 We wanted to make sure that parental leave allowed for same-sex relationships. 00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:40.079 And I was just about to roll out to other countries, and fortunately I just checked with the other countries that hey, one of the countries that we're rolling out to, hey, we have this clause. 00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:40.800 What do you think? 00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:49.519 And I was fortunate that I had enough about me to just like this seems to be this is a delicate thing, and let me just check how this would go down, right? 00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:56.159 And then listen to them and and meet people where they're at, maybe more advanced, maybe less advanced, whatever it is. 00:35:56.400 --> 00:35:59.280 Meet a culture and a people where they're at. 00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:08.239 So I think it's staying humble and open to different cultures and different frames of reference without coming from a top-down perspective. 00:36:08.480 --> 00:36:09.519 That goes a long way. 00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:23.599 Understanding that people look at hierarchy, communication styles, compensation, relationships at work, as in professional relationships at work, they perceive the uh hierarchy of where work kicks in differently. 00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:25.599 All of these things are different, right? 00:36:25.760 --> 00:36:42.000 And the ideal thing is to identify a leader or a group of leaders in the overseas country who are powerful bridges across cultures, and so that they understand, hey, this is the culture we have, say in Canvas at Tascos. 00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:45.679 Yeah, and this is the intention of the culture. 00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:56.559 How do we, for these reasons, how do we translate that intentionality and that output and behavior in the country that you're leading? 00:36:56.719 --> 00:37:03.280 And the way that happens is by flying them over, spending time, going for walks, breakfasts, etc. 00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:06.719 Do you understand me and us and who we are? 00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:08.559 And you're part of us, great. 00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:09.440 You're bought in. 00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:14.159 Okay, go and extend, and let's have an open channel to keep learning. 00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:15.760 And you know what would be even cooler? 00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:23.039 If I came over too, so that when you tell me, hey, this is how this needs to look in wherever, I'm like, ah, yeah, I get you. 00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:23.760 I understand. 00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:24.800 Right, right. 00:37:25.119 --> 00:37:35.199 Essentially, it's it's going deeper, actually investing your time, effort, uh, into learning more about them, aligning with them, and putting yourself in their shoes too. 00:37:35.519 --> 00:37:45.679 GFC is something I remembered you mentioned, and we kind of call today something similar to it, because there's a recession, um, technically, uh in some places. 00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:52.079 Uh, and so what I've observed, it's just an observation, so it might not be entirely true. 00:37:52.320 --> 00:38:04.719 But I feel like a lot of companies

during COVID when there was no recession during that particular time, companies weren't really focused on return on investment, rather growth at all at all cost. 00:38:05.360 --> 00:38:13.119 And now they're a lot more commercially driven, which has led to layoffs, which has led to tougher decisions when it comes to hiring. 00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:22.559 I guess when it comes to lessons you may have learned from GFC, any similarities, because we're in a place where there's a massive amount of uncertainty. 00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:27.440 You've got Trump there who could smash a tariff, you've got a potential war that could be happening XYZ. 00:38:27.519 --> 00:38:34.320 And then you look at the US dollar right now, it's one NZD is about 66, which is the lowest in how long? 00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:36.559 Ten years ago, it was 80 something. 00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:43.760 So there's a lot of uncertainty in a lot of places for probably a lot of founders and a lot of you know uh you know company owners too. 00:38:44.000 --> 00:39:02.400 So if you were to kind of like compare the two and give any advice for people that are either going through layoffs or having to do it and reluctantly having to do it because commercial, like you mentioned, at the end of the day, a business is supposed to provide value to the end user at the end of the day, whatever maybe group of end users, whatever it may be. 00:39:02.559 --> 00:39:04.320 How would you guide them to go through all that? 00:39:04.639 --> 00:39:06.320 Yeah, look, it's a really good question. 00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:15.039 I've been in this situation before where it's just like we've spent, we've blown money and and and then create what it runway so short. 00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:16.159 Uh it goes back. 00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:20.639 The the way to prevent it is to have founders who are customer and problem focused. 00:39:20.719 --> 00:39:26.320 And all the phase one founders, we it was it was merely attrition. 00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:39.039 If you didn't believe in that, you just couldn't be, you just you would struggle to be part of phase one community, which is the reason why they're winning so much is because they all know that salvation for them is found in the customer. 00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:45.519 That's that's the only person who's gonna really truly solve your problems because that's the point of existence. 00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:56.000 So I'd say that if if you have a venture or a startup that isn't where the founders aren't customer problem obsessed, you're probably gonna have an issue. 00:39:56.159 --> 00:39:58.159 Like there's like no ways around this. 00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:05.519 Like you're nearly better off if you're looking at the business or you're joining the business, like just take a win and get out. 00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:11.199 Because you're not like you're gonna make decisions that aren't relevant to the customer and market. 00:40:11.679 --> 00:40:17.760 So every single human being in my well, the vast majority of human beings want to empire build. 00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:18.800 What do I mean by that? 00:40:18.880 --> 00:40:20.800 Well, if I have one more of this, I'll be better. 00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:22.000 If I have one more of this, better. 00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:23.519 If I have two more people, I'll be better. 00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:25.599 If I'll just but there's this work needs to be done. 00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:26.320 That works needs to be. 00:40:26.480 --> 00:40:31.119 I feel I just feel more and more secure with this five more people in design. 00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:34.239 I feel more secure if six more people are in marketing. 00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:36.719 I feel more secure if we have that much more engineers. 00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:38.559 So two things. 00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:42.400 If you have founders, a customer problem obsessed and market obsessed. 00:40:42.639 --> 00:40:49.119 If they're not, okay, it's nearly binary in regards to how things are gonna work out, in my opinion, in my experience. 00:40:49.360 --> 00:40:52.480 But people, if you have founders who aren't, win, get out. 00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:54.719 Like get out, like get the win, get out. 00:40:54.800 --> 00:41:02.880 Because you can't actually build something that kind of works and kind of love for a certain period of time and it just kind of surges for a bit, but it's hard to keep sustaining it. 00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:07.360 Like Mel and Cliff, Mel is customer and problem obsessed. 00:41:08.320 --> 00:41:12.079 She is she will keep solving problems, right? 00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:14.079 She's desperate to keep delivering. 00:41:14.320 --> 00:41:17.599 So the second point is everybody wants to empire build. 00:41:17.760 --> 00:41:20.079 Every person, every leader, every manager, right? 00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:22.559 Not everyone, but let's assume they want to. 00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:23.920 So just check that. 00:41:24.079 --> 00:41:35.280 And as you scale and become bigger, probably only 20% of your venture at any given point is truly creating value, and 80% is supporting it, and it's a little bit of fluff. 00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:37.119 And that's just the way it's going to be. 00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:40.960 So cultivating a culture of leanness is very powerful. 00:41:41.119 --> 00:41:41.760 I'd say, yeah. 00:41:41.920 --> 00:41:43.360 So just those two things. 00:41:43.519 --> 00:41:46.320 Um, and this is one huge advantage for New Zealand. 00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:52.639 New Zealand businesses, naturally, because we're an island nation, are culturally lined up to be lean. 00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:58.400 The issue with that initial orientation is it means we also aren't we can take big bets. 00:41:58.559 --> 00:42:06.480 So the ideal circumstance is so I back Kiwi founders who end up in the US playing a global game because oh wow, big market. 00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:07.440 Oh, we're lean. 00:42:07.599 --> 00:42:08.000 Amazing. 00:42:08.239 -->

00:42:09.679 Would you just opinion? 00:42:09.760 --> 00:42:11.039 And it's totally off topic. 00:42:11.119 --> 00:42:21.840 There's America, which is, again, like a market which has got a decent salary, but let's just say you've got markets like India, China, Indonesia, where a certain group have got a decent median salary. 00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:28.000 If we were to target that and try and understand their customers, what sort of advice would you give to founders out there? 00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:29.199 Yeah, good question. 00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:34.000 You either have to go there or you need a senior leader or partner from that country. 00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:35.199 That's pretty simple. 00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:36.639 Like it's one of those two things. 00:42:36.880 --> 00:42:44.800 You don't understand a country's and a culture's priorities until you spend time with them and you go. 00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:46.320 Like I remember this. 00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:58.639 So during my NBA uh class, you'd have the Germans and the northern Europeans, Scandinavians, they would come five to ten minutes early for every meeting. 00:42:58.719 --> 00:43:05.760 And you'd have people from tropical environments like India and other places come to a meeting three to five minutes late. 00:43:05.920 --> 00:43:08.079 And they would always argue, right? 00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:11.920 Because the the Europeans would be like, you don't value me. 00:43:12.079 --> 00:43:13.519 Like, you don't value my time. 00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:17.199 And the Indians would be like, like, you don't value me. 00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:18.639 Uh don't we have a relationship? 00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:20.480 Why are you making this such a big deal? 00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:27.760 And I realized when I actually did a stint in Mumbai for six months, Mumbai chewed me up and spit me out. 00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:33.679 Okay, I was like, okay, I'm not Indian and I don't know how like I have some I have strong cultural values, but like far out, man. 00:43:33.920 --> 00:43:36.079 Like, I do not understand how this thing works. 00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:38.480 You can't get to anywhere on time in India. 00:43:38.639 --> 00:43:39.360 You can't. 00:43:39.519 --> 00:43:40.559 You just can't. 00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:44.079 Like, there's monsoons, there's potholes, there's the infrastructure's crap. 00:43:44.159 --> 00:43:51.280 I was like, this is where people are late because like they are like behaviorally, they're like, we can't get to anywhere on time. 00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:55.840 So as long as I know you and you know me and we know each other, and like I got you, right? 00:43:56.079 --> 00:44:07.039 While in temperate climates in Europe where it's discreet for whatever reason, because of weather, etc., good roads have been built, resources you can get to everywhere out. 00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:08.800 There is no reason. 00:44:08.960 --> 00:44:13.440 And in fact, the weather's pretty crappy, so I want to make sure

of whatever time I have. 00:44:13.599 --> 00:44:15.599 I don't want to, I don't want to fool around with this. 00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:21.920 We make a meeting, so my time, I have enough sunlight or thing with my family or whatever it is, it's precious. 00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:27.360 So, and you don't understand that until you spend time, you're like, that's true. 00:44:27.599 --> 00:44:29.840 This is why you're behaving this way, right? 00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:36.320 It's not a surface level judgment, it's a deeper level of understanding of why you're behaving this way. 00:44:36.639 --> 00:44:42.880 Makes a lot of sense as to why you should be in the place, again, aligning with your customers, stepping to their footsteps. 00:44:43.039 --> 00:44:49.679 But one thing I wanted to tap into, which would, you know, uh a level of product is I assume something which is a strong product market fit. 00:44:49.840 --> 00:44:51.440 Throughout the years, things change. 00:44:51.599 --> 00:44:53.360 It might be a level of product today. 00:44:53.599 --> 00:45:02.960 Maybe the customers might not exist at all two years from now, three years from now, completely abolished because it's probably, you know, trying to think of an example. 00:45:03.039 --> 00:45:06.480 I'm not able to think of an example right now, but I think you kind of get my point. 00:45:06.639 --> 00:45:09.679 What do you suggest companies to do at that particular time? 00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:19.679 And then at the same time, the founder kind of has to go and pitch not to new customers, or maybe any product to the same customers, but also to their team as well, to get that confidence back. 00:45:20.079 --> 00:45:22.639 Hey, we're building something and there there is alignment. 00:45:22.800 --> 00:45:24.719 What kind of suggestions would you have for that? 00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:26.719 Yeah, uh, I've mentioned this. 00:45:26.800 --> 00:45:32.079 So I don't make judgments on this customer is worth that, that customer is worth that. 00:45:32.239 --> 00:45:35.280 I make an assessment if a founder is customer obsessed. 00:45:35.519 --> 00:45:45.360 Do they show behavior of customer obsession when they could pick and choose between where they spent their time, do they want to go spend time with the customer and listen to their problems, solve their problems? 00:45:45.599 --> 00:46:03.199 Because once you pick up that behavior, and once you trust that that is the most powerful orientation as a leader you can have culturally, whether the way you talk, the way you act, the way you behave, the way you put your resources, it is so that we can do a better job for the customer. 00:46:03.440 --> 00:46:07.760 Once an a leader has built that orientation, I trust that. 00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:19.119 So it doesn't matter if the customer changes, it doesn't matter if the customer transforms, because their framework, internal framework, is understand a customer, like obsess about a customer. 00:46:19.360 --> 00:46:20.400 Okay, customers change. 00:46:20.480 --> 00:46:21.199 Okay, fine. 00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:25.280 I've got to put in a year and a half, two years on the choir, maybe not winning. 00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:28.000 If I spend time, I truly believe that. 00:46:28.480 --> 00:46:44.079 In in everything I do, like the only thing that I trust, not the only thing, the thing that I trust and that I'm willing to build something on, whether it be in the private sector or in the public sector and the political pieces, what do what do people want? 00:46:44.239 --> 00:46:45.920 Like understand that foundation. 00:46:46.079 --> 00:46:48.719 Do you have a rock solid foundation on that? 00:46:48.960 --> 00:46:50.559 Then okay, that's good. 00:46:50.719 --> 00:46:55.840 Because say things change, I don't go make a change here, I go make a change here in my connections. 00:46:56.559 --> 00:46:58.639 You need to go find another customer, go find another customer. 00:46:58.719 --> 00:47:00.480 Oh, but we don't know that it's gonna take two years. 00:47:00.639 --> 00:47:01.840 Okay, it's gonna take two years. 00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:02.480 Makes sense. 00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:14.000 And then I I guess like when it comes to like still the employees, like, say, for example, your engineers and um, you know, probably your product managers, marketing managers too, because you're changing direction when you change your set of ICPs. 00:47:14.159 --> 00:47:17.119 So when that's done, there's a bit of chaos at that particular time. 00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:29.280 So how do you calm the storm, even though the founder might have strong conviction and they believe wholeheartedly because they've, again, they've had the one-on-ones with customers, they've also gone through their shoes and really understand it left center according to them. 00:47:29.440 --> 00:47:38.159 But then you've also got to, you know, sell it to your team as well and sort of get them in alignment as well, instead of just pitching, but rather, you know, bring them to be a part of it. 00:47:38.320 --> 00:47:45.840 Because you mentioned two years, two years of probably no wins, but rather development of what it may be for that particular time. 00:47:46.079 --> 00:47:49.360 How how do you keep that team in alignment? 00:47:49.760 --> 00:47:51.760 Not alignment, but how are you gonna keep the team together? 00:47:51.840 --> 00:47:52.000 Right? 00:47:52.320 --> 00:47:53.039 That's what's wrong, yeah. 00:47:53.119 --> 00:47:53.280 Yep. 00:47:53.440 --> 00:47:53.679 Yeah. 00:47:53.920 --> 00:47:55.440 You're not, you're not going to. 00:47:55.679 --> 00:48:02.719 Unless like Elon Musk can, Steve Jobs could have, Mark Zuckerberg can, Melanie Perkins can, because they have a track record. 00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:09.199 Peter Beck can, like when he says something and he says something a little bit different, and he gets he gets it done. 00:48:09.360 --> 00:48:10.000 He delivers. 00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:11.840 Okay,

I'll take a bet on that. 00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:14.000 If you don't have that, you're gonna lose people. 00:48:14.239 --> 00:48:23.039 And that's just the way it is, because it is a precious privilege to ask people, team members, to trust their lives with you. 00:48:23.199 --> 00:48:27.920 And different people have different constraints, and not everybody's gonna be able to do that. 00:48:28.079 --> 00:48:31.599 I've got a mortgage to pay, I've got this, I've got kids, I've got that one, right? 00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:35.920 And I can't, I can't, I can't take this risk. 00:48:36.159 --> 00:48:38.559 There's an opportunity cost in regards to what I'm doing. 00:48:38.639 --> 00:48:39.280 How do I know? 00:48:39.440 --> 00:48:41.760 You communicate extremely well. 00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:44.880 You understand that you can never communicate enough. 00:48:45.039 --> 00:48:48.159 That is a truism that people are gonna misunderstand. 00:48:48.320 --> 00:48:55.199 You make sure that you're super clear and you have high conviction, and that what you say, you say you'll do, you follow through. 00:48:55.280 --> 00:48:58.239 And even then, there are many things you're not gonna be able to follow through. 00:48:58.320 --> 00:49:03.679 And when you're not able to follow through, you own it, you apologize, you can't do it too much, but it'll happen. 00:49:03.760 --> 00:49:08.880 And even after doing all of that, people are like, hey man, like, nah, I can't, like, can't. 00:49:09.039 --> 00:49:12.480 So you're gonna lose people, and then you're gonna have to build back up from ground zero. 00:49:12.719 --> 00:49:17.840 Yeah, I assume accepting that and going with the flow is probably the best, the best way. 00:49:18.239 --> 00:49:18.880 Yeah, yeah. 00:49:18.960 --> 00:49:28.480 And and obviously you can mitigate this significantly with clarity, conviction, and incredible levels of communication. 00:49:28.719 --> 00:49:29.679 And you have to. 00:49:29.840 --> 00:49:30.400 You have to. 00:49:30.559 --> 00:49:34.320 It is the least these team members who are following you deserve. 00:49:34.480 --> 00:49:36.880 But the truth is, there'll be many who'll be like, no. 00:49:37.039 --> 00:49:39.280 And in many ways, that's not a bad thing. 00:49:39.440 --> 00:49:43.599 Because then those who carry on with you, they have an irrational connection. 00:49:43.760 --> 00:49:46.400 They're able to take the changes even more. 00:49:47.119 --> 00:49:48.000 Makes a lot of sense. 00:49:48.159 --> 00:49:59.199 And I guess when it comes to slightly bigger companies, like you know, with with an employee count, I guess, of 40, 30 less, you might be able to know everyone one-to-one as a founder or all that. 00:49:59.280 --> 00:50:05.760 But slightly larger companies, like, say, for example, how you took, you know, a tasker from its count to 200. 00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:19.760 In a situation like that, when you're at that level and you're needing to do a change, suppose not big, but it does require, um, you know, not require, but rather gives the illusion that there is a big change happening and the entire company's changing. 00:50:19.920 --> 00:50:25.519 In a situation like that, what recommendations would you have for the entire team, not just the founder? 00:50:25.840 --> 00:50:30.960 Look, if you join a high-growth startup, and people are more mature about this, they're definitely mature about this in the US. 00:50:31.199 --> 00:50:34.400 Certainly they they have more maturity in New Zealand's a few steps back. 00:50:34.559 --> 00:50:38.000 A startup's something that integral 5% can look changes part of the game. 00:50:38.159 --> 00:50:39.199 And I think so. 00:50:39.280 --> 00:50:42.320 One when more and more people in the market get that, sure. 00:50:42.559 --> 00:50:44.639 Why why why is that kind of change okay? 00:50:44.800 --> 00:50:45.840 Because you're gonna grow, right? 00:50:45.920 --> 00:50:47.840 You're gonna try things, you're gonna experiment, you're gonna learn. 00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:57.039 So you're compromising a level of stability, not stability, a bit a a level of status quoness to for growth. 00:50:57.280 --> 00:50:57.599 Right. 00:50:58.400 --> 00:51:00.960 Um, so it's one, it's that lesson. 00:51:01.039 --> 00:51:03.519 Two leaders communicating, hey, things are gonna change. 00:51:03.599 --> 00:51:05.840 Things are gonna break, things are gonna especially early on. 00:51:06.079 --> 00:51:07.840 The more mature it is, the less things change. 00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:11.440 Let's less more, more, more, more anti-fragile a businesses. 00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:16.400 Um, and then people should join startups because they want to grow and learn. 00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:18.960 If you don't want that, then don't. 00:51:19.360 --> 00:51:20.159 And there's nothing wrong. 00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:22.000 You're not a better person, you're a worse person. 00:51:22.079 --> 00:51:22.719 No, none of that. 00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:29.679 Like if if for you you don't want to take those kind of risks and have that kind of volatility in your life, don't. 00:51:29.840 --> 00:51:34.239 Uh uh a job at BNZ is great, perfect, it's a good life, etc. 00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:36.880 Being part of Canva and AirTask and all these other things. 00:51:36.960 --> 00:51:37.679 It's hectic. 00:51:37.840 --> 00:51:38.159 Right. 00:51:38.320 --> 00:51:43.039 And I have definitely paid a price for it, but it's conscious. 00:51:43.119 --> 00:51:47.760 And I've learned and I've grown and I understand how things work because of the experiences that I have. 00:51:48.079 --> 00:51:54.400 When you say it's conscious, I guess the reason why I want to bring it up is suppose we've got other people that want to join startups too. 00:51:54.559 --> 00:52:12.639 And sometimes they misinterpret it because they watch a movie or they hear about Silicon Valley where there's like awesome rooms and all that, and everyone's having a lot of fun and it's awesome

culture, but then there's also, you know, a lot of negativity at times, and then sometimes times where you need to just pull it together, or you know, things are all over the place. 00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:18.159 When you said you consciously understood, what sort of advice would you give to those employees that are taking a punt on a startup? 00:52:18.400 --> 00:52:24.960 I mean, i i hopefully a theme that's been consistent through this conversation is grappling with your why. 00:52:25.119 --> 00:52:29.679 It's very hard as university students and and mentor students and young people. 00:52:29.920 --> 00:52:33.280 And it's definitely a challenge to grapple with your why. 00:52:33.440 --> 00:52:42.239 And the paradoxical thing is that the more optionality and resource you have around you, the less you have to grapple with your why. 00:52:42.480 --> 00:52:49.519 When you become very clear about what it is you're about and what you're trying to achieve when you don't have resources. 00:52:49.760 --> 00:52:52.320 Because I've got X amount of resources, I've got one shot. 00:52:52.480 --> 00:52:53.760 I have to be super clear. 00:52:54.000 --> 00:53:11.440 I would urge any person joining a startup to have gone through some story in their lives where leanness and significant constraints and a lack of optionality has occurred because that allows like internal clarity. 00:53:11.840 --> 00:53:13.039 That's what I'm here to achieve. 00:53:13.199 --> 00:53:18.719 One of the, like I said, paradoxical things of people who are highly skilled, highly educated is they have optionality. 00:53:18.880 --> 00:53:24.159 And optionality is a surefire way of optionality distracts from clarity. 00:53:24.800 --> 00:53:25.119 Do I do this? 00:53:25.199 --> 00:53:25.599 Do I do this? 00:53:25.840 --> 00:53:26.320 No, no, no. 00:53:27.519 --> 00:53:28.000 What do you want? 00:53:28.159 --> 00:53:29.199 Oh, I don't know what I want. 00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:30.960 Well, why don't you form a hypothesis? 00:53:31.360 --> 00:53:32.000 But I could do this. 00:53:32.079 --> 00:53:32.719 No, no, no, no. 00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:33.679 Just no, no. 00:53:33.920 --> 00:53:35.440 It's all gonna end at some point. 00:53:36.079 --> 00:53:37.840 70-80, what's the story? 00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:38.079 Okay. 00:53:39.280 --> 00:53:39.840 What's the story? 00:53:40.000 --> 00:53:41.039 Okay, what's the story? 00:53:41.199 --> 00:53:42.000 What's the story? 00:53:42.239 --> 00:53:45.039 Have a hypothesis around this. 00:53:45.360 --> 00:53:46.079 Makes a lot of sense. 00:53:46.320 --> 00:53:46.800 Certainly does. 00:53:46.880 --> 00:53:57.199 And like you mentioned, there's some people who want a certain exit or want to earn a certain amount of money, but then when you ask them why do you want to earn that certain amount of money, it's to have a certain lifestyle or be somewhere. 00:53:57.280 --> 00:53:57.840 That why? 00:53:57.920 --> 00:53:59.280 Again, makes a lot of sense. 00:53:59.519 --> 00:54:02.880 Would you it's it's probably gonna be a silly question, but I'll ask anyway. 00:54:02.960 --> 00:54:04.559 The so-called culture-fit interviews. 00:54:04.719 --> 00:54:10.800 Would you previously can other companies, even suggest other companies as well, to ask that question? 00:54:10.960 --> 00:54:11.840 What's your why? 00:54:12.159 --> 00:54:17.440 No, I I mean I don't I definitely don't ask it to form an assessment on their why. 00:54:17.599 --> 00:54:19.519 I ask it yeah, it's a good point. 00:54:19.679 --> 00:54:23.519 I ask it seeking whether you're grappling with it. 00:54:23.599 --> 00:54:25.599 And if you're grappling with it, that's kind of good enough. 00:54:26.079 --> 00:54:26.960 That makes a lot of sense. 00:54:27.119 --> 00:54:32.000 Um so you're talking about phase one, which you started um a couple of years ago. 00:54:32.159 --> 00:54:47.360 You know, before we end this podcast, I'd love to learn a little bit more about it, and I guess like things you've learned, you know, building that community, investing in startups and all that, and you know, what you think other New Zealand businesses out there could sort of entail and also do within their companies. 00:54:47.599 --> 00:54:47.840 Yeah. 00:54:48.079 --> 00:54:50.000 A phase one was starting in the living room. 00:54:50.159 --> 00:54:52.960 Like many things I do, I like grassroots. 00:54:53.039 --> 00:54:55.519 I don't go top down, I go bottom up. 00:54:56.079 --> 00:54:57.519 Because I trust bottom-up. 00:54:58.480 --> 00:55:03.519 Um, in a living room, I used to get a whole bunch of founders together and just give them advice and guidance and support. 00:55:03.599 --> 00:55:05.679 And and I did it for free for five years. 00:55:05.840 --> 00:55:18.559 And around these principles of customer obsession and market obsession above everything else, it nearly all I did was, hey guys, I kinda know how to help you out with all the problems you're facing, but the one thing, go to the customer. 00:55:18.800 --> 00:55:19.679 Mahesh, blah blah blah blah. 00:55:19.760 --> 00:55:20.480 No, no, no, customer. 00:55:20.559 --> 00:55:23.119 Mahesh, what about this no no no no no no customer? 00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:23.519 Right. 00:55:23.679 --> 00:55:25.199 That's pretty much all I did. 00:55:25.519 --> 00:55:37.920 And I I I think because it I was very clear about my why and what I was doing this for, it pulled together founders who were up for a certain level of growth and success. 00:55:38.079 --> 00:55:41.840 And then that community just pulled in other people of that community. 00:55:41.920 --> 00:55:44.320 So I was very clear from day one why I was doing it. 00:55:44.400 --> 00:55:48.320 I've been on public record saying I expect six unicorns to come from phase one. 00:55:48.480 --> 00:55:49.440 And I absolutely do. 00:55:49.599 --> 00:55:53.360 People are starting to be conscious about the success of the phase one community. 00:55:53.519 --> 00:56:02.079 But in about, I'd say two, three years, my hope and my expectation is that there will be a multitude of articles talking about wait, what what happened? 00:56:02.239 --> 00:56:06.320 What is what what is this like thing that has delivered so much growth? 00:56:06.559 --> 00:56:17.119 You've got to be US first if you want to build a powerful startup or any large one single cohesive market like China idea, US legislation and legalities, legalities rather, work. 00:56:17.280 --> 00:56:22.719 Um, US first is best, customer obsessed, problem obsessed, is the founder grappling with their why? 00:56:22.880 --> 00:56:29.119 Do they understand that the investor and VC game is a completely separate game that requires its own like year and a half of tutelage? 00:56:29.280 --> 00:56:29.440 Yeah. 00:56:29.599 --> 00:56:35.920 If you do those things and you're willing to spend two to three, two years grinding to really understand the customer. 00:56:36.079 --> 00:56:36.239 Okay. 00:56:36.480 --> 00:56:37.039 Good to go. 00:56:37.280 --> 00:56:37.599 Right. 00:56:37.840 --> 00:56:38.320 Right. 00:56:38.559 --> 00:56:40.079 No, that sounds awesome. 00:56:40.239 --> 00:56:47.440 And uh I guess the best way to solve economy crisis is to generate more jobs, and that's done by again exporting ourselves. 00:56:47.599 --> 00:56:49.760 We don't want to export humans, we want to export value. 00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:50.880 That's exactly right. 00:56:51.039 --> 00:56:52.800 I uh I couldn't have said it better. 00:56:52.960 --> 00:56:54.639 But that was the point of all of this. 00:56:54.800 --> 00:56:58.239 I mean, to be fair, when I started it, I didn't know if it would work. 00:56:58.320 --> 00:57:04.239 Like, you know, I had my stories and experience and first principles that I picked up as a founder, Canva, air task, all of this stuff. 00:57:04.320 --> 00:57:05.519 So I'm like connecting the dots. 00:57:05.599 --> 00:57:07.760 I'm like, I think this is what I should do. 00:57:07.920 --> 00:57:10.800 So I'm glad that my hypothesis has worked out. 00:57:10.960 --> 00:57:11.440 It's awesome. 00:57:11.679 --> 00:57:14.079 Ash, thank you so much for coming onto the podcast. 00:57:14.159 --> 00:57:15.599 Um, letting me pick your brain. 00:57:15.920 --> 00:57:17.039 Thank you so much for the opportunity.